Depressing setback with my wife . . . .

[Anne2345]

To date, and throughout my "journey," I have been honest with my wife every step of the way. I have kept her informed about what I am doing, why I am doing it, who I am, and what I believe I need to do.

I have been on HRT coming up on four months now. My wife even met with my gender therapist one on one for a number of hours prior to me receiving my letter.

Our relationship, in fact, since I made the decision to pursue HRT, has become the best it has been in a long time. Prior to this decision, I had been depressed, irritable, and suffering from the pain of dysphoria. I was miserable to be around. I couldn't sleep. I was disengaged. I had no energy. I was not productive. I hated myself. And I cared about little about anything.

All of that, however, began to turn around when I made the affirmative decision for myself to seek out HRT. Even better, my wife was on board. We discussed it at length and in great detail. I thought she understood. We both agreed that we want to make our marriage work. Not only for ourselves, but for our eight year old daughter, as well. And our relationship improved dramatically as a result.

Fast forward to today, a few months after my breasts began to develop and grow, of which my wife is also aware of.

Earlier this evening, I mentioned to her that I wanted to have a consultation with a local electrologist to discuss the possibility, cost, and time of beginning electrolysis on my face. Of course, having done my research in advance, I have a pretty good idea of what to expect, but none of that is relevant here.

What is relevant was my wife's reaction. She took the offensive, and asked why I would do that. She stated "where is this all going?" several times.

She also said that if either of us are going to have electrolysis, it would be her, because she "is a real woman," and I am "a man." She referred to herself as a "real woman," and me as "a man," completely and intentionally at my expense several times.

Then she concluded by saying that she "lets" me buy women's clothing without complaint, and "lets" my go out occasionally dressed, and that I should be happy with that.

I don't know. All of this sucks. It really hurt my feelings. She does not see me as a woman. Of course, I get that she thought she thought she had married a man, but it appears that she just views me as some type of glorified crossdresser, and that I can just turn it on and off at will, and be happy with some clothes, some small boobs, and the occasional sojourn out into public.

I mean, she asked repeatedly, "where is this all going??!" Well, where the **** do you THINK it is going???!! Did she not listen to the therapist at all? I have given her books, and other resources to read. She hasn't read any of them. I suppose she is in her own form of denial. I guess I can't blame her for that. But where does that leave me? Where does that leave our family? What does it mean to the progress I need to continue to make.

I'm already about to fall apart at the seams. I have too much pressure on me as it is. I have seriously sick family members I have to be strong for and visit as often as possible. I am the primary caretaker of our daughter. I take care of most of the household stuff. I am barely performing at work. I feel alone and isolated. And this doesn't help. Not one bit. She said no, that shaving my face should be enough, because that's what men do.

Sigh. It's all too much. Especially when my wife takes the position that she is the only "real woman" in the family, and that, at the end of the day, I am just nothing but a mere, stupid, disillusioned "man" who she thinks should be fine living in fantasy land with the few concessions she has offered me.

:-(

[stefan37]

Anne, My heart goes out to you. Your wife is in the denial phase and the physical changes you are experiencing is more than likely as my wife said to me freaking her out. My wife picked up real early that my skin texture changed and the developing breast put her over the edge. She tried her best, but although I still look male, to her I am a woman and she cannot live with a woman intimately. I know how much it hurts. We now sleep in separate beds. It pains me to think I hurt her and ruined her plans of our future together.

Your wife is going through the same process. The physical changes are real and that reality is sinking in that her future with you as a male will be no more. My wife actually handled electrolysis better than the HRT. I had 6 months of electro before starting hormones. This is a medical condition and your gid is severe. You need to take the steps necessary to ensure your health. you will experience many emotional days ahead, and the hurt that goes along with it. And trust me it is painful. Concentrate on your progress and take comfort that you are moving toward a healthier place. Give your wife all the support you can, she will need it. It is a shame there are many types of support available to us, yet support for our wives is sparse. mainly because most wives just split. For yourself unfortunately the pain will be real and you will have to persevere with all the resolve you can muster to get through it. You can call me anytime and I will help you get through it if I can. I want you to know you are not alone. Many of us have gone or are going through exactly what you are now. No one said this was easy and the losses may be great. Keep your eye on your target goal and you both will get through ok.

It will not be easy. but as a friend said to me this past Sunday as I was experiencing an extremely emotional day, "emotional days are our thing, that's what we do. I will also relate something my employee said to me the other day when I told him my wife and I are sleeping in separate beds. I said to him this is the beginning of the end,m and he responded no " it is the beginning of the beginning. This will not be easy and you and your wife will experience much pain and hurt, but we are here to help you get through in one piece and that is what is most important.

[mikiSJ]

It appears that your wife is finally understanding where you want to go and was not prepared for the reality of your decision(s). Time for a girl to girl chat with the emphasis on girl.

[Eryn]

If you're on HRT it seems rather obvious where "this is all going." Perhaps she is hoping against hope that the man she married will return. there may be a point where your relationship will become untenable for her.

I'm the other way around from your situation. I'm not considering HRT but I have been doing electrolysis on my face. A hairless face is attractive in both modes. Think of all those razor ads showing women caressing their man's smooth chin approvingly!

While I like my feminine side, I realize that my masculine side is important to my wife so I won't abandon it. She has altered the path of her life to help me along my journey and I feel that it is my responsibility to make sure that my path is not so divergent that it leaves her alone.

[Rogina B]

Seems to me that you didn't lay down a very strong "foundation of understanding" as to how important all of this is to YOU. Now you are paying for that shortcut...

[Anne2345]

Rogina, what "shortcut" do you think I have taken here??!! As I explained in the OP, I have been honest with my wife step by step. She has even met with my therapist who discussed in great detail what all of this could mean. I am on HRT. My skin is growing considerably softer, I keep my body free of hair, I am growing breasts. I keep an open dialogue with my wife. I have encouraged her multiple times to see a therapist herself. I have provided her books and written resources. I haven't held anything back. She knows I have come out to friends and family. She knows I go to TS support groups in another state because there are none her. She knows I have been in intensive therapy over these issues for almost two years now. She has seen me break down crying multiple times.

So what the hell shortcut do you see that I am taking and that I am paying for now??? I even let her read my posts I submit here. What the **** more can I do??!! What more of a foundation can I lay??! Did you even read my post for comprehension??!!

Sheesh. Shortcuts??! Are you KIDDING me??!! I mean seriously??!! Wtf kind of response was that??!!

[LeaP]

You don't always reap what you sow, and in this case the soil doesn't seem particularly rich. So you try more seed, more fertilizer, more water, more care, and the yield is still low. If you're really determined, you'll keep trying - hybrids, genetically modified stocks, perhaps. Or you go in the other direction, organic, even biodynamics.

In the end, you cannot force the earth to yield what it will not. Thing is, all soils are natively hospitable to certain things. You can only push that so far, unless you go so far as to change its very composition. At that point, how kind have you been to the earth?

Sometimes - sometimes - time makes things work as the soil and plants work together to modify the growing environment in the natural cycle. But there are no guarantees.

You've taken no shortcuts.

[Badtranny]

Annie, both of my marriages ended long before I began transition, though the second one did end when I came out as gay, but anyhoo, I can't relate to your situation except to feel for you as a sister.

This is the thing about transition, at some point, ...shits gonna get real. Just do yourself a favor and make damn sure you're ready for it.

F all of us tranny broads on this forum, do what's right for you. Nobody here has any stake in your life, and if your wife leaves you, then what?

[Kaitlyn Michele]

So Sorry Anne. Are you truly surprised at her reaction? Perhaps you were hoping this day would come much later.

As the info keeps piling in for her she has put up a wall. It's all very natural and although its not good it's not the end of story. Clearly she has not internalized the situation as much as you hoped.

Your in the moment decisions about this will be important. If you back off you send one message....and every step you take will be met with the same response. ..if you compassionately share that electrolysis is going to happen (and perhaps she could doit as well?) you drive home the reality of it all for her and that will have a big impact in your relationship.

To me I would thnk given your particulars, electrolysis would be a very constructive thing for you. It does not finalize any commitment but its significant progress.

[Tracy Lynn]

Hi Anne,

This sounds very similar to what I went through with my ex wife. I told her who I was and how I felt 15 years into our marriage so it was quite the shocker to her. But I felt confident in our marriage because she said she wanted to stay together and work things out....she said it didn't matter because I am still the same person which made me hopeful things would work out. I too bought countless books for her to read which she never did...joined support groups which she never attended and 5 years after I told her and wanted to start transition she said she doesn't understand. Well how could she...she never really tried. I guess she was in denial that I was somehow going to change back into the man that she married which was Not going to happen.

I started seeing a therapist that made me see that as well as the rest of the people in my life...I deserve to be happy. To me that meant starting my journey of transition into becoming the woman I am today. That was when my marriage started falling apart. We both wanted 2 different things out of life. She wanted a husband and I wanted to be a woman. Back then I was so selfish of her feelings and couldn't understand why after all the times she said she wanted to stay together, now she was having a problem with my transition.

We agreed to separate back in January 2012 and it was the best decision we made. I'm not saying that it would be right for you, just saying it worked for us. Don't get me wrong, we loved each other very much...we were together for 22 years. We honestly thought that we could make it work. But in the end, it was our happiness, each as an individual that mattered most. Why should she be in a marriage to a woman when want she really wanted was a man. Why should I be in a marriage where I couldn't be myself and be comfortable with who I was.

I guess what I'm trying to say is you can't be mad at her for feeling the way she does. This decision you are making is rocking her world to say the least. You can't expect her to agree to all of these changes you are making and why should she. On the other hand you can't hold back who you want to be. You both deserve happiness and so does your daughter. She deserves to have 2 parents that are happy and not miserable. Life doesn't always stay the same, it changes constantly and change isn't always a bad thing. I hope you find happiness.

Peace and Love ~ Tracy

[LeaP]

Your in the moment decisions about this will be important. If you back off you send one message....and every step you take will be met with the same response. ..if you compassionately share that electrolysis is going to happen (and perhaps she could doit as well?) you drive home the reality of it all for her and that will have a big impact in your relationship.
.

Good advice.

I'm curious about your earlier question about hoping this would come later. What did you mean by that?

[Barbara Ella]

Anne, I am sorry to read this, as I know the steps you have taken. I fear the same reaction from my wife as we begin to discuss the future progression that is possible in the coming years. I am lucky in that my wife gave up her interest in physical male intimacy over a dozen years ago, but the clinging to the "man" in her life will be difficult as this is the issue that has clouded her knowledge of who I really am to date.

Her response, in light of the educational opportunities provided leads to the conclusion that your discussions, and the therapists discussions just did not resonate with her. I don't know if you observed the "light" going on during your discussions or not, just an observation to help explain why she reacted as she did, knowing it would be so hurtful.

This is rough on you, and will require yet another example of your strength and resolve. I pray you have a reserve, and that your wife realizes it might be an overreaction. Give her some time, but I know you cannot give up who you really are.

Barbara

[Stephanie47]

Miki, I am totally in agreement with you. Sometimes marital partners take a long time to grow apart. Frankly, a partner going to a therapist and reading every book stacked on the table will not change anything. It does not take a lot of book reading for a person to see where this marriage is headed. I am not trying to be rude. There are serious issues on the table. You are wanting her to go in a direction she obviously is not comfortable taking. Sometimes it takes years for a woman to realize the marriage is not what she bought into. I will agree she should not be rude. But, how does she lash out in her frustrations? She should not expect you to change. And, you should not expect her to go along as your co-pilot with you piloting the plane. And, a failing marriage held together for the supposed benefit of the kids does not work at all for the child. You really need to have that talk with your wife.


It appears that your wife is finally understanding where you want to go and was not prepared for the reality of your decision(s). Time for a girl to girl chat with the emphasis on girl.

[Persephone]

It appears that you are getting a lot of contradictory advice and a few suggestions, some good, some bad, but all, no doubt, with the best of intentions.

You are a long-term valued member of this community, Anne, and as you work through this very difficult time there are some of us here who will try our best to help simply by listening.

Hugs,
Persephone.

[ReineD]

Anne it does sound as if she's in denial. I know that you gave her all the resources, but did either you or your therapist say outright that you are a woman and that you are moving towards a full transition? If when you did have that conversation, you weren't quite sure yet how far it would go, then likely your wife hung on to the hope that this is just a phase. I'm guessing it has been two steps forward and one step back with you over the last 5-6 years, and her own journey will be similar.

She may be able to turn it around. Just please keep talking to her. Tell her how her comments made you feel. Maybe the two of you can keep ploughing through all of this.

[Kathryn Martin]

Your in the moment decisions about this will be important. If you back off you send one message....and every step you take will be met with the same response. ..if you compassionately share that electrolysis is going to happen (and perhaps she could doit as well?) you drive home the reality of it all for her and that will have a big impact in your relationship.

I think this is great advice. I also believe that it will bring home the reality of your life, and that can sometimes have very negative results. I think you might be at a stage where it is increasingly more important to bring the the full measure of what you need to her. It is obvious from your description of her reaction that she is denying your reality. To what extent that is a failure of your telling or a failure of her listening is unclear to me. But as always in these situations it is our responsibility to be open and take the full brunt of what that brings back from those that we love. It is an incredibly painful time. Prevarication and mixed messages born from fear don't help. In fact the drippy disclosure (at least at the point where you are now) makes it worse. As Kaitelyn says advancing and backing off in the hope that we can get our partners there eventually creates distrust because we lull our partners into a false sense of security of "it may not be so bad". But that is exactly what creates the "I let you do this or that" kind of view. This complete laying bare of what the truth is cannot be a negotiation. And once done, we are not the only drivers of the bus.

With you..........

[Rogina B]

What more of a foundation can I lay??! Did you even read my post for comprehension??!!

Sheesh. Shortcuts??! Are you KIDDING me??!! I mean seriously??!! Wtf kind of response was that??!!

Sorry,but I have great reading comprehension skills..I don't believe the physical effects of HRT was properly shown and explained to her.That wouldn't be important,but you value her support,as your post reads.She obviously believed that the HRT was merely a happy pill for you similar in results to antidepressants for others.Now your booblets have flipped a switch because she hadn't seen booblets from HRT therapy before.Foundation is an issue because you say that you have been under agreement as to how much "Anne" you could have..To me,limits like that are bizarre in that you are of the mindset to alter your body,yet still at the pantythriller level with your wife's understanding of your T mindset.So,I think you gave your wife the short version of the story.

[melissaK]

I don't know Sweetie. You said "it really hurt my feelings" and you have all my empathy and sympathy.

But now you need to break down those hurt feelings of yours. You list out a bunch of consequences that will be the impact of her making choices for herself, inabil;ity of you to continue running the household for everyone and your daughter, inability for you to support extended family, inability of you to keep being the main wage earner, loss of perhaps your own job. And all that I can characterize as impact on OTHERS.

In that OP I didn't see you use the word LOVE, and what it means to YOU to lose someone YOU love. You might need to attribute the enumerated fears as a cover-up of your own fear that you can't cope with her rejection of you. Like it or not, some part of your self worth is determined by her view of you, and her love for you. Thats the way it is between lovers.

I tried to write about this in my post on your last "Where do I Fit In" thread. How those we TS are in love with, are the only ones who we have let see our TS self - the personality behind the clothes. And I tried to discuss how rejection by them of us after we change gender clothes, and after we change sex hormone determined body markers, is a rejection of "us." And because we have no one else who has ever been able to see "us," it leaves us really really alone. We are vulnerable at this time. A cisgendered has a host of friends, some real close ones, who like them because they have always been them. We don't have this same reservoir of trusted friends, and until we finish transition its tough to get them.

Misty (Bad Tranny, aka the other Melissa) warns above, in her succinct to the point style, "Just do yourself a favor and make damn sure you're ready for it."

And if you are in love with your wife, and you believe in love, then you had best do what lovers do to reconcile, they confide, they touch, they woe. They take each others hearts in their hands and they shoulder the responsibility it entails. And maybe it means you slow down and let her catch-up and absorb and grow comfortable with the changes to date before you press on with more transition steps. If it's possible, like Lea said, it's a formulae that will be unique to you and her. And unfortunately, like Lea said it can go the way of Stefanie's life - separate beds.

It can be beyond heartbreaking. My wife and I struggle every day with this. At least once a week I am certain my life is over, at least once a week I am certain my life is wonderful and perfect. And what those oscillations are, is each of us being afraid, then coming to grips with, our changing relationship. So the process will be as long as my transition if she stays for it all.

And I want to emphasize you introduced a new item, electrolysis. It might have been on the cruise ship port of call itinerary like Cancun is, but like any traveler on board, you can't "feel" Cancun until the cruise ship stops and you disembark and go walk through it.

Be patient with the feelings you each experience with each new item, each new change. Take them one at a time. Be kind to her and to yourself as you work through the changes. (I'm cutting and pasting that into an email to myself for advice I need to give myself, cause F@^% it is hard). :-)

[Michelle.M]

Seems to me that you didn't lay down a very strong "foundation of understanding" as to how important all of this is to YOU. Now you are paying for that shortcut...

Rogina, you're not paying attention to what Anne is saying and I think your comments are unfounded and, to be honest, a bit cruel.

Anne, many others here have pointed out what is (to us) obvious. Your transition is getting real and your wife is getting scared (she was most likely in denial up until now). I hope that the time she went to therapy with you was not a one-time thing. Try to engage her in your transition as much as she'll allow.

Several members here have transitioned in the context of a functional marriage and their marriages have survived. I read somewhere that 85% of marriages survive a gender transition. Yours could be one of them.

Hang in there, keep her engaged and try to avoid warfare. Divorce is not inevitable, and this could end well for both of you!

[Sara Jessica]

This is the post I've been waiting for. Not because of the pain which is being conveyed but instead, how one navigates TS waters while in a marriage is something that is real in my own personal situation and I take in everything I can from what others share in this regard.

Early on in your "transition" postings, I would raise the question "but what about your SO?", in so many words. This is particularly relevant with respect to HRT and your ability to still be a husband to your wife from more than one POV. Was she on board for this? Did she truly understand what it would all mean?

I have oft expressed my concerns for the ability of a marriage to survive a TS spouse. It's not impossible but it doesn't seem to be a probable outcome either. And my concerns are multiplied immensely when there is a deep desire to make it work on the part of the TS partner to the point where it would be to one's detriment if the marriage fell apart.

Are you prepared for that possibility?

My personal answer would be no, hence my decision to navigate the TS waters along a current I call a middle path.

I would think electrolysis would be of a lesser concern than sprouting breasts of your very own. Maybe it's the enormity of it all that is finally getting to her but regardless, your wife says the same thing mine often does...

"Where is this leading to???"

So do you know the answer to this question? Does she know?

My thoughts are always with you Anne, sincerely hoping for the best for you.

[Sara Jessica]

Several members here have transitioned in the context of a functional marriage and their marriages have survived. I read somewhere that 85% of marriages survive a gender transition. Yours could be one of them.

Really? I'd like to see where that stat comes from. Sounds like something out of fantasy fiction if you ask me.

While I have no statistic to back it up (which is why I would never quote a percentage), real life observations suggest the percentage of marriages which survive transition is quite low.

So please, share where the 85% comes from so I can show my wife...and she could then promptly remind me that if I go there, I will most certainly be part of the 15%.

[Annaliese]

I have been following your story, you have been straight forward with your wife, I think the reality is it finely hit her and she lost it, stay strong keep on track in the long run it is the best for both of you. The way you were getting thing would not have lasted anyway. You are one the best road for you and your family. good luck and hugs

[VeronicaMoonlit]

Seems to me that you didn't lay down a very strong "foundation of understanding" as to how important all of this is to YOU. Now you are paying for that shortcut...

Just saying this right up front, I didn't bring this up, I thought it, but didn't...I waited.

I figured this issue would happen eventually ...I know I should have warned Anne more strongly than I did.


Rogina, what "shortcut" do you think I have taken here??!! As I explained in the OP, I have been honest with my wife step by step. She has even met with my therapist who discussed in great detail what all of this could mean.

Anne, Anne, Anne, I do hate saying this but you are notorious for leaving things unsaid, using flowery language that obscures meaning, sidestepping the point, beating around the bush and NOT being direct using the words you need to be using. Did you ever use the words "I'm a transsexual and want to transition" with your wife. Because if you didn't she might have interpreted things differently.


I am on HRT. My skin is growing considerably softer, I keep my body free of hair, I am growing breasts.

Yes, but have you actually said the word "transsexual" and "transition" with her, or have you been avoiding doing so?


I have encouraged her multiple times to see a therapist herself.

But has she done so?


I have provided her books and written resources.

That's not the same as saying the things directly yourself and can be an avoidance maneuver. "She'll read these and I won't have to directly confront her." You also should get her on these boards or at least get her a phone or e-mail contact with one of the SO's here or something.




Yes, but that doesn't mean she understands you're a transsexual.

[quote]I even let her read my posts I submit here.

That won't help, because your posts are vague and flowery and don't use the words you need to be using.


What the **** more can I do??!! What more of a foundation can I lay??!

Quit beating around the bush and be direct. I know the other is easier because it avoids arguments/confrontation/anger, but it's not the best way to handle it.


I know that you gave her all the resources, but did either you or your therapist say outright that you are a woman and that you are moving towards a full transition? If when you did have that conversation, you weren't quite sure yet how far it would go, then likely your wife hung on to the hope that this is just a phase.

Exactly!


She obviously believed that the HRT was merely a happy pill for you similar in results to antidepressants for others.......To me,limits like that are bizarre in that you are of the mindset to alter your body,yet still at the pantythriller level with your wife's understanding of your T mindset.So,I think you gave your wife the short version of the story.

Yes, I think so too, to avoid taking the hard path to direct confrontation.


Rogina, you're not paying attention to what Anne is saying and I think your comments are unfounded and, to be honest, a bit cruel.

Anne's always had this problem of being vague and engaging in avoidance techniques. She's just not good at confronting things directly...took for-ev-er to get her to admit that she was yes, transgendered and yes a transsexual.


I hope that the time she went to therapy with you was not a one-time thing. Try to engage her in your transition as much as she'll allow.

I agree!

Veronica

[Michelle.M]

So please, share where the 85% comes from so I can show my wife...

Yeah, I'm looking all over for it. That's why I said "I read somewhere".

Even lacking hard data, one need look no further than this very site. Several of our members are still married following transition. Jennifer Boylan describes her transition in the context of her marriage in her book "She's Not There" and she's still married. I personally know several couples who are doing just fine while the transitioner is in various stages of transition and I know a few more who were married after transition had begun.

I'll report back when I find the source of that number, but the real proof will come from the real life examples we observe and the ones we actually manage to become ourselves.


...and she could then promptly remind me that if I go there, I will most certainly be part of the 15%.

If that's what she wants then that's what will happen. And although it seems inevitable that a marriage will break up over a transition the anecdotal evidence would seem to contradict that.

But that's just how I see things. I have always been one to make my own luck and to forge my own destiny. I don't accept anything as a given until I have failed at all other alternative outcomes.


Rogina, you're not paying attention to what Anne is saying and I think your comments are unfounded and, to be honest, a bit cruel.

Anne's always had this problem of being vague and engaging in avoidance techniques. She's just not good at confronting things directly...took for-ev-er to get her to admit that she was yes, transgendered and yes a transsexual.

Veronica, please don't muck this thread up with attacks on Anne and a compilation of all of her forum posting inconsistencies. I understood exactly what she was saying and she's addressing a valid point. If all you want to do is show off your tendency toward historical accuracy and if you can't offer any constructive input than perhaps you might sit this one out.

[MysticLady]

Anne, my heart goes out to you. Its very difficult to deal with this at times especially when a loved spouse is involved. Sometimes trying to help her with her feelings while not completely handling your own is not healthy either. When I tried to help my wife her with her feelings and neglect mine I became a very not nice person. That certainly did not help the relationship. Now that we're separated I believe that she's at least trying to understand me even if its slightly but I feel that every spouses nightmare is that her man,especially if married for a while, is becoming someone she most definitly did not marry and will have trouble being married too,because of the fact that they are not lesbian and have no thoughts of becoming one. I wish you and your wife peace of mind while you sort this out.

[VeronicaMoonlit]

Veronica, please don't muck this thread up with attacks on Anne and a compilation of all of her forum posting inconsistencies.

Spare me your ire about what you think I might do. I like Anne, I worry about Anne, I'm one of the people who encouraged Anne to identify as TS. I know you think you're defending her, but you've got it wrong. I have no need to refer to previous posts...it's unnecessary in this instance.


If all you want to do is show off your tendency toward historical accuracy

How can one offer advice pertinent to the situation unless one knows the person as best they can through this imperfect medium? Anne engages in avoidance, I know this, she knows this and has admitted she does and has done it. Many of us have done it, many of us will do it in the future. It's all about recognizable patterns of behavior that we see over and over again in ourselves and others.


and if you can't offer any constructive input than perhaps you might sit this one out.

What part of "Be Direct, Use the Words, and stop engaging in avoidance", is not constructive. Essentially that's what ReineD said as well. I just said it much more simply, bluntly and directly.

People might like to think that nice commiserations like "Oh sweetie hun dear, I so feel for you and am sorry your wife doesn't understand, I hope things get better hun." are useful, the direct "Anne engates in Avoidance, Anne should stop doing so" is actually useful advice. it's that simple.

Veronica

[Dawn cd]

I guess none of us really face things until we have to. Anne, you told your wife time and again what you are doing but at some deep level she didn't hear you. She was in "some kind of denial." It's your dysphoria, not hers, and so she didn't have the same imperative to deal with it. Now, for some reason, your decision to pursue electrolysis has brought home the reality of what's happening. Her first reaction is disbelief—but, remember, this is just her first reaction. For you it's also an opportunity to bring her on-board for the full trip. So postpone electrolysis for a short time and get her back to the therapist. Talk to her longer. Give her the books again. Maybe this time she'll really hear you.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

85% ...no way...just no way... in my limited experience the number is closer to 0 than 85... especially if the gender dypshoria gets bad...and lets get real...thats the driver...how bad is the gender distress...

++ WTH?? +++

where does all this judgement come from??

conversations happen in real time...this particular one popped up in the context of electrolysis..its not rocket science...information gets shared and parsed over time...certain things may or may not have been said or were left misunderstood...
that all got cleared up by anne's wife...her views became known, a grey line is now black......maybe it was her wife that wasn't sharing enough?? who can know? who cares why.......now the landscape is clearer...it feels bad...it hurts...maybe for both of them...

day to day, that's how communication actually works...one day you havent shared info, something happens, the next day more info is shared...its like a turning point...its not mystery..this is a moment in time not the culmination of some undisclosed secret plan

++++

and the level of gender dypshoria matters
..alot..that drives what happens more than anything else..

...its not some selfish need for a transitioner to say "i have to do it right now", its not a lie to desperately cling to hope that you wont have to transition even though in your heart you know it may be impossible, nor is it the noble high ground to "go for keeping the marriage together".....feel free to preach to her about how she should have done this or that...but what i see is nothing more than a ts woman trying manage her gender dysphoria the best way she can...and predictably, as the GD ramps up it becomes more of an issue than it was before... whats the mystery??

you start out trying to make it better, and the GD gets worse and worse..
if the GD has not reached that point for you, then know that it likely will...do your wives know that its highly likely that although you are hanging tough for now, as you age and life happens it will be more and more unsustainable...how will they feel in 10 years when it happens to you?

...its not love of family, or more honesty or better communication skills or lot in life.......
...if it hasnt exploded in your life, it just hasnt happened "yet"
.. people never plan for gender dypshoria to start, nor do they plan for the day when it makes nothing else matter..

gender dypshoria renders promises and noble gestures less than worthless .....and as it ramps up it makes effective and constructive communication more difficult and even impossible..and in those cases don't we all just do our best??


i so feel for you anne reading some of these posts...i just don't get it...

[Lynnmorgan451]

i think its 85% DON'T work out....I read somewhere, or more like 98%....or 100% is what it feels like in my case :(

[Michelle.M]

i think its 85% DON'T work out....

Could be. Like I said, I'm gonna see if I can track down the source. But there are enough success stories just here on this site to give anyone hope.

I have a motto that sustains me, and it seems to work here - "Expect the best but prepare for the worst"

I'm hopeful that Anne could be a success story.

[Kristyn Hill]

hhhmmmm, let me think on this one....

[Kathryn Martin]

I think that marriages most of the time do not survive. The younger the transitioner is the higher the likelyhood that the marriage will not survive in the long term.

Mine survived but only because of very personal circumstances that are not comparable to others. But it is possible.

The other thing is that in the marriage dynamic transitioning does effectively destroy the underlying assumptions of the marriage. I wrote a couple of weeks ago this somewhere else:

"Being a husband means taking a common outlook and, based on common assumptions at the beginning of the compact struck at marriage, together, man-woman, children, security, togetherness...... and so on. You destroyed the common assumption, whether deliberately or not has really no relevance."

In your spouse coming to terms with your transition this in my view must be always kept in mind. She didn't do a damn thing but trust you to keep your promise. Marriage survival is actually never marriage survival. It is in effect the striking of a new compact with different assumptions to start out with. If you want to continue as you were in regards to your relationship, I would venture to say, the survival of your relationship in which you are life companions of one another will most likely fail. If you can, after having lived through her legitimate anger find a new common ground you might have a life together. After my surgery and after she had lived through her anger, disappointment and hurt, my spouse, and when she realized that she loved me not the sex I was born with, she proposed to me. In all of this I had no right to ask for a continuation of our marriage. And I did not get a continuation of our marriage. We got engaged last year and we will be married again this year.

[Michelle.M]

I think that marriages most of the time do not survive. The younger the transitioner is the higher the likelyhood that the marriage will not survive in the long term.

Mine survived but only because of very personal circumstances that are not comparable to others. But it is possible.

For some reason that quote from Anna Karenina came to mind

"Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way."

I suspect that the unique circumstances in your life may be common, at least in tone and character, to those of any other couple who gets through this.

[Marleena]

I have watched Anne struggle with this since I've been here. I've decided to keep my mouth shut now because I really feel she's being pulled in all different directions and nothing I say can help. I stand by my last advice that only a professional can help her with this battle and I wish her luck.

[Momarie]

I wonder if your wife feels she has compromised so much...yet you keep wanting more.

Your journey so far and HRT must have been a HUGE adjustment for her too...and then just when the dust settles, you bring up electrolysis.

Maybe it's time for you to make some compromises and concessions for her.

Most people here understand why and if you can't...but don't be angry at her because you can't.

Try to be empathetic and understand what she is feeling.

[melissaK]

“The key here is appearance. No matter how supportive the friend or partner may be while transition is still in the talking stage, the first sign of physical change almost invariably forces a reassessment of that support. It may not necessarily mean a complete loss of the relationship, but as the transition progresses, the interchange between the two parties typically undergoes a radical “redefinition. I have noticed that the more intimate the relationship before transition, the more likely the relationship will be radically changed.”

Excerpt From: Anne Vitale PhD. “The Gendered Self.” Flyfisher Press, 2010-01-04. iBooks.

This seemed appropriate.

[Amanda22]

Hey Anne, I'm sorry you have so many negative things going on right now. Two things struck me by reading your post. First, have you ever said point blank to your wife that you will be transitioning physically to become a woman? I get that sitting with the gender therapist and all the communication with you would make that very clear, but sometimes people surprise me. Also, a couple of months ago this may have been an abstract thing for her. It gets more real for her as you change and some threshold was crossed with the hair removal idea. I'm not saying that's your or her fault, but maybe is just the way it is.

It sounds like a serious discussion should happen and an agreement on your future together be reached.

[KellyJameson]

I'm sorry Anne that you are now experiencing the added burden of a partner who does not support your transitioning.

I think it is human nature to avoid unpleasant truths when those truths come with unpleasant consequences.

By the sound of your wife's words she was accommodating you without understanding the gravity of gender dysphoria.

You are now experiencing the "push back" that probably your breast growth triggered.

The breasts along with the face have the most powerful emotional affect on people when touching their subconscious representation of womanhood.

In her fear and anger she has convinced herself that you are suffering from a delusion that you are a woman.

I believed myself that gender dysphoria was nothing more than a self inflicted delusion and that is why I fought it by resisting the constant complusion to change.

I'm sympathetic with your wife because she is facing the possible loss of everything but my fear is greatest for you.

Gender dysphoria is strongly affected by the world we live in and this world will increase the intensity of the dysphoria the more you are removed from living your actual gender.

Mine was always a dull unrelenting ache because I avoided living as a "man" through relationships that demanded me to perform these roles.

I avoided men and women who through their expectations locked me into a gender role that would be impossible for me to perform.

You did the opposite and stepped into the role of husband and this may actually have increased the GD leading you into depression and a form of living death where you go through the movements and performance of living in a numb state.

You live between depression and numbness with moments of happiness that almost resembles bi-polar and borderline personality disorder.

Living contrary to your internalized and felt gender identity will make you sick. I see no other possible outcome.

I have had moments of this experience and it terrified me to such a degree that I fled the relationship as if my very life depended on it without any understanding of what I was running from. I literally felt like I was being destroyed by the relationship.

Now I see I was fighting to protect my identity.

In my opinion you are in a very fragile state because you have been forcing yourself for years to live opposite who you really are. You have been struggling to assert your real and natural self (identity) as a woman while in the body and roles opposite of who you are.

You are living between two worlds pulling you in two different directions. The world outside you that you partake in as a "man" with all its expectations and the world inside you that knows this way of living is not natural to the self.

It feels like you are constantly under assault, constantly under attack as if the world is trying to murder you while leaving your body alive for its own use.

There is no "you" but a "tool" used by others.

You live in a constant state of war with no strength to fight, taking you from constant anxiety into depression and than back into anxiety.

It is simply not possible to live this way for long. Sooner or later something will break inside you.

Everyone is taking from you so you are living your life for others and this would not necessarily be a problem if it was not for the gender dysphoria.

When you are not living aligned between body and mind the worlds expectations will kill you.

In my opinion gender dysphoria requires you to act strongly for and in your own self protection.

Nature and culture has trained men to sacrifice themselves for love and country and if they do not they are cowards and not men.

This works fine in the world of cisgenders but you must remember you do not live in their world.

You can fight for country and protect those you love but you must not try to do it to support others image of you as "man" "husband" "son" "brother" ect....

Your wife is trying to push you back into a role that you cannot possibly perform without experiencing intense suffering.

No one will protect you when you are transsexual because you stand outside the system that cisgenders have built that serves their needs and wants.

You are attempting to step out of this system while still remaining a member of it but those who naturally belong to it will resent you for breaking its rules as the structure that supports it.

This is the loneliness of being in an extreme minority and why it is so difficult to leave the safety of the cisgender herd that adds to the torment of the transsexual.

You are constantly forced to make a choice between living in their world which creates suffering or living in your own world that is proper for you whose entry you pay with in the suffering of leaving the unnatural world you have been living in.

You pay in pain to escape pain. There is no other way.

[Angela Campbell]

My god.....Kelly, you just said some things that hit me so hard I cannot even say what I want to say....I have no words right now

[Lynnmorgan451]

You pay in pain to escape pain. There is no other way.

I have nothing to add to this except -----------> exactly how I feel

[Rianna Humble]

This is the third time in two days that I have had to step in to remove posts that were attacking the person rather than the ideas.

:angry: THAT IS NOT WHAT THESE FORUMS ARE HERE FOR AND IT IS AGAINST THE RULES :Angry3:

If you really feel strongly about the way that someone has expressed their ideas, either take it to PM without attacking the person, or report the post.

If you want to engage in attacks against someone, take up boxing.

[LeaP]

The interactions in this thread are fascinating from the standpoint of the personal dynamics. There are several themes, but the strongest is blame. Let's reduce the script for clarity:



Wife has problem. Anne, it's your fault.

It's actually funny in a way, one reason being that it is such a male posture when a woman has an issue to assign responsibility to the husband. "Poor woman – couldn't possibly be her. It must be him ... the jerk. "

Then there are the rationales. Of all of them, the one I find the most comical assumes that what Anne has said to her wife is anything like what she writes here. I have to tell you that that is a pretty unthinking assumption. Very few people expose too much that is too personal or too detailed on an open Internet forum. But you also have to be able to read detail into different styles of writing.

Anne, you write in a very emotional style, but it carries a tremendous amount of information. You are also an attorney, and perfectly capable of writing with exacting precision.

So what to make of the OP? I take it that you said little about communications between you and your wife because, in your view, they have been than adequate and extensive besides. Your focus was on the conundrum of dealing with someone who understands – but refuses to internalize. Who is brilliant herself, but prefers to avoid. Just about everyone in the thread who is involved in a relationship and is in any kind of transition (or has transitioned) completely understood what you were saying.

I write this just having returned from my therapy appointment. One of the discussion points was how much to communicate, when, and how. I am not one who will reduce this down to simple statements like being "completely honest." I know that there was a time, as there was for most of us, when you did hold back and hide. I am also aware that ended quite a while ago. Everything has been on the table for a while. That, however, does not mean mindlessly dumping information in a way that could be destructive, either.

In this, you deserve no blame. Neither, by the way, does your wife.

:hugs:

[Kathryn Martin]

It is indeed funny that fault is apportioned so easily. In the context of transsexuals no one seems to get the notion that this is a no fault environment. Guilt is the most mis-placed emotion in all of this. This is not a blameworthy situation but in fact both transitioner and spouse are entirely victims. One because of a birth condition the other because the spouse has a birth condition.

If you understand that it goes a long way to find the right approach to resolving the situation.

Thanks Lea

[Anne2345]

I really appreciate all of the responses.

I agree with those here that propose that neither I nor my wife are at fault. I do not blame her for her feelings. She didn't sign up for this. But I didn't sign up for this, either. So it's not like I am going out of my way to intentionally sabotage or tank my marriage. I love my wife very much. I do not want to lose her.

At the same time, however, I recognize that I am well on my way to losing myself if I strive to retain the status quo and do nothing more. And in the end, after I have gone completely insane and lost my mind, who will that serve? Me? My wife? My daughter? My friends and other family? No good can come from me losing it.

On the other hand, if I go forward, who does that serve? Clearly, it serves me, although not necessarily my wife. I would have to think, at least at some level, that it would serve my daughter by the simple fact that I will not have done something stupid like slit my wrists and check out.

Regardless, just so I am absolutely clear - I want very much to retain my marriage.

Equally as clear - despite my best efforts to the contrary, I cannot help myself, and I cannot continue to fight this without going mad and wanting to die.

I would like very much to have what most would consider an average, everyday, normal life, and a life devoid of such hardship. And maybe going forward can provide that opportunity. Maybe. But I suppose there is no chance of that if I go back.

Several of you have asked whether I have told my wife point blank whether I am transsexual and that I plan on transitioning.


So what to make of the OP? I take it that you said little about communications between you and your wife because, in your view, they have been than adequate and extensive besides. Your focus was on the conundrum of dealing with someone who understands - but refuses to internalize. Who is brilliant herself, but prefers to avoid. Just about everyone in the thread who is involved in a relationship and is in any kind of transition (or has transitioned) completely understood what you were saying.

Exactly.

As for admitting to her the actual word that I am transsexual. Yes. I have. On many, many occasions. In this regard, she is under no illusions.

What I have not told her, however, is that I do plan on transitioning to a woman. At least, I haven't done so yet.

But this is for a very good reason. Well, perhaps it's not a good reason, but it is a reason, nonetheless. That being, I have yet to tell or admit to myself that I am going to transition. Quite frankly, I don't know what I am going to do. Or perhaps more accurately, I am not sure if I am ready to accept and admit what I am going to do yet.

You all preach, and rightfully so, that one should only transition when there is no other option. Either right or wrong, even though my actions, thoughts, feelings, emotions, and needs all suggest otherwise, I want to make my life work as it is. Except for the part that I do not want it to work as is, because I know that it cannot work as is. Lol. Kinda f'ed up, huh? Well, this whole thing is f'ed up.

I don't know. Perhaps I am hoping that some day soon I will just wake up and all of this will have passed. Until and unless it does, though, I am failing life miserably as is. I cannot continue to sustain this over the long run. Just for example, I am barely functional at work as it is. I wouldn't be surprised if I walked into the office tomorrow and was fired on the spot for lack of production. Even worse, I recognize this, yet I hardly even care. How stupid is THAT??!!!

Kaitlyn mentioned something a while back a few months ago that really struck me. Unlike some here who have meticulously planned out every detail of their transition, she explained that she just kinda "backed into it." She just kept going forward, step by step, day by day, until one day the thought just hit her - she had transitioned!

I can be stubborn about what I am ready or willing to admit or accept about myself. I recognize this.

Sigh.

"Where is all of this leading to?"

That is one hell of a question.

[stefan37]

There really should be no blame. Anne's wife may blame him for not communicating clearly enough and she is as was said frightened and angry. Anne could blame his wife because she did not research the subject thoroughly. But the reality is Anne is going down a path her wife possibly cannot follow. My wife not would read the literature or follow the links I provided. she refuses to join this site for her reasons. We attended 6 therapy sessions together and it helped some, but she reached an impasse where further therapy together would not serve her well. She is seeing a therapist with extensive trans experience on her. We both love each other deeply, and I know she kept an open mind and tried but the physical changes were too much for her to bear. We now sleep in separate beds and she seems happier. As we discuss our future and since I have lost her as my spouse I will move forward. As we discuss name changes and surgeries, she knows in her heart she will not be able to move forward with me and we will at that time cease to live together. My thought is Anne's wife is feeling the same as my wife did.

This is something I found on the web a while ago
spousal rate of divorce to mtf transition
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/m/mfr/4919087.0015.102?rgn=main;view=fulltext
I thought we would be in the 20% that survived and of that 20 I believed our love would give us an 80% chance. Well the reality is so far from my hope. She tried, I know she tried her best. She knows I must move forward so in our best interests we are we are.
that is the brutal hard truth about spouses and transitioning. There is a member in my support group that was married and her wife was present and supported her through her transition including surgeries. She informed the group 3 weeks ago they were divorcing.
I am extremely envious of those couples that are able to stay together but the odds of that are poor. Most woman that marry a man will not want to live with a woman, it is that simple. The only advice I can give is to be as honest as you can, include your spouse in decisions and hope your love can carry the day. I lost the most precious individual in my life and that was the only fear I had about my decision to pursue transition. Anne and anybody that prusues transition should be aware that the loss of your spouse is a very real possibility. All we can do is to continue to give as much support as we can to them.

[Nicole Erin]

Well, it is common that "Accepting" GG's often decide later that they have a problem with it.
On a good note - if you end up divorced, at least you won't have some GG trying to tell you how to live.
I was hurt when I went thru my divorce (partially cause of being TS) but these days, I do what I want.

We each have to live our own lives. We do not owe our happiness to some other grown-up who doesn't approve of how we live. Why should you sacrifice YOUR well being just cause some grown-ass GG woman doesn't want you to live as YOU want but instead live as she thinks you should?

[Kathryn Martin]

Sigh.

"Where is all of this leading to?"

That is one hell of a question.

That is one hell of a question but it is a rhetorical one. And sorry, love you know it too.

[kimdl93]

This is definitely a setback, and I think most of us who are married know what it feels like. You've heard this here dozens of times - expect your SO to experience a roller coaster of emotions and expect certain milestones - like deciding to have electrolysis - to elicit a visceral reaction. Each of these milestones demarque something of a point of no return. And its natural for your SO to fear that the male is beginning to ebb away.

But, on the positive side, she has been very supportive up till now and has been through a lot of counseling with you. This setback may actually simply be setting the stage for her acceptance of the next stage. Give her some time to mull it over.

My experience isn't exactly the same and my journey may not lead to quite the same end, but I recall a similar moment in my marriage when I asked my wife if it would be OK if I was fully dressed - foundations, forms, make up, wig, bling - in her presence. This came after months of what I took to be her tacit acceptance of me with everything but the wig and makeup. When I asked the question, I could hear the pain and the sinking feeling. But she said yes.

Then, I got fully dressed and we had a long conversation. During that conversation she basically said she wished this would go away, that she missed the smell and feel of a man, and really wasn't happy with the extent of my dressing. She apologized for not being able to accept it, and I told her she had no obligation to do so. It was my "thing" not her's and if she wasn't happy with it, if it hurt her ...even a dull ache...then I needed to partition our lives so I didn't inflict this on her.

I left the room, showered and reappeared as a male. But later, she came up and embraced me and said "I could see you deflate before my eyes". "Let's rethink this" and that night in bed, she said "I have something I have to say. I don't want to suck the joy out of your life" and "this isn't really a big thing - its not anything at all, and I want you to be happy"

I took a little break from dressing out of respect for her and we eventually reached a new plateau that works for both of us. I dress at least 70% of the time and bring that male facade out when it suits her needs. We both know that the male is more of an act - physically and especially emotionally. But that's where we are now and we'll see how for how long.

[docrobbysherry]

Anne, this sucks! I wish I had an idea, a plan, a suggestion, ANYTHING DAM IT!

I ALWAYS have an answer, a plan, a quip, some DAM THING! But, I have nothing but tears for u and yours, hun!

U r such a remarkable, sensitive, and lovely person. And, I'm sure your SO and daughter r, too. But, I can't see a happy ending for all of u unless u, suddenly, somehow, find a clear path for Anne to follow.

I DO hope I'm wrong and wish all of u all very best! Remember, I and so many others r here for U!

[stefan37]

Anne, Like Kaitlyn I have taken my transition step by step. You may find formulating a general plan and then taking it in steps the best way to move forward. For me every step I have taken towards transition has felt right and confirms for me I am moving in the right direction. I have some general plans for the future, but the immediate task is funding and completing electrolysis and navigating with my wife our future relationship. You may not want to admit to yourself, but you are transitioning. the hormones will and have started to change your physical being. They are also and it is much more subtle changing your brain chemistry and the way you think and react to stimuli around you. Can you take hormones and live as a male as some have. Maybe, but I highly doubt you could as you have stated many times in previous posts.

Considering the anguish you are experiencing you really need to take steps to alleviate your pain. There will be losses, there will be anguish and hurt. It will be very emotional at times. It is not an easy road and certainly not for the squeamish. But there is hope and light. You will start experience many positive events that will confirm for you moving in the right direction. Let go and take those steps. they do not have to be large. Small steps, start laser or electro and see if it is a positive experience. Communicate with your wife what you need and ask what she needs. You may be able to come to common ground. You may not and the hurt will be there. It does get better as many members here have stated. Your life will be authentic and you will want to be alive. Your work will improve and your productivity will increase. Whining about our condition will not make it go away. you can not do the same things over and over and expect different results. to get a different result something must change.

[VeronicaMoonlit]

I think it is human nature to avoid unpleasant truths when those truths come with unpleasant consequences.

By the sound of your wife's words she was accommodating you without understanding the gravity of gender dysphoria.

Yes, Indeed.


It is simply not possible to live this way for long. Sooner or later something will break inside you.

I agree.


You live between depression and numbness with moments of happiness that almost resembles bi-polar and borderline personality disorder.

Ahh, I see you noticed that too, it also reminded me of manic-depressive behavior. It very much worries me.


You pay in pain to escape pain. There is no other way.

Ah, what a brilliant turn of phrase.


It's actually funny in a way, one reason being that it is such a male posture when a woman has an issue to assign responsibility to the husband. "Poor woman – couldn't possibly be her. It must be him ... the jerk. "

But the truth is, in this situation, both Anne and her wife are women. :-) Anne isn't male, which is the issue behind all the other issues here.


assumes that what Anne has said to her wife is anything like what she writes here. I have to tell you that that is a pretty unthinking assumption. Very few people expose too much that is too personal or too detailed on an open Internet forum. But you also have to be able to read detail into different styles of writing.

While I do agree that there are differences....there are and have been patterns of behavior in regards to various apsects of this thing of o urs.. One common pattern we see is "avoidance". It is not comical at all to assume avoidance played a role, because it has both in this and other situations.


Anne, you write in a very emotional style, but it carries a tremendous amount of information.

I have to disagree, it carries much emotional information, but not as much "factual" information. It is hard to get direct answers out of Anne and that makes it hard to figure out what is going on.


So what to make of the OP? I take it that you said little about communications between you and your wife because, in your view, they have been than adequate and extensive besides.

Interesting, I came to the opposite conclusion in part because I had seen patterns of avoidance. To me it was more like "Anne doesn't mention communication because she hasn't directly told her wife that she want's to transition."


I know that there was a time, as there was for most of us, when you did hold back and hide. I am also aware that ended quite a while ago. Everything has been on the table for a while.

No, it hasn't ended, sad to say and everything hasn't been on the table. More on that later.


In this, you deserve no blame. Neither, by the way, does your wife.

I must disagree strongly, at least in part. Blame can't be assigned for Anne being transgendered. Blame cannot be assigned for Anne and her wife's feelings. But blame CAN be assigned when action or inaction causes the problems to continue or get worse. Feelings can't be controlled, but actions can be. In this case, both Anne and her wife is to blame. If Anne's wife was on these boards, I would be saying certain things to her as well in regards to avoidance and denial and refusing to educate herself.


In the context of transsexuals no one seems to get the notion that this is a no fault environment.

I do not agree with that at all. If one's actions make a situation worse, then there is blame involved. For example if I accidentally stick my hand in a fire, there is no fault. but If repeatedly and intentionally stick my hand in a fire, whose fault is it if I get burned....it is mine.



I agree with those here that propose that neither I nor my wife are at fault. I do not blame her for her feelings. She didn't sign up for this. But I didn't sign up for this, either. So it's not like I am going out of my way to intentionally sabotage or tank my marriage.

But what about your actions or inactions? Did they make the situation better or worse?


And in the end, after I have gone completely insane and lost my mind, who will that serve?

Enought with that rhetoric, lady. You are NOT losing your mind. You know your mind, you just are in deep anguish about the current situation.


at least at some level, that it would serve my daughter by the simple fact that I will not have done something stupid like slit my wrists and check out.

Please, I beg of you don't say or think of such things. I want you to promise me you won't do that....and promise me you'll keep the number of a suicide hotline near the phone.


Several of you have asked whether I have told my wife point blank whether I am transsexual and that I plan on transitioning.

Yes we have asked.


As for admitting to her the actual word that I am transsexual. Yes. I have. On many, many occasions. In this regard, she is under no illusions.

And to be blunt again. Please, refrain from semantical word games, it doesn't help us, or you.


What I have not told her, however, is that I do plan on transitioning to a woman. At least, I haven't done so yet.

And there it is. The crux of the situation. Why not? And shouldn't you have done so BEFORE you started HRT? I should have discouraged you from starting HRT too soon and you did, before you or your wife were prepared and you started BEFORE your wife had full knowledge of the implications and situation.


But this is for a very good reason. Well, perhaps it's not a good reason, but it is a reason, nonetheless. That being, I have yet to tell or admit to myself that I am going to transition.

I'm having a "What the Heck, Heroine" moment. If that's your eason, then why did you start HRT? If you're not ready to admit that to yourself or others, you're not ready for HRT. HRT causes visible changes! It starts the snowball rolling down the hill.


Or perhaps more accurately, I am not sure if I am ready to accept and admit what I am going to do yet.

Come now, that must be rhetorical. You started hormones, you wanted "something", an dyou know in no uncertain terms that the effects aren't just mental.


Either right or wrong, even though my actions, thoughts, feelings, emotions, and needs all suggest otherwise, I want to make my life work as it is. Except for the part that I do not want it to work as is, because I know that it cannot work as is. Lol. Kinda f'ed up, huh? Well, this whole thing is f'ed up.

Yes it is ****ed up. You know you can't have it both ways, that you can't have your cake and eat it too. Your wife's basic feelings on this matter were obvious from the start which is why you've been doing the avoidance of not telling her you want to transition, because you most certainly DO want to transition.


Perhaps I am hoping that some day soon I will just wake up and all of this will have passed.

You know that's not going to happen.


Until and unless it does, though, I am failing life miserably as is. I cannot continue to sustain this over the long run. Just for example, I am barely functional at work as it is. I wouldn't be surprised if I walked into the office tomorrow and was fired on the spot for lack of production. Even worse, I recognize this, yet I hardly even care. How stupid is THAT??!!!

First off, Leave of Absense, take one, NOW. I want you to go to work tomorrow and take a leave of absense, personal days, use your vactiona...whatever because you need to deal with "all of that" now....Losing your job will make this much harder. Then you need some serious help and you and your wife need to see your gender counselor tomorrow. and I do mean tomorrow...and you need to say those words. "I want to transition"

Yes I realize what will probably happen...but y ou need to do that and right quick. You can't keep this up. the frequent angst threads mixed with the jokey threads are a serious symptom. And you also need to start a journal thread in the safe haven.


I can be stubborn about what I am ready or willing to admit or accept about myself. I recognize this.

I know...sigh.


"Where is all of this leading to?"

That is one hell of a question.

That is obviously a rhetorical question because you KNOW where this is going, you're just engaging in avoidance and not wanting to admit the answer. Well it's long past time that you should have done so.


That is one hell of a question but it is a rhetorical one. And sorry, love you know it too.

Indeed.

Veronica

[LeaP]

But the truth is, in this situation, both Anne and her wife are women. :-) Anne isn't male, which is the issue behind all the other issues here.
...
While I do agree that there are differences....there are and have been patterns of behavior in regards to various apsects of this thing of o urs.. One common pattern we see is "avoidance". It is not comical at all to assume avoidance played a role, because it has both in this and other situations.
...
I have to disagree, it carries much emotional information, but not as much "factual" information. It is hard to get direct answers out of Anne and that makes it hard to figure out what is going on.
...
Interesting, I came to the opposite conclusion in part because I had seen patterns of avoidance. To me it was more like "Anne doesn't mention communication because she hasn't directly told her wife that she want's to transition."


Excerpt 1 - I was referring to the responses in the thread - not to Anne and her wife.

Excerpt 2 - Anne has confirmed that the communication has been as complete as it can be. You are quite simply incorrect. Rather than make assumptions, as you've now confirmed you have, perhaps you should ask. You may get an answer, you may be told its none of your business ... or you may be given a general confirmation, as in this case. If you prefer not to accept that at face value, even as a discussion point, you've effectively ended the exchange. Few will tolerate that kind of judgement except from the closest of confidantes and often not even then. I have asked many times (which Anne can confirm, if she cares to). The answer isn't often in the thread, to my point on privacy concerns.

Excerpt 3 - You are incorrect ... and correct. Information - data - isn't in the emotional message. It's in the context, its symbolism, in how themes mix and overlap and collide in Anne ... and in those to whom she is close. The language is rich indeed, nuanced, fine-grained, playful, and evocative. It's also far more direct and less flowery than you apparently believe. Do you believe Genesis is about eating apples and poetry about rhyme and meter?

Excerpt 4 - One cannot tell what they do not know. For whatever reason. Also, many, many people take hormones who never transition. There are some who post here regularly, as you should know. Others start then stop. Some transition but take years before moving from hormones to other steps. There is no single, correct solution or sequence. Judging Anne based on transition assumptions and scenarios that are not hers is intrusive and judgemental.

[arbon]

There has been a lot of wisdom shared. I look at the dilemma of being trans, possibly transitioning, when you are in a long term committed relationship with someone you really love. There is nothing easy about, it gets very emotional, very messes, mean things are said.

My secret to success - I quit trying to save the marriage, I let go. I basically gave it to her to figure out what was going to be in her best interest to do and I would support her in whatever that was. To me seperation / divorce was imminent. But it is kind of weird the way it all worked out - I mean several times divorce was coming and she was going to go live with her mom, get could not wait to be away from me. and she could really let her anger and frustration out on me verbally, she could barb her words and make them hurt. But at the same time she was being my biggest allie - she would stand up and defend me from my family and friends and others in the community. She always had my back and has supported me in whatever I had to do to transition. She did not try to deny me that. I am one of the few lucky ones, we are , surprisingly still together through all the ups and downs (though sleeping in different rooms now). We are still very much connected and love each other. And the other night she said something that warmed my heart - "I think I am becoming ok with you being a woman now"

So yes, some relationships survive - but there can still be big bumps in the road and it can take to all settle.

[DaniG]

Seems to me that you didn't lay down a very strong "foundation of understanding" as to how important all of this is to YOU. Now you are paying for that shortcut...

It's entirely possible that Anne and her therpist laid everything out in and much blunt detail as humanly possible, and Anne's wife fully acknowledged at the time that she understood, and, either she did, or she was already in denial.

Denial is an incredibly powerful mechanism. When I stood back and witnessed the sheer power of my own mind's denial of my TG nature, I was in complete awe. I describe it to others as psychotic denial, because my subconscious literally disconnected me from any reality where it didn't want me to see something. The human mind is amazing. She may very well be in this type of deep state of denial.

[Lynnmorgan451]

And the other night she said something that warmed my heart - "I think I am becoming ok with you being a woman now"

I pray to hear this very thing from my wife. You are so lucky.

[Lynnmorgan451]

I went back and read your original post cuz I think things got a little off sub.... And just wanted to tell you that the GG effect is consistent across the board. Women that are okay with something one minute and not okay the next....ya happened to me, too...actually every day it's something else. I get a lot of crap from people on this site because I was honest HERE about lying to my wife in order to protect OUR best interests..
Every one of us is in a unique situation totally different from one another yet our common thread brings us together. I figured out, painfully true, but for real listen to this...

The reason why my wife was okay with stuff the first time we talked about it and is NOT okay with stuff now:::
SHE WASN'T EVEN LISTENING

And that's the f*cking truth of it all.....

[LeaP]

... the GG effect is consistent across the board. Women that are okay with something one minute and not okay the next....

That's true with all people, not just GGs. Theory collides with reality, emotion confounds logic, judgement corrodes empathy, self interest trumps altruism, desire overcomes habit, temptation destroys will, and context conflicts with context. People are complex enough by themselves and in relationships infinitely more so. We judge other people's apparent lack of consistency by the standard of our own thinking - but no-one else thinks as we do.

[arbon]

I kept having to rehave the conversation with my wife about what I was doing - I don't think it was about her not listening, but she did go through periods of denial - this is not really happening! , and she went through lots of grief. I think as I would reach each new step - hormones, hair removal, going out around town - she would think this is it, thats going to be enough, he's going to realize he does not want to do this and he's going to come back to being my husband and father of our daughter now! Thats what she kept wanting to believe. So with each new stage I was going through we would come back to that very emotional point and go through it all again - sometimes as if we had never had the previous conversations. This is really what I am doing, I am not going back - and she would be back to square one trying to accept it, and often back into anger and grief.

[Stephanie47]

I've been following this thread. I am somewhat disturbed about some of the phrases extensively used. I am, for lack of a better term, a recreational cross dresser in a Don't Ask, Don't Tell marriage. My wife chooses not to participate. I can truly recognize the plight of several of the posters' comments concerning transitioning. I can understand the necessity to be oneself and that will include body modification. The usage of 'denial' on the woman's part really irks me. Just asking as the devil's advocate,

Just what does the woman/wife get out of this?

The entire conversation seems to be about "What the man gets out of it!"

[Rianna Humble]

Stephanie, I realise that as a recreational cross-dresser you have no frame of reference to understand what is being discussed in this thread.

There is no man in this thread. Only a transwoman and her wife.

What the wife gets out of it is a live and functioning partner.

[Lynnmorgan451]

because she "is a real woman," and I am "a man." She referred to herself as a "real woman," and me as "a man," completely and intentionally at my expense several times.

Then she concluded by saying that she "lets" me buy women's clothing without complaint, and "lets" my go out occasionally dressed, and that I should be happy with that.

:-(

This is every day....she is constantly reassuring me that I am NOT a woman and look ridiculous in women's clothes.....every day omg

[ubokvt]

Give it time
As a point of reference, I am in a committed relationship. We have been married for 11yrs, I came out 7 yrs ago. Like many, I started as a CD and well….I started HRT 4 yrs ago after trying everything else. My wife and I go to therapy together, both for trans issues and the marriage and they are separate issues but so intimately entwined you would never know it, like sex and gender. My partner started out as tolerate, I won’t say accepting, and it has been a long, long, journey for both of us and trust me we are just beginning.
If you want to keep the relationship you have to put that first. You have to give her time, and accept it will take time, years. You have had all your life to come to this point, to work through the issues, to deal with your emotions, and the judgments of self and others, How long has she had. To ask her to make the journey in months, a year is to ask the impossible, you didn’t do that in that time period. So give her time to grow, to work the issues out, to see you are still the same person despite the breasts , to see if she can love and lay with a woman. Give her time, give yourself time, You’ve just stated to live it. Both of you will change so much, if you can, and understand for every 2 steps forward there will be one back. Give up on judgments, practice patience and tolerance, and be to her the friend you never had to work this out in her life.

[suzy1]

Excerpt 1 - I was referring to the responses in the thread - not to Anne and her wife.

Excerpt 2 - Anne has confirmed that the communication has been as complete as it can be. You are quite simply incorrect. Rather than make assumptions, as you've now confirmed you have, perhaps you should ask. You may get an answer, you may be told its none of your business ... or you may be given a general confirmation, as in this case. If you prefer not to accept that at face value, even as a discussion point, you've effectively ended the exchange. Few will tolerate that kind of judgement except from the closest of confidantes and often not even then. I have asked many times (which Anne can confirm, if she cares to). The answer isn't often in the thread, to my point on privacy concerns.

Excerpt 3 - You are incorrect ... and correct. Information - data - isn't in the emotional message. It's in the context, its symbolism, in how themes mix and overlap and collide in Anne ... and in those to whom she is close. The language is rich indeed, nuanced, fine-grained, playful, and evocative. It's also far more direct and less flowery than you apparently believe. Do you believe Genesis is about eating apples and poetry about rhyme and meter?

Excerpt 4 - One cannot tell what they do not know. For whatever reason. Also, many, many people take hormones who never transition. There are some who post here regularly, as you should know. Others start then stop. Some transition but take years before moving from hormones to other steps. There is no single, correct solution or sequence. Judging Anne based on transition assumptions and scenarios that are not hers is intrusive and judgemental.

You beat me to it Lea.:eek:

But I know Veronica means well.:)

[Stephanie47]

I am fully aware of what's being discussed in this thread. I did not fall off the turnip truck last week. I've been around for more than six decades and have kept abreast (no pun intended) of what goes on in the world. "What the wife gets out of it is a live and functioning partner." That's no more than saying the wife should embrace what is thrown her way. It's a position of take it or leave it. Accept everything in life. That attitude I've seen played out tooooo many times over the years by anyone and everyone who wishes for anyone and everyone to accept their choices. Sure, if the wife wants to embrace it, that's fine. Just don't push an attitude that a woman should be subservient to everything her partner wants. If a woman enters a relationship with a man under a certain set of beliefs, does she not have the right to hold to her ideals?

Yes, I'm a recreational cross dresser, who does get to be en femme when I feel the necessity. However, I choose to honor my wife's non acceptance. I do not push my cross dressing upon her because I value her as a partner and respect her opinion.




Stephanie, I realise that as a recreational cross-dresser you have no frame of reference to understand what is being discussed in this thread.

There is no man in this thread. Only a transwoman and her wife.

What the wife gets out of it is a live and functioning partner.

[Frances]

Originally posted by Stephanie47
Just don't push an attitude that a woman should be subservient to everything her partner wants. If a woman enters a relationship with a man under a certain set of beliefs, does she not have the right to hold to her ideals?

I agree that people do enter into relationships with sets of presuppositions. A woman who thinks she entered in a relationship with a man should not be exepected to go along with a gender change. Some do, some don't. This, however, is not a whim or a want, nor is it a woman-man relationship. If a significant other cannot transition with the partner, then the relationship should end.

You talk about women being subservient to men, but I keep reading the opposite on this site, more like "she won't let me..." or "she does not accept it that I..." People love hypoagency, as it removes the burden of guilt. Transition is a selfish experience that requires total commitment, not endless negotiation. If one started a relationship under false pretenses (even if they were blind to them), then they should leave in complete honesty.

To all the people who refuse agency, including Anne, I would like to say: "woman-up already, take responsability for your decision."

[Rianna Humble]

I am fully aware of what's being discussed in this thread. I did not fall off the turnip truck last week. .

You may be aware of the subject, but both of your posts demonstrate absolute zero understanding of what is happening. That's OK, transsexuality is so far outside of anyone's frame of reference that it is virtually impossible to understand unless you have lived with it.

[stefan37]

Stephanie 47
You are a recreational crossdressers and in a DADT relationship. In all honesty your situation bears no resemblance to Anne's situation. Whether Anne wants to admit it she is transitioning and her wife is not ready for that reality. You live your life a certain way and you are able to go back and forth as it suits you. Well those of us transitioning do not have that luxury. I disclosed to my wife before we married I was a crossdresser and we survived 30 years as such. I can not explain why at this time I need to transition, but I am and she is not able to go along for the ride. I do not see in this thread anyone pushing their spouses to accept transition. We do advocate honesty for ourselves and for our spouses. We can not take hormones and hide breast growth. we can not hide our softening skin. Our transition is real and the loss can be in some cases devastating. I honestly do not understand your position.

What do we get out of transition? A chance to be authentic. An end to the dysphoria and hopefully inner peace. What do our spouses get out of it? I guess that depends on the spouse. For the majority they get a heap of disappointment, hurt, anger, and all the emotions that go with loss of a loved one. I did everything in my power to show my wife how transition is benefiting me and how it can be positive for the both of us. She has kept an open mind and in the end she can not love me the way she once did.
I hold no blame for her and she has expressed to me many times why can't I just xdress and be happy. I wish I could but I can't. I tried to keep acting male while on hormones. I can not do that. For me it is too difficult to live in the middle and I have made the commitment to fully transition. It is the end of us as man and wife just as it will be for many others that make the commitment to transition.

Anne's wife has not fully grasped Anne's transition and that has created the angst she feels. Whether that is Anne's fault or not I am not in a position to say. Anne and her spouse are really the only one's that have intimate knowledge of what was said.
What we have been discussing and advocating was that she communicate more fully with her spouse about her plans. the thing about transition is you can not have your cake and eat it also. And try as we might to accomplish it we almost invariably fail.

[Stephanie47]

I see so many defending their territory that they have not understood the points I was making. Sure, I do not fully understand what someone may be feeling. I am not a woman, so I do not possess a true ability to think as a woman. As a heterosexual male I cannot truly understand homosexuality, although I do have gay and lesbians friends, coworkers and acquaintances. Although I am not a transman, but, I have met transmen. I do not fully comprehend the angst and torment they go through to achieve their fulfillment. I do sympathize with them concerning their mental and physical challenges.

Sure, the wife is going through turmoil. There is conflict within her which cannot be diminished by reading books. It does not automatically change a person expectations. And, I do sympathize with the woman in these cases. What to do? How does she cope?

Has Anne's wife fully grasped what's going on? I suspect she has, but, she just does not know how to cope with the situation.

Years ago, one of my wife's friends was devastated to find out her husband was gay and wanted out of the marriage. One of the statements she made was, "If it was another woman who wanted my man, I know how to compete! How do I compete with a man for my man?"

As to my subservient comment concerning women, through life and on this forum I have notice much advice thrown out to take it or leave it. That's the way is going to be. And, I have seen many others commenting about the negativity of an attitude like that. In any relationship that usually spelled disaster.

[Anne2345]

However, I choose to honor my wife's non acceptance. I do not push my cross dressing upon her because I value her as a partner and respect her opinion.

Good for you, Stephanie! I am happy that you and your wife have a mutual agreement that suits both of your needs. Truly, and I write this with all sincerity, you may count yourself among the lucky and the blessed.

Unlike you, however, I am not a crossdresser. I cannot turn "it" on or off depending on the circumstances. This is not something I do for enjoyment, fun, thrills, are recreation. This is not a lifestyle. Instead, it is a life. It is my life. It is who I am, and I have no choice in the matter.

But like you, I also value my wife as a partner and a respect her opinion. And also like you, I do not "push an attitude" on her, and I do not require her to be "subservient" to me in any manner.

That said, I desperately want my marriage to work. The thing is, I can't hide my transsexual nature from her like you can your crossdressing alter-ego. It just doesn't work that way.

Based upon what you have written, crossdressing does not define you. You engage in the activity, but you are a man. The same cannot be said about me, and like Rianna politely pointed out, unless you live or have lived it, you simply can't understand (through no fault of your own - and be glad you cannot).

Even though I know what I am doing is jeopardizing and risking my marriage, I cannot not do these things, and that in and of itself hurts much, and makes this sooooo much more difficult!!

A very dear friend of mine, based on what she knows about me (and she knows personally both me and my wife quite well), bluntly stated that I cannot have it both ways. In her opinion, I can either transition and seriously risk losing my marriage, or not transition, retain my marriage, but ultimately commit suicide or seriously injure myself and withdraw completely from life further on down the road.

So where does that leave me, Stephanie? Assuming this to be true, and there is no viable, legitimate alternative options, both options SUCK!!! Which is EXACTLY why I am having soooooo much difficulty with this now!!!

I mean, at least for the time being, it is an either/or scenario. There is no middle ground. And it devastates me. It crushes me into the freaking ground!! I am constantly on the verge of losing it altogether!

But this has absolutely nothing to do with whether I respect or value my wife as my partner. It has nothing to do with it at all.


The entire conversation seems to be about "What the man gets out of it!"

With all due respect, you have misunderstood the entirety of this thread. Again, through no fault of your own. First off, as Rianna pointed out, there is no man in this thread. Second, assuming you were referring to me, this thread has nothing to do about what I will "get" out of "it" or not. Simply put, I am just trying to survive this and desperately, somehow, anyhow, make my life work. Steph summed it up quite well in her response.

And KellyJameson nailed it when she earlier wrote in this thread "you pay in pain to escape pain." This is a truth that I am beginning to learn in earnest now, and it is one that I hope you never have need to experience.

[Dawn cd]

Life throws curveballs to partners in every committed relationship. So it doesn't make sense to say "I didn't sign on for this"—as though we could predict for newlyweds everything that would happen in their lifetimes. New things continually come up. People grow in different directions. Partners continually have to adapt to each other. (This is from someone who has been married for 40+ years.) Anne's SO is naturally disturbed that she has deal with a situation that is being forced on her. Yet it was forced on Anne too! In this situation one either adapts or dies. But in the meantime we need to acknowledge the pain involved and deal with that. Respecting the pain is a major part of the adapting process.

[Donna Joanne]

If I may interject my 2 cents worth, what Anne and many others like myself have had to realize is that like the old Rolling Stones song says "You can't always get what you want".

In a perfect world that we DON'T live in, every TS/CD could tell their spouse and be totally accepted by everyone and live "happily ever after". Unfortunately, that world doesn't exist. When the greater majority of us married our spouses, these women thought they were marrying men who would remain a man until "death do us part". And for some women, when their husband expresses the desire to become a female either in dress or transition, that is the "death of the man that they married", and an end to their marriage as well.

During the recent same sex marriage debates, I have casually tried to broach the subject of GD and TS with my spouse. And the reaction was what I feared, and expected knowing my wife the way I do. So if I do decide to try and transition in the future, it will not be with the acceptance, approval, support or presence of my spouse.

Many say if she really loved me, she wouldn't feel that way, and that is truly being totally unfair to her. She wants the man she married, not the woman he want to become. I know these are extremely harsh, but many times true words that must be considered when these decisions are made. In the back of her mind, she is always wanting her MAN to "come to his senses" and become her HUSBAND again.

Just my two cents worth.

[LeaP]

Donna, judging your wife based on posing a theoretical, even with past experience, isn't necessarily indicative of outcomes in this case. Most of those whose relationships have survived (or where people re-connected as friends after divorce) went through a ferocious period of anger, denial, fighting, negotiating, and sometimes worse before anything like support or acceptance peeked over the horizon. Conversely, people sometimes hopefully cite their spouse's tolerant views prior to coming out, only to run into a brick wall.

Your "live happily ever after" context is a straw man. No-one expects that. No-one. TS actutely experience their own conflicts, which manifest in a variety of ways that seriously interfere with life functioning. As a result, they have an excruciatingly realistic view of the roles of love and acceptance. I don't know anyone who believes in any version of true love automatically carrying acceptance. Many of us believe, in fact, that one of the truest expression of love is letting go of our expectations, fully freeing our spouse.

[stefan37]

And Lea that is exactly what I have done. I let my spouse go. I took the first step and moved out of our bedroom into my own room. I am giving her the space she needs to cope. Our relationship will never be what it was. Our marriage as husband and wife is ended. That ship has sailed. We have been getting alone in our business just fine and in some cases better than before. There is still plenty of anger on her part and it is difficult to notice as it is not overt. We are able to finally talk about the reality of our situation and discuss different strategies for dealing with our future. I have taken my foot off the brake and starting to push the accelerator. It is extremely hurtful and painful that we are separated and will become more separated in the foreseeable future. But in many ways I feel liberated. She seems to be happier also. Couples therapy did help us and although we have stopped as we were at an impasse, we can communicate much more truthfully. I have stated my desire to a name change DL gender marker change, surgeries I may need and she has expressed her desires and the possible outcomes. At the end of the day we are both confidant we will remain strong business partners and be good friends for the rest of our lives.

As matter of fact I told her last night and it is a bit cliche but I told I am setting her free because I love her so much. If she wants me in her life then it will be so.

[ReineD]

As matter of fact I told her last night and it is a bit cliche but I told I am setting her free because I love her so much. If she wants me in her life then it will be so.

Stefan, you might want to rethink the part about setting her free because you love her so much. I'm guessing that the decision to sleep in separate rooms is mutual, and she most likely feels the separation is caused by your having changed in a direction that she cannot follow. This is not 'setting free'.

I think it would be better to tell her that you know that things are different than she expected but you cannot change who you are, you do love her very much, and you are hoping that she will be able to change as well and stay the course with you.

[stefan37]

We both know things are different. I feel different than she does about each other. By setting her free I mean we will live together as roomates with no intimate contact as we have as man and wife for 30+ years. The business is being relocated to another location within the next 45 days. Actually I just received news the shop will be available April 29. We are both very excited about that development. Moving the business out of our home will open options to us to put the house up for sale. She has expressed that as I progress she will not be able to move along with me. The important aspect is we both are able to communicate our intentions and to discuss them honestly. To further complicate issues we are business partners and the business is both of our livelihoods. Our relationship as business professionals is very strong and I trust her with my life and finances. We both understand the changes we both are experiencing. she knows I need to do what I am doing, but it does not make it any easier on her. I sill continue to offer support as she needs it and we will always be co parents, thankfully our kids are in their early 20's. But for me I have to learn to let go and as the days go by it is becoming easier. Building our business is a nice distraction for us and we are both growing in a way we could never have before.

[Tammy V]

I have gone through the same thing with my spouse , before and after she left me. I still don't understand why she can't understand but I did get a little insight from an online conversation I had with another wife of a trans woman. She said that because she did indeed marry (what she assuemed to be) a man, had sex with her spouse, had kids and lived in the roles of husband and wife for years, she was not going to accept the fact the fact that, in essence, her spouse was a woman the whole time. Either she could not get her mind around that concept or it was threatening to her own sexuality, sanity or sense of womanhood. With some people there is no hope of gaining acceptance or support. A wife is very typically such a person. Unfortuantely we cannot change someone else. Maybe in time she will "come around" but most likely, in order for you to move forward you will have to "move on". I stll cry almost daily over the loss of my beloved spouse and best friend but in my mind I know losing her was nessesary in order for me to progress and transition. It sucks and it is not easy.

[Angela Campbell]

I wish I could tell you something that would help, Anne, but I cannot. I have never been very successful at my marriages so anything I say would likely be the wrong thing. If I could help I would.

[Kelly DeWinter]

Anne, you have answered this question.

"Where is all of this leading to?"

That is one hell of a question.

when you said

"What I have not told her, however, is that I do plan on transitioning to a woman."

in the back of her mind, I can see that she may fear that thats where this is heading, and you have NOT been honest with her. At this point you owe it to her to tell her where you plan on heading with this.

In your original post you use words like "I" and "she", relationships are about "we" and "us".

There is allways hope for long term relationships, but it takes work on both persons to make it work. Sometimes you have to take a breather to give each other a chance to adapt to changes. If you rush faster then your spouse is able to go, you may win the race, but you may also loose the prize.


I really do hope thing work out, and i understand what you are going through. I just hope you will consider what your spouses feelings are as well.

[ReineD]

She said that because she did indeed marry (what she assuemed to be) a man, had sex with her spouse, had kids and lived in the roles of husband and wife for years, she was not going to accept the fact the fact that, in essence, her spouse was a woman the whole time. Either she could not get her mind around that concept or it was threatening to her own sexuality, sanity or sense of womanhood.

I don't understand this either. Why didn't the wife you spoke to sense or feel that the person she assumed to be a man all these years was in fact not? No one who is a woman can possibly keep up the male mask every moment of every day, year after year, can she?

My SO is not transitioning yet she is not like any man that I know. There's no way that I would take it she was like other guys even if I didn't know of her trans status, and she's not even TS! And I've known several GGs who KNEW their husbands were TS way before their husbands were ready to face that fact. A person's true gender cannot help but come through if only through some cracks, especially to the person that a transwoman is most intimate with, year after year after year.

BTW, I want to add that if my SO should ever realize that she is TS, I would never feel as if my sense of womanhood or sexuality was threatened. It would be my SO's decision to transition and not mine, meaning that what she does or doesn't do does not change who I am.

So why are some of these wives so surprised?

[Tammy V]

I don't understand this either. Why didn't the wife you spoke to sense or feel that the person she assumed to be a man all these years was in fact not? No one who is a woman can possibly keep up the male mask every moment of every day, year after year, can she?

My SO is not transitioning yet she is not like any man that I know. There's no way that I would take it she was like other guys even if I didn't know of her trans status, and she's not even TS! And I've known several GGs who KNEW their husbands were TS way before their husbands were ready to face that fact. A person's true gender cannot help but come through if only through some cracks, especially to the person that a transwoman is most intimate with, year after year after year.

BTW, I want to add that if my SO should ever realize that she is TS, I would never feel as if my sense of womanhood or sexuality was threatened. It would be my SO's decision to transition and not mine, meaning that what she does or doesn't do does not change who I am.

So why are some of these wives so surprised?

Oh she wasn't surprised. It is all going according to (her) plan. When we were dating, at first at least, she may have looked at me as a "real man". But the more we were together the more of the real me came out. She used to correct some of my behavior and we actually stopped sleeping together before we got married. We never had kids. We have been together 25 years and married a little over half of that. When I fully came out to her in 2010 All physical contact ended but we had seperate rooms most of the time before that. To her credit she was the first person to make me beleive I could transition and come out to my conservative parents. She encouraged me for a couple of years to transition, but always said she would leave when I did. I tried to take it slow thinking she was coming to an understanding and she seemed supportive enough. I should be ok with it because I knew it was coming and by the time she left I had found someone else, but it still breaks my heart that she left, but mainly that she doesn't fully accept me even now. I miss my best friend so much.

What I relatged was a conversation I had with another So about their situation and it was a perspective I had never heard before but apparantly an eye opener.

[ReineD]

What I relatged was a conversation I had with another So about their situation and it was a perspective I had never heard before but apparantly an eye opener.

Right, you don't know this woman so you can't answer for her. It's just something that I hear (or read) quite often ... wives who cannot see the woman in their husbands. This is why they can't wrap their minds around the transition.

[Angela Campbell]

No one who is a woman can possibly keep up the male mask every moment of every day, year after year, can she?




Yes she can. Not forever but I did for fifty years. No one in the world knew but me. Two different marriages, three kids......Yes she can.

It is beat into you from the beginning and there is always a constant threat of ridicule, or exposure. The lessons are learned well over the years. I always knew and I always knew to hide it very well. Thus the problem as it was so well hidden no one will ever believe this has been a lifelong thing.

[LeaP]

Anne, you have answered this question.

"Where is all of this leading to?"

That is one hell of a question.

when you said

"What I have not told her, however, is that I do plan on transitioning to a woman."
...


I refer you to Anne's very next paragraph:


"But this is for a very good reason. Well, perhaps it's not a good reason, but it is a reason, nonetheless. That being, I have yet to tell or admit to myself that I am going to transition. Quite frankly, I don't know what I am going to do. Or perhaps more accurately, I am not sure if I am ready to accept and admit what I am going to do yet."

Once again, one cannot tell what one does not know. Moreover, trying to communicate the nuances of what might or might not be is fraught with difficulties. The former can trigger marital issues before their time, and perhaps for no good reason, should transition not happen. The latter can give false assurances.

The process is painful for all concerned, but it IS a process, not a situation where pat answers can be given at any time.

It may be obvious to some people that Anne will transition. Until ANNE knows she will transition, it would be imprudent to say so to her wife.

[stefan37]

Whether Anne does transition or not. she has started HRT and hormones has effect on the skin, body odors, and breast tissue. I know for my wife the skin softening was the very first change she noticed and and it happened relatively quickly in a matter of weeks. That softness of skin was a sensation she felt very uncomfortable with. The development of breast issue pushed her way over her comfort level. She can not sleep with a woman. I do not know Anne's wife and have no idea how she might react to these changes. Once the decision to take hormones is acted upon, one has taken the first step towards transition whether they admit it to themselves or not. We cannot hide the physical changes we undergo from those closest to us. So even though I have been taking my transition step by step there were certain physical changes I had no control of that caused our marriage dynamic to change, and our intimate personal interaction. Even if I had no intention of progressing further than hormones and electrolysis, My marriage dynamic changed because of the physical changes and we would still have ended up in different beds. There are many variables associated with transition that spouses must deal with and it takes a tremendous period of adjustment. Some may never adjust, some will adjust well, and even a small percentage will be actively supportive and accepting.

I understand completely not knowing where we may be heading in the beginning. A year ago Oct My wife and I had a discussion about my increasingly feminine expression and whether it would lead to transition. I told her then as truthfully as I thought it to be, it would require too much effort, time, and resources to transition. I did not have the resolve, willpower and much fear to consider transition. Fast forward 18 months, I have been therapy for 15 months, hrt for 10, and the marriage dynamic changed that I will be applying for a lawful name change, gender marker change on my DL in late Aug, early sept, and depending on timing and resources additional surgeries. Today I have the resolve, willpower, perseverance, and the only fear I had, losing my spouse has materialize. So yeah our situation can be fluid depending on how we are treading with loved ones, and what they mean to us.

[StephanieC]

So yeah our situation can be fluid depending on how we are treading with loved ones, and what they mean to us.

For me, I hope their meaning to me will not change. However, I could see getting to a point where our individual needs diverge to a point where the discomfort leads to separation. For me, I lived most of my life for others. And the concept of "individual happiness" was not something to be consciously sought. I figured that if I was a good person and associated with other good people, that happiness was the eventual conclusion. But increasingly over the years, I seemed to notice that I was being told what my life required. Only recently have I stopped to consider that there may be options.

Some people stay basically the same throughout their life: they merely turn more grey, more "padded", and slower in pace. Others continue to grow and change is constant. I wonder if that is the basic difference. The nature of the change may be the thing people react to but I think the difference in dynamics are the real impetus.

-stephani

[Debglam]

Hey Anne,

Sorry, I just saw this. I've skipped over a lot of the responses so this may have been addressed but I have a thought. Couple actually. . .

Given the specifics of your situation, do you think the visible changes (face) are more upsetting than the rest to your wife?

Also, I think Veronica had a point and have you clearly discussed "transsexual. . .transition?"

My experience has been that the things that upset my spouse about trans are things that I would consider to be minor. I really need to talk through some of these things to see what was bothering her. An issue similar to the one you mentioned is that she has held back on doing things for her and here I am as the "new girl" in the house shopping and going to the spa like some kind of Real Housewife of. . . After discussing it I clearly see how that pissed her off and the resolution was for her to start doing more things for her. I have also seen how talking around things instead of being direct actually caused her more confusion (and anxiety) than less.

Talk these issues and feelings through, either with a therapist or not, and I hope that you both can work this out.

Debby

[Ciara Brianne]

My ex asked me the same question. "Where is this going?" At the time I really didn't know the answer to that question. I had about the same concessions, but she was not comfortable with me going out en femme. We are both happier now I think. I know I am. Partly because there is no tension in the air over it and I get to be me. I hope everything works out for the best. I know a situation such as yours can bring about a lot of stress and anxiety. Hang in there. :hugs:

[Badtranny]

No one who is a woman can possibly keep up the male mask every moment of every day, year after year, can she?

Well I guess it all depends on how determined she is. ;-)

Since I had to fight my way through adolescence, I was quite resolved to be a straight man and just deal with it. My method of "keeping up the mask" included womanizing, extreme sports, and NEVER drinking alcohol lest my mask slip a bit. I never drank a drop until after my first divorce.

I've chatted with my ex since the transition and she said she would have never known. I never LET her know, in fact she never knew me at all because I used to keep everyone at a safe emotional distance so they couldn't get close enough to see. My wife didn't know me any better than my friend, who didn't know me any better than the guys I played hockey with. Nobody knew me.

Lonely? I didn't know any better.

[LeaP]

Re: Misty's response - :yt:

Funny about the distance and loneliness part. The disconnect can be profound. I've only caught myself recently realizing that I enjoyed talking with someone. It was a really weird thought the first time it happened. But I rarely felt lonely.

[Angela Campbell]

This is true. I find that most of my life I really didn't want to know most people. I have been content by myself.

[ReineD]

I've chatted with my ex since the transition and she said she would have never known. I never LET her know, in fact she never knew me at all because I used to keep everyone at a safe emotional distance so they couldn't get close enough to see. My wife didn't know me any better than my friend, who didn't know me any better than the guys I played hockey with. Nobody knew me.

This makes sense. If the relationship is disconnected and the (then) husband keeps even his wife at an emotional distance, then I agree that she could not know. Sad to say, even in some non-trans relationships there are unhappy, disconnected couples who are like two strangers living side by side. But any SO will definitely know that the relationship is disconnected.

BUT ... (always a but :D), I had in mind a marriage that WAS very connected. For decades. With kids, and good sex when they were younger, and friends. A happy marriage. I consider myself pretty average and I've got to tell you there is no way that my ex (married 30 years) could have hidden anything from me. Good lord, I even could feel it when he cheated! Even if things are not said outright, a SO's intuition is pretty strong especially when she knows her spouse intimately. In such a marriage, where the wife does feel connected to her husband, how can she not see that her spouse is a woman?

[Angela Campbell]

Reine, It is like Melissa said. When you spend a life from childhood hiding something so much a part of what you are, I don't think anyone really knows you. You end up keeping yourself disconnected from everyone. People only see what I let them see. No one knows me at all. I was married twice and I really wanted that connection but I didn't dare. I always wanted someone who loved me as much as I loved them but they couldn't because they never knew me. I see that now.

[StephanieC]

a SO's intuition is pretty strong especially when she knows her spouse intimately. In such a marriage, where the wife does feel connected to her husband, how can she not see that her spouse is a woman?

I think we are all impacted by our experience. I'm not sure that some people can see this as a (sane) possibility. So if that is not a logical/emotional possibility, would the SO consider it? If the sky cannot be cannot be green, would we ever consider the possibility?

I think the way we are raised and out experience of the world is so important to considering possibilities.

-stephani

[Kelly DeWinter]

I refer you to Anne's very next paragraph:

"But this is for a very good reason. Well, perhaps it's not a good reason, but it is a reason, nonetheless. That being, I have yet to tell or admit to myself that I am going to transition. Quite frankly, I don't know what I am going to do. Or perhaps more accurately, I am not sure if I am ready to accept and admit what I am going to do yet."
Once again, one cannot tell what one does not know. Moreover, trying to communicate the nuances of what might or might not be is fraught with difficulties. The former can trigger marital issues before their time, and perhaps for no good reason, should transition not happen. The latter can give false assurances.

The process is painful for all concerned, but it IS a process, not a situation where pat answers can be given at any time.

It may be obvious to some people that Anne will transition. Until ANNE knows she will transition, it would be imprudent to say so to her wife.



Am I missing something ? Anne is IN the process of transitioning, if starting HRT is not the first step of transitioning, I don't know what is. And yes there will probably be 1,000 plus opinions on what a 'first' step is. I personaly see HRT as a first of many steps, Anne's spouse is for all intent's and purposes being told "I am on this path , and I will keep you posted as to what I decide, when I decide" . How is a spouse suppose to react to this ?

One of the things that we as a community acknowledge and understand is that for some people the issue of "who am i" as a person is can be so overwheming, that transition in neccesary for emotional and mental health, however we also have to acknowledge that some spouses of a transgendered person, also for their emotional and mental health is to be in a relationship with a person of the same sex that tye originaly married.

I hope Anne and her spouse are able to work things out, but it looks like it will take intense communication and counseling.

[Rianna Humble]

Yes Kelly, you are missing something: the fact that Anne's wife does know about the hormones, but Anne cannot tell her what she (Anne) does not know - which is how far that will go.

[VeronicaMoonlit]

but Anne cannot tell her what she (Anne) does not know - which is how far that will go.

But here's the thing, when Anne says "she doesn't know" I think she's being deceptive and engaging in another avoidance maneuver. I don't know about you, but I don't think people whould go on a full HRT regimen like Anne is doing unless they plan on eventually transitioning. Yes I know some "serious" CD's will do a low dose, but most of those who do that end up deciding they're TS anyway.

IMHO Anne "does know" but is simply avoiding stating that fact directly, because THAT is the sticking point. As I said, Anne wants to have her cake an eat it too, but that's not happening and Anne is miserable. All these questions Anne is posing are rhetorical....Anne "knows" the answers, but doesn't want to admit the answers because that will eventually lead to Anne having to make the choice. that she resents having to make.

Sorry Anne, but it's time to "put your big girl panties on" and say directly what you want and admit that doing that will lead to a divorce.

Veronica

[StephanieC]

Sorry Anne, but it's time to "put your big girl panties on" and say directly what you want and admit that doing that will lead to a divorce.

Veronica

But is that a foregone conclusion? Perhaps she's trying to be one of the statistically few in number (who's relationship survives). Is that possible?

[VeronicaMoonlit]

Perhaps she's trying to be one of the statistically few in number (who's relationship survives). Is that possible?

Possible but not likely. And rushing into HRT without being direct and forthcoming as to her "feal goal" made that less likely. Sure sometimes a TS marriage ends up turning into one of those platonic "like sisters" things we read about...but in almost all of those cases, the wife is a progressive and was more informed earlier on (and had a longer period of time to adjust) than Anne's wife was.

Veronica
Veronica

[Angela Campbell]

I wouldn't want to tell anyone their marriage is doomed and to give up. There is always hope. It doesn't always work out but it is worth trying.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Reine..

As you are focusing on a wife's intuition maybe you could consider that people really do have very close relationships and still don't know...and that feeling you may have about how much you know about your husband can be shattered...this leads to a strong feeling of betrayal... your experience is not with transsexuals...ask a wife that had the bomb dropped....a closeted deeply repressed transsexual can hide better than the best spy...partially because the ts husband is lying to themself

+++++++++

in general i am finding some of the mind reading in this thread highly entertaining....just amazing...

its like a complete disregard for the way actual real communication works...and its especially wierd to see struggling floundering transsexual women and crossdressers lecture Anne on what she thinks or what she has decided.......
"deciding" to transition is a nebulous concept....its soft and gooey...relationship communication is an ongoing thing..its nonsensical to wake up every day and inform your wife that today you feel more less like transitioning than the day before..
A year or so ago, Anne was writing about how she loved being in the closet in cd forum..alot has changed in a very short period of time..

...of all people veronica you know this
..what do you know about deciding anyway?

[LeaP]

in general i am finding some of the mind reading in this thread highly entertaining....just amazing...

its like a complete disregard for the way actual real communication works...and its especially wierd to see struggling floundering transsexual women and crossdressers lecture Anne on what she thinks or what she has decided.......
"deciding" to transition is a nebulous concept....its soft and gooey...relationship communication is an ongoing thing..its nonsensical to wake up every day and inform your wife that today you feel more less like transitioning than the day before..


Truly. Isn't it interesting that Anne "rushed" into HRT but somehow should have told her wife sooner so she would have more time to adjust? Assumptions, assumptions ... "rushed" based on what, exactly?

[stefan37]

I highly doubt Anne rushed into hrt. She has been fighting the entire time and is still fighting. She finally acquiesced and gave estrogen a chance, and from her account has been helped tremendously. I really do not think any amount of time will allow a spouse to adjust to fact that the man they married is going to be a woman. They may given enough time be able to adjust or accept what is occurring. So by that logic give our spouse time to adjust before we start estrogen. We should suffer needlessly until they adjust and give us their support and acceptance. Well in the majority of cases it will not happen. I tried to be as honest and truthful with my wife as I could when I make the decision to transition. She had well over 6 months to adjust to the fact I was going to take estrogen. She desperately wanted me to get a second opinion before I went to see the endo. She made an appointment with a second psychiatrist for me and I kept it but the guy was an idiot and in the end he agreed I was informed and probably making the best decision for me. After hrt my wife could not deal with the physical changes and we are where are now 10 months later in separate rooms. I have no idea how much information Anne divulged to her spouse , and in some ways it is irrelevant. She made the decision to take estrogen, her spouse is unhappy with that decision and does not want to see her man that she married become a woman. We all hope that our wives will see beyond what is happening and stick by us for love. The brutal truth is that situation is rare. In my support group there are no couples where one person transitioned. There was one couple and she stayed for 3 years after ffs and srs, but last month they filed for divorce.

I make no assumptions what anybody discloses and to whom or in what time frame. I can only relate my experience as I experience it. Hopefully someone can get some value and apply it to their own situation.

[Rogina B]

Seems to me that you didn't lay down a very strong "foundation of understanding" as to how important all of this is to YOU. Now you are paying for that shortcut...

About 100 replies later in this discussion,nothing that has been said including by Anne herself,that leads me to believe that her wife was made aware that Anne's plan was to try to become a woman.

[Anne2345]

First off, I do not believe that I rushed into HRT at all. I did my homework. I discussed it with my therapists, my wife, and certain other friends and family, including some friends I have here. I made the decision to begin HRT, and being on HRT is the right thing for me. Would that I could go back and undo this decision, I would not.

Even more, I have not regretted the decision to be on HRT for even one minute since beginning. I am a much, much better person for it, and I believe this to my very core.

As for my wife, I have always been honest with her to the extent I am honest with myself. I have not lead her astray. We had many discussions about this. My wife even had one on one private time with my gender therapist about all of this. And I can assure you, my therapist did not sugar coat the reality of any of this. Nor should she have.

Regardless, at least for the time being, my wife is supportive of me being on HRT.

As for whether I know in my heart what I am ultimately going to do - maybe I do, maybe I don't. The thing is, if I do know, I am not willing to admit it to myself yet.

And maybe this has to do with fear and risk. Or maybe it doesn't. Or maybe it's a combination of things.

Still, I do recognize that if I transition I put the survival of my marriage at tremendous risk. My wife has told me as much herself. Of course, I don't blame her for feeling that way, but I have a lot invested in my marriage (as does she). And most importantly, my wife is my partner, and I love her dearly. Who wants to lose someone they love?

If I can do what I need to do, whatever that ultimately may be, and retain my marriage, then yay me, right??! I mean, I certainly can't be blamed or criticized for refusing to give up, can I? I can't be criticized or blamed for retaining hope that my wife and I may be able to survive this, right?

Also, my wife is no dummy. In fact, she is much smarter than I could ever hope to be. And she is more accomplished by far. I cannot even hold a candle to her. Nor do I even try, because there is no need - we are a team and a partnership.

So do not make the mistake of underestimating her understanding of what is going on here. Or her ability to understand it.

In any event, there are still a lot of maybes and unknowns here. This, of course, is why we all spend so much time on here in the forum, in therapy, in thoughtful and introspective reflection, in debate, or doing whatever else obsessing over these issues and questions.

To date, I have answered a lot of questions that I was unable or unwilling to answer not so very long ago. However, as do most of us here, I still have more to figure out, more to answer, more to come to terms with, and more to learn.

I'm not going to make any decisions without thorough analysis or research. I believe I have made much progress to date, and that I will continue to make progress in the future. I am not sure how such progress in the future will be defined, but we'll see.

Anyways, I am not willing to give up on my marriage yet. Neither is my wife.

[Momarie]

I think Anne knows exactly where this is leading...but is trying to ride both sides of the fence.

Whether out of fear of the great unknown, losing a spouse/family, support, being alone...who knows?

But it isn't fair to hold all the cards and then get angry and claim victim when a spouse doesn't know what she does.

As rough as this is for you Anne, you put yourself out here.
I cannot imagine what you suffer...I have a pretty good idea of what your wife does.

I can only hope this can be a catalyst for you, to find answers and maybe a little peace of mind here.

[Rianna Humble]

About 100 replies later in this discussion,nothing that has been said including by Anne herself,that leads me to believe that her wife was made aware that Anne's plan was to try to become a woman.

You may find the reason for this, if you reread Anne's words. Anne did not make her wife aware that her plan was to try to "become a woman" (whatever you mean by that) because that was not Anne's plan.

Her therapist suggested hormones as a way to relieve the dysphoria and Anne discussed this option with her wife before agreeing. The WPATH guidelines are very clear that the use of hormones is not limited to those who will eventually transition completely but that this can be used by professionals to alleviate the symptoms of dysphoria without transition in certain cases.

Neither you, Rogina, nor Veronica are qualified medical practitioners treating Anne. Your uncharitable speculation as to what may or may not be Anne's motivation is just that: speculation.

[Anne2345]

But it isn't fair to hold all the cards and then get angry and claim victim when a spouse doesn't know what she does.

Who said I was angry??! And who says I hold all the cards??!! I am neither angry, nor do I hold all the cards. At the end of the day, if my wife decides she can't take this anymore, or that she no longer feels the same about me as she once did because of this, she can kick my ass out. THAT is a pretty damn big card SHE holds, in my view. I have needs that I most address, or I will literally lose my mind, go insane, and die inside. I am barely functional in day to day life as it is. I am barely holding it together as is. If my wife so chooses, and it's not like I wouldn't understand, she can end our relationship this very moment. That is a powerful, powerful card over MY life that she holds.

As for being a victim - I did not CHOOSE this. I did not ASK for this. I have no CHOICE in the matter. But I get that my wife did not ask for this, either. She does not want it. It is what it is, though. And what it is is grossly unfair to both of us.


As rough as this is for you Anne, you put yourself out here.

True. I did put myself out here. But you know what? I did so because I was desperate. I did so because I wanted to DIE. I did so because I had very real thoughts of suicide on a regular basis. The thought of stripping my sweet, beautiful daughter of her innocence and childhood in this manner, though, caused me to completely break down crying hysterically more times than I care to count. That I still had such thoughts anyways scared the hell out of me. During those dark days when my GD is at its worst, I care about NOTHING except her. Bringing her into this world is the single most important thing I have ever done and will ever do. She is my rock, to the extent anything CAN be my rock. Still, I have wanted to die. I have wanted to kill myself. I have wanted a drunk driver to just randomly plow the **** out of me on the road and obliterate my ass from this cold, cruel, ****ed up world.

I HAVE TO DO THESE THINGS TO MAINTAIN MY SANITY AND SURVIVE!!!

Deciding to pursue HRT and ultimately beginning it was the single best decision I have made. True, I made the decision for myself, and perhaps you can argue I did so selfishly.

But here's the deal - that was the first REAL decision that actually matters that I have ever made for ME in my entire life. I did it for ME!! And it felt DAMN good!!! It was absolutely necessary. Most importantly, doing so gave me hope that perhaps I can make my life work.

Because in the end, if I go nuts, loss my job because I can't function in life, and kill myself because I am a complete, total, irreconcilable mess, WHO does that serve??!! Not my wife. That's for sure. And definitely not my daughter. Nor does it serve my friends, family, or community. It serves no one but me.

On the other hand, if I progress forward, and somehow get my shit together, I certainly serve myself. But I also serve my daughter, hopefully my wife, and my friends and family.

So did I really put myself out here??!! I am not so sure that I did. I think circumstance put me out here. Because between the choices and decisions I have made, in comparison to the alternative, it's not really a choice or decision I have made at all, is it?

Simply put, what it is is survival. Just plain and simple survival.

[melissaK]

Even more, I have not regretted the decision to be on HRT for even one minute since beginning. I am a much, much better person for it, and I believe this to my very core.

So did I really put myself out here??!! I am not so sure that I did. I think circumstance put me out here. Because between the choices and decisions I have made, in comparison to the alternative, it's not really a choice or decision I have made at all, is it? . . . Simply put, what it is is survival. Just plain and simple survival.

Anne, it is survival, but, its not survival of the corpus, it is survival of our heart, our essence, our soul.

Relax, let go a minute or two and reflect on the interplay between what you FEEL and what you THINK. You opened up a couple posts upthread with the first quote. This sure sounds like your heart speaking. Then in your next post you sorta disavow yourself, and say you were forced into it. That's your head speaking. (I have the same freaking post in my past somewhere, but I digress . . .)

Over in another thread today Misty said:
It's a decision your heart makes, your head will decide against it every time.

Anne, You know Misty has this right. YOU KNOW this.

You began HRT, and thus you began transition when after a long battle your head finally got cornered by your heart, and it had to go along.

Your head is facile, elusive. But your heart will corner it again . . .

[Angela Campbell]

But here's the deal - that was the first REAL decision that actually matters that I have ever made for ME in my entire life. I did it for ME!! And it felt DAMN good!!! It was absolutely necessary. Most importantly, doing so gave me hope that perhaps I can make my life work.


There it is. You can spend a lifetime doing what makes others happy. First your parents when a child, then friends and siblings, then a spouse and kids. Why then is it wrong when it is time to do for yourself? I have made a decision like this only one time before and that was when I divorced my first wife. It was a nightmare that disrupted my life for several years. You know what, in the long run it was one of the best things I ever did. It was hard at the time but now many years later I see it was the best thing for me and the kids. Now it is time to make a decision for me again. I am going to become ...ME. How can that be wrong? Anne, is it wrong to be who you really are?

[suzy1]

There it is. You can spend a lifetime doing what makes others happy. First your parents when a child, then friends and siblings, then a spouse and kids. Why then is it wrong when it is time to do for yourself? I have made a decision like this only one time before and that was when I divorced my first wife. It was a nightmare that disrupted my life for several years. You know what, in the long run it was one of the best things I ever did. It was hard at the time but now many years later I see it was the best thing for me and the kids. Now it is time to make a decision for me again. I am going to become ...ME. How can that be wrong? Anne, is it wrong to be who you really are?

You could be talking about me here Ellen. You are so right!

Anne, this is good advice. The only way to be really happy is to be the real you.

[Joanna41]

Dearest Anne...

Wow...it's been a very long time since we have chatted in any kinda way. Both Hope and I have missed chatting with you. As I have read many of these posts it seems that you are on the defensive side of this and I understand why. So if I may put my 2 cents in...first off thank you for acknowledging that killing yourself wasn't the way to go. Your daughter does deserve your love weither it's in male mode or female mode. Children are more resilient then we give them credit for. She will always have your love and she will always need it. I'm not gonna say what you need because I'm not walking in your shoes. I will say what may be helpful is that despite what issues you and your wife are having you may want to consider just thinking about yourself first. I know you want and deserve to be happy and to do that, what for you needs to be accomplished? After you figure that out then work on the next issue important to you. Eventually you will tackle all of them and while not all issues will be resolved positively you will have addressed them the best that you could have. I know you will do what you feel is right for
yourself and when you do all the rest will fall into its place and your daughter will love you no less.

Joanna

[Kelly DeWinter]

Anyways, I am not willing to give up on my marriage yet. Neither is my wife.

It's very reassuring, that the both of you are willing to fight for your marriage. This is one of the most difficult things a marriage can face. It is encouragingto know that many familes have made the transition if and or when it occurs.


You may find the reason for this, if you reread Anne's words. Anne did not make her wife aware that her plan was to try to "become a woman" (whatever you mean by that) because that was not Anne's plan.


She man not have made her aware, but it seems clear from th OP that her spouse fears at least at one moment during their discussion/argument, that that is what is happening and that her reaction was not what Anne expected or wanted to hear.



We are all pulling for you Anne, You have so many other things on your plate right now, that I may seem at times the mountain is too high. Keep trudging and you'll reach the summit.

Kelly

[Kaitlyn Michele]

this just keeps going on...

i see there is a point of view people have expressed that communications may be an issue...well, duh...

things happen in real time.people express things through words and actions and its an imperfect thing...

for those of you that have "Decided to not transition" or "have no plan to transition", piping in to tell anne what she's done wrong,
i have some news for you...it doesn't work that way, and you may end up having some very hard life lessons coming your way...

part of coming to terms with something like this is that you fight it.. you don't want to feel this way...and it makes communications much less black and white than the pabulum about having guts to face the downside or telling the truth...the truth and the downsides move around...decisions are not decisions...you don't wake up on tuesday and "decide"...and if you do, by thursday you are undecided again...this happens over time and yes, it can be a lot of drama...maybe this is actually the best place to get out the drama so you can do your best in your life...

you think you have managed your life..you think you have managed your gender dysphoria...you can try to set anne straight and handle her wife with the same honesty as you...
it doesn't work that way...i had mine managed, anne had hers...melissa had hers...April had hers, kathyrn had hers..frances, arbon...on and on...
...others here are working on it, praying it will stop....but they know what i'm saying.

....unless of course you are just better at managing than all of us, that you love your wife and family more than we did....

also, i did not read anything about anne putting this on her wife..i just see a lot of disclosure that i bet helps her a lot to work through her end of this even tho people keep attacking her for it..

[ReineD]

This thread has taken several turns just as all long threads do, one of them being the eternal discussion between TSs & CDs about whether a married TS "should" or "should not" transition based on having made prior familial commitments, i.e, marriage and parenthood. Another tangent was whether Anne had been thoroughly honest with her wife or not, complicated by the fact that Anne doesn't currently have all the answers either.

But really what underlies all of this are individual hopes. If a wife is on-board with the transition there is no issue, is there?

So this is my analysis of Anne's current situation.

1. Anne and Wife love each other and are both committed parents. I also know that Anne & Wife are committed to their quite public careers.

2. Anne began taking HRT to relieve debilitating GD in an environment that, needless to say, does not embrace transsexualism and transition.

3. Wife was aware of the full extent of Anne's unhappiness and suicidal thoughts, and fully supports HRT.

4. Anne HOPED #3 meant that Wife accepted that Anne is not a man, and there is a chance that Wife might support full transition should current measures to keep GD at bay not be sufficient. Anne gave Wife materials to read and further, Wife spoke to the therapist, in an effort to educate Wife as to the full potential ramifications of severe GID.

5. Even though Wife was given materials that explained how far this could all go, Wife HOPED (quite naturally in my opinion) that HRT was similar to anti-depressants and it was a sufficient measure to relieve Anne's GID. Wife may also be aware that HRT does have different effects on people and Wife may have also HOPED that Anne might be one of the people who do not grow breasts.

6. Anne now realizes that wife still sees her as a man. Anne also feels anxious because she feels torn between her very survival and losing wife, child, and career, in fact, everything.

7. Anne's wife feels torn because she is beginning to feel as if she is losing a husband, in view of Anne seeking yet another step (electrolysis) that will align her body closer to a female's.

What perplexes me about so many of the discussions in this thread, is that the process of full realization, assessment, and decision about this situation should happen at the snap of fingers, after having read a book, and after having spoken to a therapist. There are many things to weigh here, many feelings to explore, and it is a Process that is anything but linear!

My heart goes out to everyone involved here, equally. It's a damn tough situation as we've seen in this section over and over again, and to place blame on anyone or to argue about "shoulds" and "shouldn'ts" is pointless in my opinion.

So Anne, I'm wishing you, your wife, and your daughter the best possible outcome for this very difficult and heartbreaking situation.

:love:

[melissaK]

@Reine: nicely summarized. I also think that Anne may still have one foot in the same camp as her wife on #5 - hoping that HRT was similar to anti-depressants and it alone would be a sufficient measure to relieve Anne's GID.

Thus, I think Anne herself has some issues "fully accepting" that HRT isn't relieving her GD all by itself, and that a full transition is still on her life path. That would explain a lot of Anne's vacillations, and give reason to the underlying communication issues with her wife - they both are still hoping GD goes away without any more concessions to Anne changing herself.

Anne knows her inner heart, and after HRT was started and took hold, Anne would be the first to know that HRT hasn't been enough to permanently quench GD. And Anne is trying to avoid breaking the bad news to her wife. The effort to just start electrolysis like it was no big deal, was an attempt to soften the disclosure of the underlying fact HRT alone wasn't enough. Her wife being smarter than Anne, called her on it, and wants Anne to say it "outloud." The say it "outloud" thing is significant, and it underlies the whole field of cognitive counselling. We change ourselves when we say something "outloud" in the presence of another. Anne's wife no doubt know's Anne's own self acceptance issues, and she may in fact be trying to help Anne along. Anne's wife is in love with Anne too (according to Anne), and it's not a stretch to think she wants Anne to learn to be happy.

And of course my observations run the fine line of knowledge obtained by experience, and opinions made by me projecting my own issues on to others, as all of this was, or is, me too. While my inner voice has "known" transition would be my path since about age 13, accepting it, saying it "outloud," and doing it, has been a lifelong undertaking. And I'm no better than Anne at the self acceptance thing. I too have a wife I'm in love with and who I don't want to give up a relationship with. I too have tried to soften the blow of the bad news that I need to change more. I still do it, I am still that way with my wife. And while I acknowledge my fear, that I am afraid of just how deeply alone as I am going to feel if my wife isn't in my bed with me at night, it takes a lot of self control for me to stop acting on that fear, and most days I come up short.

So I join you Reine in wishing Anne and her family the best possible outcome . . .

[Barbara Ella]

Just Human Nature.

I know we all are wishing Anne and her family all the best as she continues to advance and really find herself.

A lot of responses, mine included, questioned whether the wife understood or comprehended, and whether discussions were effective, etc. I now realize all of those responses may be irrelevant.

What we are seeing here is typical of the human nature when presented with a challenge. Anne and her family, myself and my family, and many others here who have paired, share the same difficulty. A lifetime bonding, which we see in species who cannot verbalize it, and which we spend endless hours discussing, is the ultimate blending of two beings and their total makeup. It takes two beings, blending perfectly to manage this level of bonding. Our problem is that our spouse, whose being is completely matched to ours, does not know that an integral part of our being is a woman. Whether we knew it, or told them about it, the wife's being just simply fit with who we were, totally, unquestioning.

The problem arises when they are made aware that a major part of our being is that of a woman. Their mentally aware world has been challenged and put into direct conflict with their mentally unaware bonded world. Whether they are accepting of us as a woman or not, they are in conflict, an internal conflict that may be totally unspoken. All the education and discussions and crying and hand holding cannot remove this internal conflict, although the individual may be able to suppress it.

Should the wife become aware of the bonding and accept the fact that her bonding was attracted to a woman, there is still conflict in the acceptance and change being imposed on the lifetime bonding. The conflict is never removed, even if minimized.

So periodically, it is to be expected that this conflict will surface. Maybe only in passing sadness, with no action, or perhaps in a verbal response parsed in the anger of confusion and uncertainty. These episodes are part of the acceptance progression, and can represent their desire to share in our angst by attempting to assume responsibility for the actions being taken. Being so closely bonded, they feel the internal need to be a part of the process, even if inelegantly spoken.

So, I am hopeful that Anne has not suffered a setback, but has seen the surfacing of the concerns of a lifetime bonded individual who is beset with conflict as her wife's world is being rocked. These reactions are just human nature when the bonding appears to be threatened. Take heart dear Anne. Yes the conflict may tear worlds apart, but one can never lose the bonding that is real, and to have your wife's acceptance for such a long time indicates strength.

Just my ramblings as I begin the process of bringing my wife into my world. Maybe too rosy, but i need all the good thoughts I can muster.

Hugs to all,

Barbara

[Lynnmorgan451]

So periodically, it is to be expected that this conflict will surface. Maybe only in passing sadness, with no action, or perhaps in a verbal response parsed in the anger of confusion and uncertainty. These episodes are part of the acceptance progression, and can represent their desire to share in our angst by attempting to assume responsibility for the actions being taken. Being so closely bonded, they feel the internal need to be a part of the process, even if inelegantly spoken...


This is so beautifully written...I just have to say....I am really happy that I / we/ all have each other as a resource for such in depth and valuable perspective. :-)

[Kathryn Martin]

So why are some of these wives so surprised?

I am not sure that surprise is really the right emotion. I think that there is a lot of illusion among those who feel suddenly they have been a girl all of their lives facts to the contrary. You are quite right that no woman can mask her nature all of the time. It is impossible or a grand illusion. Most women masking what their nature is, are constantly in danger of having their nature leak everywhere. Because of it they are odd, weird in their attempt to mask, mask and mask more - and considered strange. Many women in this situation experience everything from emotional cruelty to physical violence on top of their own confusion and inability to come to terms with their strange bodies, until they finally take the step.

If a spouse is surprised then this element cannot have been present. Or if it was, then the illusion may have been created by a wish in the face of facts. The confluence of this with a fundamental abdication of the covenant struck at marriage by the husband in the relationship which comes with full transition may be felt as an attack on the spouses integrity and self image.

You did put a finger on something very fundamental to the question of who is what.

[ReineD]

You did put a finger on something very fundamental to the question of who is what.

Thanks Kathryn, I try.