The war on Breasts

[Lynnmorgan451]

My wife has brought it to my attention that she hates the fact that I have boobie buds and wants to correct this......She says that if its more important to have breasts then it is to have her attention I'm going to lose her....ugh :straightface:
are we doomed?

[JohnH]

"Correcting this" means surgery to remove the breast buds if you are far along as I see it. I think that procedure is needless mutilation, and if were in your shoes, I would tell my wife to "Lump it".

My point is if you knuckle under and yield to this unreasonable demand she will find something else to criticize you.

In my case my body is becoming more and more like a genetic woman with the soft skin texture, fat redistribution, and breasts. However, I still speak with a masculine voice and wear mostly masculine clothing in public so my wife still can identify me as her husband. Also I have chosen to retain my masculine name.

John

[nhlighthouse]

stop it now or it will always be a TIT for a TAT!
My wife has brought it to my attention that she hates the fact that I have boobie buds and wants to correct this......She says that if its more important to have breasts then it is to have her attention I'm going to lose her....ugh :straightface:
are we doomed?

[traci_k]

It seems like there is more going on. She told your best friend without telling you and now a quasi-ultimatum. You need to start talking to her to see if there is an agenda.
Best Wishes,

[Lynnmorgan451]

Its starting to feel like any compromise I am willing to make is met in force with these quasi-ultimatums....Last year it was my hair. It got to the point where I was so angry and frustrated trying to grow out my hair that I took the dog trimmer and shaved my head bald, just to prove to her that I would do anything for her, in compromise. But every step I take, I take two back steps to accommodate the next ultimatum style compromise....I told her that with diet and exercise that my boobies would most likely not grow any larger and she said "well someday when we can afford the surgery, we're gonna have them removed" I KNOW this will never happen. But I have to HAVE TO find some way to warm her up to my future self before a great implosion takes out our marriage.

[melissaK]

“The key here is appearance. No matter how supportive the friend or partner may be while transition is still in the talking stage, the first sign of physical change almost invariably forces a reassessment of that support. It may not necessarily mean a complete loss of the relationship, but as the transition progresses, the interchange between the two parties typically undergoes a radical “redefinition. I have noticed that the more intimate the relationship before transition, the more likely the relationship will be radically changed.”

Excerpt From: Anne Vitale PhD. “The Gendered Self.” Flyfisher Press, 2010-01-04. iBooks.

Stuck this quote in Anne's (our Anne2345, not Anne Vitales) current thread. Seems to fit here too.

You are at a point where pressure to not transitition will mount - no way around it. It varies with everyone's life. The consequences of transitioning mount and are challenging. Anne Vitales online book is a quick read, and is worth reading to help alert you to what may or may not be ahead in your circumstances.

Staying the course is hard. Those who quit increase their risk of landing in our groups suicide attempt and suicide statistics. All of which just means we can't take these events lightly - for some of us our life is at stake.

You seem really dependent upon your marriage. I'm not saying you divorce, but are you preparing yourself for such an eventuality? Do you have insight into why "you'd make any compromise for her"? Have you explained GD is beyond your conscious control and you can't compromise this away? Everyone here and Anne Vitale will tell you transitioning is a selfish act. Can you be that selfish?

And if you weather the budding breasts, what are you going to do when HRT reduces your erection size? That conversation is way harder that having man boobs. (I have had both these conversations with my wife over the years - yes years. I denied I was transitioning to myself and her, I said things like HRT is the only thing for GD control. And as warped as that was it was enough of an excuse for our marriage to endure - barely though.)

My relationship with my wife is my toughest hurdle. I was very dependent on it, on her, for a lot of my emotional stability. I spent a lot of last year working on my independent self esteem and gaining insight into the emotional dependence. I'm not free, I still find my wife magic, but I stand alone now, and move my transition along on a timeline I sketched out. I want her along, and I make no bones about the fact I am paying more attention to her than ever as an off set to me doing the most selfish thing I have ever done.

I delayed my transition 20 years to have this marriage with her. It's been worth every day of it. But at the same time these 20 years of fighting off GD came at a huge personal toll. GD is a relentless hunter. Like Kaitlyn said over in Annes thread, it will come back, and it will be worse.

I say all this because you sort of say you will stop transitioning only short term, not long term, just to get your wife on board. You may be tempted to stall for 20 years too. Be really really careful. I barely made it through.

[Megan Thomas]

are we doomed?

To be brutally honest, unless she comes around over time then I think the probability is quite high.

[arbon]

Are you transitioning? If you are she probably does not want to be married to a woman.
If your not and you want to keep your marriage then compromise.

[sandra-leigh]

If what you have is breast buds only, then chances are that if you do not take estrogen or testosterone blockers either, the buds will be pretty much reabsorbed. This is not guaranteed, though; if you research gynecomastia you will find at least one paper that (based upon autopsies) estimates up to a 54% prevalence of some degree of gynecomastia.

[Lynnmorgan451]

estimates up to a 54% prevalence of some degree of gynecomastia.

Are you saying that applies to EVERY man? Like most men autopsied had to some degree, breast tissue?

[Donna Joanne]

Yes Lynn, we all have breast tissue. If we didn't, the estrogen would have nothing to cause to grow. The different between genetic male and female is the amount of estrogen and testosterone that is released during puberty. Males get testosterone, and beards, thickening vocal cords, etc. And females get widened pelvic bones, breasts, etc.

[AllieSF]

Are you transitioning? If you are she probably does not want to be married to a woman.
If your not and you want to keep your marriage then compromise.

This is what appears to be the key factor. I think that you said in another post that you are on HRT. If that is the case, you are transitioning and who you are will always be compromised and the frustrations will get bigger. If you are transitioning and your wife still does not get what it really means, I suggest you get her back to that counselor or therapist and have her get another very clear explanation of what you are doing and how it will affect you over the short and long term. It is not easy for anyone to see this type of change in the person they love and have committed to spend the rest of their life with. If after further counseling, jointly and maybe separately for her later, she does not want anything to do with where you are going, then you know the routine that will most likely follow. Good luck and keep that loving and patient relationship going as best possible.

[Chari]

Lynn, You are like everyone of us - an individual with needs that will satisfy YOU!!! IMO, if you give in (again) where will it end? When one truly loves another, it matters not what their appearance or actions, but what they give from their heart.

[sandra-leigh]

Are you saying that applies to EVERY man? Like most men autopsied had to some degree, breast tissue?

See here (http://www.ccjm.org/content/71/6/511.full.pdf) which is simply the first reference in my search


Gynecomastia is common. In two case series, palpable breast tissue was detected on physical examination in 36% of healthy younger adult men, 57% of healthy older men,{1}
and more than 70% of hospitalized elderly men.{2} In autopsy studies, its prevalence was as high as 55%.{3}

Gynecomastia has three peaks of occurrence during the life span:

The neonatal period. An estimated 60% to 90% of infants have transient gynecomastia due to transplacental transfer of maternal estrogens. It usually regresses completely by the end of the first year.

Puberty. Gynecomastia may occur in 48% to 64% of boys at puberty. It may first appear as early as 10 years of age, with a peak onset between ages 13 and 14, followed by a decline in late teenage years.

Late in life. The highest prevalence is among men ages 50 to 80. {1,2}

[Lynnmorgan451]

if you give in (again) where will it end? When one truly loves another, it matters not what their appearance or actions, but what they give from their heart.

In divorce court......and what you said about love? Only in a perfect puritanical world devoid of 2nd and 3rd marriages...I think I am headed to a place she will not follow..At what point do I start planning for a future, post "give up on this marriage"?

Allie, Yes I am on HRT and I have been for 19 months now, only she thinks I stopped 8 months ago and I've been secretly on it ever since...My life is a mess and at this point have no idea what to do.

[JohnH]

I told her that with diet and exercise that my boobies would most likely not grow any larger and she said "well someday when we can afford the surgery, we're gonna have them removed" I KNOW this will never happen. But I have to HAVE TO find some way to warm her up to my future self before a great implosion takes out our marriage.

Ugh! She is trying to manipulate you. She sounds like a totally unreasonable person - I agree you need to draw a line in the sand and stand your ground. Get counselling and if she will not compromise I say be prepared to drop her like a hot potato. Again I say if you mutilate your body she will find something else to belly-ache about unless she changes and is willing to compromise.

Don't count on your breasts not continuing to grow. Like you I have been on HRT for 19 months, and my breasts are getting to the point where in the near future I will have to switch from B cup bras to C cup. As far as the breast issue is concerned, my wife finds it hilarious. She has called me "titty boy", she has compared me to a statue of a Greek goddess ("That's you, John") and compared the boobs of an actress to mine.

Your mistake was telling your wife 8 months ago that you stopped HRT. If you are anything like me I am a lot calmer and easier to get along with the HRT, so much my wife wants me to continue. I would really hate to quit the HRT, and if my wife forced me to get a double mastectomy I would find it awfully hard to keep on living.

I remember a case where one of the participants of Crossdressers.com was required by his wife to keep facial hair most of the time, and the wife was really being manipulative. He tried to work with his wife, but the marriage broke up anyway. Then I heard he went the whole nine yards to become a female with HRT and ultimately SRS.

John

[kellycan27]

Your so called " compromises " are only token. Cutting off your hair... Really? Telling her that through diet and exercise your boobs will probably not grow further, but secretly taking hormones behind her back... You flat out lied. How is there compromise when it's only one sided? You transition and she just has to suck it up? Is that the idea of compromise?
You aren't compromising... you're just telling her what you think she wants to hear while you move forward with your transition. Stop playing the victim and be honest... If its only with yourself.

[Rianna Humble]

I'm sorry Lynn, but how can you get upset when you lie to your wife and she does not like the direct outworking of that lie?

You then compound it by lying to her again instead of coming clean and saying that you did not respect her enough to tell her the truth about continuing HRT.

It seems to me that you need to sit down and work out what you want to do with this relationship. If you want it to continue, find a way of communicating honestly with your wife.

If you don't value the relationship then her negative reaction to your lies won't make any difference to you.

[Lynnmorgan451]

Your so called " compromises " are only token. Stop playing the victim and be honest... If its only with yourself.

you're right. But I never claimed to be a victim. I merely request perspective on my situation. I appreciate your words so much you have no idea! I want the best of both worlds. Yes you're right, I am LYING to her and we lie to each other all the time. We've both had affairs, we've both been caught in lies so many times it'd make any sane persons head spin. BUT we are still together..for some strange reason. After all the attempts of both of us to crush the other one, we are still together. The reason I posted this thread was because I wanted to hear what you all thought because its from the perspective of trans people. I mean, dont you understand the necessity for transition regardless of how controlling your wife or LIFE is? What am I doing here?!? Why even try?? The reason I said I would stop taking hormones was because I didn't want to lose her to one of the many ultimatums I've been given. Every one so far, INCLUDING surgical breast removal, I told her "yes someday when we can afford it, sure, I'll cut my tits right off for you baby" I mean, I almost feel like....crying now

[CharleneT]

In divorce court......and what you said about love? Only in a perfect puritanical world devoid of 2nd and 3rd marriages...I think I am headed to a place she will not follow..At what point do I start planning for a future, post "give up on this marriage"?

Allie, Yes I am on HRT and I have been for 19 months now, only she thinks I stopped 8 months ago and I've been secretly on it ever since...My life is a mess and at this point have no idea what to do.

You need to go strait to a marriage consuler, especially one with experience with trans issues. But dont' wait for that if you have trouble finding a specialist - your marriage is in major trouble and the slippery slope is already pretty slick. Both of you need to sit down and get honest about the future - any decent marriage therapist can help you with that. You cannot hope to lie about things like cross gender hormonal therapy and stay married... it is not fair to you or your wife. It seems to me that her ultimatums are attempts at gaining some control over what she likely sees as a run-away train. Go get help or expect the worst. Sorry to be negative...

[kellycan27]

Ask and you shall receive.. You got both my perspective and what I think. Both of which comes from the someone who has transitioned. Sorry if that wasn't what you wanted to hear... But you did ask.

[Lynnmorgan451]

Thank you Charlene. That sounds like a good idea. The only problem is right now, I know that sitting down at the table and laying out my hand will be the equivalent of a formal request for divorce papers. At this point, I've made some mistakes and I know she has, too. I don't blame her because the run away train thing is dead on accurate. She knows whats happening and she wants to stop it before we cross the point of no return, which we're teetering on with this whole breasts issue. This is where I have to choose between me or her. I know it sounds ridiculous but you know what I mean...I've always been the person to make sacrifices for the greater good. ALWAYS and now this one thing, I just can't shake it. I can't just let go of my identity and wear a costume the rest of my life..Can I? Won't these what if's become too much some day? Do I really want to give this up just to regret it when I'm 70, that I never actually existed? I'm scared. I'm seriously scared right now

[JohnH]

As far as affairs and lies - if your marriage survives it will be a miracle. Get counselling right away and come clean with your wife. The affair aspect is something that I am really concerned about. I think affairs would damage a marriage far more than being up front with your M2F HRT with your wife. You and your wife are going to have to sort things out so both of you can live at peace either in marriage or separated. I feel for you Lynne and you have to be true to yourself and not let your wife make your life a living hell.

We are different from most men. So I understand the extreme desire to be feminine.

You have to love your wife and not do things behind her back. Any crossdressing I do is upfront with my wife, as well as the HRT.

John

[kellycan27]

I am not suggesting that you stop transitioning, but rather stop bullshitting her. Sit her down and tell her exactly where you want to go with this and let her decide whether this is something that she can live with ( although I think you already know the answer). Stop the token compromises.. They mean nothing to you and are only an attempt to placate her temporarily.
It's just smoke and mirrors... You have no intention but to transition.

[EnglishRose]

My compromise with my spouse was going relatively slowly. At the same time though, we talked with everything out in the open and she always knew I was going to transition.

Lying isn't going to warm her up to your future self... it'll heat the marriage to boiling point to something exploding.

[Lynnmorgan451]

I'm listening.....I feel really bad about lying. I can't stand it! I'm pretty sure shes not ready to hear what I have to say and this is my selfish way of keeping her for as long as possible. I have been wrong before! haha...When have I ever been right!?

[noeleena]

Hi,

Will there ever be a time you stop lieing to each other i very much dought it'll ever happen your friendship relastionship seems to be built on lie after lie, so there is no trust is there, infact none what ever,

You S O said as you have told us she surports you, & then does not . lets look at why the change in attitude in other words get to the bottom of what do you both wont/ need out of this relastionship as youv both messed around out side of your suposed relastionship. you may be still together , really not when theres no trust in each other. theres not much to build a healthy relastiondhip on .

You both need to work out where your both going ether together or apart , i dought that your both happy at each others throats,

Can you both sit down quietly & explain to each other what needs to be done for you both,

...noeleena...

[CharleneT]

. . .

This is where I have to choose between me or her. I know it sounds ridiculous but you know what I mean...I've always been the person to make sacrifices for the greater good. ALWAYS and now this one thing, I just can't shake it. . . .

You are welcome, but think hard about this. You said putting your cards on the table will end things ? Maybe ... but unless you stop, don't you think that your current route is going to have the same affect ? IF you talk now, maybe your marriage can be saved.

You said "... and now this one thing..." you need to realize that to your wife, this one thing is huge, the biggest, over-powering. She is losing the man she married, by his own hand. That ain't "one thing".

[josee]

If you feel bad then that should be a pretty good indication for what you need to do. End the lying and come clean with yourself and her about who you are and what you really want your life to be. It is already taking a toll on your self esteem.

[JohnH]

Meanwhile while you two are resolving your differences and telling your wife the truth show kindness and consideration to your wife. If she sees you are being kind and helpful to her she just might be more willing to accommodate your personality better.

John

[Julie Hall]

I'm afraid all I can do is parrot the group and suggest you come clean and stop lying. Sure your marriage might end, but it is the only way you might possibly save your marriage.