Of duality

[Carlene]

The man within me is someone I am not overly fond of. By most people's standards, I suppose he is respected, viewed as effective, capable and perhaps, to some degree, caring. He is also defensive, competetive, and aggressive.

Found more deeply inside this body is someone who has an acute respect for the essence of women. A respect so profound that, given the choice I might prefer to be a woman. Sadly, this isn't something that can be seriously contemplated. I am predominantly male, I know how to be a man; my circle of people know me as one, and frankly, I would just have too much to learn about being a woman to be successful at this stage in my life.

I regret, though, that society won't allow men to dress, feel, and share in the wonders of womanhood. There could be much said about this but, for now, I just wish to express my sorrow for not being accepted as part male and part female. More than that, I regret that I cannot nurture and grow the feminine within me without friction and societal pressures.

Thank you all for reading and being the support you are each and every day.

Carlene:daydreaming:

[kellycan27]

Society is less a hinderance to your dressing than probably you are. Some people may have an issue with it, but to use "society" as a whole.. Isn't really accurate. I think that a lot of people blame society when in reality it's more their own shame, guilt, embarrassment, fear or what have you. Just saying.

Kel

[Beverley Sims]

Carlene, I think you have to overcome your own mental blocks.
Are you overthinking the situation?

[boink]

As others have suggested, perhaps the biggest impediment to living as you want is within yourself. Yes, there are certainly societal pressures to act and dress a certain way, but there's a lot of space left within that still to not always conform.

The other question then for me would be, if you feel you are not overly fond of your male self and cannot fully express your female self are there ways in which you can work to improve yourself and nurture your innate femininity (without necessarily being overtly female)?

[Gretchen_To_Be]

Carlene, I am a kindred spirit. By most standards I am a very successful man--husband, father, provider, business exec, military veteran--and yet I have a feminine side. I'd love to be able to express it more, but that would cause my wife, kids, employer, etc. to fundamentally change their view of me. It's just not important enough for me to risk all the wonderful things in my life for what is really a flight of fancy.

My passion for women's clothing is limited to certain styles, and I think the more mundane aspects of being a woman would quickly bore me, so I believe I am firmly in the fetishistic CD camp. I will never be a TS or try to live as a woman, despite my wife's doubts.

Still, I daydream of wearing a skirt suit with hose and stiletto pumps to work once in a while. I suppose daydreams and dressing sessions behind closed doors are enough.

[Carlene]

Yes Shibumi, I think you understand. People in our inner circles are also a part of society and the values of these people count in our lives.

[KellyJameson]

You write well....

I have often wondered how much of crossdressing is done out of a acute sense of respect for women.

I have noticed that many crossdressers hold women in very high esteem and if by emulating them they are trying to feel this same esteem for themselves.

It would be interesting to know if this is a driving force behind some who physically transition.

Women are defensive, competitive and aggressive and I often wonder why men think that they are morally superior to men.

Perhaps you have to be a woman to see this so each sex carries a blindness of the other sex that is imposed on them by nature.

It would be a tragedy to identify as a man but wish to reject yourself because you think you are morally inferior to women when the true course would be to improve that which you disapprove of about yourself.

To escape aspects of yourself that you are morally offended by through the use of the illusion of becoming someone else still leaves you in possesion of those aspects.

There is zero difference morally between the sexes and it is only the potential to be immoral that differs from person to person.

The expression or lack of expression is not a true measure of the good or evil someone carries inside them.

Be careful not to absorb the hate of others because you are a man and than to turn this hate inward against yourself through moral condemnation because you think you are morally inferior as a man symbolic of all men versus a woman as symbolic of all women.

This will turn into self loathing that has been injected into you by others and leave you not seeing clearly why or how you have been filled with self rejection as self loathing.

[Carlene]

Kelly, I think whether it be innate or the result of culture, it must be admitted that women are different from men in many aspects, at least in general terms. For example, they are nurturing, laugh more easily.................and then there is the physicality.(:-). I appreciate your opinions, though, and will give them careful consideration.

[DawnD]

We are just as diverse as everyone here. I am not a nurturing person naturally, which is something that women are supposed to be inherently good at. It's something I have to work at. I can be aggressive when warranted, but it's not my default mode. I can be defensive when necessary. And I am competetive, but mostly when I'm competing with men. These are not bad traits. They are only bad when they are used to detriment of others.

I most definately understand why someone would want to emulate the female form. It's beautiful is it not? I have never put women on a pedastal. Your sex has absolutely nothing to do with why I put someone there. There are some amazing things that women are capable of, but so are men. I just have problems with alot of women I have met as far as personality and depth. I have also met some pretty shallow men. There are some pretty amazing gems out there, but I have found my share of crazies.

If asked, I would say I personally prefer the company of men. From personal experience, they're less catty, and easier for me to understand. But I also give everyone a chance and make every attempt to not generalize the sexes.

[ossian]

This issue of duality for me gets to the frustrating core of my TG/CD experience.

One one hand I have this male side which likes to work on cars, get dirty, weld, solder circuits, build things in a small machine shop I have. Like crude guy humor, sometimes. I've been known to burp and fart on demand.

On the other hand I love art, poetry, romantic movies, women's fashion, I feel most comfortable under dressing. I also, play some musical instruments associated with what a woman would play.

My body is a complex tapestry. There are parts of my body I think of as feminine, my hips, waist, eyes, nose, eyelashes, breast, and to some extent legs. But there are parts that are manly, eyebrows, man hands, man feet, slightly broad shoulders, some muscle definition in the ab area and did I say hair! Oh yeah, and the all important dangley bits.

I wish there was this third gender for how I viewed myself. I've felt all my life like I'm both. Some days, I'm drift into the man I am and some days I drift into the woman that I am. And that was truly confusing growing up. Sure, I would have liked to have been born a girl. But, if I was born a girl, would I now in my middle years be wishing I was born a boy? I don't know. All, I do know is that I'm kind of neither. It is one of the reasons why I haven't chosen a female name.

One of the great cruelties of being a MtF cross dresser is that it is outside of the norm, but women do the FtM cross dressing all the time and that is considered ok. Hum... But that is another topic.

I think I'm beginning to ramble so now back to work.......

ps - Karen Hutton has a pretty good picture at the bottom of her posts that kind of captures this dual male female thing.

[EmilyPith]

It seems like a lot of people occupy the place between. Are there things that bring Charlene out more? Music? Activities?

Can you, as Boink said below, find a place where you feel feminine without bringing out the makeup bag?

And can we actually feel like the other gender? Sure we can behave similarly and share likes and tendencies, but in the end, it seems like the closest we can come is a place in the middle.

And who doesn't want to be beautiful? It's no wonder people want to dress and present as the face of beauty society has presented to us.

[Blossym]

I kinda feel that it doesn't matter what gender you are, your background, your beliefs, what you do... none of us are 100% male or 100% female or whatever. Everyone has a range of emotions that could be classified as masculine or feminine. I used to worry about being too manly, too girly, but I feel the truth, at least for me, is that we fluctuate every second of our lives. We as people are dynamic and constantly changing, so who is to say what defines us? Why do we even have to define ourselves in the first place? I see myself and everything I do as me, not as my guy or girl self. Idk, when I rant I really rant so this may not make any sense lol.

[suchacutie]

The duality for me was one of the most profound revelations of my life. It was freeing and uplifting, and part of that was because my wife was at my side and my partner in the process. Every scrap of information we learned about Tina separated us into masculine and feminine one more block. The knowledge was empowering, allowing for a clearer definition of who I am in each gender. Since all of this is done with one mind, I could begin to draw on this knowledge in either gender.

I love being transgendered!

[Miriam-J]

Carlene,

It sounds as though you have a reasonable understanding of your own tendencies, and this is a great starting point. One needn't become a full- or even part-time crossdresser to learn to soften your own negatives. If it bothers you that you are "defensive, competitive, and aggressive", it is within your power to improve. You can do this by consciously changing as a man on your own or with counseling, or you can consciously incorporate the best features of your feminine side to dampen them. If it helps you to crossdress full- or part-time to accomplish this, then use it as a tool but don't forget that it's just that.

I once had far too much of the same negative attributes. It took middle age, a major family crisis, and a few weeks of counseling to work past them. Since then I've used my feminine side to help me keep myself balanced, and my wife understands that it's all part of my self-therapy. Good luck with your own self-reform.

Miriam

[Kate Simmons]

Being a woman is one thing. Being a woman of the Light (being an enlightened individual in touch with one's self) is a totally different story altogether.:battingeyelashes::)

[NikiMichelle]

Carlene and Shibumi, I can also relate closely to your views. It took me quite a while to see myself as what I am and to accept how I view myself with respect to my CDing. I am a successful "male" in the respect that you describe yet have a softness to me that is my feminine side.

I am very analytical in nature and have struggled with never coming up with a sound, scientific answer to the famous "why do I do this?" question.

I have just come to accept it. It took me 24 years of marriage to get to the point that I had the courage to tell my wife.

I have come to live by two adages in my life:

"I hate to love that I CD" and "I wish I was a woman but do not want to become one".

I am at peace with myself.

[MysticLady]

I regret that I cannot nurture and grow the feminine within me without friction and societal pressures.

Thank you all for reading and being the support you are each and every day.

Carlene:daydreaming:

Hello Carlene
Sometimes we must face the friction and societal pressures head on and be who we are and not who they want us to be my friend. Keep pushing back.:)

[Tiffanyselkoe]

I can so relate with you!

[Tiffanyselkoe]

This issue of duality for me gets to the frustrating core of my TG/CD experience.

One one hand I have this male side which likes to work on cars, get dirty, weld, solder circuits, build things in a small machine shop I have. Like crude guy humor, sometimes. I've been known to burp and fart on demand.

On the other hand I love art, poetry, romantic movies, women's fashion, I feel most comfortable under dressing. I also, play some musical instruments associated with what a woman would play.

My body is a complex tapestry. There are parts of my body I think of as feminine, my hips, waist, eyes, nose, eyelashes, breast, and to some extent legs. But there are parts that are manly, eyebrows, man hands, man feet, slightly broad shoulders, some muscle definition in the ab area and did I say hair! Oh yeah, and the all important dangley bits.

I wish there was this third gender for how I viewed myself. I've felt all my life like I'm both. Some days, I'm drift into the man I am and some days I drift into the woman that I am. And that was truly confusing growing up. Sure, I would have liked to have been born a girl. But, if I was born a girl, would I now in my middle years be wishing I was born a boy? I don't know. All, I do know is that I'm kind of neither. It is one of the reasons why I haven't chosen a female name.

One of the great cruelties of being a MtF cross dresser is that it is outside of the norm, but women do the FtM cross dressing all the time and that is considered ok. Hum... But that is another topic.

I think I'm beginning to ramble so now back to work.......

ps - Karen Hutton has a pretty good picture at the bottom of her posts that kind of captures this dual male female thing.

I agree with you wholeheartedly. Exactly the way I feel

[DianeDeBris]

Hi all -- this may be the single richest, most valuable individual thread that's ever been started here. The topic itself, and the many wonderful ideas and insights mentioned so far, are so full of meaningful self-disclosure and self-awareness that it defies my power to comment adequately. I plan to do some serious reflection before I try to speak to the enormous range of truths that have been identified so far. In brief summary, this thread and all your comments touch upon at least these varied aspects of reality: we all occupy various points along a number of spectra, including those of overt gender presentation, sexual attraaction, personality traits extroversion/introversion, agressiveness/submissiveness, confidence/shyness, etc), and many others. Some of your comments raise fundamental philosophical questions of the nature of Good/Evil, Virtue/Sin, and other related moral issues. Way to much for anyone (me, at least) to capture in a single note. But you've given me a huge push to think through these questions, of all the essential dichotomies. i hope to make some progress and to be able to report back with somethng worthwhile. For now, thank you all for your probing and exciting ideas and insights!

[Barbara Maria]

Hi,Carlene.I agree,at least in my case,that I can't let my feminine side grow without friction from society.I would love to say I don't care what they think.I respect and admire those who can.But when all's said and done,I still have to live and work with these people.It doesn't seem fair,but unfortunately,that's why I have to stay in the closet.Very frustrating!Barbara Maria

[ReineD]

The man within me is someone I am not overly fond of. By most people's standards, I suppose he is respected, viewed as effective, capable and perhaps, to some degree, caring. He is also defensive, competetive, and aggressive.

Hi Carlene. I'm a GG and I'm trying to understand. I've not read anyone put it like you did, and I wonder why you are not overly fond of your inner male. Is it because you don't enjoy being defensive, competitive, or aggressive?

I agree that defensiveness is not a quality to aspire to. It is best to instead cultivate self-awareness and self-confidence. But would you also dislike women who are competitive and aggressive? But then there are different ways of being agressive. For example my aggression manifests itself in persistance and persuasion, rather than brute physical force combined with anger. I do not see this as an unpleasant characteristic, because I do not push it to the point of being obnoxious. Did you mean "aggressive" in an abnoxious way? I also am competitive but this is something that is useful ... better than being a doormat. :p

We all dislike some human characteristics more than others, and I wonder if you could work on eliminating them within yourself in both your male and female modes? There are lots of things that I don't like about myself. I procrastinate. I go to bed too late. I don't exercise enough. I sometimes do not disclose the entire truth when I feel I should. I gossip sometimes. Sometimes I eat way more than I should. And I'm a perfectionist to a fault. :p ... but don't we all have things that we work on?

Thanks for taking the time to answer this.




I regret, though, that society won't allow men to dress, feel, and share in the wonders of womanhood. There could be much said about this but, for now, I just wish to express my sorrow for not being accepted as part male and part female. More than that, I regret that I cannot nurture and grow the feminine within me without friction and societal pressures.

Society will allow you to dress. You can go out among strangers and not be spoken to rudely for the most part or bullied. My SO and I do this all the time, and my SO has made friends among the people who work at the places that she frequents. And we do live in a society where people mind their own business, so if anyone objects to your appearance they will keep it to themselves.

But I do understand the lack of acceptance for people who are gender non-conforming. Tolerance from strangers must not be mistaken for acceptance from the people who count such as bosses, coworkers, spouses, or other people in your closer community.



My body is a complex tapestry. There are parts of my body I think of as feminine, my hips, waist, eyes, nose, eyelashes, breast, and to some extent legs. But there are parts that are manly, eyebrows, man hands, man feet, slightly broad shoulders, some muscle definition in the ab area and did I say hair! Oh yeah, and the all important dangley bits.

Have you considered karyotype testing for an intersex condition? It's more common than you think:

Karyotype Testing (http://www.webmd.com/baby/karyotype-test)
Intersex Frequency (http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency)

[calebsmithxd]

Carlene, great thread on duality. It's something I've thought about in my life as well.


This issue of duality for me gets to the frustrating core of my TG/CD experience.

One one hand I have this male side which likes to work on cars, get dirty, weld, solder circuits, build things in a small machine shop I have. Like crude guy humor, sometimes. I've been known to burp and fart on demand.

On the other hand I love art, poetry, romantic movies, women's fashion, I feel most comfortable under dressing. I also, play some musical instruments associated with what a woman would play.

ossian, you can like what you like. Your likes don't have to be gendered. I know guys that like art and poetry and a few that even like fashion. It's not that big of a deal, especially on the first two subjects. If anything liking art and poetry should make you more interesting.

As far as instruments that are asociated with women, I really don't think that's a big issue or at least it shouldn't be too much of one once you are out of middle/high school. As an adult, you should be able to play any instrument you want and no one should give you grief. If they do and that bothers you, you should tell them. Maybe you don't need people like that in your life. And if you choose to keep those people in your life, you can always search online for names of famous male players of whatever instrument you choose.
[/QUOTE]

[noeleena]

Hi,

Its not about socity, i belive we need to see things very differently than we have been told to belive, okay lets forget about socity, lets look at people .

our next door neighbours those we see in the shops & interact with , oh yes ...interact ... with. very importaint, , Is it about clothes well thats what we are told from baby stage pink for boys & blue for girls oh yes thats correct, the colour's are right, you said older ones 1947 so today what has changed, oh pink for girl's & blue for boys , oh is it i beg to differ, its really a multy coloured place now & we use every colour for our grandkids we did for our Jos & i kids, 38 years ago.

Okay whats this got to do with us, i think some of us have grown up a little & got away from a few old issues well i hope so . its about acceptance .

Im a plank or two missing yes not compleat weird, maybe mad, even a nutcase, yet iv been given acceptance by many of my community , many born around the same time as i 60 - 70's im over 65. okay im a little different yet does it matter ...no...

okay so i went to those iv known we Jos & i , for many years, here in Waimate = down under, & told those i knew i was different & the way they had seen me would be very different, yes all layed out to be viewed, nothing hidden . you know what i had 97 out of 100 people accept what i was doing how i would be seen & be treated , Hmmm i was going to say differently, well yes in many ways,

Because those women i told treated me as a normal woman. they knew i was female just not quite compleat, yes they knew about that as well. they identefied with me because i was / am female,

now as has been said theres a part of us thats both male & female no probs there, its about being intersexed, thats more to do with who i am, the part you said about being male & different details to your self , thats where i cant relate i thought i had a good part of myself as male well i was not correct, i tryed to understand men / male. & relate with them. even though i was percived in looks as male i was not , any way does not matter now ofcause,

The main thrust of my post is about being accepted for who we are, my looks or how i look is ...over looked...acceptance has been given in such a lovely neat way. when we are honist with our selfs first then we can be honist with others , then youll find being accepted is freely given.iv proved this time & time again & with in a group iv just joined wensday this week, though im known there as well yet i had not met 12 out of 14 women from our womens group. some 100 members,

You said to change & learn about being a woman , okay,, i need to be carefull here in what i say, did i have to learn to be a woman, my difference comes in growing as a woman, now i spos ill be picked up on that, to me it was normal & natrual i did not change as trans people do many say they lived a male life,

I could not do that because i did not know how, so i lack that understanding , I do to some degree understand as a female where your comeing from just i have problems in knowing where your comeing from as a male. or trying to see it as a male would,

this about socity wont allow men to dress depends on how far the dressing goes , you mean no dought as as close as a woman looks, i failed & fail in that to the point of being embarissed, i contend with that, yet with in our Renaissance group we have over 100 men real men manly men..you get the idear none would even think to dress like or be like a woman no way never, now i know these men..yet they get skirted or dress this is how it was back in our time 1400- 1700
As an aside they do look rather lovely now id better not tell them that. any way they know im a woman ,they do treat me lovely so its pretty good.

There is a saying hide the light no one can see , show the light it can show more of the one holding it, dont hide who you are because of fear show fear who is greater, & live your life with the light,

...noeleena...

[Carlene]

:daydreaming:Reine D........hello. I always look forward to reading your posts. Your thoughts are clear and insightful. WIth respect to not enjoying being defensive, competitive, and aggressive, yes, that is true. These are wonderful tools for finishing ahead of the crowd, but they become ingrained and limiting with regard to relationship building. They also tend towards developing a critical attitude towards self and others, neither of which is a productive character building block.

Please, don't think that I am unhappy. That is not the case. I am just musing out loud. Women, with their own spectrum of faults, are a wonderful composition of softness, mental strength, beauty, and so on. Most aren't very good at climbing a ladder and working on the roof, though.(:-)

If I could, I would like to learn to be more like them. Dressing is a part of that experience; unfortunately, one that is limited by societal value constraints. Yes, one may be tolerated but acceptance within ones inner circle can be difficult to attain.:daydreaming:

[ReineD]

... Most aren't very good at climbing a ladder and working on the roof, though.(:-)

LOL! :) I'm just finishing remodeling my SO's bathroom this week. I've scraped, patched, sanded, primed, and painted ceilings, walls & mouldings (also had to cut into wall to attach brace to existing stud in order to have something to anchor the back of the Ikea 3-sided vanity), stripped and refinished linen closet doors and interior, installed flooring, removed old caulk around tub & surround and caulked new with silicone (ugh) plus everywhere else with painter's caulk, installed subway tile on two of the walls (bought a wet saw), installed toilet including putting in a new supply line from the basement because the old one was gross (60 years old), installed Ikea sink and faucet, installed new light fixture, larger built-in medicine cabinet, floating shelves above toilet.

... and decorated! :D

You'd be amazed at the number of women my age who are single and who have to learn how to do that stuff! :)

[ossian]

Have you considered karyotype testing for an intersex condition? It's more common than you think:

Karyotype Testing (http://www.webmd.com/baby/karyotype-test)
Intersex Frequency (http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency)

Don't know about this but I'm going to look into it. Thanks!!!!

[steftoday]

LOL! :) I'm just finishing remodeling my SO's bathroom this week. I've scraped, patched, sanded, primed, and painted ceilings, walls & mouldings (also had to cut into wall to attach brace to existing stud in order to have something to anchor the back of the Ikea 3-sided vanity), stripped and refinished linen closet doors and interior, installed flooring, removed old caulk around tub & surround and caulked new with silicone (ugh) plus everywhere else with painter's caulk, installed subway tile on two of the walls (bought a wet saw), installed toilet including putting in a new supply line from the basement because the old one was gross (60 years old), installed Ikea sink and faucet, installed new light fixture, larger built-in medicine cabinet, floating shelves above toilet.

... and decorated! :D

You'd be amazed at the number of women my age who are single and who have to learn how to do that stuff! :)

Reine, you so rock... :)

[sometimes_miss]

The man within me is someone I am not overly fond of. By most people's standards, I suppose he is respected, viewed as effective, capable and perhaps, to some degree, caring. He is also defensive, competitive, and aggressive.

Carlene, who you have described is the man most of us are brought up to be. From the moment we're self aware, our parents and society constantly push us into that role. It's not something most of us can ever completely escape from, even the transsexuals I've spoken to have told me that every so often, the 'old feelings' come back when the situation occurs that brings it out. However, sure, you can share in some of the 'wonders of womanhood' as you describe it. You just can't share them all.