Is this you?

[Kathryn Martin]

Is it you?


It seems that the state of Michigan recently experienced a case of gender regret.

Louis Maurice Smith, 77, is suing the state because state refused to “correct” his birth certificate a second time. Mr. Smith had surgery in 2000 based on an assertion by a plastic surgeon Alan Wilson that he Smith had gender identity disorder. Smith’s psychologist challenged the assertion. She had been treating Smith for a long history of sexual deviancy, paraphilias and criminal behavior including among other things breaking and entering for the purpose of obtaining women’s underwear from residences.

He was operated on by Dr. Schrang, who, at Smith’s request removed penis and scrotum and fashioned external genitalia but no vagina.

Smith obtained female sex markers on his documentation including birth certificate. He now wants it changed back. He claimed he is a woman when he got the surgery but apparently he was not. In his pleadings he states:
"Plaintiff Smith believes that transsexuality is a 'sin of damnation,' and has stated, 'That a man can turn into a woman is a lie straight from the mouth and heart of Satan.'

"It is essential to plaintiff Smith's religious belief that he regard himself - and his regarded by society - as a man. ...


Oops?

Recently someone stated: “I cannot live like this anymore alone, unloved……..” This person wants to quit transition.



Consider these cases and if you can answer me this: What or who failed?

[LeaP]

This person in the news story failed himself. Utterly, throughout life, and has reaped the consequences. In such an extreme case, I assign no blame to the system.

I don't see any parallel between this person and the person quoted. In the latter case, I see pain, not the self-serving and self-deceiving manipulation of the person in the news story.

[jillleanne]

Indeed Kay. I would ask, "what or who did not do enough to succeed?" I do maintain, other things equal, we need to be responsible for our actions and accept the consequences, and make changes if necessary. We make mistakes every day. We should make corrections equally quick. When we take control of our destiny, we reduce the ability of others to impact the outcome. The more we rely on others, the greater the risk of mistake or failure. This is not a perfect world. We cannot expect perfection, but we can strive to attain it as individuals. Some will fail completely, some will achieve peace, some will stay stuck in the middle. Life. No one said it would be easy; it isn't.

[Cheyenne Skye]

As for the news story, I think the surgeon is at fault. If the psychologist denied that the man was trans then why would the surgeon go ahead with surgery? He is just feeding the delusions of his patients to make a buck. But the person who posted that they wanted to quit transition, I can understand the frustration of it all if you don't have enough support in your life. I don't think this is something a person can do completely alone. Whether it be friends (real live ones-not facebooked), relatives or a SO, we all need someone to confide in who won't turn around and break your trust whenever it suits them. When I started down this path, I wasn't speaking with my sister so I tried everything I could to get my wife to support my need to express the real me. I lucked out when my wife decided she couldn't deal with and wanted out of the marriage. The things she did following her decision quickly got back to my sister who then came to see me to make sure I was alright. About a week later, I told her everything and we now talk (or text) almost everyday. Support is key. A person left to make these kinds of life altering decisions without it won't be able to really appreciate the gravity of the situation.

[Angela Campbell]

Sounds to me like Mr Smith has more problems than his sex change. It is not the doctors fault it is Mr Smiths fault all the way.

[Barbara Ella]

Question I have is how can a plastic surgeon make such a judgement? Who accepted it and let things proceed?

Barbara

[kerrianna]

The saying "There's no pleasing some people." comes to mind. Also the saying that some people are beyond help. It's true. If you can't help yourself.....

[kimdl93]

I think this person was disturbed and the plastic surgeon acted irresponsibly. Evidently his psychiatrist tried to intervene without success. And today the fellow is still disturbed. They fixed the wrong problem.

[Kathryn Martin]

I appreciate all of your comments, because both situations are interesting in that they reveal some of the real issues around the so called gate keeping or gate watching functions of the medical system.

I would place both cases in the category of failed gate keeping functions. In the first instance it is very apparent. A "cosmetic surgeon" diagnosed Smith with GID, and this diagnosis was challenged by that persons psychiatrist. The psychiatrist had seen Smith for years for sexual deviancy, paraphilias and criminal behavior which manifested itself through breaking and entering for the purpose of stealing women's underwear. Mr. Smith clearly had Axis 1 and 2 issues as defined by the DSM including predatory behavior and the psychiatrists denial of surgery and hormones was well grounded in the real issues surrounding gate keeping. The referral and diagnosis of Dr. Wilson was without any question medical malpractice. Dr. Schrang, now retired failed to question why a patient who was said to be suffering from transsexualism did not want a vagina. This should have raised enough questions to re-confirm with a treating psychiatrist before proceeding to do the surgery.

In my view this was an abject failure of a medical system who has in recent years an industrial approach to transsexuality in complete abdication of their gate keeping functions.

The second situation is in my view much more subtle. This person is in transition, has had no surgery but has gone full time. In the process she has lost her marriage, lost her job, appears to have no support system in place and has found herself alone, "unloved" as she put it. She has decided to de-transition. From past postings one can glean that she has had misgivings about transition throughout. From several comments over the years one can assume that her therapist encouraged transition rather than stay neutral and assess. I see this also as a professional failure. Being alone and unloved is one of the potential consequences of transitioning. That potential must be assessed for each candidate for transition by the therapist to avoid outcomes that exacerbate rather than ameliorate what the person is suffering from.

I do not discount self reliance in saying so, however. Living a fantasy creates these kind of circumstances. When a transsexual transitions it is with a view towards a normal life. To find a life that lets us claim normality often for the first time in our lives. To achieve this as an older transsexual all of the pieces must be in place and be attainable before taking the step. And being driven to take the step because we dream of becoming a different human being, dreaming of finding friends because we are now women, being happier because we live as a woman will never do. It is a fantasy.

[Lisa Gerrie]

Measure twice, cut once.

[Frances]

Quite succint Mich, but that's it actually: two evaluations from mental health professional and one surgeon who acts upon recommendations.

[Nicole Brown]

If I am not mistaken, doesn't it require a referral letter from a therapist to get hormone treatment and a second letter for GRS? Or is the fact that Mr(s) Smith did not have a vagina created act as an work around for this requirement?

Hmmm, I was required to have a letter from my therapist prior to my being prescribed hormones. I also understand that I will need a second letter before any reputable surgeon will perform GRS. I wonder what documentation was provided to the surgeon which led him to believe performing the procedure was proper.

Or did the surgeon just do the work, take the money and run.....

[Michelle.M]

If I am not mistaken, doesn't it require a referral letter from a therapist to get hormone treatment and a second letter for GRS?

You are quite correct, assuming all players are working in accordance with WPATH standards. And I do believe that Dr Schrang did practice as per WPATH standards, so something is missing from this story.



Or is the fact that Mr(s) Smith did not have a vagina created act as an work around for this requirement?

No. In many, if not most states, simply having an orchiectomy will complete legal requirements to change gender on legal documents. This particular patient had a partial GRS, which is the same as a regular GRS with the exception that a vaginal canal is not created. I never heard of that myself until recently, but apparently it's more popular in Europe than in the US and Canada.

That said, it would follow that some sort of surgery similar to FtM GRS to change back would be required to make those changes to his documents. Just whining about his mistake and holding everyone else accountable shouldn't be enough to do it.


Consider these cases and if you can answer me this: What or who failed?

Oh, Smith, definitely! Two things I see as common among regretters:

1. An ability to manipulate therapists, doctors and anyone else whose participation is necessary to obtain GRS. And it's not all that hard. Anyone who hangs out on this very site will eventually learn all the right phrases and terminology to use when in the therapist's office, and just a little bit of acting skill is all that's needed to pull it off. And why would they do this?

2. The other common theme is some other sort of psychological issue, far more severe than any sort of gender issue (which they don't even have, most likely). The patient is confused and wants a total life change, and what change is more total than a gender change? But when they do it, they find that they're still broken and the change fixed nothing. At least, it fixed nothing that was actually broken in that person.

Do a web search for sex change regretters. All of their stories read just like this. And then the anti-trans religious right gets hold of these guys and pimps them out for propaganda purposes.



Dr. Schrang, now retired failed to question why a patient who was said to be suffering from transsexualism did not want a vagina. This should have raised enough questions to re-confirm with a treating psychiatrist before proceeding to do the surgery.

No. As I mentioned earlier, partial GRS is a valid option offered by some surgeons who perform GRS. When I first heard about this it puzzled me, but I did a little research and this option seems to be appropriate for transwomen who know without doubt they are lesbian. This option provides neoclitoris and a natural appearing vagina without the extra maintenance. Why bother with a vaginal canal if you see no future need for one?

[stefan37]

the crux of the problem is this person is using the legal system as his personal atm machine. There are way too many instances of individuals refusing to take responsibility for their actions and then try to obtain monetary gain for their failures. We see time and time and time over and over. We know smoking is hazardous to our health, yet how many people are still winning multi hundred dollar lawsuits( 40 years after it has proven smoking causes disease) because they were injured by smoking. This particular case just happens to involve an individual with trans issues. As far as standards go there will always be people willing to circumvent the system for monetary gain. Let's face it if you had unlimited resources and wanted any body modification you desired irrelevant how bizarre it might be, A surgeon could be found that would perform such modification.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

its a bit maddening..

being transsexual is just that...its a unique and difficult problem, and the best solutions are there for us despite the high degree of difficulty... a crazy person, or a foolish person taps into this community and then experiences "trannsexual regret"...when in fact they are not transsexual at all...

they merely abused our healing path

...it literally has nothing to do with us and yet it implicates the entire system

...its as if the path for us live a better quality of life is a bad thing simply because foolish people that have nothing to do with us can abuse it...

[Barbara Ella]

Yes it is maddening. It also frustrates a bit.

I know (or at least think I do) I am transexual. I am just beginning my analysis and formulating an approach to my future. It isn't easy (I know, the typical understatement), and I know I am going to rely on the professionals in the progressive stages to point out any errors in my thoughts and help with my loved ones. I do not want to be alone.

Then i see this, and worry about falling through the cracks. I know this person "jobbed" the system to get what he thought he needed, but the story is out there, and loved ones will have access to it, and likely will use it, and others like it, as reasons not to support my decisions, yet it is not a typical story of how the decisions are made, just negative fodder.

It is just another reason why knowing and accepting this about ones self is very frightening and not to be taken lightly. It keeps me frozen in time. Not logical, I know, but somehow my logic of the past just doesn't fit anymore.

Sorry for the ramble, but my thoughts run amok lately.

Barbara

[arbon]

I don't know the situation with the second person is hard. It just don't really know how things are going to be when you transition or how well your are going to cope with things if things go real bad. A lot of trams women do end up very alone with difficult lives. In her case she can go back to living male and see and get her life back on track and see if it is better and and learn which is really right for her

In both e amples I don't I don't see the med professionals as being that responsible the individual is ultimate responsible and it is the choices they make and have to live with


As for the question is this you. I hope it is not me. But I've already been transitioning for a few year and almost a year since I change my name. I know there are a lot of challenges still but all in all I have been doing okay. I have friends I have people in my life that support me and I am active in my community. I think that all helpsake a big difference in how a transition can go

If I make it to getting surgery , years away still, a lot of time will have passed and if I wake up after surgery screaming Iade a mistake it would be on me that I did not figure out it was wrong after all that time I had. I would live with my choices.

[KellyJameson]

Interesting news story.

Shame is a powerful motivator of behavior and it is possible the transition was driven by the shame of the long history of sexual deviancy, paraphilias and criminal behavior.

Rapist have been known to request castration to stop the behavior they know they cannot control.

There almost seems to be movement between two different forms of shame. From the shame of sexual deviancy into the shame of being a "woman" as an affront to his masculine identity.

This is the problem where transitioning is driven by mental illness.

It is interesting that he has religious concerns because clearly the religious concerns were absent when he was acting out his sexual deviancy against others.

I'm not sure how someone this unstable and with their history was able to find a surgeon to operate. If I had been the surgeon I would have been fearful of a future medical malpractice suit being brought against me.

I would give odds that this person was sexually abused as a child and repeated the deviant acts experienced as a child when they reached adulthood.

This persons life is just one long sad tragedy who victimized other innocent people while living the tragedy.

What a sad sad story

[Badtranny]

There is nothing that can be done to prevent people from making bad decisions. There is a way around every regulation but I think the 'community' should be much slower to embrace self identified persons. This isn't going to happen because politics being what it is, the 'community' will open its arms in support to anyone with any gender variant inclinations because one more person is one more vote against the establishment. I understand that, and I can even agree with some of the premise of a 'big tent' (or TG umbrella) but in my own life I have a much higher bar if you're looking for my personal acceptance.

There are no phonies allowed in my life. If I get a sense that you're not who you say you are, then you're out. If you're 'trans' and closeted and you want me to keep a secret for you, then you will have a problem. My life is a no closet, no secret, no drama, zone and if you're not comfortable with who you are, then you don't get to hang out with me or my wonderful friends. I meet a lot of people and I like a lot of people but I invite very few people into my life. In every case where I was trying to be 'more inclusive', I've regretted it. Neither of the people in this example would have made it into my circle.

Now before you start to think that I need to get over myself, let me add that while I may be nobody special, if every trans person had a similar attitude, then I believe there would eventually be fewer dreamers and phonies making mistakes and subsequently making the news. Our institutions (trans resources) need to be broadly accommodating, but we owe it to ourselves as a community to be individually skeptical. This is why I take the positions that I do here sometimes. I don't care about how you identify or how many doctors have diagnosed you because none of it means anything to me. If you want ME to accept YOU as a trans person, then I only care about one thing; how you live.

Neither of the people in Kat's example were living authentic lives. I feel for them because I have compassion for them as fellow tortured humans, but I would never have called them sister.

[Kathryn Martin]

I do find it interesting that the majority of commentators seem to excuse the medical professionals here. If a person with clear psychiatric issues involving fetishism ( "At various times throughout his life, plaintiff Smith was diagnosed with sexual and psychopathic deviance, sociopathy, and paraphilias" for which he was in treatment for 40 years) is permitted to have surgery against the recommendation of his treating psychiatrist do you really find this in order? I wonder whether in your eyes transsexuality then is simply a "lifestyle" choice rather than a medical condition requiring treatment? Where in all of this is the responsibility of the medical professionals who are required to "heal" and "do no harm". In this case the harm is done. Within one year following surgery Smith began presenting variously as a man or a woman until four years post surgery he consistently presented as male. The reason the psychiatrist challenged the diagnosis by the cosmetic surgeon was because Smith was mentally ill.

I also find it interesting that few have tackled the second case. That is, in my view the much more interesting one because it is much closer to what some of us might face than the Smith case. Would somebody like to give their take on this maybe?

And Michelle, I am not sure the sexual function (as in neoclitoris and external genitalia) is really the criteria for transsexuality and the need for congruence. It makes all of this so ?permissive? like a designer choice. That just strikes me as weird.


Neither of the people in Kat's example were living authentic lives. I feel for them because I have compassion for them as fellow tortured humans, but I would never have called them sister.

I would agree with you on the second case. I do think Smith is really simply mentally ill and this should not have gotten past either Wilson or Schrang.

[Angela Campbell]

The question I have is where is the personal responsibility. Why should there be "gatekeepers" to keep some away from a treatment they seek? Is a barber at fault for a terrible haircut if it is something you asked for? Yes I know it is a little more serious than a haircut. I do agree it is poor choice for a surgeon to perform this type of treatment just on a whim, ( and I would question the ethics of this surgeon if he knew all the facts) but then again if someone wanted it and was advised of the risks and decided on a course, then the responsibility is on the person who asked for it. Blaming someone else because they didn't stop me is abdicating personal responsibility. I would not want to live in a world where I felt like others had to protect me from myself because in so doing I give up my own free will and power of choice.


The second case is understandable. A transistion is going to be difficult and maybe for some it can become overwhelming to the point of giving up. Hell I am alone and unloved and have not even begun. I do not think either is a case of "who failed" as much as it is two cases of free will. People will do amazing and stupid things.

[Michelle.M]

I do find it interesting that the majority of commentators seem to excuse the medical professionals here.

As I said in my previous post, there's something missing here. I find it hard to believe that Dr Schrang would have performed surgery without the requisite letters. Quite possibly Smith did some shopping around for therapists (other than those discussed in this story) and manipulated them to get what he needed. As for Dr Wilson, he seems to have made some sort of recommendation but . . . what? Was this particular surgery outside of his field of expertise? Did Dr Schrang accept Wilson's letter as one of the two needed for GRS? And who provided the second one? I'll bet nobody involved in the surgery had any knowledge of Smith's attending psychologist before the fact.

Too many missing parts here for me to place blame on medical professionals. Ultimately Smith was responsible for his own future, just as we all are. And seeing how he is even now playing the role of victim / manipulator with the state I really have to lay this all on him.


I wonder whether in your eyes transsexuality then is simply a "lifestyle" choice rather than a medical condition requiring treatment?

I assume you're speaking to all who have placed the blame on Smith, but why would you draw such a conclusion?


And Michelle, I am not sure the sexual function (as in neoclitoris and external genitalia) is really the criteria for transsexuality and the need for congruence.

It isn't. I was responding to your assertion that Dr Schrang had failed in his responsibilities as surgeon by not addressing the patient's request for a partial GRS. Since it is a valid option there would be no reason for him to question anything if he had the required letters in hand from the appropriate medical professionals which I still have to, unfortunately, assume he did.


It makes all of this so ?permissive? like a designer choice. That just strikes me as weird.

I thought so, too, when I first heard about it. But it's more common than I thought, and the procedure is being offered by reputable surgeons.


I also find it interesting that few have tackled the second case. That is, in my view the much more interesting one because it is much closer to what some of us might face than the Smith case. Would somebody like to give their take on this maybe?

Not much here to tackle, IMO. This is based on a recent thread here, correct? Someone was going through RLE and decided not to proceed any further. That's exactly why we have RLE. Mission accomplished.

[Marleena]

Case #1 seems to have been dealt with here. What might have been missed is that this person might have taken up religion as another means of looking for a cure and changed his thoughts about the transition. He was obviously an unstable individual.

Case #2 Is unfortunate. The diagnosis was likely correct but the expectations were wrong. I agree the system worked there. It also proves the point of not moving too quickly. The saying "don't do more than you need to" applies. I can tell you that in my TS group there are a couple of older TS women that have not gone onto SRS. They kept their families (wives) and jobs and work as men while being preop or nonop whichever you prefer. One is a University professor and TS activist, she has helped hundreds of TS people. She is what some of you might call a part time TS or even a fake. I can tell you she is well respected and none of us doubt her being TS. I say more power to her if HRT alone works for her. She is a good reason why I won't question people that identify as TS and not go on to have SRS.

I wonder how TS people managed to live their lives before SRS and HRT started being used? I have a long ways to go still myself but I'll do what's right for me without outside pressures.

[whowhatwhen]

Why does it matter?
Do failed transitions invalidate the successful ones?

If "only transition if you have to" isn't going to be enough then they'll eventually find a way to their end goal no matter how many gatekeepers you put in the way.

The first one sounds like someone with mental health issues slipping through the cracks, while the second sounds like soul crushing depression.
Do they want to quit because it's hard or because they really are a man on the inside?

Just try to be supportive where you can and worry about your own path.

Though I don't have any trannycred so take that with a grain of salt.

[LeaP]

Kathryn, I don't know - maybe my heart just just goes out to case #2. I don't doubt the reality. I've read her posts too long for that. Maybe I share the concerns or fear the same. But your points on support systems also ring true. Not every one can muster support, though. Are they any less? I have to credit her with the wherewithal to start RLE even if it didn't work out. I also see a difference between the terrible loneliness expressed in this case vs someone who doubts their identity,

[Michelle.M]

Why does it matter?
Do failed transitions invalidate the successful ones?

In a way, yes. Anti-trans critics use this as "evidence" that we're all mentally ill and what we're doing to transition is unnatural and harmful. Unfortunately, these hatemongers tend to be the loudest voices heard at congressional hearings and in state legislature meetings when debates about equality and anti-hate laws are being held.

[whowhatwhen]

The counter to that is easily going to be all of the successful transitions and the ineffectiveness of conversion therapy, it just sounds like they're going to keep grasping at straws even if you knock the failed transition level down to 0%.

The only thing I can think of is increasing mental health support systems, such as covering all mental health professionals under UHC.

[pickles]

It's me, I'm the guy.

[Kathryn Martin]

Why does it matter?...................Just try to be supportive where you can and worry about your own path.


Kathryn, I don't know - maybe my heart just just goes out to case #2.

It really no longer matters what I think, Corinne. Having gone through the process of transition including surgery I no longer think about these things from the perspective of someone who is in the thick of things. I have no path to worry about anymore. I have a professional interest in these questions and of course have an emotional attachment to some of the people here on this site. The purpose of writing about these things in the manner I do is to point out that transition is an incredibly serious undertaking. Just consider the actual consequences for the second case. The realization that she could no longer live with the loneliness, with being unloved, came after she dismantled with the help of her therapist the fabric of her life. It is an incredible tragedy that her belief that this could be done without impunity now has netted such a result. Because transitioning and de-transitioning are acts that do not immediately assist in creating "new" networks of support in real life (as opposed to here). All expressions of sympathy pale in comparison to what she will have to tackle and overcome now.

There is a certain callousness in saying: " Someone was going through RLE and decided not to proceed any further. That's exactly why we have RLE. Mission accomplished. " when the consequences are as dire as they are. And this is where I see the abject failure of her therapist. The purpose of a therapist in these situations once the diagnosis is made is to prepare the patient for real life. That includes both planning but also in great depth discussion of possible scenarios of failure and the kind of pitfalls we can run into. The reason is that we don't set out on this road to fail. For older transitioners this is quite different from young ones. The first and glaring question that arises in the mind of our social environment is how a 40, 50 ,60 year old man (because that is how we are perceived) can have such a colossal lack of good judgement. It strikes at the very integrity of our ability to function both socially and professionally. How can you overcome this? And to what extent is it the responsibility of the gate keepers to address this fundamental question both from a diagnostic point of view and also from the point of view of executing a successful transition.

Being in the process we are, as Frances recently said, so blinded by the physical and physiological requirements of transition that this question pales in comparison but it is the much more potent barrier to a successful transition than any hormones or other transitioning accoutrements, which really only serve to support a solution to this question. Sex re-assignment surgery is the only step that we do entirely for ourselves. As is being pointed out by so many, it is the most invisible of changes and is for us, as transsexuals central to our existence. All other changes are supportive of our social integration, even if we seemingly desire them so much. In fact a successful transition is one of the few steps we can take where a bold: I want this and goddammit I am going to make it happen! does not guarantee success. It requires a different connection to your social environment. Reine recently asked on one of these threads why so many wives do not understand and then answered her own question by pointing out that no woman could have hidden her nature for 20, 30, 40 years without it leaking out around the edges somewhere, everywhere.

In transition if you are unable to make your social environment follow you in some fashion, then success may not follow. And developing a sense of the authenticity of your followers in acknowledging your nature is crucial. Women tend to be acknowledged as women.

[Marleena]

I just need to add that I don't know who person #2 is or her whole story but it is really sad. She lost everything taking the path she did and how can we not feel compassion for her? I wish her well and hope she does find some happiness.

[noeleena]

Hi,

I know of quite a few & know of others who were passed for HRT & surgerys in those case's they were M to F. & some blamed the Dr's & G P's because they helped in them being able to have HRT & surgerys , yet turned on those who did help

they said some time after they were not trans to start with, oh.... so why did they go to all this to then turn around & try to go back to liveing as male's i can not answer thier ? though my thoughts are they played a game & thought they had won did they no they were not prepared to go through life being who they where in the first place, was it like a mid life crises or it was going to be paid for by the state or some one else,

Okay im not trans & dont or did not come under the same detail as trans yet i was given the help i needed heres my detail i ...paid... in full for all my surgerys, so would i do that on a whim no way. i knew what i was / am & i could never go back to something im not i was not male to start with all iv done is had help in what i needed i did not change from male to female or female to male was not posible ether way, for myself there was never or could be any doughts in what i am,

So those who have surgerys many ask others what am i if that ? is asked then then theres a uncertinty they have about them selfs so the gate keepers are only working on what they are told & maybe what they see, i dont belive for some thats enough yet the gate keepers are asked to say yes you are trans .

So when they do say yes & help they are wrong when it all turns around & those who get the help say the gate keepers are wrong

Now when those who need the help have to pay all costs will they have the surgerys, they then cant blame the Dr's or would they any ways, its a no win no matter what way its done,

Though i would think those who pay them selfs would more than just weigh up the cost, not just about money for me there was no cost other than no life,

Ill tell you what sometimes people dont understand i know this applys to myself to go through the hell of what we do go through we have to be bloody strong very very strong , i know iv had to , iv lost a few trans people & others i know about, so it does hit home . we have our life its how we live it that will count ,

...noeleena...

[Kaitlyn Michele]

the last thing we need is people that have nothing to do with us influencing the people around us to resist our transitions, and allow our detractors to manufacture false issues for us...
Its hard enough w/o jerks and fools making it harder. His situation has as much to do with us as a fish falling off a bicycle and yet its held up as another case of transsexual regret..
It's true that the best defense against this is lots of successful transitions, but it gets old "defending" my "choice" against failed people that are not like me...

the medical community screws up all the time...medicine is by its nature messy...my mom said doctors are just good guessers...i had issues with therapists that told me things that were not true...altho it hurt me i ended up taking responsibility and driving towards the right answer...thats how it works.. if you have cancer.. if the first doctor isnt cutting it, you move on , and like we do as transsexuals, you take the chance based on only your best understanding at the time...ask Steve Jobs...

and screw ups do influence treatment for others...this kind of screw up implicates the next transition, and its helpful to understand what happened and why it happened..

and unfortunately when you see cases like #1 in the OP, you have to raise your hand and explain for the umpteenth time that you are not like him, that he was not transsexual, that you are not a crossdresser, that this is not a choice, this is something that is not going to change, and you have to do all of those things even tho all that happened is a fish fell of its bike

hopefully the people that are still learning how to treat us will look at this and truly improve their understanding of how to treat transsexuals so they can best manage quality of life AND treat people that are lurking around our community doing stupid things to mess up their lives..

[Michelle.M]

There is a certain callousness in saying: " Someone was going through RLE and decided not to proceed any further. That's exactly why we have RLE. Mission accomplished. " when the consequences are as dire as they are.

* sigh *

Nearly every week some allegedly trans noob posts (almost always in her first or second post) that she's chomping at the bit to have GRS and boobs and HRT and live her life as a woman (and quite frequently in that order) and she's always met with a resounding chorus of transitioners who tell her that therapy is key and there's a very important RLE in there as well so she can sort all this out.

And why do we chide this wannabee in this way? Because, as you point out, the consequences are dire.

We can't have it both ways. We can't endorse RLE and stress how important it is and then wring our hands when RLE does exactly what it's intended to do - to give a serious reality check to someone who might not be an appropriate candidate for further transition.

And the alternative? Had she simply plowed on through and finished her transition she might have been a regretter and then would have put the blame on everyone else when she knew - as she does even now - that further transition was a bad idea.

It's not callous. This example is exactly why we do RLE. And failure of the medical community to manage that WOULD be a failure indeed.


And this is where I see the abject failure of her therapist.

You simply must be kidding! The patient chose not to continue because she found out what we all know - that transition is tough. Not everyone's up to the task. Bravo for her for figuring that out before it was too late!


The purpose of a therapist in these situations once the diagnosis is made is to prepare the patient for real life. That includes both planning but also in great depth discussion of possible scenarios of failure and the kind of pitfalls we can run into.

Partially, but it's the patient's transition and she needs to own it. The only way a therapist would fail here is to deny the patient's own inability to adapt during RLE and then to push the patient on to full transition. That would be failure. That the patient has chosen not to continue is not the therapist's fault unless she can show that the therapist was a negligent quack who gave bad counsel. The therapist's job is to help the patient find the life skills and coping mechanisms to transition. It's the patient's job to put those skills to use.

According to the patient she feels unloved. That may not have anything to do with her gender issues, and that's a signal that other work needs to be done before any further transition occurs, if it does at all.


In transition if you are unable to make your social environment follow you in some fashion, then success may not follow.

And that pretty much wraps up the reason that the person chose not to continue to transition. It looks like the process worked exactly as it was supposed to, and I'm still not seeing any medical community blame here.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I think this is a good debate..

Kathryn one thing you said.. "All expressions of sympathy pale in comparison to what she will have to tackle and overcome now" sounds like hyperbole to me....S$$$ happens..

ALL medical situations have a meaningful patient responsibility aspect...ours more than most.
There are very few things in life that require more ownership than attempting transition and frankly the same goes for ts women that try to not transition. you gotta own it..thats just the way it is and we deal with it best we can.

The assertion that starting RLE and giving up is a "failure" does not stand up......stopping RLE is not a failure..its part of a process...its a medical process that by its nature requires constant inputs and outputs...it can have multiple aspects..
my two most influential ts mentors both started RLE, both quit in months 3-6(one shaved her head and took testosterone for a short time AFTER getting FFS...) and then both came back...that was their path...they are far from failures..

we all project our experience on others ..i know i do it too...not everybody came at this from a perspective of having their act together at the point of RLE, not everybody is body/congruence focused, and not everybody can fearlessly/shamelessly express themselves(even just verbally and in the safety of a therapist office) ...my projection comes from how i had to therapist shop ..i experienced "bad therapy" but i also remember how i expressed myself and there is an element of self responsibility in what i said to those "bad therapists"...they are not mind readers..based on knowing you on this forum, had you advised me 10 years ago when i that therapist gave me bad advice, i think you would have told me the same thing..

RLE can be the final step to congruence, it can prove to a transsexual they can "do it"...it can highlight to transsexual women that they need more time to do it better or that they need to get more support, and it can demonstrate to non-ts people that their fantasy of being a woman is just that...if your lot in life is that you need to blow up your life to stop obsessing over an impossible dream, its not callous to say it, life will go on, we learn from it, pick up the pieces and move on.

...people do stupid things that impact their lives all the time...people make predictable and life changing bad decisions all the time..lots of hard decisions have dire consequences..RLE is merely one of them...
....i dont see how RLE can exist AND it be assumed that only people that succeed at it can try it

i totally agree that some people are fools for starting RLE...that sometimes its obvious to transsexuals that they are fools, and this is actually a safe place to talk some sense into somebody before they do something stupid, but more often than not, its impossible to stop people from doing things that can hurt themselves despite no lack of effort (from you, me or the medical community)...

[Michelle.M]

The assertion that starting RLE and giving up is a "failure" does not stand up......stopping RLE is not a failure..its part of a process...

My point exactly. This is exactly how it's supposed to work. We try it out, we see if it's a good fit and if it is we proceed. If not, we change direction.

In a sense our friend who terminated RLE is in a very unique place. As Mark Twain said, "Anyone who has had a bull by the tail knows five or six more things than someone who hasn't.". She now knows something about herself that anyone who has not yet started RLE doesn't know, and she's also come to certain realizations that those of us with a positive RLE will never appreciate.

There's no failure here. It just didn't end in a way that was expected.

[Kathryn Martin]

There's no failure here. It just didn't end in a way that was expected.

This a good debate, and I am not kidding. You are simply not getting my point, which is nice going shutting the barn door after the horses are out. And that is a failure in my book. And apparently in your view medical professionals are without any responsibility for their patients.


Kathryn one thing you said.. "All expressions of sympathy pale in comparison to what she will have to tackle and overcome now" sounds like hyperbole to me....S$$$ happens..

ALL medical situations have a meaningful patient responsibility aspect...ours more than most.

...people do stupid things that impact their lives all the time...people make predictable and life changing bad decisions all the time..lots of hard decisions have dire consequences..RLE is merely one of them...
....i dont see how RLE can exist AND it be assumed that only people that succeed at it can try it

Kaitelyn, hyperbole, really, so after this person lost her marriage, her job, has found herself alone and unloved and quits transition, she now has to simply pick up the pieces and move on? In the eyes of her social environment she just has proven that she lacks any judgement. Nice starting point for moving on.

RLE is required prior to surgery to ensure social and professional acceptance before irreversible changes are made. Her bad decision was in your words predictable because apparently in the face of a very conflicted view of transition and questions whether this was the right path she was counseled to proceed. I agree we all have the primary responsibility in our decisions especially around questions of stepping on that path. But we do seek out professional help so that we have someone check if we have fallen prey to some colossal fantasy. To be blunt the likelihood that you are suddenly TS at age 40, 50, 60 is what?

[Badtranny]

But we do seek out professional help so that we have someone check if we have fallen prey to some colossal fantasy. To be blunt the likelihood that you are suddenly TS at age 40, 50, 60 is what?

I agree with MM, Kait, AND Kat, so this is a pretty crappy debate if you ask me ;-)

You're all saying the same thing in your own styles so that's neat but Kat is (or was) being a little too coy about her premise. She feels like #2 was not served by her own doctors OR the community. She's saying that #2 was welcomed and encouraged by us as recklessly as she was diagnosed by her therapist. People have issues, and when they find themselves being embraced by a community for the first time, they can easily misunderstand their own motives. The support of the community seems bigger than life to someone who is not healthy, but they find out too late that the community only exists in the abstract. There is no sorority house where you can make a new life with all of your fabulous new friends. There is only you, and what remains after your big announcement. It's a hell of a thing. My life is NOT better after transition. It's the same or worse in many respects. I just FEEL better about it.

Kat thinks the Therapists should always be reluctant to encourage transition, and when they do, be very serious about the potential consequences.

[melissaK]

Well sure Melissa, go start talking about the elephant in the room . . . ;^) (I avoided this thread for just that reason - Kat's initial coyness.)

[stefan37]

Transition by its very nature is messy. What is known cannot be unknown. I was convinced hormones would improve my quality of life. They have in ways I could never have imagined. I have been taking my transition in steps to see at what level my gid would be mitigated. I have only been on estrogen for 10 months, Probably 6-12 months from RLE. Well I have already lost the most precious person in my life. If I were to stop right now and attempt to go back, Our relationship has already been irrevocably damaged as husband and wife. Aside form the physical changes that may not get reversed, she would always wonder if I would want to start again. Should I blame the therapist, and endocrinologist that allowed me access to the hormones? Or should I take responsibility for my actions? The answer for me is I have to own the path I am on. Any losses I have or will incur along the way will be on me. Not on the medical establishment that allowed me access. I thought that was the purpose of RLE to allow an individual the opportunity explore and realize whether living as the opposite gender is right for them. Maybe they started because of a fantasy or maybe it was a real need. Not everyone has the fortitude, self-confidence and perseverance to follow it to whatever conclusion we feel appropriate. If one is not TS wouldn't it be beneficial to realize that before attempting irreversible surgery? I disagree that starting rle and then backing out is a failure. I say that the process did what it was supposed to and although there were losses incurred, it would be much more severe had they proceeded.

I am glad that some are able to go at rocket speed and assimilate successfully to congruence and begin to grow as a woman. For many of us it is a struggle whether financially, relationship wise or socially. Many times I say to myself WTF am I doing. I ruined a perfectly good marriage with a loving spouse I loved very much and she loved me. One of my children is having a difficult time and has caused uncertainty in her life at a time when she needs to concentrate on her own life as she graduates this spring from college. I can only speak for myself I know I must move forward, I must take ownership of the losses I have caused and incurred. I will have to take responsibility for any future decisions I make. Will I make the right choice? So far every one i have made towards transition feels right and I feel more content, even tho the losses are excruciatingly painful and hurt a lot. And they not only cause me pain and hurt but cause those closest to me undue hurt and pain, not too mention anger and a host of many other emotions.

Never transition unless you have is to is so true, and if you feel you must any losses have to be taken as a consequence of that decision. Transition is serious business, it is not fantasy, As others have said before "it will get real at some point", and that poiint is much closer than many believe even with good mentoring.

[Michelle.M]

You are simply not getting my point

Really? Let me try again. In case #1 Mr Smith has GRS and later regrets it. You ask who or what failed.

In case #2 a site member has pulled the plug on her own transition. You ask who or what failed.

Am I on track so far?

You asked an open ended question and I think the point has now become that you disagree with the answers being given, and you're challenging the notion that (in case #1) it's Smith and not a failure of the medical community and that in case #2 it's merely her decision and not a failure of the medical community.


And apparently in your view medical professionals are without any responsibility for their patients.

I don't believe that my responses have given you enough information to make such a blanket statement.

Let's look at the facts (such as they are) from your original post:

Case #1

Smith has GRS, regrets it and sues the state to change his documents back to the way they were before transition.

What was Dr Wilson's actual involvement in the case? Did he make a formal GID diagnosis (inappropriate for a plastic surgeon) or was his "assertion" merely an informal opinion? We don't know.

Was anyone involved in Smith's treatment aware that Smith was being treated for other serious issues by a psychologist or did Smith conceal this? We don't know.

Did Dr Schrang ignore WPATH protocols and perform GRS without the required letters or did he have all the necessary documents? We don't know.

Did Smith obtain those letters from another therapist for the purpose of gaming the system to get a surgery he knew was being stonewalled by his psychologist? Did he bribe someone? We don't know.

What we do know is that there is an established procedure for changing sex markers on official documents. It's called GRS, and Smith could use that process by obtaining FTM GRS and submitting the appropriate affidavits and applying for the changes for which he's now suing the state to do for him.

What we do know is that Smith is exhibiting typical "career victim" pathologies that make others responsible for his well-being. We do not know enough about what medical providers may have done or failed to do to put any blame on them.

Case #2

All we know is this:


I cannot live like this anymore alone, unloved so I am quitting my transition and going to try and return to being a male.

That's it! One sentence of 24 words! Where do you get any idea whatsoever about even the involvement of the medical community, much less any responsibility they might have for her decision?

[arbon]

.I think medical professionals do have responsibility for how they treat their patients and to use their best judgment in doing so, but ultimately they do not control the person they are treating, the person needs to make their choices of what they are going to based on what is in their heart and the information one has. Especially transsexuals, the answer has to come from inside. It is their body, it is their life. And the consequences of it going wrong are theirs to.

That's my opinion though, from a person that did not ask my therapist if she thought it was a good idea or not for me to transition, I did not ask her initially if she agreed with me starting hormones - I just went ahead and did those things, without a letter, without a doctor, without her approval. I mean she advised me of the risks, she really wanted me to meet other transsexuals so I could learn from them what the reality of transition is like. Which I did and got a clear picture of the reality could be for me, a lot of the trans women I met where not doing very well. It may have been very poor judgment on my part, but I went for it anyway. I felt like I had to , and that I had to do it soon.

I don't want tighter rules or guidelines on transitioning and I'm not going to hold the medical professionals responsibly for giving us what we want them to do. I just don't like people having that much control over me.

in case number 2 my heart goes out to her to. She can restart though, people have restart their lives all the time for all sorts of reason. If she finds later on in is in a better position maybe she can try again, maybe she will have more friends and support to help pull her through.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

...I agree that a number of people have a fantasy that grows and grows and screws up their lives.. they exist...and hopefully the medical community doesn't let them screw up their lives..given that our typical therapy path is an hour a week or less, you are being unrealistic to think they get it right every time...and i repeat...the trend in an increasingly overburdened medical system is SELF OWNERSHIP of care...

and if your care doesnt work out, it actually is pretty simple
...you pick up the pieces and move on...you do it as best you can...in some ways the person giving up on RLE has many of our issues..they'll be marginalized just like us...we pick up our pieces and move on, so do they hopefully

i think you have a blind spot and that is that some of the older folks that "suddenly realize" they are transsexual end up looking back on lives with a mixture of sadness and awe at how brutally they repressed or compartmentalized their feelings...this is my experience...your experience was different...your approach precludes people like me from the benefits of transition...you would have me jump through more hoops to protect the people that are foolishly screwing up their own lives...that is the practical outcome of your approach..no thanks...there are enough hoops already..just like that fetishists and the fantasizers, i ended up therapist shopping until I got to my "right place"..

++++
and the OP now looks a bit disingenuous to me on re reading...thats upsetting to me....i'd prefer things to be more direct

don't transition unless you have to...that's the mantra... whats so hard to understand about that...i don't know any doctor, any therapist or any one of us that has ever said anything differently..

[LeaP]

...the whole premise of the OP is a strawman...

I don't think so. As a practical matter, the gatekeeping system still exists strongly for SRS and somewhat less so for HRT. I.e., this is the premise, and it's not a strawman. If anything, it was even stronger in 2000, when case #1 had surgery. Given that, the question as to who failed is entirely appropriate. The story contains some weird-sounding elements (like the plastic surgeon's diagnosis), but in the end it doesn't matter if the person was manipulating the system.

People have ALWAYS manipulated the system. The stories of TS in the bad old gender clinic days showing up dressed to the nines, virtually trying to seduce their psychiatrists, confessing unshakeable attraction to men only, and telling the "known since birth" story are legion - because that's the only way one could get past the gatekeepers. My own therapist told me that she's had any number of "hormone shoppers," as she calls them, none of whom get letters from her. There is enough in the Case #1 story to strongly imply a manipulative personality in addition to the post-SRS religious influence (conversion, perhaps?). I should also point out that co-morbid issues, including paraphilas, aren't necessarily disqualifying, though they would give any psych cause to investigate particularly closely.

I've read enough about people's therapist experiences, however, that I've come to believe there should be a gender therapy certification of some sort. From stories of people getting diagnoses and pseudo-diagnoses on their first visit (or even phone call), to getting letters virtually on demand, to session descriptions that suggest any lack of rigor in diagnosis, to lack of knowledge in the subject area, etc. - all seem to be more common that not.

Maybe I'm lucky. Mine has had gender patients for 25 years. She followed a proper differential diagnosis process. She insisted on dealing with co-morbid issues before discussing gender in depth. She wouldn't so much as even use the word "transgender" for months, never mind transsexual. After depression & anxiety were dealt with, and I started pressing - at one point writing her a long letter before a session - THEN we dug into gender. By that point, I had self-diagnosed, but she still would not render an opinion, never mind a diagnosis, for yet another 6-8 sessions. At that point I asked if she would approve hormones and the answer was "of course." (!) Subsequent sessions have been all over the map on general life issues, but have also turned to discussions of transition and timing. Time from first contact to letter was approximately 8 months.

I think this is a best-case scenario because we have both been fully engaged. I wanted her expertise and guidance (got criticized here for letting her drive, too), but still ultimately came to my own conclusions. We agreed. She did proper due diligence, as well as sorted out issues in my way. I was cautious in the way I needed. The gatekeeping concept applied, but it was in no way restrictive or applied artificial criteria. I suppose I could have tried to manipulate the situation, but wasn't interested in that and think it would have been difficult given the rigor in her assessment.

But IS this best-case? I think so. What more rigor in gatekeeping could or should be had? I wouldn't want to go back to the gender clinic approaches of decades past, of gating access to the gatekeepers, eliminating all but a handful per thousand, and leaving people in misery. So in my opinion, if there's a failure in the system, it's in the lack of education and perhaps certification for those who are diagnosing GID/GD or are writing the referrals ... perhaps they shouldn't be the same people? In Case #1, if the plastic surgeon wrote one of the required referrals, it would be a perfect case in point of someone completely inappropriate.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Who or what failed???
that was the question...

first off, it presumes both cases are failures... and it conflates two totally different situations...

the system is not perfect..we are not perfect.. there is an underlying current of my way or the highway in the subsequent answers...there is an underlying current that people coming into "realizations" late in life are to be disbelieved...i read alot of that baloney on tsroadmap(where people like me are openly accused have just having a midlife crisis) and once i read that i never looked at it again...

the strawman (to me) is that there is an underlying mentality of inappropriate cheerleading aiming towards transition and nothing could be further from the case except in limited examples..

we can debate the idea that we are underserved by the medical community or that elements of our self care are risky without elavating the status of transition/RLE to some kind of treatment reserved for perfect transsexuals
i fully accept that my own experience is a big influence on how i approach this.

and fwiw... when i started RLE i waited until i felt i was ready, i saved up my money, i built my support network..i took responsibility for myself ... i knew i would never look back and never did... i get it that rle is a big fricking deal and must be very carefully considered

...i just keep getting the feeling that kathryn thinks that people are not doing this and its the doctors (or our) fault...
i'm ok with being wrong..

[stefan37]

Umm people late in life transitioning. I have always felt since an early age I was born the wrong gender. I coped with how I felt inside for a long long time. I coped and mitigated (not knowing my anxiety and discomfort was GID until a few years ago.) with drugs and alcohol. I crossdressed and that brought for a certain time relief. Confusing the issue is my sexual orientation, I am attracted to females. I married my wife and had 2 kids. Did I want to admit to myself or even other’s I was transsexual? Even believing it in my mind to be true there would be no way I wanted to destroy our lives as we knew them. Finally with my wife’s urging I made an appt with a gender therapist. Exploring my issues with my therapist coupled with discussions on this forum, many of the fears I had were extinguished. When I made the decision to transition I had one and only one fear. The loss of my spouse. Well that fear has materialized and I now feel liberated to move forward without my foot on the brake, if that makes sense.
I feel I have committed by disclosing to others my intention. What is known cannot be unknown.
I am a late life transitioner and by not addressing my condition sooner in life there are obstacles I have to overcome, that I would have had I done this sooner in my life. But I was not ready or not in a position to act on it sooner. Am I not a true transsexual because I am doing it at this late time in my life? I do not know and do not care. I am doing what I feel is correct for me and at a pace I feel comfortable with. I do not care if someone that has transitioned or has had srs wants to label me a pseudo tranny. I have my life to deal with and I will own it in my own fashion and blame no one for any mistakes I make along the way
Oh by the way there is a member in my support group that started transition in the late 70’s, but stopped a couple years later. She resumed her transition about 4 years ago and had SRS last year at age 70.
Does that mean she is not a true transsexual? We are all over the map both in gender mitigation and balancing our lives with those lives we have built a life with. It is not easy and in many cases results in tremendous losses, hurt, pain, and anger and leaves a wake of destruction that one can only stand back and wonder why we are doing this and what do we expect to accomplish?

[Kathryn Martin]

Who or what failed???
that was the question...

first off, it presumes both cases are failures... and it conflates two totally different situations...

...i just keep getting the feeling that kathryn thinks that people are not doing this and its the doctors (or our) fault...
i'm ok with being wrong..

I did not intend to conflate both situations. In the first it is obvious that the two surgeons just did not pay sufficient attention and in doing so let the person down, mental illness or not.

I don't actually assign fault. All I am trying to point out is that both patient and therapist have responsibilities in the process of stepping out on the road of transition. I have been accused of all kinds of things including "midlife crisis", "impotence", "fantasy", you name someone has called me it. While ultimately rejecting it all, it became a checkpoint and each one of them was considered on it's merits no matter how insulting, mean, inappropriate or even disgusting it was. Let me give you an example just for the fun of it:

"So because YOU decided, after years spent cross dressing in the closet, while at the same time lying to your wife and fathering, (how many?), children, that now finally, after sex with "the old lady" wasn't as much fun any more, and the old "magic wand" just wasn't up to the job any more, YOU decided to, "what the heck", might as well "go all the way".

And this is what I answered after very careful consideration of what was said:

"Just to clarify: I have with three exceptions where I tried crossdressing at age 8, age 37 and age 49, never crossdressed until after I decided to transition. At age 8 I tried my mothers shapewear, at age 37 I tried on a dress, at age 49 I tried on pantyhose and heels. I have never needed to lie to my wife. I have four children, having fathered three. My bedroom is no one's business. I have never in my life made decisions on a "what the heck" basis.

What is so perfidious about the comment is, that these are the kind of thoughts that have haunted my life since I was 21. Usually, it is I who asks the questions, accuse myself of being in some closet, lying such as being "stealth" to my family. Sex for me so often was a disaster, because I could not find a proper way to deal with what I inherited, accidentally, and while the equipment is functional I sought intimacy in so many ways except this one that will forever not be what I am. I have fought what having testicles does to me tried to manage this condition that tears viscerally through my body. In fact, what was said sticks the finger into the wound that living my life has left festering until I finally said no more. It was 36 years revisited in one quick, callous sideswipe meant to hurt where the author of the comment knew would hurt most: where I as a transsexual will always can be hurt.

Why am I writing this? I believe that we all, each one of us own our own biography, lock stock and barrel. Every decision we make, every circumstance it entails whether we are it's author or not, and we do not need the guilt trips others put on it, for political gain, polemic, kicks and giggles or any other reasons. And if you do that to anyone, I for one will say: shame on you!"

But you know, it had to be considered. I am of the view that what we do we own. The ultimate arbiter of our decisions is the success or failure. RLE is a therapeutic device which if it fails as in case 2 comes at a very, very substantial cost. So an approach that takes care in self evaluating and evaluating the stance taken by our therapists is more than merited.

I think that a site like this is wonderful for sharing, getting information and discussing issues. But really you cannot rely on it to provide guidance on when and under what circumstances you should transition.

[stefan37]

Even before we reach the point where we would start RLE. The very fact you have chosen to act and transition by taking hormones and other preliminary steps can incur substantial costs both financially and socially. So who should we blame then?

[Kaitlyn Michele]

"So because YOU decided........might as well "go all the way"."

wow... is that something that was said to you?? terrible...i'm sorry that happened...fwiw, maybe i misread or misinterpreted your OP and especially your responses, some of what you said made me feel the same way you were made to feel in your example

and of course you can't rely on people to tell you when to transition...but i will push back on the idea that people here cannot provide guidance...can anyone provide guidance at all except a medical professional? how much guidance can a girl get in $125 45 minute therapy sessions? the best guidance i got was from other transsexuals BY FAR...and the nub of it was "dont transition...but if you find you have to, here's the best way to do it.."

[Badtranny]

wow... is that something that was said to you?? ..

We've all had awful things said to us Kait. You, me, Kat, MM, Kelly, April, Bree, Nicole, Inna, Arbon, Stef, etc etc etc. People think they can say whatever they want to us for some reason. Like the most hurtful things are somehow okay because we are so "different". In fact the essence of being trans is being different. This is what causes people to stop and go back to a "normal" life.

It's hard to be different. It's hard to hear little girls whisper "creepy" when you're in Claire's looking for a damn necklace. RLE is tough, but so is the following year, and for every year after that. You will always be different. This is what we need to stress to the new girls. You can have all the surgery you want, hell, you can have a genie, but if you are transitioning past the age of 40, you will spend the rest of your life looking at the dude you used to be over your shoulder. Forty years doesn't disappear. People don't forget. Problems don't go away.

If you don't know in your bones that this is who you are, and you are not determined to proceed no matter what, then you are crazy to even consider something so crazy.

You know, there's something interesting that I just realized, All of the regular mouthpieces on the TS board have been vilified by the "community" at one time or another. All of us have had our authenticity questioned or ridiculed and NONE of us gave a damn. There's not a transitioned gal on this board who sought the approval of anyone in the "community". I did not need a welcome mat, in fact I took pride in the fact that I was a 'bad' tranny. In my view, the girls that come here looking for support are already needing too much support. If you can't stand against the wind on your own, then you will most certainly get blown away.

[Michelle.M]

If you can't stand against the wind on your own, then you will most certainly get blown away.

Oooh! That's great! I am printing that one out and sticking it on the fridge right now!

But seriously, well said.

[stefan37]

I second that. I will make that my mantra for the next month. "If you can't stand against the wind on your own, then you will most certainly get blown away". Ha

[whowhatwhen]

Again, no trannycred here but I'd say that someone may need to be made stronger (confidence, self esteem, ect) rather than write them off as a confused/broken man.
Either they stop short of transition as intended and find a balance, or they gain the strength they need to continue.

[arbon]

If you can't stand against the wind on your own, then you will most certainly get blown away.



I was so hurting, frustrated and scared at times - if I had not had a few friends that were holding me up and supporting me on this journey when it was really hard, I don't know. I'm glad they were there.

[Amy07]

Reading this emotional chat.... you and i here will not solve this...
Let the court system work through a complex problem.
In the end, nobody will be happy at all.

[Kathryn Martin]

....but i will push back on the idea that people here cannot provide guidance...

I think I qualified my comment to " guidance as to when and under what circumstances one should transition" not about how to transition when you have run out of options.

The how is an entirely different matter.


If you can't stand against the wind on your own, then you will most certainly get blown away.

For a whole variety of reasons I find this an interesting metaphor and statement.

[Badtranny]

if I had not had a few friends that were holding me up and supporting me on this journey when it was really hard, I don't know. I'm glad they were there.

Friends are great, but if you must depend on the strength of others, then you are in trouble before you start. I have wonderful friends who have been great company, but I don't NEED them anymore than I need acceptance from the 'community'. It's nice to have someone to help anchor you, but people have their own lives, and you cannot count on the support of someone else to get you through this journey. You need to be strong enough to do it yourself, and hopefully you wont have to.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Melissa you came here..

didnt you have to learn that you didn't NEED others for approval?.....and you got guidance and advice on how to do that from many sources...perhaps this forum was one source..

..i know i had to learn this, and i know i learned things here that helped me alot...the simple fact that i came here at all, and typed words to people under this name was huge progress for me..

nobody told me what do, but it sure as heck helped me to write and correspond, and i got tons of advice...

part of it is semantics...guidance/advice/approval are being used as if they were one word
...i don't imagine anyone thinks its a good idea to come here and say "should i transition?"...VOTE HERE....
so i have been talking about advice and guidance as having nothing to do with actually approving anything....

btw
Despite being unneccessary, I would not undersell the benefits of getting some approval...

[Badtranny]

Melissa you came here...

Yes and I found a lot of good information. I didn't NEED this place though, I would have found what I needed to find somewhere if not here. If people in my life aren't being supportive, then I move on. I couldn't deal with my issues openly where I used to live, so I moved. I found new friends, in short, I helped myself.

When I decided to pursue my truth, I was steadfast and ready to weather it. I have no family anywhere near me, I have only my wits and my will to survive. It's my earned opinion that anybody who NEEDS sustained emotional support is in no condition to attempt something as potentially catastrophic as a gender transition. I want friends, but I don't need them. I want the support of my community but I certainly don't need it.

Perhaps I'm emotionally broken? Perhaps that's why a life alone is preferable to a life in hiding? Who knows? I have a magazine rack full of issues but at least I'm happy with who I am. It's tough to deal with some stuff transition throws at you, but I can take it, and I can find a way to be happy and I don't NEED anyone's approval or support.

You ever notice that support and approval tends to come at a price? I prefer not to be tethered to the expectations of others. I believe this is the spirit that transition requires.

Of course I could be wrong. It's happened. ;-)

[whowhatwhen]

Friends are great, but if you must depend on the strength of others, then you are in trouble before you start. I have wonderful friends who have been great company, but I don't NEED them anymore than I need acceptance from the 'community'. It's nice to have someone to help anchor you, but people have their own lives, and you cannot count on the support of someone else to get you through this journey. You need to be strong enough to do it yourself, and hopefully you wont have to.

It seems you just have an honest, tough, thick-skinned personality though.
Some are just not as strong emotionally, but IMO they can be supported and built-up rather than having them break down and giving up.

[Kathryn Martin]

When I decided to pursue my truth, I was steadfast and ready to weather it. I have no family anywhere near me, I have only my wits and my will to survive. It's my earned opinion that anybody who NEEDS sustained emotional support is in no condition to attempt something as potentially catastrophic as a gender transition. I want friends, but I don't need them. I want the support of my community but I certainly don't need it.

I don't think you are wrong, but I also don't think you are right either. I have always preferred to build networks of support systems in which everyone supports everyone. I did so in preparation for my transition. Having such networks in place of people not of the "trans" community is enormously helpful. It lends credence to your path, it normalizes what you are doing. This is not at all a transition issue though but rather a human issue. For me the lone, self reliant wolf paradigm never worked. But a lattice work of delicate support structures often show a surprising strength. I like relying on others and others relying on me. It gives a richness to my life.

[LeaP]

I don't believe that toughness and support are mutually-exclusive any more than I do courage and fear.

[arbon]

I agree a lot with you, but were not all the same, we are not all as independent and tough. I learned I was stronger then I knew I could be. I had to take the brunt, this was my deal, I made the choice to transsitoin, I choose to start hrt and I knew there were significant consequences not only for myself but for my family to for what I was doing. Everyday I was the one alone going out that door to face my job and the guys and facing the community - nobody could do it for me. And what ever shit I was getting (and I got my fair share, especially at work) I had to show confidence, that this was real, it was something I had to do. Could not show weakness in what I was doing. But when the day was over there were a lot of times I had to have someone that would just let me cry, or vent, and that would tell me that it is going to be alright you can get through it. Giving me some hope when I was pretty short on it. I needed that so I could manage to I pull myself together enough to face it again the next day.

[Badtranny]

I needed that so I could manage to I pull myself together enough to face it again the next day.

...and you found it, but you faced the next day alone. Everybody needs help on occasion, but depending too much on any one person is never a good strategy in my view. It's best to be fortified on your own so you have something worth sharing as like minded souls drift in and out of your life.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not a lone wolf. I love my friends, but they just are not burdened with my transition. If any of them express discomfort, they are free to go and I will ask someone else to watch my dog.

My point is, you can't go down this path NEEDING help and support. You can always USE it, but if you need it in order to continue, then you have a problem. There will be plenty of times when you will only have yourself to rely on. People will misunderstand you, they will disagree with you, they will disrespect you, they will hate you, and at the end of many days, it will be just you.

People who de-transition are lacking the most fundamental component of survival; The will to stand alone.

[Rianna Humble]

I didn't want to get involved in this sub-debate of Kathryn's thread, but I am struck by Melissa's attitude as evidenced in her last statement above.

Members of these forums often say "Don't judge me until you have walked a mile in my shoes" and they are right. Anyone who has not experienced anything of what we are living has no right to judge. That is equally applicable to one of ours who for any of a variety of reasons find themselves so desperate that they are willing to consider de-transition. Unless we have been there, we cannot even imagine what drove them to such a state of hopelessness. Why is it at this point in their lives that we feel that what they need is harsh judgement instead of compassion?

[Eryn]

With the freedom to choose the path of transition comes the responsibility to make sure that the path is truly the correct one. While medical professionals may assist one in making the decision and carrying it out the ultimate responsibility lies with the person receiving the treatment.

Any other arrangement would have those medical professionals refusing to treat GID for fear of being sued by those whose outcomes did not match their inflated expectations. I do not want to see the options of TG people limited by a small minority wanting to blame others and cash in on their own "buyers remorse."

[Badtranny]

Why is it at this point in their lives that we feel that what they need is harsh judgement instead of compassion?

...and this is at the heart of what I'm saying. To say that I don't have compassion just proves that some people are so emotionally ill prepared for adversity that simply encountering someone with a strong will, is offensive to them.

Rianna, why would someone de-transition if they weren't struggling with the process? I applaud and support anybody who does anything that advances them into living an open and unashamed life, be that transition or otherwise. I'm only here to remind people that transition is a commitment that is not to be taken lightly. It's like changing your brake pads, if you don't have the tools, then don't even start.

[Angela Campbell]

My point is, you can't go down this path NEEDING help and support. You can always USE it, but if you need it in order to continue, then you have a problem. There will be plenty of times when you will only have yourself to rely on.

Although I am at the very beginning, I have to wonder how you can do it without some help and support. Yes you need to be able to stand alone but at times I would think it is necessary. No person is an island. I guess the medical community thinks you will need help and support or they wouldn't require the letter to go forward.

Then again harsh judgment is also necessary as it can bring a dose of reality.

[Kathryn Martin]

Why is it at this point in their lives that we feel that what they need is harsh judgement instead of compassion?

Those that end up detransitioning need much compassion. It is after all the the crushing of a dream. The compassion needed for this person cannot come from an internet site.

At the same time the phenomenon bears scrutiny and the reasons for such a failure must be considered and in my view before you transition in the first place. To use your metaphor don't walk the rocky road in ballerina slippers. If you asked me to do that I would tell you that walking that path in those shoes borders variously on idiocy or lack of responsibility. It is predictable that you will fail because your slippers will be in shreds before you even walked a mile.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

...and you found it, but you faced the next day alone. Everybody needs help on occasion, but depending too much on any one person is never a good strategy in my view. It's best to be fortified on your own so you have something worth sharing as like minded souls drift in and out of your life.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not a lone wolf. I love my friends, but they just are not burdened with my transition. If any of them express discomfort, they are free to go and I will ask someone else to watch my dog.

My point is, you can't go down this path NEEDING help and support. You can always USE it, but if you need it in order to continue, then you have a problem. There will be plenty of times when you will only have yourself to rely on. People will misunderstand you, they will disagree with you, they will disrespect you, they will hate you, and at the end of many days, it will be just you.

People who de-transition are lacking the most fundamental component of survival; The will to stand alone.

now i see where you are going...

i very much like your point about not burdening people with your transition...that is EXACTLY how i felt, it was hugely important to me...having a family meant that i had to burden them, but i gave them time and i supported them in every way and they opened up to me..in return, they chose to support and embrace me...

i have been more focused on needing guidance and advice (how could a person not need that??)...you are talking about being fearless in the face of transition
..its a fine line and like i said...i feel the will to stand alone is just a given..its so obvious i didn't think thats what we were talking about...

and i agree fearlessness is on the inside...but many of us needed guidance to know even that...and the best way to learn is by doing things in my mind..and that includes having some mean old ts lady smacking you upside the head to make sure you get the point..and if that happens here, that's not a bad thing...i said before, just the mere fact that i posted here was a big deal to me...i had to conquer fears to do that.

[Badtranny]

...i feel the will to stand alone is just a given..its so obvious.

Clearly it's not. ;-)

We're now equating "help & support" with letters from doctors and that indicates a wholesale misunderstanding of what I'm trying to say. There is an undercurrent of 'neediness' in some of these comments and many of the newbies. I'm here to say that neediness will not serve you well in transition. People are taking my comments personally, which I always find fascinating, but this isn't about me. I'm just using myself as an example because I'm an authorized expert on my own pathology.

I happen to personally know a couple of rugged broads who are both very early in their transitions, but both have lost their wives, and both are at risk of losing shared custody of their kids. They have had friends and family slowly peel away and of course they face the daily challenges of transition alone. It's a damn good thing these chicks are able to stand firm against the winds of change because they've both seen some heavy gusts. Every time I hang out with one of them, I'm humbled by their determination.

They are the essence of what I'm talking about. Strong rugged individuals who don't get blown around by the whims of others.

[melissaK]

. . . There is an undercurrent of 'neediness' in some of these comments and many of the newbies. I'm here to say that neediness will not serve you well in transition.

Yes, finally this thread gets to where I thought it should go at the beginning. The OP about one member leaving transition to find companionship, bluntly sets forth a REAL risk. If you have a fear of being alone, if you have a neediness for intimately close friends and companions, by ALL accounts, transition will be difficult to impossible.

IMHO I was CLEARLY one of the "neediest" girls here. And last year, listening to Misty(Melissa H/BadTranny), Kathryn, Kaitlyn, and a couple ex-forum members who posted a lot then, I realized how freaking much of a problem I'd have in transition if I remained as "needy" as I was. Fear of being alone, fear of being friendless, it's NOT a TRANSSEXUAL ISSUE. It is however a co-morbid issue that can derail a TS's transition.

I wasn't willing to lose my wife, and I have always had a problem being alone. I have known this about myself. It's one of the reasons "why" I stopped pursuing transition 20 years ago and got into a close relationship with my current wife - she addressed my fear of being alone. But for me, my GD did not care that I had these "neediness" issues. It remained unrelenting.

I had to solve the puzzle of my fear of being alone or transition was going to be a train wreck for me. I had to sort out my love for my wife, with my own neediness and fear of being alone. The boundary is blurred. It's a hard thing to address. But I've had decades of counseling on other issues, and I worked at it the same way I worked on other issues. And I made a lot of headway, I had breakthroughs in understanding where a lot of my neediness came from. It remains my most difficult issue. I am not clear of it.

So when GD was killing me last fall, I really doubted my ability to get through a breakup with my wife without someone to keep me on track. So I got back into formal counseling. And it has helped immensely.

In January when I finally said I had to transition to my wife, and she immediately withdrew emotionally, I was devastated. I hurt so bad. But, in that agony, I knew it was agony over losing someone I loved, not the abject fear of being alone. I could tell the difference in the feelings. I knew I'd be able to stand up and go on.

And my wife and I have somehow, so far, found a way to stay together. Some of this is her dealing with the same complexities and neediness on her side of the relationship. But I can see too, neediness doesn't play the same role in my life anymore. I won't subordinate my desire to transition to the fear of being alone. And I think that's where you have to be to have a chance at a successful transition. (And I don't mean to imply that this all there is to transitioning, I mean only to address this aspect of it.)

And I think that was the whole point of the OP. Getting yourself into a position to be independent enough in your idea of self worth to do this alone if need be. And because transition can take years, you may be isolated longer than you want, you really do have to get this right before transitioning. But the hope is, after transition, and after you settle into being "you," you will be like anyone and can go find friends and lovers same as anyone. And because you will likely be happier, you will maybe be more likeable, and it oughta work out ok. :-)

[whowhatwhen]

So how are you supposed to build yourself up?
I mean, it has to be possible... right?

Personally, a lot of my issues stem from long standing depression and basically shutting down and thus I'm not very emotionally strong.
That being said, even though my path is not complete it certainly will not be ended by resigning myself because of the emotional weakness.

I think people just need to be strengthened as people, not just transsexuals.

[arbon]

Through transition I found I was a much stronger person then I knew I could be.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

me too ...it made me stronger than i knew..

sometimes its not about building yourself up as much as its having a wall at your back

...only by "doing it" does the strength come into your life...this is part of the leap of faith people talk about it...thinking "anything will be better than THIS" is a very common thought at the moment transition becomes part of your inner dialog..

[Badtranny]

I think people just need to be strengthened as people, not just transsexuals.

Agreed and that is exactly my point, though I think MelissaK was able to expound on it quite brilliantly.

As I said earlier about the tools, and Kait furthered with the ballet shoes, you need to be emotionally healthy before you attempt transition. We say it should be a last resort, but to me that doesn't mean transition or die, that means fix everything else first. My transition was the natural result of finally knowing because I'd already addressed everything else. I spent a lifetime trying to get to the bottom of my malaise and self destructive behavior. I had my own neediness issues as well as a host of other anti-social personality quirks. I was able to examine and overcome my BS attitude problems and finally came to the end of the road, emotionally healthy but still profoundly unhappy.

I sometimes lament my wasted youth, but if I were honest I would have to admit that my 30 year old self did not have the tools to face what I've had to face over the last three years of transition. I would have broken for sure, and it might have even been a spectacular disaster.

My advice is simple, fix everything else first. Any burden you bring with you into transition will only get heavier over time.

[LeaP]

i very much like your point about not burdening people ...


... There is an undercurrent of 'neediness' in some of these comments and many of the newbies. ...

I plucked out these two comments because it struck me that I once saw my own need and my sense of burdening people as aspects of the same thing. They are not. When I showed up, I was thoroughly confused, alternately angry and anxious, feeling literally crazy at times, and occasionally suicidal. I didn't ASK for support, but I got it and did, in fact, need it. I was grateful for it, if a little ashamed of being so clueless, and very reluctant to burden anyone by even appearing to lean on them. Lots of you have PMs from me containing apologies for even writing to you.

I don't feel needy any more. Support just feels like support, which is the distinction Misty is making, I think. I'm still happy to have it.

But I still feel the sense of burdening people. It's the whole "I am not worthy" thing, which I think traces back to the fundamental fear of rejection with which many of us grow up, and which drives us inward.

There's a cure for the burden. Once again, it's do more, think less (sigh). This has so many aspects. In this case, it's talking directly to other trans people, which bit by bit gets you over the fear of being yourself. I've been out - that's helped. But yesterday I made my first call to someone here. And again today. The world didn't end and I didn't have to crawl away. Progress.

So for me, necessary support preceeded getting over myself (work in progress) preceeds whatever comes next ...

[whowhatwhen]

I know how you feel about burdening people.
On one hand you want to bear your soul out to whoever will listen, but at the same time feeling bad because it would put a burden on them as well.

I just imagine how someone close would feel if I were, for example, to mention that I feel like crying a lot of the time. It would suck for them because they can't do anything to help me, but they would be stuck knowing I was in pain.

Interestingly enough most of the things I talk with my therapist about are the other things in life causing stress, good god I have no idea how much worse off I'd be if I didn't have her to talk to.

[emma5410]

I have lived my life with a fortress mentality. No relationships, no friends outside of work and work friendships never more than superficial. Never more than what was required to get my job done as smoothly and pleasantly as possible. I was independent. Never relying on others because of the shameful secret that would one day turn them all against me. The joke is it did not happen. When I had to tell people I was met with nothing but support. At work people who used to ignore me go out of their way to smile and say hello. People urge me to open up and trust them. To accept their help. And they are well meaning. And I have done that and started to rely on them and their help. The problem is that it leaves me exposed and vulnerable. I have started to need their help to continue. I have burdened them with my transition. I am struggling with my transition. When I hear of anybody turning back it saps my confidence and increases my doubts. I am coming to understand that it is just me. The support of others is nice, often useful, but I am walking this path not them. A woman who has become a very good friend over the last year told me that she would be walking alongside me in spirit on the day that I returned to work as a woman. It was a lovely thought but, of course, I was really alone. Every step I have taken alone.
I have to stop relying on people and rebuild the fortress. I have to be strong in myself. If others are supportive or helpful that is great but I walk alone as we all do. If I cannot find the strength to do it alone I will not be able to do it at all.

[stefan37]

Fortitude, perseverance, self-confidence and Patience. Four traits I believe are imperative in my quest to transition. I had 1 fear and that was losing my wife. I have lost her and we are living in a platonic style relationship. For how long is either of our guess. We will continue to function as business partners and we are co parents, so we will always have a connection but it will never be the same as the 33 years previous. Her loss has steeled in me a greater commitment to proceed and to succeed. I have tremendous positive energy to bring to the table, and I do not care how people perceive me. Those employees, customers and friends I have told see I am steadfast and committed to living my life authentically. And that has allowed them to feel comfortable around me and respect my decision to transition. Yes we joke around a bit but they also recognize how serious I am to accomplish what I set out to achieve.

The loss of my wife has taken a huge toll and me and I have either called texted or chatted with others about my loss. Those conversations take the sting away, as I realize I am not alone in this journey. I realize this is something I must do myself and more than likely alone as no one can do this for me. As I move forward I am at the stage where I get lots of bewildered stares and usually from men disdain. Woman tend to be more open and friendly. I hope that my experience can be used to help others as they proceed along the same path. The bottom line is we all have to take responsibility for the actions we take and place no blame on others when it goes awry.

[Kathryn Martin]

And I think that was the whole point of the OP. Getting yourself into a position to be independent enough in your idea of self worth to do this alone if need be. And because transition can take years, you may be isolated longer than you want, you really do have to get this right before transitioning. But the hope is, after transition, and after you settle into being "you," you will be like anyone and can go find friends and lovers same as anyone. And because you will likely be happier, you will maybe be more likeable, and it oughta work out ok. :-)

There are two aspects to the OP. People tend to think that identifying themselves as transsexual (often unchecked by any objective opinion) is what needs to be achieved but is only half the profit of the process. The other half is the resilience and the structures that you need to put in place to enable you to be successful in completing the process. You speak to the latter half. In the OP the first half failed in regards to Mr. Smith, the second half went sideways for the second case.

I want to say something about self-reliance and reliance on others. It is a question of how you relate to the world around you. Because the process transition is such a tough one much of what Misty says is directed towards the self reliance approach. I feel this is a matter of survival strategy. I spent years thinking about what my own survival strategies in the context of my brain sex. For me from my earliest memories survival was not achieved so much by "standing up for myself" or "drawing lines" but rather building, as mentioned above networks of allies and support around anticipated issues or problems. If you consider case 2 in the OP it seems clear that she did not have any allies and support once she went RLE. I could not even imagine how it is possible to do that. Same with what Misty describes. It is like being dropped into the ocean out of sight of land and swimming for your life.

In my transition I credit support given to me freely and with love for my success. But allies and support do not come from antagonizing those that (as I see it) we need most. In my view being truthful with those that we love and rely upon is not antagonizing. Including my spouse, my children, my professional partner, my friends in the transition planning and execution made this, notwithstanding that it was also painful, a joyful event if you will. We all had a stake in this. For me it was unequivocally the most important matter to not step on the path until I had brought them with me to the insight of the inevitability of what I had to do (I mean "I must"). For me through the wall head first has never been an attractive option.

Others may differ, but independence and self reliance is not an antonym to reliance on others.

And Lea, your worthy of support, you are no burden, and you may lean on me anytime.

[melissaK]

No disagreements Kathryn. You are right, I should clarify that I wasn't recommending this be done alone. I "assumed" people would reach out to kindred souls and such, but one needs strength to be alone "if need be."

For me these transition sister relationships should not be the foundation that my self worth depends on, they should not be what my resolve to transition is contingent upon. Rather, they are relationships built by a me that is secure (reasonably secure) in going forward whether any particular relationship works or not.

And for me, I'm fairly affable, and I can make friends with any manner of gypsies tramps and thieves, but can I handle being alone in my bed at night? For me, that's the hardest time. That's when I'm likeliest to need to use a lifeline. And Kathryn, I'm mindful of the advice I should have a few lifelines in place. And I do.

As for ignoring the first part of your OP, yes. I did that. I thought the underlying story's facts were too chaotic and unreliable to do much with - and I thought people discussed that first part pretty well right away. It was the second part that was intriguing. It took a while for this group to focus on it and wring its lessons out.

It's been a good thread. :-)

[Kathryn Martin]

I so agree with you. This thread is evolving beautifully. Think about survival strategies not from a quantitative perspective but from a qualitative perspective.

[Marleena]

This has been a great thread Kathryn! I hope I don't mess it up with this.

@ Lea I have felt out of place in this section too. I have PM'ed a few of the girls (much like you) and found them to be awesome though. For me I was feeling a bit intimidated because I'm new to my reality and all of this. I know I don't have much to offer. It doesn't help that I'm going a bit against the flow as I'm making compromises with my wife and I'm sure I'll raise a few eyebrows. I'm taking it slow and only doing what is required to improve my own life, I'm the only one that has to live it. This forum is only for sharing ideas, when the going gets tough nobody in cyber world will be by my side. I'll probably never meet anybody here since I'm in Canada. What I can tell you is I have one exceptional friend from here I'll call a mentor. She'll give me a cyber kick in the rear if I need it. She truly gets me and I can relax and have fun with her.

I have a TS group with real people to fall back on if the going gets too tough. All I have to do is hop in my car and drive to meet up with them. So yeah I'm doing things my way and nobody has to meet my standards or prove anything to me. I don't feel the need to prove myself either. If I don't meet somebodies criteria, oh well.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

the thing about "not burdening people" is that many people gladly accept the charge of helping out...its about THRIVING in your transition as best you can...being direct and honest about your need to transition is not burdening people...
if there is incoming help/support/guidance, or a friendly ear that listens, you are well served to gladly take them and its not a burden to do so..

as it relates to this forum specifically its not a burden at all to reach out to people for their thoughts..that's what its here for..some of us are not blessed with easy access to real life people that have been through this...

i can't stress enough the importance of meeting transsexual women (and if you feel confused crossdressers too) to help understand what "its really like" and to help go eyeball to eyeball and see how you connect with people...
marleena what you said about connecting with someone is really a good thing for you... when you connect with someone it truly goes both ways..it enriches both people when that connection is made..and it probably feels especially good that its in the context of "being Marleena"...and its worth traveling 1000 miles to meet those folks and make those connections directly.. and not just when the going gets tough...

[Kathryn Martin]

"i can't stress enough the importance of meeting transsexual women (and if you feel confused crossdressers too) to help understand what "its really like" and to help go eyeball to eyeball and see how you connect with people..."I have never been part of a so called support group or even met any transwomen prior to deciding to transition. I went to Provincetown for 4 days in October 2004 and that was great mainly because of the couples counseling they put on. For me talking to and seeing transwomen including here and on my blog served more to confused me than anything else. I needed firm, concrete, competent advice and what I got was mostly was of the "we are all different but here is my story" variety which I am sorry to say for me has been quite useless. But that is just me. I did and do have a few really good friends though in whose judgement I place a lot of stock. A few of those friends are born women, some are women of history.

[Marleena]

Yep, it depends on the support group. Some are more like social gatherings and you need to shop around. Ours is very active with the government agencies and the TS health services and getting people the help they need. They were a life saver for me. There is nothing for transgender people in my city nor can I find any other people like me here.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

it does depend on who you meet.

more than anything it was seeing myself in them that changed me and help me feel good about what was going on in my mind..
..it was making wonderful connections that i still enjoy today.. sorry that didn't or can't happen for others, it made a huge difference for me...