My gay hairdresser is prejudice???

[Natalie Wood]

This one threw me:

So today I was getting my hair cut by my stylist who is openly gay, married to a man and they have a son. One conversation led to another and he commented how he went to Walmart with a male friend who is transitioning. His friend was going to bring his purse into the store and my stylist would not go in with him because of it. After asking him questions it was evident that he is intolerant of this lifestyle. It also seemed clear that he questions whether a transgendered person has a choice or not in being who they are. To sum it up, his attitude was that gay people do not have a choice but transgendered people do. I was really surprised to hear this from a gay person. :eek:

Does this seem strange to any of you? How can a gay man who has no doubt fought against prejudices his whole life be intolerant of or not understand that in most cases a cd/transgendered lifestyle is not a choice? It is just who you are.

Furthermore, this interaction has given me new doubts about if certain people in my life will accept my lifestyle. But I guess it just goes to show that we are not very well understood. Yet :battingeyelashes:

My wife said I should have lowered the boom on him about me at that point. But I really felt like he did not deserve to know something that personal about me.

[Laura912]

Anyone, regardless of their sexual preference, can and will at times be ignorant of the issues with which others have to deal. Although I can understand your reaction, why does it surprise you? Just because he is gay does not infer intelligence nor knowledge of the gender spectrum. Would it be helpful to ask him how he would react to knowing that one of his clients is cd/transgendered?

[Melissa Rose]

I am not surprised. Sexual orientation and gender expression and identity are not strongly connected or correlated. Just because someone is gay does not mean they understand or accept transgenderism. Ignorance can cause or fuel fear, stereotyping and prejudice in anybody. Some assume or believe gay bars are completely safe havens for transgendered individuals; however, this may not always be the case. There is usually a high level of tolerance, but total acceptance is not a given. Some of the most snarkiest or biting comments about cross dressers I have heard or heard about have been voiced by gay men. Tolerance and acceptance are not the same thing and sometimes thought of being the same or assumed to always be present as a pair. These are an incorrect assumptions.

[Swottie]

Hope you didn't leave him any tips, well not the monetary kind anyway.

[Eryn]

Being gay or TG does not mean that someone is not prejudiced. Consider that there are CDs that do not like, for whatever reason, to associate with TS people, and vice versa. It does not surprise me at all that a particular gay person might not want to associate with a TS person.

The vast majority of us are tolerant of others because we realize that we all occupy different cabins on the same boat. If the gay person's cabin takes on water it doesn't look good for mine either.

[Jenniferathome]

Being gay does not put you on the inside of transgenderism. Gay people can be ignorant too.

[Nicole Erin]

Hell with what gay people think.
TG and gay are not even close to being the same thing.

[Ciara Brianne]

In every group there are those who are intolerant of anything they do not like. Mostly this dislike is based in willful ignorance. If someone does not take the time to try to understand, they are not worth the time for you to try to understand their point of view. There are so many closed minds in this world...it's sad...these people have no idea all the wondrous things in the world and as a result they limit their experience in life. Their loss.

Ciara:<3:

[Natalie Wood]

Hell with what gay people think.
TG and gay are not even close to being the same thing.

All very insightful comments. The only similarity that I see in the two is the fact that "It is the way you are born." I would expect a gay person to be able to understand that having gone through their own struggles.

I guess it comes down to whether or not a person (straight or gay) accepts the fact that a TG person is born that way. Today just really struck me in a peculiar way. I never realized that this was possible. So Yes, I was surprised. Naive...Guilty I suppose.

[Cheryl Ann Owens]

This has my head spinning. Had he grown up in the 1950's he'd be welcoming the acceptance he enjoys today. Unfortunately trans people are still lagging behind. How can he judge someone being the hyppocrite he is?!

[kellycan27]

Guilt by association? Read all the "I am not gay" posts right here on this forum!

[brenne]

A LOT of prejudice against us TG/CDs etc comes from gays who are like "I'm a man and I like men" and want nothing to do with female things....

[Nicole Erin]

See, that is one thing with the gay and les communities -
Gay and les are a dime a dozen. They can afford to be prejudice. The straight community doesn't make much issue of their straightness. For us TG though -
There just are not very many who are "out" cause many are closeted and a few are "stealth" or highly passable TS. So where does that leave us not-so-passable "out" TS? Well, there aren't enough of us to really have a strong community so our main choice is to assimilate into the vanilla world as much as we can. I for one have enough friends and acquaintances that if some gay or les person doesn't like me or want anything to do with me, it is NO loss.
I will admit that if a TS person who I wanted to be friends with gave me a could shoulder, it would hurt but I haven't run into that yet.

[kellycan27]

A LOT of prejudice against us TG/CDs etc comes from gays who are like "I'm a man and I like men" and want nothing to do with female things....

And the same applies to TG/CD people who say.. I am a man and I like women and I don't want a thing to do with gay men. People who live in glass houses .....

[Marleena]

Consider that there are CDs that do not like, for whatever reason, to associate with TS people and vice versa. It does not surprise me at all that a particular gay person might not want to associate with a TS person.


True that!


Guilt by association? Read all the "I am not gay" posts right here on this forum!

True we have seen threads where people on this board won't associate themselves with LGBT movement because of what the G stands for alone. It's a two way street but no fun when it is directed at you or what you identify as.

[whowhatwhen]

This sort of thing is the best argument in favour of equality, we're are all equally capable of being ***holes.

[Marleena]

This sort of thing is the best argument in favour of equality, we're are all equally capable of being ***holes.

Hey! I resemble that remark.:D

[whowhatwhen]

Not you!
You're as pure as the driven snow :daydreaming:

[Sophie_C]

A ton of gay people, especially gay men, are INCREDIBLY prejudice against the trans community. This is the heart of why we're always thrown under the bus "for later" when it comes to civil rights. I think confusion and jealousy is part of it, but I don't know the whole picture why. Know what you saw is common, extremely common...

[Julie Gaum]

Seems that all the posts took the slight from a gay personally except for Brenne. Agreed that homosexuals should be tolerant just as they expect society to accept them. But gays have many of the same "human" instincts that include intolerance. As long as I can remember the
gay community in general have seldom reached out to CDs for the reason Brenne explained.
Don't sweat it.
Julie

[Barbara Ella]

Julie elegantly phrased my take on people. People are people, and inherent in people are prejudices of one form or another. There is no reason to expect not to find the same prejudices in all segments of society. We hope that crtain segments will be more understanding given their history, but more understanding does not eliminate the feelings entirely from that segment. If you expect behavior from one segment, don't be surprised to find it in another. Understand it? no, accept it, no, leave it alone and find another friend, or in this case stylist, yes.

Barbara

[Cheryl Ann Owens]

It just Pi$$$$e$ me off that the people who have once felt to be the most mis-understood and prejudiced against, made fun of, ostracized, and discriminitated in the workplace are gaining acceptance, now rail against people like us! Ummm, you got a break. How about us?

[Annette Todd]

I have had some associations with persons in the gay/les community. I can tell you they have prejudices against each other. For example, there are lesbians that will not have anything to do with lesbians who have been with a man or were once married.
BTW, I do not support the equal rights coalition's goals. Sure, give them access rights but marriage is something I consider sacrosanct. jmo

cheers
Annette

[Rianna Humble]

I was getting my hair cut by my stylist who is openly gay, married to a man and they have a son. One conversation led to another and he commented how he went to Walmart with a male friend who is transitioning. His friend was going to bring his purse into the store and my stylist would not go in with him because of it. After asking him questions it was evident that he is intolerant of this lifestyle.

I am unsure of the link between your lifestyle and someone who is transitioning

Also, when you say "a male friend who is transitioning", do you meant that they are transitioning from female to male? Otherwise, your stylist's friend is a woman who is transitioning

It would not be out of place to ask your stylist to revisit his prejudice by considering what happened at the original Stonewall riots.

[MissTee]

I think it's an individual thing and we shouldn't say all gays "are" or "are not" anything. I frequent a spa and see the same ladies every time. Mani-pedi, massage, facial. My legs are frequently shaved, and I've inadvertently left traces of polish on my nails. I know they noticed. How? The nail tech is gay and she invited me out to meet with her and some friends specifically remarking, "several of them are transgendered, too." Ooops.

[MysticLady]

I can tell you they have prejudices against each other. For example, there are lesbians that will not have anything to do with lesbians who have been with a man or were once married.
Annette
Really,I wonder why that is:thinking:


A ton of gay people, especially gay men, are INCREDIBLY prejudice against the trans community.

Why would they be. Many men have sexual relations with TG/TS girls. Wouldn't that be considered a gay act? Or is that the men involved with TG/TS girls want the manly junk in a pretty package. Who knows, I surely don't.

[whowhatwhen]

BTW, I do not support the equal rights coalition's goals. Sure, give them access rights but marriage is something I consider sacrosanct. jmo

cheers
Annette

Please tell me this means what I think it means...
:daydreaming:

It's nice to know I can be punished for not being born straight/cis.
Punished too hard of a word? Let's try "Dirty ****** doesn't deserve the same rights and freedoms"?
:)

[Brynna M]

It sucks that this guy is intolerant. With that said he is one guy not the entire gay community. Intolerance is inherently unreasonable. The reasonable expectation the someone who has experienced intolerance would not inflict it on others fails in the presence of irrational unreasonable nature of intolerance.

[Beverley Sims]

Sounds like an oxymoron to me.
Oh! no it isn't....

He's just a moron.

I would personally give him the finger.
He gives gays a bad name.

[stephNE]

I have noticed this too. I used to work for a large company that was located in Washington DC, very close to Dupont Circle. At lunch a number of the "guys" would go to lunch together and we would frequently see a number of trans and CD people. The few openly gay guys would make the most derogatory comments about them. I never understood why. Certainly not the same, but seems like a similar situation to me.

[noeleena]

Hi,

I have some gay friends well Jos & i do, plus our grandaughter Dejarn,they are pretty neat.

Yet i have been told with no dought i would not be accepted as a female or woman regardless no matter what i did or was done to me surgery wise even if it was a possable to have my womb & evey detail & give birth to my child, they wont accept im female let alone a woman. thier attitude is i can only be a male because i look like one these women are lesbain & we know them well enough over a year at our meetings of 7 women & 3 gay men the men did not have an issue with me .

Gay or lesbain,
Some women are hardliners so wont accept those of us who are intersexed now most men are or seem to not mind though are not at all interested in our issues , that would be quite normal & why should they any way its not an issue,though our friends are quite happy talking about all details & getting to know each other so its just part of converstion,

Now this gets worse, i have talked with some who are trans & dresser's who dont wont to know or be around us because we are intersexed so we are not wonted are not accepted & dont wont anything to do with us in any way shape or form , we are total rejected, & as i soon found out by some here in N Z .

One reason i keeped my mouth shut when i had anything to do with the media papers or N Z T V,

yet i have not been rejected by our Jos & i friends those who have got to know us over the years, ill use normal people = meaning those who have nothing to do with any trans or dresser groups ,

I have been involved with a large group of women 160 yes lesbain those i talked with some 5 years ago were lovely were happy to be next to me be around myself with no thought of oh ... your different your not ...oh... just say it , two planks missing, weird , so not all people regardless of the group or what they do are not all out to reject those of us who are,,,,,different, Some are no matter the person,

Most of my friends & Jos knows quite a few are women they dont dont have any issues with me we do have a gay friend who is gay & likes dressing ,

...noeleena...

[kimdl93]

It takes all kinds, as they say. But I wouldn't extrapolate too much from this one persons opinion. I know lots of gay men and women who entirely accept me as I am.

[Marleena]

Natalie It's up to you how you want to deal with your hairdresser but I bet it would have floored him if you came out as a Cder right then. We've all heard these kind of comments of intolerance. It sucks but it happens quite frequently no matter where you are on the TG scale. There are fractures and intolerance within our own groups on this board. It's just the way it is.

[Tina B.]

Well very interesting, after reading every comment for two pages I have learned, gay people are human, just as trans people are. Some gay people don't understand, or like trans people.
Some trans people don't think gay people deserve the same rights as every other American, It seems to me, there could be a whole lot more understanding and acceptance in this world, and we should all stop worrying about what rights others have, and work on what rights we want to have! Let's let gays have their rights, and lets all look ahead to the day that we might be treated as just average people ourselves, someday, and not have everyone freaking out about what we wear, or how we walk and talk! Let's work to make everyone equal.

[Jenniferathome]

.... the people who have once felt to be the most mis-understood and prejudiced against, .... now rail against people like us!

This is the crux of the issue. This is an individual, not the voice of a people. Don't rush to judge the group because of one ignorant person. It is ironic and sad about this individual, but that's it. "Gays" can not be brought into this.

[Kate Simmons]

The fact is that a****les exist in all venues and situations my friend. It's obvious that what works for some doesn't work for others but being intolerant of the other guy proves nothing.:)

[Brenn]

I'm actually not surprised. I have several gay friends who are generally intolerant of crossdressers (although for some reason it seems to be OK during gay pride parades when it is done as a form of mockery). Others are more open. I would not be surprised if the proportion of gays intolerant of crossdressing is about the same as the general population. For that reason I have always wondered why transgendered is lumped in gays and lesbians (GLBT).

[Jill]

Without having read much of what has already been said... On one hand I'm surprised, and on another I'm not. The things they ask from others, a live and let live attitude, for some reason, is not one that they seem to be able to adopt on behalf of people who crossdress. People who are gay often label themselves as "open minded" and some seem to think that if they are gay they are automatically "open minded" and that is just nonsense. On the other hand, I think human beings are generally close minded, prejudice and hypocritical. I think those are often just default our settings and we have to actively work to turn them off. Every month I go out to the local LGBTQ center for our tri-ess meeting and I still get a lot of stares from the LGB's and the Q's. I also often feel confused why we're included in there but yet not so much.

[Natalie Wood]

Natalie It's up to you how you want to deal with your hairdresser but I bet it would have floored him if you came out as a Cder right then. We've all heard these kind of comments of intolerance. It sucks but it happens quite frequently no matter where you are on the TG scale. There are fractures and intolerance within our own groups on this board. It's just the way it is.

Yes that would have been an interesting moment I'm sure. I just think about his profession though...a hairdresser/stylist. Just from my experiences I find that people in this profession tend to talk too much about other people's lives to other clients. But in their defense they probably hear all kinds of troubles, juicy gossip and other interesting tidbits from all of their clients.

I happen to be in a place where my wife supports me and a hand full of family knows about my lifestyle. But I am not ready for the whole town to know. Hence one of the reasons why I didn't say anything to him...lol.

[Rianna Humble]

Jill, I'm not sure which "they" you are referring to. Gay people are not an homogeneous mass any more than any single member of this site can be said to represent the whole membership.

When we adopt an "us and them" attitude to ANY part of society we become guilty of the same lack of tolerrance that we bemoan in others.

As far as I can tell, there are two major reasons why the less prejudiced Lesbians and Gays have associated with our struggle:

They remember what the Stonewall riots were all about
They understand that Trans folk are in a similar position with respect to rights as they were 15 to 20 years ago and want to help.

There will always be idiots in every sector of society, lets not turn this into a Gay Bashing thread because Natalie's stylist happens to be an idiot.

{Moderator hat on}
Any further "us and them" posts in this thread will be deleted
{/Moderator hat on}

[Lorileah]

we all have a choice. My choice would be to find another hair dresser who liked "me' and didn't insult me by telling me that I didn't know who I was. I would tell him that too as I walked out the door so he could re-evaluate his position.

[Sabrina133]

My first boyfriend hated the fact that i was a Crossdresser and he derided the TG/TS community all the time. Its why we broke up. Interestingly enough, am now with a bi-woman who loves the fact that I am very feminine. It takes all kinds.

[flatlander_48]

They can afford to be prejudice.

That's the thing, they can't really afford to be but many don't understand that. What isn't understood is that society at large often doesn't seen the distinctions and subtleties that exist in the community. To society at large, we are ALL HOMOS, even though we know differently. Somehow, I don't think you're going to hear Bubba say "Leave those faggots alone. Let's go kick some CD a++.". If society really thought that as crossdressers and transgender people we were truly separate, why is the assumption that we are all gay? I mean, how many here have said that when they came out to someone there first question was "Are you gay?".

While folks revere what happened at Stonewall in the summer of '69, they forget that it was the crossdressers and drag queens that stood up. Remember the quote: "No one is free until we are all free.". We are all somewhere under the umbrella of sexual minorities and it's time that folks act like it.

[Eryn]

Isolate any subset of a population and they will immediately set about identifying differences among themselves and often discriminating among part of the subset due to these perceived differences. Look up "paper bag test" to see how this phenomenon affects another group that "should know better."

[KellyJameson]

Many gay men are under tremendous internal pressure to protect their externally presented masculine image in a social setting because they are trying to escape the sterotypical image of a homosexual man as being feminine.

Gender identity as "masculine" has become very important to the homosexual male in a public setting.

Heterosexual men do the exact same thing, where they will react to perceived threats to how they want to be perceived because their sexual identity and their gender identity reinforce each other and this is the same direction homosexual men are moving.

You could say that these men are protecting their own sense of gender as masculinity and transsexuals are an affront to this.

People become prejudicial when their identity is threatened.

Transsexuals will always be outliers regardless of whether they are associating with those who identitfy as heterosexual or homosexual or somewhere in between.

Like a vise closing on the transsexual they become crushed between the forces of sexual identity and gender identity in others.

Identity formation is a biological imperative that all people are compelled to create and to the degree that you are not able to you will have corresponding mental illness from the dissociative state that you are than forced to live in which is experienced as movement between intense anxiety and numbness but a complete absence of sense of self as self awareness.

The perceived threat to identity is proportional to the persons need to defend it and the need to defend it is proportional to those forces that have prevented its development.

Much of the conflict between people is from that which is missing in one person bumping up against that which is missing in another.

[StarrOfDelite]

Natalie Wood, You mentioned your wife in your OP, so I'm thinking that you regard yourself as a hetero crossdresser. I was curious whether the gay male hair stylist knew this, and, if he did, whether you think he would have been more sympathetic if you had been a gay, bisexual or pansexual crossdresser.

Regarding the strangeness of an openly gay man being unsympathetic to CD's and TG's, is this any stranger than the conservative politicians and fundamentalist christians who are closet gays and yet extremely homophobic? Human sexuality and gender identity are far too complicated for simple explanations imo.

[flatlander_48]

Regarding the strangeness of an openly gay man being unsympathetic to CD's and TG's, is this any stranger than the conservative politicians and fundamentalist christians who are closet gays and yet extremely homophobic? Human sexuality and gender identity are far too complicated for simple explanations imo.

What you're speaking of is Internalized Homophobia. There are also similar internalizations of every ism, such as Internalized Sexism, Internalized Racism, etc. It is what happens when one's self-loathing gets bad enough that the next step is taking on the beliefs of the oppressor.

[Karren H]

My gay son is the same way.... so were the gay guys working at Saphora when I went into buy makeup one time.... guess bigotry and sexual preference are not related?

[whowhatwhen]

Prejudice hides in some of the strangest places, sometimes right under our noses where it taunts us.

[DianeDeBris]

There's not a single group on the planet that hasn't experienced oppression and hatred; and not one which, despite its collective experience, hasn't treated others the same horrific way. There are, I'm afraid, precious few individuals with the personal and moral character to actually treat all others as we'd want to be treated. Every immigrant group wants to close the gates behind it, every religious group wants full equality for itself, wants to be spoken of respectfully, and yet indulges in cruel comments about other, parallel groups. Not every individual in every group; but this behavior so permeates human conduct that it seems to point to a universal human tendency: everybody wants to be able to feel superior to others, and pretty much all of us give in to that temptation occasionally, some of us frequently. It's interesting, I think, that (absent conscious bullying, which is a related concept) rarely does anyone make unkind comments about "them" (no matter who "they" might be) when conscious that "one of them" is present; and when such comments are made and the presence of "one of them" is realized, the usual reaction of the offensive speaker is embarrassment. Sadly, it's a human weakness against which we all need to guard.
On another note: "Not you!You're as pure as the driven snow." Mae West used to say, "I was as pure as the driven snow . . . . but I drifted.".

[whowhatwhen]

Moe also said that about Curly.
;)

[ReineD]

Being gay or TG does not mean that someone is not prejudiced. Consider that there are CDs that do not like, for whatever reason, to associate with TS people, and vice versa. It does not surprise me at all that a particular gay person might not want to associate with a TS person.

Also, how many straight CDs are quick to say they enjoy presenting as a woman and in the same breath, they adamantly pronounce that they're NOT gay. Prejudice runs both ways.

As to your friend's reaction, Natalie, I'm not surprised. We had a long running thread sometime last year, I believe it was close to 8-10 pages. The OP asked how all his gay CD friends in the forum were doing, relationship wise. The majority of our gay members reported similar experiences as our straight members: gay boyfriends disliked their partners crossdressing just as much as straight GGs. This makes sense, because gay men like men and not women.

And bisexuals are not guaranteed to accept the CDing either. I had a friend who said that she liked her men to be men, and her women to be women. In another thread that I read a few minutes ago, members have said the same thing about some bisexuals they know too.

I am so looking forward to the time where society will accept that gender is not binary. We really do need to start teaching our kids about gender and sexual variance in schools.

[arbon]

I am not surprised at all. There is so much difference between the groups, why should they get it any more then anyone else. And like Eryn said look at the divide even within the tg community especially between CD's and TS's

I do have some good gay friends. One of whom I confided a great deal about my gender struggles in. He had a hard time understanding, it is outside his experience. But he tried.

I always find it funny to when people get to know I am trans how many of them will then tell me about their gay friends or family member, the guy down at the chevron that is gay....you know. its just weird oh you are trans you are part of the gayness, part of them. And really no I'm not. And they have no experience with being trans because there are not. So I say well mybe my gay friends can get together with yuor gay friends and have a good time.

[ReineD]

I do have some good gay friends. One of whom I confided a great deal about my gender struggles in. He had a hard time understanding, it is outside his experience. But he tried.

This bears keeping in mind, because it's important.

It's easy to feel prejudiced about a faceless category of people based on nebulous, vague stereotypes. BUT it's been my experience that most people, as long as they are arm's length (not spouses, parents, children, bosses, etc), have a change of heart once when they actually interact at length with the real person and realize this is someone who is not much different than they are ... someone who just wants to live their life and be happy too.

I'll bet my bottom dollar, Natalie, that if you had told your stylist that you crossdress, he would have been surprised and you might have helped him to realize there are actually some very nice, ordinary people who do crossdress. :)

Baby steps.

[flatlander_48]

its just weird oh you are trans you are part of the gayness, part of them. And really no I'm not. And they have no experience with being trans because there are not.

No, I don't think it works like that. As a bisexual male, I have no experience with being lesbian. Further, even though I crossdress, I have no experience with transgender. Even though I have no direct experience, I've made it a point to try to understand what is going on for people. Therefore, philosophically and politically, I choose to align myself with the LGBT community. It doesn't do us any good to separate ourselves. Society at large doesn't; why should we?

[Jenniferathome]

Also, how many straight CDs are quick to say they enjoy presenting as a woman and in the same breath, they adamantly pronounce that they're NOT gay. Prejudice runs both ways.

Reine, I do not think this is the same thing. When the straight CDers write that they are straight, I believe it is because of the stereotype that cross dressers are gay. The presumption is being corrected and is not necessarily a backhanded slight of gay people.

[Julogden]

Sorry to hear about your hairdresser. I'm appalled to hear something like that, but there are prejudiced people in all walks of life.

I was around the gay community for many years in the 1980's and 1990's, and honestly never experienced anything like that. I had a lesbian roommate for 5 years and she had no issues with me being transgendered. Two bartenders and one of the waiters, all gay men, at the Baton in Chicago were great friends, hugely supportive to me when I began going out dressed, as well as others at other places. Later, I was a regular at a nearby lesbian bar, and the vast majority of the women were friendly and supportive too, made some very nice friends there.

Carol

[Lorileah]

When the straight CDers write that they are straight, I believe it is because of the stereotype that cross dressers are gay. The presumption is being corrected and is not necessarily a backhanded slight of gay people.

And maybe the gay person is in the same boat where the lay community believes that CDs are gay and they need to correct that also. I think we should all be together and work toward one equal standard, but the CDs who quote
I am NOT gay!!!! at every turn are really no better than the gay who says they don't want anything to do with the TG community. They are both living in a stereotypic world. Screaming for the rooftops is not a backhanded way of slighting gays, it is blatant. Funny how one can see their own ox being gored but ignore their neighbor's

I still say that the hairdresser needs a quick lesson in empathy and tolerance. Reine is right, this is a two way street. A narrow two way street where eventually there will be a head on collision.

[Darla]

Okay - two options. One, tell him your TG or TS or CD and educate him on how that hurt your feelings, and that NO - it's not a choice. Outcome: possibly effect some change in one persons life. Risk: outing yourself, but maybe gaining some deeper understanding of his views.

Or find another hairdresser.

Or - tee her - bring in a wig and ask him to style it a little better.

Darla

[whowhatwhen]

If you're going for the chew-him-out method it's probably better to wait until he's no longer holding scissors.
o_o

[PaulaQ]

And maybe the gay person is in the same boat where the lay community believes that CDs are gay and they need to correct that also.

That seems unlikely Lorileah, with all due respect. I think it's much more likely that either:
- TG/TS is somewhat embarrasing to him, because we get lumped in with gay folks
- People who are victims of prejudice are sometimes quite prejudiced themselves. It's human nature to look down on others, and we're lower on the social stratum.


I think we should all be together and work toward one equal standard, but the CDs who quote

I am NOT gay!!!
at every turn are really no better than the gay who says they don't want anything to do with the TG community. They are both living in a stereotypic world.

I think this is a good point. I think I'm not going to answer questions about my sexuality anymore, at least with respect to being TG. It is irrelevant, and a distraction. At the very least, I'll no longer volunteer this information.

The thing about people who feel the need to shout out their sexual preference when talking about their gender identity is that I think that some of us may want to feel like "well, at least I'm not gay!" The irony, of couse, is that from most of society's perspective, being gay is a LOT more acceptable and understood than being CD/TG/TS. (Contrast states that allow gay marriage vs. states that want to restrict where TG folks can go to the restroom...)

[Barbara Dugan]

I took a break from the site from the site for some time and it's good to know things remain the same :heehee:....I would suggest everyone to take a peak at the forum from Straight Acting.COM...it will give you a better understanding of the gay community:2c:

[whowhatwhen]

What do you mean?
The (NOT GAY) or "some of my best friends are dirty, disgusting f*****s but I don't want them getting murrayed"?

[Rogina B]

LGBTQ..We all fall under the 'queer"umbrella as far as the rest of the world thinks. And there is nothing wrong with that.Individual opinions don't represent a whole group,and some people are just opinionated anyway..water off a duck's back..

[Jenniferathome]

And maybe the gay person is in the same boat where the lay community believes that CDs are gay and they need to correct that also.

No Lorileah, you need to re-read the OP. This gay hair dresser was actively denigrating someone who was TS. Even refusing to go in to a store because they had a purse. THAT does not equate, in the remotest sense, to a stereotypical correction or a simple statement of fact.

[flatlander_48]

One thing to think about:

Whenever you contradict someone, and in this case it's some pretty deep-seated stuff, you have to do it in such a way that people can still hear you. If you belittle or make light of someone's prejudices, they have all they need to stop listening to you...

[Natalie Wood]

I love this forum. Reading the posts on this issue really have allowed me to see many angles related to this. I like that most of us here can disagree, offer different views and opinions and do it respectfully.

Darla...lol I like your idea of going in with a wig. Ha ha that would be awesome. And Jennifer, I love your level-headed, straight to the point views. You rock!

Thank you everyone for sharing your thoughts.

[Loni]

I am not so great with the words, but Melissa rose has said it about the best way one can.

Loni

[Ressie]

I think a lot of this is the hairdresser didn't want attention drawn to himself in the store. Even if he's openly gay doesn't mean he wants to walk around with another guy carrying a purse. But if his friend is transitioning it seems that - 1. his friend may be TS, hence is born this way, 2. if he were prejudiced why would he be friends with the TG anyway?

We all have choices, but the logical choice is to be true to yourself.

[flatlander_48]

I think a lot of this is the hairdresser didn't want attention drawn to himself in the store.

In the work and professional sense, what you said is the origin of the notion: "Bring your whole self to work.". So many LGBT people have invested a lot of energy in flying under the radar or almost being anonymous in order to avoid attracting attention. Attention is bad because it often brings questions. Questions are bad because people usually expect answers and you have to decide how much of the truth you are willing to reveal. So yes, attempting to remain anonymous can be a strong motivator; unfortunately...

[NicoleScott]

What is this obsession with "I am NOT gay" being the same as gay-hating? Especially if someone says that to factually correct a misconception that many have that CDers are gay. In another thread (or two, I think) Reine stated that she did not hold hands in public when her SO in en femme beause she did not want to be seen as a lesbian. I have no problem with this - saying or doing something so people won't think a person is gay if they aren't and choose not to be thought of as gay.

[Aly Cat]

My GG coworker (One of the 4 people who know) is bi and she looks at me like some science experiment. She is roommates with 3 gay men and all of them are baffled with me. Im straight, but love to wear womens clothing. None of them have ever heard of such a thing. They certainly arent against it, but she is always asking me questions about what I like, gender preference, etc. She loves it and wants me to go to PRIDE with her in downtown later this year. I highly doubt I will be able to and am not entirely sure its appropriate anyways since I am in fact married. I still like that I am accepted by her and her friends, but I sort of feel like a lab rat lol.

[flatlander_48]

What is this obsession with "I am NOT gay" being the same as gay-hating?

Clearly, it is not an automatic. Possible, but not automatic.

That said, one has to weigh the response given. Personally, my yardstick may be summed up by: "The lady doth protest too much, methinks". Making a point is one thing, but the intensity anf frequency may suggest a different story.

This is really interesting to me because it could be quite a unique opportunity for all of you.


My GG coworker (One of the 4 people who know) is bi and she looks at me like some science experiment.

In other times, this would have been like someone's first Asian, Black, Jewish, gay, etc. (fill in the blank) friend. People have a little bit of information, a lot of misinformation and a ton of gaps in between. You are outside of her/their realm of experience (at least for now).


She is roommates with 3 gay men and all of them are baffled with me. Im straight, but love to wear womens clothing. None of them have ever heard of such a thing.

Traveling in the circles they do, they just had not run into someone like you before. A bit of Birds of a Feather perhaps.


They certainly arent against it, but she is always asking me questions about what I like, gender preference, etc. She loves it and wants me to go to PRIDE with her in downtown later this year. I highly doubt I will be able to and am not entirely sure its appropriate anyways since I am in fact married.

That's a tricky subject...


I still like that I am accepted by her and her friends, but I sort of feel like a lab rat lol.

I can see how this feels odd to you as I assume it is sort of outside of your realm of experience also. However, this is a great opportunity for all to understand what's happening for folks in other parts of the community. After all, it is LGBT, or to paint a broader picture, we are all somewhere under the umbrella of sexual minorities. There aren't many situations where one can learn and educate simultaneously. SOunds like a really cool situation to me...

[whowhatwhen]

What is this obsession with "I am NOT gay" being the same as gay-hating? Especially if someone says that to factually correct a misconception that many have that CDers are gay. In another thread (or two, I think) Reine stated that she did not hold hands in public when her SO in en femme beause she did not want to be seen as a lesbian. I have no problem with this - saying or doing something so people won't think a person is gay if they aren't and choose not to be thought of as gay.

Because (NOT GAY) is quite often used with a tone of "NO! I'M NOT ONE OF THEM" as if being gay or even being perceived as being gay is an insult or affront to them.
I'm not saying that's the case in every instance but it certainly raises eyebrows when people are so quick to distance themselves.

Even here, of all places on the internet homophobia and transphobia exist.
Hell, just look on the 1st page where someone just had to mention how gay people are undeserving of the oh so sacred institution of marriage.
Hell, we've had people here defend the bloody Family Research Council so you can see why some of us are a bit iffy when someone goes to lengths to mention just how straight they are.

[flatlander_48]

Those of us in the LGBT community (and I'm throwing the blanket over ALL of us here) as just as good at Compartmentalized Thinking as anyone else.

Definition of COMPARTMENTALIZATION

: isolation or splitting off of part of the personality or mind with lack of communication and consistency between the parts

There is a good illustration of this principle at http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_UwFXgtgd7qY/S82wPK02WMI/AAAAAAAAATA/j0M8AEfU3X8/s1600/

[PaulaQ]

Because (NOT GAY) is quite often used with a tone of "NO! I'M NOT ONE OF THEM" as if being gay or even being perceived as being gay is an insult or affront to them.
I'm not saying that's the case in every instance but it certainly raises eyebrows when people are so quick to distance themselves.


The irony, of course, is that if the same person were actually saying "I'm gay", they'd find, in all likelihood, much greater social acceptance than saying "I'm a CD / TG". So ironic. Gay people can get married in some states. We CD/TG folks have to potentially show our birth certificates to go to the restroom in other states. We aren't quite on the bottom rung of the social ladder - we don't have to register before we move in someplace, at least.

[whowhatwhen]

My homophobia is very small and smells of prawns (NOT GAY!).