How did they cope with this in the old days?

[Marleena]

I was thinking about this the other day. They say TS people have been around since the beginning of humanity, how the heck did they manage before treatments became available? I mean if you told your doctor I could see electroshock therapy, lobotomy, or mental institutions in your future, or all of the above. I think it would be fascinating to find a diary of a TS person that had to deal with it years ago.

I think telling anybody could dangerous. Any thoughts?

[STACY B]

You already know ,,, Just think what you did before you came out ? An that's what they did ,,,, Why do you think there were so many Drunks ?

[Marleena]

Oh yeah I guess that would work Stacy!lol. You might have just killed my thread though.:heehee:

[Annaliese]

The last 15 years and the internet has made a big difference, oh there was the talk show, but they showed the outer boundaries of CDing and TS and when I saw those show, I would say that not me. There are a lot of sits out there but only a few that reflect more of what I am this sit is one of those sits.

[Annie M]

Sorry I just stomped all over your post so I deleted it and started another. I think about myself back 30+ years and how I hid everything from everyone for fear some part of it would show. Sorry no diary though wouldn't want any evidence some one like my ex could use against me.

[Marleena]

Sorry I just stomped all over your post so I started another.

No worries Annie, it looks we could have some fun with this one. A little bit of humor is always a good thing.:)

[Lisa Gerrie]

I think about that too, Marleena. Unfortunately it's not just the old days. I feel lucky to live in a time and in a place -- North America -- where things are at least changing. Being outed can be deeply embarrassing but it's not usually fatal here.

There are still many millions of us hiding in dark closets around the planet.

[melissaK]

How did we cope in the old days? You talking about my childhood? Are you calling me old? Are you TALKING TO ME!!?? THEY CALL ME MRS. OLD!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82LORcxD1eA ;^)

Arlene Lev in her book "Transgender Emergence" has a decent section of the book devoted to the history of TSism through time and its treatment in other cultures in the world, collecting what limited historical information there is. I don't recall anything as cool as a diary. (IMHO Lev's book should be required reading if you think you are TS.)

A lot of cultures had social roles for people we would think of as TS nowadays. They wouldn't be tribal or community leaders, but they were given a space and respected to some degree. India still has this social role in its hijras or Aravanis groups. Its goofy from our Judeo-Christian western POV, but they are easy to read up on.

And there is evidence castration has also been used for millennia for various reasons, and possibly to provide relief from TSism . . . . There's a great wiki page on the history of castration . . . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castration

The ones with the more obscure history are F t M's, no doubt because they are fewer in number.

[arbon]

There is a book I liked called The First Man-Made Man - early transsexuals, I thought was interesting.

[I Am Paula]

Suicide was, and still is all to common among TS.

[Persephone]

I did a lot of research in my youth, constantly visiting obscure libraries with deep dimly-lit basements to search through dust-covered volumes of old books, magazines, and newspapers.

Two items stand out in my mind. One was from a U. S. newspaper, probably in the early to mid 1800's. The article was about a local CD/TG/TS who openly wore dresses around town. The tone of the article was rather accepting, merely suggesting that he was just a bit excentric rather than weird, strange, or crazy. It indicated that his wife was accepting of his clothing choices.

The other was a reference that I really wish I could find again. It stated that one of our previous Presidents (and alas, I can't remember which one), from the early 1900's/late 1800's was a crossdresser. I never did find any second source to corroborate the information, but since we have had 44 different Presidents the odds aren't bad that we've already had a crossdressing one.

As to FtM's, history is full of women who emulated men. There were women pirates as well as women who fought in wars, etc. For example, it is thought that over 400 women served in military positions, including direct combat, on both sides of the War Between the States (1861-1865). Most went back to the roles and clothes of women after the conflict, but some did not, chosing to continue to live masculine lives.

We certainly see ourselves as having the best opportunities to date, but someday, if culture and medical techniques continue to evolve in their present manner, there will be CD/TG/TS's who will look back and wonder how we ever survived.

Hugs,
Persephone.

[KellyJameson]

Many Ancient cultures did not view gender as binary and I think this reduced the pressure of gender dysphoria.

Much of the pain of gender dysphoria is not being able to live genuinely.

Also the severity of the experience was probably not nearly as great because in all likelihood endocrine disrupters introduced into the world since the 1930's through synthetic use of hormones such as Diethylstilbestrol or the off gasing or leeching of plastics such as Bisphenol A into the food and environment is taking that which was a variance in nature and making it the norm in the modern age but in a much more pronounced and extreme variation.

Think of it as causing a more extreme split between brain and body so the psychological trauma is much greater in the modern age than in the past due to the affects of man made chemicals

You can track the growth of chemicals with the explosion of transsexualism since the 1950's.

Think of the gender binary as being both organic and social so it is both fixed and fluid.

A transsexual is organically grown in that the brain is not aligned with the body so this is physically created by the sexually dysmorphic stuctures of the brain remaining female while the body does change creating a dichtomy between brain and body.

The body and brain during fetal development literally go in opposite directions.

I strongly suspect what we are seeing is unique to our time as an expression of "severity"

You can look at the world wide falling sperm counts and that every single human being on the planet has on average over one hundred man made chemicals in their bodies.

This is epigentically changing all life on the planet, not just people.

All sorts of life is being reversed from male into female, frogs, fish, alligators, ect..

Gender identity is something you adopt by recognizing yourself in others so you apply the labels you are taught to yourself based on how you experience yourself and others.

The brain and body are changed for reproductive purposes so the differences between the female and male brain serve evolutionary purposes based on reproduction.

There are evolutionary reasons males typically have better spatial capabilities than females versus higher empathetic awareness of females over males.

All this is created to serve the continuation of the species through reproduction , care and raising of offspring.

Imagine a brain that stays female while the body changes or a brain that is changed from female into male while the body does not follow.

xx and xy chromosomes do not decide gender, hormones and epigentics do and the creations of science and its applications have completely changed the soup that we are born into.

I suspect this is just the tip of the iceburg and we will literally see an explosion of transsexualism in the coming years along with many other effects of chemicals such as Autism.

Science has taken what nature did naturally and turned it up in the extreme.

Science has taken the natural gender binary of nature and made it physically fixed by creating an extreme split between body and brain.

There were transsexuals created by nature as natural variations but we are something new in my opinion and this newness causes much more suffering for the individual.

The intensity in my opinion of gender dysphoria is dramatically increased for those living in the modern age because of man made chemicals.

You could say that every "male" or "female" born on the planet is a Des Son or Des Daughter in some fashion created chemically by endocrine disrupters of some sort.

I often wonder if civilization will collapse under the pressure created by these chemical changes to life.

[Lisa Gerrie]

You can track the growth of chemicals with the explosion of transsexualism since the 1950's.

I could also correlate a perceived explosion of transexualism to the ability of modern medicine to make physical transition even possible since the 1950s. Or the advancement of electronic media like television, or the end of the Victorian Era, or the wearing of pants by women...

I don't think we have any way of knowing whether or not transgenderism is on the rise. It's like cancer; is the frequency increasing, or are we simply able to recognize it better?

Added: I have no doubt that chemicals can screw with our bodies and minds, I just don't believe in such sweeping, one-size-fits-all explanations.

[mary something]

I think society was more accepting of people on the gender spectrum than it is currently

[Kathryn Martin]

In the 1950 and early 1960 electroshock therapy was considered therapy for this form of "deviancy".

[arbon]

I think society was more accepting of people on the gender spectrum than it is currently

I don't think society was ever more tolerant then it is now.

[Persephone]

In the 1950 and early 1960 electroshock therapy was considered therapy for this form of "deviancy".

I know that electroshock theraby was used for other conditions, but never read that it was used for CD/TG/TS. I'm curious, can you actually cite cases of this?

Hugs,
Persephone.

[Julie Gaum]

Terms like TS, homosexual, heterosexual and so on were never defined by " doctors" of two hundred or more years ago. In early civilization such as the Greeks what we now call gay and Bi were the norm in many countries while in others it was a death sentence. By the middle ages when doctors were starting the PRACTICE of medicine so-called crazy people included autism, mentally challenged, epilepsy, dementia at any level, every mental instability by any cause, they were all lumped together to be thrown in the lunitic asylums --- read Dickens --- horrible places! Then came removal of parts of brain --- JFK's sister is a more recent example---and shock treatments that were widely used in the 20th Century. The sciences of the mind only started less than 150 years ago. No, tolerance of any type of deviant behavior is very recent so be happy that we are in these last two generations. Keep in mind that teenage girls are still being killed on our planet for trying to bring education to females or deserting their 60 year-old husband. To sum up: There will never be a way to determine whether there were more people wanting to be of the opposite sex or gender in our past history. BTW, eunuchs were originally made by middle-Eastern countries to be servants in the harems --- not for punishment or cure.
Julie

[Persephone]

BTW, eunuchs were originally made by middle-Eastern countries to be servants in the harems --- not for punishment or cure.
Julie

Childhood castration, frequently involuntary, was also practiced in 17th-19th Century Italy and other countries to provide boys/men with beautiful singing voices. Alessandro Moreschi was the last known of the Castrati and the only one who was known to have made any solo recordings. You can listen to a sample here (click here, contains audio) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQo2PNnwOww&feature=player_embedded). Despite the fact that he was around the age of 50 when the recording was made with early 1900's technology it is worth listening all the way to the end to fully appreciate his voice. Moreschi passed away on April 21, 1922, so yesterday was the anniverssary of his death.

Hugs,
Persephone.

[Angela Campbell]

I can tell you how they coped in the early sixties.....they told you to stop being silly, and not to talk about such things. Then someone beat you up a few times and you learned to hide it from everyone.

[noeleena]

Hi.

In 1947 unless you had external organs that showed, or nothing would be seen so you were ether male or female, no intersexed, not that word , if you were different you were operated on you had no say, if you were older say 10 on youd be carted off to the nut house shocked into a no mind no know any thing or druged up.

so you keeped your mouth shut, you lived with how you were, got on with life knowing you were different though some knew of my difference i did not know that till 5 years ago .acceptance was not a given you were weird, not wonted an outcast, though a few sane people were very accepting, as for many Dr;s of the time sod them they cause more issue's problems hurt & death, because many of us could not live with what those b.......s did to us,

Not a good time to be born, i can not prove any thing about myself because of a mind blank or mind shut down for the first 7 years of my life, why i was in the hospital a lot...... my mind did wake up after age 10, so there you are & i know another intersexed woman , a hell of a life as well. took 60 odd years to have some surgery that should have been done 50 years ago. because she is intersexed she was a reject,

...noeleena...

[Marleena]

Thanks for the replies!

As I wrote this thread I thought about that movie and what could happen if a TS person outed themselves way back when.

[kimdl93]

Depends upon the culture. Western cultures have apparently been less accepting, at least in recent centuries, but we also know that there are abundant jokes and stereotypes of transgendered people, so they were around, doing their thing, and noticed. I suspect that was the key...just to keep on putting one foot ahead of another. Remember that until the advent of HRT, SRS the transgendered person knew they had no other choice. Call it resignation or accepting ones reality... Just as a person of an earlier era might have endures life with a cleft palate, a club foot or other 'abnormality' with no hope of a remedy.

[pickles]

Like others have said, a lot of other cultures werent so big on the gender binary so mtfs could find a place in them. The problem is, until recently in a lot of other cultures too, women were seen as inferior, so you were *lucky* to be born a man since you had rights and women didn't.

[Persephone]

Depends upon the culture. Western cultures have apparently been less accepting, at least in recent centuries.

I wouldn't be so quicl to condemn "western cultures." It was Americans and Europeans that first developed the use of HRT and western surgeons who first performed SRS. So in many ways the western culture that you have been taught to devalue has led the world in transgender and transsexual acceptance.

There are a lot of myths out there that idealize some primitive and historical cultures, a bit of John Dryden's long obsolete "Noble Savage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_savage)" of 1672.

Which culture do you feel you would prefer to live in? And how would it be better?

Hugs,
Persephone.

[Badtranny]

I can tell you how they coped in the early sixties.....they told you to stop being silly, and not to talk about such things. Then someone beat you up a few times and you learned to hide it from everyone.

Hmmmm, that sounds very similar to how they coped in the late '70s. ;-)

[Cheryl Ann Owens]

Hmmmm, I remember sitting with a counselor and my ex wife around 1983 who was going to refer me to another who could "shock" me out of my CD and TS feelings. I remember going and seeing the apparatus I could take home to use. This has awakened some awful and fearful thoughts and paranoia with me that led me to a severe breakdown. Those were the dark ages. I'm glad today is today!

Cheryl Ann

[Nikki A.]

One thing to consider, before computers, social security #s and our electronic society, one could merely move and become someone else if they so inclined and noone would be wiser. If good enough, noone would even know until you died. I've seen some pretty rough looking women in some early photos lol.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I recall that my laundry list of excuses to not transition was this very question...i was quite melodramatic about it...

I asked..

How can it be that I needed GRS to be "complete" and all the folks before me didnt??? I wondered how they "made it" without transitioning ... if they didnt HAVE to transition, maybe i dont...

My therapist said
a.) that's their problem...focus on your problem
b.) at any point in history, people took advantage of the most modern medical technology at that time... lots of people died of lots of diseases that are easily curable today...nothing can be done about it..

my response was to cross this excuse off my list..

[Jorja]

We didn't cope with it very well. We did the best we could. There was no going to the doctor and asking for HRT. If you did, a trip to the loony bin is what you got. In many places it was still against the law for a man to wear a dress as late as the 1990's. The cost of GRS made it unattainable for most and the technique and skill simply was not there. I transitioned in 1980 and chose to wait until 1990 before having the operation. Even then, I had a revision done to make it more..... real looking.

[Nicole Erin]

I am going to imagine that at one point back then, people may have wanted to look like women or whatever but since there wasn't much info about TG'ism, they probably didn't sit around and obsess about it like modern day TS. Like they wanted to be women but could live without it. Today, even young folks know it is an option and want and need it.
Well like this - humans got by for years without things like cell phones or the web but these days it is out there and people suddenly think they HAVE to have them.
So like say when phones were first common place - People might have THOUGHT "How cool would it be if you could take this thing anywhere without a wire?" but it wasn't possible so they dropped the thought. When it came possible and common, everyone thinks they NEED. Same with tranistion - back then it wasn't possible so they didn't NEED to.

But as things advance, maybe one day they will figure out the "gender" of an unborn baby and alter it's sex accordingly at birth. I mean hell you already have little kids transitioning so who knows what will happen later?

[~Emma D~]

Hmmmm, that sounds very similar to how they coped in the late '70s. ;-)

it was hard time to be a young teenager - i never did cope unfortunately

[Frances]

What does the OP mean by "old days". Lilly Elbe had SRS in 1931. Are we talking about Joan of Arc days? I recommend Leslie Feinberg's book Transgender Warriors for stories about being trans in the old and even older days.