Just because you DID doesn’t mean you ARE

[Frédérique]

Leyna’s ex-CD thread was closed, but… :thinking:


I invite those who are interested in discussing the peripheral issues to start new threads with appropriate titles.

Thanks for the invitation – I’ll do just that! I missed most of the earlier discussion(s), but I’m intrigued by this “peripheral” issue of dabbling in one thing or another, yet being burdened with an unwanted moniker, probably forever…


I'm bothered by the alcoholism/CD comparison that keeps coming up. Not just because it treats CDing like an illness, but b/c it assumes that everyone who has ever gotten sh*tfaced as an alcoholic. I'm sure there a lots of people who have dabbled in CDing who are not "CDers", just as there are lots of folks who drink too much who aren't alcoholics. For some people, yes, this is something you ARE. But for some people, maybe, it's just something you DO. And I desperately want to be in that second group.

This reminds me of something I wrote a while ago, namely that a male who has a homosexual experience isn’t necessarily GAY, and a woman who has a homosexual experience isn’t necessarily a lesbian. It follows that if you get drunk now and then you are not necessarily an alcoholic, if you get depressed now and then you are not necessarily a depressive, and if you, a male, try on some women’s clothing out of curiosity, you are not necessarily a crossdresser…

I think there must be plenty of people who experiment with what as CALLED crossdressing, perhaps even in separate episodes years apart, and they may come here to learn a little about it. You certainly can’t learn anything out in the wilderness of societal correctness, so this place is convenient, as well as chock full of confusing and misleading information. In short, you CAN be just a crossdresser, and not very much of one at that, or you can make crossdressing your style, or lifestyle, and challenge the status quo. You may also believe you are a woman, or you want to be a woman full time, and thus spend your life on both sides of the gender fence, as you wish…

That’s fine, but some people would just like to dress up now and then, according to their own level of interest, squeezed between familial duties and expectations, and not make a big deal out of things. This “position,” if you want to call it that, is just as valid as any other. Just because you dress in women’s clothing now and then does not mean you might want to do it 24/7, or even once in the proverbial Blue Moon. However, if you have ever crossdressed, I guess that somehow makes you a crossdresser…

I think if you come HERE, to discuss crossdressing, you’re a little more than a dabbler, or a hobbyist, and, amongst others who are wondering what it’s all about, you may feel emboldened to try things you would never do on your own. This place can be like a Marie’s Bath, where you may bring yourself up to the “temperature” of your surroundings, perhaps to fit in, perhaps to dream a little cherished dream, or perhaps to think of yourself in a different light. You will meet the good and the bad, the sweet and the tough, and you’ll get a good idea of what you’ve gotten yourself into. The world of MtF crossdressing is very strange, my friend…

Do you think you’re trangendered? No? Well, your “fellow” crossdressers (if you think you’re a CD, that is), will INSIST that your crossdressing is evidence of a transgendered mindset, waiting to break free of whatever gender you were born with, or at least a glimpse of transgendered behavior, as evidenced by your penchant for crossdressing. You may have no issues with your gender identity, but others will insist that you must, otherwise why would you be dressed like that?

But, there is some good news - you can either take it or leave it, and shed your crossdressing episode, thinking of it either as an anomaly, a failed experiment, or a pleasant memory. Really, it’s no big deal, but it’s the nature of crossdressing, as well as all other arenas where the genders get blurred, to upset the apple cart and cause consternation, or worse. It takes effort to crossdress for FUN, in this leaden communal atmosphere, and maintain a healthy, irreverent outlook. I believe that you can crossdress, or do something that others would recognize as crossdressing, and yet not really be a crossdresser in the traditional sense. Now, if you return to the scene of the alleged “crime,” and begin to don your panties as a daily affirmation, then we may have to call you a CD…

I wear a carpenter’s apron on occasion, but I can’t call myself a carpenter. I once wore cowboy boots, but I am definitely NOT a cowboy. I wear kilts, but I am not of Scottish descent. I wear knee socks, but I am not young, nor am I innocent. And, I wear women’s clothing on occasion, probably more than some men might ever think of doing, so I've come to think of myself as a crossdresser. But, I am not transgendered, I don’t wish to become a woman, nor do I “see” myself as a woman. It’s just crossdressing, a back-and-forth voyaging, or a day trip, between two distinct human regions, no big deal. You CAN be an ex-crossdresser. Your secret is safe with me…

Just because you did something once upon a time doesn’t mean you ARE something, OK? :straightface:

PS – Last year I drank a bottle of scotch. It took me three months to drain the bottle. I won’t be buying another bottle anytime soon. I just thought I would mention that…

[Julogden]

Do you think you’re trangendered? No? Well, your “fellow” crossdressers (if you think you’re a CD, that is), will INSIST that your crossdressing is evidence of a transgendered mindset, waiting to break free of whatever gender you were born with, or at least a glimpse of transgendered behavior, as evidenced by your penchant for crossdressing. You may have no issues with your gender identity, but others will insist that you must, otherwise why would you be dressed like that?

The definition of transgendered that I accept and use is that of an umbrella term that does include CD's. One doesn't have to have gender identity issues to fit under the umbrella, according to my understanding of that usage of the transgender term. It includes males who are happy to be men, males who would never even think of themselves as women for a second. A history of dressing as a woman qualifies CD's as transgendered as far as I'm concerned. A male who enjoys wearing women's clothes, false breasts and makeup is transgendered behavior, nothing to do with gender identity, and that's why many people include CD's under the transgender umbrella. :)

Carol

[TGMarla]

No, I'm actually a real crossdresser. It's not a passing fad, or something I simply dabble in. With me, I'll admit, it's a full-blown thing.

[Kate Simmons]

I don't know what the big deal is either Freddy. I totally have fun with it and never did and don't take myself that seriously.:)

[Stephanie47]

I had to drift over to Wilipedia to see what the world is thinking. I think I'll accept its statement that the term "transgender" is in a state of flux. I will agree with its statement and Freddie's statement that not every instance of wearing the clothing of the opposite sex makes you a crossdresser, e.g., Dustin Hoffman playing a woman in Tootsie or a professional drag queen in it solely for the money. Those two examples seem fairly cut and dry.

As I've stated in many postings I do not know what caused me to wear women's clothing. I recently read an article stating boys will play dress up as a princess until they become aware of society's expectations. He can totally abandon playing dress up. So, why would I, as a male having put on my mom's slip for the feel of the nylon, direct me toward cross dressing?

I don't know. I don't know why I am a cross dresser. I know what cross dressing brings me, peace and serenity. Is cross dressing a substitute for getting boozed up or high on illicit drugs? Should I abandon wearing women's clothing for smoking weed, which is now legal in my state? No, I'll stay with wearing women's clothing.

What I object to is a person pushing his or her own definition or analysis of a cross dresser on others. What may be applicable to one person is not applicable for another. I am not a dabbler. However, I am not a transgendered person seeking a path to full womanhood. I wish sometimes there was more identification of the individual's status or reason for wearing women's clothing.

If you are transitioning from manhood to womanhood I can understand much of the advice given to others who may be or contemplating transitioning. However, giving the same advice to a recreational cross dresser may be injurious to their well being in society.

Perhaps that should be a subject of another thread.

[Marleena]

WB Freddy! Since this looks like the are you CD or TG debate again I'll just take the fifth right now and keep my mouth shut. If anybody can give this "stuff" up I salute them.:D

[Emily83]

Far Out! What's with all the lables? Why does anyone have to be anything?
Just be happy & don't judge anyone. Love! ♥♥♥

[Beverley Sims]

Frédérique,
Just because you drank a bottle of Scotch, does not mean you are an alcoholic either.

[Deedee Skyblue]

I think one of the reasons we come here is because the larger world labels us - I know it is for me. It is dismaying to me to see people here labeling each other - haven't we learned our lesson from the way we have been treated?

Deedee

[busker]

that of an umbrella term under the transgender umbrella. :)

Carol

but, if it is NOT raining let's NOT use the umbrella. Let's treat each and every member here as an individual. To each his or her own. Umbrellas are still very wide brushes. There are so many here who just hate "labels" but insist of terms such as umbrella and isn't UMBRELLA the biggest label of all. We aren't fish to be gathered under a cast net. if i say I'm just a crossdresser (and I have size B boobs to prove it), then that is what I am. Umbrella forces me to be in your categorization of who we are--I prefer my own category--a category of 1.

[Leyna]

Actually shed a tear while reading this. Thank you so much. :)

[Julogden]

I think one of the reasons we come here is because the larger world labels us - I know it is for me. It is dismaying to me to see people here labeling each other - haven't we learned our lesson from the way we have been treated?

Deedee
Labels are not inherently bad. In this case, the label is neither a restricting one nor is it a negative one, doesn't harm anyone.

In order to effectively communicate with each other, labels are often needed.

Carol

[Brynna M]

Seems like you're really complaining about the ambiguities of qualitative labels. You can't define "crossdresser" in quantitative terms so we all have our own opinions about who fits into that term. I don't think that someone who crossdressed in the past and no longer has any interest in it can continued to be labeled a crossdresser. However if you do wear women's clothes (even infrequently) and you expect to keep doing so then I think crossdresser is not an inappropriate label.

In the end labels aside, we are what we do. I am a biological male who wears clothes and cosmetics that are traditionally exclusive to biological females in my society. I fully believe I will continue to desire to do so and continue to act on that desire. That is the truth. What ever label someone chooses to assign to that truth is irrelevant to that truth. If someone chooses to believe things about me that are inaccurate because of a label then I can try to correct them but ultimately I can not control what people believe.

Labels are always over simplifications. Worthwhile people will look beyond a label for the truth. Narrow minded people will cling to the label because it is somehow easier.

[Barbara Ella]

Labels can serve a function, but eventually become useless to the individual. By this I am addressing the person who is new to say, perhaps crossdressing, just to keep it local. I got hit directly out of the blue with this 18 months ago, and had exactly zero idea of who, where, what. I needed labels and definitions and descriptions to help me enter into the community and participate in a place where I felt I would be welcome.

Believe me, it didn't take long to realize being welcome was a universal thing. With some time and participation, I easily saw the variety of individuals, and came to realize that labels have no long term use for me.

I also saw that the individuality was a thing to be celebrated, and do believe that the individual can do whatever they truly have the passion to accomplish...anything. And each individual's opinions are just that, and can have no impact on what I choose to do, if I can understand them, but not accept them.

Barbara

[PaulaQ]

The defining characteristic of alcoholism is powerlessness over alcohol. The alcoholic simply can not consistently control his drinking.

I would assert that CD / TG is similar - if you cross dress a few times in your life for a play, or halloween, or for a joke, and never think about it between times, you are not a CD.
If dressing means something significant to you, and you can't consistently go without it, you are a CD - that is you are powerless to stop your feelings about it, and it is a defining characteristic of you to varying degrees.

Fortunately, unlike alcoholism, being a CD isn't a negative thing - the only negative part about it is that people freak out over it because of social conditioning.

Whether or not a CD wants to use the label TG or not I guess is sort of up to them. I personally think that most of us fall somewhere along the TG spectrum - either male identifying with some feminine behaviors to female identifying and transitioning, to something in between the two. But I can appreciate that a male identifying CD wouldn't think of themselves as TG. That's fine by me, since many think "TG" implies that one is a transexual.

BTW, I never really drank scotch, but I am certainly an alcoholic still. Indeed, I was such an alcoholic that on my last day in rehab, as I left, I saw one of the new people coming into the center, and realized that I knew him - it was my regular bartender who was checking himself in. Yep, I was such a bad drunk that I took my bartender down with me... ;)

[KellyJameson]

Crossdressing is an action so something someone does but the label is something external that would not exist if the person did not live in a society.

Labels are always relational so you need two or more people before you need labels.

If you are singular than there are no labels but only you.

If you wish to live freely within your own mind you must find that place that existed before there were labels that you were labelled with or labelled yourself with otherwise you will remain always being defined by others so never become the expression of you but only what others want you to be.

Being labelled or adopting the label of crossdresser may actually hide the reasons for the action because your reasons will be defined by others.

Crossdressing is a voyage whose reasons change over time so the label will separate you from yourself because labels exist in the past but the voyage happens in the now.

Labels prevent metamorphosis by interfering with self awareness.

If you wish to be free to grow you must not become trapped by words.

[busker]

If dressing means something significant to you, and you can't consistently go without it, you are a CD - that is you are powerless to stop your feelings about it, and it is a defining characteristic of you to varying degrees.

)

Paula, that could easily be the definition of compulsive behaviour. People who shop til' they drop are often compulsive in their behaviours and doing anything "to death" equally so. there could also be some psychological problems involved. Where is need to rush into anything?. You are who you are (as they say) so what is the hurry? The fact that some folks seem desperate to dress says more that they are feeling feminine. I like m usic but I don't rush around telling everybody. If people know me, soon enough it will be evident that I like music. There is a pink data fog on this forum that suggests compulsive behaviour. small samples to prop up already determined conclusions. For example, someone will say "I have lots of female friends" and that makes me more feminine (but the sample is 1 and no study of all the men who are not cds to see how many female friends they have).
It can sometimes be difficult--for the specific person-- to determine enthusiasm from compulsion.

[PaulaQ]

Paula, that could easily be the definition of compulsive behaviour. People who shop til' they drop are often compulsive in their behaviours and doing anything "to death" equally so.

My opinion is that this is a form of compulsive behavior. I think the reasons for it are likely different than compulsive shopping or compulsive drinking or drug abuse - but the end result is the same. IT has you, and not the other way around. Why else would we be drawn to do something that is still so socially stigmatized? There are easier hobbies... (My belief is that most of us express, to some extent, some portion of our identity through cross dressing. Perhaps it is only a small part - that's fine. Perhaps it is the greater part or the entirety of our identity. Also fine.)

In the absence of other people, this is really one of the least harmful compulsive behaviors I can imagine, though.

I know, at least in my case, this is certainly a compulsive behavior. I'm not dressed right now, and I feel like hammered crap because of it.

[Lisa Jeffreys]

I'm not dressed right now, and I feel like hammered crap because of it.

Wow I haven't heard that expression since I was in college. Actually the only time I ever heard that expression was when I was in college in Atlanta.

Lisa

[Lucy_Bella]

I wear a carpenter’s apron on occasion, but I can’t call myself a carpenter. I once wore cowboy boots, but I am definitely NOT a cowboy.[/COLOR] Were those cowboy boots female cut? Was that apron pink? True clothing is just that..Clothing ! So some members like to get their kicks wearing clothing known for the opposite sex..It still makes them a cross dresser maybe not a TG because of the reason one choices to wear the clothing .. That's not so hard to understand and we are not all Doctors with degrees in physiology to place judgment ..I know why I dress and I don't judge the reasons why others choose to..I also know that my dressing started as far back as I can remember..

For some reason Ivan the bridge builder story comes to mind... You know he was world famous for all the bridges he built, or was he?.. I'll leave the story at that.. Society would mistake those of us who wear cowboy boots as us trying to be cowboys. Just as they would wearing a carpenters apron people would think you could build a house..If your not a cowboy why ya wearing those boots? If your not a carpenter why do you have the Apron on? Simple answer..Because I like wearing them and I can doesn't mean I want to be one does it?..

[Deedee Skyblue]

The problem with labels is that people expect everyone in the same box to act the same way, to think the same way, to feel the same way. I wouldn't be here if I acted the same as everyone else who might have certain similarities to me. Most of us wouldn't.

Deedee

[Wildaboutheels]

I'll never understand how and why some folks can be so "concerned" about labels for Humans. ALL other animals on the planet are [unless born and bred in zoos] likely to be raised in pretty much the same fashion.

Humans are ALL so unique because of the possible millions of combinations of Nature/Nurture. Which makes trying to label them an exercise in futility. I have no problem in that some people desperately want or need them but I tend to think that is because they have SELF DOUBTS about themselves and being able to grab onto a label and use it to describe themselves might be a bit of self preservation or self delusion.

I could care less what anyone chooses to call me or refer to me to my face or behind my back. THE ONLY thing that matters is how they interact with me. I have zero control over how people think or what they will say to others. I know from working with hundreds of people over the past forty years that EVERYONE is fair game.

Just as soon as they leave the room.

The ONLY time a label matters [IMO] is on a Dating site, where one is required to check all those little boxes IF one is on there actually looking to find a partner and not just there to type endless messages back and forth. SOP for Dating sites if one allows it.

[drushin703]

frederique:

Yes, this is a strange world, perhaps the only one on earth you can't just walk in and speek and act in inefective
generalities. This is the most honest and truthful post you have ever submitted. But I wonder, how long do you
have to do a thing before it becomes "what you do". I'm a crossdresser because I was born to be one. Now mind you,
there is no sheepskin on the wall in a lovely wooden frame declaring me as such. There is no such Hippocratic oath
that embodies my code of crossdressing ethics. I do it because I have learned to love it. And, yes, it makes love to me.
And when I don't do it, it calls me in the night and begs me to come back.

I have a carpenters apron in the garage, along with the hammers and I think some nails, i'll have to check. But if I
was a carpenter it is only because I learned to be one. Some things in life, crossdressing being one of them, is
just progressive generalized involvement. You can't teach it.
You can't tell it.

[Leyna]

But if I was a carpenter it is only because I learned to be one. Some things in life, crossdressing being one of them, is
just progressive generalized involvement. You can't teach it.
You can't tell it.

That wasn't my experience. Yes, I did some "dress up" as a kid, trying on my mom's or my sisters' things b/c II liked the feel of them. But it wasn't until I hit my 40s that I really got into crossdressing. And it actually started as a bit of research for a character I was writing. I was trying to learn how what a crossdresser would do and how a crossdresser would think so I could write a story. But then...I ended up liking it. It sucked me in. So I think it's definitely something you can learn.

[Cheryl H]

This topic keeps coming up and is the problem with "definitions". If we were to ask 1000 people who have "cross-dressed" we would get 1000 answers and I doubt anyone would agree 100%. The same with being transgender. For myself, I consider my self transgender, but not transsexual. I have no desire to alter my body with hormones or surgery, but I have a mindset that is in the middle of male and female. I enjoy expressing both halves of the spectrum. I can understand why some may feel that being a cross-dresser makes you a transgender and others feel that only cross-dressing does not. So it's a mater of personal opinion and what you feel comfortable doing. Regardless of how we see ourselves and what we are comfortable with, I think it's more important to respect and support each other as we all come to terms with what it the right path for each of us.

[busker]

Why else would we be drawn to do something that is still so socially stigmatized?
I know, at least in my case, this is certainly a compulsive behavior. I'm not dressed right now, and I feel like hammered crap because of it.

I am not certain of anything, but my best guess is that we are drawn to this both for biological reasons and psychological reasons. That society stigmatizes it is entirely a different problem based on religious beliefs and a lot of other stuff. If this were isolated to the USA, northeast corner, 1 county in Maine, I 'd say it was just a local happenin' . However, cross dressers appear across time, in every country in the world and in every age group and likely (?) in both sexes. That suggests to me that along the way, some switch got turned on that didn't match the genetics exactly ( the human genome is about 3 gigabytes of compressed data if I remember correctly), lots of things can "go wrong" and so when we're born we have this thing that is dormant that might, at some point when initialized, lead us to crossdress or be more feminine or whatever. when puberty strikes the hormones kick in and for some with the "glitch" the hormones get us interested in women's clothes. Some have mentioned masturbation in connection with wearing panties at this age but I suspect it is just a coincidence (because they have the glitch, otherwise all kids would be wearing panties at this age) since we are also becoming aware of our sexuality at that point. I also think that psychology can rear it's ugly at this point regarding parents and relationships at home, especially for males--otherwise this would be common among females, and it doesn't appear to be. That is another topic which we as a basically all male forum have neglected to investigate.
There is help for compulsions and recognizing that certain things are compulsions is the first step. Just my opinion.

[Tracii G]

Oh No not again.

[busker]

I think this is a question that Senator McCarthy wanted to ask J Edgar Hoover: Are you now or have you ever been a member of the Cross Dressers Party?
350 writers actors and directors were forever tainted by a single question.
I sometimes wonder whether they would have been better to say YES, and move on and later recant than to get branded anyway. Maybe we should all just say yes, we are TG and let it go at that. I know what I am, who cares what any any one else thinks I am. Only my hairdresser knows for sure.

[Cheryl Ann Owens]

Analysis is paralysis. Just be who you feel you are at any given time.

Right now I must be a woman in a male body if I'm wearing my feminine night clothes.

I gave up trying to put any label on myself. One size does not fit all. The label making process can be a futile attempt to find an identity so that one could reassure themselves to say, "Okay, that is what I am." My label only says, "Me!"

Cheryl

[Julogden]

The problem with labels is that people expect everyone in the same box to act the same way, to think the same way, to feel the same way. I wouldn't be here if I acted the same as everyone else who might have certain similarities to me. Most of us wouldn't.

Deedee
Depends on the label.

"American" is a label, yet we Americans don't bristle at that, and only someone who is totally ignorant of Americans would expect all Americans to behave, think and feel the same way. ;)

Carol

[Kelly DeWinter]

.............. namely that a male who has a homosexual experience isn’t necessarily GAY, and a woman who has a homosexual experience isn’t necessarily a lesbian. It follows that if you get drunk now and then you are not necessarily an alcoholic, if you get depressed now and then you are not necessarily a depressive, and if you, a male, try on some women’s clothing out of curiosity, you are not necessarily a crossdresser…..........

The problem with statements like this is that no matter what someone else says, you won't agree or consider the reality.

The reality is that yes at that moment you are what you do , if you choose not to continue it as a life style that is another matter. If you do something occassionally , then it means you are an amature .

Most people do not like labels, but like others have stated, it part of the function of language and preferences.

[Jenniferathome]

Leyna’s ex-CD thread was closed, but… :thinking:...This reminds me of something I wrote a while ago, namely that a male who has a homosexual experience isn’t necessarily GAY...

and he's not necessarily straight either.

[VeronicaMoonlit]

But, I am not transgendered, I don’t wish to become a woman, nor do I “see” myself as a woman.


However, I am not a transgendered person seeking a path to full womanhood.

I am reminded of a quote from the film, "The Princess Bride" said by Mandy Patinkin's character of Inigo Montoya: "You keep using that word...I do not think it means what you think it means."

You both seem to be misinterpreting the meaning of the word transgender and seem to be under the mistaken impression that it's the same as "transsexual" which is the word you both should have used in your statements. When people on this board use the word transgender they don't mean transsexual, they mean transgender, the umbrella term for all of us.

Let me ask a few general devils-advocate questions:

1. If you're not transgendered, why use a female username and/or on these boards?

2. If one is not transgendered why would one intentionally use a feminine appearing typeface and/or use exaggeratedly feminine phrasings?

3. And why, when talking about one's crossdressing as a youth describe certain feelings which are obviously gender dysphoria.

They used to use a term in the DSM to describe crossdressing, GIDAANTT. Gender Identity Disorder of Adolescence or Adulthood Non Transsexual Type. It's not called just GID and will be replaced by a more generalized "Gender Dysphoria" in DSM V.

If one is not transgendered why refer constantly to "effeminacy" or "femininity"...because THAT refers to gender.

In my opinion, transfolks in general aren't like dogs and cats (which are both members of Order: Carnivora) but more like Dogs and Wolves, slightly different manifestations of the same underlying thing...just differing in degree, frequency and intensity. (In case you don't know...dogs are domesticated breeds of wolves...same species and everything)


I wish sometimes there was more identification of the individual's status or reason for wearing women's clothing.

Which is why lots of us say to use "More" words and to driectly say what we mean by them.


Far Out! What's with all the lables? Why does anyone have to be anything?

Because Label's are a useful tool in communication. For example, you are an Anglophone...meaning one who speaks English...but that doesn't make you the same as someone who lives in England...though you both might speak the English language. You are an Anglophone: Australian: whatever regional-local dialect you have, and I am an Anglophone: American: Midwestern Dialect: Central Illinois variant etc etc.

Words are tools and we need to use MORE of them so that we are on the same page when we discuss things.

Veronica

[Marleena]

Oh No not again.

Apparently yes! I opted out this time.:)

[Cheryl Ann Owens]

and he's not necessarily straight either.

And what difference would it make? I don't care what anyone would label me if it made THEM feel better unless somehow it drained my bank account and I lost my wife and my home. I was fully dressed having a fling with a straight guy and I loved every part of the experience as a woman. Would I do it again? Probably. Who needs to prove they are straight while we are all here mostly living in gender roles that are opposite to our anatomical physique and the associated role?

Cheryl

[Lorileah]

Oh No not again.


Apparently yes! I opted out this time.:)

and it took less than a day.:doh: If we cannot agree on one definition, these threads become nothing more than chest thumping :brolleyes:

Maybe someday certain people will lose the cattle prod they use to goad other's oxen

[noeleena]

Hi,

Oh dear,

Well there is one detail Fredirique,

i would say applys to myself i can wear the pinny though its not pink its gray yet you know what , i can wear it with pride because i trained as an apprentce to become a carpenter, ( builder, ) so yeap that one sticks like glue. & on one job, i ...was ...called Wendy the builder, so i thought that was pretty good, it allso reflected who i am . & that was from a young lad who will proberly never work , i got him doing a few things so there you are,

...noeleena...

[Leyna]

and it took less than a day.:doh: If we cannot agree on one definition, these threads become nothing more than chest thumping :brolleyes:

Maybe someday certain people will lose the cattle prod they use to goad other's oxen

Seriously? And from a moderator? Pardon me, but as long as it stays on topic and people are respectful, what do you care? But instead, you join in with the people criticizing the topic? I wonder, do you go in every bra thread and say "oh no, not this again!"

Perhaps you might want to reexamine who is doing the goading here.

BTW, posting in a topic to say you aren't going to post in a topic seems pretty passive-aggressive to me. Also ridiculous.

[stefan37]

There are many reasons why ohers have posted here we go again, Lorileah's comment but I will not go into detail and derail the thread. Personally I could care less what anybody calls themselves or even how they want to categorize me. What is important is we look deep into our motivations for what we do and then own them. You want to xdress and give yourself a female name, and tell us how great that makes you to feel as a woman, yet that revelation to your spouse will destruct your marriage so you deny it, then do what you have to. But then do not whine and complain how unfair life is and how society is unforgiving. For the record and so everyone understands where I come from. My wife knew of my crossdressing 3 years before our marriage and we have been married 30 years. It took me 27 of those to admit to myself I was a crossdresser because it helped me to forget I might be transsexual. I was able to mitigate my dysphoria for a long time and it finally reached critical mass.

I took action to relieve my anxiety and started to transition. This is where it gets real. My marriage I have known it is over. My daughter wants at this time nothing to do with me and wishes not to be seen with me. My wife laments she wants her crossdressing husband back and God I wish I could just be a xdresser, but I need more. It is an inner urge and those that participate in this activity know exactly what I am talking about. You want to deny your own existence to coexist with someone you are in love with so be it. I advocate disclosure in all cases and I disclosed to the 3 woman I thought could get serious the 3rd being my present wife. I never got the where do you hide your stash, what color are your nail or panty threads as i was able to have my own stuff in plain sight throughout my marriage. I also never denigrated those that felt they had to hide themselves or their things from their wives, girlfriends or family. What ever you are take responsibility and own it.

Those are my thoughts on this whole I can give it up because I am not a crossdresser train of thought. You are what you are whether you admit to yourself or not, wherever you land on the spectrum.

And Leyna seriously good luck on quitting this if you can. You would be a much stronger person than I.

[linda allen]

.......a male who has a homosexual experience isn’t necessarily GAY, ...............

If people find out about it, he will carry that label a long, long time. It's not fair because it's not true, but it's reality.

Personally, I agree with you, he is not gay, she is not a lesbian and the person who drinks too much once in a while is not an alcoholic. Society though, often looks at it as a way for people to feel better about themselves by putting others beneath them.

It's a shame.

[mona lisa]

Well said Frédérique!!! :)

[sometimes_miss]

My opinion is that this is a form of compulsive behavior.
The problem with that concept is, crossdressing does not respond to treatment for compulsive disorders. So there's another mechanism in place here.
That said, this reminds me of the old joke.
An old man sits sobbing on a bench. Someone comes by, stops, and asks him what’s wrong.

He replies, “I’m a multimillionaire; I’ve built a successful multinational corporation; I’ve built bridges, hospitals, schools, and churches through my riches.”

But do they call me Luigi the successful businessman? No. Do they call me Luigi the bridge-builder? No. Do they call me Luigi the philanthropist? No.

None of those things matter. Why? Once, long ago, when I was young, I sucked a c*ck. Just one, once. And ever since then, when I walk by, people say, ‘There goes Luigi the c*cksucker!’

So for some things, one occurance is enough to convince the rest of the world that's how you should be defined. Sort of, I guess, like being a murderer. It only takes once.......

[Frédérique]

No, I'm actually a real crossdresser. It's not a passing fad, or something I simply dabble in. With me, I'll admit, it's a full-blown thing.

It’s not a passing fad for me, either, but nor would I call myself a “full-blown” crossdresser. I look up to people like you for inspiration, Marla, but my situation is entirely different…


Since this looks like the are you CD or TG debate again I'll just take the fifth right now and keep my mouth shut. I opted out this time.

It’s NOT a CD vs. TG debate. This is about how some people crossdress, M to F, yet they have no desire to become crossdressers in an overriding sense. In mentioning the transgendered community, or whatever it wishes to call itself, I’m merely pointing out the overall “bent” of this site. It's a fact. Someone who crossdresses, and gets enjoyment out of it, perhaps for a brief time, may look up crossdressing on the ‘Net. They will probably come here, because it usually pops up first in most browsers, only to find that THEIR idea of crossdressing isn’t being discussed…

Not only that, but the hobbyist or dabbler crossdresser gets no sympathy, or respect, from those who really should know better, even though there are a few exceptions. This is unfortunate, because the site is called crossdressers.com, and the title implies that ALL types of crossdressers are welcome. The truth is that there is an accepted “standard” of CD around here, if you read between the lines on any given day, and no quarter is given for anyone who either doesn’t fit that standard, or has no wish to achieve that standard. Feel free to disagree with me, but when someone comes on this site with high hopes or healthy curiosity, only to leave with a bad taste in his/her mouth, it really bothers me…

I signed up for this site way back in 2006, but I only began posting in 2009 – that’s three years spent lurking, wondering how I can insert a comment, edge-wise (no less) into this thorny “If you’re not BEING a woman 24/7 out in the real world, don’t bother US” mentality…
:sad:


Actually shed a tear while reading this. Thank you so much.

You’re welcome. SOME of us are sympathetic, you know…:)


This topic keeps coming up and is the problem with "definitions". If we were to ask 1000 people who have "cross-dressed" we would get 1000 answers and I doubt anyone would agree 100%. The same with being transgender.

That’s true, but this thread is not about definitions or labels. It’s about injustice…


If we cannot agree on one definition, these threads become nothing more than chest thumping. Maybe someday certain people will lose the cattle prod they use to goad other's oxen.

I assure you I cannot thump my chest, because my fake breasts keep getting in the way… :heehee:

BTW, would you like me to show you all the bruises I have received, both mental and emotional, from the alleged “prodders” on this site? I’m positively black and blue – mainly blue, of course, due in no small part to snide comments like the one quoted above…
:straightface:

[Lucy_Bella]

Frédérique

Funny you brought that up( not ha ha funny either)..I wasn't a lurker, I was fresh into a separation from a 25 year relationship with my Ex,I jumped right in this site..Only to find disappointment as far as the support goes,later it was drilled into me that this site wasn't a support for those of us who were in the closet.

After being chased out of here several times ( one was a lifetime) I had to change my non female name to what it is now ( I didn't have to I found it best to ) ..I took a different approach to this site and I do not comment on threads that I have no interest in, IE painted my nails ,got a new dress ,had a make over... I understood that this site is a support site but not for those who deny they dress but for those who love feeling Fem .. I don't I still think it's a curse and I wish I was never born to do this yet I still come here and scan past the girly threads seeking some sort knowledge to aide my hobby at the expense of others who buy into most of this fantasy lifestyle..

[Marleena]

Freddy seriously you did bring up the TG thing again. I quote:

"Do you think you’re trangendered? No? Well, your “fellow” crossdressers (if you think you’re a CD, that is), will INSIST that your crossdressing is evidence of a transgendered mindset, waiting to break free of whatever gender you were born with, or at least a glimpse of transgendered behavior, as evidenced by your penchant for crossdressing. You may have no issues with your gender identity, but others will insist that you must, otherwise why would you be dressed like that?"


It's a reoccurring theme and that's why I didn't comment. I don't give a rat's a** what anybody calls themselves anymore...It's not worth arguing over..

*edit* Freddy I think I would have left out that paragraph before somebody picked up on it IMO.:D

[Lorileah]

This thread did take it into the TG arena. Here is the sticky. http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?162497-Some-Common-Trans-Related-Definitions. If we are discussing things that we want others to have a similar perspective on, then we need to use words we can all have the same perspective on. Using definitions that you make verses those that the majority follows makes things difficult.

Addendum: If the theme of this thread is NOT TG related it will be closed. Read the FAQs

[jayme357]

My goodness! I have never made a bottle of single malt last more than a week to ten days!

[EmilyPith]

I have found this thread to be very interesting and informative.

If it is a rehash for you, consider that for some people who are finally getting the nerve to read and learn are seeing this for the first time. People don't realize that what is normal for you can scare the crap out of a lot of people. I stayed scared in the shadows for most of my life.

Reading this forum is different than reading books and published papers on this subject, it’s raw, and I think a much better source of the real struggles and emotions faced.

And so I don’t stray too far, labels are important to me, I need to have names for things.

I am a Naturalist according to Howard Garnder, an ENFJ according to Myers-Briggs, a big geek according to my wife, and the dreaded T in the LBGT by my own decree.

Labels also help me to know what I am not.

Personally, this whole part of me has been very hard to come to terms with... it almost took me down three years ago, and reading about similar struggles helps... a lot.

Please don’t stop.

[stefan37]

Freddy getting back to your original post I am not quite sure what you are trying to imply. You wrote this in response to a member that wants to quit crossdressing and because she does not want to admit it does not make it not so. You are correct those that crossdress once or twice for a play, Halloween, etc are not necessarily crossdressers. But your post was in reference to a member that wants to quit because her wife gave an ultimatum and the marriage is more important than the dressing. Her signature alone sends a message that the crossdressing is more than the feel and look of the clothes. We have members that crossdress and have no tg inclinations as they wear beards, hairy legs and are comfortable with clothes of the opposite gender without feeling they are feminine. I personally do not care what or how you want to label yourself, those that do have this condition and can quit and live a distressed free life. More power to them. But reading posts from many members here and meeting others in person, the dressing is a part of them and although they can stop for a while, at some point it will become unbearable and the urge will be stronger than before. Hence the term pink fog and it can be quite debilitating and cause many relationship issues that could have been avoided with moderate expression to maintain balance.

My experience is the more you can reach a healthy balance between the two the more manageable it becomes and your relationship will also be much healthier. That is assuming your spouse, gf or partner knows at least knows. Those so deep in the closet their SO do not know are not a place i would like to be and their mitigation can be out of their control and disastrous.

[PaulaQ]

The problem with that concept is, crossdressing does not respond to treatment for compulsive disorders. So there's another mechanism in place here.


I didn't mean to imply that crossdressing / TG were the same as compulsive disorders, not in any way shape, nor form. I was merely making the point that the behavior, for many of us, seems to be compulsive, in that we can't stop these feelings very easily. That it was "like" a compulsive disorder in that a cross dresser has trouble stopping cross dressing, in much the same way an alcoholic can't really control their drinking. The underlying mechanisms and root cause are almost certainly totally different, and I don't want to imply that being CD / TG is any sort of disease.

To some extent, I don't really care how you classify TG / CD, disease or not - it doesn't really make any difference because there isn't any type of treatment for it that stops it. All current treatments are aimed at helping the CD / TG person accept their condition, live with it, and hopefully, lead a better life with it.

[sometimes_miss]

To some extent, I don't really care how you classify TG / CD, disease or not - it doesn't really make any difference because there isn't any type of treatment for it that stops it.
Uh, no. That's the belief of all those who simply accept that 'they're born that way'. Which isn't always true. My own case is proof that you can 'create a crossdresser' out of a normal child. Without discovering why I had developed the desire to crossdress, it would have of course been much easier on my part to just accept 'that I was born this way' and also was a latent homosexual and just move on in life, never understanding why the pieces never quite fit together.


All current treatments are aimed at helping the CD / TG person accept their condition, live with it, and hopefully, lead a better life with it.
Uh, again, no. But also, again, that's what a lot of people like to believe, because it's simple and easier to deal with. It's one of the great failings of supportive forums like this one; while trying to make us feel better about ourselves, it tends to often ignore finding the real (possibly not what we want to know) reasons for our behavior. It all comes from the assumption that all crossdressers do so for the exact same reason. Which is obviously wrong.
I don't consider crossdressing to be a disease OR a disorder. It's simply a variation of behavior, and enough of us do it (about one of every 40 males) that it's pretty common, even though no male dominated society would never admit to that.

[Frédérique]

Freddy seriously you did bring up the TG thing again.

I can assure you that I READ everything I write before I submit it, sometimes five or six times, so there is no need to point out what I’ve written, OK? :doh:

In light of past “problems,” I am making a concerted effort NOT to bring up the TG “thing.” The thread that inspired this particular thread was initiated by a crossdresser, and I happen to be CD, not TG, but I don’t wish to bore anyone, especially you. Let me ask you this – if someone crossdresses, and then successfully stops, for whatever reason, and never crossdresses again, case closed, is that person still a crossdresser? I won’t bring up the TG thing, in this context, because it simply doesn’t apply here…


This thread did take it into the TG arena. If we are discussing things that we want others to have a similar perspective on, then we need to use words we can all have the same perspective on. Using definitions that you make verses those that the majority follows makes things difficult.
Addendum: If the theme of this thread is NOT TG related it will be closed.

I think I’ll respond to this revealing post via a PM… :straightface:


Freddy getting back to your original post I am not quite sure what you are trying to imply. You wrote this in response to a member that wants to quit crossdressing and because she does not want to admit it does not make it not so. You are correct those that crossdress once or twice for a play, Halloween, etc are not necessarily crossdressers. But your post was in reference to a member that wants to quit because her wife gave an ultimatum and the marriage is more important than the dressing. Her signature alone sends a message that the crossdressing is more than the feel and look of the clothes.

I’m just trying to generate some discussion about a peripheral issue contained in Leyna’s thread, and it has to do with personal “levels of commitment” for the crossdresser. Obviously, to some of us, there are things more important than crossdressing, and this is a good topic for discussion, I feel. Yes, I do FEEL. In my case, an unforgettable “thing” occurs when I dress, but it is just one of many memorable things that I have experienced, or continue to experience. Sensations rule my existence, but, for me at least, crossdressing is not the be all and end all of my existence...

I can tuck crossdressing away, no pun intended, and cherish the moments I have collected over time. I would say that I am a crossdresser, but if someone asked me to explain myself with one description, or one label, I would not choose that word. I am an artist, first and foremost, which is a nice way of saying I’m a hedonist – I live to pleasure the senses, period, and, believe it or not, I’ve met others like me ON THIS SITE...

From now on, I think I’ll take Julie Gaum’s advice:


Oh well, laugh, be happy.

Thanks, Julie... :clap:

[Marleena]

Freddy I surrender (or give up).:) I was simply pointing things out that brought me (and others) to the conclusion it's a replay of the TG issue. I'm truly sorry if some Cders are being felt left out of a CD forum. Just remember the word transvestite has fallen out of favor and was replaced with crossdresser and perhaps transgender is the new "in style" word. Just ignore me now so I don't derail your thread.:D

[NicoleScott]

Just remember the word transvestite has fallen out of favor and was replaced with crossdresser and perhaps transgender is the new "in style" word. Just ignore me now so I don't derail your thread.

Marleena, I agree with what you are saying but don't think the new style word is very helpful. Replacing CD with TG is like replacing oak with tree. The sticky definition doesn't help much because it's so broad. But it should be broad - it covers much under the umbrella. Saying you are TG says less aboout you than saying you are CD, as tree is less desciptive than oak.
Veronica suggested we need MORE words, and I agree. My observations are that there are crossdressers who have strong internal feminine identities and want to dress to match that identity, but they feel they are more than CD but less than TS. Maybe it's attempting to distance themselves from those CDers who dress for sexual excitement. Whatever the reason, there seems to be category (label, box, compartment, etc.) of "more than CD, less than TS" folks who want a word to define themselves, and they have chosen " transgender". Trouble is, that word is taken, and it means ..blah blah UMBRELLA....
Until we use the same definition for TG (and other words), the debate goes on and good thread discussions get sidetracked by label arguments.

[Leyna]

I swear, the way you all argue about labels and having to define everything into boxes we all agree on, you'd think this was a bunch of guys hanging out here...

[Tamara Croft]

When mods get sick of modding a thread, time for me to step in... and close it... end of.