Compromises to save a mariage

[Lynnmorgan451]

The love of my life and I have been at each others throats pretty much since she found out I was transsexual. On and off, good days and bad days, then really bad days where I spend way to much time on the internet looking for rooms to rent. Finally, we compromise. Here it is...from now and through the end of August, no leg or arm pit shaving. I get one night every two weeks to shave my face and wear makeup, get as girly as I can with monkey legs, whatever...I can wear pantyhose...ugghh......I have to get therapy, which is fine. I was planning that anyway cuz I need it (I'm crazy) and we are going to marriage counseling. Oh and shes making me have sideburns and a silly mustache for the times between shaving. :-/ Also I am no longer allowed to communicate with people on the internet without supervision.

I think I can do this. I mean, at least for the summer and if I can get through it without getting too depressed, who knows. I feel like I'm free falling through the sky right now. Like I'm in a dream and I just appeared in the sky already falling. I'm not sure if my parachute works and I'm not really even sure if I have one. I just know that at a certain point I'm going to have to pull the cord, pray to God and hope I do it before I splat on the ground.

I think about other peoples problems and I even took care of some people in the hospital who have legs and feet amputated from being morbidly obese and diabetic and I think about what issues they deal with. When I compare them to mine it just seems silly. I don't have cancer or any autoimmune diseases. I'm not starving to death in Ethiopia. I'm not in prison or a mental institution. I'm not disabled in any way shape or form except for the notion that my body isn't female, its male. Oh my friggin God why is this such an issue to me?

I ask myself this question, too...If the "world as we know it" ended and we were survivors hunting, gathering, trying to stay alive. Maybe zombies attacking, maybe just other starving people attacking...whatever the case may be..Where do I fit in? Am I really going to take the time to shave my legs or face?? Would I still even think about doing this with the goal of transition so far out of reach? Will there be any surgeons to fix my body? What about estrogen? OMG where the hell am I going to get hormones!? Will I seek out pregnant horses just to drink their urine and make this a priority over feeding my family? lol.....ok I get carried away...But anyway, its not the end of the world. Its just the end of smooth legs, and only for a while...I can do this...This is retarded....I can do this...other people go through worse every day....these are my mantras...I can do this...Because I love my wife.

xxxooo

[suzy1]

You love your wife and that’s great but…………….

You are no longer allowed to communicate with people on the internet without supervision?
You have to have a moustache?
You get one night every two weeks to dress?

What does that tell you about your marriage!

Sorry but this just seems wrong to me but if it works for you then good.

[Sandra]

I'm sorry but your wife cannot rule your life like this.

I am married to Nigella who is also TS and it is who she is, and your wife needs to understand this about you. All these rules she has put in place are just going to cause a lot of heartache for both of you.

[celeste26]

Sorry but this just seems wrong to me but if it works for you then good.

How is it possible to work for anyone? That is not a description of a marriage but a prison camp. All the rules made by one side and nothing on the other (?)

I see divorce soon.

[Lynnmorgan451]

This doesn't work for me!! Not at all..It is laughable that I have to have sideburns and a mustache!! But I love her and I will do this for her. Hopefully this will be to prove a point. I want her to think I look goofy now if I have facial hair, and I want her to see how sad its going to make me but that I'm willing to be hairy and smell bad all summer to satisfy her. This is my life and I live for my kids and her and I have to be a father no matter what, and I need to be a husband because I said I would when I put the ring on her. I really think that if I go through with this it will strengthen our relationship, or, it wont be good enough, more rules will follow and yes, then divorce is inevitable. But for now, a means to a means??




I see divorce soon.


dooooonnnnnnt say that :(

[JohnH]

Wow, your wife is really making you tow the line. Hmm - if I read it correctly, your wife does not even allow you to shave your face everyday. If I were in your shoes I think I would shave myself as I see fit - daily shaving of the face and periodic shaving of legs and armpits.

And I also see your wife will not allow you on the internet without supervision.

I would say your marriage is beyond saving - that is just my opinion. I don't see how your marriage is going to endure. Maybe counselling might save the marriage but it appears to me that your wife is not willing to work with you at all. I have seen in on this website before where the wife make unreasonable demands but the separation occurs anyway and the husband transitions to being a woman.

The only conditions my wife wants me to observe is to keep my masculine speaking voice and name, and dress sort of like a man (denim skirts are allowed) when I am with her while having a femme haircut and lipstick. And around the house I frequently wear dresses, even to the point where I take out the trash.

I am on M2F HRT. No, you do not need to take Premarin (derived from mare's urine). There are alternatives.

Take care,

John

[Linda St. John]

What the hell Lynn.....you call that love ??.....Suzi, Sandra & Celeste all have it right !!! Nothing to add !!:eek::sad:
Linda

[SabrinaDubh]

Also I am no longer allowed...

That right there would have me calling the lawyers.

[ReineD]

Suzy brings up an interesting point ... if you were a crossdresser your wife would be cruel indeed to be so severe with her boundaries. But, honestly I don't blame her for not wanting to be in a relationship with another woman if she is not lesbian. At any rate, I'm the SO of someone who is not TS and I suppose she could be classified under the crossdresser label, although s/he does identify dualgender and she goes out as much as she wants to. It's not about the frequency so much, like once per 2 weeks vs. 4 times per week (when he gets busy with work sometimes she'll go several weeks without putting on her feminine clothes. Her choice, obviously. It's more about the feeling that there are no restrictions when it comes to expressing herself. None. Ever. I think that if she felt constrained she would go crazy as well and she may well want to chuck the guy self altogether.

But, this is not about crossdressing, is it. It is about telling your wife that you are a woman, you want to take hormones to change physically and emotionally (don't discount this) to a woman, chemically. And then you'll want to remove all your body hair, grow breasts and have SRS, since you are transsexual. Transsexuals cannot go half way and be happy. If they can, then they are not level 5 or 6 TS (see the Benjamin scale), and they are rather bigender (or dualgender) like my SO. And yes, having sexual reassignment surgery and even growing breasts would surely mean divorce. There is no bandaid over the summer that will fix this.

BTW, I hate the term "crossdressing" for someone like my SO. She is most definitely not crossdressing when she wears her feminine clothes. She is expressing one of several facets of herself. And the term "transgender" means everyone under the umbrella to many people, and so it won't do either. Oh well.

I wish you all the best, Lynn. I sincerely hope it all works out for you, not only to preserve your marriage, but to be happy while doing it.

[suzy1]

Anyone that puts their children’s welfare first is O.K. with me Lynn.
I totally understand that!

Unfortunately the best for your children could ultimately mean divorce.
But only you know your situation.

All the best,

Suzy.

[Megan Thomas]

This doesn't work for me!! Not at all..It is laughable that I have to have sideburns and a mustache!! But I love her and I will do this for her.

Hi. You clearly do love her but the question you need to ask yourself is does she love you?

If she did she wouldn't be doing this to you. She'd be supporting you and doing what she can to make you happy. Putting conditions on your life is not how you go about making someone happy. Are you happy? We know the answer to that one...

Being transsexual is one of the hardest things to deal with and it needs not just courage by those afflicted but also a lot of compassion and understanding by those close to us. I hope your wife will come to realise this and change her attitude. In the meantime only you know how best to handle this and I wish you well.

[Stephanie47]

Rather than jumping on the bandwagon and agreeing with the others about being in a prison camp, I went back and read your postings. You and your wife need to terminate your marriage. I see no hope in ever being able to live together and being happy. You listed all the stresses in your marriage. You have three kids under age five. You're dead broke. You inform your wife you're a transsexual wanting to transition. You indicate your wife is/was expecting normalcy. In one post you came home and after being stressed out texting with your wife, you head off with a lesbian friend in semi femme to buy clothing? In another there's an argument about cyber sex? It goes on an on.

I suspect your wife is also totally stressed out. She has the same issues about finance and raising kids. On the flip sides she is sitting there stressed out because her husband wants to transition to a woman. All these restrictions she wants to impose on you are her attempt, however futile, to understand what's going on and save her marriage. Does she understand a person's desire to transition? I would venture to say she is totally confused. She does not know how to proceed. There's always two sides to the story. Your post is only conveying one side of the story. Maybe counseling will help. I suspect it will not. Once she understands who you are and who she is, she'll be better able to make rational choices. Don't stay together for the sake of the children. They will survive better than living in a home full of marital disharmony.

There's always two sides of the story.

[TeresaL]

My situation was very similar when I joined this website. I really did try to keep those rules, thinking that what her experts say may have merit, and maybe this is a dirty, sinful addiction. I was in GD misery. Our condition is complex, and isn't all fun and games -- we can't help it. We also can not change ourselves and our brain wiring because there is nothing wrong with us, and we've done nothing wrong.

Some how, your wife doesn't understand that If it really is love, then you can let the person go free, and they will come back, with no harm done. My freedom only came when I made a stand and declared that my TG life was is here to stay. If my wife wanted to stay, then fine. If she wouldn't let me be who I am, then leave. It took twenty years for me to make that commitment, and it is one of the best things I've ever done. Oh how I wish I would have done it sooner.

Although I never considered divorce was an option, I could no longer live with the mind control and domineering pressure. If you can, then have at it. It not, then make a stand for your life. If you have any dysphoria at all, it will gnaw at you until it eventually eats you up.

[Michelle.M]

I'm sorry but your wife cannot rule your life like this.

I couldn't have said it better.

I don't know why you used the word "compromise". Irrespective of gender issues, she's making all the rules and you're complying. There's no compromise in that scenario.

And you already know how this will end. Doing what she wants delays that, and it's understandable that you'd want that delay (you're no doubt scared of a likely divorce). But eventually something's gotta give.

[mikiSJ]

Also I am no longer allowed to communicate with people on the internet without supervision.

Are you also becoming 4 years old without telling yourself?

Something more than admitting you are a transsexual is at work here. Your wife may be the love of your life, but you are giving up your life to a dominance, not a love - figure this one out really fast or the boy and the girl in you is going to be lost.

[Dawn cd]

Wait a minute! Give Lynn a break. She said she has agreed to do this just until the end of August. After that the whole thing can be renegotiated. It doesn't seem to me that four months it a big deal if it shows consideration for an SO. Lynn said she LOVES her spouse. Let's give love a chance.

[Lynnmorgan451]

My wife and I have a very sordid past. And yes! There are always two sides to the story and it seems as if I am making all the sacrifices and I'm not. My word usage may have been a little vague and emotionally charged as well.. When I say " I'm no longer allowed to communicate on the Internet to people" I meant chat rooms...like these posts do not count as direct communication and she understands the value of my having a forum to vent. She just doesn't want me in a ts chat room flirting with people unless she's there with me. Understandable. I don't usually go into a chat room unless I'm pissed or miserable and just need to yell randomly and NEVER for cyber sex lol....but I'm cool with it.
And this is only for the summer......ill tell you, this wont be the first summer that I've had hairy legs n armpits, but it will definitely be the last. I think she knows this, too, and the "compromise" at this point I believe will help her deal with me in the future....I truly believe she loves me and she is desperately trying to keep her life together making these rules, and they didn't all come from her....I came up front with the leg shaving, because I know it bothers her tremendously that I do it....but if I'm willing to do this for her, I think it'll make her appreciate my love and, I guess, I really think it'll help her deal with the transition....I can do this.....for love!!! Ggggggrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!! I can do this!!!

[KellyJameson]

Your wife has an unhealthy amount of power and control over you and in my opinion is abusing it.

Gender dysphoria can interfere with solving the basic problems of life that lead to personal autonomy.

It takes all of ones energy and focus and turns it inward but for survival life requires the opposite response.

Gender dysphoria can be a direct threat to survival because it stops you from being motivated to learn how to take care of yourself so you form unhealthy dependancies on others.

Gender dysphoria steals your will to live and the more power you give away to others the less you have for yourself.

In my opinion intimate relationships can be dangerous in the face of gender dysphoria because you are more vulnerable to abuse by others, particularly intimates but anybody you need for survival from the boss at work to the wife at home.

Transsexuality is not a disease but it can and does cripple you psychologically making other people in your life potentially dangerous because you will not have the same ability to psychologically defend yourself that a cisgender will have.

Think of yourself as wounded and others are taking advantage of this much how a thief steals from a blind person.

In my opinion it is vital to understand that you cannot afford to compromise in relationships concerning your gender dysphoria and identity because the circumstances of your birth and childhood have already forced a compromise on you that you should never have been forced to accept and that compromise is your body "as gender" not being you.

Gender dysphoria places you in a dangerous paradox where you need people more because you are in a weakened state but this very need is what weakens you further by forcing you to compromise that which cannot be compromised.

Transitioning is not only physical but learning how to transition out of unhealthy dependancies on others that the gender dysphoria is causing.

In my opinion to survive being transsexual you must learn how to live with a higher degree of person autonomy than cisgenders until you have moved through the gender dysphoria otherwise you become trapped by "Cisgender" needs and expectations.

Your wife is pushing you to be a cisgender which you are not and this will add to the depression of gender dysphoria making you weaker so needing her more so than making it possible for her to push you deeper into depression by the control she has and the demands she makes.

It is not that she is a good or bad person but she is "different" from you and this makes her potentially dangerous. She wants you to be a cisgendered male to complement her cisgendered female. A Yin and Yang mix of opposites but if you are transsexual it will be next to impossible for you to step into the role of cisgendered male because your brain does not work that way.

It will feel completely unnatural and backwards to you and you will try to change her to complement you and she will try to change you to complement her resulting in constant chaos in the relationship.

Cisgenders are not transsexuals and the differences between us and them make them potentially dangerous to us.

In my opinion you have to be extremely careful who you associate with when you are experiencing gender dysphoria because others will make you weaker from the already weakened state you are in by their cisgendered expectations.

In my opinion many of the sucides done by transsexuals come from them forcing themselves or being forced to be what they are not and you slide into a depression that you never come out of.

I would strongly urge you to fight very hard for your life and the right to be who you are and to live as you need to live by becoming emotionally and financially independant which will give you the resources to shape your world to suit you.

Cisgenders increase the trauma of gender dysphoria for the transsexual.

[Jorja]

I don't really feel I can add much to what has already been said. The only thing left to say is, do not make promises you cannot keep.

[DaniG]

Lynn, clearly, you love your wife a great deal. I can relate to this. You want to do whatever it takes to make your marriage work.

While I agree with others that her demands are nothing short of draconian, perhaps it does make sense for you to get by for a time. Don't give up yet. You're getting into therapy. The two of you are getting into counseling together. This will give you both a chance to put some perspective on the situation.

I recommend you do some homework on the marriage counselor and make sure it's someone who has some experience with TS. Don't accept an authority in your marriage who's going to condemn you, tell you you're broken, and to get with the program. You need someone who understands TS and what lies ahead of you. This counselor needs to give your wife a realistic view on what's reasonable. Hopefully, at that point you'll be able to negotiate better terms.

As for the long run, I don't believe that you're necessarily doomed. But you shouldn't accept her terms for the long run.

There are plenty of couples who surive transition. Yes, the odds are against you. Yes, your wife's initial reaction is not a great indicator. However, it's still early. More important is the strength of your relationship. Other than the obvious problem, how are the two of you doing? When the stress comes, do you tend to fight or come together? Does she just want to get out?

If there's any give in her terms, I recommend you get back on the forum for the support you need.

Good luck, Lynn! I feel your pain!

[Barbara Ella]

Lynn, you will have a very difficult 4 months ahead of you. While the conditions are harsh, there does seem to be some reasoning behind them, given past behaviors, even though they are draconian. Your wife's world has been rocked by much much more than merely announcing you like to dress in women's clothing. I think she may recognize a bit of uncertainty or confusion on your part also...you want cybersex and think it is not cheating, you want to become a woman and transition... You may have definite thoughts, but I do not get the feeling that they have been communicated, and this is the reaction. Your wife is confused and devastated, and is reacting, albeit over reacting. She needs some stability in her life right now, and sees this as a means to try and run in place and catch her breath.

If these were permanent, there would be no hope. If only you are to go to therapy, there is no hope. She needs to recognize, that if she loves you, she needs to understand what being transexual really means for you, and why your life is the way it is. If she cannot undertake a deeper understanding, there is no chance for you to survive. Take this time not just to allow you to suffer in silence, but to educate both yourself and your wife so that when August ends you both have a clearer picture of who/what you are, and how the two of you think and fit together.

This is not an easy journey, but it is yours, and you control your destiny in the end. Control it well.

Barbara

[Angela Campbell]

I see this a little from your wifes point of view. When I was married, I found my wife was talking on line to someone from another country. Someone she talked to before we were married. This was very steamy and I found out when it became talking on the phone.She did not know the cell phone bill showed all overseas calls. I was very upset and all trust was gone. It took a long long time (years) for me to reach some level of trust with her again, and to tell the truth the marriage was never the same again.

She doesn't trust you right now and there is good reason why. It is reasonable to stop all contact with others on line although the other things seem a bit of punishment rather than mistrust.

[Kathryn Martin]

Sorry, but I don't believe you are transsexual. I find your post in fact rather misogynist in a number of ways. I wish you all the best with your marriage troubles.

[Aly Cat]

Soo...I am not going to offer any advice because I am in the same place as you!! I do not identify as being transsexual...just a crossdresser who loves womens clothing. It is however a major part of who I am. My wife gave me an ultimatum about 3 weeks ago now I guess that pretty much said...continue and get out, stay and stop, or do it and know that every time you do, it really hurts me. I can't intentionally hurt anyone regardless of who they are so that gave me two choices.
Like you, I have stayed for the kids. Its the toughest thing ive ever had to do, not crossdressing. It is so ingrained in me. I had to give up my wardrobe to her and let everything go. I'm scraping by for the time being until I can get counselling for myself and marriage counselling. On the path I am on now, I foresee disaster but its what I had to agree on to keep some peace for if nothing else just a little while longer.

So yes, I totally understand the position you are in completely and sympathize with you 100%. Hang in there gurl well make it...one way or another.

[AllieSF]

I think that I understand where you are coming from and where you hope that this hopefully temporary compromise will get both of you. I would put less faith in the monkey look and your increased moments of frustration when it becomes too much to follow those rules which you have agreed to. I would put a lot of time in finding a very good and qualified gender therapist and more faith in his/her ability to get both of you on the right track that lets you progress toward where you need to be and who you are. If she can better understand what all this really means to you, maybe she will be better able to come to terms with it, and if not, be better able to make a mature decision as what to do about her role in the relationship.

If after this period, plus or minus, she still wants to keep in place strict rules for your behavior, then I think what the others' above are saying definitely comes into play. Good luck.

[stefan37]

I highly doubt not shaving your legs will allow her time to accept you. Waffling back and forth will only cause more grief and confusion. It is honorable you are giving up what you say is a major part of you to compromise, however I think you will find it difficult and cause you much pain and discomfort. As Jorja said do not make promises you can not keep. I cannot emphasize that advice enough. If my wife were to give me ultimatums when and how often I could shave or what I could shave, One of us would be on the way out. You can sugarcoat it all you want but control like that is no way to live in a marriage, unless that is the arrangement you desire.

[kimdl93]

The hypotheticals aren't particularly helpful. You live in the world you're in, with the intrinsic needs that you have. I hope that the counseling will help both of you learn to work with the realities of your life, and without placing needlessly hurtful restrictions on your lives.

[Julie Gaum]

Lynn, I want to try to boil down the issues: 1. Most members see your situation is hopeless in the long run but as Dawn commented you agreed to four months so do that so at least you have done your part. 2. If you both see a FULLY QUALIFIED therapist there is a slim possibility that the result will be that your wife will understand that you don't have options - you are what you will always be. More likely
that it will be wasted money but you agreed to it so do it. 3. Financial: you did say that you're broke and we are not aware whether your spouse works but with 3 very young kids, probably not. So in the few months remaining you must try to figure out how to handle a split as the children must be supported. I would guess your spouse is "cutting off her nose to spite her face" when the bread winner leaves the nest
so, without knowing the details, she is obviously going down the wrong path for her future welfare for indeed she is driving you away.
4. Love - a hard word to understand. The posting members have serious doubts that it's mutual no matter what both your pasts revealed. We can't sit at a PC and tell you what is in your heart but carefully consider her recent dominating actions before decision making time at end of August, for as noted above numerous times her actions have been very one-sided and that doesn't spell LOVE. 5. "Staying for kids' sake" has been proved a false reason 99% of the time. Children at an amazingly young age can feel and react to tension and verbal fights - they are worse off, for the experience will taint their life-times. and finally 6. Renegotiate what in September? A compromise that you BOTH can live with? Unless the chosen therapist is a miracle worker - which is possible - there is no compromise on the horizon.
All I can add is "God Bless"
Julie

[Ann Louise]

I see you're 34 years old, and haven't mentioned any children. I also see you're a musician, and to me that implies that you regularly come in contact with lots of people, probably progressive people your age and younger. It's a big world, and, IMHO, Why Be So Needy? Marriage is a legal contract, not a one-sided psychological suicide pact. What kind of life would you have with such a person? Head out young girl! Go west (or east, or south, or north), but girl-up and Go. Ann L

(BTW, I just completed 18.5 years of child support payments on two kids, so I've literally put my money where my mouth is)

[TeresaCD]

Hi Lynn. I'm sure you can do this, for a time, because she is that important to you.
And hopefully, in time, you will both be able to find a more workable long term solution.
It's good to do everything you can to make things work, 'because you said you would'

[mary something]

shouldn't you mention that your wife found out that you told a woman that you would "absolutely" find time to cybersex her later? Honey I would have offered her that facebook password before she had the chance to tell you no adult supervision. You need to think about why you want her to treat you like a child, what are you getting out of it? Does being punished make you feel less guilty? It's gonna destroy any respect your wife and children have for you if this becomes a cyclical thing. What is causing you to act out occasionally? Is it intense gd that you aren't managing? Honey you need to make sure you know what you want and what you need because I'm afraid it's about to get "real" very soon if you don't get a handle on this. If you're trying to transition then remember you need all the credibility you can muster right now, unless you're deliberately setting yourself up to fail (that is what trying to show her that your miserable to change her mind is in my opinion, and it's not a good plan honey it's just gonna convince her that you are miserable, nothing more or less). When a miserable person tries to convince me of something I don't listen to them, who does?

The good news is that if you're wanting to transition the fact that you guys have 3 kids that are 5 years old or younger means that there is a very good chance that another woman around the house could be very useful. You are in an excellent situation to show your wife how nice it could be to have.... a wife.

[I Am Paula]

I'm sorry, I've never been so abrupt, even rude, on the internet, and rarely in person. Run...run.... run... get away from this relationship (?) as fast as possible. She is completely controlling, and your 'compromise' is completely lopsided in her favor. Unless your 'thing' is submission, and humiliation, she's got you by the short and curlies, and is poking you with a fork simultaniously. Get that apartment, don't tell her where it is, and get on with your right to the pursute of happiness.

[jillleanne]

There are two ways in which we live; happy and unhappy. We must individually decide which road to take and live with the repercussions. Adaptation forms an intregal part of every decision. We can accept and appreciate others' feeling, but we cannot truly share in them. Conversely, they cannot truly share ours. We are individuals living individual lives that share only portions of ourselves with others. The parts we do not share are the key to our individual happiness. Life is taken far too serious on planet Earth. Yours, like mine, will only last a very short time. Take advantage of it while you can. There are no second tries at getting it right.

[JohnH]

At the very least your wife should let you shave daily with no moustache or sideburns. That is standard procedure for at least 50 percent of men. And you can see there are cis-gendered males with shaved legs.

John

[melissaK]

Jeepers Lynn Sweetie. It'll take you a month of Sundays to get through all this advice and opinion. And some of it seems spot on.

Lynn, my :2c: is CHILL and DO THE COUNSELLING. :)

[RADER]

Lynn:
My wife had a few boundaries with me, but nothing like you have.
My wife was OK with my dressing, however, I did not leave the closet.
I am wondering what is next for you??????
Do you need written permission to go to the Bath Room?
Rader

[PaulaQ]

Here it is...from now and through the end of August, no leg or arm pit shaving. I get one night every two weeks to shave my face and wear makeup, get as girly as I can with monkey legs, whatever...I can wear pantyhose...ugghh......I have to get therapy, which is fine. I was planning that anyway cuz I need it (I'm crazy) and we are going to marriage counseling. Oh and shes making me have sideburns and a silly mustache for the times between shaving. :-/ Also I am no longer allowed to communicate with people on the internet without supervision.

Lynn, your wife's attempts to control the situation by controlling your body will not change one thing, and will not give her control over this. This is something you are both powerless to stop, in all likelihood, I am sorry to tell you. A mustache will not make you suddenly decide "holy f***, I f***ing LOVE being a DUDE!"

There are any number of terrible things that happen to people in this life. It is natural to go "What can I do to stop this?" Sometimes though, the answer is simply "nothing."


I think about other peoples problems and I even took care of some people in the hospital who have legs and feet amputated from being morbidly obese and diabetic and I think about what issues they deal with. When I compare them to mine it just seems silly. ... I'm not disabled in any way shape or form except for the notion that my body isn't female, its male. Oh my friggin God why is this such an issue to me?

I'll give you my perspective as a handicapped person. I was born with an affliction that affects 1 in 100,000 people. I was lucky, in that it only affects my legs. (Usually the arms go too.) I've endured terrible physical pain throughout my life because of this condition. I grew up in an orthopedic ward of a children's hospital. I was surrounded by just unimaginable suffering - this was the era of thalidomide babies. Gave me nightmares for years. And you know what? That stuff is no big deal to me compared to what I'm going through with my gender identity right now.

Do not trivialize what you are going through. This shit is bad.

[ReineD]

Hi. You clearly do love her but the question you need to ask yourself is does she love you?

If she did she wouldn't be doing this to you. She'd be supporting you and doing what she can to make you happy. Putting conditions on your life is not how you go about making someone happy.

But, Lynn's wife did not sign up to be in a relationship with someone who is a woman. Can she be blamed for this? If, however, Lynn were to eventually determine that she does not want to alter her body or she is not working towards altering her body, and she is indeed satisfied with expressing her feminine self while also maintaining her male self, then Lynn's wife might be more willing to learn how to work with this? I know that the concept of gender duality is difficult to master since none of us physically see bigendered individuals around us (we either see just men or women) but for many people, coming to terms with this is just the answer rather than telling a wife they are "transsexual". What does "transsexual" mean, really, other than wanting - or more than wanting ... going ahead with electrolysis, hormones, FFS, & SRS?

Can Lynn's wife be blamed for not wanting to be in a relationship with another woman? Not every GG can come to terms with this. If, however, Lynn is prepared to take concrete steps towards transition beginning with telling her parents, her friends, people at work, and living full time as a woman first (RLE), then what does "transsexual" mean, really?

I agree with Kathryn Martin. It's not about what you say, but what you do or fully intend to do and following through with it.

Edit

Good Lord ... I haven't read Lynn's other posts, but I see references in this thread about facebook, other women, cyber sex, etc. Lynn, I hope that you and your wife are doing more than talking summarily about this and I hope that you also will take some time to think deeply about what you want to do. But first you do need to have concrete RLE experience to put it all in perspective. The need to express femininity can become so powerful to someone who is constrained, as to blur the lines between identifying transwoman vs. bigender.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Reine i think i'd push back on "What does "transsexual" mean, really, other than wanting - or more than wanting ... going ahead with electrolysis, hormones, FFS, & SRS?"
What it means is that if you want to live a life that is true to your nature, that feels authentic to you , you have do just that... a gender fluid person can do this in many ways, a ts person cannot..

Generally speaking you can't EVER get affirmation of who you are unless you become who you are...for many of us this becomes a life threatening situation.. this is an immutable conflict in a marraige... that's why gender queer people can often recommend trying to compromise ...it works fine for them and its just an ongoing negotiation for femme/homme time... ts people can try this too, but it will become less and less satisfactory for you over time...

also, generally speaking, ts husbands underestimate the impact they have on the marriage, even though they are trying to stick it out.. in life it is very difficult to put yourself in the other persons mind..i don't think we can easily internalize just how difficult this can be on your wife, including her feelings of loss, betrayal and confusion...she can never know again with certainty where she stands no matter how much you want her too, and no matter how much you believe you will live up to your promises...in the worst situations, we make promises and over time and can't keep them, sometimes YEARS later...in effect, betraying her again...talk is cheap...promises to not dress/express/pluck/wear/notshave are cheaper

[melissaK]

An elaboration on Kaitlyn's comments . . . indeed saving a marriage is neigh impossible for anyone who didn't start the marriage with full disclosure of B, T or Q inclinations. Changing these sex roles and sexual presentation roles shakes anyone's foundational views of sex, gender, and morals. And even if you view the person's changes in views as enlightening and positive, it makes them a different person in many ways. And so the marriage is tasked with two people growing and evolving in a profound way - together. Any mismatch on theses views will lead to a profound incompatibility. Keeping the relationship is a partnership effort.

And to steal the thread away from Lynn for a minute, I want to use my life to illustrate this. I know my semantics are weak on this, but I knew my marriage as it was, was over. All I could do is work for a new relationship. It's not all about my wife having to learn about me, it's also about me having to learn about her.

She parked herself comfortably in the role of middle class mom, and for her to step away from that, requires she have her own inner strength and courage. Watching her search for it I see she has to deal with her own insecurities that she never dealt with because she used being a busy over scheduled mom as a distraction, much like I used being a workaholic over scheduled dad to avoid dealing with my TS issues. We were both living this over scheduled life, for the much the same reasons. So we talk, as openly and as non-judgmentally as we can. We try to take care of each other in the process.

I'm not optimistic about us, but we haven't quit yet, and anything is possible . . .

[ReineD]

What it means is that if you want to live a life that is true to your nature, that feels authentic to you , you have do just that... a gender fluid person can do this in many ways, a ts person cannot..

That was my point, really. :) Being true to one's nature means going ahead with it to one's best ability, and not just "saying" one is TS.

A lot of people in this forum think that if they need to express their feminine selves and if they don't CD just for the fun of it or just for fetish, then it "must" mean they are TS. We all know there are many, many different points along the line, between fetish crossdresser and level V or level VI TS according to the Benjamin scale. And these points are the end result for many people (like my SO who is dualgender - or bigender if you prefer), and not on the way to "becoming" TS.

I did go back and read some of Lynn's past posts and just a few weeks ago she made a reference to her wife giving her grief about "her cding". It's true that we cannot hold someone foerever to past statements, but really, doesn't it seem as if often people join here initially wanting acceptance from their spouses for the unfettered expression of their feminine selves, yet within a short period of time after joining, they determine they are TS when they discover that they are under major constraints at home? And then they post in this section a lot and with great conviction only to disappear after a while when it comes down to actually making the decision to take concrete steps towards transition, more than taking hormones to get a bit of boobage?

Just saying that Lynn needs to ask herself some important questions about how far she is really prepared to go, and not make the decision that she is TS and telling this to her wife until she has been out and about in the mainstream A LOT for at least a year and has gotten over the excitement of it all. Lynn is young and can pass easily, so this should not be a problem.

I go back to my original point. If Lynn's wife is hearing "I'm TS" then this does mean full transition including the disappearance of any male physical characteristic. At any rate, it is a lot more than just shaving or not shaving legs, wearing or not wearing clothes, and wearing or not wearing a beard. And to go back to an earlier question I asked here, if Lynn and her wife are close and Lynn is really a woman, wouldn't Lynn's wife already have a clue, like Sandra did (sorry Sandra for bringing you in, but you and Nigella are the perfect example :p).

I say this specifically for you Lynn, to help you with obtaining more freedom to dress: two things need to happen. Your wife needs to come to terms with the notion of alternate gender first, and she will not go along with it if within a very short period of time after joining this forum she hears from you that you want to transition (what does this mean, really ... surely it means a lot more than dressing, shaving, and getting breasts). You need to slow down a little with your definitions until you have been out and about in real life a lot and for at least a year. And THEN you can both see where you're at.

And to use Sandra and Nigella's example again, Nigella and Sandra dealt with this for years together before getting where they're at now.

I'm not saying that you are or aren't TS. I'm saying that given your past recent posts and your outlook on the whole thing, you may need to compare your definition of "TS" to Kate's, Kathryn's, Misty's, Rianna's and others who have fully or have completed substantial steps to being on their way to fully transitioning. With a legal name change.

[Lynnmorgan451]

I just wanted to pipe in and say that I'm still reading all of your responses. I really appreciate everyone's input and will give responses and updates soon. I can't tell you how much I appreciate everyone's time and advice.
Xxoo

[elizabethamy]

We all know there are many, many different points along the line, between fetish crossdresser and level V or level VI TS according to the Benjamin scale.

Totally true, O wise one (Reine sort of hates it when we call her that...)...but in the end, unless you are part of some special subculture and/or are very young, in this modern world you can play for the boy team or the girl team, no matter what point you occupy along that line. How to pick a team and not look back, if you're not sure you're clearly on either end of that line? I know many don't believe in the "line" or continuum but I do, and I think the reason it's not often visible is that everyone picks a team, or in fact, plays on the team to which they were born (genetically).

The suffering over that choice is at least half the reason for the thousands of threads and posts in the TS forum and elsewhere on this site. I think once people "pick" a team, or decide to acknowledge that they would be better off on the transitioned team, then it makes perfect sense to no longer believe in the line (continuum). And that's okay. So many times a day I long for the certainty that my friends on here feel -- and to keep my friends and family and job intact. (And for a lottery win and a pony and a unicorn, too.)

No one can tell you who you are, Lynn. It's the people who love you the most who won't want you to take a terrible risk. Just try to understand, and be at peace with yourself...

elizabethamy

[LeaP]

You have it backwards, EA. It is the realization that brings one to consider transition, not the other way around.

[ReineD]

Lea, what you say is true for some people. But, some of the others have a different definition of TS than you do. They believe perhaps that transition means doing everything except legally transitioning to full time and getting SRS. Or, they start out that way but then they decide it isn't for them when the possibility of losing everything to end up living less than an ideal woman's life hits them hard.

Someone said something that I think is very wise in the CD section a while back. S/he said that we can consider several types of transition. There is the traditional transition we speak of here in the TS section, which is the full physical including FFS & SRS together with legal name change (Type V or VI TS). But, there is also a transition for people who don't want to go that far so that they can still be who they are meant to be, which is somewhere in the middle if they cannot see themselves divorcing their wives, losing their jobs, and having their penises removed. This is what my SO did. And in the process she has determined that she is not a guy nor is she a full time female. And she is OK with it.

Neither of these examples are male, obviously. But there is a difference between living a permanently full-time transitioned female life, and one that is part time or partial and not fully female. Both are valid and both are true but the mistake is when both want to call themselves the same thing. This causes a great deal of confusion (and disagreement), not only in this section among the different factions, but with loved ones who for the most part, believe that the word "transition" means basically getting rid of a penis and living full time as a woman even at work.

Is this what Lynn wants, and has she determined this after having spent a considerable amount of time as herself out and about doing regular things, several times per week for at least a year until all the newness has worn off?

Edit - If someone comes in here and says they have been out and about for years in the mainstream and they know they want to live full time, they are prepared to transition at work, they want the whole shabang including the legal name change and they've told all their friends and family, and they are prepared to live with the consequences of possibly losing some relationships, I will not be suggesting to them the same thing that I suggest to Lynn, who was all excited last month over just going to Walmart dressed.

Doesn't anyone else see it this way or am I just weird? :p

[Badtranny]

Doesn't anyone else see it this way or am I just weird? :p

No. Your instincts are right on as usual. Lynn is just the latest in a string of people who insist they are TS but haven't done anything about it. Somewhere along the way, the actual transition has become devalued to the point that some believe that it isn't even necessary for a TS. Apparently you can be a closeted cross-dresser with a pantie fetish and still demand to be recognized as a transsexual woman. Who knew?

That's why I started referring to girls like me as 'TransitionerS' a while back.

[ReineD]

That's why I started referring to girls like me as 'TransitionerS' a while back.

Good one, Misty! Put some color in it and it will be more obvious. TransitionerS :)

The trouble is, how to convince someone that just taking hormones with no intention of doing anything else is not transitioning?

[Rogina B]

The trouble is, how to convince someone that just taking hormones with no intention of doing anything else is not transitioning?
It is all fun and games till the boobies start to sprout!

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Not every TS woman transitions...most gender confused people that don't transition are not TS ...

almost every time there is a discussion about the gender continuim it gets all mixed up and backwards....lots of people are bi gendered...its a real thing, but it makes no more sense to a ts person than it does to a cisgendered person...neither of us are bi-gendered... its outside of our experience...and we know this because we lived it...everyone else knows this because by our actions we go to superhuman lengths to achieve our best available authentic lives...and because its obvious to everyone how difficult transition is some people "Try on" every possible gender role before actually transitioning..they finally transition when they hit the wall

we might speculate that for some people they are really really close to the wall... if the continium is a given...is 97.3% woman enough to transition?? 90?? 80?? 99.9?? who the heck knows....and we never will and that's why i say (and i'm often critiqued for it) that the gender continuim has no value to the transsexual community...and i'd argue it can hurt us because many people claim transsexuality and don't transition...we that transition say we MUST ...

lynn may be ts or not...in day to day life she can do much more to learn about who she is...it really complicates things in a relationship tho...

Its very difficult to discover who you are when your partner already thinks they know who you are..

[Angela Campbell]

I can understand how someone can say they are TS but are not going to transition. It is fear. Fear to do what they want to do (or need to do but they refuse to admit it). You can spend years denying, finding excuses of why you cannot and convince yourself why the reasons are valid. Pulling the trigger is hard and the courage is hard to find. Making a decision that changes not only your life but all around you, and cannot be undone should be a hard decision to make. It makes them no less TS but it can make it hard to know if you are really TS. If you are you know it. You may deny it but you know it in the deepest part of your soul.

Transitioning is an action taken by a very brave transexual. A transexual is what you are not what you do.

[stefan37]

I sometimes wonder where I fit in this whole mess. I may be able to live a bi-gendered life. But I know how hard it would be to do so. Living in the middle would be very difficult and confusing to those I interact with daily. I believe for me the best solution is to transition fully and then let the chips fall where they will. At least for me I will no longer have to hide and in the end it will be less confusing to those I come into contact with. I do not care what or how people want to characterized me. I am living my life the way I think is best for me and for me it is authentic. Lynn will have to find her own way. Having a spouse certainly complicates things. Actually for my wife and I navigating a new way to relate to each other has been proving to be very difficult. To date it has been the most difficult issue in this whole process. Disclosing to clients, family, friends and employees has been a cakewalk compared to forging a new relationship dynamic. Where will we end up is either of our guesses, but our communication as never been more open, candid or honest. I wish Lynn well in her pursuit of inner peace and contentment. Lynn and her wife need to develop and as all couples with trans issues, the trust, candidness, openness, and honest conversation skills to facilitate a new relationship dynamic.

I Identify with Melissa's term Transitioner, as it best describes me at this point in my life. I can also understand the anger those that have transitioned or are transitioning have against those that say they are ts but are dreaming or fence sitting. The latter have no skin in the game. Those of us that made the decision to take action and actively transition have made real sacrifices, And in many cases have suffered true loss to be who they are destined to be.

No transitioning is not undertaken by a brave individual, but by one that has run out of options. We all face fears and I know I have for years. It finally reached a point I had to battle those fears and take action. My biggest fear losing the love of my wife has materialized and I have no more fears left. You may think you are ts and if in your mind you find solace, who am I to say otherwise. But you can see how not taking action would bother those of us that have or are actively transitioning deal daily with the challenges of attaining our true nature in spite of the odds against us. It is hard for me to consider someone that is dreaming or fence sitting taking absolutely no action of any kind whining about their angst seriously.

What was it Roosevelt said "The only thing we have ot fear is fear itself"
You might also want to analyze my sig

[kittypw GG]

I suspect your wife is also totally stressed out. She has the same issues about finance and raising kids. On the flip sides she is sitting there stressed out because her husband wants to transition to a woman. All these restrictions she wants to impose on you are her attempt, however futile, to understand what's going on and save her marriage. Does she understand a person's desire to transition? I would venture to say she is totally confused. She does not know how to proceed. There's always two sides to the story. Your post is only conveying one side of the story. Maybe counseling will help. I suspect it will not. Once she understands who you are and who she is, she'll be better able to make rational choices. Don't stay together for the sake of the children. They will survive better than living in a home full of marital disharmony.

I will guarantee that your wife is probably more stressed out than you. I very much agree with Stephanie. Your wife doesn't have a clue about you because you don't either. This is a very painful situation and your are just prolonging the lie by agreeing to such demands. You need some intense counseling and please for the sake of your family Set them free. Be the hero, be honest. I see a divorce in the near future. The way you handle it now will impact not only the divorce, custody and co-parenting. You need to become a stable person ASAP.

[Badtranny]

A transexual is what you are not what you do.

I don't have a quarrel with that.

[LeaP]

there is also a transition for people who don't want to go that far so that they can still be who they are meant to be, which is somewhere in the middle if they cannot see themselves divorcing their wives, losing their jobs, and having their penises removed. This is what my SO did. And in the process she has determined that she is not a guy nor is she a full time female. And she is OK with it.

With all respect, Reine, what you are describing is not transition.

My point was that one doesn't transition (really transition, that is) in order to find out they are a woman. That's nonsensical. One comes to that realization to be brought to the point of transition. I recognize that a few - very few - non-TS also transition for a variety of reasons, but I wasn't referring to such in my comment.

[mary something]

I agree that you need to get a handle on yourself, as hard as that is to do, and I've been there honey. If you think you have problems to deal with now I can tell you that adding a contentious divorce and all the drama that accompanies it will make everything much worse, and impact how difficult transition will be for you in ways you might not realize right now.

[Lynnmorgan451]

Sooooooooooo if I'm only wanting to transition to the point of NOT cutting off my soldier, then I'm not a transsexual? I mean, regardless, I wouldn't be on this website if I wasn't having issues coping with a gender confusion of sorts. I mean, I am not willing, at this point in my life, to destroy a family, divorce an awesome woman and leave three children without a father, and because I can't afford to transition either I must not be transexual?? I haven't had the opportunity to live as a woman for a year for obviously the same reasons, but that doesn't define anything either. I know what I am inside and out. I am a girl with a penis. I don't even have a masculine body, never did, and I've always had manboobs even before I started hormones, so It wasn't even like I was really trapped in the wrong body, except for that one dangling detail.
I know I WANT to be seen as a woman. I want to look in the mirror everyday and see me looking as cute as I can in age appropriate female clothes. I want my hair to grow out the way it was pretty much my whole life. I want to be accepted by the people who are closest to me. I want to go to work and school and have people hold doors for me and tell me I look pretty or compliment my outfit!
My wants are wishes. Some plausible, some not. But overall I know that in my mind and in my life right now the way things have to be, I am in stealth mode...Like a reverse stealth mode. A woman pretending to be a man in order to preserve the greater good. You gotta do what you gotta do and right now this is my life, and this is what I have to do. I'm going to be leaning on you all a lot in the next few months. I can tell already after 4 days without wearing panties or shaving my legs that I'm going to need you all more than I ever thought I did before. So, THANK YOU ALL for being here because you define my existence!!!!

xoxo

[Annaliese]

It show you love your wife, but does she love you to put you through this, you say " I am not in prison or a mental Institution" your not, everything you do is controlled even who you communicate with here without supervision. That sound like prison to me, and to stop being who you are, you will need the mental institution.
This is a Compromises to save a marriage it sound like you gave up everything who you are and what did she give up.

[Rianna Humble]

Lynn, what you describe would certainly make you transgender, but that is not the same as transsexual. Whether you are also TS is partly for you to discover through therapy that will help you to ask yourself the correct questions.

A major distinction between transgender (including Gender Nonconforming according to WPATH) is the desire to have Gender Confirmation Surgery - often referred to as SRS (wrongly imnsho).

[Lynnmorgan451]

A major distinction between transgender (including Gender Nonconforming according to WPATH) is the desire to have Gender Confirmation Surgery - often referred to as SRS (wrongly imnsho).

I looked at that benjamin scale thingy and its just too vague to be accurate. If I had to choose a level though, based on the way I feel I would put me at IV. Maybe. Idk. If I had millions of dollars I would be on HRT the rest of my life, I would get an orchiectomy, breast implants, a shave of the ole' adams apple and maybe a lil face stretch cuz I have a big scar on my forehead I dont like too much. I mean, I don't wanna have "it" cut off because primarily I am afraid of the complications and relearning how to pee, how to get pleasure from sex IF I could ever get pleasure from sex again. I think theres a 30% chance or something?

NOW if there was a MAGIC SPELL that could change me into an ACTUAL GG then HOLY CANOLI batman GIMMIE GIMMIE GIMMIE!!!!

[Sandra1746]

Hi Lynn,
You have restarted the old discussion as to whether someone who wants "some" HRT or GRS is really TS or TG, or crazy. As for me, I am on HRT and would opt for an "orchi" but nothing more. Why, because that would satisfy several medical, hormonal, and persona-problems and would be accepted by my wife. She is OK with HRT, in fact she loves the new, more-mellow me it has produced.

The Benjamin scale is intentionally vague because it is a "psychological profile", there is no TG-gene that can be tested for, just as there is no gay-gene. I do not consider myself TS, but I feel I am TG and somewhere near the upper end of the scale. I see that "attraction to men (homosexual feelings)" is a big part of the scale, well I have no interest in men; and almost none in women either. The scale is not a 1:1 mapping. I have seen folks here argue for and against the Benjamin scale and almost as passionately for, or against the WPATH guidelines; and not always in accord with the points. The curious fact is that Harry Benjamin is responsible for both, and both are now quite old.

Medical opinions and protocols evolve with greater understanding and, especially in gender identity issues, the field is still far from settled. I realize this gives no good "answers" but I fear there are none to be had. Everyone is different and everyone's circumstance is different, you have to find your own path. However it is essential that you do it in a safe (medically supervised) and considerate manner.

Good luck and hugs,
Sandra1746

[ReineD]

With all respect, Reine, what you are describing is not transition.

My point was that one doesn't transition (really transition, that is) in order to find out they are a woman. That's nonsensical. One comes to that realization to be brought to the point of transition. I recognize that a few - very few - non-TS also transition for a variety of reasons, but I wasn't referring to such in my comment.

I agree Lea, it's not transition as is defined and necessary for transsexuals to align their bodies to their internal genders. And it's also true that (most) people don't transition just to see if it fits, just as most gender variants don't come out as bigender publicly just to see how that fits either. Unfortunately, because not many people understand the concept of a gender that is neither purely male or female, they do not have any other language to describe themselves than TS even if their concept of transition is to wear dresses every day, and this is confusing for the people who knew without a shadow of a doubt when they were children, that they were not the gender their parents thought they were as it is confusing for the gender-variants' SOs.

It's not nonsensical though. :) It's a different way and in my view a necessary way to look at, or acknowledge the validity of a state of being that moves from the purely male that is currently condoned and accepted in our rather strict society, to a place that is publicly in the middle between male and female. This is rather a big change and the person who described this I though did a good job. It validates the MtFs who are not transwomen but who are neither males nor fetish or hobby crossdressers.

I ricocheted off your comment, I wasn't wanting to restate what you said in my own words. :hugs:

Edit - Really, there are lots of different kinds of transitions. There's the transition from child to adult, from single to married and vice-versa, to describe the color gray as a pathway from black to white, etc. The word is not strictly used in a TS sense.



Not every TS woman transitions...

This is true. Of course there are people who cannot have SRS for medical or financial reasons perhaps, but they do live 24/7 as women with legal name changes, don't they? To do otherwise would be devastating to them. If, however, they are happy with their choices to continue to live as male even if they dress part time, can they really say that they are women? This doesn't make sense either to me.

[Frances]

Hi Lynn,
Please stop saying "cutting it off," "having it cut off," and other permutations. SRS does not involve "cutting off" the "little soldier" or "wang" (your expressions). Also, they remove the catheter five days or so after surgery, and relearning to pee takes about 5 minutes. As for the 30%, I personnaly don't know any trans person who was not sensate afterwards, and I know at least a hundred of post-ops.

[Lorileah]

These rules were made with the expectation that either you would break them and she could leave you or you would be so miserable, you would suggest leaving (which is what I think she is looking for so that she does not appear to be the bad guy...you will be the one who walks out..not her).

I agree with everyone above, this is a train wreck waiting to happen.

[ReineD]

I haven't had the opportunity to live as a woman for a year for obviously the same reasons, but that doesn't define anything either. I know what I am inside and out. I am a girl with a penis.

You don't have to live as a woman full-time to get a better sense of what you might like to do in the long run. My SO also questioned who she was and she determined to become just as active socially as herself as he had been. At the same time he didn't want to lose his job, so she had the freedom to go out frequently as herself, just not in her own backyard. After having done this for several years, every week and several times per week, plus having taken a week here and a weekend there to go somewhere and be herself for the entire time, she did determine that she was not TS and by that we mean that she has no wish to alter her body in any way, or have a legal name change, or live full time even. But, she didn't really know that until she had lots, and I mean TONS of outings under her belt to everywhere ... errands, restaurants, hiking, shopping, shows, galleries, and a slew of other places that we all go to.

Also, girls don't have penises. There are genetic men who choose to live as men, who are very feminine and who have penises, but they are not TS. They are called gender-variant. My SO is like you and she is not fully male either. There is a thread in this section that describes this, you should read it ... Kathryn Martin's thread about being broken (even though it's not really about being broken :p).

EDIT - So as I was saying, you should stop telling your wife that you are TS if you want more freedom to go out and see what it's all about over the long-term, since she likely has the same definition of TS as I did before I ever knew my SO. I took TS to mean someone who no longer wanted to live male with male body parts in any way. I suspect this is why your wife is being so strict. She's wanting to hang on to her husband because in her heart she doesn't believe that you are a woman, even though I'm sure that she does acknowledge your femininity. There's a huge difference between the two. Sorry if this is harsh, but you did say that you want to continue living as a male. :hugs:

[Lynnmorgan451]

I don't WANT to continue living as male, I HAVE to.....and...you said earlier that I'm passable?? :-D
I agree with you though about telling my wife I'm TS.....she is probably scared that I want SRS which I.........don't??? Maybe?? Ummm ....grrrrr......I just don't know...which is why I put myself around level four....I know it's not "cutting off" it gets dissected and repurposed BUT......I just ....it's like LASIK eye surgery....it's a great idea, but I think I'll wait until they got a better method than just cutting your eyes to ribbons with a laser.....I'm not smart enough to use the right words here I don't think... :-p

[arbon]

I think you are doing the right thing and should keep living as male.

[Rianna Humble]

Sandra, if you define 8 months as "quite old", what constitutes "quite recent"?

[kittypw GG]

.
This is a Compromises to save a marriage it sound like you gave up everything who you are and what did she give up.

I can't believe that you had the nerve to say that. What did she give up? How about a stress free marriage with a man, the father of her children. She shouldn't have to juggle everything that comes with children and a husband who is a stressed out problem. What women goes into a marriage with a man and thinks that he will drop this kind of bomb on her? After you have 3 children? Again remember there are always two sides to every story. I don't think Lynn's wife deserves a spot under the buss.:thumbsdn:

[Sandra1746]

If your question wasn't directed to me; my apologies.
From a GOOGLE search the Benjamin Scale seems to date from 1966 and the WPATH guidelines were first published in 1977, although they have been updated recently. This was the nature of my "quite old" comment.

Best regards,
Sandra1746

[stefan37]

But you do want to continue living as a male. You do not want to take any actions to change the course of your life. Hormones are relatively inexpensive, other than lab work and doctor visits, so that excuse is out. But if you make the decision to start hrt, that will put your marriage in jeopardy. You have some hard decisions to make in the next few months about the direction of your life. you also need to start a serious candid discussion with your wife about your goals and ask her what her goals are? From your previous posts and the conditions she has imposed and as Reine said it may sound harsh but I do not see a successful resolution. And I doubt if you had a million dollars all your fears will disappear you will start to transition. All the reasons you give not to transition will still be valid regardless how much money you have. Yes money does make getting surgeries easier to obtain, but the hard work needed to transition along with the courage and resolve can not be gained because one has money. To the contrary those with easy access to money skipping the necessary steps to determine if transition is right many times regret their decision and poison the public perception of those that do need to transition and do so successfully.

Transition is serious business and there is a very real possibility there will be lots of emotional pain and losses. You can think of yourself in any way you want, but to continue to live and present as male will mean you are a woman in your own head and the world will never see your authentic self. Your authentic self will never be reflected back, so how will that help relive your anguish? Good luck you are in for a bumpy ride.

I agree with Kitty that Lynn's wife does not deserve blame in this. She did not sign up for what she is going through. Raising 3 young children coupled with the uncertainty of her future would certainly put most of us in a stressful state. This is not about somebody wanting to only cross dress and live as a male with no thought process of taking it further. It is about a spouse declaring she is transsexual but not knowing to what extent she want to transition to. There are a few couple on this forum that are still together, this forum aside I personally know no transitioned woman in or out of my support group that is still married. The odds are against it. The best course of action would be the transitioning individual to give their spouse the space needed for their spouse to reach a comfort level of their own. It will not be easy and their will tons of anger and emotional distress, but it the only fair course of action for the non transitioning partner.

[Ruby B]

If you truly love someone, don't you accept them for who they are?

[stefan37]

Easy for us to say the we accept them for what they are. But it is not that simple. A female that is not wired internally to feel attraction to other females will feel repulsed with the idea of loving and sleeping with a female partner. The fact that the transitioning partner will change physically, mentally, emotionally will change the relationship dynamic. My wife still loves me and I her, it is the major reason we are still navigating a resolution to stay together. But we will never be sexually intimate and intimate physical contact at this time is limited. She married a man and that man is no more. She feels very uncomfortable around me and how people think about her and us. She struggles wrapping her head around why a middle aged male would want to change gender. We sleep in separate rooms. I no longer burden her with my issues and when she feels the need she brings the topic up and we discuss it. She is really trying to understand and has been getting involved with others in similar circumstances. Support for wives with transitioning or transitioned husbands is scarce. We do not know how we will resolve our issues, but our conversations lately have been devoid of emotion, candid, honest and we are communicating on a level far higher than at any time in our 33+ year relationship.

[Lynnmorgan451]

If you truly love someone, don't you accept them for who they are?
Of course.....unless one day the other person comes bursting out of the closet as someone TOTALLY different and of the opposite sex....surprise!!!! But it's still me!! I promise!! Thanks for the dress! :-/

[JohnH]

If you truly love someone, don't you accept them for who they are?

When a person born physically as male undergoes M2F HRT the body scent changes, there is redistribution of body fat, development of breasts, and the skin becomes softer. My wife also tells me I now have feminine gestures and mannerisms. In fact once I have been given a wolf whistle from a young man while looking at my girlish butt.

Those are HUGE changes, Fortunately in my case my wife suggested my going on the HRT and wants me to continue. So I can see Lynne, your wife could have issues with going on M2F HRT.

John

[Kaitlyn Michele]

If you truly love someone, dont you accept them for not accepting who you are?

[LeaP]

Brilliant, Kaitlyn, and yes.

[Lynnmorgan451]

So we had a fight tonight. A bad one. And now I'm sleeping in my office at work. At a desk. Miserable. I have no idea what to do now. I can't do anything right and if I try to stand up to her about something as trivial as " please don't ignore me I feel like a ghost" all hell breaks loose....she smashed the glass door on the stove and destroyed my computer and the desk it was on. Need a roommate anyone?

[Deborah_UK]

Not wanting to get flamed! but here goes.

Time and time again on here its stated those who transition do so in the knowledge that they could lose everything in their life, friends, family, job but still they transition because they have no other option. I was lucky, most of my friends remained, my partner a heterosexual woman is now my best friend (she has another man in her life), and my employer has strong gender policies. I was prepared to lose those friends/partner, it may have been more difficult without a job though!

I see these threads and the phrase "wanting my cake and eating it" springs to mind - I'm sorry but "girl with a penis?" No - as Reine says, girls don't have that appendage. In my opinion, MTF TS's don't get the privilege of calling themselves women or girls until they start living (and I mean living, not just putting on a dress to go shopping etc) in that gender, by all means consider themselves non-op MTF TS but calling themselves women or girls while still living as a man, no sorry, doesn't work for me.

[Ceri Anne]

Lynn, those are very severe conditions, but if I were in your boat, I would look at it as a short term compromise also. The shaving issues are of course to keep you "honest" to your commitment. With luck, and counceling for both of you and time, she may come to understand. Even accept. My wife and family are very important to me, which is the reason I havn't figured out how to come out yet. The risk is very great, but I'm working towards it. Anyway, this is about you, and I hope you see this post. She needs to know she can trust you, that you still love her, and honestly, just to have time where she feels safe to digest this. You have your time every two weeks, maybe by August, things will be better. I wish you well and admire your commitment to her.

[Lynnmorgan451]

everything in their life, friends, family, job but still they transition because they have no other option. I was lucky, most of my friends remained, my partner a heterosexual woman is now my best friend (she has another man in her life), and my employer has strong gender policies. I was prepared to lose those friends/partner, it may have been more difficult without a job though!

I see these threads and the phrase "wanting my cake and eating it" springs to mind - I'm sorry but "girl with a penis?" No - as Reine says, girls don't have that appendage. In my opinion, MTF TS's don't get the privilege of calling themselves women or girls until they start living (and I mean living, not just putting on a dress to go shopping etc) in that gender, by all means consider themselves non-op MTF TS but calling themselves women or girls while still living as a man, no sorry, doesn't work for me.

Are you F****ing kidding me? Ok ok ok....hahahahahahaha LISTEN.. I don't have to put on a dress or mascara or heels or ANYTHING to justify to YOU or anyone else who I am inside...ok? How many minutes per day you spend in drag earns you girl points? Oh plEEEEEZ spare me...I have serious issues here and I'm not going to split hairs on symmantecs and phraseology. For goodness sake did you even read any of the sh*t I've posted?? Have cake and eat it too? How about at the END OF MY ROPE...F**k the cake. I just want to survive this

[Deborah_UK]

I'm sorry Lynn but that is my impression and I'm sorry you had to react that way, your wife does not want a "girl with a penis" so either you walk away or you live in an unhappy marriage.

I am not asking anyone to justify themselves to me, I'm not that arrogant, but as someone who was prepared to lose partner and family to be who I really am I find the attitude of those only wanting to transition and expecting everything in the garden to carry on smelling of roses, well those gardens smell of fertilser too.

I don't wish you hurt and hope you can find a path that suits - but as you've already discovered there probably isn't a compromise that works.

[Kathryn Martin]

So let me get this right, you came out to your wife recently that you are "transsexual", then you proceeded to take lots of pictures of your girly self in which you pout, YOU POUT, you proceed to go proceed to go on the internet and have cybersex with another woman, that mentally f*ucking someone else which your wife finds out on top of everything else. You confirm at every turn that you want to live like a girl but your "wang", your "little soldiers" stays. You don't want "to cut it off". You tell us that the "Benjamin thingy" is too vague for you but that you are a "level four".

Honey, let me give you some advice: you are not transsexual, you are having a fantasy about the girly things, you are ignoring your wife and children, and before long it's going to affect your job. If your wife threw you out last night, "destroyed" your computer maybe it is time to pay attention to her instead of your girlfriend Lynnmorgan. Just get your man clothes on, go back to your family and start mending fences. Otherwise you just might end up being another dude in a dress who lost everything.

[stefan37]

Well Lynn I cannot say I did not see this coming. Are you in real distress? Hard to say, as I do not know you personally. You claim to be a woman, but want to retain all your male equipment and privileges. You claim to love your wife and remain married, yet you go online and cyber another individual. That speaks volumes where your relationship was before you dropped the I am ts bomb on your wife. You have a never ending list of items that will prevent you from transitioning. You can think and call yourself anything you want, (no skin off my back) but until you take concrete steps to change your gender you will always be a guy in a dress. Seriously slow down, think what you really want out of life. Start a rational dialogue with your wife. Maybe start with asking her what she wants out of life and I know this may be hard LISTEN to what she has to say. then ask yourself without her what you want. Maybe there will be some common ground. Hopefully then you can open a honest candid rational conversation where both your lives can lead. If your goals are different, then the brutal truth is your marriage will not last. I hope you find the path you would like to take. But transition is serious business. It takes tremendous financial resources, commitment, resolve, perseverance and I think most importantly patience to reach your destination. I wish you luck Lynn.

[Angela Campbell]

I feel bad for you, because I can see you are confused and having some bad experiences. The truth is you have made some really bad decisions and when things do not go the way you hoped you made more bad decisions. Stop and look around for a bit and try to find a way to calm things down if it isn't too late.

[mary something]

Lynn, what was she specifically angry about? If you want support you will definitely get it here from ALL of us. If you want a bunch of people cheering you on while vicariously applying their personal situation to you and offering opinions may or may not have anything to do with your latest row with your wife I think it's safe to say there will be plenty of that also, I'm just not so sure how helpful that will be to you. I really think that you need help dealing with your gender variance and the anxiety that it can cause. I'm not so sure that your wife's anger is a result of her dealing with the philosophical question of whether or not a girl has a penis, or what the future will look like years from now. A mother with three children under age 5 is MUCH TOO BUSY with making sure everyone is fed, clean, clothed, and healthy to worry about the finer points of what does or does not make a woman.

I think that it's safe to say that it is "real" right now. Do you understand that one simple call to the police and you can be legally denied entrance to your house or family? Do you understand that the trajectory that you're on includes you being served divorce papers in the near future? I doubt that your employment situation is very safe if you continue sleeping at the office and demonstrate to your employer that your personal life is a mess. If she does file for divorce you will be hammered in family court with a temporary child support order and maintenance that could be staggering. An angry wife with three young children who files for divorce and accuses her husband of having an affair while simultaneously crossdressing and asserting that they are a woman with a penis will find NO SYMPATHY in the legal system. Are you financially prepared to pay a retainer fee for your divorce lawyer, possibly pay for her lawyer also, pay child support for your kids, rent for a second residence for you, and also help pay for your wife and children's residence? How about transition, it's really expensive. Can you afford a gender therapist and all the other necessary expenses that will occur with transition? What is your plan? It seems to me that you're on the path of losing your job and family, being unable to pay your obligations to your family and possibly even as little as 5 or 6 months away from jail time for lack of support. You need to wake up.

It is imperative that you take immediate steps to try and find a workable day to day solution with your wife that give her peace of mind that you will be an equal partner in your children's welfare. You are so caught up in your pink fog right now that I'm not sure your able to see her perspective here. As long as you use this forum to simply have a bunch of people tell you that anything that you want to do is right and that of course there is no other outcome than your wife's unacceptance and the total nuking of your family then of course that is exactly what will happen. Rest assured that if that time comes then you will still at least have people telling you that it was the only path and that is the plight of the transsexual, just don't expect a lot of the same folks offering you a roof over your head.

You say that you are a woman, my question to you is what kind of woman are you? I think that at the least you are acting like a man who is self-absorbed and frankly acting in a rather selfish manner right now. I'm not judging you but your choices, take this as advice from a big sister who cares.

How many women walk away from their kids? How many women with three kids under five would have posted this much on a thread that is four pages long and NOT ONCE show evidence that their welfare is more important than your own, or at least equally important? Being a woman has VERY LITTLE TO DO WITH THE CLOTHES THAT YOU WEAR, it's about how you interact with other people, how you place value on the relationships around you in relation to yourself. If you want your wife to understand that you are a woman inside then you need to act like one, not like a man with a fetish or like a 13 year old girl who just discovered the mall and mascara.

Honey you might feel like you're at "the end of my rope" but let me tell you that rock bottom is quite a bit farther down from where you are right now and you are speeding there like a bullet.

[Robbin_Sinclair]

The love of my life and I have been at each others throats pretty much since she found out I was transsexual. On and off, good days and bad days, then really bad days..........I think about other peoples problems and I even took care of some people in the hospital who have legs and feet amputated from being morbidly obese and diabetic and I think about what issues they deal with. When I compare them to mine it just seems silly. I don't have cancer or any autoimmune diseases. I'm not starving to death in Ethiopia. I'm not in prison or a mental institution. I'm not disabled in any way shape or form except for the notion that my body isn't female, its male. Oh my friggin God why is this such an issue to me?


Hi -- Your post has been on my mind for about 4 hours. I am newly visiting this site (which used to be my therapy) after couple of months away.

I love all the people who posted divorce. Generally, this is what I would have said, either doing this kind of work professionally or in a CD site. But you have to remember, this is a CD site. It's not the world. You know what the world thinks of us. At best we are Jamie Farr (Klinger) in MASH. At worst we are the old dead lady-man coming down the stairs in Bates Motel...but who are you?

Are you really a transexual? Pre or post op? Forgive me father if I am wrong but I think you are as transexual as much as I am. Yes, it would be nice to be female. But no junk? Really, no junk? That's a big step. I've been following that my junk around all my all my life. A lot of people have.

I like being a woman. Women are my real friends regardless of conventional anatomy. But I don't have to loose the junk to be a woman. That seems superficial.

Oh, by the way, Lynnmorgan. I have a new post coming. It has to do with marriage compromises and purging.

It is titled The Body Blue. Posting any moment now. xxrbbn

[Lynnmorgan451]

Sorry about my angry post last night. It was a bad night to say the least..I just want to clear some things up. I put my family's welfare before everything. I love my kids and give them TONS of attention. I love my wife and also give her tons of attention. I did NOT have cyber sex with anyone on the Internet. I was turning someone down for cyber sex and my wife saw the message. And because I'm "nice" and also quite "stupid" I told the girl I would give her a rain check.. ..I don't make enough money to pay for all the stuff Mary mentioned and just the thought of it makes me want to .....cry.....I don't care what you call me TS or TG or whatever it doesn't matter. I've been this way my whole life and the whole time in hiding, terrified to come out, terrified of my parents. I came out to my wife, which was hard for both of us, but she was somewhat accepting at first and as time went on, things started to change. We've been through a lot together and I really hope we can survive this. I really love my wife and I will present as man for her. But it's just a matter of time before the sadness takes over. Wow...that's funny...it didn't take long at all. I just want to be happy and I want that for my wife as well. I want a good life for my children and I want to be involved in it every step of the way. Too many bad choices are sealing my fate and I feel them slipping away. I can't live a life where I have to apologize once or twice a day and beg forgiveness. Sometimes I do stupid stuff and NEED to apologize, of course. But recently, it doesn't matter what I do. In her eyes I am wrong about everything...I remember she told me a story once about her ex boyfriend, before we got together. She said he was verbally, physically and mentally abusive to her so she turned the tables on him...every minute of his life she deliberately pushed his buttons to set him off and eventually freak out on her...she did this instead of leaving because she wanted to have a more concrete reason to send him packing.....I think she's doing this to me...I wish she never told me that story because I think about it every time she starts acting ridiculous and accusing me of weird stuff. I don't know...I'm so depressed right now I can't even think. My neck is killing me from sleeping in an office chair and I just want this day to end :-(

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Personally I think you trying your best. I think you have some ideas in your head that are unlikely to pan out the way you want though... Sometimes when people get into the whole you are not ts thing its not an accusation but a plea to step back...

i think you are right to bristle every time its said, and that feeling you get is good information about how the entire rest of your life is going to go

..think hard about this..
when someone here says "you are not ts" or "you sure seem more like you are "just" crossdressing", that feeling you get is just another version of what every single moment of your male life has been and will be if you stay the way you are...

no one in the world reflects back your femaleness..its death by 1000000000000 cuts.... walking out your door, you wave to the mailman..."howdy sir" he says...thats a cut... walking by the ladies clothes to pick up another pair of khakis..thats a cut... your promises that you make to your family...those will all cut..and they'll cut badly because you will find promises harder and harder to keep...

I hope you can step back from everything for a moment and try for a more day to day life with your family...stop making promises, no negotiations...if you are transsexual events will carry on, thats the way the whole gender dysphoria thing works...its 10000000 cuts..its a grind...nothing happens in an instant

.....if make your life smaller by living in the moment as best you can, you can create space to make progress, even if only in your mind ...anything you can do to defuse the current situation could help...

[mary something]

It sounds like a horrible night Lynn, and I;m sorry that you had to experience that. Perhaps when the time is right you should tell your wife exactly what you told us in your last post? I know my last post was harsh, I wrote it because I am scared for where you might be a week, a month, two months from now. Please take care

Love,
Mary

ps- I know thinking about your wife telling you about how she dealt with her ex is very painful right now because it is concrete evidence of where your relationship is, but truly it is a blessing that you know this info. You have to know the situation in order to change it for the better honey.

[ReineD]

I don't WANT to continue living as male, I HAVE to.....and...you said earlier that I'm passable?? :-D

Yes, you are passable! :) And believe me, going out as yourself on a regular basis is NOT living as a male when you think of it. How many males do you know who do this? :p

You could tell your wife that you have no wish to transition to a woman full time (this is the truth), but you do feel stuck between genders (this is not a lie), and you do need to take the time to go out and be yourself occasionally more than once per month and you can't do this with hairy legs and wearing a moustache. You can also tell her that you DON'T like yourself looking like a bearded fellow and you need to have the freedom to not be hairy if you don't want to be.

Anyway, I promise you that if you go out at least 100 times (twice per week for a year) to ordinary places and not just TG friendly places even if it is in the next town over (for now), you WILL be much clearer about what you want to do in the long term, and your self description (whatever it will be) will be a heck of a lot more accurate than it might be now, hardly having any experience expressing yourself in public yet. Does this make sense?

[Megan Thomas]

Lynn,

It takes two to have an argument. This is really starting to sound to me like she's drawing you into some degree of co-dependency. If so, it won't matter what you do you will never satisfy her. One day you'll be her white knight on horseback doing everything right, and then you'll be the most terrible control freak another day. I really think she needs more help than you do to be honest, and probably best done separately than together.

I really don't envy your situation but I do urge you to step back and don't allow yourself to be drawn into the game she's apparently playing. More than anything, if you behave in ways alien to you in order to appease others you will eventually break, quite possibly in a spectacular or even fatal way. Whatever the pain now don't allow it to build up further down the road.

[Lynnmorgan451]

I know my last post was harsh, I wrote it because I am scared for where you might be a week, a month, two months from now.

Your last post scared whatever BeJeezus out of me that I had left! The stomach pains that come from financial distress.....uugggghhhhhh

[ReineD]

....she smashed the glass door on the stove and destroyed my computer and the desk it was on. Need a roommate anyone?

It's an understatement to say that this isn't good. But, there are always two sides to every story, and at this point I suggest that you invite her to join this forum, join FAB, and talk to other GGs who are in her shoes. Honestly this will be immensely more helpful that what the two of you are doing right now, if only to help the two of you communicate better together.

[Lynnmorgan451]

Does this make sense?

You always make sense but sometimes your pills are hard to swallow....thanks for saying I'm passable :) that pill was like chocolate truffles!

[ReineD]

You always make sense but sometimes your pills are hard to swallow...

The bottom line Lynn is that your situation is currently a no-win situation on both sides, yours AND your wife's. I'm basically suggesting a longer term cooling off period in which time hopefully the two of you can learn to breather again, while you also tell her the current truth that you do not want to transition, and hopefully you'll follow my other suggestions.

And THEN you can focus on defining yourself. It's just too early to do that right now. I'm not saying that you're a guy at all. :hugs:

[Lynnmorgan451]

at this point I suggest that you invite her to join this forum, join FAB, and talk to other GGs who are in her shoes. Honestly this will be immensely more helpful that what the two of you are doing right now

She's not interested in joining. I've asked her and kinda explained why I think it would help but its a ridiculous idea in her mind and embarrassing. She refuses to spend any time learning about my issues, which I know she's a busy one with the kids and to a point understandable. But still, she wont even really listen when I try to talk about my feelings and such and when she does, she doesn't take me seriously. This whole thing is a big embarrassing joke to her. I think..Honestly I don't even know what she thinks of me anymore. An obstacle between her and happiness is probably accurate enough.


This is really starting to sound to me like she's drawing you into some degree of co-dependency. If so, it won't matter what you do you will never satisfy her........ I really think she needs more help than you do to be honest

I totally agree with both of these statements. I think she's setting me up to whack me out of the court. And as much as I love her and as long as I've known her------> Hell ya she's crazy! <------ but so am I....

[ReineD]

She's not interested in joining. I've asked her and kinda explained why I think it would help but its a ridiculous idea in her mind and embarrassing. She refuses to spend any time learning about my issues, which I know she's a busy one with the kids and to a point understandable. But still, she wont even really listen when I try to talk about my feelings and such and when she does, she doesn't take me seriously. This whole thing is a big embarrassing joke to her. I think..Honestly I don't even know what she thinks of me anymore. An obstacle between her and happiness is probably accurate enough.

OK. It's clear that the situation has escalated to the point where there is am impasse. You did say at the beginning of this thread that you agreed to somewhat of a break over the summer. Just be sure to tell her that you do agree it is best to let things cool off for a bit and you will comply with her requests over the summer, tell her that you are doing this for her, but tell her that you will need to express yourself more than what is currently agreed upon (also stress that you DON'T want to transition and you want to continue being her husband and a father to your kids), and that the two of you should revisit this whole thing in the fall ... about the moustache and leg shaving rules. She does need to know that you are not happy with this, but it doesn't mean that she will lose her husband.

In other words, the color gray does exist as a compromise between black and white.

[mary something]

Lynn you are probably right that she is getting ready to whack you out of the court with the trajectory your relationship is on. That is why it has to change immediately. She made her ex-boyfriend the bad guy in her last relationship to justify her actions with her loved ones and friends for their emotional support. You need to be above reproach. You know her values and how she thinks, make yourself indispensable to your family.

Kathryn started an excellent thread about managing transition, you'll find some excellent advice there.

ps- this is my personal advice here, take it or leave it. Go to your Dr and ask for an ssri like Paxil that will fight the depression and anxiety and tame your sex drive. It will also lower your GD (personal experience) as your sex drive is lower and make it easier to deal with all the stresses in your life. Your wife will see you making a positive step to be a stable partner and give you some breathing room. Tell her you're doing it for your family. This will help stabilize your current situation and clear your head because you need every bit of your capabilities right now.

[Badtranny]

Yes, you are passable! :)

Please stop with this "passable" stuff. You have no idea what she looks like other than pics from this site. The CD's can convince each other that they're driving men crazy with their beauty but that's not the kind of thing we need to encourage here.

Lynn, is taking your compliment very seriously and the fact is you really don't know if she passes. Her avatar clearly looks like a CD, with a wig, beard shadow and bushy eyebrows. There is definitely some potential but let's at least TRY to be honest in the TS forum. Passing takes a LOT of work and Lynn hasn't even begun to do the work yet.

You know this is a pet peeve of mine, but that doesn't make it any less valid. Pictures do not give an accurate representation of someone's real life presentation. Why is this such a hard concept to grasp?

I suspect you understand exactly what I'm saying, but your intent is to be sweet and encourage Lynn, yet that still doesn't make it right to give hollow compliments. How does telling her she passes help her situation other than to give her a false sense of security?

[mary something]

I'm not sure it's even possible to pass all the time. Sometimes I pass, and other times, well other times it just sucks lol. I think it almost has more to do with your voice than any single physical feature. But I don't think that "passing" is the solution to her problems right now

[Frances]

Mary something said in post 100: "I'm not sure it's even possible to pass all the time."

I know lots of trans women who pass all the time, myself included. They are not gender varients though. They transitioned fully without making compromises.

[Kathryn Martin]

Misty, I think you raise an important point. What people who want to transition really need is real criticism, telling them about the things that don't work, etc. Most transitioners delude themselves about what they really look like and how they are perceived by others. I know of what I speak I was there. I think what we might have to say in the form of criticism would nothing compared to what most people will think when they see. I see avatars and I think oh my god, do they look in the mirror before they take a picture. Learning to critically assess yourself is crucial.

Nobody for instance would consider Frances as anything other than a woman even if she wore jeans and button down shirt. It's not clothes and presentations. It is how you move, the space you occupy, how you occupy that space, how you talk to people (not voice but body language) how you walk gesture etc.

[Lynnmorgan451]

Thanks bad tranny....thanks for crapping on my moment of happiness in the past two days of hell on earth...




I know lots of trans women who pass all the time, myself included. They are not gender varients though. They transitioned fully without making compromises.


If you pass all the time then why no pics?? Afraid us bearded bushy eyebrowed folk will get jealous?

[mary something]

Frances, haven't I read your posts before that your facial structure was already in the female range?

but anyway, was just trying to make the point that voice for example is important when it comes to passing, how someone would know what Lynn's voice sounds like over this forum is beyond me

[Kaitlyn Michele]

actually i skyped with her a number of times over the years...she couldnt "not pass" if she tried...

her comment about no compromise is totally true ..of course a little luck helps too..

[Frances]

If you pass all the time then why no pics?? Afraid us bearded bushy eyebrowed folk will get jealous?

I removed all my pictures and personnal information after the "incident" with the transphobic forumite. I was quite present on this forum before. I have been a member since 2005.

I'll post some pictures temporarily, but like mary something says, you cannot hear my voice on the pictures. I am 5' 7", 46 years old and post-op.

Edit: I removed the photos.

[mary something]

Yes I remember your pics now! You're beautiful honey, even you're height is perfect, maybe I was wrong cause as long as you don't sound like James earl jones I think you'll be just fine no matter the voice :)

[Lynnmorgan451]

You are post op! You don't have to worry about passing. You're the real deal sweetie :)
Very cute pics!

[Badtranny]

Thanks bad tranny....thanks for crapping on my moment of happiness in the past two days of hell on earth...

...and thank you for making my point much better than I ever could.

As for Frances, she is incomparable to any other TS I personally know. She is certainly a doll and very sweet, but even she will admit to being genetically gifted.

[ReineD]

Ooops, guess I started something with my passing comment. Sorry people.

Misty, I really do think that younger people can easily blend in, while it is more difficult for older folks without FFS. I was saying this to encourage Lynn to go out since I think this is the best way to help clarify things.

To Lynn ... Misty is right, no one can tell from a tiny pic in a thread what you really look like in RL. But, if my SO can do it (she's mid-50s without FFS), so can you. Don't get me wrong, my SO is read especially when she talks to people, but she is feminine. The people that she interacts with do respect her for who she is and we (and she) very seldom get any grief. What all these people are thinking privately, we don't know.

The ladies in this forum are correct, "passability" is nice but not crucial, not in our day and age. It's more about how you carry yourself and you have to do the basics of course ... no salient male cues like beard, bushy eyebrows, hairy arms & legs, etc. And dress like all the other GGs. And work on your voice. If you can't change it, don't go into a falsetto, just try to speak softly.

... and you'll do just fine.

[Rogina B]

And I thought people were trying to stop having another computer get thrown through the window! Just like not knowing what a person actually presents as in real life,no one here other than the OP knows what is really said between themselves and their wife..I think there is more than a few issues here as didn't this all start with cybersex?

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Reine to a woman that has transitioned, being passable is NOT being read when she talks to people....its not blending in ...being tolerated and accepted vs being embraced and having your femaleness simply assumed and directly reflected back at you are two different things...

Its totally unfair, but for a person that is living permanently as a female , the benefits of passing cannot be overestimated....not passing means you have to learn a whole new skill set to have a great quality of life... lots of folks dont pass and they get around it with a good attitude and usually by exuding an aura of femaleness that can't be denied even tho they are not really looking like it...that's really tough but sometimes it must be done...i also know some people that are flat out delusional about passing...my one story is about a person that i met through my electrologist that actively bragged about her passibility despite razor stubble and constantly adjusting her wig which did not fit...whatever works for you i thought... i must admit i sat there and said "oh yes you look great" but gently commented that she might consider getting working on that stubble...on the other hand my "big sister" was very critical of my ffs plans...i was physically scared and i rationalized what i needed...her advice made a $50k investment worth it...my choices would have been a disaster...thank goodness she was honest with me..

The concept of passing is different if you come at this from a perspective of a person that has a choice in how they present, someone who has only a momentary stake in the day to day ups and downs of being read out in public.. especially when you consider that basically when your SO is out she can't communicate with people unless she risks being read... its a great thing for a bi-gendered person to look pretty good, and mostly blend in as long as they dont talk...lots of cd's would envy that...

I think there is a RIGHT way to encourage ts people...which is to emphasize the positive and put a boot in their butt and push them out the door to find out for themselves...and that means NO checking out of the self serve line at the supermarket..no shuffling through the mall with your head down, and no mumbling and pointing to your choice at the restaraunt..you have to actually live...

I think the right way to do a favor to someone consider going out in context of being ts is brutal honesty...thats really tough with pictures...people view us from every single angle and head on shots way overstate "passability"...lynn has work to do to learn the right female image for herself... many people will read her is my best guess....i was read 1000 times before ffs....i learned to be ok with that over time...i learned which wigs worked better, which clothes worked better and only by talking to people and gauging their reactions did i learn my own true voice...which turned out to be basically my old voice with some sugar and spice ....


PS--lynn has been really really fearlessly honest and open...responding directly to all comments....we owe it to her to get it right...
there was NO cybersex...lynn got a cybersex request and responded sarcastically(which never plays in cyberspace)....

FFS is not ever ever neccessary for anyone...being "totally" passable is never ever neccessary for anyone... but if you believe you will pass all the time and you are planning to transition, you are in for lots of disappointment...especially if your state of mind is intoxicated by femininity...

[MysticLady]

I removed all my pictures and personnal information after the "incident" with the transphobic forumite.

Can you elaborate on the "incident"



I'll post some pictures temporarily, but like mary something says, you cannot hear my voice on the pictures. I am 5' 7", 46 years old and post-op.


You're a very beautiful woman. I would proud to display my pictures if I were you. Kudos



FFS is not ever ever neccessary for anyone...being "totally" passable is never ever neccessary for anyone... but if you believe you will pass all the time and you are planning to transition, you are in for lots of disappointment...especially if your state of mind is intoxicated by femininity...

I must agree...Don't let this intoxicate you. Your best bet is to handle this with a clear and realistic conscience. Don't let it get the best of you.

[Frances]

The incident in question resulted in many suspensions, bannings, departures and rancor. A lot of good people left the site. I am still simmering. I would rather not elaborate on it.

[Ruby B]

If you truly love someone, dont you accept them for not accepting who you are?

Yes. Thanks for your perspective. I can see your point and appreciate your post. Any fool can post, the point is to to understand. Thank you for letting me see the bigger picture.

[mary something]

Kaitlynn you expressed something I was trying to say but didn't. How do you know if your passing as a woman or as an accepted ts? Sometimes it feels one way, other times it feels like the other, in my case being 5'11 and heavy is an obstacle... Only one can be changed.

Ruby and kaitlynn- how do you tell the caterpillar that you don't accept it as a butterfly?

[Lynnmorgan451]

Update: We slept in the same bed last night........I cuddled her to sleep while we watched a movie. We didn't really talk too much because us idiots usually screw things up with our mouths open. It was nice. Still a little uncomfortable but as far as things go, I think for now we are ok. She started a new job today and when she left the house she turned back around and looked up at me holding our baby girl. She leaned in and kissed the baby, then looked back at me, rolled her eyes and smirked and gave me a kiss. Then she told me she loves me.....I think we're ok. All my clothes are still in a tote in the back of my car. My pillow, toothbrush and other crap is still at my office but I'm thinking that maybe the "collecting and removing" of my stuff from the house may have triggered a thought of regret in her mind for freaking out on me. I think we may just have a good weekend :) wish me luck!


Edit---- we did talk yesterday...text talking while I was at work ( I got ahead of myself with this post and forgot this part :-p ) I asked her what I can do to fix this?? And she said " come up with a smart strategy that is realistic to get us to the next chapter of our lives in a civilized manner putting the kids first". Which was really cool and sorta means she wants to become more independent from me, which is good! In a way, I want her to have more freedom from the kids and me.....cuz I don't care who you are you can overdose on people....anyway....I'm a scatterbrain for sure

[Lynnmorgan451]

Idc if I'm passable or not but I feel good and don't make fun of my pouty face cuz my smile is blah.


http://i1338.photobucket.com/albums/o691/lynnmorgan451/64A6EAB3-9771-4FA6-95A9-36801EDEE05E-21780-00000F3942B45B78_zps397a75a1.jpg

[Kathryn Martin]

:facepalm::facepalm:Oh my..........

[mary something]

Good luck! Keep posting!

[ReineD]

Reine to a woman that has transitioned, being passable is NOT being read when she talks to people....its not blending in ...being tolerated and accepted vs being embraced and having your femaleness simply assumed and directly reflected back at you are two different things...

I know Kaitlyn. :) I read again my last post and I misspoke when I said that passing is not important. But, there've been TSs in this section who have said that passing is all about attitude and who've minimized the importance of passing too. ... I guess it just depends on the context of the discussion.

At any rate, I made a suggestion directly to Lynn who does not want to transition, and I was suggesting that she should go out for a year as herself to see how she feels about it all in twelve months time. I'm guessing that Lynn would also not want to have FFS at this time, nor take hormones which would pretty well annihilate her sex life with her wife. So, she has no option but to do what my SO has done and minimize male gender cues in different ways, and completely blend into the crowd when out and about as long as she is at the periphery of everyone's attention. At the same time we all know that a feminine presentation for most people who have not had FFS and HRT is not fool proof when interacting directly with someone, although younger people do have a much better chance of accomplishing this that middle aged folks.

I was also pointing out to Lynn that being read in this context (given that she does not want to transition, have FFS, nor take HRT at this time), is not the end of the world either ... or it certainly has not been for my SO. She knows a lot of people (outside of the LGBT community) who do not know her as a man, but who totally respect her for who she is and who are very friendly to us.

I'm not suggesting that transwomen should walk around having tell-tale signs they were born in a male body, although I do wish to point out for Lynn's benefit because she's fairly new, that it can take some years after FFS before this is accomplished.

[kellycan27]

I know Kaitlyn. :) I read again my last post and I misspoke when I said that passing is not important. But, there've been TSs in this section who have said that passing is all about attitude and who've minimized the importance of passing too. ... I guess it just depends on the context of the

I have never heard anyone who can "pass" say that it's not important or overrated. Attitude is a great if you don't care if you get read. My money says that if these girls could experience what it's like to truly pass as a woman ..... They'd change their tune.

[Marleena]

Wow 5 pages already and nothing really resolved yet, maybe a truce that's it.

[Lynnmorgan451]

Well hopefully we are working things out. It kinda feels like we are :-/

And btw everybody , I've been on hormones for almost two yrs.
anyway I can't even begin to tell you all how much I appreciate your input and guidance. Even though I'm pig headed stubborn and obnoxious I really thank you all. Even the mean ones. Especially the mean brutally honest ones :)

[TeresaCD]

Well hopefully we are working things out. It kinda feels like we are :-/
Especially the mean brutally honest ones :)
Good to hear, Lynn
And to love someone is to be brutally honest (when the time is right) in my opinion.

Passable or not, I think you are pretty!
(You are almost smiling in the red top too)

[Kathryn Martin]

I know Kaitlyn. :) there've been TSs in this section who have said that passing is all about attitude and who've minimized the importance of passing too. ... I guess it just depends on the context of the discussion.

Passing is such an interesting thing. I have a friend and she has really lost in the genetic lottery. Her shoulders are wide as a brick house, her torso is shaped like a V, she has no hips, she sprouts facial hair and her voice is as gravely and deep as any truck drivers'. And!!!!! she is a a genetic female. She never gets mistaken for a man, ever. In fact she exudes femaleness.

We tend to think of passing as a perfection of a ruse. All of the discussion here revolve around that aspect. Facial surgery, behavior, clothing, comportment, movement etc. are all perfected to make the world believe that we are who we are. Yet, there are websites now that teach people "how to spot the tranny". For instance here (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120202035652AAMD4Ei) or here. (http://www.hollyjean.sg/2009/07/10-ways-to-spot-tranny.html)

No one ever seems to think that being female is really not about creating an impression, succeeding in a ruse, making people believe. The friend I mentioned above would hardly have passed any of the "spot the tranny" tests but she is unquestionably female and is witnessed and mirrored as such. In passing that is your measure of success.

[arbon]

or here. (http://www.hollyjean.sg/2009/07/10-ways-to-spot-tranny.html)

.


OMG I passed the arm test!!!! I have woman arms, ain't that cool? Learn something new everyday. lol

[Kathryn Martin]

I really have to ask, why did you have to check it out?

[Lacyfem]

Well what a complex situation. My wife still doesn't know I crossdress and though I like it that way have been chastized by others for not being honest with her. She too is the love of my life and know that the situation you are in is what I'd be in for. That said I"m a crossdresser and not a transgender who wants to be a girl 24/7. Having not gone into the marriage being honest about your wanting to be a woman would be like her marrying you and then confessing to be an ax murderer and wanting her to accept that. You are asking a lot of her to accept what your asking as she wants a man and a husband and not another girl to be married to. It's very nice that you love her so much but you also are selfish to think you can totally change to the woman you want to be and still have the comforts of home, a lovely wife and kids that love you and don't care about this radical change you wish to go through. I fully understand your wifes position and her demands are ones that are telling you I want my man back and if she's over the top, she has that right and hopefully you see that. You've decieved her. I understand your feels as I'd like to dress so much more often than I do but do love my family a lot more than my love of crossdressing so keep it in check. Not easy but it is a choice and the choice you're making is going to cost you your marriage so think you need to get out of the marriage, become the woman you want to be and also still, and most important, be the father you need to be with your children. They will eventually understand and get over it as they will always love you as their father. You need to let your wife go as she's in great pain so she can hopefully put her life together, care for her children and find again hopefully another "man" to love her. If you don't choose to do this it's very selfish of you as what your doing is not a one way street only for you. Your need and pull to become a TG will not go away so it's up to you to make the important decisions.

[emma5410]

Having not gone into the marriage being honest about your wanting to be a woman would be like her marrying you and then confessing to be an ax murderer and wanting her to accept that.

Transexual = axe murderer. To be honest I never made that connection before. You live and learn. Some CDs are so knowledgeable.

[Rianna Humble]

Lacy, I understand that you have no frame of reference to allow you to understand transsexuals, but you really do go too far in comparing someone who was born female with a male body to an axe murderer.

You repeatedly speak of the original poster "wanting to become a woman", but if Lynn is indeed transsexual then that is definitely not the case. She cannot "want to become" what she is already.

You are hardly in a position to give Lynn lessons of morality since you admit that you have been lying to your wife by omission ever since you knew her.

Your desire to dress is not at all comparable to the extreme Gender Dysphoria that a transsexual experiences prior to transition. You are fortunate that you are able to repress your desire to cross-dress so that your wife does not discover it, but saying that you do this because you love her - and thereby implying that Lynn does not love her wife and children - is beyond the pale.

You urge Lynn to "be the father you need to be with your children". How is she to do this if her Gender Dysphoria drives her beyond despair?

[Kaitlyn Michele]

oh my gosh thank you rianna.....

this is a common theme that highlights just how disbeleived and misunderstood we are in the world..including by our supposed friends in the so called "tg umbrella"...

[mary something]

I'm not so sure that an umbrella that big could ever fit into a closet Kaitlynn ;). In my experience closets are small, restricting, and so dark you can't even see a hand inches from your face. I suppose one could argue that they are safe, but if even a little illumination burns as if staring at the sun I would argue that even safety isn't insured. The only certainty I knew when there was that I would face an almost endless string of days filled with a dead feeling inside and almost existential loneliness. Lacy, if you are reading this I would ask you simply to examine why you feel the need to find the situation analogous to being an axe murderer? We see the world as WE are, not as it truly is. Good luck on your journey.

Rianna thanks for raising the point of Lynn's children and how does she proceed from here. I'm afraid that Lynn has her eyes so widely shut that even her wife's attempts at initiating an open dialog safely is falling on deaf ears. Lynn, honey, her words could be construed as telling you that not only is the relationship about to change but she might even be adamantly opposed to transition even if she's not your partner.

It is for this very reason Lynn that you need to realize that life is not a beauty pageant. There are some beautiful members here who may disagree, not that I wouldn't empathize because 15 years and 50 lbs ago I would have agreed with them. Let them debate how well they "pass" because that is the least of your concerns now. Our collective truth is that we will never pass in a dentists chair, or in an unexpected visit to the ER. Kathryn knocked it out of the park in her post, and I encourage you to read it. If you choose not to then simply consider passing to be the equivalent of being able to enter a restroom full of women and children, use the facilities as any normal woman while smiling or saying hi if appropriate, then exiting without incident. Any discussions beyond that remind of s a phrase I'm constantly telling my children, "its not a competition between you, only against yourselves". We are here for support, and you may need more than you anticipate right now.

[Badtranny]

Let's not hammer Lacy for being closeted. At least she knows who she is and even though her words ring hollow to the ears of a TS, you have to admit that she may just be calling it like she sees it.

I don't measure people by what they say. The most accurate measure I know is by actions, and Lynn's actions are textbook pink fog CD.

I wasn't experiencing a fraction of the angst that Lynn describes, back when I made the tough terrifying decision to transition, and I can't for the life of me understand why someone would continue to live in such a horrific circumstance. If things are that bad, then it's time to start talking. Time to start talking for real about things that are real.

Not deals, or compromises but real conversation about how you're going to handle the impending transition.

[Lynnmorgan451]

So I'm a textbook pink fog cd with an impending transition? Lol
You're cute ;)

[mary something]

How would you describe yourself Lynn?

[Badtranny]

So I'm a textbook pink fog cd

Yes. As far as I can tell.

That's what your actions say so far at least, and I know nothing of you except what you've written about yourself.

Consider that for a moment.

Your own words have formed my opinion. Is my comprehension so terribly bad that I'm just dead wrong? It's possible I guess.

[Lynnmorgan451]

Yes. As far as I can tell.



Your own words have formed my opinion. Is my comprehension so terribly bad that I'm just dead wrong? It's possible I guess.


Ask yourself why it matters so much to you? Because I'm not much for labels, and could care less!

I like your web page. It's cool! But I don't really get why someone who would make a whole website blog describing how you do it your own way, the wrong way, whatever , but don't you think there's room for my own way? Without stuffing me in a box and filing me away as temporarily hypnotized
Curious

I really do like your page though. I think we have a lot in common :)


How would you describe yourself Lynn?

Between a rock and a hard place??? Catch 22 sorta maybe??

I don't want to sacrifice my family. I don't want to sacrifice my life. Yet I am forced to choose.

It's only a curse because of other people's inability to accept me. I don't feel like what I am is horrible, I think it's a beautiful anomaly . It's everyone else in the world that are f**ked in the head.
:-(. ..

[mary something]

I feel ya there, she had some good advice I thought...

[Lacyfem]

Wow you read a lot into what i wrote that has nothing to do with what was asked.... At this point in time it's not fair to his wife with what he's asking of her. Where did I give a lesson in morality... no where...
You are hardly in a position to give Lynn lessons of morality since you admit that you have been lying to your wife by omission ever since you knew her.

[silverfurret]

At this point in time it's not fair to his wife with what he's asking of her.
It's not fair for her wife to smash her property just because it's difficult to understand being married to a transsexual.
Also can you please use the correct pronouns? it's hyper rude to use male pronouns to refer to someone who is female.

[Rianna Humble]

Lacy, you were not asking anything. You categorised the OP as a liar, then compared what a transsexual goes through to being an axe murderer.

Why are you now misgendering the original poster?

[Lynnmorgan451]

You need to let your wife go as she's in great pain so she can hopefully put her life together, care for her children and find again hopefully another "man" to love her. If you don't choose to do this it's very selfish of you as what your doing is not a one way street only for you.

I could never and would never turn my back on my wife. I will never decide to leave her because of my issues. If one day she finally decides she's had enough and wants a separation then I won't fight her. I might beg for a while but I want her to be happy and if I can't make her happy then she can decide when it's time to stop trying. I'm not a good giver-upper-er but I'm always willing to compromise...to an extent.

Things are okay tonight. We had a good Mother's Day. I worked all morning and then met up with them at the I laws for a cookout. I was dressed in my nicest button down manshirt that my wife loves. I had jeans and my old school vans with my hair slicked back like a greaser. Lol.....I had a beer and talked business with her old man, putting on my finest Macho performance in some time. She ate it up and it made me happy to make her happy. The painful truth is that I just can't keep putting on shows like this forever. Sooner or later I'm going to say, look.. This is not me! You know this
And hopefully she won't leave!! But I know I won't ever initiate a breakup....and I wouldn't call it weakness or selfishness. I think it's part of my vows, isn't it?

[Stephanie47]

I find your comment interesting since this is the entire issue confronting LynnMorgan and wife. Does LynnMorgan's wife refer to her spouse in the feminine? The masculine? I think that is the entire issue confronting both of them. If you were to meet LynnMorgan's spouse, would you tell her to use feminine pronouns when addressing her spouse?



Also can you please use the correct pronouns? it's hyper rude to use male pronouns to refer to someone who is female.

[Robbin_Sinclair]

This thread has been going on since March. It has taken more twists and turns than a 70s soap opera.

Control is all that it is about with your wife and you. If you have no idea what a power and control wheel is, ask anybody in domestic violence work with the Courts. And that's what you must do.

Find a friendly womens' center that deals with men who hit women (battery) and ask to see a free counselor. Nationwide, there are thousands of nonprofit organization that receive funding from one of two Federal sources: 1. The Violence Against Women Act (VAWA). 2. Victims of Violence Act (VOCA) funding.

You are a victim of emotional violence (emotional battery), the most common and most difficult problem in many households. You are a victim, perhaps your wife is too. And certainly your children. You owe it to your children to have a household that does not have all of this kind of cross emotion going on.

What's important? YOUR CHILDREN. Period. Do it for them. This is all free. Mommy/wifey should not control this to the extent you describe any more. Mommy/wifey may disapprove of what you decide to do but she is not the decision maker.

Do you want a government employed decisionmaker (i.e. family court judge) to change your life for you? You could lose custody of your children, or at least the time that they and you need with them. Talk to a true professional. This is not an Ann Landers issue.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

lynn...You are what you are..

You are trying to shoehorn your life situation into your identity.. for ts people its often not possible..and people are giving you all kinds of different angles and feedback about it...

There are many transgendered people here and they will rightly say you can live a gender blended lifestyle if you are transgendered...one confusing thing is that some of them will insist they are transsexual...and somehow be ok with living what is basically a male life... thats fine, maybe they are, but they are not suffering the deep deep gender dyshporia that causes other people to give up on life unless there is a prospect for transition...unfortunately for them, if they are ts, they will know what i'm talking about someday..

and then we have crossdressers trying to give you life lessons hoping to support you and perhaps they are well intentioned but their posts are more about them identifying with ts women than providing support.

...its like telling a clinically depressed person "hey look at me !! i'm happy!!! just be happy like me!!! Look at me!!! I didnt need meds!!! You dont either!!!"

its not about what's right or wrong..
its that IF you are ts, and if you are suffering bad gender dysphoria... the decisions you are making are very likely to not work out the way you want..

[Robbin_Sinclair]

Lynn -- My point was that cross dressers are not highly regarded by conventional society. Except for the massive approval that we have on our own CD sites, CDs are well below the conventional terms such as "gay" or even "other" in the eyes of society. To them we are a strange group of people who could be seen as dangerous to your children.

I have seen mothers follow a script that she, lawyers or girlfriends can write for her. Often it is simply because they come to believe it or are pressured into it. This comes up when divorce becomes an issue. Get divorced if you can. Perhaps you should. But first go there well armed with what will happen post divorce as far as the kids are concerned.

You need some back up and good legal/emotional advice for things beyond how you feel being a CD. You are a victim. You need an advocate, if the children are important to you and divorce may be a possibility. Advocates can be free and are open minded and can be very useful.

[mary something]

Robbin makes a good point Lynn, perhaps it would be wise to simply make sure you can prove at some point in the future that your wife is aware of your ts nature during the marriage and any dissolution of the marriage was not because of her discovery of it? Maybe in her own words from a text or email? It seems to me that if a situation occurs in the future that she would use that against you if you can show that she has been aware of it for a long time, during your marriage, any threat of her using it against you in a worst case scenario would look opportunistic at best by her. It would be very difficult to use that against you if you can prove that she lived in marital comfort with knowledge of it for years before deciding she wanted to split.

[Sara Jessica]

I've been watching this thread from afar. Lynn's first post gave rise to a lot of assumptions and left many questions unanswered. Some clarity has come over time and if the assumption is there that Lynn is in fact transsexual, then where is the shame in the following path...


I could never and would never turn my back on my wife. I will never decide to leave her because of my issues. If one day she finally decides she's had enough and wants a separation then I won't fight her. I might beg for a while but I want her to be happy and if I can't make her happy then she can decide when it's time to stop trying. I'm not a good giver-upper-er but I'm always willing to compromise...to an extent...And hopefully she won't leave!! But I know I won't ever initiate a breakup....and I wouldn't call it weakness or selfishness. I think it's part of my vows, isn't it?

I see a lot of my own situation in the above paragraph, short of some of the compromises of course.

Being TS is what it is. How we react, how we cope, how we choose to deal with it is a highly individual decision.


lynn...You are what you are...There are many transgendered people here and they will rightly say you can live a gender blended lifestyle if you are transgendered...one confusing thing is that some of them will insist they are transsexual...and somehow be ok with living what is basically a male life... thats fine, maybe they are, but they are not suffering the deep deep gender dyshporia that causes other people to give up on life unless there is a prospect for transition...unfortunately for them, if they are ts, they will know what i'm talking about someday.

Kaitlyn's point is well taken. And her and I have given each other much respect in that I truly believe she understands where I'm coming from and conversely, making the decisions that she has made which are essentially polar opposite of my own doesn't suggest that she harbored any less love or affection for all that she held dear. We have simply taken different paths.

Yet who's to say my own gender dysphoria is not as deep as hers was, or as deep as anyone else's? Or Lynn's for that matter? Or anyone else's??? The degree of gender dysphoria is certainly an element to a clinical diagnosis. Once we acknowledge it's existence as a given, what we do with it is an entirely different matter.

TRYING to stay true to all that one has built in their life doesn't make one less trans.

RISKING all in an attempt to be true to one's self doesn't make one more trans.

FINDING A MIDDLE GROUND between the two simply shows the complexities in making these decisions.

None of the above defines the human condition of being transsexual.

[stefan37]

Well hopefully we are working things out. It kinda feels like we are :-/

And btw everybody , I've been on hormones for almost two yrs.
anyway I can't even begin to tell you all how much I appreciate your input and guidance. Even though I'm pig headed stubborn and obnoxious I really thank you all. Even the mean ones. Especially the mean brutally honest ones :)

Maybe my comprehension is poor but I seem to missing something here. Lynn you say you do not want to give up your equipment and its relevant performance. You write as if your wife is finding out about your trans issues recently. If you are on hormones for 2 years I do not see how you could hide that fact from your wife and still perform sexually as a male. I may be wrong, but I do not get it.

[Marleena]

We're getting a lot of mileage out of this thread.:) I think if you were to take Lynn's gender issues out of the equation there is still a bad marriage and a therapist would have their hands full. I'm not going to place the blame on either party because both seem responsible. I hope they can sort it all out for the kids.

[ReineD]

I don't think it's a bad marriage. I just see two young people who love each other, are figuring things out, and are reacting to each other. The reactions on both sides are normal. Maybe if Lynn stops telling her wife that she's a woman, things might improve. It's hard to reach a middle of the road compromise when a spouse tells the other spouse they are not the gender they married, which implies eventual transition even if Lynn is adamant that she doesn't want this.

Lol. My SO in the beginning also told me that she had no plans to transition, and it took me about 3 years to believe her. Had we been married and had I been much younger, I might have tried to come up with rules too. :p

[jillleanne]

Good one, Misty! Put some color in it and it will be more obvious. TransitionerS :)

The trouble is, how to convince someone that just taking hormones with no intention of doing anything else is not transitioning?



Easy, we just keep repeating ourselves here, there, and everywhere. In my opinion, Lynn has a long ways to travel before tossing out the term 'ts' for describing herself. Could she be TS? Sure, but best to act TS daily before announcing it. I suspect one would find most TS people never transition completely with SRS, FFS, GRS, etc. for many different reasons, primarily finances. I do believe however, a TS person knows internally, who they are regardless of whether they ever fully transition. In any relationship, having a spouse under conditions as Lynn describes hers, certainly would not help matters regardless if one was a confused CD, or a non-op TS, or a TS headed for SRS.

[Lynnmorgan451]

I think if you were to take Lynn's gender issues out of the equation there is still a bad marriage

We really do love each other...we have a good marriage, the only problem is neither of us have been very mature about handling each other with the stuff we've been through together.. But the love is there...for each other and especially for our kids. We may not be mommy and daddy of the year but we definitely love our kids.

[Marleena]

That's great to hear Lynn! Best of luck to you.

[JohnH]

I don't think it's a bad marriage. I just see two young people who love each other, are figuring things out, and are reacting to each other. The reactions on both sides are normal. Maybe if Lynn stops telling her wife that she's a woman, things might improve. It's hard to reach a middle of the road compromise when a spouse tells the other spouse they are not the gender they married, which implies eventual transition even if Lynn is adamant that she doesn't want this.

Lol. My SO in the beginning also told me that she had no plans to transition, and it took me about 3 years to believe her. Had we been married and had I been much younger, I might have tried to come up with rules too. :p

I NEVER tell my wife I am a woman, even though I have been on M2F HRT for about 20 months, my body proportions are much more like a genetic woman than a typical man, and that I have a femme haircut and wear lipstick. The idea of my telling my wife that I am a woman would go over like a lead balloon.

John

[Badtranny]

I NEVER tell my wife I am a woman,

That's kind of the point of being a transsexual though isn't it? If you're not a woman struggling with a birth imposed male identity, then you're not transsexual.

Or are we just deciding that anyone on HRT is transsexual now?

[ReineD]

I NEVER tell my wife I am a woman, even though I have been on M2F HRT for about 20 months, my body proportions are much more like a genetic woman than a typical man, and that I have a femme haircut and wear lipstick.

John, by that comment I meant or course transsexuals should tell their spouses who they are. But, people should stop thinking they are women if they are happy living as men and with male names even if it is part of the time, even if they do wear lipstick. :)

[JohnH]

Guess what? My wife tells me all the time I am NOT a man so I don't have to claim I am a woman!

I interact much better with genetic women than I do with typical men.

I do not have the desire for SRS so I am content to have a male name.

John

[TeresaCD]

We really do love each other...we have a good marriage, the only problem is neither of us have been very mature about handling each other with the stuff we've been through together.. But the love is there...for each other and especially for our kids. We may not be mommy and daddy of the year but we definitely love our kids.

What defines bad, too?
My grandparents have been married 62 years, their marriage survived an early affair, abject poverty, all sorts of other things.
When they fight (and they do) you find shelter, but they are each other's best friends, and they have found a way.
None of us deserves parent of the year (no one you will meet).
Keep at it - this is how we mature, I reckon, by working through it.

[Sara Jessica]

John, by that comment I meant or course transsexuals should tell their spouses who they are. But, people should stop thinking they are women if they are happy living as men and with male names even if it is part of the time, even if they do wear lipstick. :)

I think this comment is more pointed as a response to John rather than a sweeping statement about those who are transsexual and happen to be married. Any happiness I can derive from my guy side does not take away from the fact that the woman whose existence to the core of my very being is undeniable. I guess the difference is that even though I fully acknowledge her place in my soul, I don't run around to my wife professing to be a woman. She already knows where my head is at, how she defines me or how she chooses to compartmentalize my nature (in a box under lock & key, no doubt) is up to her. She knows what TS means and doesn't need me to rub it in on a daily basis.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

That's kind of the point of being a transsexual though isn't it? If you're not a woman struggling with a birth imposed male identity, then you're not transsexual.

Or are we just deciding that anyone on HRT is transsexual now?

I agree...

what is the point of saying you area MTF transsexual if you don't say " I'm a woman"?

I can understand if you are in a relationship you might keep your mouth shut about it

[mary something]

this is interesting... John you seem to enjoy that your wife tells you that you are not a man, no judgement here, how does it make you feel?

[JohnH]

I think it's funny! I just laugh it off. :)
Sometime if I really want to blow her mind I ought to tell her,"Thanks, Honey".

John

[mary something]

haha, guess she wouldn't expect that. I don't understand the mixed gender presentation but you seem authentic and to enjoy being you and that's really cool. The feeling of being both and yet neither fully has caused me a lot of problems in my life and always made me want to be firmly on one side and not straddle the line. Maybe you would consider starting a thread sometime to share your thoughts on living a mixed gender life and the path you're on from your perspective? I feel like I have something to learn from you if you don't mind putting yourself out there ;)

[Lynnmorgan451]

I do believe however, a TS person knows internally, who they are regardless of whether they ever fully transition.

this is why I consider me ts...this is what I believe. and for the many obstacles between me and full transition, the number of them that I overcome or am clobbered by doesn't change who I am inside.

[mona lisa]

Be the embodiment of the worst stereotypes of a male you can be for her during the summer in terms of appearance.

Meaning, except on the days where you are allowed to let out your inner girl, do not shave, rarely bathe, be more slobbish, etc. (Heck, except on the days where you are allowed to shave, grow a full beard not just a moustache and sideburns!) If she asks about any of this or wonders why you are less clean and neat and all that, you need only say that those represent parts of your feminine side and you are going along with what your wife wants in suppressing that because you love her. Then see if she does not want to "reopen negotiations" before August!

[JohnH]

Yeh, Lynn, make sure you don't change your clothes either. You want them to be stiff enough so you can stand them in a corner. You also want to have that body odor that can be smelled one mile down wind. If your wife objects, just tell her you are being a macho man.

John

[Lynnmorgan451]

lolololololol!!! OMG I wish I could do that but I'm not sure if I'm capable! I tried not shaving at all and it lasted 3 days before I just couldn't stand it anymore. Thanks for the ideas though ;-)

[Kaitlyn Michele]

this is why I consider me ts...this is what I believe. and for the many obstacles between me and full transition, the number of them that I overcome or am clobbered by doesn't change who I am inside.

Right, so you can say "I am a woman"..yes??

now what you do about it and how you do it are totally different things and hopefully we can all do what's right for ourselves...

[JohnH]

lolololololol!!! OMG I wish I could do that but I'm not sure if I'm capable! I tried not shaving at all and it lasted 3 days before I just couldn't stand it anymore. Thanks for the ideas though ;-)

All right, shave only once every three days. At the end of the third day you will have that nice scruffy Yassar Arafat look. Maybe you will get used to the facial hair, and stretch the intervals out more and more. And when you get your beard don't trim it at all or even comb it.

Believe it or not I once had a beard. I did have to get used to the feeling of the beard, and for the first 3 days it felt stubbly. Then the whiskers grew out enough so the beard felt as natural as hair on the scalp.

Yes, make sure you drink beer and eat limburger cheese sandwiches with onions so you will burp and fart. You want your breath able to bubble paint and varnish.

Make sure you wear only the clothes you wear to paint and to change the oil in your car. You also want to wear the rattiest stinkiest gym shoes also.

If you play your cards right, maybe before August your wife will plead with you to shave not only your face, but your legs, arms, and chest. She might even surprise you with giving you a dress, heels, etc. just so you will get cleaned up and presentable.

John

[Badtranny]

If you play your cards right, maybe before August your wife will plead with you to shave not only your face, but your legs, arms, and chest. She might even surprise you with giving you a dress, heels, etc. just so you will get cleaned up and presentable.
John

Really? This is what our little forum is becoming?

Oh well, ...it was inevitable I suppose.

[JohnH]

Melissa, we are only giving one of our sisters some constructive advice!

John

[mary something]

lol, John your "constructive advice" sounds like worse punishment than having the computer taken out :)

[JohnH]

Oh, that's a temporary situation. Sometimes you have to fight fire with fire!

John

[mary something]

what you're describing sounds more like self-immolation to me, but each to his own lol

http://thoughtcatalog.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/pavss.jpeg?w=584

[Lynnmorgan451]

Omg ! Nice picture, Mary. I think you captured the moment. I'd feel better setting fire to my face than eating Limburger and onion sandwiches! Lol.
John, thank you for the advice :)
I'm not going to be able to do that but it's a funny thought to say the least!

My wife and I are working on working things out. So far the things I said I'd do as compromise have kinda showed her that I love her, and the compromises are easing more into my favor. My legs are hairy :-( but only the calf portions of my legs. Everything from the knee and north is smooth as silk. My "sideburns" are laughable. Since they never really grew much anyway, they just look like nothing unless you're right up on em. I keep em thin but PRESENT to satisfy the agreement. We negotiated away the mustache simply because it looks ridiculous and as soon as she saw it growing she told me to shave it off. Thank GOD. We are up and down emotionally though so we still get to each others throats, but just not as much. I really think I have a chance to make things work, at least for a while :)

[Nigella]

I honestly cannot believe some of the advice that has been given in this thread. :eek:

[kellycan27]

Antagonizing an already pissed off wife IMO is always a great idea! Go ahead and throw some more gas on the fire by showing your rebellious side. Afterwards come back and tell us how that panned out for ya. :heehee:

[mary something]

hmmm, married with 3 little kids isn't a picnic for anyone. Throw in a couple people who have a "passionate" side (I probably know a little too much about what that's like myself ;) ), and then top it off with both of you guys on estrogen, you're (Lynn) dealing with the wanting to "become" that you have to stifle...

sounds like you guys have a LOT going on. I admire you being able to compromise and do what you have to for your families sake Lynn, vent here whenever you need to

[Stephanie47]

Lynn, you need to stop this thread. My position really has not changed since my original comment (#12). I'm not a marriage therapist, but, nearing forty-two years of marriage does give some indication my wife and I have survived some degree of turmoil that was self generated or imposed by others.

There is a lot of childish behavior happening between you and your wife. There is a lack of constructive discussion. I would venture to say that neither of you know how to communicate. You and your wife need to see a marriage therapist to learn how to communicate without the infantile behavior. Is there a risk? Sure. Once you and your wife sit down and learn how to really communicate, you and her may realize what both of you want out of the other spouse. That may lead to termination of the marriage. The plus side? Maybe, an amicable parting of the ways is best for the children. Kids living in a hostile environment will feel the undercurrents.

As to your gender status. You need to see a therapist to sort out who you really may be. You owe that to yourself. You owe that to your wife. You owe that to your kids.

As to what's going on now. Wow! Smashing furniture and the computer? This is not solving anything. Whether you become hairless or not will not solve your problems. According to poll results in a story on my local TV station the majority of women prefer their husbands to be hairless over their bodies. Obviously being hairless does not define transgender status. If you want to grow boobs and dress en femme around your wife and kids, you're not going to find compromise with your wife. Yes, maybe for a short period of time. Long lasting? I put my money on NO!

Please, sort of where you want to be. And, at least get into counseling to learn how to effectively communicate without being destructive.

[JohnH]

Omg ! Nice picture, Mary. I think you captured the moment. I'd feel better setting fire to my face than eating Limburger and onion sandwiches! Lol.
John, thank you for the advice :)
I'm not going to be able to do that but it's a funny thought to say the least!


Don't knock the Limburger and onion sandwich. I have eaten several sandwiches of that kind. As a kid I never ate Limburger cheese because of its odor. About three years ago I tried Limburger cheese and it actually tasted good! Onions simply add to the delicious taste. :)

A buddy of mine dared me to make Limburger cheese nachos. It did stink up the house but the nachos did taste good.

[JohnH]

Guess what? My wife tells me all the time I am NOT a man so I don't have to claim I am a woman!

I interact much better with genetic women than I do with typical men.

I do not have the desire for SRS so I am content to have a male name.

John

Now my wife is starting to buy dresses for me. So I guess in her eyes I am really NOT a man. :)

John

[Rianna Humble]

This thread has got so far off topic that it is time to call it a night.

Rianna Humble
Moderator, Transsexual Forums