Are transsexuals broken?

[Kathryn Martin]

Yesterday, somewhere else a question arose whether transsexuals are "broken".

There were very strong opinions expressed that transsexuals are not broken but rather form a part of some spectrum or continuum ranging from one gender to the other and are therefore simply a variance within biological expression.
People felt very strongly that they were not "broken" and that using such a term contributed to the marginalization and dehumanization of transsexuals. Others equated "broken" with "wrong". This gave me pause to consider this in context. You see I actually believe that being transsexual means that you are "broken". I mean this in the following sense. This does not apply to gender variant persons.

Transsexualism is the presence of primary and secondary sex markers that do not match the self experienced body image (see V S Ramachandran 2007 Occurrence of phantom genitalia after gender
reassignment surgery). We don't suffer from GID or more recently re-termed GD but in some cases from situational depression associated with this disparity. That is why surgery and hormones "fixes" the condition. Our condition is outside any spectrum or continuum of gender variance, because transsexuals do not have a variance in their gender which for them is essentially defined by the gender binary (with each pole of the binary encompassing a varied expression that is still considered within norms.) In this sense transsexuals are "broken" or suffer from a medical condition which has a medical resolution to it.

Gender Variance is a culture spawned psychiatric condition that is rooted in non-conformance to cultural norms surrounding gender and it's societal rejection.

Cultural acceptance of gender non-conforming behavior does nothing for transsexuals in terms of their underlying condition.

Maybe we can discuss this with resorting to thread closure.

[LeaP]

I agree with your usage of the word "broken." I agree with it even considering that it is a natural variation that appears with some frequency. That is, that transsexuals are "broken," "not right," "wrong" even, in the same sense as someone who is born with a cleft palate. They are not mentally disordered, less than, or psychologically damaged apart from whatever life may have inflicted by way of coping and secondary effects such as the depression you mention. I regard transsexualism as an intersexed condition.

Unfortunately, clarity on this isn't helped by the fact that many trans people ARE damaged and broken in a variety of ways not directly caused by being transsexual. Repression, suppression, rejection and ridicule, abuse, and discrimination produce a lot of human wreckage. All unnecessary.

Finally, there is nothing about corrective surgery (SRS) that the average cisgendered person does not regard as extreme. This alone leads many to think that transsexuals MUST be disordered.

[Lynnmorgan451]

When I hear this "broken" talk it makes me wonder why we consider ourselves this way....just thinking like its a cultural norm to express ones birth gender is "right" but it's only been "wrong" to be considered transsexual for a short time...transsexuals in history were considered Demi gods and healers in various cultures..since I really have no idea what I'm talking about I will share a link I found that makes me feel just a wee bit better than I did before I read it..

http://www.transsexual.org/cherish.html

Transsexuals IMO who seek out total transformation are in a way in denial that they were intended by Whomever created them to be both and neither. To express both or choose not to express either, or one or the other. This denial is just one more problem created by society that forces us unique and exotic beings to be a part of that binary and get the hell outta the middle!! Nobody can be both! Pick a side!!

I choose both....but a girly both because I definitely have external organs but I definitely want to present female. And I don't like needles or pain or anything else that goes along with surgery....stuff scares me.....

[Angela Campbell]

Broken....? I don't know. Wounded...?...certainly.

[celeste26]

On the other hand, if there is nothing broken then why even offer a fix?? Ignoring of course our society's penchant for abusing anyone who is slightly different. Why isn't a female gendered male a perfectly valid expression without the need for surgery? (yeah a heresy here I'll bet)

[Michelle.M]

When I hear this "broken" talk it makes me wonder why we consider ourselves this way....

Well, I am definitely not part of that particular "we". I don't consider myself (nor any other TS) broken. I'm just fine. All I needed was a little surgery to set some things right that were amiss.


Transsexuals IMO who seek out total transformation are in a way in denial that they were intended by Whomever created them to be both and neither. To express both or choose not to express either, or one or the other.

I was not interested in transformation, but in transition. And I'm sorry that you think that everyone who doesn't believe as you do, that we all ought to be genderfluid, is in denial. Glad you're not MY therapist!


I choose both....but a girly both because I definitely have external organs but I definitely want to present female. And I don't like needles or pain or anything else that goes along with surgery....stuff scares me.....

Suit yourself. But that doesn't make everyone else in denial.

[Angela Campbell]

"Transsexuals IMO who seek out total transformation are in a way in denial that they were intended by Whomever created them to be both and neither. To express both or choose not to express either, or one or the other."


Whoever created us also gave us the drive to change ourselves, was that not also intentional? Maybe we were meant to work at correcting this.

[Frances]

Transsexuals IMO who seek out total transformation are in a way in denial that they were intended by Whomever created them to be both and neither. To express both or choose not to express either, or one or the other. This denial is just one more problem created by society that forces us unique and exotic beings to be a part of that binary and get the hell outta the middle!! Nobody can be both! Pick a side!!

I choose both....but a girly both because I definitely have external organs but I definitely want to present female. And I don't like needles or pain or anything else that goes along with surgery....stuff scares me.....


Please define "total transformation." Also, you talk about not displeasing some creator, and then state later that you are afraid of surgery. You may have all sorts of reasons for staying in between, but please don't infer our motives for "picking a side."

[stefan37]

I understand what you are trying to say Kathryn. I do not consider myself broken, however reading your post carefully I can see where you are coming from. I would disagree about situational depression. I have only suffered depression once that I know and at the time I did not know I was depressed and it had nothing to do with gender. I have suffered severe anxiety that was paralyzing at times. HRT so far has provided relief from severe anxiety. I also disagree that societal acceptance of gender variance does nothing for transsexuals condition. greater societal acceptance of gender variance would certainly make it easier for those that are transsexual to seek help sooner and also make it easier to ease fears of transition.

I could probably live a genderfluid life, but have found it very difficult to live in the middle. I am in the process of active transition and will progress as rapidly as nature and resources permit.

I wonder Lynn how your personal situation trying to save your marriage influences your views on transsexualism and gender fluidity.

[kellycan27]

Transsexuals IMO who seek out total transformation are in a way in denial.

I choose both....but a girly both because I definitely have external organs but I definitely want to present female. And I don't like needles or pain or anything else that goes along with surgery....stuff scares me.....

Your take on the fully transitioned ( surgery etc) is interesting. When you chose " both" was it by circumstance or design? Something that you wanted or something you had to settle for because of your circumstances. Are the transitioned really in denial or are you?

[Badtranny]

Transsexuals IMO who seek out total transformation are in a way in denial This denial is just one more problem created by society that forces us unique and exotic beings to be a part of that binary and get the hell outta the middle!! Nobody can be both! Pick a side!!.

Really? You're making judgments about people that have risked everything just to be free of pretension. Nothing personal but the words of someone who hasn't even begun the work of transition mean nothing or less to the people who experience the slings and arrows of our outrageous decision every single day.

Perhaps when you are no longer prohibited from shaving your face, you may be more amenable to picking a side.


Kathryn, I happen to agree with you all the way on this one. I do feel broken and I always have. I live an authentic life now, and I can see a time when I will be largely stealth, but I will always have been born a man. My spirit was born broken and a lifetime of trying to reconcile my issues has broken me emotionally. I will never be a normal person. I will never know the feeling of being CIS. I was an outsider as a male, and now I'm an outsider for an entirely different reason.

I am and have always been a misfit toy. I have learned to find happiness, but that doesn't mean I'm not broken. Though, this is the only way I know.

[KellyJameson]

I strongly agree with Lea that it is a intersexed condition and for me the binary is an aspect of nature, not a creation of humankind. In my opinion there is no binary outside of nature.

Reproduction is the reason for two sexes and the female and male brain evolved accordingly along these lines and this has huge implications for the experience of transsexuality.

The binary is reproduction but reproduction results in a certain psychological state of being independant of the body so the brain has a binary just as the body does for reproductive purposes.

Each sex has certain psychological abilities that are more prevalent in one over the other and each sex because of the structure of the brain, experiences and perceives of reality that are in ways unique to their sex.

For mammals the female brain is the template that is changed into male by the actions of hormones, particularly testosterone.

In my opinion something disrupts this process in the womb for transsexuals so the brain is not masculinized but the body does change enough to be considered male but even the body will show evidence even though it varies from person to person. The body will show intersexed markers.

Some external markers may be digit ratio, reverse hair whorl, proponderance of left handedness,higher incidence of genital deformity such as Peyronie's disease and Hypospadias, insulin insensitivity,ect... but there are many significant statistical variations that consistantly show up for transsexuals showing a biological basis for gender dysphoria.

Every day more evidence is accumulating showing that transsexuals have brain structures similar to females.

This is why you can spot it in childhood because it affects how children play with each other. Their childhood preferences such as avoiding boys and preferring to play with "other girls" and even toy selection or the way toys are used. It has a theme or common thread to it even though each story is unique

I have felt broken because society and my body pushed me into impossible circumstances for my brain to cope with from my earliest memories all the way up until I understood the problem and stopped trying to be what I am not according to others and started being what I am according to me.

Many of the psychological problems of those born with "genital deformities" so were surgically assigned female at birth because it is easier to digg a hole than build a pole (this is the reasoning and words of the medical community) are exactly the same for transsexuals.

This is why the medical community is finally waking up and not assigning gender through surgery anymore. They realize gender takes place in the brain not the body.

The reason I identify as female is because I find me in other females but not 98% of the men I have ever met.

My brain works like a females and I look at men and wonder what planet they come from and it has been this way since I was two or three years old. I like them but have known that I'm not one of them and they are not one of me.

This is something fundamental to who I am, it goes deep within me and cannot be altered by my will power.

In my opinion self experienced body image is biologically determined by the binary of the sexes as an expression of nature for reproductive purposes that dictates the physical structure and capacities of the female brain versus the male brain.

You adopt a female identity because your brain is female and you find yourself in other females so identify with them and know yourself through girls (woman) but not boys (men).

This can result in feeling broken on a social level because you are forced outside of society because we enter society through our bodies. The physical body does not reflect how you know yourself to be and you cannot live through it without experiencing discomfort so you are always uneasy in your own body.

I have always lived with the sensation that I'm living outside my body and looking at it from another persons perspective like an observer alongside or from above. It is a form of being constantly self conscious about the physical self but once my body made sense to my mind by changing it I stopped feeling self conscious and watching myself from outside myself.

Being constantly self consciuous like this was hugely stressful and exhausting and nothing I tried would stop it until I physically changed my body and than I relaxed.

The hormones the body produces will not be suitable for the brain structure because the brain and hormones are diametrically opposed to each other so you are being fueled by that which makes you act against your natural tendencies born from the structure of your brain so you experience testosterone anxiety and mental confusion.

And in my opinion in some way on some level it will screw with your sexuality for the same reason the hormones do not make sense to the brain.

For me being transsexual made everything about the world "opposite" how it should be. Everything was "backwards" , "off" , "out of sync", "square peg round hole" , ect..

The brain and body need to be aligned in all things born out of reproduction, which is just about everything in society because culture came out of nature.

[Michelle.M]

I live an authentic life now, and I can see a time when I will be largely stealth

Not to derail the thread, but it's interesting that you might progress toward stealth rather than away. This probably only catches my attention because I seem to be heading toward a more open and out life than the stealth life I have lived up until now.

I digress. Probably a better topic for another thread.

[Kathryn Martin]

Transsexuals IMO who seek out total transformation are in a way in denial that they were intended by Whomever created them to be both and neither. To express both or choose not to express either, or one or the other. This denial is just one more problem created by society that forces us unique and exotic beings to be a part of that binary and get the hell outta the middle!! Nobody can be both! Pick a side!!

I choose both....but a girly both because I definitely have external organs but I definitely want to present female. And I don't like needles or pain or anything else that goes along with surgery....stuff scares me.....

So just to get this right transsexuals who transition are in denial of the intentions of their creator, while society forces them to be men or women. You are both a man and a woman, but a girly one with an external organ who wants to dress like a girl while hating needles, pain or anything else that goes with surgery. Oh honey you should thank your creator that you are not a girl.


Not to derail the thread, but it's interesting that you might progress toward stealth rather than away.

Not a derail in my view at all but rather a function of being healed or fixed if you will. This is what happens after you have laid the complete foundation through full transition. As integration and I mean real integration happens we submerge into a normal life. Our medical history is no longer witnessed and our environment will mirror back our true nature. It is something that happens as a result of healing not something that we do.

[stefan37]

I highly doubt it will be possible for me to be stealth as I am transitioning in the town I have lived in for 25 years. I have my own business and will be transitioning in place and view of my employees, clients, etc. I do have hope that some day I will be able to assimilate into society or as Kathryn put it integration, and those that do not know me now will not know different.

[kellycan27]

Kathryn
You nailed it!
Sorry I just don't get the advantages of being " out and proud". I am not knocking it I just get why being seen as a transsexual is appealing to some.

[JamiLee]

It may just be me, but I don't want to be seen as a transexual, therefore I'm not broken. I'm a woman, period. I'd be way happier being seen as a woman, just like any of the other woman out there. I guess it's why the T on LGBT is so important to me. Lol, the LG & B will be happy with everyone knowing who they are, but I feel like the T want's to live in anonymity. This anonymity makes it hard to voice our support for our brothers and sisters, but being apart of a larger group lets us voice our support to one another while trying to be the gender we want. I hope that makes sense.

[LeaP]

Transsexuals IMO who seek out total transformation are in a way in denial that they were intended by Whomever created them to be both and neither. To express both or choose not to express either, or one or the other.

You know, I hate this BS line more all the time. First of all, who are you to declare the mind, will, and intentions of God? (Or "Whomever") Especially as it pertains to someone else? Second, this never applies to anything else, like people born with heart defects, spina bifida, degenerative conditions, bad eyesight, or a million other things. After all, isn't it evident that God intended them to die young, be in pain, not see, or whatever Whomever baked into their special design?

But because you've decided that "being both" is God's will, you're entitled to criticize everyone else? What if *I* decide that it's evident that you are supposed to be a guy, that it is YOU who are violating Whomever's will? Moreover, what are you doing wearing clothes? Weren't you born naked? And don't give me Adam and Eve - God gave THEM skins, not polyester.

This isn't the religion forum. Arguments from design are religious arguments. If you have anything rational to add, please do.

[Badtranny]

As integration and I mean real integration happens we submerge into a normal life. Our medical history is no longer witnessed and our environment will mirror back our true nature. It is something that happens as a result of healing not something that we do.

Yes I'm on-board with that but I should clarify that I see a time when I will have the ability to LOOK stealth. I don't see actually being stealth in my future because I did transition in place and everybody in my industry knows I used to be a dude. I also have 40+ years of life as a dude behind me, so unless I move across the country, there will always be somebody around who "knows".

More important for me is not being 'read'. Ever.

I know I'm broken, I just don't want the cracks to show.

[Angela Campbell]

Are transexuals broken? Dunno, a lot are broke with the costs of HRT, therapists, SRS, loss of employment.....

[Marleena]

@ Lynn, I don't know how you came up with the idea that a postop (now woman) could be in denial? It makes no sense at all. I think you need to educate yourself about what being a transsexual is all about. Google is your friend.

[KatieTaylorTX]

Good evening. It is odd that you used the term "Wrong" as well as "Broken*. I have used the term "Wrong" when describing myself for many years. I believe that those two terms, while speaking from a biological point of view, may not reflect a true definition of being TG. Now, with THAT being said, we are more than just cells, we are human beings who as sad as this may sound, don't truly have a "Fix" IMHO. Sure, HRT and SRS are in my opinion, band-aids at best. Societal acceptance for "Our Kind" is limited at best. It is sad really, how many TGs are "Forced" into the sex industry, or worse, commit the most agreegious of things...suicide. Statistics don't lie. Of course we suffer from depression... how could we not? Humans want/need affection. It has been proven in apes that ones deprived of touching and being touched by other monkies become deeply depressed. Why would we think we are any different? So, are we "Broken" or "Wrong" the answer lies in the hands of the people that define us... and at this point, most in society feel we are indeed "Broken" or "Wrong", so that is right or wrongly, what we are saddled with. I for one, cannot "Fix" society... even though my one wish, is that I had been born "Right" either way, male or female.

[Lynnmorgan451]

Aren't we all individuals here? On different paths with similar circumstances? I didn't intend to piss anyone off. If what I said makes you angry then it's probably not the only thing you've ever heard that drums up anger in your heart. I wasn't trying to compete for trannyist I was just making an observation from my own individual unique perspective based on the information I have collected. I am on a path of transition that may. Just end short of getting parts removed. But the me of today is definitely not exactly the same as the me of yesterday or tomorrow. Was just saying the link I posted inspired a thought that made me a little more comfortable with who and what I am. Wasn't making judgements. Who am I to judge anyone!?! Pleeez

[mary something]

no, we're not broken. Aside from all the excellent philosophical reasons given by the other posters let's remember that it is a subjective thing, a judgement. All it takes to end that accusation is to show that you're clearly not broken.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

when i read the word broken in the other post...i projected meaning into it...i would be very curious to know what she meant by "broken"...specifically.
it could have been a much more casual use of the word than i felt..

to me, when a cisgender person calls a ts person "broken" they are not interested in scientific facts or whether this is a medical condition....they don't care why..and in that word they are not thinking about what you do about it..
there is no fix.. it doesnt matter if we transition or not..... at least not as it relates to the idea of thinking we are broken.....
its not that your vagina is broken because its shaped like a penis...its that by your very nature you are broken, you are a worse person that those that arent broken...
..and whether you fix it or not doesnt change the wrongness of you..

Pls dont get me wrong.. i think women that transition are amazing testaments to the strength of the human spirit..we stand up and face a world that considers us broken, each in our own way..passing or not..
I think women that dont transition for whatever reason are also strong in their own way, and I do not envy the daily struggle because I endured it for 40+ years..its amazing that we can function at any level at all, yet many of us raise families and fill our lives with accomplishments

.. i'm saying this is how we are internalized by a person that views us as broken..

I enjoy passing priviledge, which amazes me...thank you dr meltzer, you are a fricking genius.....so i don't ever feel the sting of this anymore...but i don't see how that's relevant to the concept of broken..the idea that my past is no longer visible others is simply a boon to my own life quality..people that view transsexuals as broken would say the same of me...

+++++
lynn I for one am not pissed, i read your comments with interest and i dont think you are judging others as much as you are simply struggling.... some of the things you are saying from the heart are not coming through loud and clear and i think you are actually in denial of how this is all going to end up for you and yours..ie ..not well...
people that have successfully transitioned and live as women are not trying be the trannyist...but they are the ones that are living the TRUEST to their nature... and that's the nature the creator gave us...if its true that a person is bi-gendered or feels fluidity in their gender, that is their nature

it seems to me that living true to your own nature , whatever that is, is the best chance each of us has for the highest quality of life...this is why relationships prior to resolving the gender issue are so difficult...how can you find love and feel love if you are not being true to your nature...how can you feel love from someone that feels your nature is broken?

[arbon]

I don't know if broken is the best word but definitely "or suffer from a medical condition which has a medical resolution to it." as you also stated it in the op is the way I feel about.

[melissaK]

OK Kathryn, I’ll come out and play. And I'm sure I can say in 15,000 words what some like Arbon and Mary Something said just as well in far fewer words.

This thread is tragic. I’m not buying that I am “broken,” and I don’t think anyone should. I wrote my opposition to the idea in the thread in Safe Haven that covered this.

Kathryn’s position makes no sense to me - true TS are born broken and then can be healed? Everyone else too bad soo sad??

Lea’s comment it’s like being born with a cleft palate? My nephew is a terrific kid and he wasn’t born broken. He was born with genetic variation that makes life difficult. Surgery helped, but he still has speaking issues. So he’s still broken???

Bad Tranny feels she’s always been broken. Not just that she felt different, but broken? Sweetie . . . . that’s sad.

I was born destined to be “me” - and I’ll concede society “broke my spirit” to be “me” and I have spent my life trying to live as not “me.” But they didn’t break “me,” and I wasn’t born “broken.”

I think you who endorse the “broken” concept, all obfuscate genetic differences and conditions by imposing a value judgment on them. You label the worth of the variation when you label it as being “broken.”

Where will you stop? My red hair is a genetic mutation that’s pretty rare, even unheard of in some parts of the world, only 1-2% of all people have it worldwide. It brings derision upon me, people point at me, kids taunted me, disgusting slang expressions are hurled at me in the work place. If I hate my hair, if I think its not right, will you label it as a sign I’m broken? Does Lady Clairol fix me?

The fact you can perform some cosmetic surgery (SRS, BA, FFS, Electrolosis) and chemical alterations (HRT) on one variant type of person we call TS such that the person feels better, does not mean you are “fixing” anything. It’s just treating a condition until they fell better. There’s nothing wrong with making a person feel better, but its wrong to say they were broken.

The science of living things is moving entirely to genetics, and, genetics interaction with environment. Genetic make-up is a condition. It doesn’t need to be judged as “broken” or “unbroken,” it is just something that is. The current DSM is brand new, and it’s obsolete already and is being criticized as a tool that organizes based upon subjective variation from “normal”, not upon objective scientific criteria.


“The creators of the D.S.M. in the 1960s and ’70s “were real heroes at the time,” said Dr. Steven E. Hyman, a psychiatrist and neuroscientist at the Broad Institute and a former director at the National Institute of Mental Health. “They chose a model in which all psychiatric illnesses were represented as categories discontinuous with ‘normal.’ But this is totally wrong in a way they couldn’t have imagined. So in fact what they produced was an absolute scientific nightmare. Many people who get one diagnosis get five diagnoses, but they don’t have five diseases — they have one underlying condition.”

Dr. Hyman, Dr. Insel and other experts said they hoped that the science of psychiatry would follow the direction of cancer research, which is moving from classifying tumors by where they occur in the body to characterizing them by their genetic and molecular signatures.

Dr. Insel started a federal project called Research Domain Criteria, or RDoC, which he highlighted in a blog post last week. Dr. Insel said in the blog that the National Institute of Mental Health would be “reorienting its research away from D.S.M. categories” because “patients with mental disorders deserve better.” (From a NY TIMES article 5/6/13)

I fight hard to overcome societies marginalization of “me” for being “different” and my life is tangled in a web of relationships with those who follow all of societies rules, and judge me on my variance from “normal.” But I will do all that I can to be “me.”

I will not willingly wear a label, saying I am “broken.” Scarlett Letters on adulterers, Yellow Stars of David on Jewish, nothing much good comes from branding those who are different. I’ll not be branded as “broken.”

[Kathryn Martin]

Misty, I transitioned in place, live in the same community and do the same work than before. What is happening now though is that the relevance of having been afflicted with transsexualism fades and I am witnessed for who I am. What was broken is finally put together the right way.

The first most visceral reaction to being told that you are broken is rejection or some form of denial that this would be the case. It comes from all of the negative connotations around the word broken. But for me understanding my own pathology and realizing that I was afflicted (broken) by being born with the wrong reproductive configuration and genitals was huge. It offered a way to heal myself. What transsexuals are afflicted with and thus experience is not a normal biological variation, it is rather an exception to that norm. Like Lissa's nephew who through surgery and treatment has achieved normalcy (albeit with speaking issues remaining) I have achieved normalcy, that is overcome my pathology, although I still am incapable of menstruating or bearing children. I am healed.

Lissa, I totally disagree with your comment that this imposes a value judgement on anyone else. You attack my views because you suspect that somehow I value others less because they are in my view not transsexual. Nothing could be further from the truth. First of all I consider myself (transsexual) as afflicted (broken) and the conditions under which I (transsexual) can be healed. I also state that others (gender variant) experience their distress because the culture bound notions around variations in expression do not permit them to live full lives resulting in deep psychological distress. I do not say so sad. Because I am not gender variant, how can I talk about what would heal the gender variant. But overcoming marginalization and dehumanization is certainly one of them. I am well aware that the NIMH has moved away from the DSM which we all know is deeply flawed. Insel's statement in this regard is very enlightening because it in fact reveals the quackery in psychiatric and psychological research that exists today. The model they are moving towards is a much better model because it will put real dollars behind the much needed research into all psychiatric conditions.

I don't wear a label that says I am broken. In fact, thankfully that label is almost gone, as I integrate and submerge into normalcy.

What I find fascinating is the attempt to parley what we suffer from and what gender variant suffer from into a "normal" variation of human existence. There is a difference between the sexes not from a cultural or political perspective but certainly from biological perspective. So if your brain is organized one way and your reproductive system another way then that is not normal. It is broken. If someone says to me "you are broken" and I say "no, but I am not, I am just a normal variation of human existence" then I will have closed the door on what it might take to heal what I am afflicted with. Your nephew had surgery because his cleft palate needed to be fixed for all kinds of reasons not the least of which was his survival both physically, socially and emotionally. Declaring ourselves normal in our affliction removes the need for treatment both literally and figuratively to address our problem. If I answer "yes" to the question however, then the conversation turns to what can be done to help and assist in me overcoming the affliction.


The fact you can perform some cosmetic surgery (SRS, BA, FFS, Electrolosis) and chemical alterations (HRT) on one variant type of person we call TS such that the person feels better, does not mean you are “fixing” anything.This statement tells every 15 -20 year old transsexual that they can never be whole. It is the epitome of hopelessness. You can never be healed from your affliction and no matter what you do you will always be a man or a woman according to your birth sex. It condemns every transsexual including me to remain defective for the rest of our lives. I can "feel" better but I will always be what I was born as. It is the most devastating statement I could imagine.

PS. Just to clarify I meant not only young transsexuals, but those are the ones I am really concerned about.

[STACY B]

You tell um Kathryn ,,, I couldn't have said it Better myself ,, If its Broke fix it ,, If it ain't broke don't fix it ,, Some of us Need fixing ,,lol,,,

[Lynnmorgan451]

@ Lynn, I don't know how you came up with the idea that a postop (now woman) could be in denial? It makes no sense at all. I think you need to educate yourself about what being a transsexual is all about. Google is your friend.

Because I believe in purpose...I think there is a reason we are like this...is that stupid? I think that the reason goes beyond living a depressing life until they day you get your wang cut off, just to blend back into society......call me whatever you wanna call me but I THINK stuff.......and I'm not BROKEN

[Angela Campbell]

OK so if I am broken what is broke. Is it my brain because it doesn't match my body? Is it because my body formed differently than the brain? Is there something else that is broken that does not allow me to just accept that the two do not match? Is this just the result of some chemical imbalance inside of my Mothers body while I was being formed? Is it just a mental condition I have allowed to grow? Maybe my creator just put me here to be entertainment for everyone else. Maybe I was meant to learn from the struggle.

Either way it is what it is and it is my lot to find a way to live a life of some kind. I don't want to be "more tranny" than you. I don't want to be a tranny at all. I am though and I am the only one who can deal with it. Is something really broken if it was designed that way?

[mary something]

Kathryn you make some excellent points, I agree with what you say with a few subtle differences. We live in a broken world, it's a repeatable observation that entropy and disorder always increases. Every person has challenges to overcome in this life, we are lucky to know what our challenge is. We are no more broken than anyone else, I would argue even less so. Please remember that nature loves variation, our society doesn't.

We are intrinsically social animals, we NEED social interaction that affirms us. Biologically we are primates and have evolved to live in communities with each other with distinct roles given to different members. Babies in orphanages that don't receive adequate social contact with their caregivers suffer severe damage to their psyche. Transsexuals who are assigned to a gender role that is incompatible with their nature also face a lack of social interaction that affirms us. The fact that you were able to identify your problem, determine what you needed to feel comfortable in a new gender role that was true to you, and then implement that plan in a society as binary as ours is only proof to me how NOT broken you are.

[Michelle.M]

I'm not buying that I am “broken,” and I don’t think anyone should.

I couldn't agree more, and I think your post was very eloquent.


What is happening now though is that the relevance of having been afflicted with transsexualism fades and I am witnessed for who I am. What was broken is finally put together the right way.

While I celebrate the changes that have brought you wholeness I simply cannot support the notion of transsexualism as an "affliction".

In the words of that great philosopher Popeye "I am what I am." I was born this way, but just because I was born as part of that different minority (0.25 - 1% of the population), and by that definition different, that doesn't mean I am broken. Nor am I afflicted, sick, damaged, diseased nor any of those other things that make me a tragic figure subject to public ridicule, pity and scorn.

I am what I am. My gender dissonance is part of what makes me what I am, and I don't consider myself so much "gender dysphoric" as much as I am "gender gifted".

Sure, trans life is tough, but it's not always a hardship. Quite often it's an adventure and even at times it's a lot of fun to be me. That's the way it's been ever since I rejected the idea of Gender Dysphoria as being an affliction and learned to celebrate the unique life God gave me.

[Marleena]

Lynn I did not call you anything nor did I question you on anything other than that comment about postop denial. That sounded like something a detractor or cisgendered person would say. So that's why I suggested reading up on this. I do not challenge anybody to prove they're TS and I take people at face value. I do not push people to do anything more than they need to do to deal with their GD. I don't want to derail Kathryn's thread it's a good one.

Back to the topic...

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Lynn, i'm having trouble getting what you are saying
that there is no point for a ts person to transition? when you say you believe in purpose, what do you mean?

i look at purpose as part of our fundamental nature...how and why was I made...i actually feel i fulfilled my purpose partially through transition..i was lucky to have a good family, accomplish alot...i have a very strong and positive sense of purpose.

++++++

MelissaK and Michelle.M altho my comments may seem otherwise, i totally agree with you...

My comments are specifically about people that beleive we are broken...including kathryn's comments...i can understand why a transsexual women might view it this way..but i dont believe the concept applies

...in an attempt to make transition THE solution, it can be helpful to apply a paradigm of its broken so fix it...but it plays right into society's hands

broken is a word that others use about us... there are other words that are different but similar including defective/wrong/less

Is our situation a birth defect? if it is does that mean we are broken? and that we are fixed at some point??

i dont buy it..The idea does not resonate with me at all and it triggers anger...and i transitioned, and i experienced all the physical and emotional changes, and i experience living freely and easily...and i just don't get it.... i do feel sometimes sad that i felt so bad for so long...i feel sad for people that had to deal with this....i especially feel bad for people that live against their nature for so long and fight and fight..often coming up with endless rationalizations....those are all simply quality of life issues that every human being faces all the time..

Some people truly are by their nature broken, but cisgender people are simply the vast majority, and we are a tiny minority...nothing about that means broken...evil people are broken..narcissists are broken...sociopaths are broken...lawyers are broken....oops...:devil:

I prefer to look at it this way..

we are not broken...we do have a quality of life problem...but it has nothing to do with our worth ..it is not a defect...its a problem...we cope with it...

Our "nature" is that we are women, ...and so we try to live our best quality of life, and for many of us that includes transition..its a great solution ...i'd say its the best solution but not the only one

living against your nature causes distress.
those of us that live congruent with our nature espouse the benefits, it can be a rough trade off...but its worth it to us..

and those that dont will raise their own reasons and make their own trade offs..

neither of us are broken...its totally wrong to say that because i transitioned i am "fixed" and because lynn hasnt she is not...

[LeaP]

Lea’s comment it’s like being born with a cleft palate? My nephew is a terrific kid and he wasn’t born broken. He was born with genetic variation that makes life difficult. Surgery helped, but he still has speaking issues. So he’s still broken???

The one thing I just can't escape is that I have been, and am, afflicted. Even with so many of my life-long issues with depression, social anxiety, dissociation, etc. now under control because of HRT (primarily), I still feel the mind/body disconnect. More so, in fact. Though the genetic and hormonal variations that produce this are statistically predictable, the fact that the condition puts me at such tension within myself keeps it out of the "normal" category.

As for whether or not it is (also) a gift, in some ways I agree that it is. It is part of me and I would not wish to be a different person - certainly not male. Researchers have pointed out the incidence of relatively higher intelligence and creativity in the trans population. So it does seem that the condition can confer some benefits, too.

'Lissa, I'm sorry, but I do not regard a cleft palate as a simple genetic variation. It can be a profound disability, depending on severity, of course. And if speech is an ongoing issue, then so is the affliction. While one can be similarly, severely afflicted by transsexualism (high intensity), my comparison was inexact. That said, though GD or the body/mind disconnect can be healed by SRS, there are many ways in which some post-ops continue to be afflicted - and I mean from within, as a symptom of the condition and not a secondary consequence. One example the inability to bear children.

[Lynnmorgan451]

I wasn't really saying there's no point to transition. I was jut saying we were obviously not born with female bodies and unlike other men, we desire them. Or, we were born with more feminine physical qualities and question why. I was just raising the question as to why we were made this way in the first place? It gives me the warm tinglies to wonder for what purpose was I made this way. I don't see myself as the society sees me. Like a diseased freak or something. I see us and myself as great Devine beings of understanding. We have the power to heal through understanding without biased gender based stereotypical constraint. The whole transition isn't necessarily the cure. Being ok with what you are is the cure, no matter how far into transition you feel you need to go.

[Anne2345]

In describing myself in the past, I have used the word "broken" on more than one occasion. I neither shy away from the word, nor back away from it now.

I do believe, though, that I have used the word "wrong" more frequently and often as a self-descriptor in the context of being transsexual. Simply stated, I was born "wrong."

Regardless, I have spent much time, energy, and resources in "fixing" myself, and righting the wrongness of my existence. And I shall continue to spend time, energy, and resources in the future until such time that I am no longer "wrong."

However, I see no specific reason or divine purpose in being born this way (wrong). Rather, I view being born this way as pure, random happenstance. Much in the same way my younger sister is dying from a very rare form of cancer that about only 15,000 people in the U.S. are cursed with. She didn't ask for it, and she did nothing to deserve it or put herself at increased risk for it. It just happened for no good reason or purpose whatsoever. None at all.

I mean, to what end does that serve her? When she drops dead any day or week now, to what purpose shall my two and a half year old niece be left motherless?

I see no specific purpose in being born wrong or broken. In such cases, I see only bad luck of the draw.

Although true I have learned much about myself that I probably would not have but for being transsexual, I do not necessarily view that as a positive that outweighs all of the negatives. There are, after all, in at least my opinion as it applies to me, a shit-ton of negatives.

Even more, and perhaps this is more a personal failing than anything, just simply learning to "be ok" with myself is not enough. I need more than my own personal acceptance of self will grant. I need to change my body. I need to change my internal chemistry. I need assistance from external sources to help these needs become reality. No amount of personal acceptance and just being ok with myself is going to change the fact that I have a dude body complete with a penis and testicles. No amount of personal acceptance, in and of itself, will change how the world views me. No amount of personal acceptance, in and of itself, will change the sense of wrongness I feel to my absolute inner core being.

As such, IMO, there is no specific purpose to any of this. All there is is random circumstance. But I'm good with that, in so far as I am engaging in those things I believe necessary that will serve to improve my own personal set of circumstances in the future.

In the meantime, I am wrong, despite how right I otherwise feel I am.

[arbon]

I see us and myself as great Devine beings of understanding. We have the power to heal through understanding without biased gender based stereotypical constraint. The whole transition isn't necessarily the cure. Being ok with what you are is the cure, no matter how far into transition you feel you need to go.

If I was okay with the way I was I would not need to transition. There would be no reason to because there would be no problem. But the thing is I was NOT okay with it, nor could I ever be. What I was made me sick. Spirituality, religion, self help, therapy, drinking, praying for acceptance, marriage did not work.

The solution to the problem is actually very simple - living as a woman instead of as a man (being honest and not lying about who I am to myself or anyone else), hormones, hair removal, and surgery if I can get there - all contribute to peace in my life. That is the solution for me.

There is nothing that is any more or less divine about us a group then anyone else.

[melissaK]

Fascinating thread. Still tragic. The resistance to acceptance of genetic variation in the species as nothing more than that. Maybe there's a gene that makes you want to measure yourself against what others tell you is normal . . .

And Kathryn, Sweetie I love your opinions, but I don't see that I'm condemning any teenagers to despair. . . . I'm telling them they have a "condition" that they aren't responsible for causing, and their treatment options to feel better are: find a cultural group that accepts them, cosmetic surgery, and chemical alterations. You are telling them the same thing but it concerns me that you are telling them they are "broken" until they do it.

Frankly, Kathryn, we are both old and conservative and grew up in a world that doesn't exist anymore, and we don't live in the present the way young people do, and we have no good and current sense of what their life and outlook is like.

And LeaP, see how perjorative "broken" is? You have started saying you're "afflicted" instead. I'll not quibble with that word - it fits. The condition causing the affliction is a genetic variation, not a condition of brokenness, not a condition measured by an impossible standard of normalness.

Which leads to the quote from Dr. Hyman, no comment from anyone? really? He said the DSM is built wrong and its being replaced with RDoC. THIS IS HUGE. And not a peep. Don't be like IBM ignoring Microsoft in 1985.

And Anne, you shifted into a meaning of life discussion . . . and it was tender and footnoted by your reference to personal tragic references. And your situational ethics position in this epic semantic discussion Kathryn launched with her OP. . . is IMHO quite sensible.

Which leads me to my favorite quote from a contemporary writer who really summarizes the mystery of life, the genetic randomness of life, randomness of experience, the possibility there's more than we can comprehend. Neil Gaiman wrote this line for his Sandman series character Death, in the series called Death:The High Cost of Living - "You get what anyone gets; You get a lifetime."
Its not religious, but Gaimen never says who do we "get" our life from. And its not fatalism, because he places our life in our hands to do with what we are able, while we have it.

[LeaP]

I used the word afflicted to explain, or rationalize "broken" - not to replace it. One reason I think that broken fits is that the cure is really only a patch. Rather like a repair where, if you look closely enough, you can see the details. And I don't mean the surgical scars, either.

I've addressed variation. Both genetic and developmental (from hormones timing, pre and post-natal). Kathryn commented on the RDoC change - your comment wasn't ignored. I understand the significance, but don't see the applicability here. Better etiology does not equate to normality. Many, many genetic and developmental issues result in abnormal conditions. I understand your general point but think the dividing line in this case between normal and not is the inherent, untenable tension, given sufficient intensity. Something that requires repair is not normal. I can accept that gender variance occurs at a level of intensity (or even personal experience) that may be regarded as normal. Lynn's comments and viewpoint are close to that point of view.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

i don't want to talk about this anymore..i'm mad at myself for getting caught up in it..

frankly this bores me

its hypothetical, its filled with empty semantics that serve no purpose..i'm broken, i'm not broken..tomato/tomatoe who cares..

cisgender people don't generally understand us without alot of really hard work..they generally look down on us and marginalize us..and they do it regardless of whether we are transitioned or not...some use the word broken or they pity us...

usually by transitioning we find that many people become much more willing to do the hard work to embrace us as is... some people from our male past cannot easily do this, especially lovers and family, which is very sad...

..it is what it is..all the words in China won't change it...we'll impact our own lives on a one by one basis for better or worse...broken or not..

if it helps you to deal with the situation by calling yourself broken, i am a fan of any means neccessary to get through this...

[Aprilrain]

however, i see no specific reason or divine purpose in being born this way (wrong). Rather, i view being born this way as pure, random happenstance.

word................

[DaniG]

It depends on your definition of broken. We have a condition that causes damatic upheavals in our lives, and requires drastic and life-changing remedies. So, by analogy, would someone born with clubfoot be considered broken? How about a cancer patient? I agree with Kathryn's OP. I think Celeste hits the nail on the head when she points out that there's a fix needed. A fix is only needed where something is broken.


Lea’s comment it’s like being born with a cleft palate? My nephew is a terrific kid and he wasn’t born broken. He was born with genetic variation that makes life difficult. Surgery helped, but he still has speaking issues. So he’s still broken???

This indicates your defintion of 'broken' means that the brokenness is pervasive in the person, and they can never be fixed. I think your definition is a little more extreme than others here who state things like this:


If its Broke fix it ,, If it ain't broke don't fix it ,, Some of us Need fixing ,,lol,,,

To others, the word is highly stigmitized.


broken is a word that others use about us... there are other words that are different but similar including defective/wrong/less

...evil people are broken..narcissists are broken...sociopaths are broken...lawyers are broken....oops...:devil:

I don't mind being called broken because to me it merely means that there is physiological error in my makeup. It does not reflect on my moral character. It does not mean that I'm less of a person. It just means I have a medical problem that I have to deal with, like removing a mole or something... only a lot more intensive.

So I think the emotionally charged nature of the word is why this thread has gotten so heated. Perhaps a different term would be better.

Yes, to some degree we'll always be TS, but it does not mean we can't do what we need to in order to be better fulfilled and find happiness. It just means we're acknowledging this ascept of our existence.


I regard transsexualism as an intersexed condition.

This makes a lot of sense to me.


I know I'm broken, I just don't want the cracks to show.

I'd be thrilled to get here someday.


I believe that those two terms, while speaking from a biological point of view, may not reflect a true definition of being TG. ... So, are we "Broken" or "Wrong" the answer lies in the hands of the people that define us...

While I fully acknowledge your point about the pressures of society's nonacceptance, that does not account for the entire TS dilema. More prominent is the effect of gender dysphoria. If society was entirely accepting of TSs, we would still have to deal with the incongruence of our bodies and minds. Therefore, whether we are broken or not is inherent in us.


That's the way it's been ever since I rejected the idea of Gender Dysphoria as being an affliction and learned to celebrate the unique life God gave me.

Honest question. I occassionally hear people say this, and I wonder how they find it to be a gift. I'm well acquinted with the downsides. Would you would be willing to share your exeriences on the positives? I started a new thread for this topic, "The Gift of Transsexualism".

[punkypunk]

I'm going to quote the vandals, "I don't give a damn coz I am what I am, even if it's really, really bad"
:-) lol

[Barbara Ella]

OK, I am going back to reread all of this, because the discussions are wonderful.

I want to take a much more simplistic approach, which I know might be unusual for me...lol

A lot of the discussion hinges on the definition of broken. I believe for something/someone to be broken, they must have been working. I do not believe broken can be applied to something that springs into being in a certain state of shall we say, disrepair. That is not broken, it is just incomplete (not the right word here, but thinking on it).

How many of the TS here feel that they were perfectly functioning for a time during their life? We may feel broken in spirit, or that our soul is broken by this if we feel our souls/spirit were functioning well at one time. But broken, no, we have just not been completed (wording?) because of a myriad of reasons, and we are left to our own designs to attempt to complete the work to the best we can.

I am not broken, I just have not finished completing myself, something nature started but stopped short on.

Barbara

[Chickhe]

No... , but sometimes we are made to feel that way. Imagine for a moment that everything in the world was perfect...everyone is treated equally and with respect. People are free to be themselves and everyone is accepted. Then, nobody would feel broken, right? But, today rules are imposed on people by other people which makes you feel broken if you don't fit societies perfect mold. If it is discovered that some gene got clobbered by mistake...then maybe some people are broken, but suppose the grand plan automatically introduces variation and people are supposed to be different ...well then, maybe everyone is perfect according to plan even if they are not the same?

...so, are you broken if society doesn't fit you and you want to live a happy life in that society? Maybe you need to change to fit in.

[Jorja]

Broken is not the right word to explain our condition. Think of it more like a Ford, GM, Toyota or Honda car that has been fitted with the wrong parts. In essences the manufacturer should put out a recall on the improperly equipped models. However, in our case the manufacturer has closed up shop and is out of business so we must find after-market equipment to replace the parts.

[mary something]

excellent point chi

If society was organized in a manner that maximized each individuals human potential then I think that transgender folk would be treated quite differently. I don't think anyone here would try to argue that our society fits that description, but that is a topic for another thread I suppose. Personally I think that a western society such as ours is much too accustomed to the idea of wasting resources and human potential at the pursuit of capitalist profit.

In short we are exceptional people who despite being placed in a hostile discriminatory environment are capable of thriving.

[Anne2345]

I am not broken, I just have not finished completing myself, something nature started but stopped short on.

I don't know if you are broken or not, Barbara. But your perception is flawed, IMO.

It's not that nature stopped short on transsexuals, or that it's up to us to finish completing ourselves. It's that nature completely ****ed us up the ass, gave us the wrong parts and the wrong bodies, and flung us out there to fend for ourselves.

At least for me, there is nothing to complete that nature began but fell short on. I mean, my dude body is pretty damn ****ing complete. It is painfully, mindblowingly, cursedly complete. It is so ****ing complete that it's impossible to undo all of the damage. But that's what it comes down to - I have to undo all the crap I was born with, and attempt to replace it all with stuff I should have had from day 1 but wasn't provided.

In other words, I am just plain wrong, as opposed to incomplete. My mind and body are incongruent. It's up to me, though, to take affirmative action and correct the wrong.

So I believe there IS a distinction, fwiw.

[LeaP]

Kaitlyn, I only partially agree. Controlling the conceptualization is important. I think many of us agree with that - even those who dislike some terms. I don't EVER expect the cisgender population to regard us as normal and never as "merely" different (as some may regarding gays, for example). One can't rationally maintain that one is simply different ... yet needs to change. "OK, you're normal, just different? I see, and if it's so terrific to be what you are, you need to change it ... why???" (Yes, I'm aware that I'm conflating several different arguments here.)

Your major gripe is the irrelevance of the semantics, which is where I depart. It really DOESN'T matter to the trans person, one place we agree ... now. All the analysis mattered a great deal for a long while to me for my own understanding, though! But now as you say, it is what it is. It really, really does to the non-trans population, who needs a framework to understand. Beyond that, the framework translates into social acceptance, legal treatment, medicine and insurance, etc. I say tread carefully with the conceptualization and the semantics, because they have real teeth in the real world. Policy isn't writ on "it is what it is."

[Rianna Humble]

No... , but sometimes we are made to feel that way. Imagine for a moment that everything in the world was perfect...everyone is treated equally and with respect. People are free to be themselves and everyone is accepted. Then, nobody would feel broken, right?

To me, it wouldn't matter how much more accepting society was towards transsexuals, I would still have a birth defect that needs action to be corrected. The sham me was treated with respect, it wasn't enough to make me able to go on living a sham.


If society was organized in a manner that maximized each individuals human potential then I think that transgender folk would be treated quite differently.

What difference would maximising my potential make to the fact that I am not nor ever have been a man - yet my body proclaims otherwise? What "potential" do you expect your perfect society to maximise in me that would change that fact?

[mary something]

Rianna I would argue that if our society was different and maximized human potential it would not be binary. We don't fit the binary as we are born, it is our struggle to find our place in this world that defines us.

If you look at older civilizations you'll see examples of us (by different names of course whether it be hirja, eunuch, Fa'afafine or other) thriving and having a place, a name, a path to follow. These older civilizations did not have the luxury of being able to decide that some people were broken and others weren't. Every person in the village was needed to ensure everyones survival.

We know that gender identity isn't fully formed until we are about the age of 3. Why is that? Our physical gender and genetic gender is complete before birth, so what advantage is there in the fact that gender identity doesn't complete until after we are capable of talking and being social?

The reason why is because we are social animals, we NEED to have social interactions with others of our tribe or family. Inmates locked in solitary confinement for extended periods of time suffer madness from the isolation.

Most importantly by having gender identity complete itself after we are aware of the world around us it allows us to find the role that we fit into best. Unfortunately we live in a society that doesn't recognize us, there is no concept of third gender in the social consciousness. Most importantly the average two or three year old has no concept of it so they either choose M or F, because they have never been exposed to anything other than the binary how could they imagine anything else even existed? When children first start playing with others they find out quick whether they would rather play with the girls or boys, and cement their gender identity.

In our society the only unanimous agreement amongst the general population about what defines a woman is the fact that it is a person without a penis. Woman is a catch-all category and so we feel drawn to that.

To put it another way how many kids dreamed of becoming astronauts or web designers 300 years ago?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fa'afafine

In Samoan society they are not men or women, but Fa'afafine and they are happy with this. They do not wish to become one or the other because when their gender identity was being formed there was a third option that fit them.

[Rianna Humble]

Sorry Mary, none of that answers my question.

Incidentally, how do we know that Gender Identity is not formed before the age of 3 - how many new-borns have been asked their experience of Gender Identity?

Your argument about the Samoans who identify as something between Male and Female is fine for genderqueers and has absolutely nothing to do with the experience of transsexuals.

This thread is not about genderqueers.

[Kathryn Martin]

its hypothetical, its filled with empty semantics that serve no purpose..i'm broken, i'm not broken..tomato/tomatoe who cares.

The semantics are created by the interpretation of the word "broken" and all of it's perceived negative connotations. What stands however is the underlying issue which really is, how can you need healing when you are "healthy". When I am confronted with a statement by a person is not transsexual that "all transsexuals are broken" and I ask myself how do I answer this then looking at my and most transsexuals' common history, then I find that the need to heal or correct or fix themselves is the most pressing no matter what age fear is conquered.

So, do I answer then: I am not broken, but a normal variation of biological human variation nothing to worry about?

Or do I answer: You are right in one way I am broken and it can be healed, corrected, fixed?

Which of those two answers do you believe will elicit a response that is in fact an appropriate response to our need. You see I am not part of a minority, I couldn't give a flying hoot what society thinks of me for being so afflicted. I should have had a uterus, ovaries and a vagina. I don't care who screwed that up, society, God, my parents, my mothers hormone washes during gestation, that's all for philosophy courses and, alas, semantics. What I want to know is, what on earth can I do about it. How can my body be corrected that I can live a normal life, and be the woman I was born to be. By denying my pathology (and it is a pathology if you are born with missing reproductive organs) I have nothing left to fix but rail against society that they don't embrace me for being whatever outside of the norm.

I am currently working with three young MtF transsexuals aged 20, 22 and 26 professionally. They do not have any acceptance problems because the younger generation growing up has none of those issues. Two of them live in deeply conservative rural communities like I do too. But all three need only one thing: to correct their physical disability. People understand that, they realize that something is seriously "broken", afflicted, disabled and it's not these girls and this boys head but their bodies. One of them is an amazing mother, one is a spectacular make up artist and so gorgeous it brings tears to your eyes and the young man is such a man it makes you want to fan yourself. If you were to tell them that they are not disabled, "broken" or afflicted by this curse they would think you are nuts. They have no interest in being activists, or obtain rights which they already have, they want to get fixed, they want to be mothers, models, providers, with a wife and husbands, with a house (I think white picket fences are of no interest to them) and good job and a great family. What stands in the way for them is that their disabled, broken afflicted body stands in the way. It is not semantics it's the practical, required, necessary pre-condition to what they need.

They are transsexuals and one day they will be a man or women with a transsexual history.

[Angela Campbell]

In a lot of ways I have to agree with Anne. I cannot say I am not complete and all I need to do is complete something...and I agree also that "broken" infers that it worked at one point. It has never been that way for me, it has been all wrong since my earliest memories.

For me it is birth defect, nothing else really describes it for me. Even the best treatment available is no more than a band aid or illusion, it may never really be right.

[DaniG]

Sorry Mary, none of that answers my question.

I think that to refine the disconnect between Rianna's question and Mary's response, many of us are seeing the crux of the problem as a social one, how we interact with society. But for others (Rianna and I included), the more important aspect is completely internal, the discontinuity between body and mind. Society is completely irrelevant to this problem. I hope that helps clarify it a bit.

[celeste26]

Consider this point of view. Transexualism or GID or whatever you want to call it is the only medical condition that has no objective symptoms, no way of proving outside of what the individual says about themselves. There is no objective test that can be taken, no serious non-biased way to ever be sure for society, for doctors or even ourselves. Just feelings that our bodies are not the way they should be, and based upon those feelings a surgery that has been controversial since it was first performed.

Yet still we argue about whether we are "broken," there is no surgery for feelings is there?

[Kathryn Martin]

That may be true for GID or GD which I postulated in my OP is not part of a transsexual diagnosis. Not so true for transsexualism. There are objective symptoms that are measurable and can be used for diagnoses.

I presume you are non-op?

[mary something]

Incidentally, how do we know that Gender Identity is not formed before the age of 3 - how many new-borns have been asked their experience of Gender Identity?

"Basic gender identity is usually formed by age three and is extremely difficult to change after that" this is a quote from the wikipedia page here, there are three citations to support this claim that can be found there http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity

DaniG I was referencing how we interact with society but more importantly I was making the point that the society we grow up in has a lot to do with how we perceive ourselves, in no way does that diminish the authenticity of a transsexual in this society. It is just as authentic and true for me to know that I am a person with a woman's brain that unfortunately developed testes in utero as it would be for a Samoan that is my identical twin to identify as Fa'afafine and neither man nor woman.

Like it or not we are shaped by our environment just as much as a coffee bean is shaped by the soil it is grown in. Two genetically identical coffee trees that are grown in different parts of the world will produce beans that are noticeably different tasting. Making the argument that society has no influence on our inner feelings is ignoring the fact that we are social beings and are shaped by our experiences.

The point that I'm making with this argument is that I KNOW I am NOT BROKEN. My path to fulfillment may be different depending on where and when I live my life, my feelings and needs may be different depending on the society that shapes me in ways that are impossible for me to separate from myself. It is nothing more than a shell game, a fraud if you will, for a society that deals with gender variance to simultaneously exclude me from the binary while teaching me that only the binary exists. It is for this reason that I will never identify as broken or be particularly worried that I am, even as a postop woman with a transsexual history one day.

[Kathryn Martin]

Gender specific behaviors are learned during early child development and transgressions are tools to enable the learning process. It is strongly influenced by the culture in which a child is raised.

This aspect makes the "I have always know" narrative so prevalent in transgender circles that they always knew, simply a re-interpretation of normal child behavior by emphasizing as not normal what is in fact normal. This claim that a child’s very early behavior indicates a gender inversion and therefore is innate is not something that you will find with those that I would call true transsexuals.

[mary something]

Kathryn, I'm not sure if I understand what you mean when discussing early childhood behavior and true transsexuals, can you go in a little more detail for me please?

[Deborah_UK]

"Basic gender identity is usually formed by age three and is extremely difficult to change after that" this is a quote from the wikipedia page here, there are three citations to support this claim that can be found there http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity



I'm sorry but I take anything quoted from Wikipedia with a TON of salt - I could go in there and change it - that's the flaw in Wikipedia (imo)

[mary something]

as well you should Deborah, but that is why I referenced the 3 citations of support to this claim, those web links you could not change unless you have some serious hacker skills ;)

[elizabethamy]

Some very wise people have been telling me that we (science) just don't know for sure when or if gender is ever a "fixed" concept. It might be fluid. Twenty years from now, we might know so much that all the angst that makes crossdressers.com the place to be and therapists always busy will be fixed with a little pill.

Or not! I'm convinced that we know much less than we think we do. Therefore, each of us has a challenge to figure out: who am I, what do I do with the life I have left, whether it's five years, thirty years, or eighty years?

The concept of "broken" really bothers me. I am suffering but I am not broken. Broken is for people who have given up on themselves.

e.a.

[Debglam]

Well said!

Physical (my personal belief), mental, or a combination of both is NOTHING BUT SPECULATION(!!!!) at this point. IMHO, very few things in this world are black or white, yes or no.

We are all just playing the hands we were dealt in the way that we individually need to!

Deb

[EmilyPith]

I am not broken, I just have not finished completing myself, something nature started but stopped short on.

I would like to elaborate on Barbara Ella (pshyadella) with my own prattle if I may:

I am the soul in this container. I will make of it what I please. Until we stop on this earth, we are unfinished, germinating, metamorphosing, evolving. Our minds will grow and change as long as we continue to search and learn.

Broken, no. Alive, kicking, screaming and cranky, absolutely.

I am not a woman, I will never be a woman, and I can only really think that I am thinking like a woman because... well, I am not a woman and I am guessing that this is how a woman would think... I may as well want to become a duck. Aint gonna happen.

The desire or longing is nothing new(not the duck part), I think it comes closer to broken when it reaches the obsessive stage. That can happen about a lot of things, though.

What I am is a man with a not so unique (despite what society tells us) perspective on the world.

Don't get me wrong, I still want to know why, but I would rather be this, with the ability to search, think, learn, grow, and love than some of the true psychoses and deformations that exist.

Quack.

[LeaP]

@Emily - And the relevance of this to a MtF transsexual - a woman is ... what? Your reason for posting about yourself (as a non-transsexual by your own words) in a thread about transsexuals, is ... what?

[TeresaL]

I'd like to have my diabetes and cataracts fixed because they are part of my broken body. So I'm taking pills for my diabetes, and will soon have "the" surgery for my cataracts. We do the same for gender birth defects -- pills and surgery.

[Badtranny]

Broken is for people who have given up on themselves..

Careful. I've stated my feeling on this, and I would challenge anyone to debate me on the concept of "giving up on myself". I've clearly done nothing of the sort. My journey has been documented and verified by many on this board.

So I feel like I was born broken, ...I would say I've managed it pretty well.

[ReineD]

You see I actually believe that being transsexual means that you are "broken".

Yes, if you compare it to any other, fixable medical condition. A broken arm or leg needs mending to knit the bones again. A congenital heart defect needs surgery so it can be strong and healthy. Transsexuals have broken primary and secondary physical characteristics that need mending so they can match the binary, either male (FtM) or female internal gender (MtF).



Gender Variance is a culture spawned psychiatric condition that is rooted in non-conformance to cultural norms surrounding gender and it's societal rejection.

Culture spawned psychiatric condition perhaps, but not internal psychiatic condition. It is not a psychiatric condition for my SO, who truly is not purely one gender or the other internally, although it is difficult to live that way in a world that gets most of its information from visible cues ... which have historically been either "male" or "female". Few people are prepared to accept the concept of hermaphrodites, who until recently were circus side shows. My SO has his/her (hir?) own gender, but to physically transition to a hermaphrodite and live publicly this way would be difficult indeed.



Cultural acceptance of gender non-conforming behavior does nothing for transsexuals in terms of their underlying condition.

Maybe we can discuss this with resorting to thread closure.

Agreed. We cannot compare individuals who reside at the binary end of the spectrum whether they are cis or ts, to the gender variants who live in the middle.

The difficulty is in getting everyone to believe in the validity of non-binary gender (bigender or dualgender) and not look at feminine males as "less than" anything, or God forbid, gay!

Since we do obtain our info from what we see around us and not what resides inside everyone, many MtFs who truly are in the middle (as opposed to males who crossdress) know they are not male, yet to tell them they are not female in comparison to their non-maleness is not acceptable to them. They simply do not have the language nor have they seen evidence to understand or believe in non-binary gender, just like Doubting Thomas who had to see in order to believe. And then we have the individuals who are so thoroughly frustrated over not being able to express their non-binary selves by alternating male and female gender expression freely, that the temptation to reject the male self rises to the forefront especially if they're at the stage when their self-expression is somewhat euphoric. Try to tell such people they are not female.

I'm over simplifying, but hopefully you get my point. :)

[Kathryn Martin]

Reine, I am so glad you understood the "broken" reference. If you strip all of the emotional undertones that this word evokes in people it is an apt description of our bodies.

What I intended with "culture spawned" was how the condition and it's distress comes from the perception of non conformance by society. If it was generally accepted or even cherished that anyone could express themselves freely without having their social status challenged there might not be any distress. The distress if it is there can be catastrophically intense, hence GID or GD and is a serious problem for the individual. Your observation about the frustration driving rejection of male self is incredibly astute. In recognizing that the driver is intensity of frustration and distress over the non-acceptance by the acculturated social environment of one of the expressions it becomes clear that regrets are essentially programmed in to a transition if it were to happen. It would remove the flexibility of expression but the other way round.

It is interesting that prevalence for gender variance and transsexualism are quite different. Based on my view of transsexualism (need to surgically correct your body to reflect your gender) this is a very rare condition. I happened to come across some actual statistics of surgeries performed for one of the Canadian Provinces yesterday, that suggest that prevalence is 1: 32129.

In my view gender variance has a much higher incidence, as much as 1:500. If you consider jeans and a button down shirt worn by women a variance on the culturally determined female paradigm in it mildest form then from a social acceptance perspective the lines between "normal" and "not normal" become so blurred that it reveals, in my view, the insanity of the cultural norms society imposes on its members. Of course jeans and button down shirts have long since become "acceptable". Take for instance a man wearing tight fitting jeans and a sweater. If the colors of the sweater are muted, darker it's ok, if they are bright, maybe rose colored or violet you are suddenly suspicious, add a little swish in the hip and you're variously a sissy or gay. It is truly insane. Now have a man wear a skirt that is not "sc-o-httish" and you have all hell breaking loose.

[ReineD]

I agree with your numbers Kathryn. I do believe there are very few Level V or VI transsexuals. And I've seen with my own eyes instances where there are regrets when someone who is gender variant chooses to transition. The smiles are wide indeed just after SRS, but over time the smiles fade when she realizes that she is no happier as a binary female than she was when living purely male under severe constraints. And you're right … it's a f***ing mess brought on by a society that has overly rigid views of gender expression, again based on visible evidence rather than what truly resides in the cores of a minority, but still significant segment of the population in terms of sheer numbers. The ratio 1:500 translates to 14 million people worldwide who are non-binary gender variant, and if we are to be more generous and include males who crossdress regularly who are perhaps on their way to realizing their gender-variance and alter this ratio to 1:250 or even 1:100, this number translates to 28 million or 70 million people worldwide respectively.

So first, I want to define something. Binary maleness is a range, just as is binary femaleness, just as there is a range for everything else for example normal weight and normal IQ. It is false to define a binary, average male who is solid in his maleness as strictly macho and the binary average female who is solid in her femaleness as strictly girly, just as it is wrong to say that the range for normal weight for a given height or normal IQ is only one number. We all need to look at our neighbors and family members to ascertain the truth of this. Speaking of the cisgender population, not all hetero men are ultra macho, not all gay men are effeminate, not all hetero women are super girly, and not all lesbians are butch. In short, there is a wide range of both masculine and feminine personalities, all of whom are solid in their respictive gender identities that match their genetics (and that don't match their genetics for transsexuals).

I define this for the benefit of the perhaps newer readers here who are unclear as to what "binary" means, and this means someone who does idendity purely male or purely female, within a socially defined and acceptable, rather wide range of behaviors and preferences, whether they are cis, or getting back to your title, whether they were born with broken primary and secondary sexual characteristics.

So having defined this, there are still people whose gender identities fall outside of the male/female binaries described above, and these crossdressers/bigenders/dualgenders/gender-variants/gender-fluids/gender-nonconformists/transgenderists/etc who engage in cross-gender expression for more than fetish or just fun, would love nothing more than to live in a world where they would be allowed full freedom to express themselves, full freedom to publicly celebrate their natural sexual attractions whether androphile, gynephile, or both, if such a world were to recognize the validity of non-binary gender identity and variance in sexual attraction. Can you imagine such a world? Boys would be allowed to wear pink, have long hair, wear makeup, have electrolysis, and be pretty, and still marry girls if hetero and boys if gay, and climb up the career ladder, if society considered such boys just as attractive and desirable as the non-gender-variant boys. Actually, the gender variant genetic women already have more such freedom (although it is still challenging to be a gender-variant FtM in many circles), and this might explain the fewer numbers of FtMs who seek full transition or as full as is medically possible for FtMs. At any rate, we would have very few members of the gender-variant community feeling torn because they felt they had to pick a side and opting to forsake their birth sex entirely, down to penis removal for MtFs. And in my opinion, there would be lots more happy campers. :)

So in a nutshell, I agree with you.

[kellycan27]

Information overload! IMHO this thread has turned into an exercise in intellect. I just don't see how all this information and complex explanations are going to helpful to people who are really struggling ( for the most part) with the very basics of being transsexual to begin with. They would be great if one were writing a thesis or term paper, but honestly how are they helpful in the everyday life of the transsexual? When you're up to your ass in alligators it's hard to remember that your intention was to drain the swamp. Meaning: when someone is struggling with transition the who's, what's and whys become pretty irrelevant. It would be like my doctor telling me that I have cancer and then going into a detailed explanation of the disease itself. All I am going to hear is that I have it. ... Just saying.

[LeaP]

Kelly - yes, but I believe this thread largely fulfills the intentions of the OP. There's room for both types of discussion.

[mary something]

Reine and Kathryn I think you make an excellent point, because how we view this question and it's implications is contingent on our understanding of gender variance and it's degrees. Although we use the term gender identity I think we all know it's a lot more complex than just whether your switch is set to M or F, that's just a simple way of dealing with it for conversation's sake that only accurately describes a small segment of the entire population. I recently read this article by Bushong and he proposes a mesh theory of gender that although it is more complicated and doesn't provide easy labels I think it helps understand the situation better. By breaking down one's sense of individual gender into three categories it allows for a model that predicts what we see in the real world. If applied correctly I think it could be used by folks to help them decide how far they want to change their role towards their preferred gender role while balancing against the discomfort that is felt by folks who transition farther than perhaps they should have.

http://www.transgendercare.com/guidance/what_is_gender.htm

[kellycan27]

Kelly - yes, but I believe this thread largely fulfills the intentions of the OP. There's room for both types of discussion.

Agreed.... There's room for both discussions and opinions... Even mine.

[Kathryn Martin]

... Just saying.

I just did!!!!!

[ReineD]

Information overload! IMHO this thread has turned into an exercise in intellect. I just don't see how all this information and complex explanations are going to helpful to people who are really struggling ( for the most part) with the very basics of being transsexual to begin with.

The point is, Kelly, that some people say that are transsexual when they really mean they are gender-variant. They accurately do not feel they are men in the sense that our society defines men, but they would be no happier living as women full time either because this would mean greater losses than they could bear, or they are not willing to alter their bodies and live full time with a legal name change. So I see this thread as an attempt to not necessarily help transsexuals to transition, but to help people who straddle the concept to realize there is a lot more to this than just being a guy who likes to wear dresses, or being a woman who has been given the wrong body.

Edit - ... and to help everyone realize that EVERY single point on the vast gender ID line is perfectly valid. There is no point that is less than or more than any other point even though the graphic representation of a line is continuous. The way that I see it is more like a lot of random dots all over inside a circle in terms of how valid are the various forms of gender identity.

[LeaP]

Reine, I also don't know how you take a thread (or at least the OP) from a question of whether *transsexuals* are broken, to an intent of "help people who straddle the concept ... (etc.)" That's particularly true - I believe - with Kathryn, as she is well-known for making a bright-line distinction between transsexuals and gender-variant people.

I agree with your point on the validity of all identities. I just don't understand its relevance to this thread.

I know this isn't a thread about transsexual definitions, but ANY definition starts with the persistent identification of the gender opposite to that corresponding with their birth sex. For a natal male, that's identification as a woman, not as a "not-man."

This IS a thread about transition, in a way. Boiling it to its essence, Kathryn implies that a judgement-neutral view of "broken" reduces the problem to a physical fix. A goodly portion of her point is additionally that the psychological symptoms are (therefore) secondary. This suggests that approaching the problem in this way creates some distance from the psychological, acceptance, and adjustment issues, allowing relief to focus on THE problem. I haven't validated this with Kathryn, but I would bet it's close. Further, given Kathryn's prior statements on gender-variance and transsexuality, I would hazard the guess that she regards someone who never CAN see or feel the need for the physical correction (regardless of whether they are able), should be focusing on their gender issue and not worrying about whether they are transsexual.

[I][edit] Oh, and I'll eat my words if I'm wrong ...

[Anne2345]

[edit] Oh, and I'll eat my words if I'm wrong ...

I hope your reading comprehension skills are better than your math skills, Lea. :heehee:

[Kathryn Martin]

Lea, you are entirely correct. I see the problems that arise with psychologists and psychiatrists and their patients flailing around because there is no appropriate line drawn between the two conditions. Gender Variant persons really need to focus on the acceptance aspect more than anything else. I would suggest that gender variant persons have an entirely different path in both preparation and transition than a transsexual. There are many overlapping areas. By using transsexualism as a "medical justification" for the acceptance of their condition gender variant persons both deflect society from the real issues facing those who experience variance and pre-program outcomes that in a majority of cases are unwanted but driven by the belief that being able to medically justify what they need they will gain acceptance. The problem lies then with so called non-op women. ( and I do not talk about transsexuals who are truly prevented from surgery because of genuine provable medical issues).

Women in general have a healthy resistance to "women" that don't have vaginas but in fact have penises. This is not a civil rights issue but a direct outflow from this falsely claimed diagnosis. It especially prevents, in my view, the necessary learning that society needs to understand that variance is a culture bound health issue.

[ReineD]

I agree with your point on the validity of all identities. I just don't understand its relevance to this thread.

Lea, I began by addressing the beginning of the following quote, and then expanding on it:



Cultural acceptance of gender non-conforming behavior does nothing for transsexuals in terms of their underlying condition.

Kathryn was making a distinction between gender non-corformists and transsexuals, and I was focusing more on the gender non-conformists.

I think that what I've written is relevant to this thread and the TS section simply because we often have people who post here thinking they are TS when their definitions of TS are entirely different than yours and Kathryn's. I don't think it hurts to help people understand who they are and the way to do this is to value them just as much as TSs are valued in this community.

[LeaP]

That's fair, Reine. Again, I don't think it's a matter of valuing people. Rather, I think conflating the two conditions in the forum constantly helps create and perpetuate a problem.

[celeste26]

In these PC days where everyone's self esteem is protected no matter how one wants to present oneself it is A OK with those who are the PC police. One goal in therapy is to get everyone to accept them self for who they are. So for those whose self esteem and acceptance is up to approved levels the remaining question is there any need for surgical procedures? We don't fix things that are A OK do we?

On the other hand, comfort levels and such are a gauge of our feelings, something very real to us as individuals but hardly scientifically detectable. Even that wonderful feeling of finally being "at right with the world" is ephemeral, can be the ultimate result of properly done surgery but it really exists in the mind not the body. Unfortunately we have no surgery for the mind (and no, lobotomy was not a surgery of the mind.)

[Kathryn Martin]

One goal in therapy is to get everyone to accept them self for who they are. So for those whose self esteem and acceptance is up to approved levels the remaining question is there any need for surgical procedures? We don't fix things that are A OK do we?

The problem is when you have accepted yourself and you step out into the world, is the world going to accept you?

You know, if everything is A ok then for God's sake don't touch it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It is a completely insane thing to mutilate a perfectly A ok body!!!!!!!!!!

[Marleena]

Ouch! I thought mutilation only referred to one trying to cut their own penis off?

[celeste26]

How many other groups have had to deal with prejudice of some sort or another?

The original peoples of this continent (we erroneously called them Indians) were killed off, their languages were taken away, their children were taken away, and they were told to live in areas where the land just could not sustain them and all we have to deal with is our feelings don't quite match our bodies. It is just a matter of perspective isn't it? Mainly it is our own selves which do the real damage to ourselves.

[ReineD]

Again, I don't think it's a matter of valuing people. Rather, I think conflating the two conditions in the forum constantly helps create and perpetuate a problem.

I agree. I by no means intended to put everyone in the same proverbial boat.

The problem is that many of the gender non-conformists do not feel they belong in the CD section since internally they do not feel they are men. I don't blame them, since panty threads don't address their needs. And some of the transwomen feel as if any talk of non level V or VI transsexualism does not belong here. It's a quandary.

[arbon]

All thats needed is a "transgender" section

[steftoday]

I'd apply for that section.

[Marleena]

@ Reine I started a new thread based on the Benjamin scale just to get everybodies take on it. Oh... and Arbon I think somebody already asked for a Transgender forum to be created.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

The TS forum would have 11 people in it if it was ts only...oops thats safe haven...

I think that's kind of the point of the whole thread in some ways...

[Kathryn Martin]

Lol, I would have guessed 5..... and all those that are on their way

[Marleena]

*bows to the chosen ones*

[Badtranny]

The TS forum would have 11 people in it if it was ts only...oops thats safe haven....

Which is why I don't think an exclusive forum is necessary or productive. I like a big open public forum, I just wish the mods would hold the line a little better on CD issues vs actual transitioning issues.

I mean, how long before people start insisting they are actually transitioning but they just haven't come out to anyone yet? The whole self identification thing can slide into absurdity quite easily. The forum should make a distinction so that only bonafide TS issues are discussed in the TS forum.

...and this has nothing to do with me or any of the other TS mouthpieces, I just think that new TS questioners should be able to distinguish between the forums. I mean come on, if under-dressing and making deals with the wife are recurring themes in this section, than what's the difference?

[Lynnmorgan451]

Thou art not tranny enough. Sorry but I'm not a cd or a transvestite. I guess I don't belong here either. Sorry for posting my issues as they are not at a high enough tranny level for this forum. Won't happen again

[kerrianna]

The problem is when you have accepted yourself and you step out into the world, is the world going to accept you?

You know, if everything is A ok then for God's sake don't touch it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It is a completely insane thing to mutilate a perfectly A ok body!!!!!!!!!!

Who the f* cares if the world accepts me? I know that sounds facetious Kathryn, or maybe the word is flippant - because obviously one does care, but I spent my whole life worrying about what people would think of me or how they would accept me. The point is, there will always be some people who like ME and some people who don't. It's not my problem. My only problem is if I like me. If I don't then the whole world could adore me and I'd just think they're all stupid for doing so and I would merrily continue to ruin my own life.

And I do not consider GRS to be mutilation. I'm not sure why you would even use that word, even in irony? Or??? I mean, is that what it seemed to you like? I know it feels that way in a sense, but then every single change you make to your body can be called mutilating it. If you cut your hair you are messing with your body's natural process right?

mu·ti·late (mytl-t)
tr.v. mu·ti·lat·ed, mu·ti·lat·ing, mu·ti·lates
1. To deprive of a limb or an essential part; cripple.
2. To disfigure by damaging irreparably: mutilate a statue. See Synonyms at batter1.
3. To make imperfect by excising or altering parts.

Sorry, but I shudder to think anyone would ascribe those conditions to my GRS. It was a cosmetic change or modification I made, and for the betterment of my own self.

Funny enough I was telling Carol today about how someone I have been good friends with a long time once made the mutilation comment in this very section. It didn't go over too well.

I mean, you can think that and say it even, but it's your opinion. I don't share it at all.

[stefan37]

Thou art not tranny enough. Sorry but I'm not a cd or a transvestite. I guess I don't belong here either. Sorry for posting my issues as they are not at a high enough tranny level for this forum. Won't happen again

It has nothing to do with how tranny or not someone is. The transsexual forum is geared towards those that are actively transitioning. There is a crossdressing forum that would be the place for all other posts. Lynn you stated in another thread about a gadzillion reasons why you will not or cannot give up your male attributes. You can think of yourself in any way you want and if you find solace that is fine. But those of us that are actively transitioning have made the decision that to live as a male can be no more and giving up our male attributes and privileges is a necessary action to achieve our authentic self.

Those of us in a marital relationship face much different issues than those that are single. I try to compromise with my wife in an attempt to make her more comfortable. The one non-negotiable is I am transitioning and I will do whatever I have to to accomplish that. We now sleep in separate rooms. How long we stay together or in the same house is unknown. We have been having the most candid, honest conversations than we ever have in our 30 years of marriage.

The point of this forum is to discuss issues we as active transitioners face daily. We are not afraid of leaving the home as a woman. We are not afraid of interacting with other people or if our neighbors know. My neighbor the other day asked if I had a cold, I told him I was fine I was changing my voice. The majority of us have lost marriages or the dynamic has changed significantly and we no longer sleep in the same room or have intimate physical contact. The relationship is more platonic. There are those started transition but have found a comfort level that suits them, and they are happy to compromise with their wives at whatever level makes them happy. They do not post how unfair it is they cannot transition because of the demands of their wives.

Although I identified as a crossdresser, I could not relate to the what color are your panties or where do you hide your stash posts. I found i was more comfortable in this forum. I thought my entire life I might be transsexual and I never had the courage to confront it. But because I was not actively transitioning I could not call my a transsexual but I would call myself a crossdressers or a more benign term that has become popular transgender. My anxiety reached a level I could no longer mitigate my inner urge to feminize my self. I started to actively transition and have been diagnosed by a medical professional as transsexual to start HRT.

We have in the past year had those that felt they were transsexual come into the forum and stir up a bunch of crap because to be honest their issues and opinions belonged more in the cd forum than the ts forum. We had a lot of very knowledgeable members get banned, quit and for me I miss their input. I am glad that those farther along than I are still here to give valuable advice about how to proceed or what to expect.

We have a group now that has started actively transitioning within the past year, myself included.We all face very similar issues about health on hormones and effects, marital strife and ways to deal with it. Work issues, personal interactions with friends and families and the list goes on.

I come here to find answers to my issues or what issues I can expect to experience. Others come here to find their answers also and when they get the answers they need, but take no action to act and come back time and time again whoa is me and I cannot take that first step. Well for me that cheapens the forum and in my opinion not what this forum was created for.

[Deborah_UK]

:yt:

Stefan - so well put, I never have the patience to post such a long one, but I really think you've got it in one

:clap: :clap: :clap:

[Angela Campbell]

It has nothing to do with how tranny or not someone is. The transsexual forum is geared towards those that are actively transitioning. There is a crossdressing forum that would be the place for all other posts..

I thought "This forum is for those with the external genitalia and secondary sexual characteristics of one sex, but whose personal identification and psychosocial configuration is that of the opposite sex." was the purpose......where does it say "only for those actively transitioning"?

And to tell you the truth being afraid to take that first step is very much a part of being a transexual. Just because you have made it past that first step does not make you a transexual when you were not before.

[Kathryn Martin]

Kerrianna, quite contrary! If you think everything is "A ok" with your body, and you think that having a penis is just peachy, but you have SRS because it gains you greater acceptance, then SRS is mutilation.

[emma5410]

I thought "This forum is for those with the external genitalia and secondary sexual characteristics of one sex, but whose personal identification and psychosocial configuration is that of the opposite sex." was the purpose......not only for those actively transitioning.

There is a line that everyone who is transitioning, or has transitioned, has crossed. I have stood on both sides of it. I am convinced that those who have not crossed it yet, for whatever reason, really have no understanding of what happens when you do. I think that is why there is a division on this forum. Why those that have crossed it sometimes appear mean to those who have not.

People can only transition when they are ready or run out of options. But going on HRT and living as a woman part time does not mean that you are transitioning. If you think it does then you really have no idea. Only if you cross the line will you understand.

I am not saying this forum should only be for those who are transitioning but if you are not you should appreciate the difference between you and those who actually are.

[Deborah_UK]

I thought "This forum is for those with the external genitalia and secondary sexual characteristics of one sex, but whose personal identification and psychosocial configuration is that of the opposite sex." was the purpose......where does it say "only for those actively transitioning"?



In that case I'm obviously no longer welcome - my external genitalia now matches my personal identification and psychosocial configuration (whatever the heck that means!)

[Angela Campbell]

Exactly the point I was trying to make. The intro explanation to this part of the forum is what I put in my post. It does not mention transition or those who have completed it. Is it really that exclusive? I hope not.

"There is a line that everyone who is transitioning, or has transitioned, has crossed. I have stood on both sides of it. I am convinced that those who have not crossed it yet, for whatever reason, really have no understanding of what happens when you do."

Maybe that is a good reason for them to come here to talk about it.

[Deborah_UK]

But Stefan's reasoning I think addresses that or have I missed something?

But I do question why I'm still here if that's the criteria - but then again the whole site is called crossdressers.com and I'm definitely not a crossdresser, so perhaps it is time to cut loose and not provide the benefit of my experiences to those stepping out on the transitioning path. Let them make their own way?

[Kaitlyn Michele]

jeepers my point was there was already a forum where people that wanted to be "exclusive" could go... and nobody goes there .....

dont be such a bunch of babies...

[stefan37]

I thought "This forum is for those with the external genitalia and secondary sexual characteristics of one sex, but whose personal identification and psychosocial configuration is that of the opposite sex." was the purpose......where does it say "only for those actively transitioning"?

And to tell you the truth being afraid to take that first step is very much a part of being a transexual. Just because you have made it past that first step does not make you a transexual when you were not before.

True not actively transitioning does not necessarily make you not transsexual. But if you are not actively transitioning would you disclose to your family, friends and employer you are a transsexual? See the distinction. For many years as long as I can remeber I thought I might be transsexual. Who in their right mind growing up in the time period I did would want to admit it. Hell it took me 40 years to even admit to myself I was a crossdresser. That said because I was not actively transitioning although I may have thought myself transsexual I could not proclaim to be. If you have true gender dysphoria, but can manage your life and the distress brought on by such a condition, then you probably are transgender, but not transsexual.

Most trans-variant individuals could probably mitigate their distress by adopting traits or dressing of the opposite gender. But because of fear take no action, so how would they know if they are truly transsexual and not transgender. Methods I used to mitigate my dysphoria were no longer working. I will not say those actions I took to relieve my distress did not upset my family, but those actions fell far short of transitioning. I went to therapy and after stripping it all away I took that first step and am now actively transitioning. That has certainly thrown a huge wrench into the cog of my 30 year marriage and I feel real distress from the pain and instability I have created in my wife's life.

Also if you take notice of the second part of the forum description "phychosocial configuration" I take that phrase to mean interacting with others as a member of the opposite sex. Say for instance you say you are transsexual and suffer real distress from your condition. But nobody knows but you. Not your family, not your friends, not your employer. You function daily and in all venues that count, other than going out at night to a club or bar as a male. How can anyone take you seriously when you say you are transsexual but take no action to prove otherwise.

Those of us that do consider ourselves to be transsexual have taken the first step. Hell it took me well over 40 years to get the courage and resolve to take that first step. We all have fears, but to alleviate your distress you must overcome those fears and take action. Have you tried or started electrolysis, worked on changing your voice? Certainly 2 steps that can be undertaken without anyone being the wiser. Have you gotten your ears pierced? Can you wear earring in both ears 24/7 in all social and professional venues. I understand with my last statement their may be professional reasons where earrings would be inappropriate.

That is why there is a distinction made between those that are transsexual and those that are transgender variant but believe and proclaim to the world they are. There are members of this form that believe you need srs to be considered a true transsexual. At the moment I am ambivalent about srs, 1 because it is at least a couple ears in the future and i have much more pressing priorities to get out of the way. I like Melissa's term transitioner and it fits me at this time beautifully. I believe and my therapist and endocrinologist think I am transsexual and I have the medical diagnosis to prove that. But I can not only admit to myself I am transsexual, but to others as well. My family, close friends, employees, and my close clients.

When one can admit to themselves and to those close to them this is what they are then one can be taken seriously as a transsexual.

[Angela Campbell]

So back to the original thoughts...are transexuals "broken"....There seems to be a point where something "breaks". That is when someone has to cross that line and take the path to transition.

[Kathryn Martin]

Ellen, I think you have completely misconstrued my OP. I was born broken, because my brain did not match my body, but it could be fixed.

[Angela Campbell]

I understand. But there was a time when something changed and you made the decision to fix it. If you consider yourself as born broken then I am glad you are fixing it. I am not sure if Broken is the right term for me but something was wrong from birth.

[Badtranny]

I thought "This forum is for those with the external genitalia and secondary sexual characteristics of one sex, but whose personal identification and psycho-social configuration is that of the opposite sex." .

It is.

I think it was sort of assumed that if somebody identified as the opposite sex than they would probably be taking steps to work that out. Notice how Personal Identification is followed by PSYCHO SOCIAL configuration? Doesn't this imply that there should be an effort made to align the mind and the presentation?

[dawnmarrie1961]

Perhaps the reference for "broken" comes from the expression "If it ain't broke don't fix it." Since we seem to have the need to fix or alter ourselves from the original programming it would only be logical to assume that the first edition had some errors in it. Hence we need an upgrade in order to be fully functional. We can be very thankful that our genetic programming wasn't written by the morons over at "Microsoft" otherwise we would be having blue,or pink, screens all over the place!

[emma5410]

I think very few people are born ready to transition. As my therapist likes to say it is a process. Many go through denial, cross dressing etc. At some point after much doubt and soul searching they may come to terms with being transsexual. It may be after decades of being able to cope as a man. For transsexuals there comes a point when all the coping mechanisms stop working. Even then you may not be ready to accept you are transsexual. The fear of losing everything you know and making one of the biggest changes anyone can make in full public view may keep you struggling on. I think if you are transsexual then eventually you reach the point when you can no longer continue as you are. The cost of that is greater than any loss you can suffer.
If you have not reached that point yet it does not mean that you are not transsexual. Going on a TS forum and saying that you are TS does not make you transsexual either. This forum should be open and welcoming to people further back in the process but anyone joining should be ready to answer tough questions.

[Angela Campbell]

It is.

I think it was sort of assumed that if somebody identified as the opposite sex than they would probably be taking steps to work that out. Notice how Personal Identification is followed by PSYCHO SOCIAL configuration? Doesn't this imply that there should be an effort made to align the mind and the presentation?

It would (I think) include taking steps or an effort to align the body and mind. However there may be many varied degrees of this. It may be someone wearing the clothes is one of the first ways someone may do this. It was for me at around 4 years old. If they openly go out in public this way it is a step even further. HRT and SRS are just the most irreversable steps. I think there are many who are transexual and just have not come to terms with it or are frightened to go further, or are otherwise confused. And yes there are some who are not TS and would like to be thought of that way or are confused and think they are. Even the healthcare professionals have a hard time making that determination.

I spent 50 years thinking I could not do anything about it. It wasn't until I came to terms with it and realized I could do something that it seems the train started rolling. At that point I do not think I could stop it.

Perhaps it would be clearer if it said undergoing transition instead of PSYCHO SOCIAL configuration. I don't know.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Sometimes its in the communication...
i am very sensitive to this..

i always said "i WISHED i was a girl"...i never said "I AM a girl">..i took those words with me to therapy and was "diagnosed" as a crossdresser...dont worry be happy and dress!!!...

plus i have always had that sexual tingle around anything trans...it felt shameful and took me years to admit...i came here and posted 1000 times to the cd section before even daring to click the ts section link...
my mathematical and analytical nature drew a hard line and it took me many years to cross it and even allow the thought that i was more than just wishing...

so in a forum of words, way too many times people are not let off the hook for statements that really end up not reflecting their inner dialog, or not reflecting enough true knowledge about what they are going through...

i was ts when i was 30...if i posted here then i would have been drummed out as a fetishist...when i went to therapy thats exactly what happened..

[Rianna Humble]

This is an open forum - for all the world to read and members to post in. The regulars in this forum voted to keep it that way, not even to restrict reading to members of cd.com

Whilst the header quoted clearly states who the main intended audience is, it is open for people who are questioning their status and for those who want to understand more about TS folks.

If you are TS and want a restricted discussion, use the Safe Haven - that is what it is for. No use complaining that it is not well used if you won't make the effort to use it yourself.

No more discussion about who can and cannot post in this forum will be allowed in this thread.

Rianna Humble
Moderator, Transsexual Forums and Safe Haven