Two-Spirit People?

[Taylor Ray]

I just remembered reading something in graduate school about Native American transgendered tribe members. I searched online and found a wikipedia page called Two-Spirit.

Maybe cross dressing can be a manifestation of something valuable and creative, whereas our culture often projects negativity upon such endeavors.

Positivity?!

[Kate Simmons]

Two spirit people are revered by many Native American people but we all have the abilities if we choose to develop them.:)

[Taylor Ray]

"Two-spirit people might have relationships with people of either sex. It is known that in certain tribes a relationship between a two-spirit and a non-two-spirit was seen for the most part as neither heterosexual nor homosexual (in modern day terms) but more "hetero-gender". Partners of two-spirits did not experience themselves as "homosexual."

"Many two-spirit tribe members were healers, storytellers, or seers or the future."

[Leah Lynn]

The plains people had a custom where if a boy showed no interest in the male traditions, i.e., hunting, making war, etc., then he was dressed as a female and raised as such. She learned all the skills of the women, and could be chosen as a bride. Everything but HRT and SRS.
Btw, I'm part Lakota.

Leah

[Julie Gaum]

I have a niece now retired from a very good job with a western city. She had a tall handsome son from her first marriage with a male and a second child from an inserted sperm in a partner--- now litigating visiting rights. Her grandfather, my once father-in-law, married a Cree when he ran a fur trading store for the Hudson Bay Company. Making a short story long: My niece now visits sweat meets of tribes from coast to coast and though only half Cree, the other half Scotch, she identifies completely as a Cree. And "Two-Spirit" is what she says all lesbian Indians are called. I never did ask her if it is the same for gay male Indians but logically it would be.
Made that longer than needed --- sorry.
Julie

[Taylor Ray]

It is great to hear some real-life validation from other forum members for the Two-spirit idea. Sounds like a very legitimate phenomenon in the Native American culture

[Beverley Sims]

There are more discussions about two spirit people and the Indians in earlier threads on this forum.

[AmyGaleRT]

It's definitely legitimate. My fiancee's best friend and her brother are partly of Lakota descent, and they've mentioned the custom of taking newborn babies to be blessed by the wÃ*ŋkte, or two-spirit. They're both open-minded people and they know about Amy, and they don't view it as odd at all.

My fiancee herself feels she has a Native American soul. When I was trying to work out how to tell her, I was considering using the Native American two-spirit concept to explain to her how I felt, and draw a parallel between her belief and mine that my soul is part female. As it turned out, I didn't need to. (I can accept her feeling about herself. I've bought her dream catchers, books on the Cherokee and Lakota languages and Native American mythology, and even a cedar flute.)

- Amy

[Taylor Ray]

There are more discussions about two spirit people and the Indians in earlier threads on this forum.

Thanks Beverly. Found em!

[Taylor Ray]

From what I have read, there are several interesting points about this topic. On the one hand, there is the idea that androgynous types may have a proclivity for healing and intuition. This is attractive to me because I identify as an intuitive.

Another idea is that there seemed to be an acceptance within some of the Native American tribes, allowing transgendered types to be more integrated with the fabric of society. Some in this forum have expressed their interest in being accepted as opposed to rejected by the dominant cultural paradigm.

Which brings me to perhaps the most alluring idea related to this concept, namely, that cross dressing is a manifestation of a healthy, creative instinct. Not, a degenerative perverse instinct.

[Tracii G]

I agree Taylor.

[Bethany_Anne_Fae]

This is one subject that I know very well. A group of natives that I perform with have called me their "two-spirit" for many years now and it is truly an honor as they have no issues with who I am at all :)

[joanne_mi]

I think this has something to do with early Native (mostly Iroquois) tribes being matriarchal. Women were the tribal leaders. or "stewards of the land" back then. So a male person (two-spirit), trying to emulate a woman, was looked upon with favor. Ultimately, their structure ended up being fairly gender equal, due to the fact the male elders were looked upon as great teachers.

Much better than the European misogynistic social structure, which I believe is why we're looked upon as 'freaks' by others in our culture.

[Taylor Ray]

This is one subject that I know very well. A group of natives that I perform with have called me their "two-spirit" for many years now and it is truly an honor as they have no issues with who I am at all :)

Great to hear some real life experiences around this topic, Bethany.

[Taylor Ray]

I think this has something to do with early Native (mostly Iroquois) tribes being matriarchal. Women were the tribal leaders. or "stewards of the land" back then. So a male person (two-spirit), trying to emulate a woman, was looked upon with favor. Ultimately, their structure ended up being fairly gender equal, due to the fact the male elders were looked upon as great teachers.

Much better than the European misogynistic social structure, which I believe is why we're looked upon as 'freaks' by others in our culture.

Interesting points Joanne. I think someone else mentioned the fact that some tribes were matriarchal (in a previous thread on this topic). My extended family structure is definitely matriarchal, something which I never really thought about in the context of my cross dressing.

As far as being looked upon as "freaks" in our culture, I have surely had my share of negative experiences. It's a shame really, when people judge something so quickly. Probably more a reflection of their own narrow-mindedness, lack of creativity, and fear of the unknown.

[Jessica Who]

I've heard about this before, a few people have told me about two spirit people after I was out to them, pretty good stuff

[joanne_mi]

Interesting points Joanne. I think someone else mentioned the fact that some tribes were matriarchal (in a previous thread on this topic). My extended family structure is definitely matriarchal, something which I never really thought about in the context of my cross dressing.

As far as being looked upon as "freaks" in our culture, I have surely had my share of negative experiences. It's a shame really, when people judge something so quickly. Probably more a reflection of their own narrow-mindedness, lack of creativity, and fear of the unknown.

I actually didn't see the other posts on this topic. I have no Native American heritage, but I do a lot of work for them, so I've met some of the tribal elders (both men and women, who still hold some of the old ways). I learned that lacrosse was invented by the early Iroquois to settle disputes. Found it fascinating that a female-led culture would solve disputes with that, rather than blowing stuff up. No expert on this subject, but have met some folks who are. :)

[Tracii G]

I learned about two spirit people from a Navajo friend I grew up with.
His Grandfather was a shaman in the late 1800,s and my friend and I loved talking to him.He introduced peyote to me LOL I got to sit with them and smoke it.
His Grandfather made the whole experience very enjoyable.
He never put the two spirit concept in a context of any gender that I recall.
I respect the American Indian culture for how open they are.Very wise people.
One lady that works at Sally's beauty is from N Carolina and is full Indian I came out and told her I was TG and she said oh you are more than one spirit then thats good you are in harmony then,not many people are these days.
I need to chat with her some more.

[Taylor Ray]

I learned about two spirit people from a Navajo friend I grew up with.
His Grandfather was a shaman in the late 1800,s and my friend and I loved talking to him.He introduced peyote to

Great info, Tracii. I participated in the Native American Church (ceremonies) for two years in Arizona, New Mexico, and Colorado. I learned so much from those experiences! I have never expressed my cross dressing to any of my Native American acquaintances, however, so I enjoy hearing about your experiences.

[Tracii G]

Watch this video http://youtu.be/AYGxZL870ZE
It delves into a bit of history on the subject of two spirit people and how the tribes treated them as special.

[mikiSJ]

One of my favorite Dustin Hoffman movies was "Little Big Man" (1970) where he plays a 121 year old white man recollecting his past including being raised by the Cheyenne. There was a two-spirited Cheyenne character in the plot and while the two-spirit character was played for laughs, it was not because he/she was transgendered.

(It was a good movie that didn't get viewed a lot.)

[Phylis Nicole Schuyler]

The plains people had a custom where if a boy showed no interest in the male traditions, i.e., hunting, making war, etc., then he was dressed as a female and raised as such. She learned all the skills of the women, and could be chosen as a bride. Everything but HRT and SRS.
Btw, I'm part Lakota.

Leah

Amen Leah Lynn. I'm also part Lakota and am very proud of it. I learned Reiki but it appears that I had been doing spirit energy on my wounded team members while I was in the service. Guess that is the healer part of a two-spirit person.