Do you think the Benjamin scale is useful for TS discussions?

[Marleena]

I thought I'd ask opinions on this one, it might be a dumb question so forgive me. The Kinsey chart is still being mentioned and it seems not everybody agrees with it. For example TS people are categorized from levels 4 to 6 and the treatments are different based on intensity.

Obviously a level 6 would be the easiest to diagnose since they'll do anything to obtain SRS and FFS. Maybe we see levels 4 and 5 here more often and HRT might just be enough for them to have a better quality of life. Also, wouldn't level 4's be the most difficult to diagnose since they are so close to the level most people refer to as "transgender".

[Rianna Humble]

Which version of the SOC are you using? In what I believe is the current version (v7) the only mention of Harry Benjamin I see is in setting the historical background and in the bibliographies at the end.

They seem to say that in its time and given its limited scope, Harry Benjamin's work was very useful in determining candidates' suitability for GRC but that now the world has moved on and the needs of Transsexuals, Trangender and Gender-non-conforming people are very different today.

[Marleena]

I was referring to the 1966 chart without the Kinsey info. I thought WPATH and SOC evolved from his earlier work. So this scale is outdated and to be ignored then?

[Kathryn Martin]

The scale is of course useless without the phenomenology.....

[Badtranny]

I think the "scale" is useless.

Who cares where you fall on a scale? My personal opinion is if you're not going to transition than what does it matter? Even if there was a definite test to determine transsexualism and everyone in the medical establishment agreed, it would still be a pointless exercise if all you were going to do is complain on the internet that you can't transition.

There are a million logical reasons to NOT blow up your life with the tranny grenade, and there are NO cogent, rational arguments for actually doing it. But since I've done it and I know how difficult it is, then I automatically respect those that do it, no matter where they fall on anyone's tranny scale. I never consulted "the scale" and I never will. That decision is behind me now, I'm already legal. Some say they are level X transsexual with a bullet, but they won't transition because of whatever. I have no reason to not believe them, but I don't care what they are, I can't relate to them. My experience was as a transitioner. I relate and empathize with other transitioners Somebody may be WAAAAAAAY more trans than me, but if they're not transitioning, then what's the point of even saying it? Who cares about the scale?

'According to the scale I'm really really really transsexual, yet I can't transition, isn't that sad?"

Except the scale as we know it is completely arbitrary and self selecting. I can't imagine a transsexual who DOESN'T transition in some way. Shouldn't the level of transition be the marker?

[Marleena]

Thanks for not avoiding the question Melissa. I posted it after Reine brought it up in another thread. It seems the scale is not relevant anymore.

[Rianna Humble]

I can't say whether the scale should be ignored, the SOC have been revised 6 times since that publication, but they still mention the work that Dr Benjamin did in the early days to provide the first systematisation of diagnosis for who could be a good candidate for GCS.

Like Melissa, I have never referred to the scale that was published nearly half a century ago, and my clinicians have never made reference to it when talking to me.

[ReineD]

Here's the original gender scale if anyone is interested:

http://harrychart.goiar.f-m.fm/Original/OriginalChart.jpg

The brilliance in Benjamin's work is that he was the first to describe a spectrum, beyond just having transvestites or transsexuals. And no one here can say there is no spectrum!

The 6 levels are rather arbitrary but they are useful guides if you also think of them as having a range within each level, plus some overlap between the levels.

I think the inclusion of Kinsey's sexual orientation scale is also relevant because it points out that levels V & VI transwomen are predominately male attracted. It makes sense to me that there should be about the same percentage or perhaps slightly more lesbians among transwomen as there are among genetic women, which is about 3%-5%. I've not studied any of this, but logic dictates that sexual attraction is largely determined by which hormones rule the roost, albeit with some exceptions. For the most part (around 95% of the population), women + estrogen and men + testosterone are opposite-sex attracted. So it would follow that transwomen who no longer have any testosterone, would be attracted to males from a purely chemical point of view? Surely hormones influence more than primary and secondary sexual characteristics?

(obviously I'm not talking about the "fantasy" of being attracted to a certain part of the male anatomy but only when dressed, which frequently happens among levels I, II, and perhaps III)

Just my opinion and nothing more.

[donnalee]

The principal difficulty is having someone make rules for a group they are not a part of, even if there has been close observation by them.Although it may have some value, it should never be considered a hard and fast reason for admitting to or barring anyone from treatment.

[Rianna Humble]

I certainly found the chart interesting, but to me it is deeply rooted in the thinking of it's time, although this is perfectly understandable.

In the context of a transsexual, wouldn't you agree that terms like "homosexual" and "heterosexual" are a little confusing? The clinicians I have seen tend to avoid those terms in favour of asking about sexual attraction.

When you think about it, as I transition and provided who I am attracted to does not change, I would be seen as progressing from one end of the homo/hetero scale to the other. At what point would it actually change? Again, from conversations with my clinicians, they do not seem to believe that there is a very high prevalence of people whose sexual attraction changes.

[dawnmarrie1961]

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://harrychart.goiar.f-m.fm/Original/OriginalChart.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.shb-info.org/hbs.html&h=641&w=954&sz=278&tbnid=7iLn7kAx-ZaxaM:&tbnh=87&tbnw=130&zoom=1&usg=__6vi2w4rhrwezQN7XtIe7L9GSUao=&docid=lj3Sp9E4ZDPwkM&sa=X&ei=TWyQUb_MDeLJ0QGw8YDIBg&ved=0CEkQ9QEwBA&dur=1878

Thought this link might be helpful. It was to me since I had absolutely no friggin idea what a Benjamin or Kinsey scale was. I learn something new every day. I know Kinsey. He had some weird ideas about psychology and sex.Just cuz he published doesn't make his views right. But Harry Benjamin? Don't ring a bell.

[ReineD]

The clinicians I have seen tend to avoid those terms in favour of asking about sexual attraction.


Actually, researchers need to develop and maintain a language that is used consistently by all, since studies build upon prior studies. Since there are so many aspects to gender and sexuality, from a research point of view it makes sense to refer strictly to chromosomes when referring to sexual orientation, since chromosomes are the only constant. "Homosexual" refers to two XXs or two XYs who are attracted to each other, and "heterosexual" refers to an attraction between XX & XY.

In private practice and dealing with someone who is transgender, then it is respectful to use the person's gender identity as the basis for words that denote sexual attraction.



Obviously a level 6 would be the easiest to diagnose since they'll do anything to obtain SRS and FFS. Maybe we see levels 4 and 5 here more often and HRT might just be enough for them to have a better quality of life. Also, wouldn't level 4's be the most difficult to diagnose since they are so close to the level most people refer to as "transgender".

You see the level VIs in the news every day. These are the very young children who KNOW without a shadow of a doubt they are not the sex their parents believe them to be, and this knowledge does not waiver with the passage of time. The level Vs may know later on, perhaps as teenagers, perhaps as young adults, but they also do not waiver in their conviction (I wish I could find the study I read) fairly early on in their lives. I believe that level Vs and VIs are quite rare.

The level IVs are more common, but they have less conviction and IMO they place themselves in a precarious position if they take hormones ... but only because we live in a world that discriminates against people who are gender mixes. This, however, is subjective. If a level IV feels better about having some feminine attributes while being seen and known as a man and s/he either lives in accepting circles or s/he has a thick skin and she takes the hormones with informed consent, then by all means she should. Or, maybe there is a low enough level to not change things too much physiologically? I don't know much about hormones. But, I understand that some the effects of hormones are reversible, so s/he is free to stop taking them if s/he wishes. The danger though is when a level IV goes ahead and transitions. This is when you see the smiles fade sometime after SRS.

[Kathryn Martin]

The actual passage from Benjamins Book and the actual scale he created for the book looks like this:

It must be emphasized again that the remaining six types are not and never can be sharply separated. The clinical pictures are approximations, schematized and idealized, so that the TV and TS who may look for himself among the types will find his own picture usually in between two recorded categories, his principal characteristics listed in both adjoining columns. Type I, Type II, and Type III would belong to the original Group 1. Type IV would be Group 2 and Types V and VI would equal Group 3, as the accompanying Table 2 shows.
The following chapters will make use of the types from I to VI in relating case histories and in establishing a diagnosis of the respective patients. Referring to Table i will then enable the reader to get a somewhat clearer picture of the particular individual and his or her problem. It should be noted again, however, that most patients would fall in between two types and may even have this or that symptom of still another type.
Table 2

Group 1
Type I
Pseudo TV

Type II
Fetishistic TV

Type III
True TV

Group 2

Type IV
TS, Non Surgical

Type V
TS, moderate intensity

Type VI
TS, High intensity

Goiar's re-interpretation of Benjamin's scale is really not so very helpful. If you read the following case descriptions (the phenomenological observations) then you understand that the scale is intended as a "pragmatic and diagnostic tool" but the information is in the phenomenology.

Rianna, the scale summarizes the case studies. The language of the book is of course rooted in the sixties, but the content is not, because it is made up of case studies. The relevance of it, relating it to the original question, is that it is the only work of it's kind that in fact develops an understanding of the phenomena which were observed in Benjamin's practice over decades.

Reine, thank you

[mary something]

Benjamin proposed a biological cause for the phenomenom he observed instead of considering it a mental disorder. He predicted that in the future it would be proven to have a biological etiology and that proper treatment was to eliminate the mind/body mismatch, not to "cure" the person of their delusions. His scale was simply his attempt to give a model explaining how it could be expressed in different intensities in people but the point was to show that it was different variations of the same biological condition.

The significance of his scale is that the entire umbrella he describes became safe from reparation therapy, shock therapy, insulin shock, etc.

[LeaP]

I think the "scale" is useless. ...

I can't imagine a transsexual who DOESN'T transition in some way. Shouldn't the level of transition be the marker?

The scale may well be useless from the standpoint of the "patient" (not looking to argue the term here) versus a medical practitioner.

Your notion of demarcation by level of transition is interesting (although I would have to say it's of no use to the practitioner even if helpful to the rest of us). What do you mean by "in some way" and by "level of transition"?

[Kaitlyn Michele]

accurate enough for what??
thats a big part of it...

Are you "transsexual enough" to have transition improve your quality of life? When you cut through all the mumbo and jumbo, thats the deal...

in practice there are some people that are Supercharged from kindergarten, and others that are repressed into their late age...others are so ashamed (ahem...me) that it takes years of suffering to realize that ANTHING would be better than this and so transition happens...pink fog, family situations, $$, life changes and so many other things work to hide our own identities from ourselves

..only after transition can we actually see and feel that it was itself a good thing..

telling me i was type 4 or type 5 or Surgical/non surgical would have meant nothing to me..

In fact, when i think about it, i was very ambivalent about srs...i've talked about this before...I am sooooo happy i went through with it...i felt so much more complete and authentic after i did it..but before i did i was still buried in shame.....i can imagine a different therapist might have diagnosed me as "non surgical" depending on how i expressed myself......and i would not know what i was missing...or perhaps i'd still be going back and forth in my mind...

I'd sign up for anything that can help us communicate, I think any type of agreed scale can help communicate as long as its really simple..

[kimdl93]

Your notion of demarcation by level of transition is interesting (although I would have to say it's of no use to the practitioner even if helpful to the rest of us). What do you mean by "in some way" and by "level of transition"?

I do think this is a pretty useful concept for identifying oneself on that spectrum. Though I don't consider myself transsexual...(yeah, I know maybe I will see this differently in two years...) it's fair to say that I've made some significant changes in my life akin to some l'level of transition'. I live openly as a transgendered person, something like 75% of the time. No surgery or HRT, but I spend as little time as possible in a male mode. It's arguably an incremental level of transition.

Perhaps that could be characterized as TS, type vi, but honestly I don't much care.

[Marleena]

@ Kaitlyn, thanks for your reply, the thread was based on Reine's comment from Kathryn's " broken" thread. I have asked everybodies forgiveness in advance. I thought the scale was interesting, that's about all I can say about it.



The problem is that many of the gender non-conformists do not feel they belong in the CD section since internally they do not feel they are men. I don't blame them, since panty threads don't address their needs. And some of the transwomen feel as if any talk of non level V or VI transsexualism does not belong here. It's a quandary.

[Kathryn Martin]

telling me i was type 4 or type 5 or Surgical/non surgical would have meant nothing to me..

Of course not, how can it mean anything at all except as the development of an understanding of the phenomenon and treatment options by medical professionals. As Mary said, Benjamin was convinced that there was an underlying biological etiology which would eventually be proven through research. The hijacking of transsexualism by the psychiatric/psychological community by creating a psychiatric pathology around the phenomena, essentially prevented proper research be done for essentially 50 years now.

Additionally, he classified Type 5 and 6 as requiring reassignment surgery as the defining element. The difference between the two is the intensity of that need and consequent requirement. But his case studies show that both would have surgery at some point because the conflict from complete pyschosexual inversion would become overwhelming.

In this sense the scale is not for the "patients"as Lea states. Rather it was intended for medical first line practitioners. The fact that transsexuals were claimed by the psychiatric/psychological industry (including subsequent inclusion in the DSM) sidetracked the issues. Benjamin's book and phenomenology has, however, lost nothing of it's relevance.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

So it helps first line medical people without alot of knowledge better understand patients?
and leave it that?

does that mean basically the scale has no relevance to us in this group?? other than to bring up all the baggage around it?

i think its true to say that altho i didn't know it at the time...my "need" for srs would have only grown into an overwhelming feeling...i can say that now only because i know how delighted i was about the long term outcome..

[Marleena]

what Reine was saying that some in the TS community will not readily accept anybody that is not categorized as a level 6 based on the Benjamin table. I hope she can clarify that.

[Kathryn Martin]

Marleena, I think that is not what Reine said at all, but let's see what she will say.

Kaitelyn, I don't think that it means what you suggest at all. In fact it also provides guidance as to the treatment possible for those that are Type 3 and 4.

[Badtranny]

Your notion of demarcation by level of transition is interesting (although I would have to say it's of no use to the practitioner even if helpful to the rest of us). What do you mean by "in some way" and by "level of transition"?

Well, regardless of someone's place on a chart, they will only transition to their particular place of need. I agree that the chart was not for "us" and it's the doctors that should be arguing about it instead but there are many people on here who insist they are deeply transsexual based on the chart, but they don't seem to have a real need to transition past panties and leg shaving.

They may in fact be absolutely right about who they are and Dr Benjamin himself may meet with them once and declare scientific nirvana at having found the first perfect Transsexual. The problem is, who or what you are is only valid if the world can see it. When I tell people I'm a transsexual (for whatever reason) they don't ask where I fall on the Benjamin scale. They just see me as somebody who is clearly committed to whatever it is I say I am.

What difference does it make if I'm just a 3 or even a 2? I've transitioned. So people can argue all they want about my motives or my transsexual inclinations, I have proven that I was very serious about how I wanted the world to see me.

I have passed the required 12 month RLE and I'm still pre-op so it can now be argued that I am not a real transsexual at all. (again) So after a couple of years of this, I may go all the way, and then regardless of where I fall on the 'spectrum' I will have demonstrated yet another commitment to my authenticity.

To me transition is not about semantics, or feelings, or identification. It is about taking action to change your life. It's about showing people who you really are inside. People say that I'm "trannier than thou" and that cracks me up because I'm nothing of the sort. At the end of the day, I don't really care what someone thinks they are, but this is a forum for transsexuals and I consider myself to be one BECAUSE I've done the hard work, NOT because of how I feel.

So Dr Benji thinks you're a TS? That's great for you, but it would have never been good enough for me. I wanted the world to know who I was.

[Marleena]

I would hope that nobody uses the scale to diagnose themselves. As Kaitlyn mentioned it's common for people to move on on to SRS even if it did not seem like it was required in the beginning of their transition.

[Kathryn Martin]

I am not sure you and I have views that are so different. In fact, according to Benjamins phenomenology you are transsexual. Not in a million years are you Type 2 or 3 more like a Type 5. There, take that:D:tongueout

[ReineD]

what Reine was saying that some in the TS community will not readily accept anybody that is not categorized as a level 6 based on the Benjamin table. I hope she can clarify that.

I meant, some members in this section do not like to discuss things that have nothing to do with transitioning and I don't blame them, really, since we have another side to this forum full of people who do wish they were women or who do see themselves as more than CDing for kicks.

But, transition doesn't necessarily mean having SRS right away either, in my view. There can be a time lag, especially for people (generally) born a generation ago. Baby boomers had no freedom of expression that some of the younger TGs/TSs have today.

Some people have health or financial impediments, while others may take some time and transition in every other way before finally deciding to have SRS. It's a process, but SRS is definitely somewhere in the horizon as an intention and not as a wish. But, practical transition to me means at least living full time as a woman with a legal name change. And if someone can manage to continue living as a man even if part time and not kill him/herself over it, then I question whether s/he is a true TS, even if s/he thinks she is. This is not to say that she is less valid than someone who is a level V or VI. Her needs are just different, that's all.

But, we still have the quandary about the people who do not feel they are men, yet who do not plan on transitioning .. the bigenders or Level IVs (as I see it). They don't like the panty threads, yet it's difficult to keep coming here and saying they are TS when they don't plan on transitioning. The best solution I think is to respect that this section should be for topics revolving around transition or the struggles surrounding transition, and the non-CDs can still have pretty serious threads about being a level IV on the other side of the forum ... and participate here as well of course. I KNOW that we have lots of members who are bigender (or they call themselves middle-pathers), and who do primarily post on the other side. It's not always about the panty threads and the there are so few panty-type threads that they can be easily ignored.

I've been here a long time and I've read at least ten times more posts than the number of posts that I've posted. :p I made an important observation. It seems as if 5-6 years ago, the bulk of the CD side was light-hearted and about CDing fantasies, or wanting to know how to hide the stash from the wife. But over time and with increasing general and self-knowledge, the flavor of the CD section has changed and there are so many threads now that are serious and that talk about the very real concern about having to continue living behind the male mask. So it's really not fair to say that the other side is only just about panty threads, even though I did say that in the other thread. :o


... gosh, this post was all over the place. Sorry for the lack of organization. It's late.

[melissakozak]

The scale had its time and place in our collective history, and it was used as an exclusionary tool for treatment....and it was somewhat arbitrary, but then, the wide variety of transgender behavior, expression and steps of transition are obvious today, and getting HRT is simply not the hoola hoop process it was twenty years ago...

[Breanna Jaqueline]

After a lot of soul searching and research, I am convinced I'm somewhere between 1 and 6 on the chart. ;)

Really, I know I'm not a VI, and it made me wonder if that is part of the conflict that I and others may experience. Being a 'True Transexual' would seeimingly make things easy. One would know without doubt where they fall in life (and on the chart). But being in the middle leaves a sense of not knowing, where exactly you belong, especially due to overlapping categories, and the fact that no two people are the same. However we still try to fit ourselves into the category, it's human nature. The next step is we begin to group others into the categories, leading to comparison among ourselves and the 'trannier then thou' phenomenon.
So how do we stop ourselves from obsessing over these charts, even if they were 100% accurate?

[Marleena]

Breanna the scale seems to cause more confusion than anything else, at least that's what I'm seeing. The gender therapist is the key to all of this. They just decide if HRT will help you with your GD and see if more intervention is required later on. HRT might only be a temporary fix or may be enough to help your quality of life. I'm not an expert on any of this or even close, I'm still learning.

[Jorja]

The Benjamin scale was not intended to be used by Trans people to try and figure out where they are on the scale. It was produced as a clinical guide for the psychologist of the day. It gave them some place to start.

[mary something]

The Benjamin scale was not intended to be used by Trans people to try and figure out where they are on the scale. It was produced as a clinical guide for the psychologist of the day. It gave them some place to start.

Exactly! It simply describes a phenomenon that is biological in nature and is expressed in different individuals at different intensities so that a therapist or psychologist will understand that treatment modalities can vary but that the underlying cause will not be helped by reparation therapy, shock treatment, etc. In other words we are NOT CRAZY lol.

The trouble with trans people trying to apply the scale to themselves is that people are dynamic and labels are static. When a respected member like Jorja speaks I listen because she has successully navigated her path to a point where I think her perspective is invaluable. This perspective is so difficult for those of us to have who are still trying to know what exactly our needs are and how to best accomplish meeting them. The scale describes the destination in a hierarchy that probably only exists in textbooks. Trying to know where you'll end up on the scale at the completion of your journey is about as hard as describing your vacation condo you haven't arrived at halfway on your drive there.

Perhaps it is more useful to simply pay attention to the members of the forums here? You'll find people who have found a workable solution for them, that could probably be classified somewhere on the scale from low to high or in the middle. The scale describes no one in particular, and in it's context notes makes sure to mention that in reality no one fits perfectly in any one category. We are each individuals, with personal needs that vary and the path to fulfillment will vary accordingly.

Instead of tyring to determine where you fit on the scale perhaps it's more helpful to focus on what do you need to do next to achieve contentment and fulfillment in the role that fits you best as an individual?

[Tammy V]

This is something that came out in 1966. I think the medical field has changed quite a bit since then, but he had some good observations, in my opinion.

[LeaP]

The Benjamin scale is a classification system, not a set of diagnoses! Like all classification systems, it is only one view of the world. It is possible to construct classifications of transsexualism in linear fashion (as did Benjamin), using hierarchies, sets, even multidimensionally over time.

Benjamin's linear scale uses two primary criteria – transsexual intensity and sexual preference inversion – in opposing directions. It reflects his view of them as combined phenomena, which was an outgrowth of psychosexual inversion views regarding homosexuality at that time. In that regard it is outdated, though the progression of intensity remains interesting. Benjamin saw primarily high-intensity, adult patients. Although he suspected biological origins, he had no evidence. He did not comprehensively describe the progression of understanding many transsexuals experience. And even for those for whom his scale is valid, it is only valid under certain psychological conditions. His scale represents the times, his patient population, and prevailing psychological theories, even as he added to and changed some of them.

From a medical standpoint, diagnoses related to transsexualism, gender variance, transvestism, and dress/gender paraphilias are those found in the DSM and ICD. And, of course, even those don't fully define transsexualism! One thing that is not useful, though, is a tick the boxes approach to self-understanding in lieu of what is ordinarily a properly conducted differential diagnosis. Mitigation or correction of a condition following diagnosis doesn't automatically follow, either. The diagnosis process also drives out many aspects of a person's history and psychological profile in order to help them come to terms with a course of action.

So classification does not equal diagnosis does not equal therapy does not equal action! All separate concepts.

(Edit) just to confuse things, I should point out that the ICD and DSM are also classification systems! There is no classification of different kinds of transsexuals in either, however. These are disease and disorder classification systems used to guide standards of care and insurance repayment.

[Kathryn Martin]

(Edit) just to confuse things, I should point out that the ICD and DSM are also classification systems! There is no classification of different kinds of transsexuals in either, however. These are disease and disorder classification systems used to guide standards of care and insurance repayment.

In addition, they are psychiatric classification systems and lack actually any hard science. The inclusion of transsexualism as a psychiatric condition sucked every dollar out of medical research into transsexualism and is responsible for the conflation of sex and gender.

Benjamin's work has value because of the phenomenology, which has essentially not changed. Almost all research conducted over the last 50 years is either informed or built on this phenomenology.

[Nicole Erin]

Useless.
Where does it say anything about those of us who dance to the beat of our own drums?

I am a Type Erin - True pain in the butt.

[Marleena]

Great replies! I especially like Erin's new category. Maybe we can create our own scale but then again maybe not a good idea.:D

[ReineD]

So how do we stop ourselves from obsessing over these charts, even if they were 100% accurate?

I don't see people obsessing over charts. I see most people like you, trying to figure out what they want or more importantly, what they need ... are they TS and will need to transition, will they be happy taking the middle road, will HRT be enough, etc. I think the people who know at an early age they are born in the wrong body are rare.

The rest is a problem of definition. I think that transitioners have a different definition for TS (or inner woman) than do people who've no intention of transitioning. Yet, people who will not have SRS, not live full time, not have a legal name change, etc, still identify themselves the same as those who've corrected or are correcting their male birth defects. So I think it is useful to have some way of explaining to people that not all people who identify as TS have the same definitions and the same needs. It would be nice to have numbering system or use different words to identify everyone, but as Lea points out this tends to make the classification linear which is problematic. People have the tendency to believe that 4 is less than 6, that bigender is less than transsexual, etc when it isn't really. They're just all on different planes.

[Badtranny]

I think that transitioners have a different definition for TS (or inner woman) than do people who've no intention of transitioning..

I still want to know why the designation of TS is so important if there is going to be no transition. Why does it matter if you're not telling anybody anyway, and if you do tell a small circle of friends, how are they supposed to understand the difference between somebody like me who risked it all to be true to myself, and somebody who has decided not to transition for whatever reason.

If I met somebody and they said "oh I have a friend just like you, but they don't live full time or nothing" I would not hesitate to tell them that their friend ain't nothing like me. Sorry but if you want to be accepted by me and my friends, then you're gonna have to put some skin in the game.

Am I trannier than thou? LOL

No, but I'm a hell of a lot more honest than someone who lives with secrets.


PS. I'm not talking about CD's, I'm referring to those that insist they are TS yet live the exact same life as a CD.

[Marleena]

Melissa I might not meet your criteria then, but it's okay.:) I'm all for people doing enough of what they need to do to get by. Some people come into this with a lot of baggage and trepidation. I think it's great you're out and doing things the right way, your way. I also respect the postop as well as preop and middle pathers here. Just because somebody is TS doesn't mean they'll fit in here and you just proved it. Luckily we all live our own lives and nobody else gets to decide how we handle it. Some of us will get there eventually and some will be stuck in a rut until their days are numbered. I like that you say what you really feel though without beating around the bush. Maybe I just need to toughen up and show less compassion, I'm not sure. Maybe if I had transitioned in my twenties when I really wanted to I would be postop and I could push others a little more and have some credibilty.

[LeaP]

I don't know, Misty. Maybe it's in the potential direction. There's a difference between you, as a trans woman, and a CD who lives full-time. Maybe because it informs the therapy, direction of treatment, and resolution.

On the points of honesty and risk, I don't know about that, either. I'm not inclined to judge people's circumstances or motives. As for me, I never believed much in the concept of destructive self-sacrifice. Necessity is the only thing I care about ... when I care at all anymore. I've already put my marriage at risk and I suppose, my health. Honesty has been progressive - and hard.

I guess in the end the only real difference between any of us is who is moving, getting ready to, or who is making excuses, deceiving themselves while incurring more damage. If someone isn't in one of those categories (there we go again) then I don't know the point.

[kellycan27]

The Misty scale on transsexualism? :heehee:

[Badtranny]

Melissa I might not meet your criteria then, but it's okay.:) I'm all for people doing enough of what they need to do to get by. .

It's not my criteria in the sense that I'm some arbiter or key-master. It's simply a measure of what I consider to be "like me". I have had a relatively easy time with my transition but it has not been without sacrifice and hard knocks. I feel like people who want to claim ownership of the label without doing the work are basically cheating. We're ALL self identified right? Some of us have proved it. Most of my TS friends are in the midst of divorce because of their transition.

I also think that somebody who lives their life like an average CD yet insists they are TS is looking down their nose at CD's. I have a couple of CD friends that are quite impressive in their presentation and they live fairly openly (not at work ,etc) yet they don't claim to be anything but cross-dressers. I don't have a single fabulous CD friend who has come onto the TS section claiming anything other than who they are. (a few of them are members) I have suspicion that at least a couple of them will pull the pin one day, and they may very well identify as something more than "just" a CD, but they ALL have TS friends and they are ALL very much aware of what it means to really transition. They know they are not transitioning, though a couple of them spend more time out and about than I do and I am freakin' full time. I don't want to say any names but when somebody who lives a double secret life yet demands to be part of the TS community, I feel like it's a slap in the face to my CD friends who are always out representing TG people and have done more for the cause of acceptance than any 20 of the closet cases, TS or not.



I don't know, Misty. As for me, I never believed much in the concept of destructive self-sacrifice. .

Well shoot, me either Lea.

My transition was not without some collateral damage, and I'm currently even looking for another job because of it, but I would never consider it to be self destructive. For me, it was the most constructive thing I'd ever done. You gotta tear down the old before you can build something new and I think all of the transitioners would say, that it was high time for the old to get torn the hell down.

You have to come to that point where you realize you don't want to live this lie any longer. I think most CD's have some pervasive gender issues and the only thing that separates the CD from the TS is the sustained discomfort with being a man. Once I knew what the answer was, I knew I had to do it. For all I knew, I was going to lose everything, but I wasn't happy with everything anyway. You see, the transition isn't an 'option' for us, the transition is THE thing.

[mary something]

I can understand Misty's point and what she means about skin in the game. She has legally changed her name, came out at work, surgeries, etc. She lives it every second of the day.

When you look back at yourself 5 or 10 or even more years ago, do you perceive yourself as having been transsexual then Misty? Latent TS? It's a tricky question I guess but it seems important in some way. All the work that you have done and changes you've made in how you live has to be important, like you said about skin in the game. At the same time though (and not trying to put words in your mouth here) it seems that it would be difficult to answer the question that you weren't a transsexual 10 years ago. Maybe it's more important to use the word transsexual as a verb to give credence and importance to all the hard work of transition? Misty I agree that someone who doesn't live it all the time, take hrt, legally change gender, etc, I can understand why you might say that's an entirely different situation and you don't want your friends to lump you in the same category.

We are all dynamic beings, at this very instance and speck of time that is happening at the moment it's easy to see kinda what labels fit what people, and that makes sense to me to look at it that way. But I'm not sure it's a perfect way of looking at it because I can think of exceptions that don't seem to accurately describe some folks still.

What about a transsexual who is closeted and attempts suicide from the despair of being unable to accept themselves but thankfully lives, and then within the next 10 years transitions physically and legally, weren't they always a transsexual? It could be argued that they definitely had skin in the game too, even before any of the physical transition work began. I would think that someone who has lost their relationship or marriage has skin in the game. Or maybe someone who's entire family has completely shunned them but hasn't transitioned yet, they have skin in the game too. I think the little kid that was beaten for being to "queer" acting because of their transsexual nature has skin in the game too.

Even after making all of those points when I reread Misty's thread I can still empathize with her message and find it hard to disagree with her. I do think that someone who has felt so much despair from their condition that they would attempt suicide deserves at least to have the reason acknowledged though.

I really don't know other than labels suck, anytime you try to describe dynamic beings with static labels you just run into problems. But when you're facing problems and find comfort in having a support group that understand the issues that you face those labels sure are important to find the right people for support I suppose...

In an ideal world I suppose we would just all respect our differences, cherish our similarities, and remember that we all share a similar biological condition that can be expressed in different variations and intensities based upon so many different factors that everyone's gender identity is unique to them.

[Rianna Humble]

I'm sorry, Melissa, I am one of those who believes that you are either born transsexual or you are not TS. This is not just something that we choose to do, it is a biological necessity which stems from a condition at birth.

If being TS is reduced to something that we do rather than who we are, then that legitimises Charles Kane and I do not for one minute believe that that was your intention. After all, CK decided to do something and called himself TS based on what he was doing rather than based on who he was. He never was TS and if he hadn't bought his way past the legitimate medical checks and balances would never have been medically supported to transition. Possibly an extreme example, but that is where I see the "It's what you do that counts" path leading.

I was TS at birth, but had no knowledge of it. I started to become aware in childhood but had no words to describe it. I found out what it was when I was an adolescent, but in those days transition was only for those who earned about 30 to 50 times what I could ever hope to earn (and my first job was relatively well paid). I then got sucked into a spiral of denial with only the occasional episode of CD'ing as a coping mechanism. I was well into my 50's before I hit a brick wall (much of which is documented on this site). However, if we follow your reasoning, I was not transsexual for the first half-century of my life.

EDIT: To try to bring this back on topic, whilst I agree that the study of phenomenology by Dr Benjamin was useful and gave the medical profession an early way to systematise the treatment of transsexuals, I do not think that this is particularly useful for non-medical professionals at present. In particular, the conflation of sexuality and gender which was rife at the time Dr Benjamin was writing to me now detracts from the actual benefits of the study.

[stefan37]

In some ways the above discussion is why I do not like labels. And how someone wants to label themselves is no real concern of mine. Is someone transsexual and not transitioning because of whatever reason. yes probably so. I thought most of my cognitive life I may actually be transsexual. But there was no way I was going to admit that to anybody, not even to myself. I did consider myself a crossdresser and again the only one I would admit that to was myself and my wife. It took a long time for me to accept the fact I was transsexual and I needed to transition, and that was a relatively short time ago. Once I was able to admit that I could take action. How transsexual am I? or how would someone else classify my ? I do not know nor care. I am riding the train down the tracks not knowing where I can jump off. At least it has slowed down a bit and does not seem like a runaway train as it did before I started therapy or hrt. I still have a ways to go before I feel comfortable with myself.

I like the term Melissa coined, transitioner as it describes me the best and it is a term most people can wrap their head around. When I disclose to others I tell them I have had gender issues my entire life and I am actively transitioning. those that are closest to me and it includes employees and clients have told me they have noticed a more positive vibe and want to know why and at this time I will disclose to them what I am doing. But rarely will I tell them I am transsexual.

I felt more comfortable after a period of time in this subsection of the site. It was a place for me to explore what I felt and what others are going through and similar issues I may encounter and ways to handle them. It was a godsend and I got some really valuable knowledge. This issue of what describes a tranny has been raging here for a long time, and at times has gotten so heated members have left in disgust or got banned. We have had very vocal members proclaim that to be a true sexxual one needs to remove their penis at all costs in lieu of other methods to help us integrate. We have members now that feel that way but they are more subtle in their delivery of the message. Personally for me posts about how I am transsexual, but I can not take any action because of whatever and I want to continue living as a male has no value to me. It does not address the issues daily I face or the ones I will in the future. I can and do respect anyone that can mitigate their dysphoria and not have to undertake transition, or those than go half way or take hrt and live as a male. I interpreted the description of this
subsection to include those that are exploring transition, are actively transitioning and include both pre op and post op individuals. Why would anyone want to say they are transsexual and take no action to alleviate their condition. It is a mystery to me and again their posts hold no value for me. Their posts would actually benefit many in the crossdressers section. I can not see this issue resolving itself anytime soon, but I am in agreement with Melissa that this section should contain posts about people that are actively transitioning or have transitioned. I would also include in that previous statement those that are exploring if transition is right for them. But at some point we have to either continue to live our lives in distress or pull the pin and throw that tranny grenade into our lives. In many cases some aspects will blow up, but many will resolve themselves and we will experience a greater quality of life.

Maybe instead of calling ourselves transgender, transsexual, non-committal or a rabbit. we should designate ourselves and ourselves only as dreamers, fence-sitters, transitioners, or post-op transitioners. Where we exit the train is a personal issue and is individual to that person.

Getting back on topic using the Benjamin scale, your dysphoria and the action you take is related to the intensity of your discomfort. And as my own experience has proved to me that discomfort can lessen or intensify at different periods in our lives. I will say it has been a recurring theme and certainly true in my case that the older we get the more intense the distress can become until the only option left is to jump off that cliff and begin actively transitioning.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

You are or not TS...i agree Rianna...

There are different thinkers here...intuitive, pragmatic, scholarly, emotional, practical, impractical!!... all looking at different angles...the scale reflects thinking that has strengths and weaknesses...the idea of types of TS is problematic..

++++
it is important to feel a connection to others...having things in common is one thing, really connecting with someone is another
transsexual women that are living as women(as well as those truly working towards it) have a special bond...do you have a friend that you "just get"?.....thats what it is..if you've had srs, or changed your name i just get it...

If you dont transition, you simply cannot have the connection that transsexual women feel while they go through this..

generally speaking the transsexual condition will lead you to live a woman's life, work towards living a woman's life, or suffer greatly for not living it, usually suffering more and more ..in scale terms perhaps this depends on intensity...but in day to day human interaction, there are no scales..

anyone that feels confident they can negotiate or manage the intense transsexual condition as a man says things that don't resonate with transsexual women
...they communicate their totally valid ideas, but when they do, it just doesnt connect...
in a spreadsheet we say "these numbers don't tie up"....

if you want to get really practical about it, if you are negotiating with your life and insist you are transsexual, one of the costs in your cost/benefit is that some people won't accept that you are transsexual..including transsexuals...that may or may not matter you
its up to you!

its not meant to make others feel bad...its just the way it is......in this forum its just communication... i cant live your life...i dont want anyone to suffer, and when people say they are ts, and dont transition i tend to feel sorry for them because they are either identifying themselves inauthentically, or there is a really good chance they are going to suffer greatly...

so to say there are low intensity transsexuals that dont transition is something that may make sense and have value to people, but the connection with the folks that live as women will not be there

and fwiw everything i'm saying can be true of bigendered people, low intensity people staying in difficult marraiges..all those connections exist..and i can't have those connections...

finally, we connect with others over all kinds of things...do you play guitar??? me too!!!!! Lets jam!!!
do you watch Hannibal?? I loooovvveeee that show!!!! etcetc

[Angela Campbell]

I think one problem with the scale is it attempts to measure state of mind. State of mind is a fluid thing that changes in direction and intensity. The mind also denies, lies, and uses all kinds of tricks to attempt to hide things that are painful or uncomfortable. No one = not even the smartest doctors - will ever fully understand the inner workings of the mind.

This scale is useful to try to place where the mind may be at a given point in time but can never be completely accurate as we will always try to manipulate it without knowing we are doing so. I think it was more or less just a way to attempt to explain the phenomena as Dr. Benjamin was seeing it.

[Rianna Humble]

I feel that I ought to mitigate my last post in this thread. Although I believe that you are born TS or are not TS, I do make a difference between those who know that they are TS and those who act on that knowledge.

My standpoint though, means that I will not say to someone in the second camp "You should not be here amongst us transsexuals" but will rather encourage them to decide whether they need to transition at this point in time.

However, if someone insists that they are "out" as an MtF TS or are transitioning but is still content to spend a majority of the day as a man, then I will challenge why they are telling people that they are TS (but not whether they are).

[Marleena]

Great replies here. For the record I was diagnosed and went through the proper channels with the help of my support group. I did not buy my way in or take any shortcuts. I don't feel the need to repeat it again so there it is. I have started the process of transition but I do not want to BE TS. I'm struggling and admit it. Unfortunately there is a divide between even the preops and postops at times.

[Tammy V]

People spend a lot of time worrying about definitions or classifications. I saw one definition of transsexual as being "one who transitions" and it makes sense. Some can sit around and speculate about what they are or what they wil be defined as while never actually doing anything. It doesn't matter and no one should do more than they Have to do in order to transition, be treated for GID or whatever. Just be yourself....

[mary something]

If you dont transition, you simply cannot have the connection that transsexual women feel while they go through this..

generally speaking the transsexual condition will lead you to live a woman's life, work towards living a woman's life, or suffer greatly for not living it, usually suffering more and more ..in scale terms perhaps this depends on intensity...but in day to day human interaction, there are no scales..



Kaitylyn thanks for saying this so eloquently. "lead you to live a woman's life" is a tricky phrase when you try to define it. I don't see a lot of people on here saying that their goal is to lead a transsexuals life, whether that's what they are doing or not. I can't define what a woman is in one cogent statement without using the word penis or making a comparison to men, my gender therapist couldn't either. All someone can do is decide what kind of woman they are, what is important to them, and do their best to accomplish it in the short time we've got with whatever resources that we have. I think that's why Oprah is a bajillionaire.

[LeaP]

Well shoot, me either Lea.

My transition was not without some collateral damage, and I'm currently even looking for another job because of it, but I would never consider it to be self destructive. For me, it was the most constructive thing I'd ever done. You gotta tear down the old before you can build something new and I think all of the transitioners would say, that it was high time for the old to get torn the hell down.


I don't think I was clear. What I meant by destructive self sacrifice was NOT taking action and sacrificing themselves for someone else - usually one's spouse. I don't really know, of course, but I suspect for most it's an excuse. My suspicion is stronger when the spouse doesn't even know and thus had no say.

Self sacrifice has its place. I just don't think this is one of them.

[mary something]

I agree with your point Lea about destructive self-sacrifice not only isn't useful but can be used as an excuse, especially if the spouse doesn't know. That seems valid to me because I personally have done this in the past (she knew). A person at this stage or state isn't ready for transition and is partially in denial maybe? I suppose the reasons can vary but a stronger sense of self-autonomy and acceptance is needed to progress from this state (speaking for myself only).

[noeleena]

Hi,

We have the basic two camps female or male. why did the Indians & a few other peoples accept with out ? that if one was different they were accepted & given an office that allowed that person to be them selfs wether male or female or both. yes of cause there were no strings were there .

= money.=


Today its about money so the Dr's & Psychs are on the take, now lets change this ,you have the money you ask i need this hormones & i need this type of surgery, okay i said ...NEED... not i wont . now then so since you are paying your money can you get what you need. if not why not,

Its your body your money your life or is it , it seems to me you dont have a say or can control your own life.& do what you need to.

Have i missed something here, maybe the dreaded gate keepers,

Heres the difference, I asked for meds did blood work checked as good no health issues, i asked for surgerys & not the first time ether iv had a good few, so i was prep'ed had surgerys over sea's of cause, you see i asked for what i needed & i payed for them. so what have i missed in all this i had a need & was given what i needed, no ?'s were asked no time spent talking about what ever,

Now i did not abide any of the different levels of intensity of are you trans & to what degree it never came into it, nore needed to.

Now before any one says hang on your intersexed, forget that i never brought that up not a word.

My opening words were in all comunicsion were im a woman im going to live as one & i need help in meds & surgerys, . nothing more was ever said by Dr's or myself,

Okay ill concede i did things differently , so that being the case, could you do similar wether your trans or intersex or you must go through the hoops, what ever,


...noeleena...

[Rianna Humble]

Sorry, Noelena, what does all that have to do with the Benjamin "scale" phenomenology and whether unqualified people should try to apply it to themselves or to other members?

[arbon]

"Do you think the Benjamin scale is useful for TS discussions?"


No, I don't think it is at all.

[mary something]

it's useful for creating a discussion ;)

[Nicole Erin]

One thing I do not get about the benjamin scale or WARPATH or whatever they call the TS diagnosis scale this year -
So you have to go to several therapy sessions to get a letter to start HRT, go through a year or two of THAT while living full time before SRS.
BUT - when it comes to something silly like depression, they just hand out meds and disability for that like it is a free-for-all.
Or what about how frivolous doctors are about diagnosing kids with ADD, aspberger's, autism or whatever they call it now (and you thought us gender-variant folks had a lot of labels?) I have seen it where doctors are trying to label kids as young as TWO YEARS OLD as "autistic". Way to ruin a kid's life, doc. Kids don't want some label that basically puts them into a category that once carried a now-derogatory term starting with an "R".

But full-grown ass adults have to go through hell to correct things best they can. They say they don't want people to ruin their lives but if transsexualism becomes way more popular, one day they will hand out hormones and SRS as easily as they hand out prozac to any adult who isn't happy as a hog eating slop.

[ReineD]

Nicole, that's because there are people who want to alter their bodies for other reasons than having gender dysphoria. Or they believe that the euphoric feelings they have when expressing a target gender IS "feeling like a woman", especially when they fantasize about having sex with men. How many times have we seen members come into this section and ask about taking hormones to "just get some boobage and softer skin", but without affecting their libido?

The goal is to have the smiles post-transition continue and not slowly fade away as reality sets in. You've heard of the stories of people who are disappointed because transition didn't "make" them feel the way they thought it would ... this is because these people weren't women to begin with. I've seen it.

[mary something]

Nicole I certainly understand your frustration about the amount of hoop jumping that we are put through as we try to find a way to improve our lives. Years ago when I first decided to pursue gender therapy I had to wait months for an apt, which was very frustrating as I had of course waited until the need was quite pressing before making an apt. In my area if someone wants to pursue hrt with an endo's guidance the average time between making the apt and being seen is about six months (I have about a month of waiting left, thank goodness).

I did want to address the part about diagnosis of children simply because in the past I have worked with children with special needs. Federal law requires each state to establish a program that identifies at risk children and provide services for them in the belief that early intervention is key to these children learning the skills necessary to begin school typically around age 5. The series of well baby checkups that parents are expected to attend throughout the first couple years of life is specifically designed so that a professional can monitor whether the child is hitting their developmental milestones at the appropriate times, and also of course for immunization reasons. Children learn language and other social skills as a foundation for which all their future learning is based upon during these years before school begins. If a child is struggling with language for example and they are exposed to intervention at age two then there is three years for that child to catch up to there peers before beginning school. As counter-intuitive as it sounds it is considered sound practice to label a child at this early of an age that way when they begin school they don't get labeled because they are so far behind their peers.

I share your concern that all people regardless of gender expression should receive the same amount of compassion and priority in their care.