Witness Me or The Roots of Passing

[Kathryn Martin]

Witness Me or The Roots of Passing
A few days ago I commented on of these threads on “passing” .

I wanted to pick up on this theme because how we think of it reveals much about who we are. Make no mistake that passing confers the privilege of submerging into the mainstream of society for those who succeed. But what does passing actually mean?

It is repeated in post after post and comment after comment, that passing is about dressing appropriately female, ensuring that your physical features resemble that of a woman, hence FFS, that your secondary sex markers are properly developed hence breast augmentation, in short that manly features become obscured to enable the world to believe who you are.

In facial surgery for instance people attempt to diminish a prominent nose, remove a brow ridge, shave a jaw, point a chin, add cheek implants to lend roundness to the face etc. Time and time again we hear that FFS is “the best investment” . The reason why many believe this is the most important thing is that without it they feel that the world will not believe that they are who they are. The result is, as previously mentioned on another thread that they tend to think of passing as a perfection of a ruse. This is never said out loud but unspoken behind the praise of FFS and other means is the view that without such “tricks” the world will not witness them.

No one ever seems to think that being female is really not about creating an impression, succeeding in a ruse, making people believe.

Passing is such an interesting thing. I have a friend and she has really lost in the genetic lottery. Her shoulders are wide as a brick house, her torso is shaped like a V, she has no hips, she sprouts facial hair and her voice is as gravely and deep as any truck drivers'. And!!!!! she is a a genetic female. She never gets mistaken for a man, ever. In fact she exudes femaleness.

So let me ask you are you witnessed like my friend? And why are you witnessed like her or not?

[Angela Campbell]

I cannot say I pass. I have been mistaken for a GG on several occasions though. I have not begun hormones nor had any surgeries. A lot is genetics but it is also how you carry yourself. How you stand, walk, use your hands and many other things. Yes there are many physical things that give us away but the manner in which you carry yourself is the most important.

[kellycan27]

For me passing is reflecting who I am and having that reflected back at me. To say it is a ruse would imply that it's a lie or trickery as put in the OP. I am and have always been a woman... even when I didn't look like one. ( As far as i was comcerned) So where would be the ruse? A GG may get breast implants, a nose job, lipo, etc.. Does this mean she's trying to fool people or present as something that she is not?

[mary something]

I agree that how someone views passing is indicative of their attitudes regarding what is female and what is not. It's not very pc to say this but sometimes it seems that when someone's entire focus is only on the visual it is an indication to me that they are thinking about how to find a solution to their problem from their male persona's point of view. I know it's somewhat stereotypical but to me it seems a very male type of thinking to only focus on the visual. Of course it is important to look as female as possible, but being a woman is a lot more than having boobs, long hair, and a skirt. I suppose a good example would be makeup, and I'm not criticizing the theatrical drag look, but sometimes you get the feeling that people see it as a mask instead of going for a more natural look (that I think helps you blend in much better). In short I think posture, how you occupy your space, voice, knowing what is appropriate to wear and when, all these little things are just as important as hip to shoulder ratio's and such. Of course all I can say is that most of my friends are middle aged moms, so I'm sure my cohort influences my views on this.

I just read your post again Kathryn and it occurred to me that a woman who KNOWS she is a woman, even if she could play linebacker for the Cowboys, won't get misgendered if she has that aura about her of knowing.

[Michelle.M]

I wanted to pick up on this theme because how we think of it reveals much about who we are.


Hmmm . . . I don't know about that, but something tells me that the answers this thread begets will reveal much more than we bargained for.


The result is, as previously mentioned on another thread that they tend to think of passing as a perfection of a ruse.

Who is "they" who seems to think passing is a ruse? Certainly we are not speaking of transsexuals, are we?


This is never said out loud but unspoken behind the praise of FFS and other means is the view that without such "tricks" the world will not witness them.

Are you saying that FFS is simply a trick?


No one ever seems to think that being female is really not about creating an impression, succeeding in a ruse, making people believe.

Again, of whom are we speaking? Who is "no one"? Certainly we are not speaking of transsexuals, are we?

[Marleena]

After re-reading the thread I deleted my replies. Kelly's reply nailed it anyways..

[kellycan27]

If we look at passing as trickery or the perfection of a ruse .. Couldn't the same be said about transsexualism as well?

[Kathryn Martin]

Kelly, that is of course not at all what I said. Passing is no ruse because passing is simply a result of authenticity or........


I just read your post again Kathryn and it occurred to me that a woman who KNOWS she is a woman, even if she could play linebacker for the Cowboys, won't get misgendered if she has that aura about her of knowing.

Mary, keep talking about this.

NO one seems to want to answer my questions really. Are you witnessed or not and how are you witnessed or not seems to have been the question.

[mary something]

Making some popcorn hun :), you go on ahead I'll catch up later


If we look at passing as trickery or the perfection of a ruse .. Couldn't the same be said about transsexualism as well?

Excellent question Kelly, many people think exactly that

[Marleena]

All I know is this thread made me feel crappy about myself. Does any TS woman want to feel or look like a man in a dress? My wife told me I still look like a man and that hurts..

[mary something]

Wives can be more than a little catty about that kind of stuff Marlena, just remember they are likely the last person to be complimentary sometimes

[Badtranny]

I just don't want people to think I'm a dude.

They've looked at me that way for my whole life and I will have as many procedures as it takes to rectify that.

[Lynnmorgan451]

I just don't want people to think I'm a dude.

Meeeeee tooooooo....

I would get ffs if it was in the budget but nagunna happen this decade!

[sandra-leigh]

Are you witnessed or not and how are you witnessed or not seems to have been the question.

I do not know what you mean by "witnessed" in this context. Your phrasing reminds me of evangelical Christians who ask whether someone has "witnessed The Lord" (e.g., at least observing "healings" and "speaking in tongues" or the like, if not having it actually happen to oneself.) I don't expect that is the sense you used "witnessed" in, but I do not recognize at the moment what other sense you might mean.


No one ever seems to think that being female is really not about creating an impression, succeeding in a ruse, making people believe.

My second-last gender therapy session, I was talking to my therapist on matters related to this. I am still in the process of trying to figure out what I want to or need to do with regards my gender identity, but at times I "beat myself up" to some degree about how even though I have the opportunity as I am not working, I am not presently pursuing voice therapy, or thinking seriously about FFS, or the like. I said to her that those things do not feel appropriate for me at this time. I said that those matters had to do with external transition, but that over the last while I have been concentrating on my internal transition. That I feel that I could pick those up afterwards when/if they start to feel like a natural part of me and my progress. And that although I could make those changes on how other people see me, that more important is to experience the internal shift to feel really female inside myself. Once I know that for myself, I can make the externals follow.

----
Expansions:

(A) I know "voice therapy" is not a commitment, but it hasn't been important to me as yet. I have two therapies going at the moment, plus living with my depression, plus some other medical issues, plus physio and massage. For me, voice can wait.

(B) Yes, I might be "commitment shy" on some of this.

(C) Okay, so I'm frustrated and flustered and hurting because my breasts are decidedly receding even though my male hormones are quite low and my female ones are pretty high. Yes, breasts are an externality. So I'm not purely internally. So I'm human (or nearly so :o ), with human contradictions. So sue :D )

[Kathryn Martin]

I used the word witness, because genetic women are always witnessed and mirrored by their social counterparts as ....women. The greatest distress over the years prior to transition apart from not being born with the right reproductive configuration was that my nature, who I was was neither witnessed nor communicated to. It is in this sense that I use the word.

Consequently, since transition and surgery my senses are on high alert on how I am witnessed. I have had electrolysis, have grown some boobs and changed my hairstyle. I have not had FFS. I have had no voice training and speak naturally. Yet I am witnessed for who I am even though many of the people I deal with know my history. Women come to my office for my advice because they want a woman's advice (I always ask what made them select me as their lawyer and this is what I am told). I am subject to male put down and male gaze. I get flirted with and hit on. Younger women ask me to share my child raising experience, recipies and fashion advice. So the question asked here is a natural one especially in the context of what makes us pass. Is it our appearance, or is it so much more than that.

[Marleena]

Wives can be more than a little catty about that kind of stuff Marlena



Oh I understand that Mary but there have been other incidents. Confidence is a big part of this and it gets shaken pretty easily when you start down this road (at least for me).

[mary something]

I agree Marleena, confidence is everything. Just remember the SO has a vested interest in her comments, that's all. I've had mine shaken before too, and not making light of it because it is an awful feeling.

Kathryn- all I can say is that the answers to this question will vary widely and all are equally authentic to the person saying them. We each have our own world-view and no matter how much pain that perspective will cause us we won't change until the pain of uncertaintly is less than the pain of living with a world-view that doesn't work. Or maybe I just don't want to explain how linebackers can pass as women ;)

[Ceri Anne]

While is is true that there are GGs who are obviously female, yet do not allude many of the traits we recognize as feminine, none the less they are genetic females. Those of us who have male bodies and female spirits have to strive to achieve passing by covering our maleness and exaggerating our femalness the best we can to fulfill our expressive soul. I have broad shoulders, am 51, and to be honest a lot of women my age have similar builds, yet I work harder than most females to present myself in the best light. You will notice that most GGs dress much more casual than most passing or almost Cds. Again, they do not have to present female to be female, we do.

[TeresaCD]

A more experienced girl I spent time with recently put it this way - we work hard to remove markers that make us obviously male
Like, our facial features, body shape, voice, hands, movements etc.
She aims to blend in when out in public, in that no one gives her a second glance.
I am sure this is a confidence thing, and about practice and care.
I guess it's a matter of how much you care what others think, as well as taking pride in your appearance
I know for me, I want to present well enough so as not to insult or embarrass other girls by my presentation.
And I want to look good, as good as I can.
I know some have less striking features, so it is (or can be) easier.

[Barbara Ella]

I like the original question of are you witnessed, and why. But to me this implies that one is aware that others have "witnessed" which implies a "passing" of judgement with a resulting approval. This is something that I think is very difficult to know. Surely it cannot count if your friends who know are witnessing. And you cannot tell if the strangers passing approve or are even aware. Passing unnoticed is surely not being witnessed, even though it is something that is sought. When meeting new people, if they make you as a dude, but accept you as a female, and behave accordingly, maybe this comes close to witnessing, but I fear true witnessing is when you come across in such a manner that they do not even think before acting on anything...a very difficult feat. A feat that cannot be sensed, and could be defeated if you question anyone about it (confidence or a lack thereof is self defeating). I fear knowing this is something that requires an immense amount of field experience/time.

I love the concept of being witnessed as a more in depth level than passing. I have not been witnessed, probably never will, and am working very hard on the concepts for passing/blending, which I think must be mastered before one can begin to develop/gain that aura of confidence that drowns out the questions in the minds of those watching.

I am learning just from the answers and discussions here.

Barbara

[mary something]

I have been thinking about your question of being witnessed Kathryn, and I believe that the core element of presentation that precludes passing is a lack of shame. I'm not describing a lack of shame as an ostentatious presentation designed to gather attention, but something much deeper. We live in a patriarchial society, surely no one would disagree with that statement. The way our society enforces behavior with males is with shame. Witness the amount of projection that can be seen on these boards alone when closeted individuals describe the anxiety and shameful feelings that they experience due to their gender variance. Transsexual children learn shame at an early age, the same age that they absorb our society's lessons that being male is a privilidge that must be protected, and they learn to hide their deepest feelings behind a masquerade for safety. Sometimes it is a masquerade of masculine accomplishment, ie the soldier who transitions after his service is over. Sometimes it is a masquerade of professional accomplishment, ie the lawyer who transitions at the peak of their career. Of course eventually they realize that no matter how much they accomplish the internal struggle never abates because of external accomplishments.

Internalized shame creates a palpable aura about someone that can be felt at an emotional level. To borrow a line from a famous Justice I might not be able to define what someone that is afflicted with shame will act like, but I certainly know it when I see it. Shame is one of the most powerful and destructive human emotions, representing literally a desire of self-annhilation. Living a lifetime of shame creates an impression on a person that can be very difficult to untangle, even after the cause of shame is removed the habits and world-view that has grown around this internalization still exists and is reflected by a persons habitus for all to unconsciously recognize.

Women aren't ashamed to be women. They might be ashamed of their full figure, and subsequently exagerate their posture. They might be ashamed of their height, and choose to never wear heels. But they are not ashamed to be women.

[arbon]

I don't like the word passing. I'm not pretending, acting, trying to pass myself off as something

Being witnessed like you friend - always having my gender reflected back correctly - well always, no. But sometimes yes. Other times people see me as a man, at some level. Usually it shows through when I am mis-gendered by someone that does not know me, and its really not very often anymore. I think most often though people see me as somewhere in the middle, they are really not quite sure where to place me. That's the vib I get a lot. Its kinda like being in line at McD's and noticing people ahead of you are getting thank you sir, or can i help you ma'me and so forth. But when it comes to me the sir's and ma'am are usually missing. I notice that a lot. Or people will have to pause before using a gender pronoun.



Why am I not witnessed as a woman as your friend is- well lots of reasons I guess, some physical, vocal,and I live in a place where I am pretty well known. Its hard to escape the guy I was for 40 years.

I'm just not there yet, and who knows if I ever will be.

[sandra-leigh]

Women aren't ashamed to be women. They might be ashamed of their full figure, and subsequently exagerate their posture. They might be ashamed of their height, and choose to never wear heels. But they are not ashamed to be women.

Some are ashamed to be women. Some cultures encourage women to be ashamed of being women. Some religions currently or historically teach that women are lesser beings, of lower worth. Some trace back to the Biblical story of the Garden of Eden and say it was Eve's fault that humans were kicked out of Paradise, and thus every woman's fault and that that is a shame that should never be relented of on Earth. Some cultures kill baby girls for being female; some have gone past the actual killing, but even now apparently will have parents tell their daughters how ashamed and disappointed the parents are that the daughter didn't have the decency to be born male. Society can be a real crock sometimes. Parents can be a real crock sometimes.

With regards to the matter of how I am "witnessed": nearly everyone refers to me as male upon hearing my voice or seeing my face (even when I am fully dressed, with makeup and wig.)

Someone posted a link to an article showing the facial differences between male and female: I fell in-between on many of the items, but not "female" on anything, and a small number of items (e.g., depth eyes are set back) are enough on the male side to taint the neutrality of the other parts.

As to how I am treated: it depends on the person to some degree. In groups of strange males, some do consciously avoid me -- and those kinds of people tended to avoid me before I knew I was a cross-dresser. Guess I give off a vibe that some interpret as "gay". Some avoid me without being aware of what they are doing. I can tell that for a long time people (males especially) have glanced at me and interpreted me as somehow not being a "real" guy -- as being "male" but not "belonging" to males.

Females... tend to treat me being partly female but more guy, but also as being somehow mentally excluded from being "male". For example making categorical statements about "men", and then at some point later remembering who they are talking to and then rather than saying "Well, most guys, but not you", instead saying something like "oh, but you don't count as a guy."

The overall public, in public... tends not to react to me any more than they react to other passers-by of no particular threat or interest.

If "passing" consists of most people treating you as if everything is normal for you to be as you are, then I've got that down, at least in public. People tend to react on the "hmmm, this is a little odd" side in washrooms.

[Rogina B]

I am going to take the word "witnessed" to mean "seen,or viewed as". And I believe it is all about "personna". The "projection" of oneself into life and the interactions with others. A truly transitioned woman has developed her personna to the level that her birth gender is never questioned or even thought of.

[noeleena]

Hi,

Well that all may depend on if the person concerned is female to start with, that then does not say or mean every female does pass or look like a female . many of us dont look like females from our facial features, that of cause does not say we are not female at birth,

To take this further of 10,000 of those of us who are intersex the ? is then how many of us are female or how many are male, then you look at each one & can you tell which one is female just by how the person looks, you see theres more to this than the look.

Again im very aware of what its like being female & not looking like a female, so to pass judgment on any of us on a perception thats based on how we look is to say the least is very wrong a put down & non acceptance because we dont mesure up to someones idear of how we should look in thier eyes,

who here has gone through the & im asking only females or those like myself posible 3 of us who have been rejected on that premise very very disheartning very embarrissing yet we live with it every day all of our lives, thats why we have to be so bloody strong to live a life & get through it.

Yes most of us are given acceptance some of us are looked at sideways, so its a very different set of who are we, & why are we this way. //

...noeleena...

[mary something]

Sandra-Leigh, I agree that certain cultures do promote a view that women are lesser than men. That is what I meant when I said that we live in a patriarchial society. And some women internalize this message to a greater extent than others for sure. The key point I was trying to make could be highlighted that while those women perhaps do feel that misogyny is justified I doubt that they allow those feelings to influence their interaction with other women. I grew up in a regional culture that is exactly like what you describe, but let me assure you that while the women might acknoledge the "men folks" right to male privilidge, if another woman gets that uppity with them they will put her in her place quickly.

Or to put it another way, just read a bunch of ftm forums and ftm blogs and notice the differences in the narratives compared to the standard mtf. Why do ftm's transition at such a younger age typically? Why do mtf's feel the need to "prove" themselves so long typically before succumbing to their own nature? I don't believe that biologically their situation is any different than ours, simply in reverse, a male brain in a female body. The differences are cultural, and culturally men and women are treated quite differently in our society.

It is impossible to see a privilidge that has always been there, and male privilidge is everywhere. Even when one gives up their male privilidge (as Kathryn expressed so well when she stated that she is subject to male gaze and so forth) the effect of having embraced it in our psyche for so long lingers unless either someone deconstructs their personality and reconstructs an integrated one with both persona's or if they simply were never able to construct a male persona that was well rounded enough to have any male privilidge.

maybe instead of all the philosophical prattering a couple songs that speak clearly to our situation instead?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQ5isLBu_To

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2L6XJOjCaAE

[Kaitlyn Michele]

So let me get this straight...

Using advanced medical procedures on your face and body (and even voice) to help you pass with others is often a "ruse"..
but using advanced medical procedures to change your hormones or make your body congruent in the genital area is a fundamental requirement ...
let me guess which advanced medical procedures you've taken advantage of and which you didnt...

i find the idea that people that get ffs tend to think of the "ruse" of passing to be breathtakingly self serving and hypocritical..

my genitals are congruent with my gender...so is my face.

many times the post srs transitioners look at folks talking about srs and its obvious that some people simply don't understand the value of srs...its the whole transition doesnt start until srs thing...its a bit of a rough way to say the benefits of srs are transcendant...and its not easy to describe them to folks that have not experienced the procedure, and lived a life after the procedure..

the same goes for ffs... the benefits are not easily describable in words...i lived as a woman pre ffs and after...the benefits are transcendant as well...they are no more of a ruse than having an inverted penis is ruse..

Having the internal perfect understanding of your own womanhood is a neccessary condition for a great quality of life, but being delusional about what goes on in others peoples minds is not being witnessed.

[kellycan27]

Naturally one cannot know what 100% of people are thinking 100% of the time. When I first went full time I played a little game with myself... I would look people directly in the eyes in an almost defiant manner just to gauge their facial expressions. Facial expressions are often a dead give away.. Confused, undecided, they know, no alarms going off, they like what they see and totally...... WTH!
Again not 100% foolproof, but a good indicator.
Then you have the people who actively show an interest.. Flirting, hitting on you, giving you a little more attention, a little better service...... Being witnessed.

[arbon]

It is hard to know for sure all the time.

At church Sunday there was a man who is new that kept glancing at me, I just figured he was trying to figure out if I was really a woman or not. But after the service he approached me and said he was sorry if I noticed he kept looking at me, but I look like a twin of his 2nd wife, and that is why he was looking at me.

I took it as a compliment

[Kathryn Martin]

i find the idea that people that get ffs tend to think of the "ruse" of passing to be breathtakingly self serving and hypocritical..

Kaitelyn, I don't think that how you paraphrased what I said is in fact what I said. My point was that all of these external factors including ffs, ba, voice, dressing and even comportment etc. are seen by many transitioners as aids to be seen by the world in which you live as what you claim you are. I do not deny the value of those things at all for those who transition. In fact they are invaluable. There are other factors, however in being witnessed that play in my view an even greater part. And those tend to be forgotten over the scramble for a visual and audible presentation in transition. That is why I gave the example of my friend.

I am sure that ffs and ba is transcendant in the sense that they will affect the woman's self image and esteem. This is true however for all women not just transitioners. I find it difficult to understand how what I wrote about is self serving? I ask these questions not to gain an advantage on anything but rather to bring discussion to some of the more complex issue and problems transitioners face.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

This is what you said...

In facial surgery for instance people attempt to diminish a prominent nose, remove a brow ridge, shave a jaw, point a chin, add cheek implants to lend roundness to the face etc. Time and time again we hear that FFS is “the best investment” . The reason why many believe this is the most important thing is that without it they feel that the world will not believe that they are who they are. The result is, as previously mentioned on another thread that they tend to think of passing as a perfection of a ruse. This is never said out loud but unspoken behind the praise of FFS and other means is the view that without such “tricks” the world will not witness them.


i could say..

In genital reassignment surgery people attempt to fashion a vagina out of the remnants of their penis... time and again we hear that SRS is the best investment(or even its neccessary for congruence)..the reason why many beleive this is the most important thing is that without it they feel the world will not beleive that they are who they are... the result is they tend to think that having a vagina as perfection of a ruse.. this is never said out loud but unspoken behind the praise of SRS..is the view that without it the world will not witness them...

+++++++

a key word to me in the op...

......attempt...i didnt attempt anything...i did diminish my nose...my bones are shaped like female bones....i cant convince people i was born male...

Maybe you'd feel it if a person says you attempted to construct a vagina...

...you have no idea why me or anyone else got ffs...just like people that skip on srs have no idea why we did it... and you have no business making up reasons for it or subtly diminishing it as part of what others do to live congruent with their gender...

[Nicole Erin]

Passing is when people think you are a chick.
I don;t always know what people think of me. I don't get a lot of bad reactions. Or like at work, I am never asked to lift heavy crap, people will be like, "Us there a man who can help me with this?" Which is funny cause I am physically stronger than a lot of men.
You can do your best and really just let people think what they will.Things get easier when you quit obsessing about passing and start living. I know a lot of people know my TS status but they don't treat me any different cause I don't go around acting nervous.

[mary something]

To be fair to Kathryn when I read her post I didn't take it as her condemning ffs. She makes her priorities clear but I didn't read any judgement or value statements in her post stating that one was necessary or not for anyone besides herself, she was relating her personal experience. It seems to me it was necessary for her to give some details about her physical transition in order to raise the issue that she was trying to in this post.

Her use of the word witness seemed to me to be more about her personal interactions with people, not as much about what someone passing her on the sidewalk or asking her if she wants fries with her order might think. She explicitly stated that women talk to her about child rearing, cooking, trading recipes, etc. That is where I found her meaning about being "witnessed". Kathryn, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth but it seems to me that you were saying that other women talk to you and treat you as one of their own, while men treat you as "other". From looking at her pics I would say that she is lucky to have a facial structure that doesn't have a lot of strong male cues, not every midlife transitioner is so lucky. I know that I will def. pursue ffs and have already began researching surgeons so that after a year or two of hrt they can deal with the brow ridge area on my face and possibly more depending on what hrt doesn't help. I expect that it will give me the ability to wear a larger variety of (shorter) hairstyles, not have to put on as much makeup to contour my face, and worry less about angles and the effects of years of testosterone induced bone growth. I don't expect it to make any difference on whether my friends or aquantences interact with me as a woman or as an "odd" male. That was the point that I took from her post, not a condemnation or value statement on whether someone should pursue it or not. We can all agree that there is no "one size fits all" solution to achieving our transition goals can't we?

I'm not gonna argue that having anonymous blue collar males in work shirts with their name printed on their chest treating you as a hot piece of @$$ isn't being witnessed, because it surely is. Maybe she was referring to personal exchanges with a little more, umm, emotional complexity in the exchange? The kind of conversations where you're talking to the little brain on top not the one behind the zipper. Does it feel good to be treated this way? It sure does to me, and I don't get nearly as much of this treatment as other folks do I assure you. I was leaving a store last week and pulling onto main street in the little town I live in and a geek squad van came to a complete stop, backing up traffic, while the driver motioned me to pull in front of him. It felt great, probably for the best that it happens less often for me though cause it would probably go to my head too much.

After thinking about this for a while I would define being witnessed as a women as being able to join a women's only group online, participate every day for at least a year, be able to find your place in the social hierarchy, interact and make friends, and be accepted as a woman by it's members. I've learned a lot from this board and love being a member here, but I'm not sure a transsexual forum necessarily provides the best outlet for learning how to be witnessed as a woman emotionally (especially by other women). In no way am I denigrating the function and purpose of this board, because the support that can be found here is amazing. It's our little place on the internet where (hopefully) no one is judging anyone else for being born with a brain and body mismatch and how they approach finding their path to wholeness based on what THEIR needs are. I'm doing this because I NEED emotional interactions with people (especially genetic women) where they mirror back to me who I am in my heart. I've started the physical transition because I ALSO NEED my body to match my soul. To me while they are separate things they are no more different than two sides of the same coin. My emotional transition was about fully accepting my transsexual nature, learning to refuse to feel any societal shame about it, and changing a habit of lying to myself and others about who and what I am (something I learned to do as a kid to be safe) so I can live an authentic life. My physical transition is about achieving congruency between body and mind, Kaitlynn described the benefits of her transition procedures as being "transcendent" and I can't think of a better way of describing the outcome I'm hoping for.

Oh, and Misty I have a hard time believing that anyone genders you as male. I've seen your pics online and you're gorgeous, your body is incredibly feminine, your face is super cute. When I read your writing I feel like I'm reading the words spoken by a woman. I don't have the experience of transitioning at a job that I worked at as a male and continuing on as a female, but I admire your ability to do that, maybe it just takes a while for people to change their perceptions? I won't pretend to know any more about your situation than that but to me you're an example of what I want to achieve.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

It actually will make a difference how friends and colleagues see you...its primal and mathematical...it makes it much easier on them...that's not why i did it...thats just what happened..it comforts them

in the end Kathryn and i have had many pointed and respectful conversations...
if i am reading too much between the lines so be it... there is real information between those lines...

there is something i would call female energy...its not something you can fake or implant surgically... it can be learned in the sense that its repressed for ages and it has to be coaxed out and practiced until its second nature (or first nature!!)..
people bear witness to that energy and its a wonderful thing...it can be the thing that makes you realize your life has actually started...

I used any means neccessary to start my life...including ffs and srs...either both of them are ruses or neither...

[mary something]

thanks for sharing that Kaitlyn, your experience about how ffs changes others primal perception is something that only someone who has experienced it can know. Makes me want it even more! Your choice of words to describe how it comforts them is perfect, the female energy is palpable. I can't wait lol

[stefan37]

I can relate to that energy Kaitlyn is referring to. My decision to stop fighting my inner self and start to allow myself to be me has infused me with so much positive energy. My family, friends and clients, and colleagues have all noticed a change and most have inquired what is responsible for it. If they are close enough or I think they should know I will tell them. My neighbor and I were having a conversation this morning and we got on the subject somehow and he remarked he sensed a noticable change in the way I interact with others. he said I was more outgoing and seemed happier. I confirmed for him I was actively transitioning and he was glad to hear I was doing something that made me feel comfortable. As I go about my daily life, at this point I am almost always pegged as male, Only occasionally female. As a late transitioner T as taken its toll on my body, face and hairline. Thankfully I have been developing a different voice and it is getting better daily. I will need ffs, probably hair transplants and other visible improvements to allow others ot at least initially cue me as other than male.

I have the confidence to go about my daily life without concern what others think about me. I had asked my therapist how would i know this was real and not just some pink fog fantasy. He replied"if she exists and I allow it she will emerge." he was spot on.
My wife has noticed a subtle difference in the way I am and she no longer considers me as male, and that makes her uncomfortable. My friends have remarked I have changed and most have remarked for the better. it is a long process and if I am not dead I will let all know when I leave the majority of my male vestiges behind and assimilate as a female.

[Kathryn Martin]

Neither one are ruses, Kaitelyn, and if the impression arose that I took that view then I ask for forgiveness and it to be put down to bad drafting. What I do think is that often FFS and other procedures (but not so much srs) is thought of as an instrument to ensure the world believes who you are. I do believe and I stand by that, that no amount of FFS or BA makes you more of a woman. What you project to those that interact with you is what determines how you are seen. What I wanted to affirm and put to members attention, food for thought etc. was that do not forget that it is who you are as a person and how you project that to your social environment on the deepest level of human interaction that will in the end allow integration.

[stefan37]

FFS, BA or even SRS will not make someone more of a woman if they do not shed their male trappings. Same with voice. You can have all the surgeries in the world,but if you do not incorporate female resonance, inflection and gestures and continue to sound like a male, good luck integrating. I am agreement that the attitude and demeanor we project to those around us will determining in the end how we are accepted. I am transitioning in place and part of my success to date is I make no secret what I am going through. I have a more positive attitude and it shows. People pick up on that and are able to if not accept, tolerate my changing nature.

I am not full time and probably will not be for several months. Warmer weather is coming and I wear T shirts for work. Although it is possible to hide my developing breasts , I make no such effort. My breasts are showing and I have no problem going about daily life as is. If someone inquires I will disclose my transition if they are in my life frequently such as clients mainly. My close friends and family all know I am transitioning. But if my interaction with them will be limited I just say i am on medication and my breasts have grown. I have tremendous self confidence, but to be realistic I will need surgeries to help me integrate more seamlessly than if I had not surgeries at all. If my finances prevent such surgeries I will have to make a greater effort to integrate, but I highly doubt it would go as seamlessly. I have a male hairline and tho I can somewhat camouflage it i will need some scalp advancement possibly combined with transplants. I do not wish to wear a wig. Not to mention my primary focus at this time is electrolysis and it is costing me a small fortune, not to mention the time commitment needed.

[Rogina B]

What you project to those that interact with you is what determines how you are seen. What I wanted to affirm and put to members attention, food for thought etc. was that do not forget that it is who you are as a person and how you project that to your social environment on the deepest level of human interaction that will in the end allow integration.
And so,Kathryn,can't we use the word "personna" to describe the projection to others as I said earlier? The personna is the "aura" surrounding a person and I think personna is discriptive as to what it takes to be seen as a woman,with no question.

[Badtranny]

Oh, and Misty I have a hard time believing that anyone genders you as male.

Yeah me too! LOL

Pics mean nothing. I don't get read near as much as I did six months ago but I still get read on occasion and that's way too much for me. My goal is 100%, no excuses, no exceptions.

I'm very lucky in many ways, (small hands etc) but it's my job to repay that luck with hard work and earn at least as much as I've been given. One of my very best girlfriends told me that she would have never believed I could have come this far. She said this verbatim, "I didn't have the heart to tell you that you would never be able to look like a woman, so I just supported you. Now I'm glad I didn't say anything because you are almost there". Another one of my close friends, (ex roomie) flat out told me I would and did look ridiculous dressed like a woman. She was right, but she eventually (after a couple of years) began to see my commitment/improvement.

I agree that it has to start from inside, but it takes a lot of work to get it out and I will use every tool available to me, from diets to doctors.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Neither one are ruses, Kaitelyn, and if the impression arose that I took that view then I ask for forgiveness and it to be put down to bad drafting. What I do think is that often FFS and other procedures (but not so much srs) is thought of as an instrument to ensure the world believes who you are. I do believe and I stand by that, that no amount of FFS or BA makes you more of a woman. What you project to those that interact with you is what determines how you are seen. What I wanted to affirm and put to members attention, food for thought etc. was that do not forget that it is who you are as a person and how you project that to your social environment on the deepest level of human interaction that will in the end allow integration.

and no amount of SRS makes MORE of a woman either... they are all medical procedures...

thats why i used too strong words (self serving)......INTERGRATION = CONGRUENCE to me.... you didn't have these procedures...i did... its no different than someone telling you why you got srs...

++++

Rogina, i don't like persona because it implied that its an act...i'm not a semantics person, but it implies it strongly...the definition includes an actors role... it highlights the difference between what you are doing and what I am doing...

what Kathryn is talking about is the opposite of an act...its why i strongly reacted to the way "ruse" was first used in the OP, and in the end i think we worked that out...

to me a persona would better describe the femme side of a crossdresser...

++++++

Melissa, my sister said a very similar thing....then she met a cruel fate... after my ffs i look so much like her that people have said things OMG you are like big and little twins...she is 5'6 i'm 6'2...
its kind of unfair because when i got ffs i gave dr meltzer a couple pics of her and my mom..and one of angelina jolie but he ignored that one...

[Kathryn Martin]

Kaitelyn, I would agree with you even on your point about srs that getting srs will not make you a woman. Yesterday someone asked me in private: "Did the surgery increase your personal acceptance of your status as a woman?". This is a really interesting question isn't it.

When you analyze the question it is one about status. So my clear and unequivocal answer is: Sex reassignment surgery did not enhance my "status" as a woman, it was in fact neutral as far as status is concerned. However, I answered that the reason why we mature after surgery, many describe this as the real transition, is in fact the reality that any impediment physically is now removed. The integration process that follows begins with an absolute requirement (in my view) that the war we have fought against ourselves must be brought to an end. You have heard me talk about the no-man's land between the bridges we burnt and the place where our world communicates with who we are. Without it you will always feel trans and not a woman. Without it you will always be the ruse in your own eyes, you make belief. And that is the real work of transition, everything else are pre-requisites. To the extent that the world will communicate with you as you traverse this no-man's-land will be a measure of your integration.

What in my view distinguishes SRS from other procedures, that for me and I believe for every transsexual it is something that we do for ourselves alone. It healed me. No amount of FFS or other procedures could have done that for me. My need was to correct my disability, my brokenness (as mentioned in a previous thread). You may disagree on this point and that is surely your prerogative, but SRS was only for me and those few I would love enough that I would share it with. You know I went to Spiegel for consultation and he told me to wait until hormones had taken full effect, at least two years. This is now almost three years ago and I don't need it.

I am going out on a limb here, have facial surgery, breast augmentation and all those things but have them in the same way and for the the same motivations women born with vaginas have them. Fixing a flaw, being more beautiful is something different than trying to make the world believe you are a woman. (you is used in a generic sense, not you Kaitelyn)

[Rogina B]

Rogina, i don't like persona because it implied that its an act...i'm not a semantics person, but it implies it strongly...the definition includes an actors role... it highlights the difference between what you are doing and what I am doing

to me a persona would better describe the femme side of a crossdresser...
Kaitlyn,I will use the term "projection" instead ..I really believe that being perceived as a genetic woman without question,comes from the person projecting femininity. Otherwise,on the basis of appearance,there could be many "frauds"..or,if the "transitioned girl" didn't have her "personna" together,she may project the same as any of us lowly out and about TG's. Any agreement now?

[Kathryn Martin]

There is no persona, no projection and no projection of femininity. There is only I.

[TeresaL]

For me, it boils down to what is truly in a person’s heart, mind, and soul. Insofar as passing, the amount of surgeries mean nothing and do not even register on the scale. When you start to wonder if you pass, if you are being clocked, then you set the stage to NOT pass. If your inner being is convinced that you are truly female and really belong to the feminine gender, then your outer being will automatically assume authority. At that place, you will indeed pass. Even if you are ugly as sin and have masculine features. It's natural, and not a trick or ruse. You fool no one, not even yourself, because you believe in yourself and are one with being a woman, not trying to be one.

Then your surgeries apply icing to the cake, add self confidence, give you something better, and are value added. Plus, it gets rid of the nasty feeling parts that are a disturbing reminder that things just aren't right.

[mary something]

I agree Teresa, I'm sure the lady in the pic at times gets negative reactions from strangers on the sidewalk etc. It is in her reaction that she asserts her place.

[Kathryn Martin]

Both Michelle and Rogina,

You think this came easy? You think truly that I went from zero experience to success in a short while. You need to have your realities checked.

Rogina,

there are no secrets there is only being truthful with yourself, working hard and develop an awareness of the world around them. Maybe if you stopped navel gazing it would enlighten you.

[kellycan27]

What a crock! Your inner being isn't going to do squat for your outer being in regards to passing if you don't look the part of that "inner" being that you are feeling. If you really believe that I have a bridge in Brooklyn that I'd like to sell you. You might as well be wearing a minute, hour and second hand on your chest.

[TeresaL]

What a crock! Your inner being isn't going to do squat for your outer being in regards to passing if you don't look the part of that "inner" being that you are feeling.

Of course I believe that, it's simply confidence, and not giving evidence, or acting wild eyed and scared. Acting like a man will get a transitioned person clocked. Very quickly in fact if the person looks like a man in a dress. If that person looks like a man in a muscle shirt and camouflage pants, even more so.

That being said, presentation is a given and not to be taken for granted. Looking the part is too. That usually means modest application of makeup, with the type clothes in sync with the style of the typical women in the particular surrounding.

Those of us who are not as young and pretty as you, must depend on other aspects of our presentation to be believable. We have to work our butts off to do it. So we may add FFS or not, to help us out with our external presentation and boost our confidence.

[kellycan27]

Of course I believe that, it's simply confidence, and not giving evidence, or acting wild eyed and scared. Acting like a man will get a transitioned person clocked.

That being said, presentation is a given and not to be taken for granted. Looking the part is too. That usually means modest application of makeup, with the type clothes in sync with the style of the typical women in the particular surrounding.


As will looking like a man in a dress no matter how much confidence one exudes. Is this thing that you so believe in born of actually living in the real world day after day or just some romantic notion in offering support for getting out there?

[kellycan27]

I have been f/t going on 11 years and I know a ton of transsexuals who don't look like a man in a dress, but who still get clocked on a regular basis. I am just saying that self confidence ( while being a good thing) or your inner being isn't going to be enough to make the person on the other side of the counter say... Girl

And.... Thank you for the lovely compliment.

[mary something]

I agree, we've all seen those unfortunate souls who will always be "men in dresses". No amount of surgery can change someone's gender, surely no one will disagree with that? We can only know the contents of our own hearts, and that is only if we're honest enough with ourselves to face the awful reality of the cards we have been dealt and find a way to turn a pair of deuces into a flush. The girls pics that I posted were able to. We can too.

(I have deleted the pics of the cheerleader out of respect for her)

[TeresaL]

How poorly I must be at communicating, and it's on a side issue that catches spin-doctoring.

I have to work at least 110% to look like a woman when I go out into the world. I'm out every chance I get, and do not spend my time holed up at home playing fetish games. I dress and present to fit in, blend in, and not draw attention. I pass as a little old lady (uglies too), and converse, spend time with seniors in the local senior's center, shop, run errands, dine out, visit my doctors, and attend transgender support groups as... a woman. That without questions, doubts, stares, giggles, changes in conversations, double takes, or stares. I do not dwell on whether I pass or not.

You've seen my pictures. Those are my best shot at looking like a woman. They indeed fall far short of yours. You seem to be telling us that the many women who look unattractive with some residual male looking faces are doomed to walk in public without being clocked. My experience is different. Not all women are beautiful with DD breasts, and hourglass figures. Yet they pass as women.

There is something more than beauty and big breasts that make a woman passable.

[kellycan27]

Re-read the first paragraph that you wrote in post 54. Surgeries don't matter, not even on the scale. If your inner being is female then your outer being will pass.... Even the ugliest and most masculine. Then you turned around and said it take you hours and 110 percent effort to look like a woman. I never used the word beautiful. I said that to pass one needed to look the part. I was saying that I know girls who do look the part and still got clocked so your passing armed only with confidence and your inner being is a crock and I am going to stand by that.
Maybe we have a different opinion on what passing is. For me it's being taken for that woman whether its an ugly or masculine woman or beautiful. I don't think that blending or not being noticed is passing. Those things are just flying under the radar. Passing as a woman when it's up close and personal is in my opinion passing.

[Nicole Erin]

Kathryn and anyone - why not quit obsessing about "passing" and concentrate on LIVING?

I don't pass that great. I present my best. I have good and bad features. Killer legs, hair, voice, and face is so-so. Yet my shoulders are like a linebacker.
Some of my friends, well, ALL of my friends know very well my gender status. Yet, they treat me like they would any other woman. Sometimes it is kind of a pain, I mean they tell me things and I am like thinking "EEWWWW". Or they think I want to see pictures of their families. yeah I act interested out of feminine obligation.

The only group that shys away are some of the younger, insecure men. the same ones who don't know diddly about how to treat women. The same ones that no decent woman wants. No loss there. Always at least a few haters in all our lives.

So I don't "pass" well and certainly not stealth. Yet I don't have any more enemies or life problems than anyone else. I use the women's bathroom at work without problems. Did I somehow elude the fate of having a crappy life that us non-passers are suppose to have? LIVING is way more important than "passing". Some of us get that but most here don't seem to.

Kathryn's masculine looking friend does well cause she lives life instead of worrying about what she cannot change.

With blending in - I don't even do THAT sometimes, my style is too wild.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I believe its true that some people focus on "passing" instead of living...but thats basically it ...

I would encourage everyone to live their best quality of life and have confidence in who you are.

Nobody is telling you Erin you are "supposed" to have a crappy life...assuming we are makes your life just a little more crappy than neccessary, its a chip on your shoulder and you should brush it off...

I would also encourage transsexuals to get FFS as a congruent surgery if you can afford it...it is a disservice to tell people otherwise..

to argue(even just implicitly) that SRS is a surgery that is only for us because no one can see it is absurd....and the only reason to talk about it that way is to compare it with surgeries that people can see..i agree, its only for us...
but to presume that people do FFS not just for themselves because its about what people see is also absurd....

not being able to pass is a challenge...ts women must use any means neccessary to have great quality of life... coming up with rationales like being witnessed are totally valid..being delusional is also a good strategy for a better quality of life

saying hey if you can't pass, focus on your inner femaleness, let it out and be witnessed for who you truly is a helpful constructive suggestion

...why make all those assumptions about how other people have lived their own transsexual life(sorry but this is just sooooo presumptious) to prove the point
It only serves to hide good things you are trying to say.. as evidenced by this thread..

[Jorja]

I have stayed out of this conversation for many reasons. Mostly because those involved are only a few years into their transition and need to figure it out for themselves.

I had FFS almost thirty years ago. Not because I wanted to "pass" but because the person I saw in my mirror wasn't the person I wanted to see when I looked into the mirror. I had GRS a few years later not to "pass" but because I needed to bring my body in congruence with my mind. All the surgeries, the HRT, the clothing isn't something that is done just to "pass". It is done because the person is not happy with their own personal image and feel they need to change that image.

Do or don't, it is a personal choice and should be done for no one but yourself.

[stefan37]

There are no answers for all of us. We are all different and have different challenges to find ourselves and improve our quality of life. I will do whatever is in my power to help integrate me as the person I need to be. If others are unhappy or think they have what will work for me. So be it. I live my life daily as I need to.

[Rianna Humble]

I'm not asking everyone to agree with the original poster, but I am warning you all that no more personal attacks or other attempts to derail this thread will be tolerated :angry:

The next person that tries it gets a holiday from posting.

If you can't debate in a civilised manner, don't debate at all. :Angry3:

Rianna Humble
Moderator, Transsexual Forum & Safe Haven

[Kathryn Martin]

I had FFS almost thirty years ago. Not because I wanted to "pass" but because the person I saw in my mirror wasn't the person I wanted to see when I looked into the mirror. I had GRS a few years later not to "pass" but because I needed to bring my body in congruence with my mind. All the surgeries, the HRT, the clothing isn't something that is done just to "pass". It is done because the person is not happy with their own personal image and feel they need to change that image.

Do or don't, it is a personal choice and should be done for no one but yourself.

I am so glad you said that, Jorja. It was really the point of one of my comments on this thread.

[kellycan27]

Ok I'll admit it.... I had ulterior motives for wanting to pass. Besides congruency I also wanted to present as a pretty and desirable young woman. I wanted men to pay attention to me and want to be with me. I wanted women to be envious! I wanted the perks that pretty girls receive... I am a horrible horrible and shallow person! :heehee:

[mary something]

Haha, say hail mary three times and go on your way Kelly, sin no more ;)


Thanks for sharing jorja, your experience is appreciated and it seems there is a lot of wisdom in your words


I want ffs,, make no mistake, I know what its like to be clocked, I know what its like to be laughed at. I think those experiences were vital to me as I learned what my needs were and more specifically how strong are those needs. I do better nowadays but I know that there are no guarantees with ffs. The pics on the surgeons websites are best case. Complications happen even when you do your homework. There is always the risk of a bad ooutcome unfortunately.

The single largest factor in my own recognition of what my path should be is that no matter how bad an outing I would have, and believe me I shed tears, I knew I would go out into the world again so I did everything on my ability to make my outside match my inside.

It was simply the fact that my need to have the world see me as a woman was stronger than my need to avoid embarraasment or ridicule. I learned how to react to people in much the same way a gg who is quite masculine would when confronted by ignorance. Those experiences were so, so important to my self understanding. That is why I think it is a poor choice to think ffs is necessary, not because it wouldn't achieve a higher level of congruence but because its a one-way trip, and it still might not keep you from getting clocked occasionally. Some gg's get those looks to, it is in the response that they assert who and what they are to the world.

[Kathryn Martin]

Kelly, helloooo, nothing shallow or horrible about wanting to be attractive and desirable. I just want to be an attractive older woman, I want older men to pay attention to me and want to be with me, I want other women to be envious. I want the perks women my age receive when they are attractive...... I want to live in the present. Hmmmm, I guess I do:o

[Jorja]

There is nothing shallow or horrible about being attractive and desirable. It just happens to be a side effect of FFS. ;)

[Kathryn Martin]

Touchee, that made me laugh

[Nicole Erin]

Well for your friend, she doesn't worry cause she knows she is a woman.
When you know something, you can own it. Some may try to take it away but they just cannot.

[kellycan27]

No FFS here, but I would like to get my nose done. One of those cute little button noses :heehee:

[Jorja]

When you got it flaunt it, Kelly. ;)