Male or Female?

[Frédérique]

You’re a woman/At least you say you are...
You’re a woman/At least you look like you are...
(from “Stepping Stone” by Jimi Hendrix)

I got one of those prospective juror information forms in the mail, from the District Court in Topeka, KS no less, and I was obliged to tell a little about myself, or at least check the boxes that are somewhat correct, or somehow relate to my existence. I don’t want to be a juror, but my name was chosen at random, and I have to do my “citizen” thing, you know...

Anyway, near the bottom of the form was a place to indicate what sex I am. There was a little oval box for “male,” and another little oval box for “female.” I had to fill in one of those boxes. I’m rarely asked to indicate my gender, but here was a chance to do so. After being on this site for several years, I immediately wondered why there was no box for “transgender.” The absence of anything but a male-female choice was intriguing, to say the least...

What if a transgender individual got a form like this, and there was no place to indicate that you are TG? Since you’re posting in this section, which implies an MtF direction, would you fill in the little box next to “female?” That seems logical, but what if the authorities, on the other end (the ones who will process this information) have no patience for anything but M or F? Keep in mind that we’re in KANSAS, not the most liberal place on Earth, and gender issues are very much cut and dried, or subjugated amidst a conformist atmosphere...

Of course, I know that transgender people exist, and I know they would give pause to a simple thing like “declaring” one’s gender in a public arena. The very fact that it’s either MALE or FEMALE on a juror form indicates, to me at least, that there is zero tolerance for alternatives. It may be different in other, more progressive states, but here in Kansas boys are boys and girls are girls, period. Without really saying anything, or indicating there are other ways of being, a tacit reinforcement along M-F lines is being perpetuated. Is this fair? Is this antiquated?

It all seems very odd, yet revealing, to me, a person who skirts the edge of gender variance on a daily basis. I mean, on this form there were several different boxes for marital status, and many different boxes for race, but only two for gender – male or female. I know, you can’t compare apples and oranges, and there are two recognized and understood genders (as seen on TV), but what about those people who are neither one nor the other, but somewhere in-between? Is this the time to stand up and be counted, or is this the time to educate the un-listening majority about one’s interesting existence? Male or Female? Reality is infinitely more subtle...

Would you, the MtF crossdresser, fill in the box for “Male,” or the one for “Female?” :thinking:

What did I do? I grabbed my #2 pencil and filled in “Male.” I nearly broke the lead. Next question... :straightface:

[kimdl93]

it wasn't too long ago that there wouldn't have been boxes for other races, ethnicities or marital status. I suspect it will take a while before the Vogons who make forms catch up with us.

[Chickhe]

Well...for something like jury duty which involves jail time if you contempt the court, you are best off to fill in what matches your legal ID. You could leave it blank I suppose. What you feel like is something else.

[Angela Campbell]

I would put whatever is also on my drivers licence. Eventually I will get that changed I hope.

[Annette Todd]

The subject of data retrieval was discussed on a thread some time ago because I had made the mistake of saying writing sex instead of gender. The comments I received indicated that gender is used as a standard now and not sex. Which kind of confirms what I said then that sex is still used. Maybe that is mostly bureaucratic organizations because it takes them so long to change and come into line with the world. The prevailing wisdom of that past thread was that sex is indicative of sexual preference rather than what type of plumbing you were born with. That would be gender...

That is a long way to the point here but, I would still mark an M rather than F because the implied purpose is to collect data about those completing the form. (There is a word for that data that escapes me right now when I need it.) So I hope I have not been completely contrary here. I am just contributing my tenth of a penny (inflation sucks):-$

Annette

[Sabrina133]

Sad but true....as an officer of the court, i would strongly advise you to indicate same gender as on your drivers license. And when and if ordered to appear - appear dressed in the gender indicated on the drivers license unless you are transitioning. Judges have a very low level of humor about these things. believe me! Then again, judges have a very low sense of humor period.

[Beverley Sims]

My male name is a little androgynous, it could be misinterpreted.
I left the "sex box" vacant and somebody put an "F" in it.
I always wondered if it was because I failed.
It was a job application for casual employment.
I got the job and wondered if they thought I was presenting as a male because I was a X dresser.
They obviously had an accepting policy.

[Annaliese2010]

Oh gaaawd. being transy is just...whatEVer. social realities are what they are. just...Do what u do n dont make sucha capitol case out it...thats what i tell myself anyways. its all soooo much....fluff. Doesnt amount to much nor warrant so much thought energy or debate. simply are what u are. is what it is.

IMHO & w/respect

[Lorileah]

OTOH you could get out of jury duty rather easily...I doubt any lawyer would not dismiss you without cause. :) I always wanted to be on a jury and see what a real trial was like...but I get dismissed routinely.

Somewhere along the line when one is transitioning you can change the gender marker. Up until then, legally you are M or F, depending on what is on your birth certificate.

[Sabrina133]

OTOH you could get out of jury duty rather easily...I doubt any lawyer would not dismiss you without cause. :) I always wanted to be on a jury and see what a real trial was like...but I get dismissed routinely.

Somewhere along the line when one is transitioning you can change the gender marker. Up until then, legally you are M or F, depending on what is on your birth certificate.

Believe me most trials are excruciatingly boring. Perry Mason moments simply don't happen. No lawyer - prosecutor or defense - wants that kind of drama as it means he's lost control of the witness and the jury. I know this is completely off track but one of my favorite lawyer movie was Anatomy of a Murder...

[Kate Simmons]

Oh we can stand up and make a declaration of being transgender but for the most part if we do so, we do so alone and will have to deal with any prospective outcome. It's one thing to be brave, quite another to deal with any resulting consequences. Who is really ever ready for something like this unless, of course, we are "legally" transitioned on the books.:)

[NicoleScott]

Anyway, near the bottom of the form was a place to indicate what sex I am. There was a little oval box for “male,” and another little oval box for “female.” I had to fill in one of those boxes. I’m rarely asked to indicate my gender, but here was a chance to do so. After being on this site for several years, I immediately wondered why there was no box for “transgender.”

If they asked for your sex, why would expect to see a transgender box? They didn't ask your gender.
Besides, Frederique, I thought you said in a prior post that you are a CD, not TG.

[Frédérique]

If they asked for your sex, why would expect to see a transgender box? They didn't ask your gender. Besides, Frederique, I thought you said in a prior post that you are a CD, not TG.

Last I looked, the words “gender” and “sex” are interchangeable, unless you wish to split hairs… :straightface:

And…thanks for noticing! I am CD, not TG, but those terms are also interchangeable on THIS particular site… :clap:

[AmyGaleRT]

Sad but true....as an officer of the court, i would strongly advise you to indicate same gender as on your drivers license. And when and if ordered to appear - appear dressed in the gender indicated on the drivers license unless you are transitioning.

I would concur. There are times and places where dressing en femme is completely not appropriate for the non-transitioning CD. That's one of them.

- Amy

[Jackie7]

I usually leave the M or F boxes empty, same as the "race" boxes. I've never been called on it but if I was I'd just go "oops I didn't see it." Unless it was a real bad hair day and then I'd be likely to explain that in nearly every situation it's equally irrelevant and offensive to ask what color was my Dad's skin as what's inside my panties.

When the question is "sex?" the best answer is, "yes please."

[heatherdress]

Basic question seems simple - mtf crossdresser is a male who crossdresses as a female, but specifically, the person is still a male. I don't see a simple jury identification form to be a statement about transgender acceptance. I guess that if the taxpayers of Kansas want to differentiate ranges of gender expression and appearance and feelings and attire - more expensive surveys can be developed. Maybe the opposite approach is better - no box for gender. Maybe just a name and address.

[Stephanie47]

Fill in the little bubble with "Male." Wait. If called appear as a male. Then hope the defendant and/or witnesses are not transgendered. Then, it will be time for truth or consequences under questioning of the defense attorney and the prosecuting attorney.

[Juliea661]

Frederique, wouldn't it be nice if there were no gender/sex block, and no gender/sex disparency in pay, and no gender/sex considerations with regard to safety, and no gender/sex differences in opportunity, and, well you get the drift.
But till then, I'd put what my drivers license say, and present that way...
Hugs, Jules

[mikiSJ]

Even though it may seem trivial, you are signing a legal document and attesting to its truthfulness. I wonder what the judge's reaction would be during voir dire if you showed up as Freddie yet marked the box male.

[noeleena]

Hi,

I can cross out both box's & put intersex female. in truth i cant put male or female, though if it comes down to it ill tick both.

Oh, for all said & done its female on my orginal birth cert's they just could not get thier head around the intersexed part. bugger, it would have saved me a lot of hassles, oh well cant have it all.....

...noeleena...

[gender_blender]

Sex and gender are two completely different characteristics. Sex is based entirely on physical characteristics and gender is outward social presentation. My sex is male.

[xdressed]

[COLOR="black"]Last I looked, the words “gender” and “sex” are interchangeable, unless you wish to split hairs…

I don't think they are, hence transgender being different from transsexual and bi-gender being different from intersex

[NicoleScott]

Last I looked, the words “gender” and “sex” are interchangeable, unless you wish to split hairs… :straightface:

And…thanks for noticing! I am CD, not TG, but those terms are also interchangeable on THIS particular site… :clap:

I agree and at the same time I disagree. It all depends on who's doing the defining.
Isn't it too bad we don't speak a common language here?

[Jaymees22]

I always feel like there should be another choice when filling out forms, too. I remember when I was young filling out an ID card, my mother got a laugh because under sex I put "medium". When she asked me what I meant, I said "I don't think I'm too sexy". Knowing what I know now I probably just wasn't sure what I was. Jaymee

[Michelle55]

How about the idea that the boxes for gender, race, and such should not be there at all. In theory all those characteristics should be irrelevant, but unfortunately we all know better.

BTW, I've never been served on a jury, but my ex-wife did many years ago. It was a murder trial too. With the evidence presented the jury could only arrive at Manslaughter and the defendent received 2 years. We found details afterward from an EMT friend that was at the scene. The truth was it was premeditated murder but since the defendent had been an informant for a long time most of the serious evidence was simply not presented. My cynical nature then took an even sharper turn and since I've had pretty much no faith in our legal system.

[DebbieL]

You’re a woman/At least you say you are...
You’re a woman/At least you look like you are...
(from “Stepping Stone” by Jimi Hendrix)


I got one of those prospective juror information forms in the mail, from the District Court in Topeka, KS no less, and I was obliged to tell a little about myself, or at least check the boxes that are somewhat correct, or somehow relate to my existence. I don’t want to be a juror, but my name was chosen at random, and I have to do my “citizen” thing, you know...

I'm not sure about the laws of Kansas, but I know that in most states, the box to be checked is your "legal status". Many states only require that you have been living Real Life Experience for 6 months and be presenting as your preferred gender full time. At this point, you can get the appropriate legal documents, including change of name, change of sexual designation. This is true even before hormones have fully taken their effect or SRS. Other states are less tolerant, in some cases refusing to recognize even post SRS gender changes.


Anyway, near the bottom of the form was a place to indicate what sex I am. There was a little oval box for “male,” and another little oval box for “female.” I had to fill in one of those boxes. I’m rarely asked to indicate my gender, but here was a chance to do so. After being on this site for several years, I immediately wondered why there was no box for “transgender.” The absence of anything but a male-female choice was intriguing, to say the least...

There have been times when I have had to give my birth gender as my gender, but have ALSO had to explain elsewhere on the form that I had other aliases, including my female aliases. For Jury Duty, you should use the gender indicated on your driver's license. I suspect that if you have been presenting as female and do so when called to appear at court for Jury Duty, you will probably be dismissed. Prosecutors tend to prefer more "conservative" jurors, and defense would value your insight, but might be concerned that you would polarize the jury rather than help them find his client not guilty. Being transgendered, you have the ability to see many different sides of any situation or any problem, and question assumptions.


What if a transgender individual got a form like this, and there was no place to indicate that you are TG? Since you’re posting in this section, which implies an MtF direction, would you fill in the little box next to “female?” That seems logical, but what if the authorities, on the other end (the ones who will process this information) have no patience for anything but M or F? Keep in mind that we’re in KANSAS, not the most liberal place on Earth, and gender issues are very much cut and dried, or subjugated amidst a conformist atmosphere...

There are legal steps to changing one's gender. Normally, you need to live full time for a period before starting hormones, and some time after that before legally changing your name. There are ways to legally change your gender as well, first changing your social security records, then passports, and driver's license. The legal process takes several months. Your legal designation is accepted even prior to SRS.

There is one exception. If you have not had SRS and you are convicted of a crime, you will serve in a prison for the gender defined by your genitalia, rather than your legal or presentation status.


Of course, I know that transgender people exist, and I know they would give pause to a simple thing like “declaring” one’s gender in a public arena. The very fact that it’s either MALE or FEMALE on a juror form indicates, to me at least, that there is zero tolerance for alternatives. It may be different in other, more progressive states, but here in Kansas boys are boys and girls are girls, period. Without really saying anything, or indicating there are other ways of being, a tacit reinforcement along M-F lines is being perpetuated. Is this fair? Is this antiquated?

For transsexuals, the process of transition is something they plan, often for years. Their ultimate goal is to take all steps, hormones, procedures, and legal proceedings to permanently change to their preferred gender. For MtFs, this includes laser hair removal, electrolysis, and hormones to create breasts, along with breast augmentation surgery. For FtMs, this would include packing of breasts and eventual breast removal, hormones to produce hair on face, arms, and legs, and often gaining weight to create a more masculine looking figure.


It all seems very odd, yet revealing, to me, a person who skirts the edge of gender variance on a daily basis. I mean, on this form there were several different boxes for marital status, and many different boxes for race, but only two for gender – male or female. I know, you can’t compare apples and oranges, and there are two recognized and understood genders (as seen on TV), but what about those people who are neither one nor the other, but somewhere in-between? Is this the time to stand up and be counted, or is this the time to educate the un-listening majority about one’s interesting existence? Male or Female? Reality is infinitely more subtle...


Would you, the MtF crossdresser, fill in the box for “Male,” or the one for “Female?” :thinking:

Depending on my legal status, I would check the appropriate box. I'd suggest you read "Alice in Genderland" (Amazon Books), talks in depth about the process of transition.


What did I do? I grabbed my #2 pencil and filled in “Male.” I nearly broke the lead. Next question... :straightface:

Sometimes, on less "Official" documents, I'll put a question mark in the Square marked male. Honoring the legal requirement yet creating the space for a conversation.

[Krististeph]

Yes, same here, Frederique. Our state does jury pooling by voter registration. I've been called numerous times, usually just go and wait it out with a big Tom Clancy novel or some such- never got called to serve for years. I was selected as an alt once, could not claim any kind of prejudice they asked about, though i had others you might be able to guess. Didn't get called for that one either.

Then I got called right off the bat- even though i had been called as a witness in a lawsuit that was still going on, even though i said I had prejudices surrounding drug laws and the drug trade (it was a cocaine buy case). The guy had one prior for pot. We failed to find him guilty. I think both attys were leaning that way though, but the darn case still took half a day.

Gender wise- i dressed like i normally do when i go out to work, which is to say, rather drab. However, on various forms, here and there, even official ones, i've been known to 'forget' or 'miss' that particular question. hey, if it does not or should not affect the outcome- no biggie.

And after seeing the attitudes of the judge & courts, the last theng they want to do is make more work- as long as you don't _appear_ to be making a statement or anything to challenge them. Hey, people make mistakes.

[MsJanessa]

"male or female"?? Are those my only choices?

[JenniferR771]

You have not heard about AIS? Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome...its where a woman finds out she is actually a man genetically speaking. Her(his) body is not affected and not masculinized by the male hormone. The person cannot bear children. In a sense, none of us know our real sex--unless we have had a chromosome test to determine if we are XX or XY...or XXY...or XO.
When a baby is born--the nurse takes a look and checks a box. Done--usually.