Any wonder why

[Nigella]

The Free Dictionary (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/)

1. transexual - a person who has undergone a sex change operation

2. transexual - a person whose sexual identification is entirely with the opposite sex



Merriam Webster (http://www.merriam-webster.com/)

Definition of TRANSSEXUAL

: a person who strongly identifies with the opposite sex and may seek to live as a member of this sex especially by undergoing surgery and hormone therapy to obtain the necessary physical appearance (as by changing the external sex organs)


The Oxford Dictionaries (http://oxforddictionaries.com/)

Definition of transsexual

a person who emotionally and psychologically feels that they belong to the opposite sex: a pre-operative male-to-female transsexual

a person who has undergone treatment in order to acquire the physical characteristics of the opposite sex.


With just these three examples, is it any wonder that the TG community cannot agree

[Amy A]

It's a tricky one, and I don't think anyone is going to be able to come up with a definitive answer any time soon.

I guess the argument centres around whether or not someone who isn't transitioning and has no plans to do so should be considered to be transexual or transgender. For me, just because it seems logical (and not in any way in order to 'rank' people or tell others how they should self identify), I would say all those that are transitioning or transitioned (or with definite plans to do so) are transexuals, whereas people who identify strongly with the opposite sex but can live on in their gender of birth would be transgender, but there are lots of grey areas that that definition doesn't account for, such as economical or social barriers to transition etc.

The problem is, as soon as anyone with authority stands up and gives the terms clear definitions, there'll be an uproar from anyone who disagrees. It's such a contested issue that perhaps it's best left up to the individual to decide.

EDIT: I realise this might be a sensitive issue and the last thing I want to do is cause offence! :)

[Marleena]

Interesting for sure! In my case I got a diagnosis and was already on HRT before even posting in this section. People can still invalidate me if they want.

If somebody says they are TS I'll take it at face value. I'm sure not going to argue with somebody that believes they are TS, I'm not a gender therapist and have my own crap to deal with. I don't get why anybody would want to be TS if they're not anyways.

[Rianna Humble]

I think the Oxford and the Webster definitions correctly describe a part of what it is to be transsexual. I note that the Webster's definition leaves open the possibility that a non-transitioner may indeed be transsexual.

[mary something]

language is a blunt instrument that is used to communicate intricate and multi-dimensional ideas. I agree, no wonder! :)

[mikiSJ]

...and of course, there is the issue of transgender...

[Inna]

Perspective of relevance!

To someone outside of the experience, summation of characteristic will always be only that, which can be perceived within capability of sensory input. Limitations of such, which exclude entire internal being, describe falseness, and only visualize external facade.
In the instance of a fully passable woman who sometimes in the past was exposed to the transsexual predicament, labeling her a transsexual will only be in response to her past within the pre and transitional period.

Someone with obvious gender character, that of the natal physical state, yet undergoing transition, will be viewed as transsexual.

Someone cured of the transsexuality state and therefore assuming brain gender and exhibiting congruency, will be viewed as a Woman, until past is revealed.

Then again, if a woman was born with XY AIS syndrome, is she not a woman? Another 150 years and these questions will not be even on a table, unless of course Homo Ridiculous are no longer here!

[josee]

When does one become a transsexual? I feel like it is something I was born with. That is a really common belief in the community is it not?

Does the act of taking hormones suddenly make me transsexual? What about when I come out as transsexual and begin presenting female, does that make me a transsexual? Oh I know, the day I go full time, work and everything, then I will be a transsexual? I don't feel like I ever was a real man. Oh sure, I pretended to be a man for a long time because I thought it was the only way to have a happy life. Oddly enough I never was very happy for very long while I was pretending. It was when I stopped pretending that I began to find some joy in life. But If I was not a man and I am not a transsexual until I begin transitioning or some other point along the way, what was I? Haven't I always been transsexual? If I have always been transsexual is it possible that I always will be? Or is there a point where I will possibly be cured? How will I know when I am cured?


Wondering in Virginia

[StephanieC]

Personally, I still have trouble with the trans title. I'm just me. I don't know the precise moment I became this way nor the reasoning. I'm more comfortable with the concept of a "journey", where the endpoint is somewhat defined, with definite mileposts. When I get there, my journey may be over. Although "trans" may be a convenient definition of a portion of that journey, it is not a definition of me.:2c:

-stephani

[Badtranny]

When does one become a transsexual? I feel like it is something I was born with. That is a really common belief in the community is it not?

Well there is no question that you are BORN transsexual. What we're talking about in the context of this forum though is community and support. The TS section is what helped me understand who I was and what I needed to do. I can guarantee you that I (and others like me) may have just kept on looking if my curiosity about the TS section was met with a bunch of posts about wives calling their husband "titty boy", or people talking about "enjoying their male self" while taking hormones to make themselves more feminine. Or people who have to make deals with their wives, or under-dressing to make themselves feel better, or transition is not in the cards but they hate their bodies sooooooooo much.

These are not transsexual issues. I didn't come here to find out what it was like to NOT transition. I wanted to see people talk ABOUT transition and how it works. Why is it so hard to understand that the TS section exists for the sole purpose of community for TS people who need information from people that are LIVING the life. When I was thinking about doing something as crazy as transition, I didn't want to hear from anybody who hadn't done anything yet. I wanted the real nitty gritty from people on the front lines. People that have faced the world as who they are. How can you be a closeted transsexual? At some point you're gonna have to come out and face the music right?

I have this feeling that some of the people who come on insisting they be accorded the TS badge probably rarely use that word in real life. They haven't come out and told anyone else. They want to come here for fellowship without walking the coals. I have TS sisters who are losing jobs and relationships, and these non-transitioning people want to come on here and say THEIR jobs and relationships are too important to sacrifice? Please. I have TS sisters who have broken up their families so they could live an honest life, and somebody who doesn't want to transition because they love their families "too much" wants to stand shoulder to shoulder with those women? That's pretty much the definition of hubris.

How is it that someone can look at us and all we've been through and say "yeah, that's me too" when they haven't been through anything?

[Julie Gaum]

Very recently a thread was started on this Forum, and probably still going strong, where the OP told his wife that he was transexual even
though he stated that he had no intention of physically transitioning BUT he has been taking hormones! I won't even try to make sense of this as dozens of our sisters have tried without much success, but these definitions are important for helping to define one's self. More believable than dictionaries due to the research involved would be WPATH (World Professional Association for Tansgender Health). They clarify the confusion voiced above by stating that a TS is one who "seek to change or have changed ....". The bottom line is that if a person has no intention at this point in time to physically change their physical sexual characteristics then at this point in time they are not considered as TS. If later on in life they do make that decision then the label also changes.
I can understand the confusion during that period of months or years when they are seeking, but due to circumstances of family, finances and so on, and have not yet made the irreversible move. To be technical, for no reason I can guess, once one has the primary characteristics through surgery then they are considered, by definition, female, i.e., woman.
As an aside: Whoever said that one can be cured from either their feelings and practice of cross dressing full or part time and that transexuals can be cured before those final steps has been indulging in some potent stuff.
Julie

[Kathryn Martin]

With just these three examples, is it any wonder that the TG community cannot agree

I think that the transsexual community can agree that the Oxford dictionary come somewhat close but the rest sounds like just like urban guesswork. But even Oxford kind of gets it wrong.

I seem to be banging my head against the same wall over and over again. Definitions are the result of repeatable observations. That is why I keep going back to Benjamin because he recorded the medical history (anamnesis) of a number of persons. Based on these records he developed a phenomenology. The problem is that all the dictionary definitions fail to take such phenomena into account. The result is a popular science kind of description. It is imprecise.

How about this:

a) transsexualism is a condition persons afflicted are born with;

b) it expresses itself by the brain sex being opposite to the sex of the body;

c) the person has a high intensity need to fix their body to bring it into congruence with their brain;

d) the person must complete medical protocols to achieve congruence;

e) the person must transition socially and professionally to achieve a congruent and authentic life.

None of this is addressed in any of the above definitions. In addition the definitions define a fully transitioned person as transsexual when in fact transsexualism as a condition ends with full transition including surgery.

If you ask yourself if you can answer yes to b-e and answer yes, then, in my book, you are born transsexual.

PS Oh, and this link (http://www.gires.org.uk/Web_Page_Assets/Etiology_definition_signed.htm) might actually be helpful

[Sara Jessica]

How is it that someone can look at us and all we've been through and say "yeah, that's me too" when they haven't been through anything?

Your trans-hierarchy hard at work.

I guess participation in this section is predicated upon taking what is apparently the ONLY legitimate path when one is transsexual. Never mind that there are other choices out there, there is only one right way to deal with this thing of ours.

Josee, I am right there with you. I was born the way I am but I guess my choices render my opinions irrelevant. Heaven forbid there be someone else out there like me who has built a family they are reluctant to toss aside in favor of transition. My counsel that there can be another choice is apparently a fallacy.

The measure of the GID I suffer to this day and have known my entire life is irrelevant except for the fact that despite some very dark times, suicide has never been in the cards. My bell hasn't rung either so because of these things, because I can find a measure of fulfillment in the guy side of my life, I am not trans. I am a fence sitter, not willing to do whatever it takes to be "authentic".

Whatever.

I hate that word. I had a friend who used to say it. It made so much sense coming from her as she transitioned. I just loved hearing her say it, seeing her write it. Now it just strikes a nerve because she is authentically dead and if she had taken the path that I am on, I am beyond convinced that she would be alive today.

Transition may be terrific for some of us. Perhaps for many of us. Not necessarily for all of us. Does that make the rest of us less valid? Does that make our contributions here less worthy? I don't think so.

We were born this way. The choices we make in how to deal with being transsexual make us human.

If I'm wrong about this, if this section is intended solely for those who ARE IN THE PROCESS OF ACTIVE TRANSITION OR HAVE ALREADY DONE SO, then say it.

[mary something]

Name one biological condition that presents with the same symptoms, duration, and intensity in all patients across the board. I can't. I'm not a Dr., I didn't even drink a Dr. Pepper today ;). Sara Jessica made an excellent point, the choices we make in how to deal with being transsexual make us human. Not everyone experiences it the same way at the same age or at the same intensity. Maybe some people are half-transsexuals, some are a quarter, some are one/eigths? What does it really matter if there are common problems that some members here have been through themselves and can empathize? Heck not everyone experiences the common cold or the flu the same way. I'm sick for maybe a day or two and then back on my feet and fine usually, my SO can have the same thing and be sick twice as long, I don't call her a fraud and a faker on day three or four and she doesn't on day one or two for me, we just try to help each other be well.

If I'm trying to give advice to someone with gender issues who has children and a family that they express concern for them and seem to feel distress over separation you darn better believe that I won't be the person telling them to split. I firmly believe that when their bell goes off they won't need anyone encouraging them to transition, they'll need advice from people like Melissa, Kathryn, Kaitlyn, and lots of others who have completed or are still walking that part of the journey. I have no idea if they are trans or not, but I know that when someone represses part of themselves that needs to come out it's a lot better if that person manages it well than if they become a human geyser of pink fog. I know from speaking of experience that divorces work better for the kids involved if the parents can communicate effectively and their is some understanding of the partners transsexuality, transgenderality, whatever you want to call it.

All of our needs are important and won't be shared by all members. It's not our place to judge if they are as ts as someone else or not. How many people posting in this thread didn't try darn hard to live as a man and fit in for a while? I find it really hard to believe that someone could live their entire life and just *poof* one day say I think I'll transition my social and gender role for the rest of my life without it being something that has been a long, hard struggle before. A struggle that deserves the recognition of being named.

If you want to consider transsexuality as a verb, then perhaps we should adopt the boy scouts model and issue badges to the cadets. Actually that's not a bad idea, we could have a designated place in our avatar that lists the surgical and medical interventions along with the social accomplishments that person has completed so far, divorces and separations would be nice there too. Then when a lurker or new member is here it's easy to see the experience that each poster has about each topic they discuss.

Shouldn't our goal be to get to a place of happiness and contentment with our gender expression? Integrating ourselves on an emotional level to achieve acceptance of self? There are members on here who insist you have to have a vagina to fully emotionally and mentally embrace womanhood, there are other members who say they know they are women without surgical intervention. Maybe they are both right about themselves? I don't think someone who is a high-intensity transsexual will stop until they've ran the whole gamut that their resources will provide for, but not all people fit that bill. Nor should they be pushed down that path by threat of social exclusion or peer pressure, we have enough Charles Kane's and Walt Heyer's in this world... and those men would like nothing more than to end medical treatment of this condition for EVERYONE.

[I Am Paula]

I used to hang with a bunch of trans people weekly at a downtown bar. We were everything from casual CD's, to post ops. I stopped going because the panty crowd just wanted to talk about hair removal, and the transexuals argued endlessly about who was the bigger transexual. What could have evolved into a loose knit support system became endless verbal masturbation about who is, and who is not transexual.
While on one end, we could probably omit the bearded panty fetishist, and on the other, automatically include the post ops, everyone else explored a middle ground that was equally relevant. Some no doubt went on to HRT, and maybe SRS, others went home to thier families, were tormented by GD, and kept a stiff upper lip for the sake of hearth and home. In my opinion, both are transexual.
At the end of the day, call yourself what you will, if these pages ease any pain, answer any questions, or help guide you in whatever quest you are on, you should be welcome here.
By MY OWN definition, I became transexual just a few short weeks ago, when I began HRT. I don't consider that a promotion, and I didn't get a raise or a corner office. The path this is leading to may even be a downgrade in status and lifestyle. It's just a new category, and I've already been in a few.

[ReineD]

Not to complicate things, but below is a 139 page definition! :D

It's Benjamin's book, "The Transsexual Phenomenon", from which comes the six-level gender chart that we all talk about. Although it was written 50-60 years ago, if anyone takes the time to read it they will find it still most accurate.

http://tgmeds.org.uk/downs/phenomenon.pdf

[Nicole Brown]

Let's take this a step further. How can we expect any dictionary or person to be able to express an accurate definition for the term transsexual when the authority, WPATH, provides somewhat different definitions in each of its last two Standards of Care (SOC) documents.

In Version 6 of the SOC we find the following description for the term transsexual:

The term transexxual emerged into professional and public usage in the 1950s as a means of designating a person who aspired to or actually lived in the anatomically contrary gender role, whether or not hormones had been administered or surgery had been performed. During the 1960s and 1970s, clinicians used the term true transsexual. The true transsexual was thought to be a person with a characteristic path of atypical gender identity development that predicted an improved life from a treatment sequence that culminated in genital surgery. True transsexuals were thought to have: 1) cross-gender identifications that were consistently expressed behaviorally in childhood, adolescence, and 4 adulthood; 2) minimal or no sexual arousal to cross-dressing; and 3) no heterosexual interest,
relative to their anatomic sex. True transsexuals could be of either sex. True transsexual males
were distinguished from males who arrived at the desire to change sex and gender via a
reasonably masculine behavioral developmental pathway. Belief in the true transsexual concept
for males dissipated when it was realized that such patients were rarely encountered, and
thatsome of the original true transsexuals had falsified their histories to make their stories match
the earliest theories about the disorder. The concept of true transsexual females never created
diagnostic uncertainties, largely because patient histories were relatively consistent and gender
variant behaviors such as female cross-dressing remained unseen by clinicians. The term "gender
dysphoria syndrome" was later adopted to designate the presence of a gender problem in either
sex until psychiatry developed an official nomenclature.
The diagnosis of Transsexualism was introduced in the DSM-III in 1980 for gender dysphoric
individuals who demonstrated at least two years of continuous interest in transforming the sex of
their bodies and their social gender status. Others with gender dysphoria could be diagnosed as
Gender Identity Disorder of Adolescence or Adulthood, Nontranssexual Type; or Gender
Identity Disorder Not Otherwise Specified (GIDNOS). These diagnostic terms were usually
ignored by the media, which used the term transsexual for any person who wanted to change
his/her sex and gender.

While in Version 7 of the same document we find the following description for the term transsexual:

Adjective (often applied by the medical profession) to describe individuals who seek to change or who have changed their primary and/or secondary sex characteristics through feminizing or masculinizing medical interventions (hormones and/or surgery), typically accompanied by a permanent change in
gender role.

So, with WPATH providing us with these 2 definitions how can we realistically expect any dictionary to get it right when the professional organization which defines our standards of care differs so greatly from one version to another???

[ReineD]

I don't see a conflict, Nicole. Version 6 gave more of a history, is all. They both say that a TS seeks to change or has changed their primary and/or secondary sexual characteristics.

This, from Version 6:


The true transsexual was thought to be a person with a characteristic path of atypical gender identity development that predicted an improved life from a treatment sequence that culminated in genital surgery.

The diagnosis of Transsexualism was introduced in the DSM-III in 1980 for gender dysphoric
individuals who demonstrated at least two years of continuous interest in transforming the sex of
their bodies and their social gender status.

[kellycan27]

I am not reading anything.. Just in case I screwed up along the way.. I am comfortable as is LOL

[Nicole Brown]

And I totally agree with you Reine, they both do say basically the same thing. I wasn't trying to indicate or imply that there was a conflict, simply pointing out the difference in wording between the two. To the casual observer or individual who skims the material, different meanings could possibly be interpreted.

[ReineD]

Ah! I see. :hugs:

[Nicole Erin]

I am not reading anything.. Just in case I screwed up along the way.. I am comfortable as is LOL
Don't you want to read people's articulate articulations of the deeper philosophical standpoints in which if we look at the DNA and history of where TS'ism comes from and how Socrates derived that if within the 35'th day of conception in the birth canal blahblahblah?

What I wonder is why people obsess over this whole TS crap anyways?

EDIT - Kelly, yes you did do it wrong. You need to go back and start from scratch with your transition and do it different.

[Badtranny]

Your trans-hierarchy hard at work.

Okay, I guess I'm guilty. I think transitioners are better qualified to advise other transitioners. It's a character flaw.



Transition may be terrific for some of us. Perhaps for many of us. Not necessarily for all of us. Does that make the rest of us less valid? Does that make our contributions here less worthy? I don't think so.
The choices we make in how to deal with being transsexual make us human.

...and maybe we've come to the most insidious component of this little debate. Maybe this is what's really bothering me though I haven't really thought about it until now. Your argument Sara, basically boils down to: There are other options for people who think they are transsexual.

I can tell you for sure that the TS people that I know have a real problem with that concept. A couple of cogent arguments to that end, three years ago may have delayed my transition for another year. At the root of it is the dangerous idea that a gender dysphoria that has plagued someone for years can very well be alleviated by cross-dressing, and that just isn't true. Personally the cross-dressing didn't help me at all, other than to help me decide to stop doing it and transition already.

When I listen to the non-transition arguments I can't help but imagine somebody like Sara being called by a frantic parent of an 18 year old TS girl who has just come out with her plans to transition right after high school. Mom and Dad don't want to see their son ruin his life so lets let him talk to 'uncle Steve' because Steve was able to live just fine without going full time. Uncle Steve, please explain to little Bobby that he doesn't need to do this and he can dress up on the weekends or whatever and still be very successful. So what do you say to her Sara? Do you tell your young trans niece to follow her heart or do you tell her to explore "other choices"? I can only imagine having the guts to come out at 18 and then being talked back into the closet by a well meaning uncle who said he was "just like me".

The non-transitioners don't really understand what drives us to do it and that's perfectly understandable, but doesn't that indicate a profound lack of perspective in the TS condition?

You know, this little discussion has nothing to do with how I feel about anything, I'm not making judgments on anybody're decisions or how they live their lives. I am nobody special by any measure and my advocacy for the transitioners has nothing to do with anything I've ever done. This is simply about what I think the tone of the TS forum should be for the people that come after me. My transition is well underway and I'm already full-time and I live my life exactly how I want to live it. So why do I care? I care about the new girls, the ones who come here because they're having a hard time identifying as gay, or they just discovered they love BEING cross-dressed but hate DOING it. I care because the TS forum was a life saver for me and I want to at least try and keep it focused on what's real about being TS, and what's real is coming out and living a real life with no secrets and no shame.

This is personal for me, but I don't take any of it personally and I hope nobody thinks I'm attacking THEM just because I'm attacking their belief that transition doesn't matter. Transition does matter.

[ReineD]

Does the act of taking hormones suddenly make me transsexual?

This might not be a popular thing to say, but ...

Hormones do change the way that a person thinks and feels. Not just natal males, but natal females during menopause too. That's why we take them. If a MtF begins taking hormones for all the wrong reasons (hoping to become a woman or hoping to feel more like a woman), they will experience changes that in the short term might make them feel wonderful, but in the long term might cause them to make decisions that they will later regret, if they're not following the WPATH guidelines and they aren't being seen by board certified (if there is such a thing), gender therapists who aren't so quick to swing the gates open.

Of course this is a broad statement to make since the variables are too numerous to list, but the fact remains that hormones affect not just cosmetic things like breasts and skin quality, but mindset and emotions as well.

[Nicole Erin]

I have this feeling that some of the people who come on insisting they be accorded the TS badge probably rarely use that word in real life. They haven't come out and told anyone else. They want to come here for fellowship without walking the coals. I have TS sisters who are losing jobs and relationships, and these non-transitioning people want to come on here and say THEIR jobs and relationships are too important to sacrifice? Please. I have TS sisters who have broken up their families so they could live an honest life, and somebody who doesn't want to transition because they love their families "too much" wants to stand shoulder to shoulder with those women? That's pretty much the definition of hubris.

I don't care for the word TS in RL or the forum. I don't tell people in real life cause I just don't talk about my gender status. If they figure out that I am biologically a dude, ehh whatever.
I dont want to walk the coals, that would ruin my pantyhose.
I do sometimes worry about losing my job. Not because I am TS but I cannot keep my mouth shut with my snark comments or tasteless jokes (imagine that). Not losing family or friends, well my step family but that doesn't count. My job though is pretty much a joke so if they told me I could not tranny at work I would be like "sit on it".

I cannot really stand shoulder to shoulder with many TS women cause I have a bad smoking habit and some people act like it is gonna kill them. They make me go outside. (mumbles under breath "bitches")

[noeleena]

Hi,

The talk about what am I ,

it should be wraped up in being intersexed, this would save a lot of heartacke . because in fact this is where it all starts though most will never accept that we all are intersexed no matter the person & that includes every one born on this earth,

if one is not intersexed then why do males have both sets of T & E , then women they too have both sets of T & E. plus a lot more of cause,
you see its right there before your eyes . or is the pink fog so thick one can not see through .

Now i know that will go down like a rock in the sea, why, its at conception it all starts not a hour or day or weeks after the body & mind programe has allready been set in motsion as to what we will be, belive the myth all you like it does not change real fact,

What can & does happen is malfuntions happen, im prove of that, because of disess , chemicals if you like things in the water, air & so on. more so over the last 100 years, & you can check that out from our history, take synthic drugs,

Now go back at least 500 years , look at worms buterflys fish & what do you see they some are intersexed, take it or leave it, theres some detail to look at,

So heres the ? since im intersexed when did it start, apart from 65 y 9 m 's ago as it is add on 9 more months, at concepstion, not after,

Okay how far you are intersexed ether way, will depend on a lot of detail going on from conception wether you have more T for the male or more E for the female or myself a real mixup. okay im not going into all the detail that would take some 20 A4 pages & im a lousy writer, i dont have a brain to do that,

...noeleena...

[mary something]

Very recently a thread was started on this Forum, and probably still going strong, where the OP told his wife that he was transexual even
though he stated that he had no intention of physically transitioning BUT he has been taking hormones! I won't even try to make sense of this as dozens of our sisters have tried without much success, but these definitions are important for helping to define one's self. More believable than dictionaries due to the research involved would be WPATH (World Professional Association for Tansgender Health). They clarify the confusion voiced above by stating that a TS is one who "seek to change or have changed ....". The bottom line is that if a person has no intention at this point in time to physically change their physical sexual characteristics then at this point in time they are not considered as TS. If later on in life they do make that decision then the label also changes.


Dear Julie,
I've been trying to make sense of this paragraph since you wrote it yesterday, so far I can't. This isn't an attack but simply my attempt to delineate what I see as a contradiction and appeal to you to clarify so that I can understand what you are communicating. My specific issue is that it seems to be ignoring the facts of the situation and to some degree your supporting evidence seems to invalidate your point. You call Lynn a "he", which is certainly your right to express I suppose, but I wonder if you have asked Lynn how she prefers to be addressed or if it is to make a larger point? If you are calling Lynn a "he" to assert that they are not TS that is fine, but you use a WPATH definition to support your assertion that clearly states "seek to change or have changed...sexual characteristics". Lynn clearly states in the thread that she has been taking hormones for over two years. How can you say that she doesn't meet the definition of seeking to change her sexual characteristics when in fact she has done this very thing? Matter of fact she has one pic on her profile that definitely shows some secondary sexual characteristics of a female nature.

It just seems unfair to me to impose a value judgement on Lynn by calling her a "he", then state a WPATH definition as proof of such (that actually negates your point because by that definition Lynn is a ts because she has not only seeked but she has changed some sexual characteristics, that is what hrt does to a body), and then state that if later on in life they make a decision that apparently they have already made then you will label them differently.

Do you see how confusing that can seem to someone reading it? It really sounds like Lynn can't win for losing in this situation.

I think learning the ideology and classification of gender variance is important when finding one's self and proper place in this world. I also think that becoming an idealogue can be dangerous to one's self because it is easy to fall into the unseen trap of trying to impose artificial order on a world that defies neat descriptions and is full of people who are contradictory by nature.

I have no idea if Lynn is TS or not, she has publicly described her situation as between a rock and a hard place. She needs support and empathy, not judgement and labels right now. She has 3 young children to raise, she wouldn't be the first woman to sacrifice for her children for a while if that is the case.

[Sara Jessica]

By the way Melissa, you know I think you are terrific and I don't think that has changed. However, there has been a new undercurrent in this section that seems to repeatedly suggest that basically this whole thing is about it being time to fish or cut bait.


Okay, I guess I'm guilty. I think transitioners are better qualified to advise other transitioners. It's a character flaw.

No, you are one of the best to advise other transitioners.

Myself on the other hand, I'm not the best to give any sort of transition advice to someone who has transitioned, or is in the process of transition by way of living full time. I would never be so bold to think otherwise. Other advice, life situations, relationships, presentation as a female, anecdotes about the women I know who have in fact transitioned...those are fair game.

Yet think of the people who find themselves in this section. Maybe they're exploring, or validating their feelings and/or identity. Maybe they have known their entire life they are "TS" in a classic sense but are only just coming to terms with it. We know people come to such realization (or perhaps better stated, understanding) at a myriad of ages, from youth to teens to early adulthood to middle age to later in life and so on. By the same token, people will take steps to act on such understanding depending on an infinite number of variables which make up their own lives.


...and maybe we've come to the most insidious component of this little debate. Maybe this is what's really bothering me though I haven't really thought about it until now. Your argument Sara, basically boils down to: There are other options for people who think they are transsexual.

There aren't?

The word think as you use above carries a very heavy weight.

Does this mean that if one doesn't transition, they only think they're transsexual?


I can tell you for sure that the TS people that I know have a real problem with that concept. A couple of cogent arguments to that end, three years ago may have delayed my transition for another year. At the root of it is the dangerous idea that a gender dysphoria that has plagued someone for years can very well be alleviated by cross-dressing, and that just isn't true. Personally the cross-dressing didn't help me at all, other than to help me decide to stop doing it and transition already.

Just like in any aspect of life, there are those who wax philosophic to the point where it's their way or the highway, those who see themselves at the top of the trans-hierarchy are no different on a myriad of subjects and are usually quite vocal with their opinions. By the paragraph above, again are we to understand that the only way to alleviate GD is to transition?

And the use of the term cross-dressing is just another subtle dig. Just because presenting as a female didn't help you, that has nothing to do with how others cope with their own personal gender issues. Myself, presenting as a female is an important aspect of my being able to find fulfillment in my life. It has facilitated the social aspect which is the most important coping mechanism available to me.


When I listen to the non-transition arguments I can't help but imagine somebody like Sara being called by a frantic parent of an 18 year old TS girl who has just come out with her plans to transition right after high school. Mom and Dad don't want to see their son ruin his life so lets let him talk to 'uncle Steve' because Steve was able to live just fine without going full time. Uncle Steve, please explain to little Bobby that he doesn't need to do this and he can dress up on the weekends or whatever and still be very successful. So what do you say to her Sara? Do you tell your young trans niece to follow her heart or do you tell her to explore "other choices"? I can only imagine having the guts to come out at 18 and then being talked back into the closet by a well meaning uncle who said he was "just like me".

That's just not going happen. My advice to the 18 year old, aside from seeing a therapist which better be in play already, unequivocally would be do embrace this while you're young. To learn, understand, and make a decision sooner than later towards transition if that is where the person is leaning. This is the advice I would have wanted if I had been brave enough to share this aspect of myself with anyone who mattered when I was that young.

The difference is when the individual ponders dropping a nuke on a wife, perhaps children, career, etc. This is where my situation becomes relevant and in my opinion demonstrates a viable option for the person to consider. My advice to such a person demonstrates that I walk the talk, so to speak. I would share my own path as an option that is out there, yet I would provide support as decisions are made but would not be a cheerleader by any stretch of the imagination. There is no "you go girl" on my part while life-changing decisions are being made but once a path is embarked upon, I will be there with full support and admittedly, even a bit of envy, if transition is the path that is taken.

I may fail someday in the choices I am trying to sustain. It could be next week, next month, next year, in several years, or whenever. I would expect a pile of "I told you so's" to be sent my way and I would deserve it. Yet I may very well be able to sustain this forever, just as I'm sure many others with similar gender issues have done before me.


The non-transitioners don't really understand what drives us to do it and that's perfectly understandable, but doesn't that indicate a profound lack of perspective in the TS condition?

Problem is, I have a profound perspective as to what drives us because I live the dream every day. Every waking moment to a varying degree I get to put up with being who I am.

Like I said before, just because I haven't been on the wrong end of a suicidal note or because this whole just hasn't hit me hard enough yet has zero bearing on whether I can comprehend the TS condition. Trust me, I know it well.


You know, this little discussion has nothing to do with how I feel about anything, I'm not making judgments on anybody're decisions or how they live their lives. I am nobody special by any measure and my advocacy for the transitioners has nothing to do with anything I've ever done. This is simply about what I think the tone of the TS forum should be for the people that come after me. My transition is well underway and I'm already full-time and I live my life exactly how I want to live it. So why do I care? I care about the new girls, the ones who come here because they're having a hard time identifying as gay, or they just discovered they love BEING cross-dressed but hate DOING it. I care because the TS forum was a life saver for me and I want to at least try and keep it focused on what's real about being TS, and what's real is coming out and living a real life with no secrets and no shame.

What's real about being a TS is different for all of us. How can there be a one-size-fits-all solution? You mention some of the variables which led you down your path but there seems to be no acknowledgement that other situations might lead one down a different path.

At the root of this whole thing is that you and I are both TS, as are many of the others in this section (a percentage of whom have transitioned, some are in the process and others have not or will not transitioned). The difference in the path you have taken is that you can also lay an assertion that you are a woman to the rest of society. There may be a female at the core of my very being but the choices I am making in how I live my life preclude me from checking the "F" box in the eyes of the world. That hurts me but I accept it. You on the other hand get to own that and no one here would take that away from you.


This is personal for me, but I don't take any of it personally and I hope nobody thinks I'm attacking THEM just because I'm attacking their belief that transition doesn't matter. Transition does matter.

Transition does matter, you're right. I don't think anyone is saying that.

[Emily83]

After my wife came out to me, she asked if I thought I could be happy with another woman. For the first time in my life my sexuality was questioned & for 1/8th of a second I thought I had to decide on something.
I had never thought about it. I had never worried about it either. I've had sexual relationships with several woman in the past. I never really thought it was a big deal. Apparently not too many people are free to think like that.
My realisation at 29 is that I love people, not their gender. On 2 seperate occasions I have been mistaken for a boy. I like to think it was nice that I was noticed in the first place :-)
I'm not a fan of lables. If you can't lable it & put it in a group, it's different & scary. I like that. Big Love XXX

[Nigella]

There have been some wonderful responses to this and the one thing that does shine through, there is support here, in abundance, for those who are transitioning.

[Badtranny]

There aren't?

No there aren't. There is nothing else I could have done to make me feel better. I was 42 years old. As a kid I thought I was gay because I wanted to be a girl. I decided in adolescence that I was going to be a straight boy and I spent the rest of my life (till 42) trying to make that happen. If there was a way to avoid transition I would have found it. I tried being openly gay, I tried cross-dressing, I tried gender queer. Transition was at once, the best and most terrifying decision that I ever made. It really did free me from the baggage that I've carried with me for as long as I can remember.

If you are transsexual then you can't be happy hiding in a male form factor. If you are happy or even content as a male, then your issue is something else. If you are not happy but can't transition because of fear, then I have compassion for you, but what do we have in common as transsexuals? Fear? Wardrobe? Career choices?



The word think as you use above carries a very heavy weight.

I didn't intend that. In my head, the conversation starts with "I think I might be transsexual". That's how mine started with my therapist anyway.



Does this mean that if one doesn't transition, they only think they're transsexual?

Possibly. Unfortunately there is no way to really know. I can't look into your heart and know anything other than what you tell me. Keep in mind that my perspective is that of a transitioner. I can't put myself behind your eyes and see what you're dealing with. I just know that I can't imagine NOT transitioning. I know that I see people paying pretty steep prices for their own transitions, and I see other people who simply decide they don't want to pay the price. Sounds reasonable to me, but I don't think following your heart should be something that people measure against risk.

Sara, I appreciate you as well and I'm sorry that we find ourselves on opposite ends of this one, but if you are making compromises to protect your family, then you have made a decision to not move forward with transition. Perhaps you would love nothing more than to join the ranks of the bitter Betties but your decision to remain where you are indicates that you have other priorities. Some would find that admirable, but doesn't that imply that someone who did transition doesn't love their families as much? Can it also be said that your particular needs just don't rise to the level of transition?

For those that desperately want to transition yet can't, I'm truly sorry for you. If you plan to continue living your life as a man, what do you gain by telling people you are transsexual? And if you're not going to tell anyone, than how can you stake out a place in the TS community when you are closeted, and living as a man?

[emma5410]

I do not know at what point you become 'transsexual'. We all go through a stage, maybe lasting decades, when we can fight it or deny it. Somehow we manage to live as men. Then the day comes when nothing you can do will keep you living as a man. You have to transition to survive. Is that when you become transsexual? Or are you transsexual because you think you are, or because you have started HRT? Are you born transsexual? I think we are.

It is a degenerative condition. It gets worse over time and there is only one cure. Transition. I respect those who struggle on for the sake of their families but they do not know what it feels like for those who reach the point when transition is the only choice. They really do not. They may suffer from GD but not to the level that transitioners do. If they did they would be transitioning. They could not carry on as men not even for the sake of their families.

I think that this is one of the points Melissa so often makes. Unless you have reached the very edge you are not qualified to offer advice to those who have. Despite your very real suffering and distress you really have no idea what you are talking about.

[Rianna Humble]

Let's remember to respect one another and not get into finger pointing and name calling.

I don't see anyone in this thread trying to give advice to those of us in transition or to those who have completed transition. I do however see people wrongly imputing that intention to other members.

Just as Sara said that she would never try to give advice to a transitioner on how to further their transition because she cannot speak from experience, neither can I speak from the experience of someone like Sara who still manages to sublimate her dysphoria to try to hold her family together. Does that make her wrong? Not at all, it just puts her at a different stage of her life to those who have needed to transition.

Those of us who have been around these forums for a while often offer the opinion that if someone suffering from Gender Dysphoria has things which for them personally take a higher priority than becoming congruent or whole then that person does not yet need to transition. I actually sometimes go further and suggest to such a person that they should not transition as long as they have the other priorities.

We would all do well to remember that just because someone is different to us, it does not make them any less valid as a person or even, I would say, as a transsexual.

[Badtranny]

I don't see anyone in this thread trying to give advice to those of us in transition or to those who have completed transition. I do however see people wrongly imputing that intention to other members.

Not in THIS thread, but it is fairly common around here. I might know who's full of poo, but casual readers do not.

None of this is about any particular member anyway. This is about the FLAVOR of the TS forum. Do we really need to see a dozen people chatting about under-dressing and not shaving their legs in the summer? Or arguments in favor of NOT transitioning? This is where it's heading, and as long as we persist in the "I'm a tranny, you're a tranny" inclusion movement, we're going to see more and more of it until there will really be no difference in the sections.

We already have someone who's wife calls him "titty boy" and somebody who isn't allowed to shave their face, both of who are closeted, both insist they are transsexuals who don't want to be inconvenienced by transition. I am all for an open forum, and the mods can only do so much so I guess what I'm saying is if the membership wants a legitimate TS forum, than the membership needs to do a better job of vetting the posters.

Perhaps it only means something to me, and if that's the case than I will sadly watch what could have been a great forum continue to devolve into discussions about boundaries and shopping trips. We've lost a lot of great girls over the last year or so and I see more losing interest, and I just don't understand why this concept is so controversial.

[stefan37]

There is much disagreement over whether one is born transsexual and does not know, or does know but cannot transition for whatever reason. Although I might have considered myself transsexual for a very, very long time. there was no way I put it out there in any form I was transexxual. I considered myslef transgender, a crossdresser, trans variant etc. After all the methods I used ot cope with my dyshoria were exhausted I was left with one option. That was to transition. After I started taking action to actively transition, I started to feel comfortable telling others I was actively transitioning. At that point my thoughts of me being transsexual became a reality. Why would somebody that lives as a male the majority of the time and takes no active role to transition consider themselves transsexual. Sorry but that baffles me. I personally do not care what anybody wants to consider themselves. I live my life daily as I see fit. I have no doubt many that choose to live as male for whatever reason have serious gender issues. they may even be transsexual, but the difference is they are not transitioning. The posts in this section have started to drift towards people declaring their transsexuality yet still wanting to live as male.

Their posts hold no value for me. I desire knowledge from those that are or have actively transitioned. The issues I face and will face cannot be answered by somebody that has not taken the steps to actively transition. If I want to read about compromising with the wife, or living part time, or fantasizing what is like to be a woman, I can go to the crossdressing section. When I was seriously thinking I had no options but to seek therapy and possibly transition, I needed answers and this subsection of the forum was invaluable to me. it provided much of the guidance I needed. For those that are exploring where they fall on the gender spectrum and need to know if transition is right for them. The experience of those that have gone before them could very well determine if they take those steps, fence sit or stay with the status quo. I am in the process of actively transitioning. I have disclosed to my entire family, close friends, all my employees and many of my close clients my intention to transition. I have paid a very steep price with the change in my relationship dynamics with my wife and daughter. Did I have a choice, maybe if I wanted to live with the constant distress that accompanies suppressing my identity. The energy to keep it hidden and suppressed took its toll. I could no longer continue to fight my inner being. Since I have made the decision to transition and taken action, I have been infused with tremendous positive energy and I am capable of achieving things I was incapable of before I made that decision.

I have compassion for those that suffer but will not take action, but I can not relate and if this subsection deteriorates into a crossdressers plus or transsexual lite subsection, I would be very sad as I believe we would lose many members that have tons of experience if that were to happen. I also believe my experience could help those contemplating changing their gender or those just starting out.

And for me it has nothing to with whether anybody is trannier than thou, but to continue to have relevant discussions about the process of transition and the issues that accompany them. Posts about telling those afflicted to just suck it up, you made vows, what about the kids, compromise with the wife and live as male full time or part does a disservice to those that come to this subsection Transsexual forum seeking answers about themselves and about transitioning.

[Amy A]

Perhaps it only means something to me, and if that's the case than I will sadly watch what could have been a great forum continue to devolve into discussions about boundaries and shopping trips. We've lost a lot of great girls over the last year or so and I see more losing interest, and I just don't understand why this concept is so controversial.

I'm very much at the beginning of my transition, and as such I'm in no place to hand out advice about it other than about the things that I've already been through or dealt with, such as coming out to friends, family, employers etc.

But because I am going through this process, from a purely selfish point of view I want to talk to others who are going through this as well. I don't see it as a hierarchy at all, it's just the reality of the situation. If I wanted to build a trainset, I'd get more useful advice out of a conversation with someone who has built a trainset than one with someone who has given serious consideration to building one. I know that's a reductive metaphor but it's essentially the truth as I see it at least.

I don't think any less of anyone here who isn't transitioning, and I know the pain of feeling trapped and unable to live life as you truly want to so I empathise. And I do think it's important that members have a space where they can ask 'Is transitioning the right route for me?' But I do think Melissa has a point, and I think it should at least be discussed.

[Nicole Erin]

Once again we have the problem of "trannier than thou".
What a lot of TS need to remember is that it doesn't matter how other TS/CD see you, it matters how the real world does.

Can't no one tell someone else if they should transition. All of our situations are unique.
I had a good and a bad point - For the good part, it was easy to live full time cause i had already lost my wife and I had no career and very few friends. To start living the part was easy as flipping a switch, soon as my name changed.

Yet on the difficult side - I am not able to afford the surgeries that the true TS might afford. That means, I don't pass all the time.

I ain't gonna lie -If I had had a good job, nice things, still married and was reading on a forum that I was a fake, I would have thought twice about all this.
A TS who puts herself in dire straights (or risks it) to transition is not a true TS, it is a stupid TS. I mean if it's "Hmm, do I want to eat and have a roof over my head or do I want to switch genders?" is the question of the day, who isn't gonna pick eating/living under a roof?

EDIT - am not sure about TS being the best to give advice to other TS. Maybe in a few instances yes but I remember when I was first trying to figure all this out, I turned to the TS/CD/DQ community and got a lot of bad and incomplete advice. I wanted to become a woman so I learned from them instead.

[Kathryn Martin]

Perhaps it only means something to me, and if that's the case than I will sadly watch what could have been a great forum continue to devolve into discussions about boundaries and shopping trips. We've lost a lot of great girls over the last year or so and I see more losing interest, and I just don't understand why this concept is so controversial.

It's not only you. I find the conversations have devolved into chit chat a lot of the time of why people do not to transition. The corollary to that is insistence that if you don't transition you nevertheless are transsexual. In a sense we go further and further into the "I feel so girly, I am transsexual" kind of discussion. The trouble is that this is exactly the kind of stuff that has cost transsexuals proper medical attention since the 70s. According to the grand transgender Poohbah "we are all the same" when in fact we are not. We end up in discussions whether the distinctions drawn by Benjamin (which really delineated what it means to be transsexual) are "relevant" in this day and age.

Transition is a tough slogg by any stretch of the imagination. It is undertaken by those who have no choice not by those whose intensity of distress is such that they can keep the lid on it. There is no part time transition, it's called crossdressing. You are not living a woman's life if you go to work as a man. If you can be coerced to not transition by your obligations, love for your wife, your children or any other reason, you are not (and in the best Blitzer fashion) I repeat NOT transsexual. Being transsexual is about being born with a conflict between your brain and your body. Being female (or male) as the case may be and having a body that does not match your brain. It is never about gender and all about overcoming this one jarring, distressing, depressing disability that will leave you no choice.

No matter how many definitions you come up with, and no matter how many times you are told "we are all the same" don't buy it. It is simply not true. This statement exists for only one reason, to convince the world that gender variant persons have a medical justification to explain behavior that they cannot otherwise explain. Transsexuals are the easy and convenient cover up. But all the statements in the world that you are transsexual will not make you transsexual. The proof is in the nature of the distress and what you do about it. Every thread here by transitioned pre and post op transsexuals is opined on by many of those who have not the foggiest idea of what they speak. You may think this is an opinion forum, but for those that are transitioning or about to transition much of the the conversations here are pretty much matters of life and death and survival. Those that have gone before them have things to offer, experiences to share which are not really open for discussion, but they are open for conversation.


Once again we have the problem of "trannier than thou".Nicole, that is BS and you know it.

[mary something]

you guys make an excellent point and I'm still processing what has been said but I have one question that would help me understand what you are communicating. Could someone on an internet forum have talked you out of transitioning when your bell rang?

And for clarity's sake please only folks who have taken hrt and completed some type of surgical procedure please answer, or if you answer please note where you are at in your journey right now. I'm mainly wanting to know what the high-intensity (sorry if this isn't the best phrase) folks think.

[Kathryn Martin]

I originally came here because I needed information about transitioning. Nothing anyone could have said would have prevented me from transitioning, nor any potential threat, doom, expectation of failure. It had to be done (. period)

[stefan37]

Umm I would say that nothing anybody on the forum could have said that would have dissuaded me from starting hrt. As a matter of fact I heard plenty of reasons by those that did take action and actively transition why I should not start transition. For me I had run out of options to mitigate my inner urges to feminize myself. the negative energy to suppress the inner me was taking its toll on me physically and mentally. I knew my marriage, family relations, friends and employment could suffer and I could lose all that had any value to me as a person. I have lost at this time the intimate physical love of my wife. We are in a platonic relationship at this time. My daughter is having a difficult time and would much rather not be around me. So far all the others I have disclosed are either ambivalent or happy that I am doing something to better my quality of life. In spite of the loss of my wife's love as we used to know and my daughter at this point, I am infused with positive energy that allows me to accomplish and achieve goals I would only dream of before.

Had this forum discussions been mainly about "you go girl" and how to mitigate your distress and live as a male. I have no doubt I would still be suffering and my health mentally and physically would be severely taxed and not in a good way. It was the brutal honest truths of those that have experienced what I am experiencing now that allowed me the courage and strength to do what I needed to do. I have no regrets and look forward to my future thanks to the candid discussions of those actively transitioning.

[Nicole Erin]

Kathryn, you are right - a true transsexual should turn their backs on their families, jobs, and everything just to live as a woman. Otherwise they are FAKE by the very standards of this forum of what a True TS is.

Sorry ladies, but it ain't up to us to decide how someone should live. I know some TS want to be the elite crowd. Sorry if not everyone goes by the same standards. BTW - since there is no comprehensive test of being a "TS", how can anyone know for sure? Oh yeah that's right - they have to figure it out for themselves.

I don't carry around the label "transsexual" but I live full time, and work as a woman.

[josee]

That's why I am here also, Kathryn. Like you said in your previous post it is a matter of survival. Who do I want for advice about surviving the jungle of transition? Someone who read a book about the jungle or someone who has been there, machete in hand and found their way through. I follow you more experienced girls cause you are survivors. Someone who has not been in that jungle has no clue what it takes to make it.

[Kathryn Martin]

You are entirely right, Nicole, that it is not up to us how someone should live. But that is really not the point is it. No one tells anyone how to live their life. Just don't do whatever you want and then claim it is something other than what it is. That is the point

[mary something]

I agree with that point Kathryn, I'm just not sure how we make a logical argument to separate the wheat from the chaff that is consistent with what we know about the TS condition and our own narratives.

A friend on this site mentioned to me that you can't ask permission from society to be a transsexual. When it comes to transitioning I really don't think someone is ready if they need permission to get started. I think it is only prudent to try and empathize with the persons problems and try to help them straighten out the mess that their life is in. I would never tell them to transition or not to transition. I think they need a full head of steam, a clear head, and the wind behind their back before climbing that hill. I think having a rather high degree of self-autonomy is essential when approaching the physical transition stage because some challenges lie ahead.

[Rianna Humble]

A quick count shows 1 of the most recent 30 threads by someone who says they are TS but to save their marriage cannot transition at present.

In contrast, 7 of those threads have been taken over by people insisting how terrible it is that non-transitioners get to post in this forum. Seems obvious to me where that impression is coming from.

[Badtranny]

Seems obvious to me where that impression is coming from.

LOL

It's me! It's me!

[Amy A]

Perhaps a solution to this problem would be to have a forum specifically about transitioning. I know there are some sections that could be argued are already there to serve that purpose but there isn't one that clearly states it is solely there for the support and education of those who are transitioning or have transitioned. If those rules are set out clearly at the beginning then no one would have any basis to complain. It couldn't be a place just for those who are transitioning just to hang out and post whatever they like, threads would have to be about some aspect of transitioning.

Then this forum would still be able to continue as it is, and those members trying to figure out whether they should transition or not would still have a place they can go to. The question as to who is or isn't transsexual can be neatly avoided and hopefully some of the tension and disagreement would then subside.

It's clear that it would be impossible to get everyone to agree on what makes a transsexual so perhaps it is best to agree to disagree. But having posted threads on here about things that I really wanted advice and support about only to watch the thread turn into a frivolous chat about some cosmetic issue, I can understand the frustration that some are feeling.

[Marleena]

I too have mentioned a subforum that could be for people questioning if they are TS and/or for those who haven't started transitioning. Most of the problems in this forum arise about people who think they may be TS or who haven't started transitioning. I truly believe that subforum would help.

As a bonus it allows those that are TS to ignore those threads that clearly bother them.

There aren't any huge problems with posts by members that are transitioning or who have transitioned.

[ReineD]

Marleena, I don't think the issue is with people who are questioning themselves and who post here. The issue is rather when the questioners say outright they are TS or they are women, when they have no intention of transitioning. Or, when they believe that just taking hormones is transition.

We just need to find descriptions for everyone that everyone agrees with. Not everyone should be defined by the same word: "transsexual". That's like calling all vegetables, "vegetable". :p

A long time ago I proposed using different words that make this distinction: "transsexual" (TS), and "transsexual questioning" (TSQ), for the people who have not made the commitment to transition and by this I mean, living full time with a legal name change.

[Marleena]

Well Reine lots of people don't know tomatoes are a fruit:) Or are they if they look like and feel like a vegetable?:D

[Sally24]

We just need to find descriptions for everyone that everyone agrees with.
I thought that the non-op, pre-op and post-op were pretty accepted and accurate descriptions.

[Sara Jessica]

I thought that the non-op, pre-op and post-op were pretty accepted and accurate descriptions.

Apparently not because those words are all followed by the word transsexual.


Since this whole thing began with definitions, let's get back to the root of the thread.

For those who have transitioned, what term was used to describe you pre-transition, whether by yourself or by medical professionals (or both)???

[Sally24]

Well there is no question that you are BORN transsexual.
That should have ended this disagreement right there. To think there is only one way to deal with transexualism is to invalidate anything outside of your own experience.


How is it that someone can look at us and all we've been through and say "yeah, that's me too" when they haven't been through anything?
So everything before your transition was nothing? Judging by the outpouring of pain and stress from pre-transitioners I would disagree. Are the surgeries and living full time a huge commitment, certainly. I am amazed at the sheer numbers of girls who have managed to survive and sometimes thrive in this less than perfect technology and society we have now.


..and maybe we've come to the most insidious component of this little debate. Maybe this is what's really bothering me though I haven't really thought about it until now. Your argument Sara, basically boils down to: There are other options for people who think they are transsexual.

I can tell you for sure that the TS people that I know have a real problem with that concept.
And you are smart enough to realize that fallacy of this statement. By your own definition, the only people you consider to be TS are transitioning or have transitioned. Of course their opinion is going to be that the only way to live is to transition! That's like taking a poll of vegetarians and saying "see, everyone agrees that you should not eat meat!". If you only include transitioners than you are not going to get any other opinions.


At the root of it is the dangerous idea that a gender dysphoria that has plagued someone for years can very well be alleviated by cross-dressing, and that just isn't true. Personally the cross-dressing didn't help me at all, other than to help me decide to stop doing it and transition already.I think the dangerous idea is that since something didn't help you, it can't possibly help any other person. How do you think TS people dealt with this condition 60 years ago. Surgery didn't really exist yet and living full time was done by very few TS girls, possible more by TS men. I've seen interviews with person's I would consider TS, in the 60's. They lived as much as they could as females but were considered gay men by those around them. The moral is that you do what is possible for YOU. It differs from person to person.


When I listen to the non-transition arguments I can't help but imagine somebody like Sara being called by a frantic parent of an 18 year old TS girl who has just come out with her plans to transition right after high school......The non-transitioners don't really understand what drives us to do it and that's perfectly understandable, but doesn't that indicate a profound lack of perspective in the TS condition?I'm sorry but this is so unfair. We both know that neither of these statements are true. Do you really think that many of even the avowed crossdressers would advise a young, possibly attractive, TG/TS girl to NOT transition? So many of us would have loved to have the choices that are available now, when we were that age. And many of us are well aware what drives the TS to transition. Do we know exactly how you feel Melissa? No. But that works both ways. To state that unless you have made the ultimate commitment you are NOT TS seems to say that you can read our minds but we can't read yours.


I find myself commenting less and less in the TS Forum specifically because of this attitude showing more and more. Maybe this part of the forum should just be called Transitioning since that is all some of you want. I'd like to think that a forum is more about discussion and less a series of instructions on how to do something "the right way".

I quoted your statements Melissa mostly because you are clear and elegant in your posts. I have always respected and liked you and this doesn't change that. I just find this single mindedness uncharacteristic.