Speed bump

[Lorileah]

Dark place.

This is my first time doubting who I am and what I am doing. Geez i hope this isn't a common occurrence. Last night things just went off track totally. The make up went well, I can say that much. The rest of the night it was like I was in a place I should not be. I was angry from from the start. Little things upset me terribly (like people I know referring to me as "he" and "Him'...I wasn't happy with my look either but I didn't think I looked THAT bad). By the end of the night I just wanted to go home, curl up and mope. I kept asking myself "is this all worth it?"

It feels wrong for me when I was so confident. It was like a someone pulled the floor out from under me. No real reason. My friends were still friendly (minus the slips of gender words).

Is this a common occurrence? If so, I need to know so I can plan ahead on those days.

[STACY B]

Must be in the Air ? My Day was Monday ,, No matter what I did it Blew up in my face ,, Not even trans related stuff just EVERYTHING ! So don't feel Bad were a couple thousand miles apart an we are really closer than we seem ..

[CharleneT]

Frustration is indeed very common in transition... as for the pronouns, the best way to deal with that is not to let them bother you. I know that is hard, but it will reduce your stress level a lot. Especially if those friends, making those mistake, knew you before - you can't expect them to be perfect. Heck not even close. It is harder than you may realize to change how you refer to a friends gender -- even if you completely accept and understand that change.

[mary something]

Oh honey that is life! So sorry your having a bad day. I have those too and I promise you'll feel better soon once something positive happens and you notice it, just don't let the crap that's bothering you right now get you too down to see it when it happens babe :)

[Kaitlyn Michele]

without knowing where you were and what you were doing,
not really sure about my answer but as you are cross over to ts land from not ts land speed bumps are the norm ..boundries will get tested for sure...

if you havent fallen down at macy's in your new wedge sandals and desperately tried to hold your wig on your head while your twisted ankle is in excruciating pain...then calmly got up and limped away...you havent lived...

I had lots of bad moments...confidence is definitely elusive and there were many times i felt ashamed and stupid ..whether its a "mistake" i made, an uninvited smirk or misgendering...it doesnt matter

looking back, my feelings AFTER those moments were more of the nature of I can't beleive this s%($ is actually happening and were not ever I am not sure i want to do this...

you've always been a good sense of humor type of person...that's a really good quality for this kind of stuff!!

[TeresaL]

Yep, me too. I was in Walmart last week, and passed a lady who looked a little too long. Because of the uneasy feeling, I made my purchases and went home. I'm trying to find myself also. Last year, I had a lot more confidence too. Now I see broad shoulders, small tush, square and wide chin, big nose, and prominent brow ridges. Although some things check out ok, like space between lips and nose, somewhat thick lips, arched eyebrows, and 5'6" height. Those are not enough if there is one spoiler. I sometimes see a man's face in the mirror no matter the make up. And no, it doesn't take me an hour, which wouldn't accomplish anything but slather on too much goop. ^^

[famousunknown]

It's called a "reality check". Don't just blow it off.

[Angela Campbell]

It has been a bad week for me too. I feel fat, I look too manly, nothing seems right and I spent too much time wondering what the heck I am doing with my life.
Could be that I stopped smoking this last weekend......I dunno.

[arbon]

I had days when I felt unsure if I was doing the right thing or not, usually those feelings were based in fear. It is a big thing to do in your life, huge.

[KellyJameson]

It is easy to become extremely self critical, experience body dysphoria, fall into patterns of eating that lead to anorexia and than there is moving through the social environment of wanting others to validate your identity so you are more vulnerable to the behavior of others.

If you have ever hung out with teen girls the behavior between us and them can be very similar and many of the psychological problems as well.

For teens it is all about perfection to gain acceptance and avoid rejection in their social circle.

Life experience, wisdom, maturity, intelligence offers little psychological protection because you are fighting to establish your existence as you know yourself to be, probably for the first time in your life.

You could say that you are going through growing pains after waking up to your identity and this is a bitch to go through, yet if you look back over your life the pain was always there but you had no name for it but were always reacting to it.

It was inside you burning away at your mind, driving you to all manner of crazy behavior but without understanding why. It has an intensity and neediness about it like a hunger.

Once you get a glimpse of the truth of your genuine gender identity it is like opening pandoras box and you will never be able to close it again and return to who you were before because you now understand the pain of having lived with a suppressed gender identity which is a bit like not being able to breath while at the same time feeling like the whole world is pressing in on you slowly crushing you to death.

You have tasted the freedom of being free of gender dysphoria by living your identity even if for only a few hours and this sense of freedom and being "alive" will always be calling you back.

The problem with this experience? It is addictive much like if you had been drowning and your lungs were burning for air and you break to the surface so gulp in all the air you can get or a plant in the desert that drinks in all the water it can after a severe drought.

This addictive need dramatically increases the persons expectations and wants and you start seeking out perfection to get more of the stuff that makes you feel like you exist.

It is easy to mistake this for narcissistic need but that would be wrong.

You are addicted to being seen as you know yourself to be but you still have doubts and you cannot tell if being seen as a woman is making you "feel like one" or if you "feel like one" so want to be seen as one.

This is the paradox of identity because our identity appears to be dependant on others to be defined and lived but this is actually a mistake in our thinking. The identity was always there, you just did not know it and now you have brought it out into the open.

The more you find this identity that was always there in your own mind the less dependant you will be on others because you will experience that "knowing of self" that will eventually leave you feeling solid like the earth instead of so much vapor like clouds that are easily disturbed by every wind.

You are still vulnerable to others because you are moving from that which was unformed to that which is. This is brutally painful and I get emotional just thinking about it.

The need for perfection in your presentation and perfection from others will lead to your destruction if you do not balance it against "love" for yourself and others as "acceptance"

You are very fortunate on one hand to have discovered who you are and to find the courage to step out into the world and be accepted but there is much that is unfortunate about the transsexual experience.

I'm not a very good cheerleader and from my point of view this whole thing sucks but it is what it is and you play the cards that you have been dealt.

The relationship you build with yourself is now crucial to your surviving this. Much about gender dysphoria is about rejection of self and it is natural to reject that which is foreign to the self but this needs to be strongly balanced with self acceptance or you will end up a statistic.

We live divided against ourselves and this is an extremely dangerous way to live so self love, self respect, self acceptance is crucial but above and beyond this the thing that will keep you alive is the humility to accept your circumstances balanced against the courage to change these circumstances in a way that honors the true self to the best of your abilities.

You must fight to be what you are but accept that which you cannot immediately or possibly ever change.

I know I was meant to be a mother but this will never happen so I accept it or I will drive myself into despair, depression, rage at the unfair universe and all that other bad stuff.

The most important thing is to discover and give birth to that "knowing" as your gender identity

Once you have this solid identity nothing and no one can ever again take it from you.

You are trying to regain that which was stolen from you but being perfect or expecting perfection from others will not take you there and may actually prevent it.

Do not fall in love with this world to much because it is this same world that stole from you what is rightfully yours.

Be that pure female spirit that I have seen on this forum in the past and let everything else go.

Stay balanced in all things.

[mary something]

thanks for the story Kaitlyn, you reminded me of the time that I walked in to Macy's and all the way across the parking lot was showing my ass because my skirt got caught up in the back, ugh... :) wasn't funny at all then

[Marleena]

Hi Lorileah. If and when you do decide to start transitioning the misgendering will continue by people you know, it is not intentional. You'll just need to correct them. It'll hurt more by people that you don't know you. If you go the TS route then it becomes much more serious as it will be probably the most difficult thing you've ever done. We all had/have reservations about transitioning. No matter what path you chose you have a better handle and start on this than some TS newbies like myself.

[mary something]

that was beautiful Kelly

[Marleena]

Yeah.. that was awesome Kelly! :)

[Cheryl Ann Owens]

Lorileah and all, I'm not transitioning but on the CD spectrum. I have those kinds of days too wondering either where I'm going or what my next step should be. You'd think by now at age 60 I could really define myself and just accept that my life is what it is. Sorry I can't give advice for anyone in transition but I get very frustrated some days and want you to know that I can empathise and realize what you feel. Just remember that it'll pass and tomorrow is a new day.

You described it accurately as only a speed bump. It only gets your attention briefly and then you move on.

Cheryl

[Nicole Erin]

Well yeah whenever someone wants to do something, there will be bad days. Just those days when one is irritable, nothing feels right etc. With going out, sometimes there is stage fright.

But yeah during transition - one has to expect days or weeks when it seems the whole world calls you "sir" (even though you are 100% en femme), the occasional smirk or rude comment, and just various other blows to the ego.

I think what causes the irritability you described was your confidence kind of flopped at the last minute. Not sure how one can prepare or circumvent that. I guess just the more you are "out" the less it occurs.

I work as a woman and once in a while I think about being Erin and will almost freeze with nerves and the voice in my head tells me I am wrong. I will think, "why the hell am I doing this?" but it never lasts more than a moment. I cannot post what I say BACK to the voice of unconfidence.

You will get through, just keep your head up, shoulders back and say "F*ck it, I am gonna do this."

EDIT - Alright, if Kathryn went thru that at the store with the ankle and trying to keep on a wig and survived, THAT is a character-builder. That woman got BALLS!

[Kaitlyn Michele]

EDIT - Alright, if Kaitlyn went thru that at the store with the ankle and trying to keep on a wig and survived, THAT is a character-builder. That woman got BALLS!

Not anymore!!!

hehe...

[stefan37]

It's called a "reality check". Don't just blow it off.

Yes it can be a reality check and the best course is to blow it off. We all have our moments and for me it is constant. At this stage in my transition I have no choice. I do my best but usually is is not enough. I just go about my daily life and let if roll off my back. Hell Lori I still use male pronouns and my male name even when I want to use female ones. It is a habit I am slowly breaking, but I have been male for a long time. The alternative is to not go about your life as you want and for me that is not acceptable.

[Lorileah]

I think what causes the irritability you described was your confidence kind of flopped at the last minute. Not sure how one can prepare or circumvent that. I guess just the more you are "out" the less it occurs.

Since I am about 70% now, I am out frequently and you are correct, it doesn't happen often. Maybe that is why it seemed worse yesterday. And yes my confidence flopped as you say, badly. Up to deciding what color hair to wear (everyone loves the redhead but I hate it...so it was there as a disadvantage from the start. I just "knew" the auburn wasn't going to work...and it didn't) I was in a "mood" from the beginning. Then the clothes all had a little something that didn't work and there was someone at the club who now makes me very uncomfortable (not because of any sexual reasons, we are just on a permanent disagreement now)...so I walked out. Then I went back after I cooled down and was fine for an hour and then it hit twice as bad.

Stacy and Ellen, I know what you mean. Maybe it is the stars?

Kelly, you described it perfectly. I have been extremely lucky so far. People tend to like "me" and I was cruising along confident and happy. I would say that last night was the "perfect storm". When you start out bad you just continue to make things bad and you see ghosts everywhere. I have part of my confidence back. Hopefully after this evening I will have it all back.

Thank you everyone for your comments and sharing here.

[Asp]

Had a similar occurance a while back, and had a major self doubt period, and I burned all my things, shaved my hair off, etc. Then I found this forum and became more self confident and began to start again. Just remember, that no matter what your issue is, you have a lot of support here on the forum.

I think of it as if I was a GG, and someone called me he, or him, sure I will be mad I initially, and correct them, but I would get over it and most likely forget it even happened, unless someone is continually referring to you as such maliciously.

You'll be fine sweetie, you're smart and beautiful, and confidence is the highest level of sex appeal.

[Angela Campbell]

If we didn't have bad days we wouldn't recognize the good ones.

[stefan37]

Lori is a big girl and probably knows more about the risks of transitioning as well as any of us. Transition is serious business with real risk of loss. But when the need to transition overrides all else the only thing we can do is our best and take the good with the bad. I made the decision to transition and have no further need to hide. I have to do the best with what I have and so does anybody that needs to transition. So since I have a male face and hairline I should just continue to live my life as a male and go through all the anxiety as before. Well I personally could give a crap what anybody thinks of me. I am living my life as authentically as I need to. I could be 450 lbs and there would be people laughing, making fun or just having disdain because of my weight. We can not control how others perceive or think of us so why get too concerned about it. I do the best I can and as I progress farther it will get better. There are even members here that have had facial surgery, body modifications and have trained their voice and even they admit they occasionally get clocked. It is part of transitioning and if you can not handle it transition is not for you.

[Badtranny]

Let me tell you what you got comin' kid.

The deeper you get into full-time, the LESS confident you will feel about your presentation. When I was cross dressing I would feel fine in short skirts and high heels and any one of my 30 dollar wigs. Everybody knew I was a dude, and I knew it, but it didn't bother me one little bit.

Nowadays I dress pretty damn conservatively and if someone looks at me twice I immediately think they read me.

The more I pass, the more insecure I am about passing. I am becoming obsessed with perfecting my presentation to 5 nines, and the closer I get to it, the more it hurts each time I get read.

This is the Tranny Paradox, and bitches be trippin'

[LeaP]

Speed bump ... Speed bump? Doesn't that imply there is a smooth section somewhere? Show me!

[Michelle.M]

The deeper you get into full-time, the LESS confident you will feel about your presentation.

This may be a case of "your mileage may vary".

When I was part-time I'd spend 2 hours on my makeup and another hour to get dressed and I'd obsess about getting clocked, and you know what? I GOT CLOCKED ALL THE TIME! Or maybe it was my anxiety about it that made it seem that way.

Nowadays I can go from the alarm clock going off to out the door, makeup on, dressed, car keys in hand and even balancing a cup of coffee and a bagel as I head to the car in under 30 minutes. I really and truly NEVER get read, or if I do I'm too carefree to give a hoot.

Sure, our confidence will wax and wane. Not because we're trans, but because we're alive and trying to negotiate the real world. It's called Life, and we all go through it.

I think it's normal to feel this way. But the ones who persist and carry on despite the doubts are my heroes, and from them I draw much inspiration for those days when I have doubts.

[stefan37]

There is your problem right there. Dressing pretty conservatively. :)

[Michelle.M]

Huh? How is dressing conservatively the problem?

[stefan37]

umm sarcastic humor maybe

[Michelle.M]

:o Oh. .

[Nicole Erin]

Confidence comes in stages. I dont think the apprehension ever vanishes completely.
But like at first when it happens, it hurts enough to ruin your day. After a while, it might ruin the moment is about all.

The important thing is to concentrate only on friends, family, and those who really matter. Think about strangers who laugh or stare - it is not like they would have been potential friends anyways so who cares what they think? You ain't gonna see them again anyways. Or if you do and they seem obsessed with you, it is cause they cannot admit to themselves that they think you are fascinating or even cute.

[Nicole Brown]

It happens, no matter what we do nor how hard we try, it happens.

My daughter, who is my biggest supporter and cheerleader slips every now and then. My cousins also slip on occasion as do some of my friends. In fact, the only person who knows me and has never slipped and referred to me by my former name or improper gender is my 99 year old uncle, bless him.

Recently I had to go to Home Depot to pick up some more cartons so I can finish packing for the move to my new condo. As I entered the store their 'greeter', an elderly gentlemen, and I use the term gentlemen loosely, greeted me by saying 'Hello Sir, what can I help you with?' Now, I don't believe I in any way looked like a Sir and was ready to say something. But before I could say anything the cashier at the returns counter came running over, walked right up the the greeter, pushed her face up to his and said 'What can you help her with, you can apologize to the lady for calling her sir, that's what you can do. What the hell is wrong with you?'

He did apologize and offered some lame excuse, but the damage was done, it ruined my day. You know, some days I can almost understand something like this occurring, but not on this day. I was wearing a yellow sundress with frills at the bodice, matching flats, full makeup and my new wig. I was meeting a friend for lunch and wanted to look just right, I really thought that I did......

[kimdl93]

I had one little let down last week...when a cashier referred to me as sir when a ma'am would have been much better received. Oh well, she got a lousy tip and the rest o lunch went fine!

[Jennifer Marie P.]

You will have bad days dont worry chin up and get back in the saddle.

[Inna]

YES! and this is how you are forced by nature it self to be absolutely sure of your path. If transition would be easy, such as few wildely known scenarios, where a dude has a feeling of wanting to be a beautiful woman, has a lot of financiaL backing, does all the expensive surgeries and after a while screams, I Want to DETRANSITION, it was all a lie!

Nature has this wonderful filter built in, it is called pain. Through which, all the way through transition, we are faced with redicule, loss, outcast, repeated over and over until we our selves grow within, allow her to become the active part of life. Only then from perspective of experience of growth we can see the wisdom in all that pain.

Pain doesnt stop those who must, however, those who perhaps are not entirely within the grasp of TS Dysphoria will waver and dismiss the groosome drive to become a woman, because they are not!

If you find your self in pain, yet not able to stop the pursuit, rest assured, you are on the right path :)

[Lorileah]

Confidence comes in stages. I dont think the apprehension ever vanishes completely.
But like at first when it happens, it hurts enough to ruin your day. After a while, it might ruin the moment is about all.

Very true. I am very confident usually. This was just a bad day that started with ME not liking what I saw in the mirror. When I lost my confidence, the rest was a house of cards.




It happens, no matter what we do nor how hard we try, it happens.
I know it will, I have to grow thicker skin



...their 'greeter', an elderly gentlemen... greeted me by saying 'Hello Sir, what can I help you with?' Now, I don't believe I in any way looked like a Sir and was ready to say something. What the hell is wrong with you?'
...I was wearing a yellow sundress with frills at the bodice, matching flats, full makeup and my new wig. I was meeting a friend for lunch and wanted to look just right, I really thought that I did......:eek::doh: What was he thinking? Really?


He did apologize and offered some lame excuse, but the damage was done, it ruined my day. And it does, one thing that most people would see as being small can be huge to us. I would like to attribute it to ignorance but in this day that is a weak excuse. I know that in my case the other night it was because the people had known me as male for a long time and they didn't even think about it


You will have bad days dont worry chin up and get back in the saddle.

I am, last night rejuvenated me. I am happy again.

[Cheryl Ann Owens]

Lorileah, you said, "I am, last night rejuvenated me. I am happy again."

Glad for you! What a difference a day makes! Actual speed bumps upset us quickly, and then the road becomes smooth again. The upset is temporary. Then we can look back and say it's just part of our history.

Cheryl

[sandra-leigh]

Little things upset me terribly (like people I know referring to me as "he" and "Him'

Yesterday I had to fill out a government form. It had to be in my legal name (sigh). But for no good reason, unlike every other form in the same series, it needed me to tick off one of "Mr.", "Mrs.", "Miss", "Miss". I looked at that and my blood pressure started rising, and I clenched my fists for about 5 seconds and said "Arrrrgh!". Because government records have me as "Mr." and it was important that they do not reject my application on a mismatch, but I ain't no Mister. Especially considering the form was at my gender doctor, and this form will in effect be the first official notice to the federal government that I have gender dysphoria. I thought about it for about 45 seconds and then ticked off "Ms", reasoning that there is no official meaning to any of those titles, and if their purpose was to inquire about sex then they should have done that instead of asking for a title.

That's life in the trans lane, when you want to throw routine correspondence against the wall because it tries to mis-gender you.


It's called a "reality check". Don't just blow it off.

I get the impression, reading your posts, that you would probably tell my mother that she doesn't "pass". Take what I look like when I'm tired, dry out the skin some, and more vertical crease lines, and you get what my mother looks like -- not just "there is a family resemblance" but instead "people who have been friends with my mother for 25 years confuse the two of us in face pictures".

You have been a big advocate of the "don't go out unless you are perfect" view. Well, reality is that at my age, many GG are less than "perfect" when they are buying groceries, getting gas, going to appointments, buying a regular cup of coffee, and otherwise Getting On With Life.

I don't live my life to conform to society's mistaken notions of what people "should" look like. I go as far as to take a brush to my bad hair before going out for the day. WWWD (What Would a Woman Do)? My wife puts on a bit of lipstick and might add a bit of rouge, and then it's out the door in whatever she happens to be wearing; the lipstick is the only thing she consistently bothers to "make time for". If you were to seriously suggest that she ought to be wearing her pearls to go to buy milk, she would respond with an incredulous exclamation. And if I were to wear the pearls I would stick out, not for looking male but because no-one around here wears anything like that unless they are going somewhere fancy.

Reality check?

The woman I sat beside on the bus yesterday couldn't be bothered to look up from her smartphone to see what I looked like -- and couldn't be bothered to shift an inch further left even though she was taking up more than half the seat. But a short time later, when I was standing again, after some people got off, a woman sat down in the back seat, glanced up to see me standing there, flicked her eyes at the two guys seating further along the back seat, curled her lips briefly in momentary displeasure and pushed her eyes and forehead up a little, conveying "Men!" about the two guys taking up room, and pushed herself further over with her hands while tilting her head towards me a bit, and thus made room for me to sit down. The flash of expressions and movements did not convey "People ought to be looking to make room for other people!": it conveyed "Guys should make room for not-guys to sit down." This woman I had never seen before, quite unconscious of doing anything "special", had, in less than a second, observed me in my jeggings and plain top and barely-colored lips, and had mentally classified me not necessarily as being "female" but as "not a male".

That is how the majority of people around react to me: Not A Male, Not A Kook, Not A Threat, but rather a Person Doing Person Things. As in, "Of course he's wearing a dress; what's strange about that?"

Anyhow: Lori, there is, naturally, an important difference between "fitting in" well as a Non-Male, versus being a Female. You need to decide where you want to spend your energies at this time: is it important to you to be perceived as a Female, or is it more important to you at this stage to be perceived as doing what is right and proper for you ?

[Barbara Ella]

Lorileah, your outings have always been inspirational. Just remember that everyone....EVERYONE...regardless of anything have up and down days, so don't expect not to have your share. With transitioning, like all have said, you have a more sensitive spot (more like an open would) when you go out. It will get rubbed wrong, but that does not mean you are wrong.


And for God's sake, what woman hasn't felt her evening was ruined when she couldn't get her hair to work out right. Totally understandable why the rest of the evening just couldn't work.

Keep up the spirits girl.

Barbara

[MysticLady]

Is this a common occurrence? If so, I need to know so I can plan ahead on those days.

Always expect the topsy turvey feelings I'm afraid. At least when they hit your ready for them. Now, how to learn to "expect" is the next thing. Once you figure it out, please let me know.:)

[mary something]

I'm so glad you're feeling better Lorileah, hope that beautiful smile is back on your face!

Inna I really appreciated your post and perspective and reminds me of one of my favorite Buddha quotes

There are only two mistakes one can make along the road to truth; not going all the way, and not starting.

[Lorileah]

I sent an apology to two of the people who I had really disrespected by storming out. I told them that I was just upset for many things but that the major one was that my friends could not see me as a woman. I know theye didn't mean any harm but I was on edge.

Anyway I got a reply from both. They both said don't worry about it. But one said
I can't even imagine what you must go through while you literally have to live as two different identities. I can only hope that you have the willingness and the patience to deal with those of us who do not really know how to handle it in a way that is not hurtful to you. We don't mean to offend or hurt you but please understand that you have such a long time of coming to some terms with this and we are new to it all
So now I feel really bad. Not only are they trying to understand but they brought up a point. I have done this all my life. They have had about a year and I keep switching on them. They never know who will show up. It can be confusing. But that is how it is. They knew me "before". So I should not expect them to adjust overnight.

But the last two days have been 180 degrees different. I just spent a half hour with a client who is very supportive and wants to help (she is a make up artist). In the big scheme of things, most of the people I meet are supportive. Which is why Weds night was such a shock I think (and it wasn't even them it was ME).

If I am to walk this path I am going to have to learn there will be stumbles

[Jonianne]

Hi Lorileah. When I get "sired" I try to think of being Peppermint Patty, where they always call her "sir", even though they knew she was a girl. The hardest thing is when the most supportive ones tend to sir me even more than others. My full time at work begins Monday after next, so we will see if they continue or if I need to talk to them about it.

[Nicole Erin]

If people knew you as the male before, that tends to stick. There just isn't much you can do about it.

[pose007]

I have some sympathy for people who have a hard time accepting a name change etc. My daughter decided in her early teens that she hated her first name and preferred her second name and she was dead serious. I can not tell you how many times I made the mistake and called her by the wrong name. All in all it took me over a year to consistently get it right. She stuck with it and now everyone calls her by her second name.

[vikki2020]

We've all had those days--the trick is to get through them, and move along! After a while, you don't even fell the bumps in the road!

[Badtranny]

Hi Lorileah. When I get "sired" I try to think of being Peppermint Patty, where they always call her "sir", even though they knew she was a girl.

Only Marcie called her Sir.

Patty and Marcie are now running a cute little organic grocery & deli in Vermont.

[Jonianne]

I'm sure you are right, Melissa. Wonder why they live in Vermont? Hmmmmmm

[sandra-leigh]

Patty and Marcie are now running a cute little organic grocery & deli in Vermont.

There have been numerous people over the years who have said that Marcie was gay for sure, and had her sights on Patti; and there has apparently been a bunch of fanfic about the two of them entering into a lesbian relationship. I've seen it written that in the fanfic when Patti and Marcie are written as having threesomes, that it is usually with Pigpen (who is, one might recall, actually a pleasant person.)

[kellycan27]

Lori... Just put it in 4 wheel drive and put the pedal to the metal!