Gender and Sexuality

[andrea lace]

Me and my son were watching the championship play off final (football). The camera panned around the crowd and and focused in on two individuals namely Elton John and Eddie Izzard. My 16 year old son pipped up that both were gays and I corrected him that Mr Issard was in fact straight. My lad pipped up that he was wearing red nail varnish so he must in fact be homosexual.

I tried to explain to him that sexuality and gender are two different things but it was like talking to a brick wall. I have tried to bring up my children to be accepting of other life styles but it has not rubbed off on him.

It would seem that teenagers in the UK tend to learn and pick up on attitudes from there school friends and not there parents.

My son does not know about my CDing and while he has this attitude of his I wont be telling him any time soon. Well after a heated discussion on gender issues he just said that it was his opinion that Eddie Izzard is gay and nothing I said would change it so frustrated that I could not get through to him I went to the kitchen missed the end of the football and did some chores.

[Brenda79135]

Been there, done that. Teenage kids know everything, just ask them. I went thru the same thing with my daughter. She would listen to everybody but the wife and I. To a teenager, parents are only good at doing one thing. Acting like an ATM. Hopfully he will come around when he gets out on his own. They tend to discover that mom and dad actually knew what they were talking about.

[Angela Campbell]

It is funny how much my father learned between the years when I was 16 to 26. When I was 16 he was dumb as a rock, and when I was 26 he was a genius.

[Beverley Sims]

Yes it is frustrating that they learn a lot if incorrect things at the school of learning.
It is called peer group pressure along with the fact that parents are dumb.

[Samantha_Smile]

Ahhh kids.
I'm still young enough to remember 'knowing everything' and it's a cause of great shame to me.
My advice, don't go too hard on the lad, one day he will work it out for himself and you guys will get along better as a result. This is what happened for me and now me and my dad get along awesome.

I would however remind him that his opinion isn't necessarily fact. Add that if 2+2=4, then he CAN'T hod the opinion that it =5.

[Megan_Renee]

Andrea -- Try Socratic method with him instead. I don't always remember to do this with my kids, but it helps. Children HATE to be told things.

Questions you can ask:
What does it mean to be Gay?
What does a gay person look like?
Why do you think that someone should look a certain way if they are gay?
How would you feel if people used a word to describe you because of how you look and act? (Words like Prick, Jock, etc...)

Finally, a question series just because it's awesome:
Why are people gay?
When did you chose to be straight?
So do you think people chose to be gay?

Now, when you do this the first time, he will probably end up being combative. Remain calm and say, "I'm not asking you about anything personal, I'm just asking you some questions to better understand how you are thinking." Resist the urge to correct him at this time, but look for teachable moments while you're doing stuff. When you see a gay couple that doesn't fit his stereotype, casually point them out. When you see an obviously straight couple that doesn't fit his stereotype, point them out! Accidentally leave www.reddit.com/r/malepolish up on the computer when he asks to surf the web.

[docrobbysherry]

Don't blame this kind of ignorance on your kid, Andrea.

When I began dressing out of the blue at age 50, I assumed I must be gay, too! It took me years to figure out I wasn't.

[Wildaboutheels]

Yup. pretty much sums up many/most younger adults. BUT, in their defense, probably most all of us here, also had the same mindset when we were that young.

The "troubling" and "sad" thing to me is how many adults are "out there" today, who were teens 20, 30 or 40 or more years ago and STILL maintain that closed minded attitude on SO many things. They are pretty easy to identify and I have learned not to waste even one word on them [as to changing their mind on anything] as it is akin to talking to a rock.

If it helps any, your teen sounds pretty typical to me, so don't worry that your efforts at tolerance haven't paid off. I'll bet that once your son leaves his teenage years behind, you will be able to see that your efforts have paid off.

[ReineD]

He's not ready to hear it because of his age. He might have understood better a few years ago, and he may well be better able to understand once he is past this difficult stage of establishing his male sexual identity among his peers.

But it just shows how deeply ingrained are our beliefs in the very subtle gender cues that people emanate. It all ties back to the birds and the bees, I suppose. I think it's safe to say that generally, people have a difficult time understanding why a person would want to adopt some or all of the culturally determined, opposite sex presentation cues, these cues that communicate to others the most basic fact that we do belong (or wish to belong) to a particular gender group. And since we are sexual beings, and 95% of the world population is hetero, then it's not a stretch to believe that if someone wants to appear as the opposite gender (fully or partially), it is because they want to attract the opposite sex.

Obviously I know the difference between gender presentation and gender identity, but the incongruence only applies to a small group of people and I do understand why folks who are not familiar with the members of this community would have a difficult time comprehending any of this. The exception are the people who wish to break customs, and who are doing so defiantly for example, the hippies during the 60s or the goths in later years. Yet, still there were gendered presentation differences between the men and the women who adopted those styles that made it easy to determine the gender that a person wished to portray themselves as.

[biggirlsarah]

Eddie Izzard is a transvestite as a matter of fact in his shows he refers to himself as an executive transvestite, he is however not a homosexual,just because he wears nail varnish doesn't make him gay, sleeping with men would do that.

[mikiSJ]

There has been a series of PSAs in the Bay Area (and hopefully elsewhere) taking to task teens that use the term "oh, that's so gay". The gist of the PSA is that "gay" is a term that few teens understand.

Of course, the bully who heads the pack is always going to have more knowledge than the parents of his followers. It has been like that forever. The only thing we can do, as adult/parents, is continue to chip away at the ignorance and understand that most teens, at some point in the future, become adults, both physically and mentally.

[Greenie]

I disagree about it just being his age. I am sure that you have tried as hard as you can to raise a well rounded son who is non judgmental. It doesn't look like those lessons took. I think that his age is an excuse for poor behavior. He KNOWS that its not nice to call people "Gay" and treat people in that manner. 16 is not to young to know the difference. Mind you, I am only 23, I have the age of 16 still fresh in my memory. keep trying to get him out of that habit and work on him. With perseverance it will come. Also don't be afraid to assert your authority as a parent, children need that and to be put in their place. Had I not been put in my place as a kid I would be very different.

[boink]

I don't think it's exclusive to any culture that children tend to pick up a lot of their attitudes from peers and the media, as much as parents do have a strong influence on them.

My question is what is making him so defiant about it? Does he have an issue with homosexuality? Feminine men? Is he worried about being perceived as gay? Does he know more about you than you think? 16 can be a tough age to be at, and is right in the heart of a time period where someone is figuring out their own identity and attractions. Still if you want your teen growing up to know that gender identity and sexuality are separate, and that acceptance is an important value in your family, then it's worth doing some regular followup on the topic.

[Frédérique]

My 16 year old son pipped up that both were gays and I corrected him that Mr Izzard was in fact straight. My lad pipped up that he was wearing red nail varnish so he must in fact be homosexual. My son does not know about my CDing and while he has this attitude of his I wont be telling him any time soon. Well after a heated discussion on gender issues he just said that it was his opinion that Eddie Izzard is gay and nothing I said would change it so frustrated that I could not get through to him I went to the kitchen missed the end of the football and did some chores.

Yeah, you can’t hear if you don’t listen, you won’t see if you don’t look, and you’ll never understand something if you are not predisposed to be interested in things outside the ordinary. If I had a son, I wonder how I would handle this clash of cultures…

Amazingly (to some), you can crossdress, MtF, and NOT be gay. Also, you can sit next to a gay gentleman, carry on an interesting conversation, and not be gay by association. You can like all sorts of things traditionally associated with homosexuals (like colors, for example), and not be gay yourself. Oh, people will ASSUME you’re gay, because we live in an age where GAY means bad, or wrong, and strength and/or manliness are continually put forward as the finest of virtues. That’s all well and good, to some, since conflict seems to be the main “point” of being male…

An innocent act like painting one’s nails, perhaps to express (or indicate) one’s unwillingness to swim WITH the stream, is really beautiful, and it is at odds with ugliness. The latter seems to be the accepted norm at present, so homosexuality, or any celebration of the senses, is suspect. Your son is simply attuned to his surroundings, or he has bought into them. It’s an easy way out, while intrepid individuals, like the ones you mentioned in the OP, are doing things the HARD way, albeit their way…
:straightface:

[andrea lace]

Thank you for all your ideas and opinions it is good to know what other people think.
My wife has said to me that he isn't as bigoted as he is making himself out to be and that he is in fact arguing for arguments sake. If that is the case I feel that we have succeeded as parents on some levels, our son is more broad minded than I was at that age and that we are generally very open minded about things and this has rubbed off onto him.
But he is only 16 and yes I agree he is learning about his own identity wants and needs as a person.
Hopefully we will continue to educate him and guide him along the path of life as best we can.

[Lorileah]

just because he wears nail varnish doesn't make him gay, sleeping with men would do that.

Whew:whew!: I am still OK I have never slept. actually the OP made that same point. But more on topic, even if he is arguing for argument's sake I have a concern here. The first is why the son needed to even make the comment to start. Is there some reason being homosexual demanded he point it out to you? And regardless of age the communication needs to be that even pretending to be self righteous is a bad character flaw. It would be a great time to convince the son that just because all their friends are bigots, he does not have to play along. There was a reason he had to point that out. I find it concerning.

[Amanda Katharine]

Your post makes me think of a statement that a friend of mine's dad said some years back. The 3 of us were in Wal-Mart and he saw the self-checkouts which utterly puzzled him because he'd never seen such a thing before. He asked what they were, my friend told him they were for people who just wanted to check themselves out and not wait in line. This man's response was verbatim: "Stuff like that's the reason there's so many queers in the world."

Now aside from the ignorant southern homophobia that runs in this man's blood, how in the blue hell does technology correlate to perceived increased percentages of homosexuals? Or better yet, how does it even relate to homosexuals in any way to begin with?

[Jamie001]

My son does not know about my CDing and while he has this attitude of his I wont be telling him any time soon. Well after a heated discussion on gender issues he just said that it was his opinion that Eddie Izzard is gay and nothing I said would change it so frustrated that I could not get through to him I went to the kitchen missed the end of the football and did some chores.

Andrea,

Maybe the best thing that you could do for him is to be honest and tell him that you crossdress and he will see that crossdressers are not necessarily gay. It may be a good life lesson for him.

[Diane Smith]

how in the blue hell does technology correlate to perceived increased percentages of homosexuals? Or better yet, how does it even relate to homosexuals in any way to begin with?

It seems to have mostly receded from use now, but back in the late '90s in the high school where I teach, everyday teenage slang adopted the word "gay" as a synonym for "strange" or "unusual." (Which, I guess, is what "queer" originally meant, too.) It was used casually, without any thought or hesitation at all, like a kid would say, "wow, that's really gay" when a computer acted up or a bell went off at an unexpected time or, in short, when they observed anything out of the ordinary. I did my best to discourage this and explain that it was insulting to a lot of people, but the power of peers and the media far exceeds that of an individual teacher to affect teen behavior, for good or ill. I'm glad this particular trend has died out. Your friend's dad was probably making a similar misguided connection between something he didn't understand, and a group of people he didn't understand; I don't exactly get why it happens, but it seems to be a peculiar habit of the human brain to try and find these rather silly correlations.

I'm sure you were too flabbergasted and/or embarrassed to say anything -- I would be too -- but if the circumstances are right, I think it is appropriate to comment on how silly such an assumption really is.

- Diane

[mikiSJ]

Diane


but back in the late '90s in the high school where I teach,

It is still part of the pre-adult lexicon.

[Amanda Katharine]

It seems to have mostly receded from use now, but back in the late '90s in the high school where I teach, everyday teenage slang adopted the word "gay" as a synonym for "strange" or "unusual." (Which, I guess, is what "queer" originally meant, too.) It was used casually, without any thought or hesitation at all, like a kid would say, "wow, that's really gay" when a computer acted up or a bell went off at an unexpected time or, in short, when they observed anything out of the ordinary. I did my best to discourage this and explain that it was insulting to a lot of people, but the power of peers and the media far exceeds that of an individual teacher to affect teen behavior, for good or ill. I'm glad this particular trend has died out. Your friend's dad was probably making a similar misguided connection between something he didn't understand, and a group of people he didn't understand; I don't exactly get why it happens, but it seems to be a peculiar habit of the human brain to try and find these rather silly correlations.

I'm sure you were too flabbergasted and/or embarrassed to say anything -- I would be too -- but if the circumstances are right, I think it is appropriate to comment on how silly such an assumption really is.

- Diane


To be honest, I actually had to walk away to laugh. Not because the comment was funny but because I just couldn't fathom that I had actually heard a real human being say something that stupid. This is also the same man who truly believes that country band Lady Antebellum is actually a group that promotes MMA events. I really wish I was making that up.

[Andromeda]

I agree that the Socratic method may be the best way to go, but, you might point out that Mr. Izzard is a performer and may not remove colored nails in order to not damage his nails or to make sure he is noticed etc..

[marlenesexton]

Trying to define gender and sexuality is pointless. It's all a big jumble of shades of gray (not the book). My wife and I are very tolerant and have tried to pass that on to our kids (we'd better be considering all the stuff were into ;) ) but they both went through periods of homophobia. I think it's normal. Now in our very small school (graduating class of less than 20) there is one openly gay boy and one girl that is very masculine though I'm not sure she's openly anything. All I know is the girl that wore a tuxedo to my prom turned out to be a lesbian (she was also my first kiss - in kindergarten) and the girl at my kid's school wore a tuxedo. My kids are friends with both now. Kid's react with instincts and fearing the unknown is an instinct. If you are practicing what you preach and being consistent with the message, they will grow out of it.

[shawnsheila]

As a few members here have stated, when I was 16 I thought I knew it all and both my parents "had no clue" By the time I reached 21 and had my own child, I matured quite a bit and actually saw the wisdom in my parents words and even apologized to them for it and told them they had sound advice. All that being said, at 16, i had no clue about sexuality as I was still in the early stages of my own and only have models from Church and TV as to what was correct. It was while I was in college did I learn and mature more with my attitude towards what sexuality is. It just make take some time for your son that's all.

[ReineD]

Well after a heated discussion on gender issues he just said that it was his opinion that Eddie Izzard is gay and nothing I said would change it

I agree with others who've said that "gay" often means odd, in a lame way. Your son might not have been thinking about Izzard's sexuality but instead was commenting on the fact that he wouldn't be caught dead wearing nail polish, like most other 16 year old boys. My youngest son thinks that contemporary hipsters (not the first hipsters in the 90s) are gay, and he does not mean "homosexual" by this. He feels that today's hipsters are superficial phonies and they embody attitudes that he does not agree with.

[Wildaboutheels]

Well, if the subject comes up again, you can simply ask him how many gay friends he has? Chances are good, that he has at least one gay friend [if not more - be they males or females] that he is not even aware of.

Many people want to believe that gays are fleeing the closet left and right and that there is no longer any reason for them to stay hidden and that they make up just a tiny percentage of Society.

OH REALLY?

FACT: The Civil War ended on May 9, 1865. Blacks did not get voting rights till ONE HUNDRED years later. Even today, almost 150 years after the CW ended, Blacks STILL face discriminatory practices, UNlawful search and seizure etc.

I wouldn't hold my breath on gays coming out en masse any time soon.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Andrea, It sounds like Andrea and your son should not meet anytime soon.

[reb.femme]

Hi Andrea,

I go with Blue Orchid. I wouldn't risk a meeting for Andrea and your son, just not the right time in his life.

Also, Wildaboutheels is spot on. I always use to ask my dad how many gay friends he had and of course he replied 'none'. It would be a fair bet to say that he just wasn't aware of them.

And to cap it all, you missed seeing the mighty Eagles win!

Rebecca

[andrea lace]

Hi there!
Thank you for your advice and sharing your ideas. I feel that andrea is not someone I will introduce to my son. A conversation may happen if there is are questions that he has about himself in the future. I know that he isn't a bigot and that he is just 16 with a life full of new experiences a head of him. It is our job as parents to guide him through.