Depravity – let’s talk about it

[Frédérique]

Many years ago, when homosexuality was illegal, either officially or unofficially, some gay males were forced to embrace the idea of depravity, as in “My story is one of human depravity.” Perhaps, but times have changed. Now you rarely hear this word woven into everyday conversation. Is depravity a dead issue?

I bring this up because a day rarely goes by around here without the phrase “Are you gay?” being trotted out like some well-roasted chestnut. Since we, the MtF crossdressers, are “made” gay by association, wouldn’t it follow that we are kindred spirits of depravity? I’m talking about old perceptions dying hard, and people, namely those people who have a chronic “problem” with crossdressing, clinging to things their parents and grandparents taught them...

What exactly is depravity, anyway? It is akin to corruption and perversion (key word there), whereby someone becomes morally bad or is led into bad habits. To put it another way, a person is contaminated in some way, i.e. led away from a straight path to a more crooked (or bent) path. It’s interesting (and revealing) to me that homosexuals would be ever be considered to be depraved in some way, doing something that is purely natural, but misunderstood by “correct” society. In short, you’re supposed to adhere to certain morals, as prescribed by society at large, and, when you go astray, depravation is the result. I see this as no more than a warning, or another way to put the lid on individuality...

Depravity is apparently a disposition or settled tendency to evil, the act of making something crooked. Again, the “bent” aspect may be the prime analogy here. Ever since Adam and Eve were fictitiously expulsed from Eden, Man’s nature has been considered innately bad because of original sin. So, any willful ignorance of the moral framework put in place for our benefit is met with special words like depravity, degeneracy, or corruption. You’re doing something WRONG, in the eyes of society, therefore you are BAD. This is extremely unfair, if you ask me...

For one thing, I’m not morally bad, but I crossdress. Is MtF crossdressing a “bad habit” that I’ve fallen into? NO! I willfully began to crossdress out of curiosity, and I have always considered it to be a GOOD thing. It brings me pleasure – is seeking (or obtaining) pleasure a bad thing? It may be, if I’m correctly reading the precepts hurled in my direction, 24/7. Is crossdressing somehow evil? That may be how a lot of people “see” it, otherwise why would there be so many outcries from all the “normal” people? Everyone is doing their best to be good (I guess), and I’m doing the same, but I am some kind of pervert for wearing women’s clothes. Go figure. Not only that, I must be depraved as well...

No, my story is not one of human depravity, but I feel a kinship with homosexuals, as well as any intrepid pioneer in the field of sexual (gender) experimentation. I do what comes naturally, while others point the finger in my general direction. In my mind, and in my eyes, there is plenty of depravity going on in the world of conformity, hidden amongst the good intentions, while my kind is singled out for censure. Depravity is a STRONG word, indicative of strong perversion. You hear the word degenerate more often, and it means going from bad to worse. We all know what a degenerate is, but it also means someone who has lost former, normal, or “higher” qualities. This means that you’re not supposed to do something “low,” or abnormal, like MtF crossdressing...

I am definitely NOT normal, but does that make me an example of human depravity? It all depends on who is looking down upon me, I suppose. I take great pains to not judge anyone, and I wish others wouldn’t judge me based on my crossdressing proclivities. I am a morally upright citizen, worthy of respect, trustworthy, kind, and...ahem...no danger to anyone. My crossdressing certainly doesn’t bother me, but it seems to bother everyone else. I do not represent evil, or corruption personified, or walking amorality, but I DO represent the good (human) stuff...

How would you explain that crossdressing is a GOOD thing, and not a form of depravity? :thinking:

[VictoriaPaul]

To answer your question at the end, you could say it makes you more sensitive and empathetic to the difficulties that many women go through every day.

Yoy could also claim that some of the time you do it out of physical comfort (if you spend any time wearing loose skirts/dresses).

You could also claim by an extension of that last reason, that men of many non-western cultures wear loose robes, sarongs, or togas, and that they're not considered depraved.

You could mention the double standard that the pope, his clergy, some 4th world pacific islanders and africans wear non bifurcated clothes.

[NicoleScott]

How would you explain that crossdressing is a GOOD thing, and not a form of depravity?

It depends on the point of view. To someone so convinced, I am depraved because I crossdress. No explanation would ever work.
To others, even non-crossdressers, it's no big deal, just clothing. No explanation is necessary.
To some, I'm tall - to others, I'm short.
Rich/poor
Smart/ stupid
It's the POV.

[Kate Simmons]

I don't suffer from depravity(as defined by "society") my friend, I enjoy every minute of it. "There ya go!" as McCloud used to say. ;):)

[Miriam-J]

I think depravity implies a degree of sociopathic insensitivity to the harm that your activity causes, such as child pornography or sexual exploitation. So the response should focus on who is harmed and in what way that harm is evidenced. If the only harm to someone is inciting their own bluster, or perhaps improving their openness, I've got to wonder who is really showing depravity.

Miriam

[Amanda M]

Depravity, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. I've often had the feeling that some strict vegans think I'm depraved because I eat dead animals and fish. I would, of course be totally acceptable if I ate only veggies, but did it en femme.

[Angie G]

I cross dress and try to do the right thing. Such as one night coming home from work. I passed i young man on the side of the road out of gas. I stoped And let him use my cell his was dead.Not able to get someone I gave him a ride home.He wanted to give my somthing for it and I told him it was O.K..The ride was over 10 miles. He told me thank you and about 15 cars went by and no one stoped to help. Just trying to be the best person I can be.I wonder if any of the 15 that passed this kid ever needed help? And I told no one of this,:hugs:
Angie

[Angela Campbell]

As you said about yourself, I am a good person with strong morals. I am honest, I am fair, and I try my best to help people and to live a clean and healthy life. Am I depraved because I am a woman that has the body of a man? I do not think so. I never saw in the ten commandments where it says "thou shalt not wear the wrong clothes as prescribed by society" or "thou shalt not change your body to match your gender". Instead it says "thou shalt not bear false witness" so in this sense I should not attempt to lead a life as a gender in which I do not think I am.

Is that depraved?

[Beverley Sims]

Frédérique,
Just as Olde English has changed over the years so does our present language.
It is dynamic and constantly evolving.
Think of words used to describe African Americans.
Some of those are considered downright insulting in the US today.
Overseas they are still used as a descriptor.

Maybe depravity is less used as there are other more popular words used as descriptors, some all embracing and others more specific.
The media is always finding new ways of describing things.
Think of English used in parts of the UK.
There are the Geordies in the north of England and the Cockneys in London.
There are the Welsh, Scottish and Gaelic and they all have some of the centuries old verbiage in the language.
Closer to home, the American Indian.
Some customs and languages have died out.
Spanish is an old universal language.
The Spanish used here is different to the Spanish in Spain.
To accommodate new words into the language such as technical jargon, English phrases are used.
There is no Spanish.

So those depraved and those blessed with depravity have probably moved on.
Maybe X Dressing is the new depravity.
Just that people do not express themselves that way any more.

[Persephone]

How would you explain that crossdressing is a GOOD thing, and not a form of depravity? :thinking:

You have to ask the X-Men that question, or read H. G. Wells short story, "The Country of the Blind." (http://www.readbookonline.net/readOnLine/2157/)

In short, Frédérique, you are asking them to see when they don't have eyes.

"They" can never understand, "they" can watch the birds fly, "they" can study birds all they want, but "they" can never imagine what it feels like to fly.

The bigger problem is always how we see ourselves and that's where we have to come to understand that we have been given an extraordinary gift, one that can take us beyond the abilities of the ordinary and that can allow us to travel beyond their wildest dreams. We are the ones who can fly!

Throwing off the baggage of being "different" and celebrating being ourselves is what matters, not what "they" think.

Hugs,
Persephone.

[Tess]

It has always felt natural to me and harmless. There are activities that deserve a depraved designation as well as a prison sentence but those activities cause harm to the innocent.

[Vanessa5]

I have been the depraved/degenerate/sociopath (or at least called those). Just ask some of my exgirlfriends. Once I am found out to wear and enjoy womens clothes I become a pervert/childmolester. I am not of course but try and tell people and only their opinion is heard. I know in my heart I am none of those things but society says I am. In my opinion society needs to change. Normalcy need a good kick in the rump. We deserve to be treated as we treat those around us and not be judged because of what we wear.

[DebbieL]

I remember my grandmother telling me about how her mother and her aunt homesteaded in Montana and had to wear skirts over their pants because a woman wearing pants was "depraved".

Many organized religions who promote the rigid gender roles and conformity consider the "King James Bible" to be the "Divine word of God". What they forget or never bother to learn is that this particular translation, along with the Latin translations were propaganda efforts. There were many passages that reduced women to the role of "Maiden", "Mother", or "Harlot", even though there are nearly 100 Hebrew words for feminine roles.

The Catholic church considered midwives to be evil because they reduced the pain of child-birth. Women who helped deliver babies could be burned at the stake, after being tortured into naming other women who may have helped, or widows who had property the church wanted to seize.

Joan of Arc was a hero to the French, but was considered satanic by the English. The Catholics hated Elizabeth and sided with Bloody Mary and then Mary of Scots, James' mother. Elizabeth and James' protestant tutors made a point of making sure that the young prince knew that King Henry had many daughters and *******s who would want to assert their claim on the throne. The King James bible attempted to minimize such people by discrediting women in general, children born out of wedlock, and homosexuals, as well as those who wore the clothes of the wrong gender. Cross-dressing was especially a problem when women wore armor of a knight. Both Mary and Elizabeth wore such armor regularly, especially in battle. But after several decades of bloody war and purges, it was no longer a welcome sight.

Depravity is a cultural concept, and what is considered depravity in one age may have been commonplace in other times. Monogomy was introduced by Augustus Ceasar to prevent Tiberius from marrying his daughter then marrying some other woman and relegating his daughter to some minor status once Augustus was dead.

When Augustus first introduced monogamy, that was considered a perversion. Often, after wars, soldiers would take as many wives as they could, since most of the men of the city or country were now dead.

In Saudi Arabia, a man is allowed to have 4 wives. The first wife is usually political, the second wife is more like a maid or nanny, the third might be for sex, and the fourth is more of a "temporary wife" who can be married for a week-end or short period and then divorced - because her family gives no dowry that has to be paid back.

In other parts of the world, men have even more wives, depending on their rank. I chief like Obama's great-grandfather might have a dozen wives or more.

Even though I wasn't homosexual, I gravitated toward the gay community because it was a place where I felt more "safe". I wanted to be a girl and I was attracted to girls, and had know idea what that made me. When women tried to please me the way they would please men, I was too ticklish, but when they seduced me the way they would seduce a woman, especially when I was dressed, I was much more responsive. I also pleased them more like a woman would please a woman.

Fundamentally, it boils down to one thing. If you have to force someone to do something they don't want to do to please yourself sexually, that's not just depraved, it's rape. Conversely, if someone attempts to force you to do something (or not do something) that pleases you - even though you are not forcing them to participate, and may have a willing and eager partner, that's depraved.

If someone castrated a man or a boy because they wanted them to not have sex, the person who castrated them would get the full force of the law.

It's disgusting that many people feel they have the right to castrate someone by forcing them to deny themselves the things that give them pleasure.

Depravity is in the mind of the beholder - and the victim.

[marlenesexton]

I'm depraved and proud of it. Letting others define you is half the problem we all face. It's not your problem that you crossdress, it's there problem. As far as explaining it, you're enjoying it and not hurting anyone. 'Nuf said.

Now when people follow opinion with action to discriminate or denigrate, that's awful. They are hurting others. Sad that some people need to make others conform to feel good about themselves, but they do.

[Lucy_Bella]

No, my story is not one of human depravity, but I feel a kinship with homosexuals, as well as any intrepid pioneer in the field of sexual (gender) experimentation. I do what comes naturally, while others point the finger in my general direction. In my mind, and in my eyes, there is plenty of depravity going on in the world of conformity, hidden amongst the good intentions, while my kind is singled out for censure. Depravity is a STRONG word, indicative of strong perversion. You hear the word degenerate more often, and it means going from bad to worse. We all know what a degenerate is, but it also means someone who has lost former, normal, or “higher” qualities. This means that you’re not supposed to do something “low,” or abnormal, like MtF crossdressing...


I believe that most people see Crossdressing as a " voluntary act " just as Gay's were thought of until recent times..Sex should be considered as a voluntary act( a society rule because other than that it's rape) but "attraction " or " preference " shouldn't because it is in no way a volunteered act..This ( IMO ) ,is the same with crossdressing ..We volunteer ourselves to emulate the sex we was born opposite of..By making ourselves do it is the act..However the driving force that makes us commit the act is un-voluntary..

In the early days for Gay's it was impossible for the majority of " straights" to understand homosexuality, how could they ? They are not gay! As with many cders gay's also stayed in the closet until they fought for their rights and even still today many are victims of hate crimes.. I think many of us here( straight cders) have a better understanding for the homosexual lifestyle because of our cding and what drives us to do it ..We know it is not an act or for the most part,a choice..

[mikiSJ]

I cannot remember the use of 'depravity' in reference to homosexuality. This is likely due to not knowing everyone or having read everything.

I hear the term 'depravity' used today in the sense of a depraved event: a bombing in a marketplace/or place where a lot of people have gathered (Boston); the killing of a large number of people (Sandy Hook); or, the mailing of Ricin letters to individuals (today's news).

[KellyJameson]

Depravity is paying retail for the clothes, not wearing them.

[Frédérique]

I know in my heart I am none of those things but society says I am. In my opinion society needs to change. Normalcy need a good kick in the rump. We deserve to be treated as we treat those around us and not be judged because of what we wear.
I post these things, or subjects, because I’m interested in WHY MtF crossdressing is so hard for so-called normal people to swallow. You can be the nicest person in town, but if you crossdress you are doing something definitely queer, at least in the eyes and minds of conformists. It all began somewhere, long ago, when any deviance from the norm was labeled depravity. I wish to say that MtF crossdressing CAN be depraved in the extreme, but not necessarily so. However, everyone jumps to extremes, and there is no use trying to sway opinion in this matter – at least we can treat other crossdressers with respect, since we want it for ourselves…


I cannot remember the use of 'depravity' in reference to homosexuality. This is likely due to not knowing everyone or having read everything.

Read The Naked Civil Servant by Quentin Crisp and be enlightened, my dear… :straightface:

[mikiSJ]

Read The Naked Civil Servant by Quentin Crisp and be enlightened, my dear… :straightface:[/QUOTE]

Frédérique

I did, way back when! So, it isn't that I don't know everyone, or everything - it is I have CRS!

[kimdl93]

Depravity implies evil or corruption, but under each is the presumption that the 'depraved' are harmful to themselves, others or larger society. While any one of us may take actions that could be considered harmful in some way, I would argue thatour gender expression is itself in no way harmful. It's just different from the norm. It seems that almost societally approved behaviors can be harmful in some manner or context, so why should CDing be uniquely depraved?

[AshleyW]

Somtimes I worry that crossdressing could cause me to become depraved. Not, of course, because I think there's anything wrong with it: there isn't. But there's so much guilt and shame directed towards us from our society that it's hard not to internalize some of it. And regardless of what I know to be true when I think about it rationally, I worry that in some deep, twisting part of my soul, where the light of rational thought cannot penetrate, I have already accepted and come to believe the hideous lie that crossdressing is perverse.

But then, because crossdressing is a fundamental part of who I am, that means that on some subconscious level, I already believe myself to be a pervert. And if I believe I'm a pervert, that's what I'll become, right? Don't we see this sort of thing happen all the time with the other lies our society tells? Suppose someone from an impoverished minority background is told all his life that he'll never accomplish anything: if he comes to believe it, then that's exactly what will happen. We as crossdressers are by no means exempt from this this cycle.

Our only hope of escape is telling ourselves, and each other, the truth.