Question about changing into a real woman

[ReineD]

This thread:

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?195350-What-if-you-could-instantly-change-into-a-real-woman-would-you-do-it

There are 7 pages already. Many of you said that you would change ONLY if you could be an attractive (or cute, or young, or shapely) woman.

My question is, assuming that most of you are female-attracted, why would you like to embody someone whom males are specifically attracted to? Why not simply remove your male gender cues and be like an identical sister would be?

[Nikki A.]

Why be an ugly old woman if I can be young and cute. I guess we all try to be as presentable as possible.

[kimdl93]

Interesting question. I'm not much for hypotheticals, and don't have much interest in impossible what ifs. But if I must, I'd rather be reasonably attractive...or at least no hideous. After all, I have to see myself in the mirror. I've managed to adjust my reaction to that reality to the point where i think I look ok...a lot like a masculinized version of my mom.

[Sabrina133]

am bi and attracted to guys as well as women so if am going to be GG, i'd rather be a cute GG that men find attractive.

[Kate Simmons]

I would go with the hand I was dealt with Reine.It's really not about looks to me but about who I am as a person and how I relate to others. Many of us have already proven we can be a decent looking gal via makeup and imagination regardless of what we look like when we start. As far as I'm concerned the biggest part of being a woman is caring and sharing and being empathetic. Everything else is a nice to have.:)

[ReineD]

Hi Sabrina, thank you. I do understand why CDers who have sex with men would want to be attractive to them. I was curious about the CDers who are female-attracted.

[Jana]

These answers may indicate a correlation between fetishistic CDing and autogynephilia. Maybe they'd like to be young and cute because that's what's attractive to them.

But, what do I know? I'm no shrink. I speak for myself, and if I ever come to transition, I'll be happy just being female.

[Sabrina133]

Hi Sabrina, thank you. I do understand why CDers who have sex with men would want to be attractive to them. I was curious about the CDers who are female-attracted.

You are welcome:) but note thqt i like women as well so i'd want to be cute for lesbian women as well.

[linda allen]

Most of us are pretty lucky in life even if we don't see it. We could have been born extremely poor, we could have been born into an oppresive country and government or religon, we could have been born into a jungle tribe, etc. If we were to throw the dice by being changed into a woman without conditions (and I think a lot of people forget about this), we run a lot of risks. Would anyone want to be a woman in a country or religon where women are treated as property? Would you want to be a woman in an abusive relationship? Would you still want to be a woman if you were dirt poor in some sub tropical country? How about if you were obese? Or had major health problems?

I didn't participate in the original post but if I had, my answer would have been "No". Women still don't get the respect men do in most situations.

Of course if I could trade my 70 year old self for a good looking, intelligent, wealthy 24 year old female, I would probably do it but not just to be a female. I would trade to be a good looking, intelligent, wealthy 24 year old male as well.

[bridget thronton]

I can see beauty in all women - i would be content to simply remove male gender clues as you suggest Reine (do not care about attracting males)

[biggirlsarah]

Being genetically male I am attracted to females, therefore if I were to be turned genetically female then logic would dictate that I would be attracted to males, so being young with a nice attractive shapely figure would definitely be an advantage.

[Rachel Morley]

I didn't post in the thread you mention but it seems to me that a CDer who is female-attracted would want to be changed into a cute attractive woman because if you get to choose what you look like then why would you not want to be cute and attractive? It seems to me that you'd want to be turned into something that you find attractive and like for yourself, rather than doing it for the purpose of attracting men. It's just the same as women who say they dress the way they do for themselves, not because of men. IMHO most CDers dress for themselves too and it's rarely got anything to do with attracting males.

[Lorileah]

I would like world peace, love and friendship for all, save the whales and ... a beach where creepy guys won't come and stare at me in my bikini.

I agree Reine I always like the caveats people add to their posts. Maybe the OP should have read "If you could be an average woman of attractiveness and health and intelligence...would you?" But that still does not address who they would be attracted to. Logically if the wish came true, they would be attracted to men just as the average women would be. However in out fairytale world, the switch would allow them to keep the things they want to keep (like being attracted to women, their high paying job, the ability to go fishing with the guy and stick their hand down the front of their shorts while watching football) AND be the last years Miss Universe who is lesbian

[ReineD]

To everyone, thank you for your answers! :)



You are welcome:) but note thqt i like women as well so i'd want to be cute for lesbian women as well.

... except that lesbians don't like their women to have that one extra thing that GGs don't have. That's why they're lesbian. :p

It's a pretty safe bet that the vast majority of the female-attracted CDers here are with hetero GGs, who are not sexually attracted to women, not even cute, curvy, or younger women.

[FelicityMay]

This is one of my biggest problems... Sure I would love to be a beautiful woman, but I think I would rather have a beautiful woman, which cant really both happen too well.

[Michelle (Oz)]

I do understand why CDers who have sex with men would want to be attractive to them. I was curious about the CDers who are female-attracted.

I have put considerable effort into weight loss and finding the right body shaping gear and clothes that allow me to present as a female in a way that appeals to me as a male. My ideal is my first wife's athletic body shape when in her twenties. Quite an ask for a 62 year old but I'm told I do well.

The question I think you are posing is why a male who is attracted to females wants to look and dress as a female in a way that attracts males. I like the image I portray and from comments at the casino last week on the night of a big local football match so do other men. (On reflection I shouldn't have worn a skirt that was 8 inches above my knee that night.)

Here's the rub though. I have absolutely no interest in being with a man and the attention I received was scary. Yet the mirror reflects my ideal female shape. Pity about the face though.

I can see why the confusion - it is all about whose perspective.

[Jocelyn Quivers]

That's actually ending up. My male side gets intimidated by women with bigger muscles than him.:D

[Barbra P]

Hi Reine

I didn’t respond to that thread but I’ll give you my take on your question; but keep in mind that this is coming from someone who’ll be turning 70 in a couple months so we are really in the hypothetical zone. I have discussed something like this with my Therapist, not instantly becoming female but what my desires would be if it were possible for me to transition. My thoughts were that if I was able to transition I would want it to be complete – HRT & SRS – and while I am currently heterosexual and have no desire to have any kind of relationship with a male I am quite sure that as a woman I would want to experience and enjoy having sex with men.

[Stephanie Miller]

Kind of a hard one. On one hand I think I would be O.K. in a female version of me - for myself. But I do understand that others, for the most part, judge you by your looks first. So of course I would want to be attractive for that reason. But then, I would not want someone that shallow as a partner. Then again, if I remained a female version of myself I would not want the person that was attracted to me then either. I would want someone with better taste. :idontknow:

[susan54]

As a heterosexual gender tourist (I do not apply the term transgender to myself) I present as a woman to the world a couple of times a month. I do it to look good to me and to women in women's clothes, looking as good as I can and acting as well as I can. In many years I have never attracted male attention nor would want to - I do not have to put any effort into avoiding it - possibly I am too old anyway. I absolutely love getting feedback on how I look (it is generally 80-90% favourable and the remainder takes the form of helpful suggestions) - and ALL of this comes from women. When I was out on Tuesday, dressed rather nicely IMHO, I got zero feedback and it took some pleasure out of the day, but I dealt mainly with young women I had not met before who were trying a bit too hard to act normal with the man in the dress (dress shops, nail salon, dressmaker, supermarket). The only male I interacted with was a barman, and usually these guys either act completely neutrally or (as in this case) try to deal with the guy dressed as a woman as quickly as possible.

I am lucky that I am slim with good legs so I can claim to look good in a skirt or dress - and yes - it needs a bust to look as good as it can. Women are nice enough to say they envy my legs and my figure (but mainly the legs). So I don't need to long to change into an attractive woman - I can just put on a nice outfit and get all I need from that - to a standard of appearance that is good enough for my purposes.

I can see why women ask this question, but it really is a non-issue - it might be different for younger cross-dressers, some of whom might even pass. In short, even the idea of attracting men does not enter my head.

[docrobbysherry]

I can only speak for myself, Reine. And, I don't even think of myself as a trans! So, I certainly can't speak for anyone that may feel they r TS.

I only dress because I CAN appear to be a young, attractive female at age 60+. If I found my image to be unattractive, as I once did when I first began dressing, I doubt I would have continued to dress. Nor, would I now.

Here's the part u MAY relate to. After spending 60+ years as a plain looking man, with no head turning features, I find being an attractive female very exciting! I mainly dress for myself. The more attractive Sherry appears, the more I enjoy my dressing experience.

I'm straight, so what about all the guys that r attracted to Sherry? My case may be a bit different than others because I don't attract many men when I'm out dressed. But, I get lots of attention online. I enjoy it when other men reaffirm that the images I create r pretty and sexy! And, if they become a nuisance I simply block them!

Don't EVER underestimate dresser's desire to have their fem looks validated!

[STACY B]

Exactly What I always thought Reine ,,, Tell me something ? If these people were attractive an could wear all the stuff they always dreamed of would they then be just like all the other girls that wear Mini Skirts an Super high heels an Real short shorts an skimpy little tops out in public an the LOOK at you like a Pervert when you look at them ? An have all the men after them an chasing them wanting something special from them ,, So why would you want to attract MEN an then just push them away ? Kind of a tease if you ask me ,,, Like jumping in the pool an Bitching about being Wet ?

[PaulaQ]

I'll be perfectly happy if I end up as an average looking woman. I don't intend to keep the one extra bit that lesbians aren't interested in. I never intended to trade on my looks. I expect I'll be a lesbian, but I have no illusions about great acceptance from the lesbian community - mostly they don't like us.

So I expect I'll be alone.

Hope this helps.

[Lucy_Bella]

Reine,

I didn't comment in the original thread .... My answer to your question ( mine only) would go like this.. If I was born and raised as a genetic female ( all are attractive) it would have been reversed...I would secretly dress up as an ugly boy..Just my luck:devil:

[linda allen]

................ I am currently heterosexual and have no desire to have any kind of relationship with a male I am quite sure that as a woman I would want to experience and enjoy having sex with men.

I can understand that. If I had female parts I would want to use them as they were intended to be used. On the other hand, if lightning hit me and I was suddenly turned into a woman with female parts, I would stay faithfull to my wife and forego the experience.

[ReineD]

Thanks again for all your replies!

Several of you have said that your desire to be sexy comes from your male libido ... the male part of yourselves that is attracted to beautiful women. So you're really dressing to appeal to yourselves sexually? This is what is so confusing to me and I gather to a lot of GGs. Most of us don't dress to appeal sexually to ourselves. When we dress as attractively or sexily (is this a word?) as possible, it is to appeal to the object of our love interests which is generally a man (for hetero GGs). We do like to look nice for ourselves but that's just good grooming, which is an entirely different look than an attempt to look as sexually enticing or as hot as possible.

So because we do try to entice men when we dress in a certain way (as opposed to trying to entice ourselves), we do frequently wonder if you dress or want to look enticing for the same reasons that we do. This is why so many wives wonder if their husbands dress for other men.

It really is about the love of oneself as a woman isn't it ... even if it doesn't culminate in sexual release?



... would they then be just like all the other girls that wear Mini Skirts an Super high heels an Real short shorts an skimpy little tops out in public an the LOOK at you like a Pervert when you look at them ? An have all the men after them an chasing them wanting something special from them ,, So why would you want to attract MEN an then just push them away ?

Stacy, honestly I don't know any women like that except in the movies or perhaps some of the very young, immature college girls. I'm afraid that you're describing a stereotype. Just think of all the women who live on your street, and all your female family members. What percentage of these women fit the mold of outright teasers you've just described?

[docrobbysherry]

Thanks again for all your replies!

Several of you have said that your desire to be sexy comes from your male libido ... the male part of yourselves that is attracted to beautiful women. So you're really dressing to appeal to yourselves sexually? This is what is so confusing to me and I gather to a lot of GGs. Most of us don't dress to appeal sexually to ourselves. When we dress as attractively or sexily (is this a word?) as possible, it is to appeal to the object of our love interests which is generally a man (for hetero GGs). We do like to look nice for ourselves but that's just good grooming, which is an entirely different look than an attempt to look as sexually enticing or as hot as possible.

So because we do try to entice men when we dress in a certain way (as opposed to trying to entice ourselves), we do frequently wonder if you dress or want to look enticing for the same reasons that we do. This is why so many wives wonder if their husbands dress for other men.-----------------

You've in effect, answered your own question, Reine! Most of us r straight and r attracted to beautiful women. So, if we r able to create a look that attracts us, why wouldn't we?

Most of us ARE trying attract a man when we try to look hot. Unlike straight females, tho, that man is only OURSELVES!

[Barbara Dugan]

Interesting question, when I dress is mostly to be attractive to guys, I usually put my best effort and most of the time the results show and definitively not for me because I am not attracted to any female and to be honest
lately I've been feeling inadequate as a transvestite and that feeling is blocking my relationship with guys as a result I've been sexless for a long time and that kind of feeling trigger the desire to be a whole female and not necessarily an attractive one.

[Cheryl T]

Good question Reine. I'm certainly not adverse to just being me and that would include being my "sister" rather than some model were I given the chance. Vanity dictates that we would prefer to be attractive and so on, but for me that would not be a deal breaker.
As a matter of fact, I dressed for one Halloween years ago and my wife and I went to visit my parents. We brought pictures from that night and my mom didn't recognize me. When we told her it was me she said to my father, "want to see what your daughter would have looked like if we had had one?".
That made me happy, one that I went unrecognized and two that she thought her daughter would have looked like me...she seemed "proud" if I can say that.

Actually, I'm happy with the way I look. I'm at ease with my height and weight. My only desire would be to have my own hair as nature has seen to it that that won't ever happen now. It would just be so nice not to "have" to wear a wig, but to have the option to if I so desired.

[kellycan27]

I agree with Sherry .. I think it's a matter of emulating that which they themselves see as sexy or appealing in a woman.

[Eryn]

I'm not attracted to men and I'm nowhere near young and cute so I guess the answer is that I prefer female modes of expression. It might well be "grass is greener" syndrome, but it is certainly an adventure finding out!

If I had a magic wand and was willing to give up all that I have experienced in life (which I certainly am not) I'd go whole hog, including giving myself an appreciation for men. At that point the question would be moot as I'd be a GG with no memories of a male past.

[Lorileah]

So because we do try to entice men when we dress in a certain way (as opposed to trying to entice ourselves), we do frequently wonder if you dress or want to look enticing for the same reasons that we do.

Yes...to entice men...and women...and whatever gender :)

[Jenni Yumiko]

Most of us are pretty lucky in life even if we don't see it. We could have been born extremely poor, we could have been born into an oppresive country and government or religon, we could have been born into a jungle tribe, etc.
Off topic but I really really like this statement. We take a lot for granted and things could always be worse.

I still wouldn't change I like who I am and who I can be for an hour or two sometimes.

[STACY B]

I meant the ones That Do Look at you Crazy ,,lol,, Not all of them in general ,, Just the certain ones that look at a Man in disgust when they are Looking at them really hard for what they are wearing ,,,,

[sandra-leigh]

Remember the genie / magic wish stories you read in your youth? Not in all of them, but in many of them, the magic wish came with a catch, or the wish was deliberately interpreted so that everything asked for was provided but something nasty that was overlooked was given at the same time. For example, "I wish to have the body of a 20 year old!" might get you the body of a 20 year old who has a bad case of cystic fibrosis. And sometimes the way it works in the stories is that the greedier you are in the wish, the less likely the result is to be favorable to you.

From time to time I muse over what I would wish for, how I would phrase things to get my desires and avoid the negatives -- and muse over what I would ask for in order to avoid the "too greedy" penalties.

What I find that I have arrived at as my starting point for elaboration, the base to put polishing touches upon, comes down to "female and reasonably healthy". After that I waffle a bit, about whether I would next specify "at least as intelligent as I am now", or next specify something about attractiveness.

As it would be a wish, Yes, I would specify an attractiveness beyond my male level, but not from vanity but from loneliness: if even only 1 in 100 thought I was attractive enough to flirt gently with, that would be way more than now.

[Kimberly Kael]

I was curious about the CDers who are female-attracted.

My reasons back when I did think of myself as a cross-dresser weren't always that clear, but it wasn't about attracting anyone else. It was (and still is following my transition) about self confidence and pride. That may have something to do with what I find attractive in the first place, which is a woman who is confident, pleasant, and takes good care of herself and her appearance. Someone who doesn't need constant reassurance, who brings a spark of her own to a conversation or a relationship, is someone I enjoy being around. Why wouldn't I want to be that woman?

[Beth-Lock]

Here's a thought. Men's idea of sex/romance is wrapped up, primarily in appearance, while women's in the relationship. Men think first of appearance, and let the relationship factor fall into line.

[susan54]

There is one important aspect missing from this thread. Recent UK press articles claimed that women spent more time getting ready for a night out with the girls than a date. So why can't men who dress up be more interested in impressing women than another man? I cannot be alone in having zero zilch interest in attracting men. If I did (most unlikely|), I would very quickly devise an escape route. If I attracted a lesbian, on the other hand (probably equally unlikely) ....

[prene]

OK
To me I would not have to be pretty. I would want to be attractive to the attractive GG I would be with.

[Sister Rachel]

"Most of us are pretty lucky in life even if we don't see it. We could have been born extremely poor, we could have been born into an oppresive country and government or religon, we could have been born into a jungle tribe, etc. If we were to throw the dice by being changed into a woman without conditions (and I think a lot of people forget about this), we run a lot of risks. Would anyone want to be a woman in a country or religon where women are treated as property? Would you want to be a woman in an abusive relationship? Would you still want to be a woman if you were dirt poor in some sub tropical country? How about if you were obese? Or had major health problems?"

Absolutely spot-on, linda! Put many things I have wanted to say in this forum very articulately into a nutshell! :)

[punkypunk]

Hi,
I have a gorgeous wife, am transitioning and only attracted to females. The answer to your question, for me at least, is simple. I was a good looking guy, poss due to fem tendencies have always been kinda vain, so it's natural to wanna still be so. My wife's hot as, she married a hot guy, even though she is cool n wouldn't b so vain hrself I also wanna stay on the attractive team for her. It's a contentious issue but seems easily justified I think.

[Emma500]

Because if I was a young and attractive woman, I would want to experience everything that a young woman would experience. And that would most definitely include sex with a man.

[Taylor186]

Reine, attractive people have it better in just about every way don't they?

"According to Dr. Gordon Patzer, who has concluded 3 decades of research on physical attractiveness, human beings are hard-wired to respond more favorably to attractive people: “Good-looking men and women are generally regarded to be more talented, kind, honest and intelligent than their less attractive counterparts.”" http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/wired-success/201208/im-successful-because-im-beautiful-how-we-discriminate-in-favor-attractive

In our largely patriarchal society women start out disadvantaged over their male counterpart. Being attractive would help restore balance.

[ReineD]

Thanks again, everyone, for all the great responses!

Taylor, I agree that both men and women want to be attractive, confident, and well-groomed. I was rather asking what makes a CDer want to go one step further, which is "hot", especially the female-attracted CDers whose GG SOs don't respond to the "hotness" of women.

[Taylor186]

My question is, assuming that most of you are female-attracted, why would you like to embody someone whom males are specifically attracted to? Why not simply remove your male gender cues and be like an identical sister would be?

Sorry, I don't see any reference to "hot" in your original post nor do I see any reference to a current GG SO's feelings. What I see you asking is "why be attractive, why not just be a female looking version of your male self, attractive or not?"

My answer above addressed why as a woman (or man for that matter) attractive is better.

[Angela Campbell]

Ok I would rather be an ugly woman than an attractive man. I would much rather be an attractive woman than an ugly woman. What other women are attracted to I cannot help so I will live with the realities.

[ReineD]

Taylor, synonyms. To embody someone whom males are specifically attracted to, means 'hot' to me. Or sexy. I had in mind the Victorias Secret Models, who I gather are universally appealing to men:

http://www.victoriassecret.com/clothing/all-sale-and-specials/off-the-shoulder-dress?ProductID=90567&CatalogueType=OLS

... as opposed to being just a regular, attractive woman going about her business:
http://frothygirlz.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/average-woman.jpg

[Angela Campbell]

I prefer the second one you listed .....

[ReineD]

So do I, Ellen ... but that's because we are likely the same age. :)

It's just that in the other thread, many of the CDers said they would want to be a woman only if they could be young and I gather, sexy. :p

[ossian]

In relation to the original question #1, removing the male machinery does not make a man a woman. We never had the experience of being a baby transforming into a girl Into to a woman. The genetic dice unfolded a different story for us. I have this hunch,and I might be wrong, that MTF CD/TG people are a third gender. Neither a 100% man or woman will ever never know what it is like to be us. I'm happy with this mixed up mess in me without modifying my body.

What I hope is that I get accepted as this in between person that I am.

[MysticLady]

AND be the last years Miss Universe who is lesbian

I could possibly live with this choice........:heehee:



... except that lesbians don't like their women to have that one extra thing that GGs don't have. That's why they're lesbian. :p


Well, I guess we're....male lesbians? A rarity which would make GG's who admire them even more rare:sad:


Reine, attractive people have it better in just about every way don't they?

[I]"According to Dr. Gordon Patzer, who has concluded 3 decades of research on physical attractiveness, human beings are hard-wired to respond more favorably to attractive people: “Good-looking men and women are generally regarded to be more talented, kind, honest and intelligent than their less attractive counterparts.”.

I totally disagree and plus that's not very nice for someone to even say that. They call this person a Doctor?:eek:

[sandra-leigh]

I was rather asking what makes a CDer want to go one step further, which is "hot", especially the female-attracted CDers whose GG SOs don't respond to the "hotness" of women.

Remember the "Lipstick Lesbians" (also known as Femmes), a quite traditional part of Lesbian culture. It has been common in culture to say that their opposites are the Dykes (thought to be a shortening of "bulldyker", also known as Butch), and that still broadly holds, but certainly there are Femme/Femme relationships as well. I have personally witnessed a mix of Butch and Femme go gooey when there is a "hot" Femme nearby. No, not all lesbians: some of the Femme just don't find other Femme attractive That Way and really like Butch instead. All kinds of combinations.


I prefer the second one you listed .....

I would not have any idea how to be the first one, the model. I would probably get extremely uptight and half-paranoid if I was magic-wanded into a body like that. The second, though, looks fine to me; I could relax and live my life. (Oh, I might ask for the cheekbones to be a small bit less apple-ish, if it's not too much trouble.)



I totally disagree and plus that's not very nice for someone to even say that. They call this person a Doctor?:eek:

It does not matter whether you agree or not, there have been multiple studies that indeed show what was quoted is how (statistically) people react. Studies, for example, in which people are shown pictures of people (just pictures!) and asked to rate the pictured person's honesty and attractiveness: the ones rated more attractive end up also having notably higher honesty ratings. Even though absolutely nothing about personality was revealed. In some of the tests, the actual people in the pictures do not exist and are computer generated to vary parameters such as the pupil distance or the face shape; the constructed images that get statistically rated most attractive also get statistically rated more honest.

There is some genetic basis for some judgements based on appearance. The kinds of features that people tend to judge as being detracting mostly have to do with visible asymmetries, or features at the "wrong" angles, or deformities. Those conditions are all associated with significant illnesses or weak genetics -- the kind of things that do not make for good breeding (opposite sex), and might indicate contagion (either sex.) A healthy-looking person is, all other things being equal, "safer" to be around or be attracted to, so our brain biases interactions with people based on appearance.

[jessicapaige]

I'd be happy for a lateral move... average 100 ratings on my current self, then be the female equivalent. Seems fair in a perfect world :)

[noeleena]

Hi.

Would most answer from a male perpective in being a woman or like a woman to emulate one & even be so like in looks that no one would know you had resembled a male in the first place, & take on the responceabilitys as a woman , there is far more to being a woman than just the glamour that is talked about here,

Its allways nice to say oh being a women is so much fun & getting all dolled up for an evening out & so on i get the impression that it has to do with being / feelng sexy haveing men ...wonting you...

if your not attrative your over looked or ignoreed. not even given a second look . i was allmost going to say all of this line applys to myself. or the ? i should ask is how do men see me. & not in a derogertoy kind of way, or what they could get from me.

So Appearance is what some of this is about other than the sexual side of it .

Jos * i have a photo book of many people from all round the world , now would this woman be acceptable we think aged 70 odd nothing to look at say like a younger woman yet i would love to have met her so many lines all over her face missing teeth yet she's just so lovely so beautyfull so so lovely , would she be looked at a second time i dought it yet her beauty is what Jos & i see in her. most men only wont to see the outer looks yet is that all there is to a woman ,??

I think in many way's im glad i dont have what men wont they can write me off as weird a no looker, or who the hell is that, or... IT... if it comes down to it.

So being that woman is very different from those wonting to be a woman who has that ...look...

so Dr Gorden Patzer may have it right then i dont count. oh well maybe i knew that 55 years ago. except i had to live it, Hmmm .......

...noeleena...

[susan54]

If Reine D asked if I wanted to look 'hot' the answer would be no. Attractive is a more general term that has a use well beyond its literal one. Many women dress to look attractive rather than to attract men, and many women regard being pestered by men as a pain in the aspect ratio. Married women who have no interest in attracting other men, dress to look good. Looking good is an objective in itself, but it nice if those you encounter give you positive feedback on how good you look. The feedback can be from either gender, but in my case, almost all my encounters are with women.

[kathyw]

ill take what ever god could give me and make it work

[docrobbysherry]

Taylor, synonyms. To embody someone whom males are specifically attracted to, means 'hot' to me. Or sexy. I had in mind the Victorias Secret Models, who I gather are universally appealing to men:

http://www.victoriassecret.com/clothing/all-sale-and-specials/off-the-shoulder-dress?ProductID=90567&CatalogueType=OLS

... as opposed to being just a regular, attractive woman going about her business:
http://frothygirlz.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/average-woman.jpg

As a man, I concur completely with your definition of "hot", Reine.

I often try to create looks which r fem but r rather plain and more for blending. Nice maybe, but NOT hot!

"Hot" means exciting! A look that gets your blood rushing!

[ReineD]

Remember the "Lipstick Lesbians" (also known as Femmes), a quite traditional part of Lesbian culture. It has been common in culture to say that their opposites are the Dykes (thought to be a shortening of "bulldyker", also known as Butch), and that still broadly holds, but certainly there are Femme/Femme relationships as well. I have personally witnessed a mix of Butch and Femme go gooey when there is a "hot" Femme nearby. No, not all lesbians: some of the Femme just don't find other Femme attractive That Way and really like Butch instead. All kinds of combinations.

I hear what you're saying but the lipstick vs. butch lesbian analogy does not apply. In the other thread, the CDers who wanted to be a women only if they could be a sexually attractive woman are not in relationships with lesbian women. Or if they are not married, they have a history of having been with hetero women, since lesbians really do not like to be in relationships with men or anyone who has a penis, including genetic men who present as women.


If Reine D asked if I wanted to look 'hot' the answer would be no.

No, I was asking why CDers would want to be 'hot' (or sexually attractive) if they are or want to be in relationships with GGs who are not turned on by 'hot' (or not hot) women. Maybe they want to be in relationships with lesbians instead, but by definition lesbians do not like people who have penises, so this is a pipe dream.

I think I have my answer though. The hetero CDers would want to be hot because the hotness appeals to their male libidos, and not because they want to attract men. So it is a form of attraction to the self as a hot woman? The perplexing thing to me is why CDers who are in relationships with GGs who are NOT turned on (or rather turned off) by 'hot' and 'not hot' women, would prefer to appeal to themselves rather than to the GGs they are or want to be with? Remember that my question was directed to the female-attracted CDers.

... unless the majority of the CDers who answered this way are single or they were not thinking about their relationships with their wives/girlfriends when they answered the question?

[jenni_xx]

I don't understand this thread. Ask anyone if they could transform into another person, be that person male or female, and the majority would choose a person who is considered attractive. Of course, attractiveness is all said and done subjective, so the person who they would transform into would be attractive in the sense that they themselves valued attractiveness.

Another poster (sorry, without scrolling back through the thread I can't remember who) said it best. To paraphrase - they would prefer to be an ugly woman than a man, but then would prefer to be an attractive woman than an ugly woman.

Does such a comment appeal to that poster's "male libido"? I don't think so. I think it just appeals to the universal idea that being attractive is a good thing. Especially for your own self-esteem. Does it mean that men who cross-dress to desire (or have a fantasy) to be an attractive female want to attract men? Again I don't think so.

You directed your question to straight cders. To a group who from our awareness of this website all want to look as good (as females) as they possibly can. In this respect, your question can be asked in regards to the majority without the need for including the "parameter" of what kind of woman you would want to be if you could magically/instantly change sex. Is there a single CD (straight), who dresses in order to attract a female? I would say no. They dress because it's an innate compulsion, and the baggage that comes with that - male attention, ridicule, being outcast is a potential/possible outcome of that. In short, at our very core we dress for ourselves, in order to feel good about ourselves. If others accept us, then that is merely a bonus.

[ReineD]

Jenni, if you read through all the posts in the other thread, you'll see there are many hetero CDers who would only like to be women if they were specifically sexually attractive. And since the majority of people on this planet are hetero, a sexually attractive woman appeals to men and not to other women. So I was initially puzzled by the idea that a hetero CDer would want to be attractive to men if s/he is attracted to women. I got some answers and as stated in my previous post, I think it is a wish to be sexually appealing to the self (for those hetero CDers who want to be sexually appealing). So now I am puzzled as to why hetero CDers would rather be appealing to themselves than to the GGs in their lives. The answer that lesbians are attracted to attractive women doesn't fly, since we are talking here for the most part about female-attracted CDers who are or want to be in relationships with male-attracted GGs (since lesbians are not attracted to people who have penises).

I agree though, we all want to be attractive to others in a non-sexual way, in the sense that no one wants to be ugly. I was just going several steps deeper than this.

[MysticLady]

I agree though, we all want to be attractive to others in a non-sexual way, in the sense that no one wants to be ugly. I was just going several steps deeper than this.

Reine, you know the deeper you get the darker and more mysterious it becomes. Sometimes it's safer(mind wise) to remain more sane accepting something's as a child would. It is what it is. IMO

[jenni_xx]

Reine - I haven't read though the all the posts in the other thread, nor have I replied to it. But I'm not surprised to hear that a lot of hetero CDers would only ever want to be an attractive female. This is where my comment in my previous post kicks in - that being attractiveness is subjective. In short, they would want to be a female who they themselves would deem attractive. In the realms of fantasy, which that thread clearly is (I say that even though I haven't read it), who would ever wish to be someone unattractive - even to themselves - as their fantasy? Looking at it from that perspective and it isn't necessary to delve deeper.

Having said that, I respect and admire your intent to do so. But I do feel that your question can be asked (and has as much validation) if we take this particular fantasy aspect away. That is, simply ask CDers why they cross-dress to begin with. Again, referring to my previous post, is there a single CDer who dresses in order to attract a female? Or do they dress in the hope that they can present themselves as female as best they can? The better a CDer looks (as female), the better the CDer will feel about themselves. And the more attention they are likely to get. Does this attention drive their compulsion to cross-dress? I would say, emphatically, that it doesn't. I would say that first and foremost it is a compulsion, and what we seek in others is acceptance over and above attraction. Attraction, unwanted or not, is merely a by-product.

So it's in that sense that the other thread can and should be addressed. In my opinion.

In regards to you being puzzled as to why hetero CDers would rather be appealing to themselves than the GG's in their lives, I believe the best way to approach this is to understand that we cross-dress FOR ourselves, first and foremost. Hetero CDers will not dress in feminine attire to attract a female. And when they dress in front of their partners, they are not asking for their partners to find them attractive, but rather to accept them. In this sense a distinction needs to be made. A distinction which is all too apparent on this forum (namely by the fact that the vast majority, if not all, have a female name, refer to each other as "girls", "ladies", "women". Yet the majority who do this are straight and only attracted to women. So the word "appeal" here takes on a dual meaning - appeal in a sexual sense, or appeal in an acceptance sense. In this sense a different identity is being created. And in doing so a distinction between our birth-gender and a desire to present ourselves as the opposite gender becomes the goal.

[sandra-leigh]

Real-life transition is difficult, expensive, painful, and stressful (including a hard period of being part-way transitioned.) "If you could take a pill", or "magic-wand" or "pixie-dust" transitions, on the other hand, are the fantasy of sudden and easy and nearly painless and low-stress transition; the 'magic' transitions to "hot looking" especially have a distinct undertone of people accepting you as "really" being the new gender because the new body is "obviously" female. I suspect people's answers would be somewhat different if the proposal had been that they would come out looking "hot" after 50 operations over a 7 year period.

Secondly, it appears to me that a number of the MTF answering do not presently feel that they are already internally 100% female gender identity, and might not even feel at present that they are "more than half female" -- but they feel (or have the fantasy) that they would like to be female -- and to feel that they are female. If you were to give them female bodies but leave their present gender identity as-is, they might not care much for the result.

I know that in my personal case, I (usually) feel "no longer male", but I am keenly aware of the gap between that and feeling "female" and I don't know that transitioning my physical body more than I have would leave me any better off... but if the Pink Pill would cure that dysphoria along with changing my body, then from a "selfish" perspective, Heck Yes, and from a relationship perspective... the relationship as it stands would be lost, but my SO would understand that I needed to do it.

Thirdly, the feeling of gender dysphoria is a big strain to live with. If the Magic Pill offered to cure the dysphoria but did not promise a female body (maybe not any body change), then that in itself would be incredibly valuable to many of us. Still, in thinking about taking such a pill, one is led to the question of "What kind of life would you like to lead" -- and when I think about ending up "male", I (speaking for myself here!) feel a ball of unease and unpleasantness in the pit of my stomach. The kind of life I would like to lead is more closely associated with traditional female attributes. About the only traditionally male attributes I value are my relatively analytic mind, and my decent (but not "strong") "mapping" / navigation / sense-of-direction (I don't like feeling lost.) Would I choose the other kind of life mostly on the grounds that doing so might make my SO happier? I don't think so: that would be too much like wanting to be a different person, to not-exist. I have given up so much for the sake of others already in my life: don't make me give up more core.

[ReineD]

Jenni, thanks so much for your response. You addressed my questions at the deeper level. I've read your post twice and after having been here for years and despite understanding and accepting a great deal about the CDing, there are some aspects that still elude me.

I will need to read your post several times to digest it. Thank you once again! :)


Edit - And thank you too, Sandra, and truly, everyone else who responded. :hugs:

[jenni_xx]

Reine

And thank you for asking your questions. For in thinking about such questions and attempting to answer them, it can result in a better understanding for myself in regards to myself. I've cross-dressed pretty much all my life (my first time was when I was 5 years old when my sister and my two female cousins dressed me up (even though I protested, more out of convention than compulsion, something happened in me that day - a realisation as to who I was which I know will stay with me until my dying day)). Yet despite being a CDer, I realise that what it means and represents varies from person to person. Of course there are similarities that we can all relate to, but in regards to a complete understanding of it, I will never achieve that.

It's why I admire your question and you yourself so much. For it is, at its very essence, intent on understanding more about the reasons and needs for men who crossdress. I thank you for that. And such threads are the reason why I keep coming back to this site, even if I don't post very often. The mixture of reading threads which are serious in their intent and reading threads as trivial such as "how girly is your phone cover" is a welcome mix. One asks us to address who we are, the other allows us respite and just enjoy who we are.

Perhaps I'm not best placed to answer your questions in this thread because I'm gay, but I hope you don't mind me butting in and engaging in your questions nonetheless. You have asked questions which I can relate to, and questions that are deserving of many responses, and it's only through getting a variety of responses that can truly result in understanding the topic at hand. So, I thank you Reine for asking such questions.

[Badtranny]

I was just going several steps deeper than this.

Wrong forum for earnest introspection. These are people who come here to fantasize and socialize. Very few have given any thought to the emotional politics of their discussions.

[jenni_xx]

Very few have given any thought to the emotional politics of their discussions.

How do you know that?

[DebbieL]

To everyone, thank you for your answers! :)

... except that lesbians don't like their women to have that one extra thing that GGs don't have. That's why they're lesbian. :p

It's a pretty safe bet that the vast majority of the female-attracted CDers here are with hetero GGs, who are not sexually attracted to women, not even cute, curvy, or younger women.

Most of my sexual relationships, once I came out, were with bisexual women. These women liked that I could provide the security and resources of a man, and at the same time had the sensitivity and sensuality of a woman. There are radical differences in how men make love to women and how women make love to women. In my case, I was never very well endowed, and if I counted on what was between my legs to please a woman, we would both be disappointed. Learning to use my mouth, hands, body, and toys to please my partner was natural, and an important part of my life. I was talking to my wife this morning and we realized that he hadn't had intercourse since 2004, and before that with my previous partner it was around 1998. Even in 2004 it was awkward and a bit difficult.

On the other hand, with the right toys, I can please my partner and she can please me and we can have a really enjoyable sex life together.

My wife has helped me get better at "blending". The trick here is to look feminine, but not overly sexy or beautiful. I look and dress appropriate to my actual age. I'm 57 years old and with make-up and such I look like late 40s or early 50s. I can pass through the airport as a "Miss" or "Ma'am" without even trying. I've grown my own hair longer and I fill a B-cup when I wear a bra. If I wear a feminine blouse, shorts, and women's tennis shoes, I get treated like an older woman. Men hold doors for me, waiters and service people use the feminine pronouns. At the same time, I don't have guys fondling me in public places like I did when I was in my "foxy" 30s looking like I was still in my late 20s, wearing short skirts, hose, and heels.

The fact is that I have a hard time passing as male these days, which is OK by me.

As for WHY I'd want to transition, it's hard to explain unless you have experienced both the male and female worlds. The male world is a constant power struggle, a struggle for domination that starts when we are toddlers. Watch two year old boys play and they will push each other and fight over toys, but a "pecking order" is gradually established. This is common in many mammals that congregate in large groups such as wolves, or even monkeys and apes. As men get older, the struggle shifts from physical competitions such as fist-fighting to competitive sports and athletics, then to intellectual competition and eventually competition in the work-place. Alpha males try to assert their authority in "Top Down" mode, delegating to subordinates, who delegate to their subordinates, who obediently carry out orders without question or argument. This is most common in the Military.

In the female world, there is a sense of cooperation and collaboration. The goal is to remain a part of the group, to be accepted. The worse thing a woman can do to another woman is betrayal, especially a betrayal which results in the betrayed woman being excluded from the group or the pack. Women work and win by cooperating with each other, collaborating with each other. As gatherers, they would try to help each other find the freshest berries and fruits, an modern culture it includes things like the best sales and bargains. In the work-place women are often more effective in collaborative situations, encouraging each member of the team to contribute their knowledge, abilities, and skills to the project with affirmation of each person's contribution. There is more desire to seek consensus and leaders are often those who gain the most support from their subordinates rather than those who are the most dominant. As girls grow up, they are encouraged to engage in nurturing activities, such as playing with dolls. They are encouraged to take dance, music, and art programs, where each girl is encouraged to do their best and stay in sync with the rest of the group. There are competitions for "star" roles, but even then there are opportunities for lots of leaders to showcase their advanced skills and strategies - as part of the team effort. The soloist who is backed by the choir, the prima ballerina backed by the chorus, or the cheerleaders at the top of the pyramid who are supported by the base.

This isn't to say that there aren't exceptions to the rules on either side. There are alpha women who try to bully others into doing it their way, or suffer the consequences, and there are beta men who are effective collaborators and team players. In many cases, these people are overtly or covertly transgender. I've known many FtM transgender women who dressed more masculine, were heavier and more muscular, and were willing to fight when they or theirs were threatened in any way. Conversely, I've observed how many femme men are very effective and organizing groups and getting people involved, without being forceful leaders.

There are many other gender role strategies that are radically different between men and women, and there are always exceptions, based on situation, exceptional personalities, and environment. Most people just accept their own gender role and consider it a part of their lives, it's just how things are. The transgender person seems to have the ability to perceive the differences in gender roles, then adopt, adapt, and accept the opposite gender roles and tend to reject their own gender roles. For some, such as cross-dressers, this might only be in specific areas of their lives. For others, such as transsexuals, they learn to adopt the gender roles and strategies of the opposite gender at a very young age, and it is when they are forced into gender conformity that they begin to suffer.

If you are a GG, and you loved playing with your girl friends, giggling together, crying together, sharing toys, sharing clothes, sharing your lives together. You learned to enjoy touching each other, hugging each other, and playing with each other's hair, nails, and make-up. Now imagine being thrust into a world where giggling or crying would result in an immediate attack by 10-20 boys who would beat you physically, hitting you, kicking you, and hurting you. They might use their fists and feet, or they might use rocks and clubs. Imagine being thrust into a world where touching any other person could also result in a physical assault of this type. Imagine that any attempt and deviating from the "uniform" of the group, whatever form that might take, would make you a target for physical assault. Hair too long, you get beat up. Fingernails to long, you get beat up. Clothes too nice, you get beat up. Clothes to ratty, you get beat up. Imagine a world where expressing emotions, happy, sad, crying with sadness or crying for joy, would result in being physically attacked. Even acting to excited about a girl could result in her being "taken" from you by an "alpha" male.

This is how the MtF transsexual experiences the male world. The have been forced out of a world of nurturing and support, into a world of violence, and they are often the target of that violence.

The FtM experiences just the opposite. Often, the FtM transsexual starts out experiencing the world as a "boy" or "tom-boy", often with brothers and other male play-mates. She learns to fight for what she wants, to compete with boys, and she learns that she will only be accepted by the boys if she wins the fights, or at least puts up a good fight. She may excel at competitive sports, and is often a star player on the boys team because she plays to rough to play with the girls. At some point she is forced into a feminine world where her violence and alpha nature is considered disruptive. Often adults will try to force her to be more "lady-like". The girls will exclude her from the group, making her feel even more isolated.

Many transsexuals eventually adopt the strategy of living in "stealth mode", attempting to look and act like others of their gender, and internally hating themselves for doing it. They are afraid to tell ANYONE how they really feel. They can't tell their parents, who may have helped force them into gender conformity. They can't tell their peers, who would thrust them back into isolation and persecution. Even though they are older, they often fear the same level and intensity of persecution and isolation they experienced as children. The fear, even terror is so real, that they can't even tell their most trusted friends, their lovers, or even their own spouses.

Inside, every moment they live in gender conformity is a moment of active and covert lying. I have often said it's a bit like being a Jewish girl in Nazi Europe. If they continue to live, dress, and act like Jews, they will be persecuted, tortured, and eventually killed. On the other hand, if they bleach their hair blonde, eat pork, beef and cheese, whipped creme, and all of the other "unkosher" foods, literally denying their very identity as Jews, they have the chance of survival, at least for one more day. Yet they always live in the terror that someone will recognize them for what they are. They will somehow give themselves away, with a gesture, a word, a Yiddish phrase, even the songs she learned as a child must never be sung.

So it is with the transgender. Even the FtM transgender struggles. She can wear pants, cut her hair short, and even beef up, but she knows that she must suffer the consequences and isolation if she expresses too much of her "masculine" side. If she is too aggressive and forceful, she gets labeled a "bitch" even though she is behaving no different than the "alpha males" in the same organization.

I know this is hard to understand, and it's hard to explain. There are many good books on gender roles and gender identities. The book "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" attempted to try and capture just a few of the differences, but this was the tip of the iceberg. To those who are happy in their own gender roles, it's almost as difficult to conceive as the concept of water to a fish. If you take the fish out of the water for a few minutes, it might appreciate the concept of "no water" compared to "in water", and have some appreciation of being back in the water.

Because transgenders have this remarkable perspective on even the most basic "axioms" of our life and culture, they often grow up questioning and trying to understand everything around them, wanting to understand WHY they are the way they are, WHY others are the way they are, and WHY the world is how it is. They want to know WHY things work the way they do. This makes them outstanding in the world of technology, science, research, and even "soft" sciences like sociology, anthropology, and psychology. It also makes them more open to the ideas of others who question the status quo. When you study the development of breakthrough technologies, ranging from outer space technology to computers to the Internet, you often find that a substantial portion of the true innovators, those who originally conceived, developed, and championed new breakthrough technologies - were also transgendered, GLBT, or confronting other challenges, having to struggle to do things that most people take for granted.

[MysticLady]

Wrong forum for earnest introspection. These are people who come here to fantasize and socialize. Very few have given any thought to the emotional politics of their discussions.

Hello Melissa, this is a very interesting thought, can you elaborate on this a little for me as to why you would think this.

[Taylor186]

Jenni, if you read through all the posts in the other thread, you'll see there are many hetero CDers who would only like to be women if they were specifically sexually attractive.

OK Reine you have compelled me to read the other thread, which I previously ignored because it seem like a fantasy thread. And I read all 7 pages of posts.

What did I find? Well, many did say yes, unqualified, absolutely. But, many said no, no way, never. And, many said only if they could change back and forth.

A few said only if it didn't disrupt their family. A few qualified it to say only if they could go back in time (pre family). And yes, a few said only if they were more attractive. But no one, that I remember, said anything about being more "sexually" attractive, to either sex.

So I ask you: why are you reading "sexuality" and partner issues into all those varied answers (as one might reasonably expect here at cd.com)? After all as others mentioned above it was a fantasy question that was being addressed.

(And, as I post this I want you to know that your wisdom is one of the main reason I spend any time here at all. You are my definition of attractive.)

[ReineD]

So I ask you: why are you reading "sexuality" and partner issues into all those varied answers (as one might reasonably expect here at cd.com)? After all as others mentioned above it was a fantasy question that was being addressed.

I also posted in the other thread that I thought many of the answers were rooted in fantasy, but internally I wondered if they weren't serious wishes.

I realize there were many respondents who didn't bring sexuality into it. And a full 40% (I counted, lol) would not want to change at all. I don't want to target anyone, but these are just the first few things I read that indicated that some respondents would want to be sexually attractive rather than just nice-looking:

"Can I specify proportions?"
"would love for my body to feel the urges of a women, and be able to also feel the urges of a man"
"I'd love being Beyoncé, but Angela Merkel? No thanks!"
"Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes"
"Or maybe turn into a really good looking and built nice *******"
"only if I were young and beautiful"
"as long as I can pick my body and looks"

I've also read in this forum, time and time again, that having a nice body (men, not women, tend to be attracted to nice bodies) is important to many of the members and over time, many members have said (and they also have dressed like) they want to be sexy. You can see this in the choice of clothing, the poses, etc. The explanation in this thread that many CDers emulate the ideal that their male selves are attracted to makes sense to me, even though I still need to read through Jenni's post to digest why it is important to be attractive to themselves more than to their hetero GG partners.

I'll read through all the responses in this thread again tomorrow. There's a lot of good stuff here! :)

[Lucy_Bella]

I've also read in this forum, time and time again, that having a nice body (men, not women, tend to be attracted to nice bodies) is important to many of the members and over time, many members have said (and they also have dressed like) they want to be sexy. You can see this in the choice of clothing, the poses, etc. The explanation in this thread that many CDers emulate the ideal that their male selves are attracted to makes sense to me, even though I still need to read through Jenni's post to digest why it is important to be attractive to themselves more than to their hetero GG partners.



Reine.
That's so easy to answer. Some of us are ........Perverts ..lol... I'm even offended I said that ...But yes to be blunt we are still guys and the attraction verses the inner desire ( emulate verse's feel or both even) Emulate ..Having that girl you always wanted ( that girl being how we emulate our appearance tho we fail miserably ) ..Feel ... Feeling that girl you always wanted ( the sexy clothing)
.. Then again some of us on here ...Feel ..Really truly wanting to be just a girl and not the girl you always wanted but wanted to be ( that nasty spectrum thingy)..Sorry someone had to say it..

[Beverley Sims]

Reine,
That is a real Francophile question. I really have to go away read more of the other threa again and see what I can come up with.
I have sat here tossing a penny and each time I come up with an answer a contra one is there to confuse the issue.

The easy out of this one is.... I don't know.

To Melissa Hobbes.

Sorry Melissa if it was in another "specific section" I am thinking of there would be a cat fight and it may get closed prematurely.
I am inclined to filter out the fantasy bits and go with the rest.

[Promethea]

Well, you should take into consideration the fact that the other thread was not directed to transgendered women, but crossdressers who probably have no real desire to actually be women. So being only a fantasy, it may be in whatever idealized way they prefer. Ask the same question in the Transexual Forum and the answers would be quite different.

The other day I was wondering how FFS appointments go, and what do people tell their doctors about what they want to look like. I, for one, know that if I decide to go through with surgical transition, I would take my sister´s photo. It may help that she isn´t ugly (she isn´t Eva Longoria either, let´s be realistic), but what´s important is she´s like my twin that was born eight years earlier. Turning my face into hers would be possible, and it would certainly satisfy me.

Now, back to fantasy land. It looks like you want to say there´s some flawed logic in wanting to be a good looking (by "male" standards) woman and expecting to be attractive to women, or wanting to transition while still keeping our dangly bits because lesbians don´t like dangly bits.

Well, in my experience, lesbians, like the rest of people, come in all varieties and tastes.
I´ve had a lesbian friend of mine cut the blood flow to my hand when a girl with a short dress and legs all the way down to the ground walked before us. Some like their women femme, some like them butch, and some don´t care that much about looks.
And about the second part... well, there´s webcomic (http://www.darcomic.com/2004/01/01/whatthe****/) author Erika Moen, who identifies as lesbian but much to her surprise fell in love with and married a man (she talks about that in her comic, it´s an interesting and fun read). When I started to accept I wasn´t just male and decided to do something about it, I was afraid I would end up alone because I would be too feminine for straight girls and too masculine for lesbians. In reality, since I´m out and about, none of my partners (short therm and long term... well, relatively long term, I still don´t find "the one") identified as straight (some as bi, some lesbian), and none of them complained about my penis. In the words of another lesbian friend: "The problem is not the penis, it´s what attached to it".

[Badtranny]

Hello Melissa, this is a very interesting thought, can you elaborate on this a little for me as to why you would think this.

This isn't the thread to elaborate on my snark, but suffice to say most of the population here are logging on either before or after some "alone time" on the net. There's only a handful of CD's here who would have any interest in entertaining Reine's query.

[PaulaQ]

@Badtranny - what's wrong with alone time on the 'net?
@ReineD - why can't we be lesbians, and just kind of bad at it because for most of, 'lesbian studies' consisted solely of men's magazine photoshoots?

[Debra Russell]

Why not be young and beautiful? if you could choose - but I would settle for a female version of who I am.............................Debra

[Taylor186]

I also posted in the other thread that I thought many of the answers were rooted in fantasy, but internally I wondered if they weren't serious wishes.

I calculated that 42% (60 posters) gave an unqualified yes. I wonder, if they were really serious, why they're not actively transitioning? My experience on other transition focused forums is that those who seriously desire transition make it happen, no matter the cost or pain.


I don't want to target anyone, but these are just the first few things I read that indicated that some respondents would want to be sexually attractive rather than just nice-looking:

"Can I specify proportions?"
"would love for my body to feel the urges of a women, and be able to also feel the urges of a man"
"I'd love being Beyoncé, but Angela Merkel? No thanks!"
"Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes"
"Or maybe turn into a really good looking and built nice *******"
"only if I were young and beautiful"
"as long as I can pick my body and looks"

Well, we see those quotes differently. I see one, or maybe two, of those quotes as sexually related. The others not so much.

I think that if you asked 1000 non-crossdressing males if they would change into a woman you would get a few to say yes with the same kind of qualifications. Actually I also think if you asked women what they would change about themselves you would get a lot of similar body related answers. It's a product of the culture we've been brought up in.


I've also read in this forum, time and time again, that having a nice body (men, not women, tend to be attracted to nice bodies) is important

Can't agree that this is men only. I know plenty of women who go gaga over 6-pack abs.


and over time, many members have said (and they also have dressed like) they want to be sexy. You can see this in the choice of clothing, the poses, etc.

Absolutely. There is a spoken or unspoken fetish component to many a crosdresser's clothing choices.


The explanation in this thread that many CDers emulate the ideal that their male selves are attracted to makes sense to me,

Speaking for myself, I consider that I have the perfect wife for who I am. But, to her credit, she looks and dresses nothing like I do when I crossdress.


though I still need to read through Jenni's post to digest why it is important to be attractive to themselves more than to their hetero GG partners.

Yes, I found both of Jenni's quotes very insightful, at least for how crossdressing affects me.

[Eryn]

MODERATOR NOTE:

Several posts, including a couple of my own, were steering this thread off-topic and were reported by two members not involved in this thread. I have deleted those posts, also including my own.

Let's stick to Reine's topic and not turn this into a slagging match between groups that should be supporting each other.

Eryn

[susan54]

Reine has batted the issue back by playing a blinder. Interesting that some of the best questions are raised by a GG. I had not imagined for a moment that the objective of dressing up was to be attractive to myself in 'that' way and it isn't like that. And, when I am in a relationship, I prefer being with the real woman to being my imaginary one - but I do like to have a bit of both.

I am lucky because I have a body that looks good whether it is dressed as a man or a woman or even undressed (as a man, obviously). I don't long for a different body. I could live with less hairy legs, but that is all. Men have fewer insecurities about their bodies than women- and I think the cherrypicking gives crossdressers some of the best of both worlds. In short I am totally happy with male me and female version. Yes, I use a woman's name, the same way I wear a skirt and have painted toes - it adds to the fun - but I do not, in any way, adopt a female identity for msyelf - no matter how I dress. I am acting.
What Reine has made me realise, without her mentioning it specifically, is that my mother (ah yes, said Sigmund, now we are getting somewhere) was really into clothes and looking good. She judged how people looked and dressed without judging them by this. Perhaps I am trying to impress her by looking good or "attractive" (mother would not wish me to look "hot" now, would she? - said Norman Bates). My sister ended up being seriously addicted to clothes and make up - even more than me. She has seen me dressed and just took it in her stride - but no particular feedback on outfits!

I have a bit more to think about now. After 40 years I may have an inkling about why I do this - and the clue came from a GG not another CD or a psychologist. Hmmm. But ... why do I never bother with the wig or make-up when I am not going out, while ALWAYs wearing a bra and forms (except on rare occasions I go out as a man in a skirt)? Maybe I like looking at a female body and legs without seeing an actual woman? If it si relevant, I like my partner to be elegant and beautiful (and at time 'hot') but that is less important than personality - all but one of my partners over the last 30 years was at least one size bigger than me and did not have such nice legs - and this did not matter - they were lovely, lovely women. And I am very lucky that they are still in my life. Elegance is nice, but not as nice as being a lovely, interesting person.

[ReineD]

.But yes to be blunt we are still guys and the attraction verses the inner desire ( emulate verse's feel or both even) Emulate ..Having that girl you always wanted ( that girl being how we emulate our appearance tho we fail miserably ) ..Feel ... Feeling that girl you always wanted ( the sexy clothing)

A good analogy is the paradoxical quantum mechanics theory of wave-particle duality which is a big mystery to physicists: matter can indeed have both wave and particle properties at the same time (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKdoE1vX7k4)! So it is possible to embody the inner self (internal drive for self-actualization) and at the same time to have an attraction (a drive directed externally) to a person which is at the same time, the self, while keeping the option to switch back to being attractive to a female partner.

… which brings me back to Jenni's explanation in the last paragraph of #62, which is not counter-intuitive for CDers but it does seem counter-intuitive to people like me, for whom self-validation or presentation is NOT entirely separate from the lust (sexual attraction) that is normally directed toward someone else. In other words, unless I am painting the bathroom, I do not present in a way that my SO is not attracted to ... for example he loves my long hair and I have no intention of cutting it because of this. But, Jenni explains that these rules or states of being change with CDers who do want to be attractive (in a way that men more than women find attractive) even if they know that their mode of presentation is not sexually stimulating for their partner if she is a hetero GG. So, they switch back and forth between fantasy and reality. A personal observation is in order here: I am not affected by the way that women look and present themselves. I can be just as friendly with a woman based on her personality, even if she is missing two front teeth, has no boobs, has short legs, and has not combed her hair, as I can be with a woman who is well-groomed. lol. This is because there is never a sexual attraction to other women for me. But, the degree of attractiveness that I perceive in a male WILL affect my reaction to him. To be honest, I'll smile a lot more to an attractive male than I will to an unattractive male. This sounds shallow, but I think this is the rule of the birds and the bees, even if I am in a relationship and have absolutely no intention of stepping outside of it. :p

I also have to say that I find my SO attractive no matter how s/he presents (I do think of him/her as being outside the gender binary), but, I gather this is not the norm.

At any rate, I'm probably making this a lot more complicated than it needs to be, but this is because I am trying to translate your motives (for those of you who've experienced the sexual aspect of CDing) into something that I as a non-CDer can relate to and therefore understand.

Thanks for putting up with me! :)

P.S. If you have the time, do watch the double slit experiment that I linked to above. It's quite humorous and eerily reminiscent of the behaviors of closeted CDers, which change based on whether they are being observed or not. Hopefully you will all smile at this. I did not post this to criticize in any way.



Well, we see those quotes differently. I see one, or maybe two, of those quotes as sexually related.

Taylor, you clearly do not relate to the group of CDers who have experienced the sexual aspect of the CDing, and so it makes sense that you would not read the same things into these words as I do here and in sentiments in other threads from CDers who want to be sexy, including the manner of dress and poses in many of the picture threads. I'm not saying that every CDer has sexualized the CDing, but I do believe that it starts out this way for many (most?) and it does stay that way for a significant percentage at least until middle age when the natural processes of aging take hold.

[visitor138]

Well, since I don't consider myself a very atractive male, if I were transformed to a female, I would not be very atttactive. So If i could be instantly turned female, I would hope to be at least an average looking woman with great legs.

[MysticLady]

A good analogy is the paradoxical quantum mechanics theory of wave-particle duality which is a big mystery to physicists:.

The What....The Who.....:heehee:




This sounds shallow, but I think this is the rule of the birds and the bees, even if I am in a relationship and have absolutely no intention of stepping outside of it. :p


Reine, Riene, Your just being honest. Everybody likes pretty people. Human nature.


I dress because I love it. I gave up trying to answer why because it gives me to many brain problems.:D

[Jane P]

Reine , this is a paradox that I do not understand either. I do not wish to become a woman ,and am still trying to come to terms with why I wish to cd at all . I do not wish to attract male attention , but as far as things go , I wish to look , to feel as feminine and beautiful as I possibly can . This makes me stay behind closed doors and spinning in circles. if I wanted to be a woman I suppose attracting male attention would be "normal" but I don't and I don't so why even bother.

The line from a Van Morrison song , "Wild Night" , come to mind , " the girls walk by dressed up for each other ". Women know the effort required to look beautiful and if I could pull it off and be accepted for that then even if they are not sexually attracted to me but think I look sexy that would be the thing I am looking for. The side effect though is that you look sexy and therefore attract attention from men even though that is not your intent.

This is the thought that keeps me spinning in the circle of self loathing and self acceptance where I continually find myself.

[Kate's at home]

Reine, I want to thank you for starting and maintaining this wonderful thread. It has been the most thought provoking one yet for me in the few years I've been checking in. I also want to thank in particular Jennie, Taylor, and in this last post, Jonnie, for your contributions. You all have kept me thinking...

Reine, I believe you are absolutely on track with your questions, and I believe the range of responses have reflected the range of experiences and intentions we all experience.

I wonder if ambivalence is a powerful force at play in crossdressing, and to varying degrees for most of us, possibly changing from day to day. I remember a cover story in Rolling Stone in the early '80's on Stevie Nicks, with a subtitle to the effect of 'the girl every other girl wants to be and every boy wants to be with'. Or, to put it another way, to what extent do (at least some) crossdressers find themselves in the middle of this question, i.e. di I want to BE the object of my desire (some construct internalized as feminine), BE WITH that, or..., BOTH?

Obviously, the starting point of this question (or quest) is from a masculine perspective of being the "other" or outsider to the feminine and colors everything that follows (as you point out Reine in discussing GG's focus on grooming and others note the focus on dressing by GG's to fit in and dress/style frequently for each other). "Sexy, "hot", "pretty, etc. becomes a projection of desire, I would argue for many who crossdress, of a specific personal idealized sense of feminine onto themselves. I would argue that the wide range of intentions described here daily is a manifestation of this process. Or, to what degree today do I want to BE or BE with that projection, or, maybe both.

Or, I can say at least this is what I experience. And it always seems to be a moving target.

Hope this adds to the conversation.

Kate

[DanielleT]

What an interesting thread, much good discussion. I think embracing our female side is a natural thing, although some have much trouble with it. Being a woman has much less to do with our birth sex than it does how we perceive ourselves. I really think that once an individual comes to grips with who they really are, who they really want to be, things (kind of) become easier. A few years ago, after many years of questioning who I really was, I turned to womanhood. To this day, while I can't truly live out my life the way I would want it to be, I have made so many strides. While I still outwardly dress male during the workday, I always wear panties and from time to time a bra under the right outfit. After work and on the weekend, I am all girl.

Once I started doing full body shaves, wearing my hair and nails longer, more womanlike, I felt like it was the real me. Not long there after, I discovered breast forms and how really good I could look when fully dressed. I loved my new life and practiced it as often as I could. I threw away all my male underwear and replaced it with pretty panties of various styles and colors, which I started wearing every day. I love the feel of a bra and started wearing them more often.

Oh and then the pretty nylon dresses and skirts! OMG, the first time I put one on I knew where my destiny was. Wearing heels was a bit of a challenge at first, but I worked through that and learned how to walk and posture myself as a woman.

Not long thereafter, I started making (limited) trips out in public, fully dressed.

In the privacy of my home, I live openly as a woman. I love every aspect of it!

Would love to chat with other women beginning their experience.

Dani