Resistance is futile because PROGRESS is inevitable.

[Wildaboutheels]

The title seems to be a common theme around here. Yet another FORUM MYTH. As in ...we ALL [all CDs no matter what letters some will want/need/use to describe themselves] are on a wondrous journey, likely to encounter the pink fog at some time or another and eventually have thousands of dollars worth of female "stuff" AND that most will have transition cross their minds at some point and that [as one well known Forum Dino declared some months ago] "There are only 2 kinds of CDs. Those that have left the closet and those that want to". NONSENSE.

Are YOU worried or concerned that "it" may "take over your life" at some point? In fear of catching/succumbing to the "dreaded? pink fog? Worried that some day you might WANT to transition? Worried that IF you don't have/catch the pink fog that somehow you are a "bad" CDer? Or not a "real" CDer?

If you are a new or newer person here, don't be fearful that you are "dressing" incorrectly or that there is something wrong with you if you don't go to bed at night dreaming of breastforms. The "right" way to CD is whatever combination of clothing, jewelry, shapewear, wigs, forms, makeup and mannerisms is enough for YOU.

If you start claiming/thinking that you are powerless to contain and control yourself, it becomes an easy EXCUSE/reason to perhaps "force" things on a SO or your friends that they are not comfortable with.

[Cheryl Ann Owens]

There are many facets to the questions proposed here. I can only speak for myself and my experiences. When I met my future and now second wife in 1987 I felt liberated. Nothing was really off limits and I could do anything I wanted. In the early years of our relationship I was definitely in a pink fog. I bought outfits and sexy undergarments, wigs, makeup, and my SO would allow me to make any other changes if I wanted to even to this day. She doesn't care what anyone else thinks either.

It seems to have changed. Today I am somewhat conservative and realistic. I used to go all out with makeup and dressing in my finest clothes and even went to some support meetings. But lately I tend to dress like any other woman on a daily basis. This means a nice top, jeans, and shoes which might be sneakers or sandals for this weather. "IT" has taken over my life in a very subtle way to just enjoy feminine clothing which makes me feel feminine and satisfies my internal feelings of congruence. I look at the rammifications of a full transition and have decided I don't want to put myself through that but instead make the best of it. My dysphoria isn't as serious as someone who absolutely needs to transition.

I don't think I'm a bad CDer but I have found a comfort zone for myself where I can be myself. Would I love to take this to many new levels? Yes! But I also have to be realistic when it comes to family, comfort in all other aspects of life, and pure confort all around. I've explored lipo body fat transfer to have breasts and a flat stomach. But there is also the cost and other implications while still presenting as male in everyday life.

Our lives are certainly challenging and not easy struggling with so many issues. I just make the best of what I have and what is practical.

Cheryl

[Princess Grandpa]

Thank you for those words. Frankly it is my main worry right now. Even more so than one of my children noticing traces of red nail polish, or forgetting my toes are painted and coming out of the room barefoot.

I like the term pink fog. A very apt phrase.

[Edyta_C]

You are the only one that controls you. The majority of CDers do not "progress". There are some of us who discover that they are transgendered, but mostonly have to fear the dreaded "pink fog". The pink fog effect exists with all "hobbies" whether it is photography, cars, music, or CDing. Balance is critical whether on heels, or in how much you spend in time and money. Unless you have some type of compulsive behavior, you are in control and should try to make reasonable decisions about CDing. Do I spend alot? Well I do spend more on my femme wardrobe than on my drab wardrobe. But I try to spend significantly less that my wife on my femme clothes.

So I do not believe you will be swept away by this.

Edy

[Angela Campbell]

Or like they say...whats the difference between a crossdresser and a transexual......2 years!

Ok not really.

[Deedee Skyblue]

I don't think I'm a bad CDer... Cheryl

I'm not sure what a bad CDer is, but I'm pretty sure you are not a bad one; my personal opinion is that the only bad CDer is one who deliberately hurts someone else by her CD behavior. I certainly agree with Wild that each of us has her own unique 'CD-ness' and it is not up to any of the others of us to judge whether someone else is good or bad. I also agree with the advice to newer members - don't let anyone else scare you off your own path with an opinion stated as a fact.

Deedee

[PaulaQ]

You are the only one that controls you. The majority of CDers do not "progress". There are some of us who discover that they are transgendered, but mostonly have to fear the dreaded "pink fog".

Hate to tell you, but you are pretty much all transgendered. Most of you all will NOT progress beyond some amount of CD'ing. Most of you may not even fully dress - ever. But try to quit for a significant period of time, and let me know how it goes. <3

[Eryn]

All male TG individuals start off displaced in the male direction from our final equilibrium point.

For a very few of us that point is all the way at the other end of the spectrum, that is to transition.

For the majority of us the equilibrium point lies somewhere between the extremes of male and female, defined by our desires and circumstances. It takes time to figure out where this point is, and even once found it is not static.

We are not engaged in a competition and there is no finish line. Our goal should be to find a situation where we are as satisfied as possible with our place in life.

Yes, many male TGs long to be female, but I think that a lot of this longing is due to the fact that females can live in the "middle ground" and be lauded while males occupying the same ground risk ostracism. Just about any guy would say that he loves a woman who can change her own oil, but many ladies aren't quite as enthusiastic about a man who polishes his own nails.

[Lucy_Bella]

Hate to tell you, but you are pretty much all transgendered. Most of you all will NOT progress beyond some amount of CD'ing. Most of you may not even fully dress - ever. But try to quit for a significant period of time, and let me know how it goes. <3

Not really Paula, just because some stop for short periods of time and routinely dress in female clothing does in no way make them a Trans Gender :) .. That would be saying a GG would be Trans Gender because most I know do not wear make up everyday or dress feminine every day but they are 100 percent of the time happy being a female.

Being a Trans Gender( from the definition I understand ) is wanting to be the gender you was not born as but also comfortable being the gender you was born .. Some like to feel feminine while other like the feel of feminine.. Big big difference... Trans Genders dress to satisfy or fill the urge to" BE female"..Cross Dressers dress to satisfy or fill the urge to" the feel of feminine"..

[PaulaQ]

Being a Trans Gender( from the definition I understand ) is wanting to be the gender you was not born as but also comfortable being the gender you was born ..

Do you buy those garments because you like the color and fit, or because they are women's? Expressing cross gender behavior is a hallmark of being transgendered. You don't have to want to be a woman to be TG - you just need to act like one sometimes in some ways. It is a VERY broad definition.

We won't really be able to define this until they understand the origins of these behaviors in the brain. Right now, they barely study TS people, and other variants of TG? Forgetaboutit - they got no product to sell you anyway, so why waste funding?

There's not much point bringing genetic females into this discussion - society, for whatever arbitrary reason, ignores cross gender behavior in them to the extent that it is actually a problem for some F2M TS to get taken seriously as men.

Why would the same behavior (cross gender expression / cross dressing) have two different origins? Doesn't make more sense that in all probability, it's the same origin, and just a question of degree - in the same way that you don't remotely need to be insulin dependent from childhood to be a diabetic, indeed some diabetics are able to control their condition with diet and exercise alone. This isn't a perfect analogy, because I don't consider being TG to be a disease, but you get the idea - stuff going on with the body / mind to varying degrees.

[Lucy_Bella]

Do you buy those garments because you like the color and fit, or because they are women's? Expressing cross gender behavior is a hallmark of being transgendered. You don't have to want to be a woman to be TG - you just need to act like one sometimes in some ways. It is a VERY broad definition.

We won't really be able to define this until they understand the origins of these behaviors in the brain. Right now, they barely study TS people, and other variants of TG? Forgetaboutit - they got no product to sell you anyway, so why waste funding?


This is very much true and can go in both directions ( considering ones self as Trans Gender or A Cross Dresser).. But the answer is very simple to be honest and I mean that is being honest with yourself.. Yes I buy clothing that are made for women doesn't mean I want to be a woman ... I also buy a wig ,make-up and lip gloss..These are all material things that can do certain things for those who are the be holder only.. These materials do not make me a woman and it would be silly to think that because I use them, I want to be a woman.. Wouldn't it? Take the color pink, is that a feminine color only? I know of plenty G.G.'s that hate that color does that make them less feminine?

The desire to be a Gender and the desire to expressing a Gender are two completely different desires.. I do not base this off of anyone's behavior but my own ..I have noticed that when I do express my desire I have no desire to be a female during ,before or even after.. That's not being Trans Gender ..Trans Gender is having the desire to be a woman the purpose for dressing is to satisfy these desires and although both Trans Genders and Cross Dressers do the same thing( dress up) the reasons why they do are completely different..

[PaulaQ]

I'm not saying that you have to want to be a woman to be transgender. Just act / dress like one to some extent from time to time. My belief is that the imperative to violate extremely serious social taboos is liable to be the same in both cases, simply differing in degree.

Put another way, you have a very mild case of what ails trannys. You are fortunate.

It's possible that the behavior (a compulsion to cross gender expression) could be explained by two different psychological phenomenon. But that just seems like wishful thinking to me.

[Lucy_Bella]

I understand what you are saying ...Trust me, I have had my whole life struggling with this topic.. Many here feel labels are not important and that's fine I can live with being called Lucy on this site only or a girl ..But to be honest I get offended by that, it's fine tho, I will accept that Trans Gender is the umbrella term used for Cross Dressers but it doesn't define who we are as individuals .. I have learned mutual respect will get you along ways and if we all need to be bundled up under one umbrella the reason shall only be for one..Protection and understanding...But to boost or push off personal beliefs that we are all the same because we all fall under the one umbrella is a miss understanding ..So if we can not understand each other we will never gain any knowledge of ourselves ,we will be miss guided and lead astray or even left out :)..

I really enjoy your insight in this civil conversation.. :)

[kimdl93]

Well, that's one way of overgeneralizing about the comments here. Frankly, you could make the opposite argument equally well...that we're "all" hellbent for divorce, job loss, rejection by family and friends.

[PaulaQ]

Many here feel labels are not important and that's fine I can live with being called Lucy on this site only or a girl ..But to be honest I get offended by that, it's fine tho, I will accept that Trans Gender is the umbrella term used for Cross Dressers but it doesn't define who we are as individuals ..

I only like labels for technical reasons - if they can, in some way, shed light or insight into a person's state of being.

I am totally, and 100% AGAINST labels being some kind of a definition for a person. You are your own unique self, and while you may have commonalities with others that could be labeled for some useful purpose, these should NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER define you! NEVER I say!

My belief is that there is a relationship between us all, and that if anything, we should treat each other with respect and compassion, no matter where each person falls on the TG spectrum.

My view is that cross dressers most likely suffer from a VERY mild form of GD, one that doesn't debilitate them in the way it can for full on TS people. In my view, this makes a CD very fortunate, really. But until science does a better job of understanding our behaviors, and the biological imperatives behind some of them, really, your guess is as good as mine. So if I'm proven wrong - I won't shed a tear.

[Lucy_Bella]

I only like labels for technical reasons - if they can, in some way, shed light or insight into a person's state of being.

I am totally, and 100% AGAINST labels being some kind of a definition for a person. You are your own unique self, and while you may have commonalities with others that could be labeled for some useful purpose, these should NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER define you! NEVER I say!

My belief is that there is a relationship between us all, and that if anything, we should treat each other with respect and compassion, no matter where each person falls on the TG spectrum

I must say then to call or say someone is Trans Gender would be ,in a sense , labeling that person.. I understand that it is next to impossible to address members here as to their desired label.. But to use a label believed to many as an Umbrella term is self diagnosing those members as your own label..

Back to the O.P.s topic.. To gain any ground one sometimes has to lose some.. Take the past replies as example..If you want your spouse or family members to accept you and the progressions you may encounter..You would have to create an understand that is your very own path of who you really are.. You can't simply tell loved ones and friends I am Trans Gender and expect them to understand what you really are..Because being Trans Gender to them is completely different in their minds than how you see it..

Understand that you have spent many years trying to understand yourself and as an individual saying you are Trans Gender simply doesn't describe who you really are for them..As you can see it has many different meanings in our own Forum .. You would have to break the term down and use the labels that best describe you under that favorable term..Knowledge and communication is the key,questions will be asked and be prepared to answer them honestly..

Remember the world doesn't understand us because we are in such a large spectrum you need to funnel your own individual being to better create an understanding to others.. Myself after making the mistake of telling my Ex I was Trans Gender only left her even more confused and looking back I can understand why.. My Ex wanted to be with a male, a man , she isn't a Lesbian and couldn't see herself with a man wishing to be a female.. She just knew that the road ahead was leading me to transition .. By the time I figured out where her thought process was it was to late nothing I could say would change her mind about who I was..Except time and neither of us took that...It's just a word of caution to be careful having the internet makes it easy for others to wrongfully self diagnose who you are ..

[docrobbysherry]

Thank u, Wild! For concisely outlining the dressing experience in a nutshell for those that haven't experienced all of it yet!

Only one thing I may question: Your use of the word, "progress". "Change", yes! But, "progress"? For some of us, that's debatable!

[PaulaQ]

I must say then to call or say someone is Trans Gender would be ,in a sense , labeling that person.. I understand that it is next to impossible to address members here as to their desired label.. But to use a label believed to many as an Umbrella term is self diagnosing those members as your own label..

Well, all I would say about it is that it doesn't really matter what I think, does it? Here's the useful things I'll say about the transgender label:
1. I think almost everyone in this group would want equal legal and civil rights, regardless of whether or not you are a CD or something more. (Access to your children in divorce, the ability to use the restroom of the gender you present as, lack of job discrimination, equal protection under the law, etc.) It's much harder to do this if we are a hundred little groups.

2. I think people in this spectrum should examine their feelings about gender carefully. Again, I know for certain that most all CDers will NEVER identify as female and NEVER transition, or anything close to that. But it's hard to know for sure where you fall if you aren't honest with yourself, and you repress this stuff. And it's EASY to repress it, because society tends to kick the crap out of you if you show this side of yourself.


You can't simply tell loved ones and friends I am Trans Gender and expect them to understand what you really are..Because being Trans Gender to them is completely different in their minds than how you see it..

Myself after making the mistake of telling my Ex I was Trans Gender only left her even more confused and looking back I can understand why.. My Ex wanted to be with a male, a man , she isn't a Lesbian and couldn't see herself with a man wishing to be a female.. She just knew that the road ahead was leading me to transition ..

This is heartbreaking, and I guess why a person should never use the label of transgender with others outside of us girls, especially family members, unless you are pretty sure you identify mostly as female. It's unfortunate that so many myths, and so much general bullshit that is believed about us. Even for female identifying TG girls, "transition" isn't always the right path, and SRS is definitely not the right answer for all. There are a LOT of options. The key is to find what's right for you.

[Jacqueline Winona]

And that's the problem with labels and terms, isn't it? the term transgendered means something different to all of us, let alone those who don't CD, aren't TS, don't want to know anything about either, and still refer to any man in women's clothing as a drag queen or transvestite.
I've never identified as transgendered, either. But as you can see in this thread different people may use a broader definition that would include just about anyone here. And you're right that there can be a subtle pressure to continue to "progress in dressing," but I don't see it as anything intentional by anyone. But the bottom line that I think all of us can and should appreciate is simply to accept that we are all on our own path. Most of us aren't going to travel to a different city just to dress, and most of us aren't going to take hormones, but I got no problem with anyone who wants to do either.

[Lorileah]

You can't simply tell loved ones and friends I am Trans Gender and expect them to understand what you really are..Because being Trans Gender to them is completely different in their minds than how you see it.. Thus why "we" as a group should use the same nomenclature. When we don't agree how do we expect others to understand. And when "we" argue over who is what and why they don't want to be associated with "them" it doesn't help either

Knowledge and communication is the key,questions will be asked and be prepared to answer them honestly.. And use the language that is in being used in the community and in academia for the group.


Remember the world doesn't understand us because we are in such a large spectrum you need to funnel your own individual being to better create an understanding to others.. and again when we all want to drive the bus and make up our own "rules" then we will continue to confuse and baffle the rest of the world I have used this example before. I am in medicine. When I read about carcinoma it means a specific thing to me, but it is broad. If I read about a adenocarcinoma I know what the means and I can talk to other medicine people about that. That is how we communicate. Now if a client's pet has an adenocarcinoma and I say that they often look at me with a fearful blank expression so I break it down for them. I EXPLAIN it instead of saying "gee you just don't get what I am saying...but I know what I am saying" Same here. If we talk about "transgender" we should understand that is the whole. Then if we care to delineate further we can say CD or TS or GQ. In order to get anywhere though especially with politicians and "rights" we should use the same language. If you muddy the waters for them they tend to lose interest rapidly.

[ReineD]

"There are only 2 kinds of CDs. Those that have left the closet and those that want to". NONSENSE.

It is my understanding that every CDer (unless it is pure fetish), is ruled by internal and/or external barriers. If the barriers are internal (for example not wanting to rock the boat with a spouse, or knowing that he will never be able to pass so there is an unwillingness to even try), then it will feel as if there is no need to go beyond a certain level that feels comfortable and fits with the current life circumstances. But if you remove the barriers, it is likely that the CDing will not remain static.

This is why there is often an increase in the CDing when their is more time, more freedom from a job, or after a divorce or being widowed, or after the kids are grown, or even after a certain level of self-acceptance is reached.

There is of course an end point for many people and this does determine whether someone is a CD or TS or at any point in between. Not everyone is on their way to transition. But, if you ask CDers who are deeply closeted for whatever reason, if they would like to be validated for who they are or what they do, most will say yes.

If this does not describe you, then you are the exception in my opinion.

[AlyssaS]

I've struggled with this for a long time. I would love to have feminine curves, breasts, and smooth skin. However, I don't desperately need it like many of the people you read in the TS forum need it. There are many things I like about being a man, and I have a family who is important to me, and I want to be their father and husband, not their 2nd mother and wife. So despite the fact that my gender identity might be 2/3 female, I think I maximize my overall happiness by staying as a man, and just CDing when I can. I need to learn how to do make up better to be able to go out and try to pass (I have a very heavy stubble that I've never been able to cover successfully) , but I still go out when I can (which isn't often, though right now I'm sitting in an airport wearing a women's cut tshirt, women's shorts, and women's socks and sneakers along with a VS A-cup 'add 2 cup sizes' bra. I'm totally presenting as male, but it makes me comfortable to be like this. 2 nights ago I was sitting playing slots in the casino with C cup forms, corset, turtleneck and long flowing green skirt with 4" heels. Due to the beard issue, I'm sure anyone that took more than a quick glance knew I was a man, but that's fine ... I live 2500 miles from here, so what do I care? That made me incredibly nervous, and after about 15 minutes, I went back to the room and undid all the work it took me 1.5 hours to do, and finished my night as a man again. It was my first foray into real public like that, and it feels good to have done it, but I wasn't enjoying it as much as I could have.

We all just have to do what makes us the happiest overall. That's kind of the point of life --- enjoying it.

[Georgette]

Hate to tell you, but you are pretty much all transgendered. Most of you all will NOT progress beyond some amount of CD'ing. Most of you may not even fully dress - ever. But try to quit for a significant period of time, and let me know how it goes. <3

You are right all the way I tried to quit and I did for a couple of years but here I am world.

[Wildaboutheels]

The trouble with this is that there are folks that simply REFUSE to believe that it CAN be "just the clothes" despite the mountain of evidence for the world to see at this very Forum. Burying one's head in the sand and sticking one's fingers in their ears is not going to change those FACTS.

FACT: Any Human of any age [regardless of any letters they choose to identify themselves] can wear almot any item of clothing [with few exceptions] out in public REGARDLESS of what store or which department it came from. Anyone who would flatly DENY that SOME women's clothing items might fit SOME men better than men's items [OR VICE VERSA] is NOT a reasonable person and not much of a shopper, obviously. Some people have no trouble trying on muliple items of clothing till they find brands that fit.

ANY person who has tried on perhaps a dozen or even 2 dozen brands of jeans etc., at any decent sized Thrift store wil attest to this.

And... another FORUM MYTH [claimed by some of the CD busting "experts" here] is that THEY can spot a man wearing "female jeans".

HOGWASH! There ar plenty of "plain" women's jeans. Not all of them scream FEMALE.

Maybe there is some rule in the CDers HANDBOOK that specifies that what one wears at home they must also wear out? [IF they choose to go out dessed in public of course]

Could someone puleeeeeeze check on that for me? I wanna make sure I am doing this the right way.

[ReineD]

The trouble with this is that there are folks that simply REFUSE to believe that it CAN be "just the clothes" despite the mountain of evidence for the world to see at this very Forum. Burying one's head in the sand and sticking one's fingers in their ears is not going to change those FACTS.

You mean like this?

:lalala:

Seriously, your argument defies logic for this reason: what would possess anyone to engage in behaviors that are not easily accepted in our society? Accidental exposure could threaten a job, alienate children, cause friends to keep their distance, cause issues in a marriage, etc. So what type of pull is strong enough to compel a person to engage in behaviors that can potentially have disastrous consequences? People do engage in such behaviors all the time, of course. There are all types of addicts and compulsives that hide their behaviors. But for them, it is a lot more than "just about the shopping", or "just about the gambling", or "just about the porn, the drinking, the drugging, or any other behavior that is hidden".

So, why hide if it is "just about the clothes"? And why hang on to the right to engage in the behavior so tenaciously? If I golfed and tomorrow golfing became overwhelmingly viewed as an undesirable pastime with negative consequences for doing it, I don't think that I"d have an issue with not golfing anymore. :p

[Krista1985]

The title seems to be a common theme around here. Yet another FORUM MYTH. As in ...we ALL [all CDs no matter what letters some will want/need/use to describe themselves] are on a wondrous journey, likely to encounter the pink fog at some time or another and eventually have thousands of dollars worth of female "stuff" AND that most will have transition cross their minds at some point and that [as one well known Forum Dino declared some months ago] "There are only 2 kinds of CDs. Those that have left the closet and those that want to". NONSENSE.

I agree this does not apply to everyone. But I also think the posters of these threads are really only relating their own stories and there are many with similar stories. Their intent in most of the ones I read is to say, "This is how it worked for me, and how it might work for you too." as opposed to, "This is what happened to me and is going to happen to you too, like it or not."


Are YOU worried or concerned that "it" may "take over your life" at some point? In fear of catching/succumbing to the "dreaded? pink fog? Worried that some day you might WANT to transition? Worried that IF you don't have/catch the pink fog that somehow you are a "bad" CDer? Or not a "real" CDer?

I'm not really concerned about it. When I want to dress and do it, I feel great. When I can't be bothered with dressing and abstain, I feel good too. When I want to dress and can't, I reluctantly tolerate it until I can again. I think I have it all balanced out. Worried about being a bad CD'er? Nah, I used to be worried about becoming a good CD'er lolz. I know for me it's quite real, though less intense than I've seen it described for others. I am legit though :)


If you are a new or newer person here, don't be fearful that you are "dressing" incorrectly or that there is something wrong with you if you don't go to bed at night dreaming of breastforms. The "right" way to CD is whatever combination of clothing, jewelry, shapewear, wigs, forms, makeup and mannerisms is enough for YOU.

Here, here. True story. 100% agree with this statement.


If you start claiming/thinking that you are powerless to contain and control yourself, it becomes an easy EXCUSE/reason to perhaps "force" things on a SO or your friends that they are not comfortable with.

As long as you're not forcing them to x-dress too, what's the harm in sharing?

[Lucy_Bella]

Thus why "we" as a group should use the same nomenclature. When we don't agree how do we expect others to understand. And when "we" argue over who is what and why they don't want to be associated with "them" it doesn't help either



With all respect Lorileah, I would agree but to an extent ..A Grizzly bear and a K-9 dog are in the same family how many Grizzlies do we make into house pets? We ( Trans Genders and Cross Dressers) are in the same family but that and the dressing is were the similarities stop.. We have different drives for the purpose of dressing and you can't simply define yourself to a definition that doesn't fit ( I will go further into this on the last reply) ..



And use the language that is in being used in the community and in academia for the group.

That's why the true definition should be expressed ..Believe it or not Cross Dressers are a separate group ..They not only have the right to be a separate group they should not be in a group that doesn't accept them.. We ( cders ) tend to dress trashy, we love living in our closet ,we rarely reply in girlish fantasy threads and my original name before I was banned from this site wasn't a Femme name it was also hated.. ( these are examples to show a point only ** this is not in anyway trying to" one up "or "be better" than any other group that uses or reads these post**


and again when we all want to drive the bus and make up our own "rules" then we will continue to confuse and baffle the rest of the world I have used this example before. I am in medicine. When I read about carcinoma it means a specific thing to me, but it is broad. If I read about a adenocarcinoma I know what the means and I can talk to other medicine people about that. That is how we communicate. Now if a client's pet has an adenocarcinoma and I say that they often look at me with a fearful blank expression so I break it down for them. I EXPLAIN it instead of saying "gee you just don't get what I am saying...but I know what I am saying" Same here. If we talk about "transgender" we should understand that is the whole. Then if we care to delineate further we can say CD or TS or GQ. In order to get anywhere though especially with politicians and "rights" we should use the same language. If you muddy the waters for them they tend to lose interest rapidly.

If in medicine than you should understand the value on not miss-diagnosing a patient .. My counter offer to the analogy you provided would be blood..It's red but there are different types, surely you would give the patient the right type if needed..A Cross Dressers purpose for dressing is clearly for a different reason ..The original "Label " ( in the 1910's) for all people who crossed dressed was " transvestic fetishism" However many people who crossed dressed distant themselves from the " transvestic fetishism" because it didn't define their true persona.. This was all during the 70's.. Three groups were created to better define the people who cross dressed..Trans Sexual's , Trans Genders and Cross Dressers.. It is apparent that one of these three groups are getting push away and absorbed to a less fitting ( not a bad group :) group ..*** by saying less fitting is meaning the wrong group not the true group it should be and not a lower group in anyway**

[Lorileah]

With all respect Lorileah, I would agree but to an extent ..A Grizzly bear and a K-9 dog are in the same family how many Grizzlies do we make into house pets? Really BAD analogy. Not even close. They are both mammals but they are not the same family at all (Ursine vs Canine) This kind of logic would put deer and kangaroos in the same family so...not buying that argument at all. Beside we are all HUMAN here so the argument is even weaker. If you want to make the point I think you are after, you would say German Shepherd dogs and Poodles are both canines but different. Yet, they are under the same umbrella. Even wolves...and yes they are house pets in some cases.





Believe it or not Cross Dressers are a separate group ..They not only have the right to be a separate group they should not be in a group that doesn't accept them.. Who does not accept cross dressers? The DQ's? the TS's? The GQ's? Who you are making a huge broad brush remark about here that really has NO basis.
We ( cders ) tend to dress trashy, we love living in our closet ,we rarely reply in girlish fantasy threads and my original name before I was banned from this site wasn't a Femme name it was also hated.. ( these are examples to show a point only ** this is not in anyway trying to" one up "or "be better" than any other group that uses or reads these post** I call the BS card on all that...it is straight BS. YOU may do those things but not every CD or even MOST do those things.




If in medicine than you should understand the value on not miss-diagnosing a patient .. No idea where this is going but...um..ok
My counter offer to the analogy you provided would be blood..It's red but there are different types, surely you would give the patient the right type if needed still not getting your point...they could both get the same plasma...so???
..A Cross Dressers purpose for dressing is clearly for a different reason OK....so?..
The original "Label " ( in the 1910's) for all people who crossed dressed was " transvestic fetishism" However many people who crossed dressed distant themselves from the and yet they fall under the transgender definition...and in 1910 they thought a lot of diseases came from things they didn't...anemia wasn't from "iron poor blood" You know we do tend to learn and redefine as we go along. The world was flat in 1400, remember?
" transvestic fetishism" because it didn't define their true persona..[q This was all during the 70's.. Three groups were created to better define the people who cross dressed..Trans Sexual's , Trans Genders and Cross Dressers..It is apparent that one of these three groups are getting push away and absorbed to a less fitting ( not a bad group :) group .. So you think by being under the TG umbrella you are getting shafted? OK, but why?

OK so tomorrow we divide the transgender groups into different camps. YOU being a cross dresser decide to...I dunno go shopping (which according to your definition above a CD would not do so all those CDs who go out are now???). How do you make it known you are NOT a DQ or TS? Do you wear a sign? Now you decide you need to make a nature call, but the legislature has passed a law that says Transsexuals (because they are different than CDs in your world) can use the woman's room but you are a man...in a dress...who needs to go. Men's room? You HAVE to go you can't go home...so what do you do? The TSs have fought for the right to use the women's room...but you are a CD (look at the sign on your chest...see not TS or GQ...you are a CD...a man who as you pointed out dresses trashy).

OK here is my point. You all are riding the TG bus whether you want to or not. There are TGs who are working to protect or GAIN rights for you whether you are helping or not. You will get those perks no matter what. You say you don't need them? You are a man in a dress..you are NOT a man who gets the perks. Without the people working for you (whether you want it or not) you would be illegal in many states. You would still be seen as a pervert. So ride the bus, enjoy the ride. Because without the drivers you could not do what little you do.

CDs all dress trashy...really? Oy vey. :brolleyes:

[docrobbysherry]

U know, Reine, I ask myself this question EVERY DAY! Whether or not I dress. I have never had a problem with compulsive behavior. Nor has anyone in my family.

So WHY DRESSING!? I am not TS or "expressing my female side". I don't want to/can't stop and have no clue why!


You mean like this?

:lalala:

Seriously, your argument defies logic for this reason: what would possess anyone to engage in behaviors that are not easily accepted in our society? Accidental exposure could threaten a job, alienate children, cause friends to keep their distance, cause issues in a marriage, etc. So what type of pull is strong enough to compel a person to engage in behaviors that can potentially have disastrous consequences? People do engage in such behaviors all the time, of course. There are all types of addicts and compulsives that hide their behaviors. But for them, it is a lot more than "just about the shopping", or "just about the gambling", or "just about the porn, the drinking, the drugging, or any other behavior that is hidden".

So, why hide if it is "just about the clothes"? And why hang on to the right to engage in the behavior so tenaciously? If I golfed and tomorrow golfing became overwhelmingly viewed as an undesirable pastime with negative consequences for doing it, I don't think that I"d have an issue with not golfing anymore. :p

[ReineD]

So WHY DRESSING!? I am not TS or "expressing my female side". I don't want to/can't stop and have no clue why!

Sherry, when I said that it's not "just about the clothes", I was not implying that everyone is transsexual. Of course they're not ... transsexualism is quite rare. But it is still more than "just about the clothes". ... else why all the hiding? When people hide things it is because the things they are hiding are hugely important to them which indicates a great deal more than "just about the clothes" :p

[Lucy_Bella]

Really BAD analogy. Not even close. They are both mammals but they are not the same family at all (Ursine vs Canine) This kind of logic would put deer and kangaroos in the same family so...not buying that argument at all. Beside we are all HUMAN here so the argument is even weaker. If you want to make the point I think you are after, you would say German Shepherd dogs and Poodles are both canines but different. Yet, they are under the same umbrella. Even wolves...and yes they are house pets in some cases.

Black and white ...they're both in the same Order (Carnivora). Dogs are Family Canidae, bears are Family Ursidae. From an evolutionary standpoint, though, they are considered closely related. So this would prove my original point by saying Trans Gender and Cross Dressers are under the same umbrella ..( closely related ) The logic...( We Cross Dress) ...Different families ( crossdress for the attraction vs crossdress to satisfy gender urge opposite born as) ... Wasn't an argument it was a point and yes they are all mammals just as we are Human.. It's funny how an Analogy good or bad can relate to a point... That point BTW was the comparison of the two although not family they are closely related but have two different labels ..Carnivora ( umbrella crossdressing in action) Family (Canidae Cross Dresser vs Ursidae Trans Gender).. See how the logic can suck ? Your reply came back as if I had no clue to what I was talking about " not even close"..





Who does not accept cross dressers? The DQ's? the TS's? The GQ's? Who you are making a huge broad brush remark about here that really has NO basis.

You would be amazed by who.. Trust me I have had plenty of unacceptable comments my direction and yes from members of this site..That's why I always use tags!



I call the BS card on all that...it is straight BS. YOU may do those things but not every CD or even MOST do those things.

How do you know? Are you a CDer or you grouping the CDer's under the mythical umbrella? Let me re say this.. You can be a T.S. and a TG and crossdress of course you are crossdressing... But you can not be a T.S. or a T.G. and be JUST a "Cross Dresser".. I know you will not understand that comment because you feel that" just a Cross Dresser" is not a separate group..





No idea where this is going but...um..ok still not getting your point...they could both get the same plasma...so???

Yet we re-define another definition to better fit our own? This gets us no where as it seems .. The point was subscribing a bad treatment could cause us harm .. That means one group snubbed or combined into another would cause harm ..There are reasons why there are three groups ...Treatment... If I relate myself to only one gender, what business would I have seeing a gender specialist like my marriage counselor recommended ?.. Hearing a professional say that to me in front of my ex wife brought her to tears.. It caused harm..



OK....so?.. and yet they fall under the transgender definition...and in 1910 they thought a lot of diseases came from things they didn't...anemia wasn't from "iron poor blood" You know we do tend to learn and redefine as we go along. The world was flat in 1400, remember? So you think by being under the TG umbrella you are getting shafted? OK, but why?

I will answer this below


OK so tomorrow we divide the transgender groups into different camps. YOU being a cross dresser decide to...I dunno go shopping (which according to your definition above a CD would not do so all those CDs who go out are now???). How do you make it known you are NOT a DQ or TS? Do you wear a sign? Now you decide you need to make a nature call, but the legislature has passed a law that says Transsexuals (because they are different than CDs in your world) can use the woman's room but you are a man...in a dress...who needs to go. Men's room? You HAVE to go you can't go home...so what do you do? The TSs have fought for the right to use the women's room...but you are a CD (look at the sign on your chest...see not TS or GQ...you are a CD...a man who as you pointed out dresses trashy).

OK here is my point. You all are riding the TG bus whether you want to or not. There are TGs who are working to protect or GAIN rights for you whether you are helping or not. You will get those perks no matter what. You say you don't need them? You are a man in a dress..you are NOT a man who gets the perks. Without the people working for you (whether you want it or not) you would be illegal in many states. You would still be seen as a pervert. So ride the bus, enjoy the ride. Because without the drivers you could not do what little you do.

CDs all dress trashy...really? Oy vey. :brolleyes: You DO NOT want me to honestly answer the above...I was banned when I did honestly answer a related question on a Thread a few years back...I refuse to even go into this conversation about the above ( bath rooms) But "Just being a Cross Dresser" we don't normally go out and we don't normally shop unless it's on line ...

Trans Gender was never and will never be the umbrella for all forms of crossdressing ...You've completely missed the whole point and responded with common beliefs of this forum..

1. In the late 1910's all forms of crossdressing was under one label as I said earlier " transvestic fetishism".. It was not the correct term because there are many forms of crossdressing .. Many people choose NOT be under that label because of those differences and for " treatment purposes" so in the 1970's 3 groups were introduced that fit the " crossdressing spectrum" ( notice I didn't say gender?).. The groups introduced ..

A. Trans Sexual... We all know of this group no need for me to explain ..(** I have no problem with this lifestyle**)


B.Trans Gender
Trans meaning =
1. across, beyond, crossing, on the other side transoceanic trans-Siberian transatlantic
2. changing thoroughly transliterate
3. transcending transubstantiation
4. transversely transect
5. (Chemistry / Elements & Compounds) (often in italics) indicating that a chemical compound has a molecular structure in which two groups or atoms are on opposite sides of a double bond trans-butadiene Compare cis- [2]


Gender meaning= Sexual identity, especially in relation to society or culture.
a. The condition of being female or male; sex.
b. Females or males considered as a group

So in the definition alone Both sexes!

3. Cross Dresser.. A Cross Dresser has no gender identity issues , they are not dressing to act out desires of being the opposite sex they were born as.. How does this in anyway place them under a " Trans Gender " umbrella? It's a mythical terminology and if you would research this you might find that we all started on the " same bus" with one driver.. Yet so many ran away from it to progress to a proper definition and to what defines them better in THREE GROUPS not two not one.. So this bus you speak of would be the wrong bus for me and by suggesting I get aboard this bus would also be suggesting WE as a whole lose over a 100 years of progress.. Unless of course I ride along to help the Trans Gender group in which I would be more than happy to do but will this properly help the group I am in and would it be represented..?

And yes Cross Dressers do tend to dress trashy ..It is about the clothes..:)

[PaulaQ]

A. Trans Sexual... We all know of this group no need for me to explain ..(** I have no problem with this lifestyle**)


Just a minor quibble - being a transsexual isn't a lifestyle. To my mind lifestyle implies choice, and while I guess transsexuals have a choice - it's often two really bad choices:
"transition ... or die."
Even in less drastic cases it's:
"transition ... or live in misery."
It's not really much of a choice.


3. Cross Dresser.. A Cross Dresser has no gender identity issues , they are not dressing to act out desires of being the opposite sex they were born as..

How does this in anyway place them under a " Trans Gender " umbrella?

I think the grouping is entirely appropriate. You may identify as male - which is great, congrats, your life is WAAAAY simpler. I mean that, you got the most minor variant of our condition. You need no crazy medical support. You aren't going to go nuts from this, you will just be unhappy if you can't express cross gender activity in the form of cross dressing.

I'll be very surprised if this turns out to be an entirely different phenomenon biologically than TG / TS. It seems to me much simpler to explain if it's a question of to what extent your brain structure was feminized in utero. In your case, it is probably quite minor, but it's there, because you dress. The really telling things to me are:
1. Most CDs can't quit. They can try - but they are unhappy, and ultimately fail.
2. They express cross gender behavior, in the form of dressing. Sure, they are able to function and identify as men, but if they don't CD every once and a while to some extent, they are at least uncomfortable.
I think the focus on the sexual nature of CDing for many is probably kind of taken the wrong way. I think the feminine part of you, NEEDS expression, and in my opinion, using your sexuality to get you to do it is a POWERFUL tool for it to do so.

I know in my case, my gender identity felt like it was literally trying to CLAW it's way out of my skull, and I've heard others describe this. I've heard CDs on this forum use VERY similar descriptions (... it came back with a vengeance...).

And really, I don't see how someone who's wearing stuff because it's socially associated with females can say "I don't have any gender identity issues." I think you do - they are just minor, and mostly don't screw up your function in normal life. Like I said - congrats - that's awesome.

Where's the scientific evidence that you are fundamentally different - and by that I mean biologically? This seems to just involve a lot of arm-waving, and a desire to not be associated with a really difficult and scary condition.

BTW, I'm fully willing to admit that I may have this all wrong. There may be some different underlying mechanism that explains a similar compulsion between CD and TG / TS individuals towards some form of cross gender behavior. But even if they are different enough to categorize differently, I bet they are related closely enough that an unbrella term like "Transgender" is appropriate.

On the subject of buses - I hate to tell you, but you are really on the LGBT bus. And you better learn to like it, because the "L's and G'S" do all the heavy lifting. We are a tiny minority, CDs, TS, GQ, GF, whatever. If the L's and G's decide to throw us under the bus because they want to seem more normal to the majority hetero population, we're screwed - all of us - because we are EASY targets for prejudice.

I'm completely serious about this - if it weren't for the graciousness of groups that are largely populated by lesbians and gays, we would have VERY little visibility, and almost NO ONE would give a crap about us. Be grateful. Because in our lifetimes, lesbians and gays will be largely accepted socially. Us? Even CDs? No freaking way.

[Lucy_Bella]

Just a minor quibble - being a transsexual isn't a lifestyle. To my mind lifestyle implies choice, and while I guess transsexuals have a choice - it's often two really bad choices:
"transition ... or die."
Even in less drastic cases it's:
"transition ... or live in misery."
It's not really much of a choice.

That's why I use tags..lol and I even get them wrong...That's why in a sense I am suggesting the 3 groups...It is so easy to offend with out knowing because of the differences on what I call the "Crossdressing Spectrum" I can no longer justify using the "Gender Spectrum" ..I am not T.S. so how do I know? I learn our differences and not assume..

This is in no way a contest for me...I don't want a prize I just want to express we can not assume we are are the same because we all have some things in common.. As you can see how easy it is for me to say what could be harmful things to you because I assume we all fall under the same crossdressing spectrum it was a miss understanding.. ..



I think the grouping is entirely appropriate. You may identify as male - which is great, congrats, your life is WAAAAY simpler. I mean that, you got the most minor variant of our condition. You need no crazy medical support. You aren't going to go nuts from this, you will just be unhappy if you can't express cross gender activity in the form of cross dressing.

I know you find this very hard to understand because of what drives you to express your urges to what is your true sex.. But just a Cross Dresser has no gender issues. I ( we) dress for the Feminine attraction it is why we desire sexy under garments ..It can grow just as crossdressing does for all spectrum's..I. (we ) will find feminine attractions to beautiful feminine wigs on ourselves ,long eye lashes ..Its the attraction to Femininity not being feminine..


I'll be very surprised if this turns out to be an entirely different phenomenon biologically than TG / TS. It seems to me much simpler to explain if it's a question of to what extent your brain structure was feminized in utero. In your case, it is probably quite minor, but it's there, because you dress. The really telling things to me are:
1. Most CDs can't quit. They can try - but they are unhappy, and ultimately fail.
2. They express cross gender behavior, in the form of dressing. Sure, they are able to function and identify as men, but if they don't CD every once and a while to some extent, they are at least uncomfortable.
I think the focus on the sexual nature of CDing for many is probably kind of taken the wrong way. I think the feminine part of you, NEEDS expression, and in my opinion, using your sexuality to get you to do it is a POWERFUL tool for it to do so..

I'm in no way a professional other than living it.. Some people are born with fetishes I do not claim its a fetish but it would be the closet way to explain the urges..




Where's the scientific evidence that you are fundamentally different - and by that I mean biologically? This seems to just involve a lot of arm-waving, and a desire to not be associated with a really difficult and scary condition.

BTW, I'm fully willing to admit that I may have this all wrong. There may be some different underlying mechanism that explains a similar compulsion between CD and TG / TS individuals towards some form of cross gender behavior. But even if they are different enough to categorize differently, I bet they are related closely enough that an unbrella term like "Transgender" is appropriate. The Evidence is out there and has been for many years.. T.S.s and T.G.s are more likely to be out and about ..Like you said the claw you have is expressed in a different manner ..Cross Dressers having the same claw effect, but find dressing a private matter they tend to stay happier in the closet so studies are hard to find a true Cross Dresser to take part.. I have had many P.M.s from members of this site who totally agree with me ..We are out there ..


On the subject of buses - I hate to tell you, but you are really on the LGBT bus. And you better learn to like it, because the "L's and G'S" do all the heavy lifting. We are a tiny minority, CDs, TS, GQ, GF, whatever. If the L's and G's decide to throw us under the bus because they want to seem more normal to the majority hetero population, we're screwed - all of us - because we are EASY targets for prejudice.

I'm completely serious about this - if it weren't for the graciousness of groups that are largely populated by lesbians and gays, we would have VERY little visibility, and almost NO ONE would give a crap about us. Be grateful. Because in our lifetimes, lesbians and gays will be largely accepted socially. Us? Even CDs? No freaking way.
I agree with you on this one..Like I said most Cross Dressers are happy keeping their dressing private.. I think the biggest issues with the Cross Dresser is acceptance from the public , friends and family ..

[PaulaQ]

@ Lucy - hey, you didn't offend me or anything, I know your heart is in the right place.

And I definitely respect your opinion, and you, and am happy to agree to disagree. It's not a contest, and the science on this stuff sucks, so it'll be a while before we can say how alike or different we are with anything like certainty. So really, your guess is as good as mine, and I would not argue with your feelings and experience - that carries a lot of weight.

Thanks for the civil discussion!

[Lucy_Bella]

Paula,

It's been a pleasure debating with you as well..I enjoy civil debating and I enjoy intelligence as well over the subject matter, I to learn in debating ..Thank you again and as for the T.S. spectrum ..I wish you the best in finding happiness ..It's out there continue researching your self you will reach your goal ..I have found satisfaction stepping into and placing myself through out most of the spectrum ..I think I have found my place, my un answered questions and my happiness..

[Jacqueline Winona]

On the subject of buses - I hate to tell you, but you are really on the LGBT bus. And you better learn to like it, because the "L's and G'S" do all the heavy lifting. We are a tiny minority, CDs, TS, GQ, GF, whatever. If the L's and G's decide to throw us under the bus because they want to seem more normal to the majority hetero population, we're screwed - all of us - because we are EASY targets for prejudice.

I'm completely serious about this - if it weren't for the graciousness of groups that are largely populated by lesbians and gays, we would have VERY little visibility, and almost NO ONE would give a crap about us. Be grateful. Because in our lifetimes, lesbians and gays will be largely accepted socially. Us? Even CDs? No freaking way.[/QUOTE]

While I agree with the second paragraph, I don't agree on the first paragraph. I don't think the G&L community really thinks of heterosexual cross dressers when they think of the T in LGBT, and I know lots of people in that community. The T to them is for those who identify as transsexual, or choose to live their lives in the opposite gender, not those who dress up once in a while. And while the LGBT community can count me as an ally for their cause, I don't relate to their community as a member. This is just my opinion, but I think more hetero CD's are loners by choice than part of any community, we may not live on the island of misfit toys but we're not rallying around any flags.

[Beverley Sims]

Progress is inevitable but you can restrict it by going at your own pace.

[Lorileah]

Black and white ...they're both in the same Order (Carnivora). Did they move the Ursine? Last I saw they were OMNIvores...but then again, things do change with time.
Dogs are Family Canidae, bears are Family Ursidae. From an evolutionary standpoint, though, they are considered closely related. really? like maybe pigs are related too?
Wasn't an argument it was a point and yes they are all mammals just as we are Human.. It's funny how an Analogy good or bad can relate to a point... That point BTW was the comparison of the two although not family they are closely related but have two different labels ..Carnivora ( umbrella crossdressing in action) Family (Canidae Cross Dresser vs Ursidae Trans Gender).. See how the logic can suck ? Your reply came back as if I had no clue to what I was talking about " not even close".. close enough for a horse shoe I guess. Still not getting your point though...very very wide brush you are using here.



You would be amazed by who.. Trust me I have had plenty of unacceptable comments my direction and yes from members of this site..That's why I always use tags! Again broad brush. Some ONE steps on your toe and the whole world is at fault?

How do you know? Are you a CDer or you grouping the CDer's under the mythical umbrella? Let me re say this.. You can be a T.S. and a TG and crossdress of course you are crossdressing... But you can not be a T.S. or a T.G. and be JUST a "Cross Dresser".. that is very selective of you. Again, I call this BS
I know you will not understand that comment because you feel that" just a Cross Dresser" is not a separate group.. Of course it is a group, a group that is under the transgender umbrella. But les't quit this. I said, I don't really care if you don't want to be with "us" or not. Inm every minority there are those who think they are different than the rest and don't need the help or protection or even the camaraderie...so I get that.

Don't march in our parade, don't try and stop it either. Your being in the group would just make it stronger. Your staying outside the group does not change anything except you feel excluded.







Yet we re-define another definition to better fit our own? Yes you did.
This gets us no where as it seems .. no it doesn't
The point was subscribing a bad treatment could cause us harm .. That means one group snubbed or combined into another would cause harm ..There are reasons why there are three groups ...Treatment... :idontknow: what does that mean? You want special treatment?
If I relate myself to only one gender, what business would I have seeing a gender specialist like my marriage counselor recommended ?.. Hearing a professional say that to me in front of my ex wife brought her to tears.. It caused harm.. and really showed how uneducated the professional was.






A. Trans Sexual... We all know of this group no need for me to explain ..(** I have no problem with this lifestyle**) evidently you do because it is not a lifestyle. But then we must have different dictionaries.




3. Cross Dresser.. A Cross Dresser has no gender identity issues :facepalm: really? You do use a broad brush don't you? Maybe in this case you should just say YOU don't. ,
they are not dressing to act out desires of being the opposite sex they were born as.. How does this in anyway place them under a " Trans Gender " umbrella? trans as in crossing as in wearing the clothing attributed to the opposite gender no matter HOW the feel they are. I

And yes Cross Dressers do tend to dress trashy ..It is about the clothes..:) you are so wrong.....so so wrong.

And I am done with you and this discussion.

[Erica2Sweet]

Sherry, when I said that it's not "just about the clothes", I was not implying that everyone is transsexual. Of course they're not ... transsexualism is quite rare. But it is still more than "just about the clothes". ... else why all the hiding? When people hide things it is because the things they are hiding are hugely important to them which indicates a great deal more than "just about the clothes" :p

With regard to crossdressing, stating "its just about the clothes" is either not realizing that there is more at play mentally/emotionally, or refusing to accept that fact. As humans everything we experience and that occupies space in our lives, that we have developed an attachment to on some level has specific motivating factors that we connect to it, or else we wouldn't feel any sort of attachment to those things. To say otherwise is denying human nature. ;)

[Wildaboutheels]

Helllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllloooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

Is anyone home?

I have no idea because I have never talked to one....

Still, it's easy to imagine that very few FtM CDers use MEN'S clothes to MASTURBATE??? Actually it's very easy to reach a conclusion that MtFs outnumber FtMs by a huge margin if one goes by the easily available data available for the world to see. [for anyone here willing to live and die by the web]

ANYone who ever bothers to read and pay attention here at these Forums, realizes that the VAST MAJORITY of MtF CDers will have [at the very least] at some time in the past, used FEMALE items to MASTURBATE. It likely WAS the start for many.

It's NOT complicated. Really it's not.

Assuming anything about MtFs who have EVER done this is pretty foolish. That's every bit as silly as assuming folks are married or living together just because they are Dating or have a boyfriend or girlfriend. It's obvious, that many here are somewhat relieved or feel less guilty because they have "progressed" and now dress "fully" or more completely as a woman and lots of "more mature" members no longer have any/much sex drive. Well gee, and they now wear more refined/more "mature"/less hookerish stuff and likely have a lot less skin showing. More comfortable stuff. Imagine that. Whodathunkit. But SOME of the "thrill" is still there. For SOME people.

Pavlovian behavior. NOT complicated.

It's always the Forum Dinos who mention all those "other" CD sites. The "bad" ones that hopefully GGs won't go to and get the wrong idea about "good" CDers.

[PaulaQ]

Pavlovian behavior. NOT complicated.


If it's pavlovian behavior, then why did the electroconvulsive therapy that they used to use on CD's and TG folks FAIL? That's right - because it's not pavlovian behavior.

A brief example of why you want to be on the LGBT bus:
http://now.msn.com/russia-homosexual-propaganda-law-passed-by-parliament

By some interpretations of this law, you are a criminal in Russia if a minor sees you.

[ReineD]

Pavlovian behavior. NOT complicated.

Are you referring strictly to yourself or is this an attempt to describe the majority here?

It's more complicated than Pavlov's experiment. Humans are more complex than dogs who salivate. Yes, most CDers will say that it started sexually for them as teenagers. They don't elaborate, but knowing what I know of male libido, the sexual aspect can last well into adult years depending on the person. And again from what I've read here over the years, it is not uncommon for the sexual aspect to ebb or entirely go away, again based on the person and perhaps their age.

But, something else happens after several or more years of having it be sexual. All the dopamine released during the sexual years created an overload on the receptors which lessened the pleasure response. This explains the need to ramp it up for most CDers, providing they don't have too many barriers to expressing femininity. And eventually new neural connections are made at the synapses that literally rewire the brain. And in my opinion, this is why I think there are so many people who believe late in life that they may have become transsexual. They know it is no longer sexual, yet they feel as if it is a permanent part of them. It is, since they cannot live without expressing their feminine selves.

Disclaimer: I am not saying this is the motive for all TSs who want to transition. There are people who were born TS. This is a side note, but if someone was not born TS and they transition, they will be no more happy living as a female than they were living as a male. They cannot switch from blue to red (see below), they must find a way to live purple.

If you have two separate dishes holding paint, one with blue and one with red and you mix them in a third dish, this creates purple. The purple that you end up with is no different than the tube of purple paint that you've bought at the store, even though the separate blue and red colors were separate for a much longer time than the purple paint that you bought at the store. You've permanently changed the color properties of the separate red and blue paints.

[Lucy_Bella]

Again broad brush.


Yes you did. no it doesn't :idontknow: what does that mean? You want special treatment?





evidently you do because it is not a lifestyle. But then we must have different dictionaries.



:facepalm: really? You do use a broad brush don't you? Maybe in this case you should just say YOU don't. , trans as in crossing as in wearing the clothing attributed to the opposite gender no matter HOW the feel they are. I
you are so wrong.....so so wrong.

And I am done with you and this discussion.


How to understand the difference between a Trans Gender and a Cross Dresser..


1.Understand what transgender means: It is a state of being in which the apparent or biological gender (usually determined at birth) does not match the person's subjective gender -- that is, the gender the person identifies as. While transgender people usually have distinct female or male genitalia and matching chromosomes, even as young children they "know" that they are in bodies that do not match their subjective gender identification. For example, a woman who identifies as male and wears male apparel may be referred to as transgender.


2.Know that cross-dressing is the act of wearing clothing typically associated with the opposite sex. Cross-dressers are not necessarily transgender, although in the strictest sense a pre-operative transgender person presenting as the opposite sex is technically cross-dressing. Cross-dressers do not necessarily identify as a gender other than their biological gender. To use this term to refer to a transgender person is considered offensive.

[PaulaQ]

And in my opinion, this is why I think there are so many people who believe late in life that they may have become transsexual. They know it is no longer sexual, yet they feel as if it is a permanent part of them. It is, since they cannot live without expressing their feminine selves.

When I was young, and some of the symptoms that should've tipped people off to really look at my mental state began to present themselves, Harry Benjamin's book was 3 years old. NONE of the doctors I saw likely knew of it, and they sure as hell didn't study this stuff in school. Doctors that graduated in the 80's probably had a chance of learning something about TG.

So why isn't "we were ignored by a medical establishment that didn't know much about us, and frankly didn't give a shit" a better explanation? Because until we manage to diagnose ourselves, we are left to flounder around in misery.

Sure, some kids transitioned young. They were in the right place, with the right parents. Most of the rest of us who are older were at the wrong place, at the wrong time. TEXAS, for example, was the wrong place for a really long time, and arguably still is.

The idea that a condition that essentially requires self-diagnosis is somehow treated as less legitmate if you don't manage to figure it out for yourself until you are older offends me. It doesn't surprise me though - I knew I was going to get screwed on this my whole life - when I reported hallucinating as a child and they wrote it off as "oh what an imagination!" Well, it still happens today when I'm in the throes of really bad GD induced anxiety...

[ReineD]

Lucie, to simplify the argument between you are Lorileah, Lori is saying that CDs fall under the TG umbrella. You say that they do not.

This is because both you and Lori have different definitions for the term "transgender" (just about everyone has their own personal definition for this largely ambiguous term).

Lori is looking at it the way that clinicians look at it, which is an umbrella term for anyone who is not "cis": the non-fetish CDers, the people who identify as TG (in the middle), and the TSs. Note: "cis" means "on the same side of". This describes someone who has no gender incongruity which means at the least, no desire to express a gender other than their birth sex unless it is pure fetish. Admittedly, if it is fetish, then it can be "just about the clothes". Fetish means having a devotion to an object. It may or may not be sexual, or it may be sexual to different degrees. And whether it is pure fetish or not is very difficult to measure, because we are complex individuals and we do have the ability to rewire our brains through our actions ... hence the continual disagreements as to whether CDers belong under the TG umbrella or not.

You are saying that transgender is it's very own gender label, which is someone who is not transsexual (will not transition), yet who is someone that expresses a gender for deeper reasons than just liking the clothes or for sexual reasons.

So, in a sense you are both right. There are some people who dress for pure fetish reasons (to various degrees of sexual release) and for whom this is not gender related. But, if they do find comfort in the expression of a feminine self, or a sense of relief even if they refuse to step outside their closets dressed, then they do have an element of gender expression that is above and beyond the pure fetish, which again, is difficult to measure since there are so many variables to measuring this, plus these things tend to change even if slightly over a lifetime.

I would say though, that the majority of the people who are members here, who enjoy looking like women, dressing like women, calling each other by female names, acting like women as much as possible in the forums, do indeed do this for larger reasons than pure fetish, even if it started out that way.


... everyone except you and Wilde and a few others, that is. :D

Oh, and TSs don't consider themselves to be under the TG umbrella either. This is another debate in a different part of this forum, since there are different levels of transexualism too.


The idea that a condition that essentially requires self-diagnosis is somehow treated as less legitmate if you don't manage to figure it out for yourself until you are older offends me.

Did you see what I said after my words that you quoted?



Disclaimer: I am not saying this is the motive for all TSs who want to transition. There are people who were born TS.

[PaulaQ]

I did see that, Reine. I reject it completely. The evidence to support big differences in TS based on transition age and sexual orientation is pretty ambiguous and makes Blanchard and Lawrence look wrong. They have some good observations, and I bet there is something useful from them. But theire basic theories don't stand up very well - although the evidence for all this stuff is TERRIBLE.

As for TG people - pfffft - there's no evidence about them AFAIK. Medicine doesn't have a product to sell them so they don't give a shit.

I think these ideas are a theory in search of a problem. I think the notion that we all aren't "born this way" is quite questionable. I think it has to stem from a medical industry who's oath switched from "do no harm" to "sell sell sell," followed by "oh shit, cover yer ass!" I don't mean that all medical professionals are like this - but it is SOP in the industry.

So no, I reject blaming the patient ENTIRELY by a profession that has, with rare and heroic exceptions, grotesquely and negligently ignored a population because we're socially shunned.

If you would like, I can tell you other stories from my childhood of my experiences early in life with the medical industry. Warning - you'll cry.

I am open to the idea that there are indeed differences between populations of TG / TS individuals. The evidence to categorize them though is lacking. Same way there are differences between say Type I and Type II diabetics. There are physiological differences in those cases. But I think the record here is just too murky to draw many conclusions without hard biological evidence.


This is a side note, but if someone was not born TS and they transition, they will be no more happy living as a female than they were living as a male. They cannot switch from blue to red (see below), they must find a way to live purple.

I've never read a single study that supported this. Do you have anything but annecdotal evidence? Do you think the WPATH protocols are insufficient to prevent this - is that your assertion? Because this is PRECISELY what the system is designed to prevent. How would you modify the system? How does someone know they were born transsexual? Not everyone remembers their childhood very clearly.

[ReineD]

I did see that, Reine. I reject it completely.

That's your prerogative. But the fact remains that for some people, the CDing is a compulsion, and compulsions do have an ability to rewire the brain. This addresses Wilde's OP. We are chemical beings. At the same time, this may not describe you, but it does describe some people. Not everyone in this community is transsexual, even if they go through phases where they believe themselves to be.

As to your comment to my blue and red analogy, I personally know people who have transitioned and who became deeply unhappy afterwards. Not everyone, but a significant few. I've even seen it happen among some members here. Transition was not the answer for them even though they were convinced that it would be, simply because they were so unhappy living under the circumstances they were in, as men. Even the WPATH recognizes the difference between transsexuals and the gender non-conforming.

To say that everyone who thinks about transitioning is a transsexual is utterly false. Again please do not take my words as being directed to you personally.

At any rate, this thread is about CDers for whom it is more than "just about the clothes" more than it is about TSs.

[PaulaQ]

Why isn't it subject to the same treatment as other compulsive disorders then? I am not saying everyone is a transsexual. I am saying the exact opposite of that. I am saying that the simplest explanation is likely that there is some common set of things that get "wired up" differently in our brains during development of everybody under the TG umbrella. The extent and areas affected probably have a great deal of impact on the degree that this affects a person.

Most compulsive disorders, by the way, have both a biological component - one must be predisposed to them, as well as typically some pscyhological trigger. Why would this be any different? My feeling that it is largely derived from physical characteristics of the brain owes to the current impossibility of "curing" CD, even using techniques and medicines developed for other compulsive disorders.

Reine, if there was a magic treatment to stop what is happening to me, I'd be on it in a new york minute.

I am asking you for EVIDENCE. You made a pretty bold statement that someone could take as an approach they should consider for the course of their condition. That is a BIG DEAL.

I'm simply saying that all of us likely have similar things going wrong in our brains, varying in extent and area of effect.

Can you see the difference in our statements? I'm simply stating an opinion - you are too, and yours comes with advice for someone that I don't think you are qualified to give. Again, if you have professional expertise in any of these fields of study, and can back this up, I will glady defer to your opinion.

[ReineD]

Why isn't it subject to the same treatment as other compulsive disorders then?

Because it is not compulsive for everyone. There are people who are born transsexual. This is what makes this so complex.


... and I'm afraid that the best evidence I could give you, would be to put 500 people in a room and conduct a thorough clinical analysis including brain imaging, plus revisit these same people, 5, 10, 15, and 20 years later and do the same thing. I can't do that. All I have is a conglomeration of everything I've seen, everything I've read, and everyone that I know both personally and in this community.

Stick around this forum for as long as I have, and talk to as many people, and I promise you that you will come to the same conclusions.

[PaulaQ]

Reine, I doubt I will reach the same conclusions as you. I've read some of the reports you link, and, in general, reach the EXACT OPPOSITE conclusion you do. I expect we will not see eye to eye on this.

And as I suspected, you don't have any evidence. I really don't think you should give clinical advice.

Probably the only thing I agree with you on is that the medical community is not very aware of TG people who aren't TS, and so they try to lump us into the same mold. The reason is that this is the only real treatment they have, and there are lots of unpleasant consequences for not going all the way. Of course, if it isn't right for you, there are lots of consequences of going all the way, which is your point.

I still don't see how you can view CD as a compulsive disorder, when it does not respond *at all* to treatments for it. Do you not think that there would be a TON of CD's on this very forum who's spouses can't accept and who's marriages are at risk who wouldn't JUMP at the chance for treatment using techniques for compulsive disorders? And yet - no treatment exists for them. Why is that? Because it's a different condition!

[ReineD]

Who is giving clinical advice? No one in this thread asked for clinical advice. This thread very generally talks about breaking down the various segments of the community.

[PaulaQ]

Who is giving clinical advice? No one in this thread asked for clinical advice. This thread very generally talks about breaking down the various segments of the community.


This is a side note, but if someone was not born TS and they transition, they will be no more happy living as a female than they were living as a male. They cannot switch from blue to red (see below), they must find a way to live purple.

The second quote sounds like advice to me. If you figured this out late in life - don't transition. If that isn't advice for someone's course of treatment, what is it then, pray tell?

And a person would know they were born TS how? Oh right - they like boys. That's what it comes down to, isn't it, in these papers?

I am not saying that transition is right for everyone. It is right for a rather small group - the problem is it's all modern medicine has got - some form of transition. (Not necessarily SRS, but at least HRT in some cases. Often neither is needed.)

The problem is that based on everything I've read - and again the science on all this is questionable - the number of gender non-conforming folks are much smaller than the number of TS folks - at least if you factor out all them CDs.

So you are really saying there are 4 groups:
"fetish dressers" - we don't know how to define this, but we know it when we see it.
"OCD" based CD's.
Non gender conforming TGs. (GQ, GF, etc.)
"born TS"

OK, what on earth could explain all that - four different causes for highly similar behaviors?

[Lucy_Bella]

Lucie, to simplify the argument between you are Lorileah, Lori is saying that CDs fall under the TG umbrella. You say that they do not.

This is because both you and Lori have different definitions for the term "transgender" (just about everyone has their own personal definition for this largely ambiguous term).

Lori is looking at it the way that clinicians look at it, which is an umbrella term for anyone who is not "cis": the non-fetish CDers, the people who identify as TG (in the middle), and the TSs. Note: "cis" means "on the same side of". This describes someone who has no gender incongruity which means at the least, no desire to express a gender other than their birth sex unless it is pure fetish. Admittedly, if it is fetish, then it can be "just about the clothes". Fetish means having a devotion to an object. It may or may not be sexual, or it may be sexual to different degrees. And whether it is pure fetish or not is very difficult to measure, because we are complex individuals and we do have the ability to rewire our brains through our actions ... hence the continual disagreements as to whether CDers belong under the TG umbrella or not.

You are saying that transgender is it's very own gender label, which is someone who is not transsexual (will not transition), yet who is someone that expresses a gender for deeper reasons than just liking the clothes or for sexual reasons.

So, in a sense you are both right. There are some people who dress for pure fetish reasons (to various degrees of sexual release) and for whom this is not gender related. But, if they do find comfort in the expression of a feminine self, or a sense of relief even if they refuse to step outside their closets dressed, then they do have an element of gender expression that is above and beyond the pure fetish, which again, is difficult to measure since there are so many variables to measuring this, plus these things tend to change even

Thanks Reine,
I do completely understand that ..I have no issues with Lori ..I really respect her and her opinion.. I created another thread so I don't high jack this one ( sorry Wild).. It explains a bit how the confusion of the umbrella came about and why it offends the "just a Cross Dresser"..But I can see both sides of the coin ..We both have a point..

[ReineD]

The second quote sounds like advice to me. If you figured this out late in life - don't transition. If that isn't advice for someone's course of treatment, what is it then, pray tell?

It was a personal observation based on people that I know to differentiate between TS and non-TS (the group of people referred to in the OP). I repeat that it was not meant to give you, personally, or anyone else, any clinical advice, nor was it meant to describe everyone who wants to transition.

Sorry Paula, but I cannot be clearer than this.

[PaulaQ]

Sorry Paula, but I cannot be clearer than this.

I don't think you are being clear at all - but oddly enough, I believe I know what you mean, with a great deal of precision. You just don't want to spell it out, I think. Well, OK then. Ciao!

[Lucy_Bella]

There are people who were born TS. This is a side note, but if someone was not born TS and they transition, they will be no more happy living as a female than they were living as a male. They cannot switch from blue to red (see below), they must find a way to live purple.

Paula,

I believe that in Reines statement she made some what of a typo ..Instead, I am sure her thought was to remove " someone" and put into it's place "some people" I believe that this theory has some truth to it due to the transitioning process from T.G. to T.S. verses T.S.'s transitioning ..I.E. Some T.S.'s go through the T.G. phase and do not transition until they are 100 positive that they are a T.S. it can be a repeating behavioural pattern for some..

[ReineD]

Lucy, it's just a writing mechanism. Sometimes when making general statements I put things in plural while at other times it sounds better to me grammatically to put them in the singular, to represent a ficticious, faceless person ... since continually putting things in the plural can make it seem as if I'm painting everyone with the same, broad brush.

... which we all know here that we cannot do.

[Asche]

what would possess anyone to engage in behaviors that are not easily accepted in our society? Accidental exposure could threaten a job, alienate children, cause friends to keep their distance, cause issues in a marriage, etc.
What leads anyone to do anything that brings them in conflict with the status quo?

I would say it is the feeling that being true to oneself (in some way) is more important than the costs of failing to conform. Put another way: that the cost of suppressing that aspect of oneself is greater than the cost that the power structure of society imposes for expressing it.


So, why hide if it is "just about the clothes"?

I'm not hiding. And I know there are many others here who are not.


And why hang on to the right to engage in the behavior so tenaciously? If I golfed and tomorrow golfing became overwhelmingly viewed as an undesirable pastime with negative consequences for doing it, I don't think that I"d have an issue with not golfing anymore. :p
You're obviously not a true golfer :)

For real-life examples, you have only to look at those artists in the Soviet Union who got in trouble with the government. Most had no political ax to grind and had no intention of being rebels. But the need to express their vision as they saw it was more important to them than a safe existence and they suffered ostracism, loss of job, government harrassment, prison, and sometimes death for their refusal to suppress their vision. The authorities could not understand their behavior except as "counter-revolution" or insanity, which is why they got put in prison and mental hospitals.

In a way, your point of view is a lot like the view of people in the Soviet Union: you cannot comprehend how "mere clothing" could be so important to someone that he would be willing to suffer repercussions to express it, so you shoe-horn that person into some category or other that you do understand, e.g., that it is an expression of "gender" (a word whose meaning is so fluid one can use it to explain most anything.)

ReineD, we've had this discussion before, and I don't expect you to understand this time any more than you did any of the other times. It's like going to a country of people who are all tone-deaf and trying to explain why anyone would pay good money to go to a concert.

[ReineD]

What leads anyone to do anything that brings them in conflict with the status quo?

I would say it is the feeling that being true to oneself (in some way) is more important than the costs of failing to conform..

Exactly! That's why I refute Wilde's statement that it is "just about the clothes" for anyone who is not a fetish CDer and who feels the need to hide. But being 'true to oneself' can mean a lot of different things, depending on where they fall along the gender spectrum. If someone does do this strictly for fetish though, then it can certainly be just about the clothes ... for awhile.

[Asche]

You can't simply tell loved ones and friends I am Trans Gender and expect them to understand what you really are..Because being Trans Gender to them is completely different in their minds than how you see it..
Thus why "we" as a group should use the same nomenclature.
The problem with terms like "transgender" is they give the illusion of understanding something which one does not actually understand. Ultimately, "transgender" simply means "he's doing something that my buddies and I don't think male humans should be doing," usually with the implication "and he won't stop even though we tell him to." But if you put it in those terms, it becomes obvious how vague it is. If, instead, you say, "he's transgender", then you think you've defined and explained what's happening.

It's also a good way of making sure that the guy who's doing stuff you don't like is labelled as "the problem." If you say "he's doing something me and my buddies don't like," you risk that some people are going to ask the uncomfortable question, "doesn't that mean that you and your buddies are the problem?" But if you say, "he's transgender," then everyone is going to spend all their time wondering why he's "transgender" and how to cure him or how to make accommodations for his "disability," and you don't have to examine why Joe Schmo's wearing a dress gets you and your buddies so worked up.

[Asche]

Exactly! That's why I refute Wilde's statement that it is "just about the clothes" for anyone who is not a fetish CDer
How have you refuted anything? This resembles "proof by assertion" more than anything else.

And what does "fetish CDer" have to do with anything? Since "fetishes" are usually looked down on in places like CD.com, I'm guessing this is a way of dismissing those who CD in ways you don't approve of. i.e., those for whom CDing is not about expressing whatever people mean by "gender identity" -- or aren't willing to label it so.

The more I read, the less sense what you write makes. My guess is that you are making a number of assumptions and "logical inferences" that I would see as utter hogwash, but since you don't list any of them, it's only a guess.

[Lucy_Bella]

Exactly! That's why I refute Wilde's statement that it is "just about the clothes" for anyone who is not a fetish CDer and who feels the need to hide. But being 'true to oneself' can mean a lot of different things, depending on where they fall along the gender spectrum. If someone does do this strictly for fetish though, then it can certainly be just about the clothes ... for awhile.

You are correct Reine...The fetish does grow but not for the same reasons it would for a T.G. For one being a T.G. is far from a fetish ( as you know) for two like T.G.s the urges ALSO grow for fetish dressers.. Plan and simple way to put it..You do the same thing over and over again it gets boring..But the urge still needs satisfaction it never goes away.. When it gets old and the attraction is no longer there, you have to find new ways to satisfy the urge through other related methods that always return back to the original attraction in one way or the other....You spice it up a bit..

It's about the clothes but it can also grow into other realms of Feminine attraction...Like scent ( perfume ) hair or wigs but like I said it always goes back to the original attraction..

[ReineD]

It's about the clothes but it can also grow into other realms of Feminine attraction...

This is what I'm saying. It may start out as a fetish but some people change and slowly, surreptitiously, it then it becomes a part of who they are. How far this can go is individual based on too many variables to list. Paula mentioned earlier that one must have a predisposition in order to be attracted to the cross-gender (or cross-sex) expression. This is not always the case. Someone posted an interesting series of videos that explains how certain stimuli can rewire the brain of just about anyone who engages in it, if the conditions are right. The conditions are frequency and availability. Here's a link to the videos. The title of the series is "Your Brain on Porn", but the chemical processes involved are the same whether the stimuli is porn or any other feel-good behavior (video three), which fits the bill for a teenage boy who has repeated, exciting sexual experiences while he is wearing women's clothing.

The first (of six) video's audio is recently garbled but there are links to transcripts available:
http://www.yourbrainonporn.com/your-brain-on-porn-series

Here's the same speaker at a shorter Ted Talk:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSF82AwSDiU&feature=player_embedded

[busker]

Expressing cross gender behavior is a hallmark of being transgendered. You don't have to want to be a woman to be TG - you just need to act like one sometimes in some ways. It is a VERY broad definition.

The problem here is that you are defining the word with the same word. Cross gender is transgender=one in English, one in Latin. You haven't said anything here yet. The Latin prefix "trans" means "across", "beyond", "crossing" "on the other side", and this has not been met by just putting clothes on that women wear. A book is still a book whether is has wrappers, paper cover, hard cover, soft cover, vellum, linen, etc. Because I wear a skirt does not make me a woman in any sense, I haven't crossed over anything, I have no idea what makes a woman so I can't act like one--I guess I can "femulate" as in theatrical I suppose. If someone has SRS then they have actually "crossed" over, they are "trans" indeed because they no longer have male (or female) anatomy. Breasts ( and or implants) and long hair are not the hallmarks (IMO) of trans-sexual change. Some men have gynecomastia and that does not make them women by any stretch.
Cross dressers is really the better term and once a person has done the whole ball of wax, trans sexual makes some sense at least physically.
If we think of trans as something that includes a completion of the effort, that will help with a lot of confusion. People who cross dress do so for many reasons too numerous to list, so why not just leave it at that. a person who wears women's clothing is simply a cross dresser and they can further describe their involvement if they wish.
I read a German study that indicates the researchers believe that real TS is about 1% of all the people who think they are TS--so very few indeed. It is irreversible, you have to hate your genitals and some other things. We really do need to use basic words that we all agree on before there is any meaningful dialogue.
just my opinion and 2 cents worth

[Lucy_Bella]

This is what I'm saying. It may start out as a fetish but some people change and slowly, surreptitiously, it then it becomes a part of who they are. How far this can go is individual based on too many variables to list. Paula mentioned earlier that one must have a predisposition in order to be attracted to the cross-gender (or cross-sex) expression. This is not always the case.

So true and this also explains the on going conflict on sites such as this one .. I will admit my fault I tended to look at my version of Cding when I first came here for support.. I got batted around and eventually Banned from the site..So I took off my "rose colored glasses " and stopped painting people with a "wide brush" :).. I knew I was different more so than the majority of the members here for the reasons why I dressed just by reading the threads..

But I needed support and most of these members did that in a non Bias way they gave that to me.. What I did with that support was funnel out everything that didn't relate to me ( which was pretty much all of it) I went through different phases experimenting and missed a few things that I should have funneled out that could have been costly ..I still felt alone ,like a freak because I was different ..So I make my own threads to reach out to like minded people and at first, my threads were frowned on ( or I felt they were) but eventually members took less notion to them ..I think members just got use to me. I've never came here with the intent to start trouble and it's nice to see some people speak out ..Is there any problem with mutual respect here? Wild just vented for a reason and maybe for the same reasons I sometimes do ( I'm just guessing).. It doesn't have to turn into a" you cant be you cant be" kinda thread..Oh yes we can..

[Wildaboutheels]

Theres a very good reason [IMO] why the lurkers always outnumber the members here by such a lopsded ratio. The content and flavor of the vast majority of questions. If people do not want or need to contribute to anything they see posted, there is NO NEED to sign in or join. And of course the members who participate while cloaked are still easily visible as members and easily discernible.

[ReineD]

Hmmm. I always thought that a large number of lurkers were the wives spying on their husbands. lol

... and of course, there are people wanting to look at the pics. Wilde, there are fetish CDers. Plenty of them. The internet is full of sites that attract them. No one disputes this. But you'll hardly get the people who post in this forum regularly, to say they are pure fetishists. There are a few I can think of who say they are with pride (good for them, they march to the tune of their own drums). But to get most of the members here to agree with you is futile IMO because, well, that's not where most are at.

Why are YOU here? :)

[PaulaQ]

This is what I'm saying. It may start out as a fetish but some people change and slowly, surreptitiously, it then it becomes a part of who they are. How far this can go is individual based on too many variables to list. Paula mentioned earlier that one must have a predisposition in order to be attracted to the cross-gender (or cross-sex) expression. This is not always the case. Someone posted an interesting series of videos that explains how certain stimuli can rewire the brain of just about anyone who engages in it, if the conditions are right.

Reine, as a person who's recovered from the addictions of alcohol and drugs, I don't think addiction is even remotely like CD. For one thing, stopping CD doesn't make the urge go away - with recovery from addictions such as substance abuse, or even internet porn, there is a period of discomfort from withdrawal, and then as long as the user abstains from the addiction, this eventually goes away, and given proper maintenance, it is possible to control and avoid the addictive behavior. I know this - I've been doing it for 23 years.

People who CD routinely report this is NOT the case for them. The extent of their discomfort varies, but almost all report that the urges just don't go away.

For that matter, if it were that simple, there would be self-help and recovery groups that could stop this behavior for at least some. But no such groups exist, at least none that are ethical. The medical and psychological professions have COMPLETELY given up on trying to treat CD / TG / TS as an addiction - they can't crack this either.

The most daming thing that you are overlooking though, is this - why are wearing women's clothes so enticing to some men? Booze and drugs make you feel great. That's pretty much how everyone's brain is wired. Your brain is also wired to want sex. But most men are not aroused by wearing women's clothing. So why does this happen in the CD? I would assert that the most obvious answer is that there is something different about their brains.

I think you are totally reaching here, grasping at straws to prove your point. As a recovering person, I don't feel this holds any water. Given the social stigma with cross dressing, don't you think there'd be some support groups that stopped it, for at least SOME CDs? For female identifying individuals, I think the compulsions and pressures are substantially worse than for male identifying CDs.

The only people trying to treat this as an addiction are religious groups, who have a not very scientific approach, and an axe to grind.

Are you seriously suggesting that most of us are simply addicts in denial about it? Have we just not found our "Billie W" the TG equivalent of the founder of AA? I think this interpretation of cross gender expression does an enormous disservice to those who suffer from it, and it is not supported by the medical and scientific community.

Again, you compare our condition to other medical and psychological conditions that have well established treatments - that are TOTALLY ineffective on CD. If it's really related to this stuff, why don't the same treatments work? I'll tell you why - because it's something else, that's why!

[ReineD]

Paula, you're describing people for whom it is no longer a compulsion. They've switched to the dark side. :devil:

Or, they're among the 30,000 + members who've joined here and posted a few times, only to not come back.

You completely misunderstand what I'm saying. Some people are born TS. Others are born gender non-conformist. Still others start out sexually and it is so compelling that eventually it changes who they are. And last, there are others who start out sexually and it stays that way for them (see all the "other" sites on the web), or it reaches the overboard point of creating negative consequences in their lives (like the porn addicts' experiences in the videos) and they quit. We don't hear about these people because they are not here! Or rather they are, but in the form of statistics of people who no longer participate.

If someone is TS or gender non-conforming, the cross-sex or cross-gender expression is obviously not an addiction or a compulsion. If they are not TS or gender non-conforming, it can easily become a compulsion that if not arrested, can rewire their brains. And, if they feel at all constrained in terms of not feeling free to express themselves (due to their life circumstances), they may become frustrated beyond belief which might make them feel as if they can only be happy being female. This is why people need to find good gender therapists if they are considering transition.

That said, not everyone who engages in a lot of the same pleasurable activity will become obsessed by it. There are people who can eat, drink, gamble, shop, etc, without becoming compulsive about it to the point of having it impact their lives negatively.

It's complex and there is NOT just one answer that fits everyone.

[Wildaboutheels]

There IS nothing more powerful than Evolution.

THERE IS NOTHING MORE POWERFUL THAN EVOLUTION. Orgasms better be "very fun/addictively fun" because men's orgasms combined with a woman's eggs are what keep Humans on he planet.

It's EVOUTION that has made O's so incredibly easy for the vast majority of men. UNLESS they **** up their health with drugs, smoking, obesity and a laundry list of other things. Porn [not my thing] is most likely addictive because it is easily the easiest "trigger" of all to/for an O. Humans ARE animals. ALL animals will normally expend the least amount of energy possible to get what they want. Life 101.Not changing anytime soon.

Orgasms start the ball rolling for most CDers. Orgasms are "fun", easy, addictive and cost nothing more than possibly a few minutes of time. With all the overloads of Os to the brain it's no wonder that many want to hang on to those memories/associations of what clothing helped to provide in the past.. It's not a giant leap of logic.

ESPECIALLY for those "many" who say they don't know why they enjoy it and/or would quit IF they could. It's as good an explanation as any. UNLESS of course that at some time in the past they NEVER "used" the clothes to get there.

[PaulaQ]

Still others start out sexually and it is so compelling that eventually it changes who they are.

Please provide some direct evidence for this assertion. I take umbrage at thus because I know a number of members here who's spouses, usually for religious reasons, torture them to give up their addiction to CDing. This is a cruel and wrongheaded idea and I can't believe you actually think this holds any water.

How would you differentiate between a a CD addict who foolishly progresses to think they are TS, and an actual TS person? Let me answer that for you - because I already know your definition:

The addict:
- late transitioner - if only she could stay just a CD!!! Learn2like being male
- doesn't hate their penis
- gynephilic
- doesn't self diagnose until late in life
- gets sexual satisfaction at some point from CD

Of course none of this explains why, unlike internet porn addiction:
- the CD often eventually loses sexual pleasure from CD
- the CD's dress often goes from more extreme to less extreme - this is exactly the opposite behavior of internet porn addicts.

[ReineD]

Paula, we're just going around in circles. I'm trying to give you the benefit of the many types that I've met here and elsewhere, which does correlate to the various although sorely few professional opinions I've read. I really don't feel like debating this with you ad nauseam and I would like for people to respond to Wilde's OP.

If you don't want to consider what I say, that's up to you. You can tell me that I have an agenda, or I'm akin to a religious, anti-trans group, or unscientific, or that I'm grasping straws as much as you want to, it's your prerogative. :p

[Lucy_Bella]

People who CD routinely report this is NOT the case for them. The extent of their discomfort varies, but almost all report that the urges just don't go away.

For that matter, if it were that simple, there would be self-help and recovery groups that could stop this behavior for at least some. But no such groups exist, at least none that are ethical. The medical and psychological professions have COMPLETELY given up on trying to treat CD / TG / TS as an addiction - they can't crack this either.

Paula,
I think what Reine was trying to get across was ..This may not help the majority of people who are T.S. or T.G. or work for them but keep in mind ( an open mind) :).. That most people who "Just Cross Dress" are rarely part of any scientific study and there is a reason for that.. Many people who " just cross dress" are not very open about it ( many do not even tell their wives or children) they rarely seek professional help let alone take part into a scientific study ..They just prefer to remain private..This is basically the same with "Porn Addiction " (unless it's out of control like many other forms of addiction can get)..

Also we must keep in mind that the act of cross-dressing can progress to a wider place in the spectrum for example T.G. most Cders are in denial until self acceptance so if any research claims cross dressers involved it could be flawed due to the progression phases .. I.E defining what their meaning of a C.D. was and as we know there are many ..