Passing

[Paula_56]

The term "passing" is controversial here at crossdressers.com. I found a subredit that embraces the term and encourages it. What is interesting is the girls there are much younger on average.

Interesting Huh?

http://www.reddit.com/r/transpassing/search?q=transpassing&sort=relevance&restrict_sr=on&t=all

[Angela Campbell]

Interesting. I find there is a myth on here that no one passes. That is not the truth. There are some people who will never pass, and there are some who very much pass. I personally know some of each. On some people it is possible but not easy.

[iyzie]

The reddit trans community is my primary community. /r/transpassing (http://www.reddit.com/r/transpassing/) is occasionally used by crossdressers, but most of the posts are from transsexuals. The ages do skew young, but I've seen trans women in their 30s and 40s post there and get a good reaction. As a whole I don't find the reddit trans community to be elitist or age-phobic.

The reality I've found is that passing is not a binary "pass" or "fail", there is a continuum of quasi-passing states: I pass better or worse to different people, on different days, for different amounts of time (i.e. the more time they spend with me, the more certainly they know I'm trans). So the transpassing subreddit is mostly about sharing tips and giving objective feedback, as well as boosting each other's self-esteem.

[Beverley Sims]

Younger ones pass more easily as they have not formed set features yet. They still have smooth tight young skin
With older people they are starting to get lines in their face and other blemishes that age creates.

[docrobbysherry]

There r 3 categories of dressers when it comes to passing.

1. Those that could care less whether they pass or not. They go out fearlessly anyway. Some say they pass but most don't even think about it.

2. Those of us that don't pass. Most of us know it. But, there r a few dreamers out there that mistake "acceptance" or "tolerance" for passing.

3. Those very rare few who actually can and do pass. They r treated like women. Which is a completely different experience from 1. and 2. above!

[ReineD]

Interesting. I find there is a myth on here that no one passes. That is not the truth.

The pics in that thread are all of very young people, most of whom have already started HRT. They will not look as masculine at 40-50 years old like the majority of CDers here who have never been on HRT. Conversely, take anyone who is now 40-50 years old and go back in time. Put a wig and makeup on them at 20 years old and you will see that they will pass just as easily. Testosterone continues to change a man's physiognomy until middle age.

[Badtranny]

well, "passing" to me means 100%. Up close and personal.

If passing were limited to not being pointed at, then I would say I pass 99% of the time, but since my quality of life depends on not being read at all, at any time, for any reason, then my definition for passing is absolutely unattainable by any but the most exceptional Cross-dresser as well as most late transitioners.

I have not yet reached this level of realness, but I will.

[carhill2mn]

My GW friend tells me that I "pass" well. Apparently, this is true.

Recently, I attended a Celebration of Life function for her SO who died as a result of a brain tumor. While there I visited one-on-one with her aunt for at least 20 minutes. Based upon what she was saying to me I am sure that she thought I was a GW like she is.

A short time later I had a one-on-one conversation with a woman who had been my friend's best girl friend since 3rd grade. This conversation also lasted about 20 minutes. This woman knows that my GW friend has many "T" friends. As she was preparing to leave she asked my GW friend if this Carole was the one with whom she went to dinner, etc. My friend said yes, she is. This woman then said to my friend "She is a genetic female, right"? My friend told her no, she is a "T" girl/CD. This woman then said that she (I) certainly did and said correctly all of the things that a genetic female would. My friend told her that I would be very pleased to hear that!

Needless to say, I was very pleased!

[ReineD]

My GW friend tells me that I "pass" well. Apparently, this is true. !

I'm sure it is! Your avatar is lovely. :)

"Passability" is at a high during late teens and early 20s, when genetic males are fresh faced and many don't have coarse beard yet. then it begins to dip as more testosterone is produced until passability (in general) reaches an all-time low during middle age (40s, 50s). And THEN ... as testosterone begins to decrease, passability begins to rise until it reaches a high again, I'd say mid 60s, 70s, and during the 80s especially. This is because women of the same age have lost estrogen since their own middle age and so there isn't as wide a gap between male and female looks. Both men and women tend to age in a similar manner, that is with gravity. Generally speaking.

People tend to subconsciously compare the looks of similarly aged people, when deciding whether to classify someone in either the male or female camp.

[Rogina B]

well, "passing" to me means 100%. Up close and personal.

If passing were limited to not being pointed at, then I would say I pass 99% of the time, but since my quality of life depends on not being read at all, at any time, for any reason, then my definition for passing is absolutely unattainable by any but the most exceptional Cross-dresser as well as most late transitioners.

I have not yet reached this level of realness, but I will.
While I have your attention,I stated[directed at Lea] that if any out and about T is "clocked",it doesn't matter to the observer,what type of T it is...it is a "T something "to them.In most cases they may only smile..Anyway,there is no CSI cadaver table to put the girl on a further investigate what is in her panties and surmise where she may fall on the T spectrum. So,mainstream people are quick with their gendering.In reality,you being a TS in transition working to improve your questionability,is no different than an out and about non transitioner. If either one of us wants to live stealth,they have to move away and start over. Reaching for a level of realness has nothing to do with what is in anyone's panties it is a goal that can be worked on by anyone on the T spectrum.

[kimdl93]

Oh to have that young skin again! Being older, taller than average and having not extreme but definite masculine facial features...and shoulders and man hands (my this is getting depressing) I have no illusions about passing, certainly not 100percent close up, convincingly feminine passing. I suspect the same would have been substantially true in my 20s. And unattainable though passing may be in my case, I still, following Sherry's classification, can go out comfortably and elicit a minimum of attention. I value that as much for my companions as for myself.

[Jenniferathome]

well, "passing" to me means 100%. Up close and personal.

Melissa, I share your definition. And, "If passing were limited to not being pointed at...," I pass 100% of the time! So that bar is just too low. People don't point. I don't pass. I'd like to blend but I think the harsh reality is that the most I can hope for is causing confusion at first glance.

[Kandy Barr]

Ahh, to be young again. Not going to happen so we ole birds must make do with what we've got! (Which ain't much honey, but I'm still having fun!!!!!) Interesting what ReineD has to say about aging and testosterone levels dropping, thereby narrowing the gender gap, both have to deal with the sagging skin though. I was impressed with the help and support the young girls were giving each other, I think that's important whether a girl is transitioning or cding. If we don't give each other support, who will? Thanks for the link Paula, yes, it was interesting.

[AmyGaleRT]

Sherry, I'm probably in your Group #1. I've been told I pass really well, both on this site and in my group meetings, but I don't consciously focus on it when going out. I just maintain my confidence, and let whatever magic I have work. It seems to work; nobody blurts out anything in my presence to suggest otherwise...

I just wonder if I'm setting myself up for a big fall the first time someone blatantly throws it back at me and disrupts that carefully-built self-image. Yes, I know, I'm kind of expecting the worst, but there's always a first time.

- Amy

[Badtranny]

I've been told I pass really well,

I've been told that as well. It's a backhanded compliment.

I know I'm passing when people DON'T tell me how well I'm passing.

[ReineD]

I just wonder if I'm setting myself up for a big fall the first time someone blatantly throws it back at me and disrupts that carefully-built self-image. Yes, I know, I'm kind of expecting the worst, but there's always a first time.

My SO has been going out for a long time now. She's been going out about twice per week for about 5 years. To put it in context, she is just over 6' in low heels, she has her own mid-back hair, no receding hairline, her own long finger nails, and her feet and hands are a touch smaller than mine. And yes, it still hurts when an uncouth passerby makes a rude comment. The trick is to put it down to ignorance and know that most people are better behaved. :)

[happyallie]

Lately I've been coming to the conclusion "passing" is between the ears. I have worked hard on my dressing and in my mind will never "pass" until I have the confidence. So guess what I'm working on?

[noeleena]

Hi

do all of us women pass do we all look like females or women , i know many who dont , that does not mean we are not natal females it just means we have abnormal hormones that have not worked in the way they should have, & that covers a very wide spectrim for many women some because of health issues others thier body is fighting itself some are just born like myself with masculine facail features ,

yet we are still who we are , is it our looks that make us who we are , or can we look a bit deeper & find the real person the real nature of what makes us in our makeup that the person is more than how we look.

I have women friends who have & will tell me this because as women we dont all come with that female look. yes it gets to me & i have to fight it, i go through the as iv just done tonight looking at the so lovely beautyfull clothes that our Edwardian women could wear then & those i know from our group wear.

I look at them & know i'd look stupid if i wear those clothes , i dont look right its hard knowing i would love to wear some of them even be lovely makeing them ,

I just happen to be plainer than plain jane, its horibale , its very discouaging to say the least, I looked at over 100 outfits just so gorgeous, & would it be lovely to wear some you can answer that. oh well thats my night time for bed,

...noeleena...

[linda allen]

When I think of "passing", I think "distance". Can I pass at twenty feet? Ten feet? Up close? In a conversation with someone?

Personally, I'm not a transexual, I'm not trying to live as a woman, I don't shave my legs or arms, so I'm aiming to pass at twenty feet or so. As in walking down the street or through the mall. Or putting gas into my car.

My odds of passing vary with the season. Late fall, winter, and early spring, GGs are wearing hose or tights and long sleeved blouses. I can do the same. Hot weather changes everything. It's either cover up and look out of place or bare the skin and show the hair.

We all have our own goals and that's fine. We try to meet our goals and can be proud of ourselves if we do.

[Leslie Langford]

I'm sure it is! Your avatar is lovely. :)

"Passability" is at a high during late teens and early 20s, when genetic males are fresh faced and many don't have coarse beard yet. then it begins to dip as more testosterone is produced until passability (in general) reaches an all-time low during middle age (40s, 50s). And THEN ... as testosterone begins to decrease, passability begins to rise until it reaches a high again, I'd say mid 60s, 70s, and during the 80s especially. This is because women of the same age have lost estrogen since their own middle age and so there isn't as wide a gap between male and female looks. Both men and women tend to age in a similar manner, that is with gravity. Generally speaking.

People tend to subconsciously compare the looks of similarly aged people, when deciding whether to classify someone in either the male or female camp.

Reine, your comments regarding the cycle(s) of "passability" that we CDers experience are spot-on, and while I missed the boat on this in my late teens and early 20's, I began to more than make up for this in my late 50's when I started to go out in public as "Leslie" on a regular basis.

I had always had a touch of "man-boobs" as I was never the skinny type, and my hips and butt tend to be a bit on the fuller side compared with most men's. Consequently, women's clothes always fit me quite well and it was never a problem to find something that I would look good in. My facial structure was also always somewhat middle of-the road, so I don't think that I necessarily scream "man in a dress!" when in "Leslie" mode. Of course, judicious application of make up is certainly my friend in this regard.

But my biggest impediment over the years when it came to going out in public had been my dark and heavy beard, which has thankfully turned almost entirely gray in the meantime and is now far, far easier to cover up. And that was the trigger for me to finally venture out into the big, bad world en femme. I can now be out and about for up to 12 hours at a stretch without showing any perceptible signs of wear and tear as long as I touch up my make up occasionally. Since my skin has gotten softer and less elastic as well during that time (O.K., O.K. - more wrinkled! ;) ), it has also taken on certain attributes normally associated with the female face.

Yes, declining testosterone levels have undoubtedly played a part in all this, and in most instances, that particular male hormone is not the crossdresser's friend. But the flip side is that we have also been spared the ravages that estrogen - or more precisely - the lack of it can cause, and which is typically associated with menopause. We CDer's are not normally afflicted with cellulite, varicose veins, underarm "bat-wings", drooping breasts, expanding backsides, or bunions etc. - things that my wife along with millions of other GG's incessantly obsess over.

I actually wonder sometimes if we are barking up the wrong tree when we worry so much about our heights, "manly" faces, wide shoulders, large hands and feet, or deep voices when it comes to our passability challenges. GG's have antennas that are far more finely-tuned to the subtleties of feminine appearance, comportment, and demeanor than we often realize, and I would submit that some of the things (or lack thereof) that I have listed above would register just as prominently on their radar screens when compared with what we normally worry about when it comes to assessing our own "passability"...

[CassandraSmith]

There r 3 categories of dressers when it comes to passing.

1. Those that could care less whether they pass or not. They go out fearlessly anyway. Some say they pass but most don't even think about it.

2. Those of us that don't pass. Most of us know it. But, there r a few dreamers out there that mistake "acceptance" or "tolerance" for passing.

3. Those very rare few who actually can and do pass. They r treated like women. Which is a completely different experience from 1. and 2. above!

I agree. To me, passing is more about the balance between how much attention you're attire generates vs. the degree to which you can be mistaken for a female. The male psyche is very tuned to the subties of femininity and I for one, can spot a female form hundreds of yards away especially when I was younger. It's almost like an art in that I can imagine the fertility of the woman somewhat or see into the fertility because that's how I'm wired when I'm in guy mode. I think that the degree to which a CDer is physically attractive can make passing harder because it invites deep scrutiny. I've been noticing that frumpy outfits on women tend to make me less discerning. It would be interesting to do some sort of correleational research on this huh?

[Jodi]

A picture can only tell us so much about passibility. The true measure of how we are perceived by others as women is how we move, carry ourselves, our gestures, and our facial expression.

Last weekend, I was out to an event accompanied by 11 other cd's. It was a boat dinner cruise on Lake Erie. As my friend and I were sitting waiting for the others to arrive, we noted two or our group approaching us. Lookswise, they looked great. Dressed appropriately with great makeup and hair. They both walked and moved like a couple of NFL linebackers. Looked great? Yes. Passible? Not even close.

My point is that a picture is just a little portion of how we would pass. The rest of it is getting out there and acting the part, which very few of us can really do.

Jodi

[Laura28]

Jodi,

I agree, my wife and i were just taliking about, we are going to Vegas and there is a CD contest at Dink and Drag sunday nights so i said what do you think? she said no way you would not pass, of course the look on my face said it all and she quickly said. you look good dressed but you need a lot of practice on the mannerisms and the walk, she then told me to practice, practice , did i say i love my wife ?

[Chickhe]

Passing is not a dirty word. I think some hard working people get bent out of shape when someone else claims they pass with no effort at all. The problem with all of this it that it is subjective, it is the person's own confidence or lack of it that determines what they believe. A lot of TS people are way too critical and a lot of CDers are way too excited when they feel like they passed for a short time. Its just apples and oranges, two meanings of the same word. Way too much energy spent debating it.

[kathtx]

well, "passing" to me means 100%. Up close and personal.

If passing were limited to not being pointed at, then I would say I pass 99% of the time, but since my quality of life depends on not being read at all, at any time, for any reason, then my definition for passing is absolutely unattainable by any but the most exceptional Cross-dresser as well as most late transitioners.

I have not yet reached this level of realness, but I will.

Melissa, please don't take this as disagreement or criticism, but could I ask why you feel like your "quality of life depends on not being read at all, at any time, for any reason"? For me it's been the opposite experience; it was liberating to realize that my quality of life didn't depend on passing, and that as long as I'm treated with respect I don't care if I'm read. Not that I don't try to blend as well as I can, just that I don't worry so much about knowing I won't reach an unattainable goal. My friends and lovers will know I'm trans anyway, and while I'd love for every random stranger I meet to think I'm a GG, if they don't it's no big deal as long as they treat me nicely (and they nearly always do).

I'm part-time and can and do fall back to male drag when the effort to look and feel presentable seems too much, so maybe it's just that I'm only outwardly femme when I'm already feeling self-confident and ready to take ups and downs of passing and acceptance as they come.

I'm just curious why we see it so differently.

[Badtranny]

I'm part-time and can and do fall back to male drag when the effort to look and feel presentable seems too much, so maybe it's just that I'm only outwardly femme when I'm already feeling self-confident and ready to take ups and downs of passing and acceptance as they come.

No offense but Part-time is a piece of cake. You wanna test your pass-ability? Don't go to the mall, go to a Scope Review meeting on a large construction project. Meet a bunch of new people who you need to take you seriously less you get dismissed as unprofessional. When I talk about my quality of life, I mean my WHOLE life. What you people call passing is literally kids stuff when you compare it to what life is like for the transitioner.[/QUOTE]

[Claire Cook]

When I talk about my quality of life, I mean my WHOLE life. What you people call passing is literally kids stuff when you compare it to what life is like for the transitioner.

Melissa has it right on. Those of us who are not transitioning or full-time really don't know what it is like. Our worries about "passing" -- whatever that means -- are really minor compared to they go / have gone through.

[alesha_cd]

I'm with Chickie on this. I've come to realize over the past few days that some people are way too sensitive when it comes to the topic if passing; getting all caught up in the semantics. I've also noticed that this forum is no different than other online forums in that there are opinions on certain topics which vary greatly and it's mind boggling at times how adamantly opposed some people can be.

For Melissa, passing is her whole life. For the average CDer, passing might be a fun day out that happens once in awhile. Passing for Melissa is not the same as passing for most of us, but it still means a lot to those of us who want to pass at the level we desire - again the semantics come into play here as to what passing is. In my opinion, my degree of passing that fulfills my desires should not be chuckled upon or looked at as "kids stuff". In the same respect, no one should dismiss Melissa's desire to pass at the level she wants/needs to pass in her chosen lifestyle. Anyone could very easily dismiss Melissa's desired degree of passing, or for that matter her chosen lifestyle, as "inappropriate" or "wrong". Is that a good thing? Of course not. It's called respect -- something we all clamor about and want from society for ourselves, yet we can't seem to give it to one another when it comes to this topic.

The bottom line is we all choose to present as a female in some way whether that's full time, part time, or a few days out of the year. But our desired degrees of passing (for those who have the desire) vary greatly. Instead of nit-picking about what passing is or isn't, why can't we simply lift one another up and discuss our experiences and what we feel helps us all pass? We seem to blow "sunshine" (to quote another forum member) up one another's skirts on some topics, yet the daggers come out on this one. I don't get it.

[arbon]

Its interesting that the younger people are embracing the term as they are, I would think there would be less emphasis on passing with them as there so much more acceptance today.

Personally I have come to really dislike the term. I'm not trying to pass myself off as something I am not. I am the woman I am.

And I am really irritated when someone tells me I pass, or that I look like a real woman.

I know that I am visibly trans, people will figure it out. But I have to make my life work around that - buying groceries, at work, with clients, at my daughters school, when I do volunteer stuff, church, everywhere in my life.

I don't have the looks or the money to get the looks, so I have to work with what I do have. It is very important that I have confidence in myself and in my identity, that is the biggest asset I have in order to be taken seriously.

[Aly Cat]

Personally, ive never really had the full makeover to even see if i COULD pass or not. So i basically just fall into the category of going out and enjoying myself regardless of passability. Throughout my life, i have always been on the edge with gothic club and other alternative styles that the general public frowns upon. Basically, if someone sees me, i want them to see me, not a crossdresser or someone trying to be something im not. If they have thoughts like...that dudes a crossdresser or something like that, it wouldnt bother me because id rather them think that than....look at that total drag queen. Now, not to bash on DQs. Over the top makeup and flamboyant outfits would be super fun, but you have to be in the right venue for that. I wouldnt want to go like that to olive garden or something like that. Then again, knowing that im not going to pass, i dress appropriately for the venue that im in. If i went to olive garden, i probably wouldnt be dressed in womens clothes unless i was going there with a TG group or something like that. Strength in numbers. I enjoy what i do and dont really care what strangers ill never see again think of me. The only persons opinions i value are those closest to me like my wife and parents. (Parents dont know, wife does.) Between the wifes lack of acceptance and my parents lack of knowledge, that is the only reason i dont dress all the time or in public. My parents are neighbors so even just going outside in my yard dressed would be dangerous since im not out to them.

[Rogina B]

I know that I am visibly trans, people will figure it out.

I don't have the looks or the money to get the looks, so I have to work with what I do have. It is very important that I have confidence in myself and in my identity, that is the biggest asset I have in order to be taken seriously.
And that is what is most important.Observant people can get the sense that a woman isn't a GG but they have no reason to take issue with it if the entire presentation makes sense.I do think it is extra hard for transitioners that are physically out of the norm of GG's to not get read.It won't be an issue if everything else matches up to the expected. My opinion,anyway.

[Badtranny]

I do think it is extra hard for transitioners that are physically out of the norm of GG's to not get read.It won't be an issue if everything else matches up to the expected. My opinion,anyway.

You're right. It is extremely difficult to overcome being read like a neon sign. It takes a level of commitment and effort that is beyond the limits of most people's endurance. People who are transitioning have a good reason to be motivated towards that end, because NOT passing or NEVER passing just makes a tough situation tougher. There are those that will never pass, and there are those that pass on day two. Somewhere in the middle is where most of us fight our battles.

Let me say again that passing in my opinion, means sitting in a meeting with new clients for a couple of hours of planning and negotiation and having no one look twice at you. That's the Gold standard, and the only thing that I will settle for in my quest for perfection. Some want to be beautiful, I just want to be real. ...or at least look it.

Doubters only fuel me.

[Rogina B]

Just curious Melissa,is being seen as a woman and going about your life as a woman the more realistic goal?As I see it,that is different than standing up to close scrutiny and being accepted with no doubt as a genetic woman.The transitioned women that aren't petite and had a lot of feminizing cosmetic surgery,often look like someone that has had too much surgery[Joan Rivers]for example.This is real in the flesh,standing beside her,type observations. There is only so much you can go before it defeats itself by being too much. And in certain situations[your business world] too much might be more obvious than not so much work as it really depends on who is judging you during your business dialog.

[Badtranny]

The transitioned women that aren't petite and had a lot of feminizing cosmetic surgery,often look like someone that has had too much surgery.

True. There are some girls who will always have problems because they just took a bad roll of the genetic dice. What you are describing above though is BAD cosmetic surgery. I'm going back to Dr Cardenas in just a couple of weeks for some follow up work and I'm not concerned one tiny bit about the Joan Rivers look because he is artfully subtle. Some would say (and I was one of them) TOO subtle, but there is very little danger of looking like a bad example.

I am motivated for what we in the Tech industry call "5 nines", and I understand that not everyone shares that motivation. It's cool. We all have our own way of turning the throttle.

[Rogina B]

I am all for it and it can't be as hard as the last one...after all,it's only "tweaking" your look! Wonder how much more shi# at work you'll take from doing that...hope they grow out of it!

[Beverley Sims]

The attainable goal in passing is when you have stopped worrying about it and have other socialy interactive things on your mind like enjoying the company of your friends and what your future has in store for you tomorrow.

[kathtx]

No offense but Part-time is a piece of cake. You wanna test your pass-ability? Don't go to the mall, go to a Scope Review meeting on a large construction project. Meet a bunch of new people who you need to take you seriously less you get dismissed as unprofessional. When I talk about my quality of life, I mean my WHOLE life. What you people call passing is literally kids stuff when you compare it to what life is like for the transitioner.

No offense taken at the statement that part-time is cake compared to full-time. Of course part-time is infinitely easier. Some offense taken at the suggestion part-time is all about trips to the mall and at the "you people" phrase. Had you said "what you call passing..." you'd have at least been directing the comment at *me*, which I can handle, instead of extending to all part timers with a phrase that's often used in a dismissive way. But hey, I'm around here enough to expect any reply from badtranny to contain at least 30% snark by volume, so I'm cool.

But some *transitioners* get "read" regularly, get occasional double-takes and stares, yet still have a high quality of life and go to professional meetings, give presentations, and so on. I was asking why you felt you needed 100% no-read when others, whether part-time or full-time, don't.


I am motivated for what we in the Tech industry call "5 nines", and I understand that not everyone shares that motivation. It's cool. We all have our own way of turning the throttle.

That answers my question. Thank you.

[Badtranny]

But hey, I'm around here enough to expect any reply from badtranny to contain at least 30% snark by volume, so I'm cool.

lol

this has just been stolen for my sig

[IleneK]

I am new to the forum. I am a GG married to a TS who has been a member since 2005.

The other day my spouse and I were discussing "passing", and it is clear we have different points of view. One of the things I thought was that she has fallen prey to Madison Avenue advertising hype - you are not womanly unless you are model beautiful. My GG girlfriends and I fight this all the time (none of us are model beautiful - not even close). When I look at the pictures of all who have posted on this thread, I think each of you would pass. Some of you remind me of my friends.

I agree that age, gravity, hormone changes, etc. are great equalizer and make the difference between male features and female features less pronounced. I also agree with the post that a picture does not show mannerism, walk, etc., but those are all things that can be learned.

But I think the most important thing to remember is that GGs have had to learn to be comfortable in our own skin, and I don't think it would be any different for you. I think it is important to know that the standard for passing and being loved are not those of Madison Avenue. Be yourself and enjoy who you are. Your spirit will shine through and you will pass with the people that matter.

P.S. I hope I didn't offend anyone. I'm still a novice and am not sure what subjects should be tread lightly upon.
P.P.S. Should I be afraid of Badtranny - I'm not sure I could pass at a 2 hour meeting with new clients planning and negotiating without someone looking twice :-)