CD'ers and LGBT

[RebeccaLynne]

Greenie's thread entitled "Pride" got me thinking about where we are, and where we're headed, regarding general acceptance of crossdressing.

Are we on the outside looking in? I'd really like to know where we stand in the eyes of the "I'm Out, Loud and Proud" movement... they're lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgendered... for the most part, they're not crossdressers. And I really wonder if we would be welcomed and supported by them. Do they even want to include us under the "transgender" umbrella if we're not considering transitioning?

I'm a guy that likes to express his femininity by dressing as a woman. That's as far as it goes for me. It makes me happy. I believe there's nothing wrong with doing so. I'd like to join forces with the LGBT community, as there's strength in numbers, and they've made tremendous strides in gaining acceptance.

I'd like to expand their horizons, bolster their influence, and contribute to their voter base... all by adding two letters... LGBTCD ...

Is that really so hard? :straightface:

Thoughts?

[sheilagirl]

I'm right with you all the way up to the last paragraph, Rebecca. For me, I'm not looking to expand anyone's horizons or contribute to their voter base. I simply try to positively effect those that I come into contact with,whoever they may be. Being able to move about freely, without the fear of intimidation or threats is about as deep as I go on any grand scheme of acceptance. Great question though. Thanks.

[Eryn]

Since CD is a part of the TG spectrum I've never had a doubt that I was part of the overall group. Together we are a strong voice. Our enemies would love it if we split into our individual groups and fought with each other.

[Leona]

I'm of the very strong opinion that the T part of LGBT has been thrown under the bus too many times, it's time for us to make our own stand.

[kimdl93]

we run the risk of getting bogged down in the terminology again. transgender is a much broader umbrella than just the transsexual population that is contemplating or engaged in transitioning. But I can tell you that from the people I know in the LGBT movement, we are welcome and embraced. sure, not by every gay or lesbian person, but then we aren't embraced by every straight person either...as a group we get along fine and hardly need to spit hairs by suggesting that CD is something different from TG

[Alice Torn]

America, and the world, are so divided, and its getting more so. We are all human beings, and all have issues that are individual. When anything, like business, government, sports, universities, etc, get too big, there is danger.

[Jilmac]

Rebecca, when you mention the "transgender umbrella", you're using a term which describes all of us, whether we're fully transitioning or not. As a lifelong crossdresser, I consider myself transgendered because I can enjoy both my male and female sides with no repercussions. The LGBT community in Milwaukee is very welcoming to crossdressers as transgender people and an integral part of the community.

[Leona]

we run the risk of getting bogged down in the terminology again. transgender is a much broader umbrella than just the transsexual population that is contemplating or engaged in transitioning. But I can tell you that from the people I know in the LGBT movement, we are welcome and embraced. sure, not by every gay or lesbian person, but then we aren't embraced by every straight person either...as a group we get along fine and hardly need to spit hairs by suggesting that CD is something different from TG

I have found an overall attitude that it's ok to be TS. If you're not transitioning, then you have to conform to your sex. I have found that attitude in the LGB community as well as the mainstream world. And, oddly, I live in a very liberal place.

This is subjective, it says nothing about how people really feel in general, it only talks about experiences that lead to me feeling as I do. I think as crossdressers we have our own fight on our hands, and it's mostly not a legal fight, it's a social fight. I'd rather it not be a fight, though....

[NathalieX66]

One, technically crossdressers are transgender.....especially if you are out in public as the other gender. Transgender is basically an umbrella term for varieties of gender expression, including drag queen, and transsexual.

Two, Transsexuals are also transgender but transsexual people are really cisgendered....but just not in the body they're born with.

There's a well known joke in the transgender community, it goes like this:
What's the difference between a crossdresser and a transsexual?........answer: two years!

Two years typically refers to the process of changing from male to female, or vice versa. MTF requires hair removal, hormone replacement therapy, and surgeries of one wishes, or can do so. I have a couple of close friends who have done so,and I stand on record of saying that the results are miraculous in their cases. it typically takes about two years or so.

There are also situations where one comes out as a latent crossdresser, and two years later just says, I want to be a woman. .

I have met trassexuals that hate the term transsexual, and prefer to use transgender, and are mad that crossdressers also identify as transgender simply becasuse they hate the word transsexual.

[Leona]

Nathalie: I have found a lot of resistance to terminology in general, even in myself. I prefer not to consider myself transgender at all and would be happy to leave that label for transsexuals that hate the word "transsexual". I feel like the word transgender is more of a political word, even if it's defined by the APA.

Luckily, we have the APA and a few other organizations to define the words for us, and hopefully all we need do is agree on what they mean. It's very difficult to communicate when nobody wants to agree that particular labels apply to them because the labels themselves are crap.

I can see how you wouldn't want "transsexual" applied, since it fits so smoothly with heterosexual, homosexual, and bisexual, and one thing we all face is making it perfectly clear that being transgender says absolutely nothing about who you want to have sex with. So I'm siding with your friends who don't like the word "transsexual", but my vocabulary has nothing that distinguishes them from crossdressers without crossdressers giving up the TG label, and we can't because it's a political word.

Love dilemmas. They're often best fixed by hugs.

[PaulaQ]

Two, Transsexuals are also transgender but transsexual people are really cisgendered....but just not in the body they're born with.



I don't think this makes even a single particle of sense. No offense or anything - but I've heard this from others here, and I think it is just silly. When I have my own breasts, and vaginoplasty, does that make me a cisgendered woman? Hell no. Should I be treated as one? Yes. It's awesome to try to be accepting and stuff - but if we were cisgendered women, we wouldn't need to transition. It just makes no sense.


Luckily, we have the APA and a few other organizations to define the words for us, and hopefully all we need do is agree on what they mean.

The APA has no business defining this stuff either. Or maybe we should let them define terms for lung cancer, diabetes, and other physical ailments. The APA defines this stuff because the AMA is too freaking gutless to do it.

[Michelle.M]

. . . Transsexuals are also transgender but transsexual people are really cisgendered....but just not in the body they're born with.

Not even close. You need to study a little more on those definitions.

[NathalieX66]

I agree. I concede. I will study on those definitions.

[Leona]

I don't think this makes even a single particle of sense. No offense or anything - but I've heard this from others here, and I think it is just silly. When I have my own breasts, and vaginoplasty, does that make me a cisgendered woman? Hell no. Should I be treated as one? Yes. It's awesome to try to be accepting and stuff - but if we were cisgendered women, we wouldn't need to transition. It just makes no sense.

I'm going to disagree that you should be treated as a cisgender woman. I think you should be treated as a woman....period. No qualifiers, no conditions. You are a woman now, you will be a woman in the near future, and you will continue being a woman in the far future.

I don't think that TS's seek to be cis, but they do enjoy the distinction of being able to live as cisgender women, which us crossdressers don't get to do. The best we can hope for is to be treated as women. (Edit: This statement is qualified. I realize that the reality for many TS's is that to be able to live as cis women, they have to abandon their previous lives completely. It's obviously not possible to grow up in a male body, keep that life while transitioning, and become a cis woman.)


The APA has no business defining this stuff either. Or maybe we should let them define terms for lung cancer, diabetes, and other physical ailments. The APA defines this stuff because the AMA is too freaking gutless to do it.

100% true. I have absolutely no disagreement with you here. I understand the historical context, and right now the APA is our biggest professional/scientific ally because they have had the courage to tackle this. But you're right, it shouldn't be them.

[PaulaQ]

I'm going to disagree that you should be treated as a cisgender woman. I think you should be treated as a woman....period. No qualifiers, no conditions. You are a woman now, you will be a woman in the near future, and you will continue being a woman in the far future.


OK, this I agree with, thanks! :)

FWIW, I'm considering, depending on how things go, not living in stealth. I want to keep my friends and family in my life, such as I can - many of them are being accepting. Yeah, my marriage is a goner, but my wife will hopefully stay a friend, given some time to get over her hurt. (I need that time too!) It's a lot to ask them to keep such a secret for me.

Also, the idea of not hiding so much is appealing to me. And while I don't intend to walk around with a sign saying "I'm trans!", maybe I'll be able to stand up and represent in my own quiet way. Because invisibility may make us feel more authentic - of this I have no doubt, and I don't question anyone who'd choose that - but if no one knows about us, how do we ever advance?

[NathalieX66]

Michele M, tell us your story. No offense ...we must learn.
Peace & love.
Hugs,
Nathalie

[Tracii G]

My trans group is part of the GLSO and LGBT in our area and both groups fully support the CD's too.
Tonight I went to a cook out and some were Transmen some were Lesbians some were Gay.
A few were straight couples and their kids.
A fabulous night with some wonderful people.
If you have a trans group ask the GLBT and GLSO for their assistance. by aligning with either or you might be able to have a larger voice in your community.
It sure worked for us in getting a fairness clause implemented in our town.

[PaulaQ]

My local trans support group is also part of the LGBT alliance. I contributed money to them recently, and told the director there that I appreciated the LGB folks doing the heavy lifting for equality, and remembering "T" folks like me, and having to compassion to not watch us get screwed over, and to stand up for us.

[I Am Paula]

Leona, in my experience, when I was though of as a really gung ho CD, I was much more accepted than when I began transition. Transition makes cisgendered people go eeew! They come around eventually.



PaulQ, I'm transitioning right out in the open. I went full time before HRT, so there was certainly no point backtracking. IMHO, once you've decided to be whole, embrace it. I'd rather be funny looking,but presenting female, than be one of the bearded ones with boobs who yhink they're hiding it so well.

[Leona]

but if no one knows about us, how do we ever advance?

Well, I don't think transitioning is in my future, but I certainly don't hide or try to be invisible. I may not be ready to go out 100% en femme, but I'm out and making noise. :)

"Be dangerous and unpredictable, and make a lot of noise." --Anthrax

[TeresaCD]

LGB folks doing the heavy lifting for equality, and remembering "T" folks like me, and having to compassion to not watch us get screwed over, and to stand up for us.
Good way to put it, I guess how I view it.
I don't believe there is any such thing as 'just a CD' myself. Not anymore, anyhow.
I am a guy, who expresses myself at times as a girl.
More than the clothes.
And I do wonder what it would be like, if, when going out, I could choose how to express myself without fear of ridicule, injury or offense.
I can see a time, not sure what I can do to contribute, but looking for ways to stand tall, and dispel the myths and b**sh/t about us.

[kellycan27]

My own personal opinion is that the LGBT community doesn't see cross dressers as a serious ally in the fight. There are a lot of cross dressers who are in the closet and don't want to be outed. There are those who can cross dress and change back into and enjoy their male life who feel no need to be represented, and there are those who are embarrassed, afraid or ashamed and don't want to rock their own boat. Just to name a few. It reminds me of the story of " the little red hen" everyone wants a piece of the bread, but nobody ( at least not enough) want to put the work into baking it. :2c:

[Christine.Lolita]

I believe that Cross Dressers are part of the Trans gendered spectrum. I have been seeing a therapist and this is what was explained to me. I know that many cross dressers do not feel that that are TG and I totally respect that.

[Leona]

And I do wonder what it would be like, if, when going out, I could choose how to express myself without fear of ridicule, injury or offense.
I can see a time, not sure what I can do to contribute, but looking for ways to stand tall, and dispel the myths and b**sh/t about us.

I'm not trying to pimp my website, but I *did* write an article about this.

http://www.davefancella.com/blog/heb_in_a_skirt.html

In short, what you can do is go out anyway. When people look at you funny, stare them down. Be assertive. Assert your rights. When you get bad treatment from anybody representing any organization, raise hell with that organization.

We should have our own Pride parade. We should have a dedicated "We're trans and proud!" event. All closet crossdressers should show up and be allies, staying in the closet but still standing up for their rights.

Ok, I'm obviously going off the deep end on this, but hey, I'm a bit of a rebel and want to stand up to authority pretty much all the time.

[Brooklyn]

I'm out, proud and feel part of the movement to treat everyone as equals, regardless of sexual orientation or gender identity / expression. I felt very much accepted at the Pride parade here in San Antonio on Saturday. The more we can be open and set good examples, the more we will find ourselves tolerated under the law and eventually accepted by society. But, we are going to have to fight for our rights, just like women, ethnic minorities, and gay people have over the decades. Here in Texas, you can be fired for being a CD-er in your private life, and I know several TS people who cannot find a job because of their appearance. Some of them are homeless, and two of them are prostitutes to survive. I don't care what acronyms people prefer; we are all queer in some way!

[CherylFlint]

Here’s where it gets tricky.
CD’s who “pass”, no problem.
On the other hand, CD’s who don’t pass but possibly could if they’d care to make the effort, now that’s an entirely another story.
On the whole spectrum, CD’s are at the outside fringe, which is okay with me, I mean I mind my own business.
Drag Queens are something else entirely and I don’t think they’re related to CD’s.
Actually, I think of myself as a TV.
It’s not complicated, but for you CD’s who don’t pass, I won’t suggest you stay home, but for your own safety it be wise to stay safe. Now if you don’t agree with me, that’s okay, just trying to keep us all safe. It’s the mean punks, probably guys who are like us, or wish they had the nerve, so they lash out, especially if they have two or three of their friends with them.
Note to NathalieX66: I really enjoy reading your comments.

[Lorileah]

Do they even want to include us under the "transgender" umbrella if we're not considering transitioning? Who are "they"? In general the CDs here don't WANT to be with the LGBT groups because they are so afraid they will be labeled "Gay". I see so many here with loud voices chiming they don't need or want help or general acceptance. Yet they are willing to take what they get from the actions of others.


I'd like to join forces with the LGBT community, as there's strength in numbers, and they've made tremendous strides in gaining acceptance.

I'd like to expand their horizons, bolster their influence, and contribute to their voter base... all by adding two letters... LGBTCD ... and why then aren't you happy with the "T" part? By definition (and I know there are three people here who will fight me on this but you have to accept a definition for ALL and not just the few) transgender... of, relating to, or being a person who identifies with or expresses a gender identity that differs from the one which corresponds ...


Is that really so hard? :straightface: I ask you the same question, is it hard to accept that Transgender covers CDs? Why do you need to split into a different faction?

[Jacqueline Winona]

I'm the contrarian on this one. Most of the Gay and Lesbian friends I have do not consider crossdressers part of the fold. They are always glad to have allies and appreciate the support, but they are not marching for the right for men to wear dresses. Cheryl is right that Drag Queens are something totally unrelated to CD's, they have been part of the Lesbian and Gay movement since the beginning. The T in LGBT is for Transgendered of course, but like many of us, that doesn't mean any possible form of transexualism, crossdressing, cisgender, etc. Those of us who do dress 24/7 and/or identify as the opposite gender primarily seem to be the consensus of what T means to the LGBT community. Again, this is based strictly on what I hear and know.

[GroovyChristy]

I think CDers DO fit in with the LGBT community. It is becoming more frequent to see it labelled as LGBTQ, Q standing for queer which, as I understand it, includes anyone who doesn't fall into traditional gender identities. I have the good fortune of being bi, so I find solidarity in the LGBTQ community anyway, but my experience with others leads me to believe that LGBT folks are willing to accept CDers.

[PaulaQ]

Cheryl is right that Drag Queens are something totally unrelated to CD's, they have been part of the Lesbian and Gay movement since the beginning.

I don't mean for what I'm about to say to sound combative, or hostile. I don't mean it that way - I love you and Cheryl both, and mean no disrespect. <3

But can someone answer for me why "Drag Queens" aren't gay men who CD? I've heard many "explanations" of this - but all of them, so far, have struck me as mostly bullshit and arm-waving. Mostly it comes down to "bu-bu-but everbody KNOWS it's different!!!!!!!" OK, why? I'm listening. Why can't this be related in some manner? Sure, it may not be EXACTLY identical - but really, what is the major difference that makes men who habitually wear women's clothes something totally different from other men who wear women's clothes?

[AmyGaleRT]

Paula, the main thing that makes "drag queens" different is that they dress primarily for entertainment purposes. They do tend to be gay men, which would make them part of the gay & lesbian movement by definition.

Or you can apply Noxeema Jackson's definition from To Wong Foo, Thanks For Everything, Julie Newmar: "When a gay man has way too much fashion sense for one gender he is a drag queen." (Perhaps that makes us CDs straight men who have way too much fashion sense for one gender? :heehee: )

- Amy

[Greenie]

Without outing luca this weekend to my friends I asked what they thought about CDers. I think its funny because even in the LGB world.... they don't get it.

I asked the girls, all lesbians and some of the gay men and got two responses. Well they are like drag queens where they are gay men who dress as women, but they want to be more realistic. Or aren't CDers transsexual. Some of them thought CDing was a gender issue, while some thought it was purely sexual.

How can a community that knows NOTHING about you accept you and welcome you into the fold as one of their own.

When I tell people that the majority of CDers are hetero males they look at me all confused like I am a crazy person.

[PaulaQ]

Paula, the main thing that makes "drag queens" different is that they dress primarily for entertainment purposes. They do tend to be gay men, which would make them part of the gay & lesbian movement by definition.

I know that. And I'd say "and so what does that have to do with anything?" Oh, OK, they are gay and they dress for entertainment purposes. Arm waving. Why is any of that so different? I'm sure I'm stupid and stuff - but I am one of those annoying kids who wants the teacher to explain WHY something's so. Sure you can make up distinctions for different groups based on what they say about themselves - but really, is that so useful? I mean, sure, call people what they want to be called - I have no problem with that. Just don't pretend like it means much of anything.

[Lorileah]

I'm the contrarian on this one. Most of the Gay and Lesbian friends I have do not consider crossdressers part of the fold.
Would you want someone to be part of your club that constantly said they didn't want to be part of your club? Think about it. The L&G community works to get things changed. The CD community goes home and has chips and dips and complains that they can't go out dressed because of "them" (whoever them is?) But when they get asked to stand up there is a million excuses from..."aw gee I don't want to look gay" to "My wife won't let me" to "what will the neighbors think?" Look around here. We can't even agree to be together as a unit. How did the song go?

There is a blue one who can't accept the green one
For living with a fat one trying to be a skinny one
And different strokes for different folks
And so on and so on and scooby dooby doo-bee
Oh sha sha - we got to live together

So why would the G&L community want us on their coat tails....BECAUSE they know oppression. They know that until EVERYONE is equal NO ONE is equal. Yet we could not put together a baseball team here because everyone would want to redefine the rules.

Here is the truth (and it is the truth not your perspective) The LGBT community works for ALL people who fit the LGBT definition. GLAAD, HRC, ILGA, IGLYO, Equality (and many states go here), Lambda legal, Gay and Lesbian task force, Outserve (who recently started working for T service people to get the same right the L&G now have), and about two dozen T rights groups. They don't hate us as groups. members may not like us but we don't work hard to be thier friends either. They put wording in their cases for the Ts but it gets eliminated when the straight governing people think we would scuttle the bills (so blame the straights not the gays). Tell me if there was a chance you could get something you want and all that stands in your way are a bunch of wishy washy scared of shadows and don't want to be with you people, would you demand they still be brought along? You know the joke about running from a bear right...well as long as we sit here and complain about how we AREN'T something, we are the bear bait.

When the "I am not a Transgender because my dressing isn't about being a woman" people finally figure out that they need the same help the rest of the TG community needs and we all play on the same playground with the same rules, we will get the acceptance. In the meantime look who the mainstream sees as the T community...Drag Queens, Felons, Clowns, bad movie actors (the movies are bad not the actors...Sorry but Tootsie doesn't help our agenda at all...he did it to gain something for him then let it go when he got it).

How many went to PRIDE? I did as a show of solidarity even though I believe the majority there were for the party and not to gain rights like the old days. Scream from the ragters "I am NOT gay!" but when push comes to shove guess where you will be placed? You can either work with them or you can fail with them...your choice

[Greenie]

Sure you can make up distinctions for different groups based on what they say about themselves - but really, is that so useful? I mean, sure, call people what they want to be called - I have no problem with that. Just don't pretend like it means much of anything.

I think this is like the idea of how a square is a rectangle... But a rectangle is not a square.

A drag queen is by definition a CROSS dresser. (dressing in clothing of that of an opposite sex) but a CDer s not a drag queen. Drag queens have an element of theater and acting to them. I have heard rumors that the word Drag comes from the time of Shakespeare when women were not allowed to be on stage, thus men needed to DRress As Girls DRAG. This was referred to as drag. If this is true it would make sense because I feel like drag queen still have a theatrical element to them. They are putting on a person as an act, while CDers often adopt a persona they wish to embody for real... Not as a façade or for entertainment, but for personal reasons.

[PaulaQ]

If this is true it would make sense because I feel like drag queen still have a theatrical element to them. They are putting on a person as an act, while CDers often adopt a persona they wish to embody for real... Not as a façade or for entertainment, but for personal reasons.

There are many CDers who will tell you they dress for personal reasons, but do not want to be women. Why is the desire to be theatrical not a personal reason? By the way, I've talked with CDers here who put on webcam shows. Is that not theatrical?

Drag queens tend to be WAY more open than the average girl on this forum - except for the girls here who count themselves as CDers who go out in public all the time.

I am asking - does the motivation for a behavior that is as socially unacceptable as MtF cross dressing really make that much of a difference? BTW, there are FtM drag performers too. There aren't any FtM cross dressers as best I can tell, because women can wear anything, so being a FtM CD isn't really possible. (Or at least it's real damn hard for them to be taken as the opposite gender.)

I don't deny that Drag Queens and most of the CDers here on this forum are different subcultures - but does this really make them different in terms of the underlying things that causes their behavior? I have my doubts of this. Really serious doubts. Mostly because these explanations really do seem like arm-waving to me.

[Beverley Sims]

Rebecca,
I agree with your post, labels are for clothing, they have a size and sometimes useful washing instructions.
If I make a packet pudding I will read the directions.
If I wish to prepare a gourmet dish of some kind I will consult a recipe book.
If I wonder who I am?
I get dressed and go out.
Let someone else worry about it, I don't.

[Jacqueline Winona]

Would you want someone to be part of your club that constantly said they didn't want to be part of your club? Think about it. The L&G community works to get things changed. The CD community goes home and has chips and dips and complains that they can't go out dressed because of "them" (whoever them is?) But when they get asked to stand up there is a million excuses from..."aw gee I don't want to look gay" to "My wife won't let me" to "what will the neighbors think?" Look around here. We can't even agree to be together as a unit. How did the song go?


So why would the G&L community want us on their coat tails....BECAUSE they know oppression. They know that until EVERYONE is equal NO ONE is equal. Yet we could not put together a baseball team here because everyone would want to redefine the rules.

Here is the truth (and it is the truth not your perspective) The LGBT community works for ALL people who fit the LGBT definition. GLAAD, HRC, ILGA, IGLYO, Equality (and many states go here), Lambda legal, Gay and Lesbian task force, Outserve (who recently started working for T service people to get the same right the L&G now have), and about two dozen T rights groups. They don't hate us as groups. members may not like us but we don't work hard to be thier friends either. They put wording in their cases for the Ts but it gets eliminated when the straight governing people think we would scuttle the bills (so blame the straights not the gays). Tell me if there was a chance you could get something you want and all that stands in your way are a bunch of wishy washy scared of shadows and don't want to be with you people, would you demand they still be brought along? You know the joke about running from a bear right...well as long as we sit here and complain about how we AREN'T something, we are the bear bait.

When the "I am not a Transgender because my dressing isn't about being a woman" people finally figure out that they need the same help the rest of the TG community needs and we all play on the same playground with the same rules, we will get the acceptance. In the meantime look who the mainstream sees as the T community...Drag Queens, Felons, Clowns, bad movie actors (the movies are bad not the actors...Sorry but Tootsie doesn't help our agenda at all...he did it to gain something for him then let it go when he got it).

How many went to PRIDE? I did as a show of solidarity even though I believe the majority there were for the party and not to gain rights like the old days. Scream from the ragters "I am NOT gay!" but when push comes to shove guess where you will be placed? You can either work with them or you can fail with them...your choice

Where in my post did I ever say the Lesbian and Gay movement hates CD's? I said something very different, and Greenie's post is pretty similar to what I hear from members of the "LGBT" community;, they really don't see the connection between them and (heterosexual) crossdressers who aren't a)attracted to members of the same gender or b) considering transition. It isn't the same to them. It doesn't mean they don't support liberty for all who want it, or nonconformance, but their movement still primarily is about getting equal rights for those who are actually gay, lesbian, or bisexual. As far as what they do politically, of course they support their core philosophies more than other points of view. In this respect, they aren't a lot different than any other lobbying group; unions support prevailing wage issues all the time but don't have any problem not insisting on farm laborers getting a true living wage when it comes time to get a bill passed.

As for the parade issue, No I didn't go to any, it doesn't mean I don't or haven't supported every initiative on the issue of same gender marriage, haven't publicly thanked friends who were fighting for this issue 20 years before it finally passed, haven't gone out of my way to influence how people think of people in the LGBT community (your definition or mine), and haven't tried to raise my kids to accept people for who they are at all times. Maybe some don't think that's enough but I respectfully disagree. I simply can't pretend that I believe that I should be included in the LGBT community because I too think the issues they face are a lot different than anything I have or will ever face. Nonetheless, I and the LGBT community do agree on many of the same issues, and for that I am thankful for them even if I don't consider myself a part of their movement.

[Angela Campbell]

It is funny. People in our group...cd's, TG, TS, genderqueer.....all fight so much between themselves about terminology they cannot focus the fight where it is important. The LBGT pride movement was begun by Crossdressers and gays at the Stonewall riot. We are part of it but have such a small voice still. Maybe because so many of us are so secretive. We seem to be in refusal to be put in any group. As soon as a group is identified we get the old "I am not one of those". Self denial, refusal to be inclusive, and fighting over "labels" (lol) doesn't help. No wonder we have such a small voice in the LGBT world. Where would the gay rights situation be if the gays and lesbians clung to yelling..."do not label me, I am not gay, gay is a label, I hate labels"! No they say "I am gay and I am proud!" A label is a name that describes, it is good and it is important, and like it or not we all have several. I am a man, I am a woman, I am black, I am white, I am young, I am old, all are descriptive labels. Be proud of your labels because you have them whether you want them or not.

Either way I have enough on my plate as it is without getting involved in the politics of the situation. I support Pride, and all they represent but I have my own battles to fight. I am Transgendered! I am also Transsexual! I am proud! I wear my labels everyday.

[noeleena]

Hi,

I do have a ? now some have said what about thier rights . what rights are being refered to. now the ? with that is who here is male & likes to dress, or crossdress. this seems to me to be about men wonting our womens rights , that ...our... women were fighting for from the 1880' to 1920's yet what i keep hearing is about the dressers rights.

okay since you are men you allso wont ...our ... rights as well as yours as men. men took our rights away, we have many back yet you wont it all back so by dressing where are we left , you wont us to accept you as though you are women, you wont every thing tollets being where we are & live, you are takeing over our space . some of you wont to take over our jobs / work, work place's, what you may throw back at us is we have taken over your domain , well you did not allow us to be there even if we had wonted to be there, exception was the 2n WW. something sure changed there,

We had to take over because we had no men to man the work our women ...had.... to just do it.

So the ? is who are the women here the real women. i think its about the real ...need... not another wont or i wont ...i wont....

...noeleena...

[Kate Simmons]

This is the very reason that I focus on the fact that we are all people and not this , that or the other thing.:)

[Rogina B]

For me,being a part of a Pride event or an Equality event is to show the world that T's are real and part of the whole civil rights movement.Happy to be out there in the public eye and be counted!

[Briana90802]

I've always felt that we were excluded from the lgbt community for the simple reason that the majority of us aren't gay. Vice versa, we stand alone from the straight side too because they don't understand us and because they think we're gay.

[melissakozak]

Back in the early 1990's, the trans community was politically split and it still is to some degree...the problem with integration is simple: drag queens, CDs, and TGs and TSs all have different reasons for presenting as the opposite but to many who are ignorant about our particular reason, we all kinda look the same to some degree....get it? That being said, many large LGBT groups in large cities are pretty open to CDs as well, at least that is my experience....do we belong to the LGBT community? Yes...

[Tina B.]

We not only belong to the LGBT movement, we are the original T in LGBT. The word Transvestite (which only means by definition, Crossdresser, or dressing in the clothes of the opposite gender. The word Transvestite was around way before Transsexual. So we are the original T, in LGBT, like it or not!

[linda allen]

One, technically crossdressers are transgender......

No, I don't believe so. I am a straight male crossdresser. Nothing "transgender" about me. My gender is male, my clothing and presentation may be female from time to time, but that's all there is to it.

[Alice Torn]

Right on Kate Simmons.

[Brooklyn]

I did drag years ago and am getting involved in it again now. Many queens are actually TS; I know of two here in San Antonio and there was one who came out on RPDR this past season. We are part of the same community and the only real fights we usually have are over makeup brushes, hunty!

[mariehart]

This thread typifies the problem. We have difficulty in defining ourselves. The main reason is that people who wear the clothes of the opposite sex cover the spectrum. If you're gay you're attracted to men not women. Lesbian you are attracted to women only and bisexual both sexes. That covers the LGB. The problem with the T is it's ambiguity and it's scope. From straight men with a fetish interest in lingerie right across to people who realise they are in the wrong body when they were little children.

So no wonder there are problems. The classic or cliched CD is a man who is straight, often married who enjoys wearing women's clothes for it's own sake. I think I would say the majority of those men would feel they have nothing in common with the LGBT grouping. But as we know that isn't the whole story. Many of us would be also be gay or bisexual so would fit in with the LGBT grouping. Then of course there's the whole range or sub groups. People who are transitioning, not transitioning, think they're CD but really TG/TS, those who can't decide or admit to it and those who are too scared to take it any further.

My attitude is that LGBT should be inclusive and generally is but everyone has an opinion and a prejudice. There is nothing to stop straight people walking in a Pride parade and many do, crossdressed or not.

I don't think there will every be an easy answer to any of this.

[arbon]

I think rather than adding more letters onto the lgbtqa, or showing up in pride parades, crossdressers would be better served by just being out and open. You gain acceptance from others by actually having the courage to be out and open with them. One person at a time.

[celeste26]

So how about these definitions:

xxxxsexual is about the sex
xxxxgender is about the gender (expression)
xxxxvestite is about the clothes (cross dressing is literally the same thing)

and none of them are exclusive a single person can fit within more than one (serially or in parallel.) some people still have this puritanical side to them and dont like the "sexual" term for that reason, but one should look to the goals of what you want. Using the term "Trans" and leave off the ending can be a compromise.

[meganmartin]

From my experience it is mixed just as it is mixed just within the trans community itself. I have met some that do not associate with anyone and look down at the trans community and found some that are very curious about me just as I am about them.

[Tracii G]

The cook out I went to last night was hosted by a trans friend and a group called LOVEbodly and is basically a gay right organization.
Everyone there was bonded by one simple thing "acceptance". It didn't matter what part of the spectrum you were.
I was in 50/50 mode and was never shunned in any way and was treated with respect.
Its time to let go of nit picking about letters and get involved in a group of some kind in your area.The GLSO and LGBT groups are everywhere join one and become involved.
Get your voice out there.

[Stark]

I'm brand new here, but here's my $0.02 as a transmasculine person and a new significant friend of a CD'er:

First of all, the "gender police" exist everywhere, not just in the cis/straight population. The LGBT community is full of examples of T people being shunned, shamed, rejected, etc. by gays and lesbians. Get on a gay dating site sometime and see how many men's profiles say "no femmes," or listen to some lesbians declaring that one of their own has come out as trans simply to "gain male privilege." So the entire T umbrella is still fighting for acceptance even within the queer community.

As far as why CD'ers in particular might not gain acceptance even under that T umbrella, perhaps it's due to the (often mistaken?) belief that CD is not about identity but is merely a fetish. Until someone I respected (and now care about a good deal) "came out" to me and we discussed it, I believed this myself. :( Having been trusted enough to interact with him when he's en femme, I can clearly see that, while this is not exactly the same as being MtF trans, it is still literally trans-gender behaviour/feelings. He is moving across gender and is definitively both the same and different when he's in that mode. It's fascinating for me as someone who goes back and forth between feeling liberated and oppressed by the fact that I occupy a space off the two poles of socially-accepted gender expression. So, I think CD'ers belong under the umbrella if only because they are defying the "two and only two boxes" system.

[Vickie_CDTV]

I have found the members of the LGBT community often doesn't understand hetero men who crossdress, but I don't think it is due to any kind of animosity. It is just difficult for those who are cisgendered, gay or hetero, to understand why a straight man would want to wear dresses occasionally. Most gay men are masculine and like men, I am a feminine man (at least occasionally) who likes women, it is just hard for them to relate to and wrap their mind around; likewise, I can't (personally) wrap my mind around the idea of being with another man.

[Leona]

Get your voice out there.

Best advice ever.

Look how it worked in the '60s for the civil rights movement! MLK had the right idea when he decided to follow the crowd! :) Pride parades have done a great deal to win acceptance for LGB! And those started almost as pitched battles.

You can't be heard if you don't speak up! DO SOMETHING. ANYTHING. I started with the grocery store, heh. Considering other things now that that's sorted out (and the clientele there are also responding more positively to me. A couple I've seen before went by and I heard the man teasing the woman about my outfit, and she agreed she liked it, but would never wear it because she couldn't pull it off like I did :) ).

So GET OUT THERE AND BE SEEN. And when people try to be mean to you, do what you gotta do, but do it peacefully, even if confrontationally. MLK had the best ideas for that (which he ripped from Gandhi).

[Sophie_C]

Greenie's thread entitled "Pride" got me thinking about where we are, and where we're headed, regarding general acceptance of crossdressing.

Are we on the outside looking in? I'd really like to know where we stand in the eyes of the "I'm Out, Loud and Proud" movement... they're lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgendered... for the most part, they're not crossdressers. And I really wonder if we would be welcomed and supported by them. Do they even want to include us under the "transgender" umbrella if we're not considering transitioning?

I'm a guy that likes to express his femininity by dressing as a woman. That's as far as it goes for me. It makes me happy. I believe there's nothing wrong with doing so. I'd like to join forces with the LGBT community, as there's strength in numbers, and they've made tremendous strides in gaining acceptance.

I'd like to expand their horizons, bolster their influence, and contribute to their voter base... all by adding two letters... LGBTCD ...

Is that really so hard? :straightface:

Thoughts?

CD = Q, as part of the LGBTQ. Read up, sweetie!! Queer encompasses Crossdressers, as well as plenty of other people who have fetishes and various other things that scare middle america! Crossdressers were at stonewall, and the primary people who started rioting.

[Leona]

What if I don't want to accept the "queer" label, or "genderqueer"? What if I grew up in a way that the word "queer" is as offensive to me as that one word that starts with 'n'?

:)

This is why I accept "transgender" politically. It's inoffensive, and reasonably describes who I am to someone who knows it's a big umbrella. To others, I'll gladly explain it.

[Tracii G]

How does CD = Q? Most are not Q.
When someone says genderqueer do they mean odd or gay?
Most of the gay people I know never use the word queer.
I heard the term "guy dyke" online from a FtM person and I'm still confused as to what they meant.

Did some research and a guy dyke is a guy that is attracted to lesbian women/ looking women.Learn something new everyday.

[DebbieL]

Greenie's thread entitled "Pride" got me thinking about where we are, and where we're headed, regarding general acceptance of crossdressing.

Are we on the outside looking in? I'd really like to know where we stand in the eyes of the "I'm Out, Loud and Proud" movement... they're lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgendered... for the most part, they're not crossdressers.

Keep in mind that the term transgendered has been deliberately kept separate and distinct from transsexual since about 1985.

Harry Benjamin, trying to come up with terminology that distinguished the range of cross-gender behaviors and roles tried to create this distinction in his papers as well. Later the IFGE tried to further establish the distinction. A transsexual is someone who feels that his sexual identity does not match his biology. A transsexual may or may not transition, may have decided not to transition, may be in transition, may have decided on a partial transition (she-males), or may even have completed transition. Many transsexuals who have completely transitioned don't consider themselves transsexual any more since their identity and biology seem to match. Even so, they have the experience of being transsexuals and provide support and the experience of having been both male and female in either order.

The term "Transgender" has been established and distinguished to include the widest possible range of those who wish to express aspects of gender that are opposite of their birth gender. This could range from being "effeminate" to fetish dressing (wearing only particular items of clothing), to cross-dressing, to passing to being full-blown transsexual. Much like Kinsey's scale of 1-6 regarding sexual preference, with 1 being totally heterosexual to 6 being totally homosexual in both preference and actions, and the range of 2 through 5 including not only actual practices but also fantasies and desires.

Harry Benjamin tried to establish a similar scale for those who are transgendered, ranging from 1 to 6, with 1 being someone who is totally content with their own birth gender to 6 being someone who would rather commit suicide than live trapped in their birth gender, someone who MUST transition to survive.

Again, the range between 2 and 5 includes both desires and fantasies as well as practices. There are some cross-dressers who dress up and love being pretty and sexy for an hour or two, perhaps only for sexual pleasure, then want to go back to their birth gender until their next experience, these might be a 2 on the scale. Conversely, there are some who may appear to be completely gender conformance yet have secret desires and fantasies of being transformed into a full blown woman, perhaps a 4 or even a 5 on the scale.

Rating transgender people is very difficult and a given rating may only be for a moment in time, for a specific set of circumstances. A heterosexual man who is happily married, has children, a great job, and only dresses up in private, perhaps in hotels, may consider himself a 2 on the scale. That same man, having been outed, divorced, unable to see his children and with a new partner who is totally accepting of his transgender status my swing to a 4 or 5 on the scale, wanting to present as the opposite gender as much as possible.

Often, true transsexuals will manifest their transgender desires and fantasies very early. Often, even as toddlers, they will gravitate to members of the opposite sex, a boy might want to play with dolls, and a girl might want to play with her brother's trucks. Often they will try to cross-dress in simple and seemingly innocent ways. The boy may make a skirt out of a towel or a pillow case, the girl will wear pants and pull any jewelry out of her hair. A transgender girl, when forced to wear a dress will often do everything she can to mess it up as much as possible, especially if it involves getting into a fight or wrestling match with the boys.

For transgender boys, there is usually a point, shortly after elementary school, often first or second grade, when they will be forced to be gender conformant. They will be forced to play with other boys, even though they don't want to. They might not be allowed to play with other girls. In many cases, the forced behavior is the result of a cross-dressing incident. They may have tried on mom's clothes, or swapped clothes with one of the other little girls in the neighborhood, or even said in class that they wanted to be a princess. Often, they are labled "sissies" and violently attacked, sometimes even under the direct supervision of teachers and school supervisors. The young transsexual learns quickly to hide all true feelings and to try and at least avoid the beatings. Very often, transsexuals who are not allowed to play with girls and don't want to play with boys will turn to "what's so", learning to read non-fiction books, with more interest in science, history, geography, and how things work. They often also develop an interest in poetry, writing, or music, since this provides activities which can be enjoyed with both boys and girls.

Other transgenders, those who are more to the 2 or 3 side, are more likely to start cross-dressing later in life, often on a dare, a lost bet, or a Halloween costume. They enjoy the feel of the clothes, enjoy the experience, and have fun with it, but the initial experience is more like a joke, something they did for fun, and liked it. Since they don't have negative experiences of being male, they are often quite happy playing with boys, getting into sports, even fighting, and just considering it all part of becoming a man. Often, they will keep their dressing a secret, or when they dress in public, such as for Halloween, will try to make a joke of it, wearing obviously large boobs, a rag mop wig, leaving all the hair on their bodies, and even showing their muscles and sporting 5 O-Clock shadows. Even when dressing in private, they don't make any attempt to "pass".

Meanwhile, the transsexual, fearing the hostile environment and persecution of peers, the rejection of those he is attracted to, and faced with prolonged periods of loneliness, will often become an expert at "Acting". In many cases, they almost become a caricature of masculinity. Often, they have few very close friends, and most people sense their dishonesty. I often think of the image of Eddie Haskel in "Leave it to Beaver". He would come in and say "That's a very lovely dress you're wearing Mrs Cleaver", almost blurting out "I wish I could wear it", yet Eddie was also the one who would tell Wally and Beaver to lie about everything. Much of this was because in the life of a transsexual every breath they take is a lie.

Usually, by the time both are in high school, it's nearly impossible to tell them apart. The transsexual has become a very skilled actor, and could easily work as an undercover cop. The cross-dresser has also become very skilled at hiding his desire to cross-dress. Both may appear homophobic, or homosexual. Both may appear to like a wide range of things, including music, theater, and even dance. Both may appear to be dating normally, and even their girl-friends couldn't tell you the difference. They may notice that something is different though. Both types of transgender male are likely to be more sympathetic to women, more appreciative of their situations, and may even be less sexually aggressive. In many cases, both will be content to go on the date, act like a gentlemen, perhaps do some kissing and heaving petting, then go home and get dressed up to finish themselves off. Women sometimes misinterpret this as being homosexual or at least not interested. The cross-dresser wants to wear her dress, the transsexual wants to wear everything, and even have breasts as large as hers.

Even the sexual fantasies are very similar. Both may have fantasies about being seduced by a beautiful woman who thinks they are a beautiful woman. They may imagine spending lots of time caressing and brushing against each other, kissing and petting. Then things may shift - for the full blown transsexual, the woman pulls off her dress to expose beautiful women's parts. The cross-dresser or the 2-4 transgender will imagine that she discovers boy parts and is delighted to find them.

Often transsexuals will try to minimize their boy parts, keeping things as small as possible, keeping things tucked in. Often they will try to prevent the testes from producing testosterone, this may involve "poaching" (sitting in a bath as hot as you can stand to prevent production of semen and testosterone), "strangling" with string or rubber bands to cut off circulation. Other techniques include gaffs, ice, and packing everything up in very tight underwear to make them disappear.

Cross-dressers will often try to encourage their boy parts, even trying to make themselves bigger, stretching, even using vacuum devices. They want to be seen as a woman by their fantasy woman, but when the critical time comes, they want to be as "man" as they can possibly be.

Often, the lines are blurred and crossed, many times. The cross-dresser may take on the traits of a transsexual and the transsexual may try to take on the traits of the cross-dresser.

Perhaps the biggest "tell" is when either is confronted with NOT being able to express as their fantasy gender. To the cross-dresser, it's more like a fun "hobby", and they may even deliberately "purge", wishing to resume "normal" life, without consequence. If their spouse tells them to stop, they are willing to do so, and do their best to adjust. They may eventually succumb again, but it's not a serious problem for them to stop.

The transsexual on the other hand, really struggles with forced conformity. Often, when going through puberty, as their body gets hairy and their voice drops and they get too big for clothes worn by other women in their family, they become hopeless and despondent. Often, they become self destructive, even suicidal. They may drink heavily, turn to drugs, even go into frequent black-outs, not remembering what they did the night before. Transsexuals are more likely to try and do an "accidental overdose", or may turn to poisons and strangulation. They are much less likely to chose firearms. Often, they won't tell anyone what they have done, and even when they mark themselves, such as cutting, slitting wrists, or ligature marks, they will hide them well and won't discuss it with anyone, even their closest friends.

What the ENTIRE LGBT community has in common is the experience of having to keep their deepest and strongest desires, their sexuality, and their most powerful and motivating fantasies, a deep dark secret. They often experience dire consequences when they make the mistake of revealing these desires.

We also experience some of the same guilt, shame, and fear of discovery. Often, this includes our current relationships. We may feel that we have to keep our secrets, even from our partners, because not only could they reject us, they could make our secrets public and start the cycle of persecution and abuse all over again. Even the cross-dresser experiences this fear, because he has seen the persecution and suffering inflicted on others who are discovered or "outed" involuntarily.

Often, those who are transgendered try to conform, hoping that moving in with a new partner, sex on a regular basis with a desirable partner, and/or marriage will somehow bring them the satisfaction and eliminate their need to be transgendered. Often, children bring not only the joys and pleasures of being a parent, but also the additional burden of having to keep everything even more of a secret. Not only is there the fear of losing the spouse, but there is the added fear of losing the children, child support, and possibly even loss of visitation if ever discovered.


And I really wonder if we would be welcomed and supported by them. Do they even want to include us under the "transgender" umbrella if we're not considering transitioning?

The answer is yes, absolutely! When I was in high school, I did get connected with the gay community. They weren't quite sure what was going on, but they knew there was something different. I felt supported in the community because there was much more sexual honesty, more understanding of the diversity of sexuality, including sexual preference as well as sexual preferences.

When I was 18, I was invited to a gay bar, where I was told I would be kept safe. While there I met my first drag queen, but I also met my first transgender MtF in the process. I began to learn that there were many different kinds of dressers, including drag queens, transvestites, and cross-dressers. I still had not yet met a transsexual, and she-males were still far too scarce (1974).

Later, in college, members of the gay community figured it out and tried to give me some magazines of transvestites. This was back in 1974, so there were no she-males in these publications, and I hoped that I wasn't as awkward looking as the men in the pictures, but I realized that they were trying to tell me that they knew, and that it was OK.

More importantly, I was at a nearly all-girl school, and once they figured out some aspect of what I was, they began to accept me as "One of the girls", even giving me tips on hygene, grooming, and helping me to look and move more graceful and feminine. I still struggled, partly because I was still a virgin (from the waist down), but I also began reading publications like Penthouse Letters and Variations, along with other publications based on stories and experiences.

Later, it was a gay sponsor who helped me do my inventory for my 12 step program, a turning point that led to 33 years of continuous sobriety/clean time (and counting).

When I finally went public, and I went to a gender therapist, I was encouraged to go to gay meetings. There I was able to discuss how it felt to be "different" with people who could understand. I met both gay men and lesbians as well as bisexuals who were able to understand, and to be supportive in very real ways. It wasn't about getting "picked up", it was about talking about things that I had kept secret for decades (about 30 years), and hearing the experience, strength and hope of others who had kept their own secrets, who came out, and who struggled with the secrets.

I was also encouraged to go to women's meetings, where I was able to listen to, and share, about my feelings, what it felt like to be vulnerable, to feel forced to live a life of secrets. I was able to share my feelings of fear, shame, guilt, fear of discovery, frustration at having to keep the secret from those I loved. I was able to be supported by the other women, as a woman.

Perhaps the strangest request was that I go to some biker meetings. It turned out that there were many bisexual women who were also rebels, and found the prospect of someone like Debbie quite appealing.

So many transgenders, especially men, struggle in loneliness and solitude for so long. The LGBT community has so much to offer in terms of support, including at the personal, social, community, and political levels. When I first came out in 1988, in Denver Colorado, I had no rights as a member of the LGBT community. I could be harassed into quitting a job I loved, because even though I wasn't gay, I was "perceived" as gay because I dressed. My wife could have an affair with my full knowledge, and then divorce me, because even though I wasn't actually gay, I was "perceived" not only as gay, but as a "pervert", unfit to be around the children I had raised for almost 10 years.

Thanks to the actions of the LGBT community, I have rights in many states. In New Jersey I am legally allowed to use bathrooms, dressing rooms, and other public facilities regardless of my birth gender, especially when presenting as female. My job is protected by state and federal employment laws, my employer has a pro diversity program which encourages employment of LGBT members.

This doesn't give me licence, or "special protection", I still have to work as hard, or harder than others, but at least I don't have to worry that even if I produce extraordinary results for my employer, a homophobic supervisor will make my work-life a living hell simply because I have worn a dress on the weekend.

For those of us in our late 50s, we can remember a time when even going out dressed in public could get you arrested, thrown into a jail cell with a bunch of men, and the guards would laugh as the others in the cell took turns at you.

So YES the answer is absolutely YES, the LGBT community is a HUGE asset to ALL transgender people, be they tom-boys or occasional cross-dressers.


I'm a guy that likes to express his femininity by dressing as a woman. That's as far as it goes for me. It makes me happy. I believe there's nothing wrong with doing so. I'd like to join forces with the LGBT community, as there's strength in numbers, and they've made tremendous strides in gaining acceptance.

Keep in mind that there was once a time when you could have been arrested for cross-dressing, even in private. If you wife caught you, or you were photographed, you might have been labeled a sex offender and you would have no rights in a divorce proceeding. You would be forced to pay both full Alimony and full Child Support, you could be denied all visitation rights, and could have been not only fired, but black-listed. This also made blackmail a bigger problem, because anyone who knew your secret could force you to do almost anything or you risked having every aspect of your life destroyed.


I'd like to expand their horizons, bolster their influence, and contribute to their voter base... all by adding two letters... LGBTCD ...

There have been many letters added to the end, including LGBTQ, which stands for Queer or "Gender-Queer" which includes the spectrum of people who choose to present as BOTH genders. Fundamentally, however, the term LGBT was intended to be as inclusive as possible. The Bisexual covers the widest possible range of sexual preferences and Transgender covers the widest possible range of sexual identities.


Is that really so hard? :straightface:

Thoughts?

It is our nature as people who have lived so much of our lives in secret, the nature of those who still feel that they must keep their secrets from many of those closest to them in their lives. It is our nature to feel that we are excluded from everything and everyone, that we are so different that we could never be accepted or loved. Some of us will never be truly free to be truly honest with everyone in our lives about who and what we are. However, we can realize that others in the LGBT community have shared those feelings at different points in their lives, that they have experienced the same sense of isolation, and that we are ALL striving for the safety of never having to live our lives in mortal fear that our secrets will be discovered.

[Marleena]

The LGB has their shit together. The T part seems to be a mess. Oh well.:)

[Angela Campbell]

If a group cannot even accept a name - description - then how can they be supported by any group like LGBT? Like it or not the T is for everyone here. (except for the GG's)

[Rogina B]

Funny thing is the "B" slides on through! The only way you can show it to the world is to have a guy kissing on you from one side and a girl kissing on you from the other while walking in the Pride parade! Think about it! That is why it slides through! And Q covers everything that isn't covered by the other initials..nothing derogatory about it..

[linda allen]

...... Queer encompasses Crossdressers, as well as plenty of other people who have fetishes and various other things that scare middle america! ...........

You're kidding, right? Or you've lost your mind. Queer is a slang tern for homosexuals. Not a nice term either.

Many, perhaps most crossdressers are heterosexual males.

Many years ago, it meant "odd". Most folks don't use it that way any more.

[Kimberly Kael]

I've always felt that we were excluded from the lgbt community for the simple reason that the majority of us aren't gay.

... and you think the situation is different for anyone else under the transgender umbrella? A lot of the trans women I know are straight, but they're still proudly associated with the LGBT community. Building trust with anyone who is different requires a little effort and there are challenges on both sides. There are crossdressers who are obviously homophobic, and LGB individuals who can't relate their struggle to crossdressers. So what? If CDers can't build ties with the rest of the LGBT community, they have zero hope of bridging the chasm with typical straight folk.


No, I don't believe so. I am a straight male crossdresser. Nothing "transgender" about me.

Your gender expression is exclusively associated by most of society with the gender opposite your identity. That transgression of gender norms is what puts you in the transgender category for most.


xxxxgender is about the gender (expression)

It's not just about gender expression, which is where the obvious area where CDers differ from their vanilla peers. It's also about gender identity, which is often what distinguishes the transitioning subset of our community from those who don't really identify strongly opposite their assigned gender. Both are generally included in the transgender umbrella.

The term transsexual is interesting because it describes an aspect of sexual identity, not orientation. It's accurate enough in my case, but I tend to prefer transgender because my sexuality is completely irrelevant in most contexts. When it is relevant the identity "lesbian" seems to suit me best.

[vanitysumers]

crossdressers or part of the transgendered community

[Julie Bender]

I'm right with you all the way up to the last paragraph, Rebecca. For me, I'm not looking to expand anyone's horizons or contribute to their voter base. I simply try to positively effect those that I come into contact with,whoever they may be. Being able to move about freely, without the fear of intimidation or threats is about as deep as I go on any grand scheme of acceptance. Great question though. Thanks.

Well said sheilagirl! So combine yours & rebeccalynne's statements and it's accurate.
I am G G and I have enjoyed dressing my cd but honestly i read all the time about girls and their s/o getting jumped for it beaten etc....I don't want straights to be uncomfortable either but we need to be able to walk out of a grocer safely it has up or what we do as we go about our days.

[Tracii G]

See what always happens nobody can agree on anything.Seems too many are are hung up on what label refers to them and can't see the whole picture.
How can you ever get anywhere if you alienate yourself from a group/groups that are offering help and willing to give you a voice and a platform to be heard?
If you are so displeased start a group of your own tailored to your out look and go from there.
Julie Bender I agree with you it should be that way but sadly its not in some places.Thats where a group that can effect legislation can help.
It worked in my town.

[Rogina B]

I'm out, proud and feel part of the movement to treat everyone as equals, regardless of sexual orientation or gender identity / expression. I felt very much accepted at the Pride parade here in San Antonio on Saturday. The more we can be open and set good examples, the more we will find ourselves tolerated under the law and eventually accepted by society. I don't care what acronyms people prefer; we are all queer in some way!
I totally agree! People have got to work past their personal hangups and see the "bigger picture" that leads toward more acceptance by those that have an intolerant mindset.

[Julie Bender]

Wow debbiel! Thank you for the insight!
Much love
Julie

[Leona]

I think that if you have any part of you, large or small, that considers yourself someone of the opposite gender or of a gender that's not male or female, you should adopt the label "transgender" as a political label, regardless of how well you do or don't identify with it.

As far as politics are concerned, we need the self-identified transgender population to skyrocket to somewhere near an accurate number. We need to stay allied with the LGB part. And we need to have some of our own initiatives where we bring the LGB and other folks along as allies, with attention on us.

We each need to do the little things that make a difference in our immediate world. In the other thread, that would mean Kimberly would have said something to the older lady about wanting to stay in the women's department (I realize she got taken by surprise, not judging what she did, just pointing it out as an example). If you see someone wearing something you like, say it. If that means saying you'd like to wear it yourself, go right ahead. If that person is a GG, she'll be flattered and probably curious about you. You've just handed her some acceptance. If that person is a CD or in any other way TG, you've just outed yourself to them and given them an opportunity to either continue passing or go ahead and out themselves to you. You've just opened the closet door a tad.

We need to recognize that the MTF side is the more visible side right now and make sure not to leave our FTM brothers hanging.

It's really very simple at a certain point. If you want your rights, you need to throw in with the T in LGBT because that's who's fighting for your rights. If you don't care about yours, but do want freedom and equality for all, you can stay in the closet and be a straight ally. But at this point in history, whether you want to be an activist or not, your life and the life of all who come after us could very well depend on whether you sit on the sidelines or jump in. So think carefully about what you decide.

[Greenie]

You're kidding, right? Or you've lost your mind. Queer is a slang tern for homosexuals. Not a nice term either.

Many, perhaps most crossdressers are heterosexual males.

Many years ago, it meant "odd". Most folks don't use it that way any more.

The word queer can still be derogatory but is being reclaimed and often times LGBT will end with a q so LGBTQ. Queer in the reclaimed sense stands for anyone who is sexually different but may or may not mean gay. Queer covers any type of gender or sexual attitudes that are outside of the mainstream. Unfortunately is has had a negative connotation but the queer community is trying to take it back to redefine what it used to be. You can be Queer and still have a heterosexual orientation if you have unusual sexual or gender identities, philosophies or habits. This is why some fetishes are considered queer. Linda, while I can see your immediate dislike of the term, its kind of like how "gay" is a slang term now. Words have lifespans and I think queer is coming back around. It was used as commonplace at the pride festival I went to. Not as derogatory.

[Julie Gaum]

A volunteer please to tell me what "cisgender" means. The term seems to be used more often recently but I fail to find it in my gender dictionary.
To those who believe that the CD community must remain in the folds of the LBGT and not seek understanding of our own uniqueness by
fighting our own battle BECAUSE we either can't agree what and why we are what we are OR because too many of our sisters, for good or not so good reasons, want to remain all or partially in the closet --- may I ask why, after all the giant strides made in recent years by the LGBTs, that only one professional football, basketball or baseball player has come out publicly as being gay? Think about that!
Julie
Thought for the day: "Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes."
HAPPY 4th!

[Leona]

cisgender simply means people who live in the binary gender system and identify with their assigned-at-birth gender. Someone else here used "muggles" for the same meaning. :)

The position I put forward is that we continue the alliance with LGB's while taking our own actions independent of the alliance for our own sake. I read your post and it seems like you're suggesting that this "compromise" position of mine is in disagreement with your own position. Are you suggesting severing that alliance and going on our own?

[Julie Gaum]

Leona, First thanks for the cis definition-appreciated. Sorry if I was vague ---just wanted to keep it brief, but no I agree with you fully that we have to keep some sort of alliance even after that day comes when CDs can branch out to explain why they are different from LGs. As Rog pointed out the Bs sort of fall betwen the cracks as they may also be in the CD community. As far as the "Ts" are concerned there we have a problem in definition since originally it stood for "Transsexual" in the context of GLBT. Eventually I would hope that the "T" goes back to meaning TS and the TGs would be our platform. For the member who thinks that defining the motives behind the huge diversity we find in TGs is just BS and the flailing of arms may I ask you to consider working publicly to eliminate the entire population calling themselves G or L or B or T and just lump them altogether and call them "the different people"? Silly isn't it?
Julie

[Kimberly Kael]

First thanks for the cis definition-appreciated.

Leona did a good job of getting the basic meaning across. Technically, cis is a Latin prefix meaning something like "on the same side of", whereas trans means "on the opposite side of."


As Rog pointed out the Bs sort of fall betwen the cracks as they may also be in the CD community.

For similar reasons, too. Both groups tend to be relatively invisible because they can fall back on straight/cisgender privilege. For many it's quite possible to remain entirely closeted and live a fulfilling life. That double-edged sword makes things much simpler until recognition would be useful. Then it gets very difficult because it looks like you've been doing fine all along, and no one can imagine why you'd want to complicate your life. It can go the other way, too. My aunt is bisexual but dated women primarily until she met and married a wonderful man. I'm sure there are some in the family who think of her as an ex-lesbian instead of bi.


I ask you to consider working publicly to eliminate the entire population calling themselves G or L or B or T and just lump them altogether and call them "the different people"? Silly isn't it?

Only because you picked a silly name. We already do use gay to refer to lesbians, queer to refer to everyone in our community, and LGBT really is a collective term we use with enormous regularity. It's not so silly, after all. As individuals it may make sense for us to quibble with terminology and try to describe how we feel, but as a group it's politically valuable to align interests. You could also argue that another fairly common term for all of us is "gender variant." Attraction to the opposite sex is just one of many presumed norms.

[Badtranny]

As somebody who is actually IN the community and hangs pout with real "queers" I can tell you that queer is NOT a pejorative anymore. We have taken it back.

I can also tell you that those who are out and vocal in said community don't have a problem with CD's per se, but they DO have a problem with closeted people in general. Especially those that want the fellowship of the community when they're in the mood, but deny them at every opportunity so as not to out themselves. The animus towards CD's is mostly about their secretive, closeted nature coupled with the fact that most of them are militantly straight. I have many straight friends and I didn't know most of them were straight until I'd known them for awhile. Those that are comfortably straight rarely announce it, unlike the average CD'r.

[Stark]

Hi Julie,
"cis" is a prefix adopted from Latin and means roughly "on this side of." It's used to describe people who identify with the sex they were assigned at birth.

[Leona]

I can also tell you that those who are out and vocal in said community don't have a problem with CD's per se, but they DO have a problem with closeted people in general. Especially those that want the fellowship of the community when they're in the mood, but deny them at every opportunity so as not to out themselves. The animus towards CD's is mostly about their secretive, closeted nature coupled with the fact that most of them are militantly straight. I have many straight friends and I didn't know most of them were straight until I'd known them for awhile. Those that are comfortably straight rarely announce it, unlike the average CD'r.

I think that if people want to remain closeted, they need to put forward a public face of being LGBT ally. That's the least they can do.

But being downright homophobic and/or transphobic while being a closeted CD is unacceptable. I don't even have words to describe how angry that idea makes me. I spent a long time denying to myself that I was a crossdresser, and in that entire time I vocally defended the rights of people to wear what they want, seek surgery if that's what they needed, and so forth. Because at that time, it wasn't about me, it was about what was right!

You can keep your identity a secret, but you can't use your cis privilege to hurt the rest of us.

[Rogina B]

As somebody who is actually IN the community and hangs pout with real "queers" I can tell you that queer is NOT a pejorative anymore. We have taken it back.

I can also tell you that those who are out and vocal in said community don't have a problem with CD's per se, but they DO have a problem with closeted people in general. secretive,
As the T ambassador for my UU church,I am also the only B on the welcoming committee.I have been asked more than once after the service to explain the psych of a B..The misconception is that "straight" people think we "go with just anyone". As a committee,I see that the closeted gay members are the ones that,"because they are comfortable on the down low" they are resistant to joining with the very dramatic and demonstrative gays that are highly visible. It is mostly the same situation for the L's that are "partnered up". Not eager to put it out there!

[Rianna Humble]

Briana, you have it wrong by 180 degrees. It is not that the LGBT community excludes you, it is you yourself who excludes the LGBT community by standing to one side shouting "I am not gay!"

I disagree with the OP's suggestion of splitting CD's off from the Trans community as much as I disagree with your refusal to accept LGBT help because you dislike the sexuality of one part of that community. Go back and reread the history of Stonewall, I'm pretty sure that the cross-dressers who were being attacked by police didn't shout out to the rioters "Eww! Don't stand up for us, we are not gay!"

[Sandieland]

As someone who has known he was Bi for about 33 years now, my crossdressing seems to strike at a need inside that is essentially non-sexual... at least for me. I put aside my CDing some years ago and am only now in a position to start again...and with a vengeance. It's as if this other person inside of me needs to step on out for some fresh air - it's just that she needs to have new clothes and work on that damned makeup a bit more. LOL

[TheMissus]

Wow, so confusing! So a cisgendered straight man who identifies FULLY as a man but has a sexuality that involves fantasising at being a woman and presenting this way - what is he?? Is he transgendered or just kinky??

I know my H doesn't want to join a movement or anything as what he does is very private, but I can see where these labels get confusing as he's also nothing like the men here who identify and dress as women full time. I imagine what my H does is actually insulting. So can one label really define anyone who's ever CD? Or is this like suggesting all people who've ever had a same sex fantasy are gay?

Yep, very confusing.

[Leona]

TheMissus: We had a pretty active thread about transvestic fetishism. It would be worth it for you to dig that one up and read about it. Even if not that thread, googling the phrase should give you some stuff to read.

TF's are still classed as transgender under APA guidelines (the DSM). But for that, "transgender" is a medical word, not a political one, and we most often use it in a political sense here.

And no, what he does isn't insulting to us. There are plenty of people here who identify along similar lines. The main question is whether or not it's hurting his life, and if it's hurting his relationship with you, then it's a problem for which he may need counseling.

[Rianna Humble]

So are you saying that nothing your husband ever does crosses the gender divide? What about when he presents as a woman, is he not then crossing the gender divide? Trans means across, why is that so hard for some people?

[TheMissus]

Thanks Leona, I'll have to look up that thread as I've heard Transvestic Fetishism before and I think my H has said this of himself, along with the autogynephilia thing. I do know he spent some time pondering what all this was (I might have made him, lol) and I think he'd almost hoped it was more a 'feminine identity' issue as there's less stigma with that. But reality is he does it as a sex thing and even when fantasizing about looking like a women he's STILL a guy ogling her. I'm equally confused about this, lol.

But this is off thread topic so thanks anyway for the info and I'll go have a read :)


So are you saying that nothing your husband ever does crosses the gender divide? What about when he presents as a woman, is he not then crossing the gender divide? Trans means across, why is that so hard for some people?

I guess I don't spend much time around trans people so I'm a little ignorant of the words. But yes, when you put it that way my H's fantasies are a trans thing as he does cross gender lines in his head and clothing - I just didn't know if the other groups wanted fetish types included. I guess that clears this up for me.

[Vickie_CDTV]

I guess I don't spend much time around trans people so I'm a little ignorant of the words. But yes, when you put it that way my H's fantasies are a trans thing as he does cross gender lines in his head and clothing - I just didn't know if the other groups wanted fetish types included. I guess that clears this up for me.

Your husband is probably a "transvestic fetishist". Statistically speaking, TVFs are the largest group of people who crossdress (in the most broad sense of crossdressing.) They are often looked down upon by the more out and visible transgender community, presumably because some who are TS feel it diminishes their suffering in the eyes of the general public, in that TS is often confused with TVF. Some also think that if a man is TVF he does sexually inappropriate things like expose themselves like a flasher or something, which is not true (some men who do sexually inappropriate things are TVF, but not all TVF do sexually inappropriate things.)

One of the groups that make up the "transgender population", in its most broad definition, are TVFs.

[Rianna Humble]

I guess I don't spend much time around trans people so I'm a little ignorant of the words.

My words were too harsh, you did not deserve the criticism, I am sorry

[Marleena]

It is not that the LGBT community excludes you, it is you yourself who excludes the LGBT community by standing to one side shouting "I am not gay!"

That is a recurring theme in these type of threads. Then there are those who reject being called transgender for whatever reason. Representation for people who are gender non conforming is a good thing in my books.

[Jacqueline Winona]

If nothing else, I think we've established that there is a wide variety of opinions on what is transgender. And there should be, there is a subjective element to this definition. Here is more food for thought: You may have heard that the California Senate recently passed a bill allowing Trnasgender students to play on athletic teams and use facilities consistent with the gender that they associate with. I was curious about how the Senate defined transgender, as every news organization and every trans support group (and many others) ran this story last week. Here is the actual language of the bill: " A pupil shall be permitted to participate in sex-segregated school programs, and activities, and facilities, including athletic teams and competitions, and use facilities consistent with his or her gender identity, irrespective of the gender listed on the pupil’s records."
I agree with using this to define transgender- its about identity in my opinion, and those in my book are the people who should be considered part of the T in LGBT. I don't relate with that definition personally, and no matter how many times people can tell me I'm part of that I won't agree with you. It isn't about being ashamed to associate with the gay community, I've been the only hetero male at my gay and Lesbian friends parties on several occasions and have nothing but good things to say about by experiences. It's frankly more about being honest with everyone to me- I haven't ever been told I couldn't marry whom I wanted, haven't been discriminated against because I like to dress once in a while. Once or twice someone may have been mean to me when I was trying to buy clothes, but that's hardly discrimination. As far as supporting people who do associate with the LGBT groups, as I said earlier, I got your back and always have. And I think most typical crossdressers feel the same way.

[flatlander_48]

In thinking about this from the perspective of being a bisexual and a crossdresser, I would broaden out the definitions. In other words, we are all what is considered sexual minorities. As such, that should be our unifying point.

[Eryn]

^^^^ As a straight CDer I agree wholeheartedly.

[Julie Gaum]

I must get back on to ask Vickie to kindly hold your conclusions until you've spent more time, as most of us have, to learn what makes
this diverse group of members do what they do (which also varies widely). To say in effect that most CDs are TVFs is very far off in several aspects. I'm not being unkind just asking for you to dig a lot deeper.
julie

[AmyGaleRT]

The word queer can still be derogatory but is being reclaimed and often times LGBT will end with a q so LGBTQ.

I thought the "Q" in "LGBTQ" stood for "Questioning," as in, somebody who might be one of the "LGBT" but doesn't know for sure.

Actually, I think they use a bigger acronym now, "LGBTQQIA", where the second "Q" does stand for "Queer" in the sense you mean. (The other letters are for "Intersexed" and "Allies.")

You know, I got told "Have a gay day!" at Pride and didn't really think anything of it. It just fit the setting. :)

- Amy

[RebeccaLynne]

... and have read every reply thus far. I would respond to each of you individually if I had the time, but the responsibilities of earning a living and and tending to my obligations takes precedence.


I can also tell you that those who are out and vocal in said community don't have a problem with CD's per se, but they DO have a problem with closeted people in general.

Oh, great... if as a genetic male I choose not to dress as a woman in public, I'm on their s*** list... that's really an incentive to solicit their acceptance... :brolleyes:


Especially those that want the fellowship of the community when they're in the mood, but deny them at every opportunity so as not to out themselves. The animus towards CD's is mostly about their secretive, closeted nature coupled with the fact that most of them are militantly straight. I have many straight friends and I didn't know most of them were straight until I'd known them for awhile. Those that are comfortably straight rarely announce it, unlike the average CD'r
.

I disagree totally with your premise quoted above. I constantly argue in hostile territory for the right of people to love who they choose without discrimination by those who don't understand that position.

See the first section I've underlined... there you go, beating up on those who aren't "out" like yourself... you're proving my point. Yes, I realize you're transsexual; however, there are many here who aren't. We're just crossdressers, right?

On to the last section I've underlined quoting you in the above... correct me if I'm wrong, but do you have issues with heterosexuals? And if you do, I find that to be intensely offensive. At least as offensive as you believe "straights" are to "gays"?...

If you'd like to pursue this in private messaging, I'm amenable... I'll even provide my phone number in order to dispense with the formalities, and have a heart to heart conversation. Maybe we can avoid having this thread closed prematurely by sullying it with personal attacks, either real or perceived.


I think that if people want to remain closeted, they need to put forward a public face of being LGBT ally. That's the least they can do.

But being downright homophobic and/or transphobic while being a closeted CD is unacceptable. I don't even have words to describe how angry that idea makes me. I spent a long time denying to myself that I was a crossdresser, and in that entire time I vocally defended the rights of people to wear what they want, seek surgery if that's what they needed, and so forth. Because at that time, it wasn't about me, it was about what was right!

You can keep your identity a secret, but you can't use your cis privilege to hurt the rest of us.

Thank you, Leona. I've known I was a crossdresser since the age of four (although I certainly didn't yet know the meaning of my feelings at that time), I've never denied being one... I knew who I was, and was OK with it. I agree wholeheartedly with the balance of your statement. I've done the same, and it really is all about the principle.


I disagree with the OP's suggestion of splitting CD's off from the Trans community...

Please quote specifically where I (the original poster said that... 'cause it isn't in existence. Never was, never did. Nothing has been edited.


Go back and reread...

I'd suggest you do... and don't try to put words down, attributed to me, that I've never written... do your research! :straightface:

[Badtranny]

... Oh, great... if as a genetic male I choose not to dress as a woman in public, I'm on their s*** list... that's really an incentive to solicit their acceptance... :brolleyes:

You don't need their acceptance. Just know that closeted people are looked upon as interlopers. It is what it is. Don't moan at me about it.


I disagree totally with your premise quoted above. I constantly argue in hostile territory for the right of people to love who they choose without discrimination by those who don't understand that position.

...and that's commendable, but please don't pretend that you are not an exception. Most closet cases (and I used to be one of them) are silent at best about the rights of LGBT folks. If they weren't, there would be no political debate about it. If every CD stood up in support of alternative lifestyles like you do then the sociopolitical landscape would look completely different.



If you'd like to pursue this in private messaging, I'm amenable...

There's nothing I have to say that can't be said publicly. I detest private conversations because I want everything I say to be on record. I don't frequent this forum to make friends to chat with. I am here to log my thoughts and opinions as I go through my transition. When I finally leave I will have left behind a body of knowledge that will help countless people for years. I'm here to cut away the poo and get to what's real about a gender transition. Like it or not, I write about what I experience, and I've experienced closeted people getting very little respect in the LGBT community.

[Leona]

In a roundabout way, you two have already agreed with each other, just pointing that out. Rebecca agreed with my statement agreeing with Melissa's.... It's starting to take on a Pythonesque tone, so let's just go all the way and be Python girls with terrible falsettoes.


There's nothing I have to say that can't be said publicly. I detest private conversations because I want everything I say to be on record. I don't frequent this forum to make friends to chat with. I am here to log my thoughts and opinions as I go through my transition. When I finally leave I will have left behind a body of knowledge that will help countless people for years. I'm here to cut away the poo and get to what's real about a gender transition. Like it or not, I write about what I experience, and I've experienced closeted people getting very little respect in the LGBT community.

That emphasized part, absolutely. I come from a Free Software background where transparency is key. A project can live or die based solely on how transparent it is.

Of course, that means I'm used to flame wars developing and moderators letting them run their course for awhile... :)

[busker]

as a group we get along fine and hardly need to spit hairs by suggesting that CD is something different from TG
Just as an example, try this line with engineers. There are electronic engineers, automotive engineers, there are engineers on trains, sanitary engineers, etc etc, etc, Do you really think people want to be in just ONE box?
The value for being an independent group is that it is not "guilty" by association. If CDs are in with LGBTG, ordinary folks might think we are all gay or bi or on the way to womanhood. I for one don't want any of those associations, because I am none any of those things.
There are a number of musicians here and I'd bet they want to be known by what instrument they play rather than just be a "musician". I'm a woodwind player generally, a sax player specifically, and alto sax is my main horn. It is different from being a tenor player--think Stan Getz vs Charlie Parker.
there is NO value to society in being a crossdresser--it is something quite personal, whereas being gay or lesbian has more of a biological nature and there fore can be more easily explained. They very likely don't see us as having the biological aspects and therefore what we do is entirely personal ( that probably best applies to fetish dressers and some others), and out of the realm of LBGTG. Do you see any democrats in the TEA Party?
I do think that if there are sufficient numbers around the world, that an organization composed entirely of CDs is the best way to progress to public acceptance, if that is really what people want. A sponsor, a magazine, a radio program, a tv series that functions the same way Big Bang Theory functions for science nerds. Tagging along on someone's coat tails will only get us a face full of dust and heel marks on our foreheads.

[RebeccaLynne]

In a roundabout way, you two have already agreed with each other, just pointing that out. Rebecca agreed with my statement agreeing with Melissa's.... It's starting to take on a Pythonesque tone, so let's just go all the way and be Python girls with terrible falsettoes.

Leona, thanks for your mediation... Melissa isn't here to make friends or converts, nor am I... I really ask only that all of us remain open-minded and consider the opinions of others.

Admittedly, you lost me at "Pythonesque"; I don't know the reference, as I'm not a scholar in regards to literature... is it Shakespearian, perhaps?

As far as being "Python girls"... I'm sure I can strangle my prey, if provoked... and swallow them whole! :devil:

Falsettoes? I can speak more softly, but certainly couldn't approximate a semblance of a passable female voice, even moderately terrible... a genetic male deficiency, I suppose... :heehee:

[busker]

that they dress primarily for entertainment purposes. They do tend to be gay men,

Of course there is another to view this in that it is a JOB (entertainment is immaterial) that a gay man can have without being ostracized. He is accepted by fellow gay men, is perhaps thought "harmless" because he is an "entertainer" and it works for that person because he wears the fashions that he would like to wear ordinarily but can't. hollywood is filled with gay actors, some of whom are out but one suspects that they got the job perhaps in part BECAUSE they were gay--misery loves company right. So, a director is gay, wants companionship and finds out that Tab Hunter is just his sort of "entertaine-or Rock Hudson, of James Dean or ..... There are a number of professions that seem to attract gays--nursing is one. Is it because they make better nurses or more easily fit in with the women , though that seems contradictory because we know that gay men like MEN, not women.

[Leona]

Admittedly, you lost me at "Pythonesque"; I don't know the reference, as I'm not a scholar in regards to literature... is it Shakespearian, perhaps?

Monty Python. :) British comedy troupe. Had a TV show, and then a few movies, of which my favorite is Life of Brian. They had, I think, just one GG in the troupe. The rest of the female roles were played by the men, using really bad falsettoes for female voices.

[Vickie_CDTV]

I must get back on to ask Vickie to kindly hold your conclusions until you've spent more time, as most of us have, to learn what makes
this diverse group of members do what they do (which also varies widely). To say in effect that most CDs are TVFs is very far off in several aspects. I'm not being unkind just asking for you to dig a lot deeper.
julie

I did not say all CDs are TVFs. I meant her spouse, from her description, is probably a TVF, and that statistically speaking it was much more likely than her husband being a TS. Maybe I was not clear about what I meant, so I revised my post.

I have been involved with the trans community for almost 20 years, in both a personal and then later a professional capacity as well.

[traci_k]

For those who say T's need their own organization, last week the Gender Justice League held a Trans-Pride Parade in Seattle a day or so before the regular Pride Parade. It's starting to come together, if we would get involved in our local towns (safely- not all locales are quite so open-minded), we can make a difference.

Hugs All!

[Rianna Humble]

I disagree with the OP's suggestion of splitting CD's off from the Trans communityPlease quote specifically where I (the original poster said that... 'cause it isn't in existence. Never was, never did. Nothing has been edited.
So when you talk of
adding two letters... LGBTCD when the T already encompasses cross-dressers, what is your purpose? I made the obvious assumption that since you wanted CD specified separately from T that you intended to separate the two groups in peoples' minds. If that is not true, then why split them out?



Go back and reread the history of Stonewall, I'm pretty sure that the cross-dressers who were being attacked by police didn't shout out to the rioters "Eww! Don't stand up for us, we are not gay!"

I'd suggest you do... and don't try to put words down, attributed to me, that I've never written... do your research! :straightface:

The context of my words in your second quote clearly shows that they are a direct reply to Briana, so why (unless your intention is to create conflict) do you treat them as if they were addressed to you?

[linda allen]

This thread is like so many Internet forum threads, there's a whole lot or writing, but very little reading. What little reading is done only with the thought of how one is going to reply to the past that has just been read.

With that in mind, if you put a different definition to a word than the general public and use that word in conversations, you will be misunderstood at best, taken for an idiot or punched at worst.

If you call a person "transgendered" or "queer" when they don't believe they are, you have put yourself in that situation. Beware.

[Julogden]

Around here, CD's are part of the "T" in LGBT. I just don't CD's who feel they aren't part of the transgender community. In the Chicago area, we've been rubbing elbows with the LGB for decades, "expanding their horizons", as you suggest.

CD's are part of the "T".

Carol

[flatlander_48]

I can also tell you that those who are out and vocal in said community don't have a problem with CD's per se, but they DO have a problem with closeted people in general. Especially those that want the fellowship of the community when they're in the mood, but deny them at every opportunity so as not to out themselves. The animus towards CD's is mostly about their secretive, closeted nature coupled with the fact that most of them are militantly straight.

The attitude towards bisexuals was similar, but I think a lot of that has dissipated over the years. At the root of it is strength in numbers. When it comes time to vote for marriage equality, etc., does it really make a difference WHERE the votes come from? In my home state, we have legal same-sex marriage, but the GENDA (gender expression non-discrimination act) legislation has stalled. That's the one that has a lot of implications for us, but by ourselves I don't think we have the wherewithal to gain enough support.

[Dana L]

I think we definatly should be considered under the transgendered umbrella since we are all at some point of transgendered. Besides we put it all out there more than the lesbians or gays, they don't have to announce it to everyone they come in contact with. Once we're dressed we are who we are for all the world to see unless you are one of the fourtunate ones that can totaly pass. So I wecome them since we are all in this together and we are stronger as one.

[flatlander_48]

I can see how the straight crossdressers among us can have a problem aligning themselves with the gay rights movement (speaking in broad terms). However, be aware of the larger picture. Remember that there were scores of whites involved in the black civil rights movement. There were men who were strong supporters of the women's rights movement. Political alignment does NOT require that you be of that group.

[Angela Campbell]

Do you wonder how a gay or lesbian feels about being grouped with us? They don't wear the clothes of another gender!

[Kathy Smith]

Hmmmm....

Lesbian
Gay
Bi-sexual
The others

I'm happy with that. :)

[flatlander_48]

Do you wonder how a gay or lesbian feels about being grouped with us? They don't wear the clothes of another gender!

The are always exceptions to every premise...

[Kimberly Kael]

Do you wonder how a gay or lesbian feels about being grouped with us? They don't wear the clothes of another gender!

I've spent a fair bit of time with gay and lesbian activists, and they've been very supportive of the transgender community. The year I went to Out & Equal (a workplace equality conference) I met a lot of people who were trying to understand how better to accommodate the transgender community at work. We really do have a shared struggle in many ways: people express disapproval of all of us for regions reasons, our spouses may get uncomfortable about being perceived as being in a same sex relationship, and we all make easy targets for bullies.

There are obviously individuals who feel differently, but then there are gay men who don't want to have anything to do with lesbians or vice versa, and members of both groups who think bisexuals are confused. It doesn't mean much. There are self-absorbed people everywhere who are unable to empathize with anyone else.

[Leona]

For those who say T's need their own organization, last week the Gender Justice League held a Trans-Pride Parade in Seattle a day or so before the regular Pride Parade. It's starting to come together, if we would get involved in our local towns (safely- not all locales are quite so open-minded), we can make a difference.

Hugs All!

I looked into a similar group in Austin and all I found was a group that meets monthly in restaurants I can't afford, dressed or drab, your choice.

I didn't go to the Pride parade last weekend, so I can't speak from a true position of knowledge, but the LGBs I know around here are very anti-trans. I have a good friend who moved to El Paso a year ago who stumbled across a crossdresser, and then made several Facebook posts going basically "tranny this, tranny that, I hate trannies, they're so pretentious, why can't they just choose a sex?" To which I answered "The T in LGBT stands for 'Transgender', and that's the word you should be using." Came within an inch of dropping him like a ton of bricks, but thought maybe I could hang in there and educate the poor boy.

It's ok to be a "butch" lesbian or an effeminate man, but heaven forbid you should want to wear her clothes. :/

I need to do more research. I'd be totally interested in forming a political/social activist group for trans people here in Austin. I just need to make sure there isn't one already that I should join.

[Acastina]

Thanks for this plain statement. We are indeed a part of the "T" in "LGBT" (or LGBTQ or LGBGTQQ or whatever new slice someone wants to posit). My historical favorite was LBGT, which stood for Lesbigators. That pretty much floats my boat. Certainly a more useful and endearing species in general than legislators...


The attitude towards bisexuals was similar, but I think a lot of that has dissipated over the years. At the root of it is strength in numbers. When it comes time to vote for marriage equality, etc., does it really make a difference WHERE the votes come from? In my home state, we have legal same-sex marriage, but the GENDA (gender expression non-discrimination act) legislation has stalled. That's the one that has a lot of implications for us, but by ourselves I don't think we have the wherewithal to gain enough support.

I read a book (I think about 15 years ago) that examined the utility of non-discrimination statutes vis-á-vis larger societal remedies such as marriage and military equality. It made a compelling argument that laws forbidding discrimination had less effect than opening doors in the more fundamental institutions of equality in a society. In other words, making it illegal to discriminate in employment and housing matters less than normalizing participation of minorities in civil marriage and military service, both of which command inherent respect. I think it's a good argument, and it's been gratifying to see this larger equality emerge over the years. The more equal we are all seen by each other, the less need there will be for mandatory corrective regulations.

So, rejoice in marriage equality in New York, as we do here in California. Rejoice in the end of DADT, even if a TG bias remains to be dealt with (I knew a post-op TS who remained in the military in the 1980s, before DADT, and served ably). For these will do us more good in the long run than all the nondiscrimination rules we can pass.

[Rhonda Darling]

Not to throw cold water, but my impression is that more often than not, when a state, county, town, village, or municipality is considering some new protection of rights statute, rule, etc. for the GLBTQ? community, the "T" gets thrown under the bus as a compromise to get the law passed to protect the 'overall' community, "Ts" be damned. YMMD.

Rhonda

[Leona]

I read a book (I think about 15 years ago) that examined the utility of non-discrimination statutes vis-á-vis larger societal remedies such as marriage and military equality. It made a compelling argument that laws forbidding discrimination had less effect than opening doors in the more fundamental institutions of equality in a society. In other words, making it illegal to discriminate in employment and housing matters less than normalizing participation of minorities in civil marriage and military service, both of which command inherent respect. I think it's a good argument, and it's been gratifying to see this larger equality emerge over the years. The more equal we are all seen by each other, the less need there will be for mandatory corrective regulations.

So, rejoice in marriage equality in New York, as we do here in California. Rejoice in the end of DADT, even if a TG bias remains to be dealt with (I knew a post-op TS who remained in the military in the 1980s, before DADT, and served ably). For these will do us more good in the long run than all the nondiscrimination rules we can pass.

Indeed, what you say suggests that those of us who are married to supportive spouses should be out publicly so we can help change attitudes just by being. For every person who gets away with a comment like "What kind of woman would want to be with THAT?" there's probably at least one who says that to his wife and she says "There's no questioning love, and I think it's great that they're together."

[Rhonda Darling]

I can see how the straight crossdressers among us can have a problem aligning themselves with the gay rights movement (speaking in broad terms). However, be aware of the larger picture. Remember that there were scores of whites involved in the black civil rights movement.

There were men who were strong supporters of the women's rights movement. Political alignment does NOT require that you be of that group.

On that last --- couldn't agree more. TELL THE GLB community that!

RD


Without outing luca this weekend to my friends I asked what they thought about CDers. I think its funny because even in the LGB world.... they don't get it.

I asked the girls, all lesbians and some of the gay men and got two responses. Well they are like drag queens where they are gay men who dress as women, but they want to be more realistic. Or aren't CDers transsexual. Some of them thought CDing was a gender issue, while some thought it was purely sexual.

How can a community that knows NOTHING about you accept you and welcome you into the fold as one of their own.

When I tell people that the majority of CDers are hetero males they look at me all confused like I am a crazy person.

Greenie, you've nailed it!

I was in Florida on business earlier this year and Rhonda went along (actually, traveled en femme the whole way - first time ever). Rhonda was itching to get out in the evening and, being in a less than liberal part of the state, went on line and found what appeared as the only GLB bar in town. Went in and was initially ignored by the wait staff until Andrew, the owner came up, intro'd himself and we struck up a conversation. I closed the place at 3:30 am after hours of explaining CD and TS to a huge GLB group. They had no idea, no prior comprehension or understanding -- nothing -- about us. I think I changed some attitudes that night, but that same work needs to be done throughout the GLB communities.

Ladies, get going!!

RD


We not only belong to the LGBT movement, we are the original T in LGBT. The word Transvestite (which only means by definition, Crossdresser, or dressing in the clothes of the opposite gender. The word Transvestite was around way before Transsexual. So we are the original T, in LGBT, like it or not!

Tina is so right -- to a point. The Stonewall riots in NYC involved transvestites - the gay crossdressers of the time. Not show people, but gays who portrayed as women in clubs, bars etc. now it is difficult to find anyone under 50 in the LGBT community who know the history, or who care. The outcome (long term) of Stonewall was the long slugfest battle for LGB rights a "war" they have won in many places, and are wining in most other places. The hetero trans and CD is suckling hind teat on that front.

RD

[Leona]

Indeed, for anybody who doesn't know, the Stonewall Riots essentially birthed the modern LGBT movement. Oddly enough, those riots directly correspond to Rosa Parks wanting to sit in the front of the bus, in that the riots did for the LGBT world what Rosa Park's passive defiance did to the civil rights movement.

I always wonder why the civil rights movement didn't include LGBTs until recently. Even feminism is only just now realizing that women's rights depend on LGBT rights, because among the reasons LGBTs are persecuted is because they are seen to be women. Even so, there's at least one feminist organization that explicitly excludes TG rights on the basis that we crossdressers try to have it both ways. We get male privilege when we want it, and female privilege when we want that, but we never have to suffer the way women do.

[RebeccaLynne]

Rianna, I'll try this again... my post #95 quoting your post #81:


I disagree with the OP's suggestion of splitting CD's off from the Trans community...

That was your inference, not what I wrote.


Go back and reread...

My intention was for you to re-read the opening post. As I've pointed out, your inference was mistaken.

Now, on to your post #104:


So when you talk of


adding two letters... LGBTCD


when the T already encompasses cross-dressers, what is your purpose? I made the obvious assumption that since you wanted CD specified separately from T that you intended to separate the two groups in peoples' minds. If that is not true, then why split them out?

Not all crossdressers are transgender or transsexuals. Just wearing the clothing of a gender other than your own doesn't make you T, unless your definition is much broader than mine... maybe that's the case.

And I feel you're being overly confrontational in asking, "What is your purpose?" with such a challenging presentation.

My purpose is not to separate, but to include, crossdressing under the LGBT umbrella. Nothing underlying or sinister, I can assure you.

Once again, your post #81 quoted in my post #95:


Go back and reread...

That's all I quoted, not what you've indicated in your post #104:


The context of my words in your second quote clearly shows that they are a direct reply to Briana, so why (unless your intention is to create conflict) do you treat them as if they were addressed to you?

Rianna, your response was a total misrepresentation, and completely erroneous. I think you might want to go back in and set the record straight.

My intention is to stimulate conversation and discussion in an area of interest to the community at-large... rather, I think it is you who may be more interested in creating conflict.

I'm just looking for people's thoughts on the subject at hand. :)

[Rogina B]

@RebeccaLynne...The T covers the crossdressing community as they give a "transgender presentation" while being "crossdressed". The Q is also important to add as it covers those that choose to present to the world in a "half baked" fashion..partially dressed as either gender..If we think of the word "queer" to mean odd,then we can have inclusion for those that choose to prance around their living rooms in a "tutu"..that is if we use "Q" to describe "odd". My opinion is that people need to see AND STAND UP FOR the bigger picture..which is acceptance of individual rights..

[Rianna Humble]

That's all I quoted, not what you've indicated in your post #104:
Precisely yoou took my words out of context in order to pretend that they were addressed to you. Once again you have deliberately removed what I was telling Brianna to reread.




Rianna, your response was a total misrepresentation, and completely erroneous. I think you might want to go back in and set the record straight.
Not misrepresentation at all Cross-dressers are crossing the gender divide which is the definition of Transgender.


I'm just looking for people's thoughts on the subject at hand. :)
You reject any that don't coincide with your agenda

[Marleena]

To answer the original question.

Rebecca you are as a CDer already included. You are part of the "T" in LGBT. No transitioning is required.

It really is that simple.

[NathalieX66]

I'm an out and about CD'er. I do wear dresses and womens' clothes in public.

I have not done HRT, but I have shoulder length hair and about over a year and a half's worth of laser and electrolysis to rid my facial hair.

I like my guy self....I also like my girl self.

I don't know what I am. Do I qualify as T in LGBT? I don't know.
Do I care? No.

[Jacqueline Winona]

Maybe this will answer the question once and for all: We are all correct! Taken from UC Berkeley's Gender Resource Center:
Transgender
Transgender (sometimes shortened to trans or TG) people are those whose psychological self ("gender identity") differs from the social expectations for the physical sex they were born with. To understand this, one must understand the difference between biological sex, which is one's body (genitals, chromosomes, ect.), and social gender, which refers to levels of masculinity and femininity. Often, society conflates sex and gender, viewing them as the same thing. But, gender and sex are not the same thing.Transgender people are those whose psychological self ("gender identity") differs from the social expectations for the physical sex they were born with. For example, a female with a masculine gender identity or who identifies as a man.
An umbrella term for transsexuals, cross-dressers (transvestites), transgenderists, gender queers, and people who identify as neither female nor male and/or as neither a man or as a woman. Transgender is not a sexual orientation;transgender people may have any sexual orientation. It is important to acknowledge that while some people may fit under this definition of transgender, they may not identify as such.

I bolded the last part on purpose, there is a subjective component to the second definition. And I expect that a lot of others will bold other parts to support their arguments or POV/ :)

[Leona]

I don't know what I am. Do I qualify as T in LGBT? I don't know.
Do I care? No.

If by identifying as transgender, you could make a positive difference in the world, would you go ahead and accept the label?

[Angela Campbell]

The definition is pretty clear but the bolded part is not part of the definition. It is simply explaining that some who are transgendered do not identify as such. Doesn't change the fact they are.

and Nathalie ...yes you do.

[Jacqueline Winona]

No, the entire paragraph is part of the definition. You could read it as two separate definitions ( It may not read as easily here as it does on the original site, but there are two separate paragraphs) but you can't read a subjective element into the first paragraph (gender identity) and not into the second. Bottom line as I see it is if you identify with the LGBTQ movement, you're a part of it. If you don't, you're not.

[GroovyChristy]

I think the problem here is the broadness of that one letter...T. We have a lot of trouble just defining ourselves, so how are we to define our place in the LGBT community? I know that the term "transgender" refers to those of us who have been born in the wrong type of body, but when I think of the word, I think "trans" + "gender." That is, anyone who transcends traditional gender roles or breaks the rules, so to speak, should be included. But that's semantics. Define T however you like. It is different for everyone (though there are common characteristics we all share).

In any case, it's not just LGBT anymore. The latest form I know of (it's hard to keep track of all those letters! haha) is LGBTQQIAAP: lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer, questioning, intersex, asexual, allies, and pansexual. Whew. I think all of us probably fall under at least two of these, with many of us belonging to more. I think Queer is all-encompassing though. Be proud!

[NathalieX66]

If by identifying as transgender, you could make a positive difference in the world, would you go ahead and accept the label?

sure, no problem. I embrace it.
Am I gender non-conformist? Absolutely. Am I transsexual?.....not really .
One is transsexual, not A transsexual......does that make sense?

[Leona]

Yes. Luckily transgender doesn't imply transsexual, no matter what the stereotypes the muggles may use.

I feel like the fundamental question in this thread is one of rights, and how best to approach claiming ours as crossdressers in particular. We need societal acceptance, if only so we can go out dressed up and not passing and be treated with respect and dignity, and not beat up.

So, to me, it's a political question. I don't identify as transgender either, but I'll proudly claim the label as my own for the sake of all my sisters and brothers that feel they live in some form of bondage. If I can make it easier for them to come out and be who they are, I will do it.

That's why I'm the mix-gender freak at the grocery store. Well that and it feels really interesting to have freshly shaved legs and a skirt in the frozen food aisle. That was weird. Cool, well, downright cold, but new to me.

[Kimberly Kael]

Not to throw cold water, but my impression is that more often than not, when a state, county, town, village, or municipality is considering some new protection of rights statute, rule, etc. for the GLBTQ? community, the "T" gets thrown under the bus as a compromise to get the law passed to protect the 'overall' community, "Ts" be damned. YMMD.

Gay, lesbian, and bisexual Americans have been thrown under the bus by straight people throughout history. What what finally turned things around for our brothers and sisters was coming out and refusing to be invisibile. The transgender community is decades behind in this struggle. We should be upset about being treated poorly, but we should also be the first ones to make waves about it. For too long we've been content to stay in the closet or live a life of stealth. We are finally making headway by being visible and our allies do notice. Organizations like HRC that have a poor history of trans inclusion have a bad reputation with LGBT activists as a result.

During my lifetime we've come a very long way. Growing up I didn't even know trans folk existed and gay folk were invariably shunned. Now I'm able to live a proud, productive life married to another woman. That's thanks in large part to the work of activists who have allied with the transgender community.

[Angela Campbell]

No, the entire paragraph is part of the definition. .

No it is not. The part you placed in bold is a note about the definition.

[Jacqueline Winona]

No it is not. The part you placed in bold is a note about the definition.

Hmm, if they had used the word note or "for example" like they did in the first paragraph that would be fair conclusion, but they didn't, thus the fair reading is to include all the language. But I really don't want to argue about interpreting a definition. I respect everyone's right to freedom of association, thus if you believe you're part of the group, that's good enough for me.

[flatlander_48]

For these will do us more good in the long run than all the nondiscrimination rules we can pass.

What that suggests is a willingness to sacrifice those who are or will be negatively impacted "in the long run", however long that is (measured in years, but more likely decades I would think). I think that has the effect of compounding the original injustice to the point that the lost ground can never be made up.

It's very easy to offer the original opinion (and I've not heard of this particular book) if one is not negatively impacted by the lack of policy. It still remains true that justice delayed is justice denied.

[daviolin]

Whats all the bru-haa-haa. I hate labels. Just put on a dress and go for it. Daviolin

[Veronica27]

In this day and age when people can't tell the difference between to, too and two, or there, their and they're, is it any wonder that they have no idea what the difference is between sex and gender, or what the word transgender really means? Gender is a noun, and transgender can be either an adjective or a noun depending upon the application. i.e. a transgender law (adj) or he is a transgender (noun). Crossdress is a verb, and depending on the suffix can become an adjective or a noun, or its tense can be past or present. Transgender tends to describe what a person is because of its basic origin as a noun, whereas crossdresser tends to describe what a person does because of its origin as a verb. Most definitions of transgender relate the meaning to the subjective self-identification of one's "gender" as being other than their assigned birth "sex", or that their "gender expression" would lead others to make that assumption about their gender identity.

Much of the opposition by some crossdressers to the use of transgender stems from this definition and the fact that it does not apply to them or to what they do. They identify as male (sex) and masculine (gender) regardless of how they are dressed. How they express themselves does not change that, as it is simply clothing. Being a woman, or feeling that you are a woman, at least in part, is much more and far deeper than simply how you are dressed. Notwithstanding all the attempts to make TG an "umbrella" term, a male identifying crossdresser is not being true to himself by self-identifying with that term.

There are fundamental human rights in most advanced civilizations, that are either enshrined in their constitutions or a part of their legislated or common laws. I agree with those who feel that enacting rights for specific groups does little to advance their cause, since their rights already exist. More can be achieved through education which does not create hostilities. Every right that is given to one group, often impinges upon the rights of others in some way. For example, it is often argued that all TG people have a right to use the women's restroom, because of how they are presenting. However, if you are including CD's in the TG umbrella, then all CD's are also entitled to use the same facility. But what about the discomfort of the genetic females who are having their privacy invaded? All CD's and TG's are not necessarily completely passable, and even if they are it would be somewhat discomforting for many women to later find out they had been duped. Co-ed washrooms are not everybody's cup of tea. My wife, who is accepting of my crossdressing and has attended a number of CD events with me, is never-the-less somewhat offended at the idea of a crossdressed man entering the ladies facility when she is in there. It is an intensely personal thing.

When you align yourself with a group that is primarily LGB, then by association the public perception is that you are also of that persuasion, both individually and as a group. If you add a T, and the public concept of T is primarily TS or very nearly TS, then by association you will also be seen as being their definition of T. It has nothing to do with homophobia or transphobia on the part of anyone. While I ultimately have no control over what others may think of me, I don't go out of my way to mislead them, and such misunderstandings can have a negative impact on my personal relatonships.

Veronica

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Becky, We are the Red headed stepchild !!

[Julogden]

Not to throw cold water, but my impression is that more often than not, when a state, county, town, village, or municipality is considering some new protection of rights statute, rule, etc. for the GLBTQ? community, the "T" gets thrown under the bus as a compromise to get the law passed to protect the 'overall' community, "Ts" be damned. YMMD.

Rhonda
That has happened in the past, but it usually wasn't a community action, it was done by a small group of activists and/or rights organizations. I remember some of my gay and lesbian acquaintances being quite angry when that happened. At times, part of the larger gay community has expressed dislike for gay guys who occasionally do drag, so it isn't surprising that they would also be willing to use the "T" as a bargaining chip, especially several years back when the LGBT movement didn't have much support from the straight/cisgendered community. More recently, they've been less likely to throw us out when they want to get legislation for LGBT rights passed. Things are improving in that regard, in my opinion.

Carol

[DianeDeBris]

You gain acceptance from others by actually having the courage to be out and open with them. One person at a time.
Exactly right! One of us meets and interacts with a "normal" person as someone who is polite, well behaved, decent and thoroughly ordinary. That person will not be "recruited," but likely will mention to a few others that he/she met a CD who was a pleasant, interesting and like able person, unusual attire notwithstanding. Those 2 or 3 repeat the story when the topic comes up. The downside, of course, is that unfortunate behavior attracts a lot more notice and attention, and pretty much guarantees breathless, proactive gossip, by definition negative. Akin to "100 attaboys are wiped out by just one "aws**t."

[Rogina B]

If you are to be out as a "T",you just have to have a thick skin...There really is no damage from gossip that isn't overcome by truth..

[flatlander_48]

At times, part of the larger gay community has expressed dislike for gay guys who occasionally do drag, so it isn't surprising that they would also be willing to use the "T" as a bargaining chip

I think it is a case of being able to separate fiction from reality. A number of people in the community often get upset by drag queens because they believe that it doesn't give the "proper" image and that it draws a lot of negative attention. Unfortunately society at large doesn't understand that most of what drag queens do is for show, whether they entertain or not. It really isn't to be taken seriously and it isn't really representative of anything EXCEPT drag queens. However, it's very easy for society to point fingers and use them as a reason (however weak) to discount the whole community.

[Acastina]

What that suggests is a willingness to sacrifice those who are or will be negatively impacted "in the long run", however long that is (measured in years, but more likely decades I would think). I think that has the effect of compounding the original injustice to the point that the lost ground can never be made up.

It's very easy to offer the original opinion (and I've not heard of this particular book) if one is not negatively impacted by the lack of policy. It still remains true that justice delayed is justice denied.

I don't disagree. I just thought it was an interesting take on the larger struggle for equality, one that hadn't occurred to me before reading the book (I think it was called The Invention of Heterosexuality, or something like that). I'm for nondiscrimination policies and statutes, as necessary remedies, but I saw that the arc of history on this subject was vindicating that author's premise, that marriage and military equality was outpacing nondiscrimination law, and that it might make such law less crucial than it would otherwise have been. There has always been the the tragedy of being the last one to die in a war that's nearly over...

[flatlander_48]

I can't understand that because marriage and military equality have come about due to changes in laws (perhaps stated policy in terms of the military). That's not making sense.

Things get changed because people actively advocate for them. I can't think of any situation where that wasn't true. In order for the original premise to be true, you would have to belive that things change faster if you don't do anything. To me, that's like saying you heal faster from a broken leg if you don't do anything. I don't see how that would work.