Military

[Breannagg]

Are there a lot of cders and trans in our armed service I'm just curious

[Eryn]

My goodness yes! Just do a search on "military" and see how many threads you find!

[mikiSJ]

Navy, 1966, Vietnam

[Luna Nyx]

i have met a couple on tumbler. they are very awesome and i have mad respect for them on 2 fronts.

[Beth Wilde]

There have been threads in the distant past on this subject, as I remember, there are quite a few serving and a LOT of vets. I'm just finishing my 22 years in the UK Military.

[Kate Simmons]

There are a number on here who served. I served in the Army in Nam from 1969-1971. As far as currently, every once in awhile a member posts about it but I think the number in the service is pretty much DADT for obvious reasons.:)

[Jason+]

Breannagg,

20 years Navy on submarines. As mentioned before there are a lot of TG folk who come from a military background. If I'm not reading too much in do you have someone significant to you serving in the military now who is Trans?

[andrea lace]

Yep I used to be in the Army

[reb.femme]

There have been threads in the distant past on this subject, as I remember, there are quite a few serving and a LOT of vets. I'm just finishing my 22 years in the UK Military.

RAF aircraft techie for 12 years, Tornado mainly.

I was offered my 22 in the RAF but thought 12 years was enough for any man....er girl....er whatever. :heehee:

Miss it and the guys & girls immensely and never felt like I've done anything worthwhile since, to be completely honest. Came out shortly after the first Gulf war (Granby/Desert Storm) :straightface:

Reb

[JBPerry]

getting ready to get out (not because of my CDing) but 5 yrs USMC!

[Lynn Marie]

Wasn't everybody in the military a CD or trans! Probably not, a couple I heard of were gay.

[Leona]

There was a study done whose results were published a bit over a year ago that indicated that the US military has about double the rate of trans people serving than the general population. Apparently, the study hypothesized, there are people born as boys that join the military in the hopes that it will erase the trans feelings they have. I'm also quite certain there are plenty of trans people that serve honorably because it is honorable to do so.

There was an NCIS episode that zeroed in on that, actually, and I thought it was quite compassionate. There was a drug ring or something, and they were interviewing a marine and poking around his house. They kept asking about his girlfriend, and he insisted he had no girlfriend. Then they went out to do more investigating in the building, and while they were out there, the marine got all dressed up, makeup and everything, and, er, not sure about forum rules for this part. So the NCIS crew went up and found him, and there was a closeup of Gibbs being angry about what had happened. The impression *I* got was that Gibbs was being angry that it wasn't ok to be trans, and this marine was no longer with us and had information relevant to the case. It turned out, iirc, that he had been blackmailed by someone who knew his secret.

I know, the NCIS bit wasn't entirely relevant, but it was a powerful episode to me.

[heatherdress]

No - there are not a lot of Service members who crossdress. Policies which now encourage enlistment of and protect gay members do not exist for crossdressers and transgendered people. There are several threads which address the Uniformed Code of Military Justice regulations and policies.

That said, since the military is composed of the same population of men and women who live in our country, there should be no difference in the percentage of members who may want to crossdress while they are active military but can't, or who may later crossdress after the service.

[Leona]

http://www.queerty.com/study-military-men-twice-as-likely-to-be-transgender-than-civilians-20120727/

Sometimes I wonder if people read the post above theirs before posting. :)

[Stephanie47]

Yep, there are many vets on this forum. Drafted in 1969. Did an abbreviated tour in Nam thanks to Charlie Cong and his damn booby traps. That's IED for you new guys.

[Julie Gaum]

Same thing was a gripe of mine too until I realized that, while I'm composing my missive, another post had been entered. It happens.
Julie

[Leona]

Heh, Julie. :) On another forum I frequent, running phpBB, if another post is made while you're writing yours, it shows it to you and offers you a chance to edit yours. Guess I got kind of spoiled there. (moderation is also quite different. I know, I'm one of the moderators :) )

[Allison Chaynes]

Quite a few actually, I accidentally discovered one of my soldiers was a CD and I knew of one MTF TG also in the same battalion. Most keep it under wraps so I am sure there were more. I was Army.

[Tess]

Back in the days of the draft I'm sure the CD population in the military was the same as the general population. They probably weren't doing any or much dressing, but they probably did before they were inducted and would again when thay were discharged. That is my history. I enlisted in the Air Force rather than be drafted into the Army.

[Leona]

That's what my dad did, actually. He ended up serving for 20-someodd years and retired as a Master Sergeant. Simulators, he did.

I'm willing to bet that even during the days of the draft, the CD population in the military was slightly higher still because of the volunteers, but in theory if the military was composed completely of conscripts, you're correct that the CD population would mirror the general population.

[Sabrina133]

I think there are quite a few. I was in for 5 years active duty before i resigned and got out.

[Dianne S]

On a tangentially-related note... how many CDers here have stereotypically "male" professions such as engineering, IT, construction, etc?

I used to belong to a local CD group a while back and there were very few members who had stereotypically "female" professions such as teaching, nursing, etc. I wonder if CDing is a safety valve for some people to escape the male-oriented aspects of their lives?

[Sabrina133]

Dawn, to some degree i think that may be a true . i also think that many of us are in those male oriented professions because to convince ourselves that we are manly or as a way to try and cure ourselves of the need to crossdress. Obviously didnt work for me as i found myself needing to dress more and more after i went on active duty.

[JBPerry]

I am an IT guy but one of the reasons why CDing helps me is to just plain relax at the end of the day......how some guys have a beer to relax....well I put on a dress and heels

[mikiSJ]

I wonder if CDing is a safety valve for some people to escape the male-oriented aspects of their lives?

For a lot of us this is true. Although I didn't work in the 'trades', I am a licensed general contractor and spent most of my working career in real estate development - talk about 'A' personalities, with a CAPITAL T!!

[Beverley Sims]

I think percentage wise it is the same as civilian life, but ther'e a damn sight more cautious about being outed.

[Carole]

I did my 'bit' 30+ years of wearing 'brylcreem'; well we did when I joined. did a lot, some of which I rarely talk about, saw a lot, enjoyed most of it. I think the only continent I never visited was Antarctica but I got pretty close a number of times. Helped a few people with mercy missions, proud to have served!!!!!!!!!

[Bree Wagner]

On a tangentially-related note... how many CDers here have stereotypically "male" professions such as engineering, IT, construction, etc?



And how many of us combine that with the military? ;)

[Leona]

Well, I'm an automotive technician, but I never pursued it to feel more manly or anything. I just love fixing cars, and I needed a job, so I went back to a place I used to work. Late 90s fixing cars was everything I did.

[heatherdress]

http://www.queerty.com/study-military-men-twice-as-likely-to-be-transgender-than-civilians-20120727/

Sometimes I wonder if people read the post above theirs before posting. :)

Sorry - The report is unsubstantiated BS. An interesting hypothesis, but that's it. A British psychologist could never get access to individual Military Service Records of US military members to do research like that. The military Services do not hand out medical records. Privacy requirements as well as security concerns prohibit sharing medical records and personnel files.

There is really no reason to believe that the population of those serving in the military (thank you for your service) is any different from the population they are recruited from.

[Allison2006]

I was in the military ages ago. I remember reading a long time ago that a high percentage of crossdressers are military or ex military,

[Daryl]

Back when I went in, in 1959 it wasn't even thought of. In those days you would have got the boot if you was caught. I don't think anybody I knew would have
even thought about it.

[Leona]

Sorry - The report is unsubstantiated BS. An interesting hypothesis, but that's it. A British psychologist could never get access to individual Military Service Records of US military members to do research like that. The military Services do not hand out medical records. Privacy requirements as well as security concerns prohibit sharing medical records and personnel files.

There is really no reason to believe that the population of those serving in the military (thank you for your service) is any different from the population they are recruited from.

I believe that study was based on surveying past and present service members. With a large enough sample, the results could be surprisingly accurate. It does contain several hypotheses derived from the results found, but the initial question "Is the rate of trans military members the same as in the general population" was answered reasonably well.

It has gone through the peer review process, but I do not know if anybody has tried to replicate the results. So what we have here is "Yes, possibly, the studies are still being worked on, but early indications are that there may be a higher rate of trans military people than in the general population."

Remember that the military itself as a sample group is already biased because membership is voluntary. Meaning you self-select joining, so as a demographic it is definitely worth studying separately from the general population.

[StaceyJane]

I was a lab tech in the Army for 12 years. Now I'm a civilian lab tech that works for the Department of the Army in an Army Hospital.

[Stevie]

Yes in the Navy.

[Jennie1989]

US Naval Academy graduate.

[Sarah V]

Engineer here. A few years back a sister acquaintance of mine showed me a group picture she was in. The picture was taken in the mid 1980's, and it had about 30 girls in all in the photograph. This pic was taken at a formal dinner at one of the bigger and more well known TG conferences back when the conferences were more popular......it was the Texas Tea Party I think. My friend told me that, believe it or not, there were no less than 3 girls in that group picture who had been awarded the US DFC (Distinguished Flying Cross). Go Figure.

[Jenny Gurl]

And how many of us combine that with the military? ;)

Ditto. I'm out now, but I served and was in an IT field. I remember the first week I got out I shaved my legs for the first time. Didn't want to risk it while enlisted, but after I got out it was time to be me.

[heatherdress]

I believe that being transgendered has been and unfortunately continues to be considered an "illness" or "not fit for duty" medical condition in the military which can result in separation. There are also very broad provisions in military regulations which prohibit certain behaviors. Seems unfair but the military is about discipline, not free expression. Thus, even if a soldier, sailor, airman or Marine wants to wear heels and lipstick on their off-duty time - they usually don't until they leave the military service. No one wants to risk their drill sergeant or commander finding their stash of makeup, heels and stockings. Maybe that's why after years of military service, with its uniformity and regulations, crossdressing offers a freedom of expression which is both liberating and comforting.

[kymmieLorain]

US Air Force Vet here.

Kymmie

[Leona]

I believe that being transgendered has been and unfortunately continues to be considered an "illness" or "not fit for duty" medical condition in the military which can result in separation. There are also very broad provisions in military regulations which prohibit certain behaviors. Seems unfair but the military is about discipline, not free expression. Thus, even if a soldier, sailor, airman or Marine wants to wear heels and lipstick on their off-duty time - they usually don't until they leave the military service. No one wants to risk their drill sergeant or commander finding their stash of makeup, heels and stockings. Maybe that's why after years of military service, with its uniformity and regulations, crossdressing offers a freedom of expression which is both liberating and comforting.

My question to this is why don't trans people also have the right to fight for their country? Why does it have to be an illness?

In the military structure, I can see a strategic disadvantage to having to supply HRT to deployed soldiers, and as you mention it is (by necessity) a well-disciplined environment. Likewise, when you can only pack 25 pounds of gear (or whatever the limit is), you don't want to pack 25 pounds of dresses when you need room for ammunition and stuff, but what trans girl is going to do that?

There's no logical reason for the military to not accept trans people. There are logical reasons for dictating that the trans people in the military still wear reasonable and respectable clothes when they go out en femme (or en masc for the trans men that serve), rather than wearing clothes that would bring a disgrace to the military. That's reasonable. But outright banning such service for weak medical reasons is just plain wrong.

In today's society, it would be reasonable for the military to ask that you not go out en femme unless you pass 100% as a woman and to bring disciplinary action should you be read in a public place. That would be quite a progressive step to take, and I'd welcome it, pending more complete acceptance in the future.

[heatherdress]

You have great questions Leona. I do not want to try and justify any regulations or policies but simply offer my guess as to why they exist.
1. Historical precedent - Policies are not new. They were established when many wrongly considered alternate lifestyles immoral, unhealthy, sinful, etc.
2. Fear - Leaders responsible for regulations and polices are responsible for the discipline, morale and well-being of their commands. There is fear that extreme appearance or unusual behavior threatens unit cohesion and performance, even during off duty hours.
3. Ignorance - Applicable regulations were made without the benefit of modern research and understanding.
4. Uniformity - Teamwork is essential in the military. Building teamwork requires members to trust and accept each other. That might be harder to accomplish if certain members appear to be "different".
5. Mental health concerns - Crossdressing in the past has been considered by some to be psychological problem to be avoided in the military.
6. Distraction - It is easier not to deal with issues which may relate to crossdressers and transgendered people
7. Unit morale - Military duty require high morale which is easier to attain when behavior and appearance of members is not extreme.
8. Recruitment - Maintaining a volunteer force is difficult. Acceptance of recruits with openly "different" or weird behaviors may diminish overall numbers of recruits due to fear and prejudice.
9. Public opinion - There has not been much public support demonstrated to change existing regulations.
10.Housing - Military personnel live in close quarters with each other. There is little room for privacy.

There are more reasons why the military has been non-accepting. Many of these reasons seem unfair, outdated or inappropriate, but many are important and solutions do not yet exist. Current policy has changed to accept openly gay personnel, but as yet, there seems to be little interest in pursuing changes to exclusionary policies for crossdressers and transgendered people.

[Lady Panda]

I think that there is a strong presence among military or veterans ....My SO served in the navy for 10 years and my Granfather who was also a CDer served in the Army.

[Sabrina133]

US Naval Academy graduate.

Hi Jennie, USMA here - graduated in 99. It was a tough 4 years for me. didn't dress at all for the 4 years i was there. Got out as soon as my obligation was complete.

[Tina B.]

Navy, served on a floating bomb, ammo ship, as a cargo handler, very manly job! After that I spent the next 30 plus years working in trades where women where unknown. Machinist, and then Truck driver , furniture mover for thirty years. A few women started in the profession, as I was getting old, but only doing the light stuff like packing, the moving they left to us guys.
Being a cross dresser in a very macho environment, was interesting, but I used to under dress and wear clear polish to work all the time.

[Carroll]

USAF Vet here. Used to keep my stuff hidden in my car and drive to Bismarck, ND just so I could dress and go out (station at Minot AFB)

[Sabrina133]

[QUOTE=Leona;3232542]My question to this is ....

There's no logical reason for the military to not accept trans people. There are logical reasons for dictating that the trans people in the military still wear reasonable and respectable clothes when they go out en femme (or en masc for the trans men that serve), rather than wearing clothes that would bring a disgrace to the military. That's reasonable. But outright banning such service for weak medical reasons is just plain wrong. [QUOTE]

I tend to agree. While i don't believe that there will be sudden relaxation of regulations and policies regarding Trans women and men, I do believe that over time, the Department of Defense will relook and perhaps change some of the rules. Why? Because with the revocation of DADT, the revocation of DOMA, and the pending changing of the combat exclusion rules, they will simply have to. Pandora's box is now open and there is no way they can ignore the full spectrum of individual rights that these three landmark decisions have caused.

As i may have mentioned before, i have a good friend stationed at Fort Riley KS who is gay and performs as a drag queen here in KC. Before DADT was revoked, he kept it a close secret but now his chain of command knows what he does and it certainly hasn't affected his career. We've talked often and i do know that if he could, he would transition. He wont do it as long as he is serving but when/if he decides to get out, he's already told me he plans to go to the VA and start the process.

Something else that all need to remember - officers and enlisted are treated very differently. While an NCO or young enlisted Soldier might be able to get away with it, i doubt that an officer would.

Bree

[heatherdress]

US military does not permit enlistment or appointment of persons with "Current or history of psychosexual conditions, including, but not limited to transsexualism, exhibitionism, transvestism, voyeurism, and other paraphilias, are disqualifying."

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/joiningthemilitary/a/neurotic.htm (dated 2009)

Anyone who entered with a history of "psychosexual conditions" (I hate the term), which includes transsexualism and transvestism, would have had to hide their past behavior and refrain from it while in the Service.

If you look at the complete list, it is understandable why there are so many appropriate behavior disorder disqualifications. Crossdressing just finds a small place on a long list of disqualifiers.

[Sabrina133]

US military does not permit enlistment or appointment of persons with "Current or history of psychosexual conditions, including, but not limited to transsexualism, exhibitionism, transvestism, voyeurism, and other paraphilias, are disqualifying."

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/joiningthemilitary/a/neurotic.htm (dated 2009)

Anyone who entered with a history of "psychosexual conditions" (I hate the term), which includes transsexualism and transvestism, would have had to hide their past behavior and refrain from it while in the Service.

If you look at the complete list, it is understandable why there are so many appropriate behavior disorder disqualifications. Crossdressing just finds a small place on a long list of disqualifiers.

I don't disagree but as i mentioned about my friend, much of it depends on the chain of command. Lets face it, prior to 9/11, being gay was cause for dismissal or chapter (then again, so was being overweight). As the services needed more people in harder to train specialties (linguists, military analsysts), the rules were relaxed. My point was that with revocation of DADT, the nullification of DOMA, changes in the combat exclusion rules and the recognition that Transexualism isnt a desease or perversion, will perhaps force to DoD to relook the rules.

[giuseppina]

Sorry - The report is unsubstantiated BS. An interesting hypothesis, but that's it. A British psychologist could never get access to individual Military Service Records of US military members to do research like that. The military Services do not hand out medical records. Privacy requirements as well as security concerns prohibit sharing medical records and personnel files.

There is really no reason to believe that the population of those serving in the military (thank you for your service) is any different from the population they are recruited from.

One of the comments indicates that the psychologist author involved is or was US military personnel and Veterans Administration staff. Whether that is true or not, I am unable to verify. The same poster credited the psychologist for exposing abusive treatment by the US military of LGBT servicemen/women. If that is true, more power to him for blowing the whistle.

The linked article mentioned one possible reason military members might self-select to enter the military: hypermasculinisation of gender variant males who enlist. I think it's fair to say that doesn't usually work very well in the long run.

The study the article links claims to have over five million participants and is to be published, presumably in one of the peer-reviewed scholarly journals. That number is comparable in size to a very large medical study. I'm not in a position to comment on the design of the study or the plausibility of data access. Assuming the study is well designed with credible data, I've seen enough university level statistics to say the author has something to say with a small margin of error, a lot smaller than the typical political poll (at least in Canada) with one to three thousand participants and 95% confidence intervals of plus or minus three to five percent.

Lastly, thank you to current or ex-military personnel for your service to your country, wherever you serve(d).

[Allison Chaynes]

US military does not permit enlistment or appointment of persons with "Current or history of psychosexual conditions, including, but not limited to transsexualism, exhibitionism, transvestism, voyeurism, and other paraphilias, are disqualifying."

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/joiningthemilitary/a/neurotic.htm (dated 2009)

Anyone who entered with a history of "psychosexual conditions" (I hate the term), which includes transsexualism and transvestism, would have had to hide their past behavior and refrain from it while in the Service.

If you look at the complete list, it is understandable why there are so many appropriate behavior disorder disqualifications. Crossdressing just finds a small place on a long list of disqualifiers.

You can get a waiver for virtually anything though. Trust me.

[Sabrina133]

Yup. Shortly before my unit deployed for Iraq, one Soldier in the battalion came out to his chain of command. Not sure motivation for doing so (i suspect that he didn't want to deploy). He was deemed as key and critical and was not chaptered. He ended up serving the entire tour. When he returned, he still wasn't chaptered. He's still in the Army today.

[drushin703]

Navy, 1972-1978. Uss Koelsch, Naval communication station Iceland, Keflevic, NCSO supply depot Manama Bahrain,
NCSO Masawa Ethiopia. Go Vietnam era.....dana