Saudi Arabia and your rights or lack thereof

[johanna.kitten]

Would anyone here know about your rights as in being CD/TS in Saudi Arabia? My guess is that one would not even be tolerated to say the least? Anyone here from Saudi at all?

Reason for asking is that I've been headhunted by a university in Jeddah on the west coast of Saudi. Never been to Saudi actually, so it would be interesting to live there for a while but my worries here is that I would prolly not be able to present as the female I am. Most likely it would be illegal.

Hugs
/Giovanna - still in the United Kingdom, but looking

[Beverley Sims]

I think in this instance it is work before pleasure.
You have to consider where you drink alcohol also.

[Sabrina133]

Hi Giovana,

Not been to Saudi but have been to Kuwait. Kuwait is much like Saudi Arabia - subject to Sharia Law. While in some respects, Kuwait can be considrered downright progressive as compared to Saudi - it is an extremely intolerant country by even most Middle Eastern standards. SA is a theocracy very much controlled by Wahabism so it has very little (read none) tolerance for any deviation from the Koran. Kuwaiti men have no respect for women. Homosexuality is seen as a sin punishable by death. I know dressing and being gay are totally different but Sharia sees no difference.

Ive also heard that their religious police are extremely intrusive so you have no expectation of privacy when it comes to religion - and religion is the basis for everything. So, unless you are willing to not bring your girly stuff to Jeddah and not dress while you re there - my recommendation would be DONT.

[suzy1]

It’s a Muslim country. It’s the birthplace of Islam.
I am a long time debater of atheism/religion so I can claim to know a little bit about Islam.

Following on from Sabrina’s good advice I would say don’t go there. Its as simple as that.

[reb.femme]

Would anyone here know about your rights as in being CD/TS in Saudi Arabia? My guess is that one would not even be tolerated to say the least? Anyone here from Saudi at all?

Reason for asking is that I've been headhunted by a university in Jeddah on the west coast of Saudi. Never been to Saudi actually, so it would be interesting to live there for a while but my worries here is that I would prolly not be able to present as the female I am. Most likely it would be illegal.

Hugs
/Giovanna - still in the United Kingdom, but looking

Hi Giovanna.

I worked for British Aerospace in Saudi for over 2 years. They go through your bags, photos, tear out pages from newspapers etc. Do not get caught with your CD kit etc. Happy to give full update via pm. They really didn't appreciate one picture of me with a teddy bear covering my parts. They will happily lock you up and god knows what else. 3 guys I knew were arrested at gun point in front of their families for producing alcohol. When I left, they had been held in prison for one year, no trial at that time. Hell on Earth - avoid.

Reb

[Vickie_CDTV]

I think this is really, really a case of, "If you have to ask, it is a bad idea." It is a bad idea on a zillion levels (some would get me in trouble if I mentioned them here), but the trans and sexuality issues are enough alone. In some of your previous posts, you describe things you have done that could get you in *severe* trouble in Saudi Arabia.

[Celeste]

Not only would you not be able to present...you could even get arrested for bringing items into the country.It seems their culture fears femininity.Why in world should women ever have to conceal their faces?I think it might be easier returning to the times of the Spanish inquisition!

Lets put it this way....I'd be scared to death to dress in private there! As soon as you fly into their airspace,every right ever known to mankind is sacrificed.Now.. if you throw cding into that equation,you could end up dead or another victim of an ancient and backwards religion.

[johanna.kitten]

Sounds like a no-go to me. The little party-animal-me would suffer as you can see https://www.facebook.com/principessa.giovanna.del.nord

Strange thing is that they found Giovanna - surely they must understand I'm female - all my online presence is female and I assume they found me on Linkedin.

For me it would be impossible to wear men's clothes as I don't have any and I'm not gonna start to crossdress even if I know that we women can get away with it. ;)

Hugs
/Giovanna

[Ineke Vashon]

Have you discussed this with the Jeddah University? Since they probably know already?

Ineke

[johanna.kitten]

Ineke, I have not - the person that called me sounded British so he might have not given this any thought as it would probably make much difference to him. I would assume just landing a job in Saudi as female would be hard enough, if not impossible. I am awaiting email correspondence today. I look kinda passable on my Linkedin profile as it were.

To be honest I'm more interested in moving to Gibraltar, I was just out there a few weeks back to check for opportunities a property. Really nice place, but with only some 30.000 people in the whole "country" it would probably make me the only TS there...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibraltar

Hugs
/Giovanna

[Jessica Keys]

I just read a newspaper article where two gay men were found by the Saudi police and super glue was used up their "you know what's" and then they were forced to drink a strong laxative and basically died from the pressure.
You better rethink this gurl

[Kandy Barr]

Hi Johanna, in the 80s I was offered an opportunity to go to either SA , or Korea through my work in the Aerospace industry, I did extensive research and what I found out about SA scared me to no end. I can't imagine it has changed much as it is such a backward and biased country. Needless to say I opted for Korea and had such s wonderful time, came back with s full wardrobe of hand made to fit dresses and heels. I crossdressed there every evening after work and was accepted with no problems. Had I of gone to SA and tried this I would have wound up in prison or most likely dead. I strongly advise you not to go there!!!!

[Kate Simmons]

It's highly unlikely that CDing would be appreciated or even tolerated in a patriarchal society.:)

[Dianne S]

Run away.

Saudi Arabia is an Islamist dictatorship and one of the world's worst violators of human rights. Google "William Sampson" to read about how one British citizen was treated by the Saudi security forces.

Just don't go there.

[Phoebe Reece]

Giovanna,

I spent 20 years living and working in Saudi Arabia. The education system there is strictly separated by sex. A male cannot work in a female school, including the university system. If you have been recruited as a female, then it is for a job in an all female university. If you go there and are found to be anything but female you will be looking at extremely serious consequences. A physical exam and doctor's report are normal requirements for employment by western expats, so it is unlikely you would ever get there. I suggest you forget about this employment opportunity.

[I Am Paula]

Dubai is pretty liberal by Arab standards, and crossdressing, and homosexuality are punishable by imprisonment. I imagine that any transsexuals are very underground. I would steer clear.

[Eryn]

I worked for a company that did business with major Saudi companies. After seeing the sort of "catch-22" problems encountered by ordinary non-CD employees who inadvertently ran afoul of Saudi customs paperwork requirements I'd say to stay far away.

[reb.femme]

Giovanna,

Just to re-iterate, now I'm on my laptop. Posted earlier from my phone at work and my old eyes are not up to it.

I was a one-on-one gas turbine instructor with the military. The Saudi's erase pictures of women from papers and magazines with a large black marker pen, no images exist of women, even in adverts for supermarkets. They went through photos individually when I returned from leave, sorted every item of clothing, removed Xmas cards. I could go on ad infinitum, but won't. :heehee:

I've been stopped in the street by a well meaning but nonetheless local nut, for having a t-shirt showing an eagle in human form (anthropomorphism) punching through a wall. I explained where he could go to.

Keeping this clean. It was said that you go to Saudi with 2 empty bags. A crap bag and a money bag. Which ever fills first is when you leave. My crap bag filled long before the other. CD/TS/TG would be eradicated if they had their way. Not being horrible to Saudi, it's their place, their rules but avoid, avoid, avoid.

You will not receive an Iqama (entry permit) when they find out the truth of your gender position anyway. Lucky you, I say. :straightface:

Reb

[Kaz]

Ho Johanna..... lots of good advice already but I will share....

I have been to Dubai a few times and that is probably the most liberal Islamic place. I dressed in my hotel room but to be caught in public is prison. Saudi is is one of the most extreme muslim states.... go there but do not drink unless in a 'compound' and DO NOT dress! You never return!

Love Kaz xx

[JadeEmber]

Lol, I'm a bit nervous just considering a move to SE Asia (or the like) with my clothes.

Plenty has been said about Saudi Arabia, but yeah -- I've explicitly heard of people getting arrested. Expats get a fair bit of leniency, but only as long as they are not seen doing anything objectionable.

I'm a bit amazed that the people involved in the job offer didn't consider this. As you said, though, it might be an intermediary and that person might not care.

[Loni]

any country controlled by islam or any of the varied muslams must be avoided at all costs. as they are so backward in there thinking.
freedoms do not exist in such places. and most raised in any christian ( as well as many other religions) based country would be-found in jail way to easily.

[Joni T]

My bother got a teaching job in Saudi about 30 years ago. Long story short--don't go. He could write a book on the negative (and really bad at that) aspects of it. Do you really want to live in a dry country? A country where being a Christian can get you beheaded? Even the Sears-Roebuck name plates had to come off the Sears appliances and equipment? If you have a death-wish, then by all means, go. If you want to live to see your grand kids, don't go. The choice is yours but to me personally, there hasn't been enough money printed to get me there.
Joni

[johanna.kitten]

So, it seems to me that I'd better hang out here in Europe instead of Saudi. ;) I have found most people embracing any form of organised religion less tolerant... Islam probably being not tolerant at all. The only encounter I have had with Islam is that I spent 3 months in a mosque in Dhaka in Bangladesh. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kakrail_Mosque and that where I live in the United Kingdom, it is the dominant religion. (Actually, Englishmen is in minority here.)

The nearest I've been to Saudi would be Dubai and I did find this well controlled. You could get a drink but only in the hotels and at nite you were escorted to one of the "compounds", I think it was called t***y twister, if any of you been - it is surrounded by razor-wire and armed guards to protect the general public from the imported Russian girls inside. I assume Saudi would be pretty much like this.

Hugs
/Giovanna

[vanitysumers]

MUSLIM COUNTRYS AND CROSSDRESSING IS A BIG NO NO!

see some notes/stories below

Gays in the Islamic World

in Saudi Arabia, 105 men were sentenced in April for acts of “deviant sexual behavior” following their March arrests. Al-Wifaq, a government-affiliated newspaper, claimed they illegally danced together and were “behaving like women” at a gay wedding.

http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/gays-islamic-world

17 'cross-dressing tourists' held in Dubai

DUBAI, United Arab Emirates (AP) -- Police in the Gulf tourist hub of Dubai say they've detained 17 foreigners for allegedly displaying homosexual behavior in the city's shopping malls and other public places.

Police spokesman Zuhair Horoun says all the suspects are men who were either visiting or working in Dubai. He says they were detained Wednesday but did not elaborate or give details about their behavior.

But the Dubai-based Gulf News reported Thursday that police detained "40 cross-dressing tourists."

The paper quotes Dubai's police chief as saying the arrests are part of a campaign against "transvestites."

Moral crackdown in Dubai
Dubai police crack down on immoral behavior of Westerners in the conservative Muslim state. CNN's Wilf Dinnick reports.

A Dubai court has acquitted a British tourist of violating public morals after he was arrested in a gold market dressed as a woman

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/719480/Cross-dressing-British-tourist-acquitted.html

DUBAI // The Government should carry out research into a “dangerous” trend of cross-dressing that was becoming prevalent in schools, Dubai police said.

Police said a number of arrests have been made recently, mainly of male cross-dressers with long hair, make-up and women’s clothing in public places such as malls, parks, souks and schools.

Lt Gen Dahi Khalfan Tamim, the Dubai police chief, suggested yesterday that mixed education could be to blame and called on the Ministry of Social Affairs (MSA) to try to pinpoint the causes and establish the extent of the problem.

“The Ministry should study this to see whether the problem is society-based, and should offer solutions,” he said.

Lt Gen Tamim was speaking at the launch of a week-long awareness campaign sponsored by a number of government bodies, including Abu Dhabi police, the MSA and the Ministry of Religious Affairs, which hoped to draw attention to the issue. He said cross-dressing was prevalent in many secondary schools, high schools and universities.

The police could not explain why cross-dressing was growing in popularity, although Lt Gen Tamim believes that co-education and a lack of parental guidance could be factors.

Cross-dressers, or “the third sex” as they are often called, cause confusion for teachers, parents and pupils. The practice of dressing as a member of the opposite sex is particularly evident in all-male schools, but in girls’ high schools “boyat” – an Arabic slang term – is becoming increasingly commonplace.

Dressed to appear masculine, with short, boyish haircuts and an attitude to match, the female boyat befriends and flirts with other girls. However, innocent flirtation can lead to physical relations and even sexual assault.

Young men, dressed in flamboyant feminine clothes with matching make-up, have become an increasingly common image.

Lt Gen Tamim called on the MSA to look into the possibility that co-education was to blame. “Some studies conducted in the West indicate that mixing girls and boys can encourage this behaviour.”

The police chief suggested the introduction five years ago of mixed-sex education for children between first and sixth grade could be one reason for the sudden growth in cross-dressing.

“This phenomenon was not apparent until mixed education was introduced,” he said. “A boy brought up around girls, and a girl brought up around boys, will be affected by the behaviour of the opposite sex, which could cause confusion.”

Lt Gen Tamim added that although the problem was affecting government and private schools, there was more chance that being in a mixed environment could encourage this behaviour. “I call upon the Ministry of Social Affairs to conduct a field study to determine whether mixing children could be a possible reason for this behaviour.”

The police campaign aims to stamp out what is seen as a harmful trend in schools, while raising awareness among society.

“We aim to educate people, especially parents, on the dangers of cross-dressing and want to call on all sectors of society, including the education and religious bodies, to work together to fight this,” Lt Gen Tamim added.

The police also vowed to take a tougher stance against those caught mimicking or impersonating the opposite sex.

“If a girl dresses like a boy and a boy goes out dressed as the girl-next-door, they will be subjected to the law. It is illegal for a person to emulate the opposite sex and offend those around them,” he said.

He urged parents to spend more time with their children rather than leaving their upbringing to housemaids.

“Not all housemaids are qualified to raise children according to our culture,” he said.

Police declined yesterday to reveal the number of arrests that have been made in relation to cross-dressing.

Saudi woman killed for chatting on Facebook (read the end of the article)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1583420/Saudi-woman-killed-for-chatting-on-Facebook.html

[Amanda M]

I lived in Saudi Arabia for 12 years, and yes, it is EXTREMELY strict. That said, what you do in your own home is pretty well safe, but to go outside en femme is a shortcut to a very unpleasant prison, prior to deportation. All that said, I had a great time there, principally because I lived in a ´compound´which was a little bit of California plonked down beside the Gulf.

Going through Customs was odd, indeed. You have to open all your baggage, and the (if so minded) will go through every bit of your things. If they messed around with my lingerie, I simply said "These things belong to my wife ' she is coming to visit soon". End of problem.

[johanna.kitten]

Amanda, got a little bit of a question for you as I really like to move to Gibraltar but would still consider La Linea or Sotogrande as it would be commutable to/from Gig.

How accepted would I be in this part of Spain would I move there? Would it be possible to complete a transition in Spain that I started in the United Kingdom? Got a European citizenship.

Hugs
/Giovanna

[Tracii G]

Not a good idea to move to a country where many governments are pulling out their embassy workers.You would have to be crazy IMO.
Why go to a country where they don't like you to begin with?

[AshleyW]

Sounds to me like SA might not be the best idea.

The west Asian Islamist countries confuse me. You have all these nations that seem very backwards as far as LGBT rights go, and then you have the fact that Iran performs more sex change surgeries than any nation in the world except Thailand. Not really sure how that fits in.

[Sarah V]

An interesting thread. Have to echo what almost all of said. I would highly recommend you look to somewhere in the EU to find work in your field. The Middle East is not it (except for maybe Israel, and I don't think I have ever heard from any Israeli sister's on here so I have no idea how life would be in that nation either) tolerant of TG folk for the most part.

The funniest part of all this is what a bunch of hypocrites the Saudi's are. 1.) I have had more than one Saudi or Kuwaiti male I am sure attempt to contact me and request that I make them a contact or friend on Flicker--No Thanks. 2.) For being so uptight about alcohol, where do all the Saudi business men go to drink and have a good time???---Bahrain, Qutar, UAE, EU or the US, and 3.) a sister of ours (who is a good acquaintance of mine) has a daughter who is a private flight attendant for one of the major global energy/oil companies. Her daughter fly's out of the US and stay's over in Saudi regularly. She and her crew stay in special hotels just for foreigners. My friend has told me that her daughter has relayed to her that on her flights, once the plane has cleared Saudi airspace, that the Saudi women will normally get up and go change their clothes on the plane. Sometimes these women ask the female flight attendant's to help them. My friends daughter reports that she has seen these women wearing underthings that would make Fredericks of Hollywood seem tame, not to mention the stuffs price tags either, yet alone the designer clothing they are getting into. They then do the reverse when heading back into Saudi Arabia.

I am thinking the only place where you might be able to dress if you get work there is in your living quarters. I have friends who have worked there and the Anglos, and EU's who work there live in separate secured compounds usually, so you are normally among your own when home and away from work. A lot of these compounds I have been told are quite plush indeed.

But otherwise, I would look for work elsewhere. You have to keep in mind, that the place has a King, and it's his Kingdom. And they don't call it a Kingdom for nothing.

[darla_g]

I have been to Saudi. I would say in no uncertain terms are they intolerant of CDs or Transgender.

[Amanda M]

Giovanna - let me do a little digging for you!

Amanda

[johanna.kitten]

Thanks Amanda, I did find La Linea a little bit rough I might admit, Algeciras seems to be not so nice either. I would probably prefer to live in Spain and work in Gibraltar - it is just the pain of having to cross the border at least twice daily.

Hugs
/Giovanna

[vanitysumers]

there is a wiki website that has history of persecution of crossdressers/TG's in Muslim countries and your interest Egypt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Egypt


Sharia Law will get you into all kinds of problems especially with CrossDressing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia

these kids less then 11 years old get introuble in egypt
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=af0_1360665227&comments=1