The "girlfriend" zone - do I dare go there?

[Leslie Langford]

I have an interesting dilemma, and I'm looking for advice from other forum members - and especially from the GG members here.

As a lot of you know from my previous posts, my wife and I have been in a DADT relationship for many years, although her stance in this regard has softened in the past year (finally accepted the inevitable, and maybe weary of the protracted head-butting?).

I now talk freely and without shame about my crossdressing when the subject arises, and I go out on a regular basis as "Leslie". While my wife doesn't want to see any physical evidence of my inner girl, we are at a point now where I tell her openly when I am going out and I don't sneak around behind her back anymore. We also we have an unspoken agreement that kind of developed by itself wherein she will have gone to bed before I return home so that she won't have to see "Leslie". I, in turn, no longer have to make convoluted arrangements to slip back into "guy" mode before re-entering the house.

All of this worked well while my wife was still working, but she retired from her job of many years at the beginning of the month and is now home all the time. This has put a severe crimp in my "Leslie" activities, but I can live with that for the time being as we both adjust to the new reality. Come the fall, however, I plan to have a good heart-to-heart talk with her to see if we can agree to a new arrangement which will give us both the space we need.

But here's the kicker - and the reason for my post...

My wife has a few girlfriends currently who are outgoing, engaging, and fun to be with, and she is very compatible with them. The downside is that they are also homebodies and - not to put too fine a point on it - a bit on the "stick-in-the-mud" side. She, on the other hand, is more energetic and loves to get out there and do things - especially with all that free time she has now along with her pent-up desire to start checking items off her "To Do When I Retire" (Bucket?) list.

So the other day, she starts musing aloud along the lines of "I really like all my friends, but wish I had a girlfriend whom I could do actual "girl" activities with, like going to the theater, visiting farmers' markets and antique stores, shopping, getting mani's and pedi's together, going to outdoor summer events etc..."

Are you connecting the dots here yet?

Well, the fact is - "Leslie" loves to do that very type of "girl" thing herself when she is out and about, but so far she has been a solo act. She would dearly love to have a GG companion to share in those activities, but that opportunity has not presented itself yet. So in theory, a match made in Heaven, right?...

My dilemma is this, then...how do I drop the hint (and without my wife dropping an anvil on my head - LOL!) that maybe she should look no further than "Leslie" to find the "girlfriend" that she is seeking, and that maybe we could find a way to compartmentalize the activities that we did in "girl" mode while I could still be her "man" when it came to doing traditional "couples" things.

It's a tantalizing opportunity for opening up a new dialog and one that I'd like to pursue, but I don't know how much to make of this off-hand statement by my wife. I also fear that it might back-fire on me big-time, and negate all of the the progress that we have made in other areas so far pertaining to my crossdressing.

Have any others here been in a similar situation, and if so, how did it go for you?

[boink]

Your partner has made it pretty clear that she is not interested in seeing much of Leslie, so I'm going to go with a "probably not going to happen" on this one, but her feelings could evolve.

On the other hand, I don't think it would hurt to suggest that you would be happy to offer to accompany your wife on any of the aforementioned outings in either mode (masculine or feminine). I think it would be totally reasonable to share that you would love to have the opportunity to do these things as Leslie. But it really might be more her interest to have someone that isn't you to share some of these things with, and having to be out in public with you dressed is a big leap for someone who doesn't even want to spend time with you at home that way in my opinion.

[Lorileah]

On the other hand, I don't think it would hurt to suggest that you would be happy to offer to accompany your wife on any of the aforementioned outings in either mode (masculine or feminine).

:yt: But maybe suggest strongly that you enjoy it more "en femme" Maybe not so blatant a look, very casual to start. But just going with her builds your stock

[Melissa Rose]

Based on your description of the relationship in the realm of cross dressing, I do not think she is going to be very receptive. There is a huge difference between not wanting to see you at home and going out in public. IMHO, her being comfortable with you in a private setting (i.e., home) will have to come way before any type of public outing is going to acceptable. While I understand your desire to hint at or make the offer, removing the hurdle of DADT or "I don't want to know or see" is probably going to have to come first.

Going out with girlfriends is as much about the friendship and companionship than what is actually being done. If you look at her list of examples "...going to the theater, visiting farmers' markets and antique stores, shopping, getting mani's and pedi's together, going to outdoor summer events etc...", they are essentially gender neutral activities (with the possible exception of the mani-pedi). Seeing couples at those activities is quite common. Regardless of how you are dressed, she is still going to see and think of you as a guy and as her husband. She is probably more interested in bonding and forging deeper friendships with other women than what is actually being done. Doing fun and exciting stuff is an added bonus.

[kimdl93]

I had the mental image of you waving your arms and hopping up and down, saying "hello!" as your wife made these comments . I Certainly don't think it inappropriate to say, I would LOVE to be your girlfriend!

[Princess Grandpa]

I am a firm believer in open honest communication. I would sit her down and share how I like to do that and make the offer. I wouldn't really hold out a lot of hope but I would throw it out there. Maybe start ha ging out doing those things in male mode. This is very much the way things are developing with Julie and I. We are going out shopping or what not. I'm still too weak to go anywhere other than a safe place as Rita so I go as a dude. Heh my nails will be polished and I might be wearing ladies casual wear even. Just no wig or make up. Someday I hope to feel more comfortable. Julie would love to go just anywhere with her new Bestie.

Let us know how this plays out
Hug
Rita

[Dawn cd]

Just say, "I know someone who would just LOVE to go out and do those things with you."

And when she asks "Who?" You say...

[Eryn]

My dilemma is this, then...how do I drop the hint (and without my wife dropping an anvil on my head - LOL!) that maybe she should look no further than "Leslie" to find the "girlfriend" that she is seeking, and that maybe we could find a way to compartmentalize the activities that we did in "girl" mode while I could still be her "man" when it came to doing traditional "couples" things.

I don't think that "dropping a hint" is a good strategy. It smacks of trying to sneak your femme side into her life via the side door.

It might be better to just put all the cards on the table. Say "This has been bothering me and I'd like you to hear me out before you form a conclusion." Then tell her how you feel and what you would like to do.

Next, listen carefully to what she has to say. Her response may leave no options at all ("religion forbids it.") but more likely she will express valid concerns such as your family's reputation, relations with neighbors, etc. These can be addressed.

Now, what would you like to do? Do you want to be out to your entire community, including her friends? That would probably be a non-starter. OTOH, you might suggest an arrangement like the one we follow, with Eryn's no-fly-zone in our local community and freedom to do things in either mode outside of it. This works for us and we do pretty much exactly what your wife has in mind.

This will be a stretch for any wife, particularly one who is already used to a DADT relationship. It will be stressful and jarring for her to see and interact with you in girl mode. She can become comfortable with you and begin to see you as a girlfriend but that takes time and patience.

[Jenniferathome]

Leslie, you can't drop a hint. You can't ask. You are not a "girlfriend" you are her husband. It just isn't in the cards

[Plasibeau]

With my ex (who is now a close friend) I handled the same problem, by writing her a letter as Alyson. I even went so far as to refer as my male self as an entirely different person. Of course she was intelligent enough to recognize what I was doing, but it gave her the sense that she was able to communicate with the other half of me without being worried of hurting B's feelings. Truth be told it was an eye opening experience for the both of us as we were really able to acheive a higher level of understanding of one another and she was eventually able to handle spending time with Alyson so long as she didn't have to watch the transformation. That's what worked for us anyhow. :-)

[Annaliese2010]

Don't mean to sound harsh but...IMHO? Dump her. Life goes by too fast and She is clearly not for you. You DID your duty. Bite the bullet. Get divorced, pay your alimony and find true happiness w/o all that never-ending lifelong Strife. Geeze...before ya know it we're all too old boring then dead. LIVE your life while you still can, girl. She MADE her decision. YOU cant help who you are. Wtf

[Tracii G]

Don't be afraid to ask the question but be able to accept her response.
She just might agree to it you never know.

[Eryn]

Don't mean to sound harsh but...IMHO? Dump her....

Some of us take our marriage vows more seriously than that. We love and rely on our spouses even if it means that we don't get to do every whim that comes to mind. The reward is knowing that we have the support of our spouses when the chips are really down.

[Ann Thomas]

Leslie,
I'm at a similar point with my SO. What's helping me head in that direction is to change my role in the marriage gradually. As a male, I have learned to be a specific role for her in that way. It takes great effort on my part to break away from that role that I slip into when I'm around her - it comes too naturally due to all the years of practice.

I've stumbled across something that has helped me recently, and I did not expect it to work this way. I withdrew from the Trans community (that's why I've not been on here much in the last six months), and immersed myself more in school. I've gone back to college, and decide this year to make friends with and keep in touch with women in my classes. It's been very rewarding, and helped me to develop the female side of me more directly. I find when I'm around men (straight or gay), or around trans people (all flavors), that I tend to slip into too much of the male role I've developed over the decades. Around totally women, I have changed more than ever before. And in lots of ways I never expected. Women do act much differently when away from men. Honestly, I love it. (Btw, it's much easier for me to have totally platonic relationships with women when in female mode - they all look at me as another woman, not competing for their affections with their husbands, and the lesbians still don't view me as one of them.)

So now what I try to do is channel those feelings, thoughts, and actions from when I'm around other women into the time I spend with my wife. It has helped some, but it's a long and slow process. To me it's kind of like learning another language - the best way is to immerse yourself in it, they say. It then comes out around the wife, and she's being gradually more accepting of me as Ann.

Hope that helps.

Ann

[Debglam]

Some good advice here Leslie. I'll only add that you might want to consider easing in to it. My wife and I occasionally get pedis, visit the spa, and shop together with me in drab.

Debby

[Leah Lynn]

Leslie, there's always room for hope! My late wife went from,"AIN'T NO WAY IN HELL!", to the two of us having a few times out of town togrther. "Not a date night, but a GNO." Those were her words. I just wish it could have happened 30 years earlier.

I'm cheering for ya, girl.

Leah

[Kelly DeWinter]

Leslie;

Yeah quite the dilemma, since you are both adults, have a heart to heart talk about what you expect and look forward to out of retirement and be sensitive to what she expects and looks forward to. Be open and honest, but respect her as well. Watch out for falling into the "Here's an opportunity to get what I want" that hurts so many relationships.

[kimdl93]

Leslie, you can't drop a hint. You can't ask. You are not a "girlfriend" you are her husband. It just isn't in the cards

That was direct, to the point and, quite likely, also wrong. it assumes that marriage is a rigid, immutable arrangement. Leslie and her wife have already made some progress in breaking down that initial hardened attitude. It's entirely possible, even probable that they can further redefine the nature of their relationship.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Leslie , It sounds as though you are between a Rock and a Hard Place on this one, But don't give it all up please do keep us advised.

[Sometimes Steffi]

My relationship with my wife is a lot like yours, but I still have to do the convoluted change back part.

The first time I talked to my wife about going out was for the Keystone (TG) Conference 2012. So, I no longer need a cover story or to skeak out.

However, when she said I could go to Keysone, she said, "Just because I'm OK with you going out, doesn't mean we're going out as girlfriends."

When I asked her how she even knew about that, she replied "Oprah".

So, I think the answer is still "no".

[ErinSassyPants]

As a GG my suggestion is to suggest a girlfriends night in first. Maybe even not totally dressed, maybe casually dressed and a movie she's usually watch with her GFs, maybe ice cream and chocolate, maybe maybe painting nails or something.

I suggest this because I think your idea is beautiful and I don't think it's impossible but I think it may well be too big of a jump for her to go from not even seeing you to going public. On the other hand, maybe she would feel better with the total separation treating Leslie as a GF who does not live with her. Only she can answer that but maybe if you gave her those options she might give a little bit?

Maybe say something like "I would love to be able to spend that kind of time with you and if it worked it may fill a need for both of us but I want to know how if at all you might be comfortable with that. Would you be willing to spend a girls night in? or would it be more comfortable for you if Leslie came to pick you up or meet you there?" and see what she says.

Also, if you see something that you think she would like you could invite her to it as part of your talk. I saw that they are having *insert fun event here* Leslie will be going and I thought maybe you might enjoy going too" Then it's your event and she can see what you are interested in and she can pass it up if she isn't comfortable.

Good luck!

[Jenniferathome]

That was direct, to the point and, quite likely, also wrong. it assumes that marriage is a rigid, immutable arrangement. Leslie and her wife have already made some progress in breaking down that initial hardened attitude. It's entirely possible, even probable that they can further redefine the nature of their relationship.

Kim, "change" is not the point. Indeed, anyone can change. The point of my statement was about the "girlfriends" comment. I think there is great confusion by cross dressers about their wives or SOs between acceptance and enjoying it. My wife accepts me completely. My wife will go out with me AND have fun. However, my wife will never see me as a "girlfriend." She will not choose to gout out with me in girl mode INSTEAD of her real girlfriends. I am her husband.

Now, Leslie is light years from where I am and while acceptance is possible, even going out together, but the number who really act like girlfriends I think are very, very, few.

[Beverley Sims]

I would say,
"Why can't I be your girlfriend?" :)

[kimdl93]

No, Jennifer, change is the point. If Leslie and wife have common interests, there's great potential. Lets not nitpick about what constitutes a girlfriend. I believe Leslie's point was that she would be overjoyed to do these things with her wife.

[Chickhe]

My answer is...Halloween! Get prepared early and do it with her in style. Do all the things she likes to get you prepared and then show her a fun time on Halloween... Its great way to just show her a good time and it may help her come around. My wife and I never talk about it, but dressing up so much in front of her has gotten her used to me doing it, I just limit it to once a year with her, but even if not Halloween...find a way to show her a good time. She might go for it.

[SaraNZ]

I dont see why this cant happen but I agree with some of those above ... float the idea past her as opposed to blurting out 'lets be girlfriends'. If shes midly receptive to the idea, who knows where that might lead...?

[Di]

Leslie Normally for me a heart to heart letting her know your feelings about this would be the way to go.

BUT from what you described I am not so sure if going from a DADT kinda thing to suggesting this would be wise....I just do not think she is on the same pg yet.

But you know her,,,,I do not and hopefully you can discuss everything with her.:hugs::hugs::hugs::hugs::hugs::hugs::hugs::hug s::hugs::hugs::hugs: