Fantasy Land

[gonegirl]

Last night I replied to a post in this section that read like a cross dressers fantasy *ank. It was late and I was tired and I took a cheap shot at the OP's lack of punctuation and grammar, and I apologize. I was wrong to do it and of course the mods deleted my post and reminded me to act with more tolerance with regard to people who might not be able to express themselves well in written communication.

I kind of snapped when I read that post and took the cheap shot because it was easy, rather than address the real issue I have with it and others like it.

What I'm referring to is the seemingly increasing number of fantasy driven stories and comments that are put forward as transsexual based. Usually they are inserted as comments to a legetimate TS thread, but sometimes they originate from OPs. I hope I don't come across as a trannier than thou jerk, but I get pretty upset when the fantasy BS starts to flow. The TS forum is for TS issues and this other stuff is at best distracting, and at worst offensive to Transexuals or people who are really questioning if they are TS. It's hard enough being TS in the real world without having to navigate around some people's online fantasy land. I suspect there are other members who read and/or post in this section who have similar feelings.

I expect that I'm ruffling some feathers here, but for those of you who feel like fantasizing in the ether, please give some thought to where you are posting and please keep it out of this section.

OK, rant off.
Simone.

[Badtranny]

Well ok then.

You know how I feel about this kind of stuff Simone but I think the mods are starting to pay more attention. Aside for a few bad apples, who I don't think have any idea how offensive they are, things have appeared to improve lately in that regard.

[kittypw GG]

Imagine how it feels for a gg to read all the "I'm more girly than you " stuff. It's all about perspective. Anger takes over when perspective is lost. Real issues are hard to face for many. It is just about filtering out what doesn't pertain to you.:love:

[whowhatwhen]

Why worry about it when it's the internet and no one can prove anything?
Aside from the people who've met each other IRL we're all just avatars (or text) on a forum and could really be anybody.

If you can find a nice way of saying "I don't believe you" then go for it and I think I've read a few times where it's been done with out being OTT offensive but I imagine in general no one cares long enough to keep up a posting fantasy.

*lives in a van down by the river*
*actually a 68 year old dude with a lumberjack beard*

[Angela Campbell]

I tend to just overlook those who I can see really do not have any idea what they are talking about, up to a point. It is hard for me to understand and I am in the middle of it, so how can someone who has never experienced it understand. It is not their fault sometimes.

Sometimes though it is offensive. I usually wait until one of the more ...aggressive girls pipes in....lol...you know who you are.(and I love all of you)

[MysticLady]

Imagine how it feels for a gg to read all the "I'm more girly than you " stuff. It's all about perspective. Anger takes over when perspective is lost. Real issues are hard to face for many. It is just about filtering out what doesn't pertain to you.:love:

Fantastic Insight. Too me, life is a fantasy. Sorry Simone, I will not accept it any other way. Forgive me if I offend you with my small dreams but, they mean something too me. And I like to share some of those sometimes w/ my friends. I have friends in all forums.:hugs:

[gonegirl]

Dear Misty - OK, maybe I'm overreacting, but I think it's something thats there and that it's damaging to this forum.

Dear Kittypw - I didn't consider how this stuff affects GGs who read it. I'm sure it stirs up plenty of feelings. Thank you for addressing perspective. I try to live my life live and let live but sometimes it just p*sses me off to where I need to get it off my chest. Call it TS syndrome, I don't know....

Simone.

[melissakozak]

As I am getting older, I am learning how to apply my BS filter. If someone posts some fantasy story, and I detect that in the first couple of lines, I simply quit reading it because it simply does NOTHING for me....

[DebbieL]

There are many transsexuals who have had to live in stealth mode, have been forced to NOT transition, or have bodies that don't feminize well. This doesn't mean that they are any less transsexual.

In my own case, I've started transition 3 times, and twice was confronted with consequences so dire that I had to stop. I can pass as an old lady, because that's what I am (55+), but in a cruel twist of fate, I was 11 years old and my testes came down, and within 3 years, I had undergone every change that I dreaded. My dad had to give me the "Birds and Bees" talk when I was 10, because I was "Different" and they would be teaching "normal" in my classroom.

My insides never stopped wanting to be a girl, but living in a WASP neighborhood with religious fanatics who didn't think anything of sending someone to a hospital or even stoning them to the edge of death, and having already been hospitalized numerous times, combined with rejection and immediate shut-down of any discussion of wanting to be a girl when I tried to bring it up with doctors, psychiatrists, and psychologists as well as therapists, MSWs, and CSWs. Even after numerous suicide attempts, and even immediately following an attempt that SHOULD have killed me (1/4 pound of ground class), they STILL refused to even let me DISCUSS it.

No, I haven't completed transition, and there are still times when I have to "pass" as male by wearing a pup tent shirt.

What is really painful is hearing people in the transsexual forum, of all places, trying to dismiss people who are transsexuals because they haven't "completed transition" or haven't transitioned "the right way".

[MysticLady]

Dear Misty - OK, maybe I'm overreacting, but I think it's something thats there and that it's damaging to this forum.


It's ok sweetie, I understand when someone may over fantazise on things. But, we never know what they may be experiencing. Everybody is different. For example, when my femme feelings are abundant, I become motherly to some, even if Bad Tranny gives me a hard time:p. I forgive you sweetie.:hugs:



What is really painful is hearing people in the transsexual forum, of all places, trying to dismiss people who are transsexuals because they haven't "completed transition" or haven't transitioned "the right way".

Debbie, I agree. Even though some of us don't transition and go through the whole kit and kabboodle, it's doesn't mean that we don't suffer either. Just read my thread in the Loved Ones Forum. We all suffer in one way or another.

[kimdl93]

I admit, I'm at times a sucker, get drawn int a post, the it dawns on me that maybe things don't quote add up. If something seems particularly egregious, I'll sometimes look back at earlier posts...looking for consistency, etc. I have reported one or two grossly suspicious fantasy posts to the mods rather than respond to the OP.

[Marleena]

Simone I get what you're saying. I've had to chime in at times when comments were insulting to TS members. We can have a nice serious TS thread going and somebody has to chime in on how girlie they look. It's like ughhh not again.lol.

[STACY B]

First of all you have to understand that Most People are LAZY ,,, An Fantasy Land is EASY ,, So that being said People are going to live there because it is way easier that reality !! You just got to know an weed out the Dingbats ,, Or just laugh at them .

You know when someones full of it !! There easier to spot than a Man in the Woman's section at Walmart ,,lol,,,,

[Badtranny]

Imagine how it feels for a gg to read all the "I'm more girly than you " stuff. It's all about perspective. Anger takes over when perspective is lost. Real issues are hard to face for many. It is just about filtering out what doesn't pertain to you.:love:

Yes Kitty but you have to admit that there are very few people in the TS forum who ever even mention the word 'girly' in earnest.

[CindyKate]

Although I didn't see your initial post that got deleted, lol, this is surely a better way to express your concerns, so good job!

[arbon]

having been here a few years i don't agree that there are an increasing number of such posts. Its really about the same, or even less posts like you describe.

you have to keep in mind that this little ts section is part of a much larger site that is mostly for crossdressers, and that this little section is open to anyone to post. So there are going to be posts that are a little...whatever.

There is the safe haven section but there is not a lot of activity in it.

[MysticLady]

There is the safe haven section but there is not a lot of activity in it.

Hi Arbon, do you believe that maybe folks just want too be around someone somewhat like them? I for one, need to interact w/ people that accept me for myself, no matter where they are in the spectrum.:)

[Kaitlyn Michele]

That pretty much sums up the divide..
Real life transition meets living the dream of going all the way..

its an overreaction to get upset about this stuff, but its certainly fair game to point out there is a lot of baloney thrown around by people that are all talk and lots of fantastical comments...

Whether its nice to say it or not, people that have made massive changes in their lives are not going to be excited about hanging out and interacting people that are living a fantasy, lying about their "progress" or are just not real at all..

[arbon]

mystic, I don't know how you will like how I answer that

yes

but

I have no problem with you mystic, or with crossdressers, or dual gender people, or?? and I think that non transitioning people do make good contributions to this section a lot of the time.

But it is the people who have, are, or will transition I connect with the most.

Everyday is a day I have to make living openly as a woman work. Do you?

I have a couple good friends that are crossdressers, or dual gender as one of them likes to say, and lots and lots of people here that I like that are somewhere inbetween or non-transitioning transsexuals, and they have their struggles and I appreciate that, some serious struggles ..but for most of them they change their cloths, let their femm side out, make trips to the mall, want to talk girly talk

But I'm not in the same place, I'm not on the same path that they are on

there is a difference

thats just how I feel about it


and, what I think, they should call this section the transgender section, maybe we would not have to have these discussions as often.

[Marleena]

I won't join the Safe Haven because everybody would probably leave...

I must be dumb because I keep hearing about fake people in this section. I'm not seeing it??

[whowhatwhen]

Think of it this way, how many here can post verifiable proof that they are who they are and on a path to transition?
A few here are admirably loud and proud but aside from that all we have to go on are words.

Don't think something is real? (Politely) Voice that you don't believe it.
Just imagine if someone came in here confused and dealing with a ****tonne of emotions all at once and posts something that people's fakedars go off like crazy and she gets driven out.

What if she eventually does end up transitioning anyway?
Everyone is so incredibly different that true TS tests and analysis based on posts on the internet seem a bit pointless at best and divisive at worst.

If someone says "omg my knockers are soooo big after hrt" then by all means release the hounds, but does it really happen that often to be this big of a concern?

[Princess Grandpa]

I'm not sure I really understand this thread.

I have wondered if there were *tries to think of the right word* tension between those who need to transition and those who merely dress to satisfy that little need then put it all way until next time. I imagine I might be upset reading posts like I and others post about the fun were having as if it were some sort of game, while you're just trying to make it though another day.

A hard road you have

Hug
Rita

[Marleena]

@ Rita the OP was just trying to figure out why the TS section is being used for what she saw as a fantasy post. She saw a post that she thought didn't belong here. I must've missed it.

[whowhatwhen]

IIRC It was a member wanting to be her femme self more often or all the time, it seems to have been since deleted.
I think a lot of people come in various places on this forum (in general) confused and desperately clasping at walls trying to answer deep rooted and stressful questions.

I didn't see the responses to it though so it must've been scrubbed before I woke up.

[paulaprimo]

damn, how do i miss all of those explosive threads...probably a good thing though as it was a banner
week for me in terms of infractions! so my lips are sealed... and btw i agree with everyone :D

[PaulaQ]

I think a lot of people come in various places on this forum (in general) confused and desperately clasping at walls trying to answer deep rooted and stressful questions.

I agree with this. Sadly, this being an interent forum, you'll get lots of opinions about the questions you ask, unfortunately, many of them are just flat out wrong. (Not singling out this subforum by any means - there are plenty of dumb things said all over the place, by folks who are well-meaning, mostly, but just wrong.)

[Badtranny]

Think of it this way, how many here can post verifiable proof that they are who they are and on a path to transition?
A few here are admirably loud and proud but aside from that all we have to go on are words.

Maybe that would solve everything. I would be willing to post a redacted form of any ID anyone could ask for. I wish membership on this forum required verification because I think that would eliminate a lot of the BS that anonymity brings.

[PaulaQ]

@Badtranny - how would verification be remotely helpful, especially to people who are desperately seeking answers to what is going on with themselves? I think in the desire to prevent the "tee hee - panties!" crowd from crapping up this forum, some legitimately TS people who are trying to figure this stuff out get turned off and pushed out.

Or are you simply suggesting verifiable identification, rather than proof that someone is transitioning? (This wasn't clear to me from your reply, sorry.) Actual verifiable identification would make this a very empty web forum. Many would choose to never reveal their identity, because the risk of that can be very high.

[whowhatwhen]

It gets a bit gray there though, someone can still be TS and be very early and not have their trannypapers yet.
Unless you ask for something like a forum signature next to HRT meds it's pretty hard to verify unless you meet the person IRL.

For example the only proof I would have now is bank statements showing my electrolysis and appointment cards from my therapist.
Doesn't matter to me either way but I can imagine someone coming in here dealing with lots of confusing and conflicting feelings posting something that sets off a false-positive in someone's fakedar.

There's been more than a few people who've started in the CD area and ended up transitioning, who knows how many just got scared off?

[Badtranny]

well there's really no way to verify the TransitionerS so I was think more along the lines of just having an ID or something on file so you have to be accountable to what you post here.

Of course, once you are on the other side, then your ID will pretty much say everything.

It's just a pipe dream though. There are not a lot of people who share my disdain for anonymity.

[PaulaQ]

There are not a lot of people who share my disdain for anonymity.

I understand your point, I really do. And if the world were different, I'd agree with you. But it's not, and for some, there is real safety in anonymity. I have a friend who's been in transtion and on HRT for a while. She got outed at work, and they did everything they could to make her leave of her own volition (including some extremely dangerous things, things that could still cause her real, physical danger - they outed her to correctional facility inmates), and when she didn't leave, they trumped up false charges against her, and fired her. Like I said - there is real safety for some in anonymity. (The downside, of course, is that anonymity allows some people to be real d-bags.)

[paulaprimo]

on second thought and this is just my 2 cents...there are bad seeds in all walks of life, and even in here i'm sure. simone i understand what you are saying and am sorry that someone offended you. this is a very large forum with a very broad variety of people. there are a lot of senor members here, which i am one of as i am in my fifties, that paved the way and made it easier and acceptable for todays transitioners. if there was internet and forums like this back in the 50's and 60's, and it wasn't so taboo, and more gender friendly like it is today i for one would have transitioned then!! the world was a very different place back then. so should i be shunned now because of the way i was raised. if internally i'm all female and happen to express one of my fantasies, i certainly don't want to be called a fake or phony!! i commend all of you that have transitioned and am slightly jealous. but everyone's situation is different! so because someone transitioned, might (and i said might) not make them more femme than someone that hasn't.

for those of you that did transition, before you did, if you were called a fake or phony, how would you have taken that?? so if baloney is being tossed around, make a damn sandwich :)

i was a late bloomer due to my partcular circumstances. so i for one am glad that we are all lumped together as i have learned so much from those of you that did transition.
i would suspect that you are the future role models of many people here that are planning to transition. so just playing the devil's advocate here, i might be a little more sympathetic as many of us have not been as fortunate as you.

i didn't see the original "fantasy thread" so i hope i'm not too far off base here and certainly not trying to upset anyone :) just everybody has an opinion, no matter how ridiculus it might be. this thread kinda reminds me of what my dad always said to me..."if i want your opinion, i'll give it to you" :)

[Angela Campbell]

There is the thing. Transition includes at work. If you are hiding it you are not completely committed to transition are you? Just being on HRT does not mean transition. It is part of it but doesn't make it. That may be where the reality bites at some here. Some claiming to be in transition but not actually doing it yet. Although it is a process and some go slower than others. If you are not out at work and have no plans to be, are you really in transition? Maybe but there are definitely some problems there. This is a good place to work those problems out.

Is this what this thread is talking about or is it about the ones who claim to be TS because washing the dishes as a girl is so much better than doing it in drab? There are two kinds of fantasies going on here maybe. Those who really want to transition but are afraid of pulling the trigger (but still a real TS nonetheless) and those who are in no way TS but think it is cool.

As far as ID or proof.....I don't know how that could realistically be done, but it seems if you are really in transition why be worried about trying to be anonymous as the whole world will know anyway. (if I posted a pic of my DL you wouldn't recognize the pic in it as being me anyway)

[kittypw GG]

.

Dear Kittypw - I didn't consider how this stuff affects GGs who read it. I'm sure it stirs up plenty of feelings. Thank you for addressing perspective. I try to live my life live and let live but sometimes it just p*sses me off to where I need to get it off my chest. Call it TS syndrome, I don't know....

Simone.

I must have TS syndrome as well...........How do you think I know loosing perspective causes anger??? :heehee:

[Marleena]

@ Ellen. If somebody is on HRT and is TS and not out at work how does that make them inferior? I don't buy in to that at all. They risk losing their source of income. I get it. Not many companies want to hire an obvious TS person. If you transition on the job you take the chance of getting fired too. They can find ways. In the old days there were TS people and most had to hide out of fear. There was no SRS, HRT, no forums like this, or WPATH. Did that make them not TS?

I find it really stupid that we are judged on our actions as a TS. Some people do what they need to do to survive. Advice is a wonderful thing but we don't know other people's baggage or have to live their lives. I'm not going to be judge and jury and push somebody to possibly ruin their life. I trust people to think of all of the consequences and only do enough to get by. It's great to get good advice here from people that have lived the life but did they have the same baggage as you?

[Angela Campbell]

I never said any such thing as inferior. I implied that it is not total transition in fact I am not totally out at work yet. I am working on a plan with my HR dept but it will be a while still. So I have not entered into a total transition as of yet. It doesn't mean I am not TS nor does it mean I am inferior or superior to anyone else. I also mentioned not doing so at work and no plans to do so. How can one transition from male to female and spend 1/3rd or more of their time as one and the rest as the other? I was also bringing up what would be a valid TS discussion as opposed to the other example I gave. I posted as discussion not as judgement.

If it offended you I apologize, Marleena. (or anyone else)

[Marleena]

Then I misread it, my apologies. There is no right or wrong way, we do what we have to do. I respect everyone here that made it this far to be part of this forum. It's has been a struggle for all of us. Some more so than others depending on your circumstances.


I just hope we don't go back to the you have to have SRS or you're not really TS era. It's getting better.

Oh... you are transitioning Ellen so pat yourself on the back no matter how far along you are.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

MysticLady, I don't judge your crossdressing as a waste of time ....I don't mock you for pretending to be a woman on a message board with the transsexuals..i don't attack transsexuals that won't commit to transition as wasting their lives

I've said this many times there is simply a tension between transsexuals that are living or truly wondering about living as women and the crossdressers who come here basically to crossdress online...and like at the mall, they want to "pass" and "blend" with the women here.....

....and i repeat its not a big deal, all i said was keep it real...all people are saying is that if you are not transsexual it would be better if everyone knew so that those that are transsexual can parse through the comments that they care about ..

and for the people that are working stuff out here, I don't think anybody should have any problem with that ...and if that's where your head is at, say it.
...the problems arise there when the person asking questions gets feedback they don't like..and often that relates to hearing stuff that they desperately do NOT want to be true....and then the ts women get attacked for being mean and unsupportive..

[Marleena]

...the problems arise there when the person asking questions gets feedback they don't like..and often that relates to hearing stuff that they desperately do NOT want to be true....and then the ts women get attacked for being mean and unsupportive..

Yes, we get agitators here and then the TS women take offence and we lose members over it. Then there are those that claim hormones give them beautiful bodies and big boobs. It's not the reality for most of us. If that were the case the doctors that do BA's and FFS would go out of business.

[GabbiSophia]

How the heck does one determine if it is fantasy or not they are feeling? I am not the smartest person or the best typer or speller. Does that make what I am experiencing a fantasy? Because if it is fantasy's suck.

[arbon]

Maybe that would solve everything. I would be willing to post a redacted form of any ID anyone could ask for. I wish membership on this forum required verification because I think that would eliminate a lot of the BS that anonymity brings.

I think that is pretty excessive, its just an internet forum, and people can have any life they want on the internet

I agree with Paula, this would be an empty place

[Ann Louise]

This is the type of thread that used to cause me so much hurt and emotional pain that I would cry. I came here for love, acceptance and friendship. I thought I would be accepted for who I was. I desperately needed anonymity to protect my wife and my job as I tried to pull together a life after my male shell vanished. For those of you who lovingly accepted me I will be forever grateful. For those who insist on dishing up handfuls of your "truth," thanks for reinforcing that my strength and courage must come from inside of me, not from internet hugs. I don't like you at all, but I respect you none the less. Ann Louise

[Princess Grandpa]

This is the thing that most surprised me! I would have thought in a community crying for acceptance there would surely be unconditional support for each other. I have seen posts from women here which give me the impression of strong intelligent, and thoughtful individuals. (That has nothing to do with spelling, grammar, sentence structure, whatever". Many are supportive and kind while some of the others I see appear almost intentionally cruel! I had one individual with authority on these forums take the time to sit and talk (virtually of course) about my hurt feelings over deleted threads, while another was insulting and called me names. As the cliche goes, "it takes all kinds to make the world go around.

Why I thought we would just be one big happy family is beyond me. It's an Internet community. As such there are trolls as well as wonderful people. We have a common struggle even if it is a different journey for each group.

Hugs
Rita

P.S. not meant in anyway to diminish the Op's hurt feelings. While the path for a CD is tough, the path for a TS has to be infinitely more difficult. /hug discussing your feelings is so much healthier than lashing out in anger.

[arbon]

How the heck does one determine if it is fantasy or not they are feeling? I am not the smartest person or the best typer or speller. Does that make what I am experiencing a fantasy? Because if it is fantasy's suck.

start telling everyone you know that you are really a woman - your daughter, your wife, your parents, the guys you have worked with for 20 years - then you know it is reality.

I'm a terrible writer to

[Kaitlyn Michele]

How the heck does one determine if it is fantasy or not they are feeling? I am not the smartest person or the best typer or speller. Does that make what I am experiencing a fantasy? Because if it is fantasy's suck.

Steph I hear you..
as someone that thought (And hoped) it was a fantasy for almost 40 years all I can say to you is that "you will know"

my speculation for most of the questioners is this..

... at some point something will happen in your life, and it will highlight your situation..a job change, a family issue, a wife's comment, a death, a money problem, a drunken bender, an arrest, a car accident...something that hits from the outside

It will be something that literally forces you make a choice that will cause you to further invest in your male life... and you simply won't be able to do it..you simply will not be able to make that next male investment , at that point you will know.

At that point, it doesn't necessarily mean you must transition, but it will highlight your true nature and change the way you think about your life going forward...it will cause you to think differently about every single decision you make for the rest of your life.

until then you are most likely stuck...
that's pretty stark but its the way it is.

and people that say "oh I don't want to ruin my life" simply do not understand why transsexuals transition even a tiny little bit....there is no feeling of a meaningful life to ruin.....its worse than a living hell

[Badtranny]

Yeah it is pretty interesting when a non-transitioner points out how difficult it is to transition. They don't want to ruin their lives or they don't want to lose their jobs, or they don't want to lose their family, etc, etc.

The implication is that all of us that have put those very things at risk must be delusional to the degree that we don't even notice all that stuff. They're just so much more grounded and level headed than us flighty T-girls that apparently don't have any REAL responsibility. It would be nice to go off and play at being a woman but their lives just won't allow it.

What you have to understand is there is NO argument against transition for somebody who has done it. We put everything at risk too. We've suffered innumerable consequences for our 'selfish' decision.

If you don't want to go all the way then that's great. If you want to live out the fantasy a little bit on the internet then more power to you but remember there are people here who have lost everything and you're basically calling them fools for following their hearts. I mean the average part-timer would never be so foolish right?

[Angela Campbell]

and people that say "oh I don't want to ruin my life" simply do not understand why transsexuals transition even a tiny little bit....there is no feeling of a meaningful life to ruin.....its worse than a living hell

OR.....they are fighting something they do not understand so hard that they grasp at anything they can in hopes of making it all better. This is some scary stuff and if you didn't spend some time fighting it you are seeing things a lot differently than I ever did. I fought it, I lied about it, I made excuses, I avoided it, I cursed it, I denied it, but I didn't do something about it until I felt like I was on a runaway train with something bad coming. I think the excuses are a natural part of the process. Maybe some do not understand why....yet.

By the way...I don't want to ruin my life either. (good luck there huh?)

Maybe the fantasy was after spending 50 years building up the best you could it is hard to let go even if it is an awful life, because you cannot even imagine a better one.

[Marleena]

Actually Ellen your life has already been ruined like so many of us. You are making positive changes now. You're fixing it.

Some are not so lucky as they might never be able to pass or do anything because of health changes or money issues etc. The point was everybody has to decide how far they go and if they can handle it. We can only offer advice. The post ops are the key in this.

[Angela Campbell]

Well there is some truth to that Marleena. My life so far....2 divorces, lost the love of my life, became a complete recluse at the ripe old age of 20, never had a friend to speak of, feel very uneasy in any group of more than 3, spent years obese and unable to do more than just basic hygiene, ....

Yeah who would want to ruin all of that?

Its like that line in An Officer and a Gentleman......I got no where else to go!

[STACY B]

I never understood the ruining of the life an job an family thing ? Don't most people think if they lived there lives as a man for X amount of years an NOW you want to transition you might put a little more thought into all that FIRST ?

You really think that no one will find out ? Maybe get your affairs in order some what an then start ? If you don't want to get busted or own up to all of it you might want to stay in the CD section ? That way you won't be around the Gals that are in the trenches an doing all the day to day things that will make them whole .
Don't get me wrong you can read an look an learn but maybe not comment on the whole transitioning thing in a whole . Folks that are really doing it know for a fact its not about a special little outfit ,, Or what color your hair or nails are ,, These folks have really Bit the Bullet an came out to EVERYONE ,, They can't go back an hide in Camo ,, They have GIRL names ,, They have Boobs ,, They are by all rights Woman ,, But only to be stuck in the middle of it all with no bathroom to use .

So if you come in here an walk in there shoes you would know ,, An mind you ,, You can't take these shoes off EVER !!
An I am no different than the rest ,, I still live in man land also ,, That's why I tread lightly ,, They just let me in here because they LOVE ME ,,, An one day maybe I will catch up ,, Early stager's are Rookies an we learn from the Vets .

Kinda like Bungy jumping an Sky diving ,, Us Bungy jumpers can come back up ,, Those Sky divers aren't ...

[Princess Grandpa]

Yeah it is pretty interesting when a non-transitioner points out how difficult it is to transition. They don't want to ruin their lives or they don't want to lose their jobs, or they don't want to lose their family, etc, etc.

The implication is that all of us that have put those very things at risk must be delusional to the degree that we don't even notice all that stuff. They're just so much more grounded and level headed than us flighty T-girls that apparently don't have any REAL responsibility. It would be nice to go off and play at being a woman but their lives just won't allow it.

What you have to understand is there is NO argument against transition for somebody who has done it. We put everything at risk too. We've suffered innumerable consequences for our 'selfish' decision.

If you don't want to go all the way then that's great. If you want to live out the fantasy a little bit on the internet then more power to you but remember there are people here who have lost everything and you're basically calling them fools for following their hearts. I mean the average part-timer would never be so foolish right?

Do you really believe that's the implication? I sure never meant it that way and am deeply sorry if it came out that way. Obviously you have every social challenge as a TS not transitioning and considerably more than a closeted CD. Add to that the physical pain you must endure.

Obviously on the outside I have no clue what it's really like for you. But i don't believe there was meant to be an implication that you were delusional. Only that your needs outweigh those considerations. I, at this point could easily remain in hiding with virtually no risk. As I understand it, that's not really a valid choice for you ladies anymore than suppressing my part time needs.

I'm not really expressing myself well.

Hug
Rita

[QUOTE=STACY B;3241688
Don't get me wrong you can read an look an learn but maybe not comment on the whole transitioning thing in a whole. [/QUOTE]

Good advice here I guess

Hugs and respect
Rita

[Nigella]

Being TS does not necessarily mean transition, at least in the beginning. There can be many factors which prevent someone going "all the way", just because that does not happen does not mean a person is not TS.

The :BS: radar kicks in when topics you would generally find in the crossdressing forum appear in this one. Just like a genetic woman, you will find few TSs posting about what knickers they wear or how big their boobs are.

A comment was made earlier on how someone can find themselves in the CD side of the forum at the start, but soon finds that they really should be in the TS side. There are late bloomers, just as there are those who know early in life.

This cross section of TSs from early knowers to late bloomers is what makes this forum a valuable source of information.

One thing to remember, there are few moderators who understand the TS side of this spectrum and as this forum is 24/7/365, there will be C Rap posted that stays for a while until an experienced TS moderator can deal with it.

[paulaprimo]

Obviously on the outside I have no clue what it's really like for you. But i don't believe there was meant to be an implication that you were delusional. Only that your needs outweigh those considerations. I, at this point could easily remain in hiding with virtually no risk. As I understand it, that's not really a valid choice for you ladies anymore than suppressing my part time needs.
Rita

i don't have a clue either about what life is like after you do transition. i don't think anyone who hasn't transitioned would understand those of you that have. for those of you that have transitioned, i think that you are very brave and courageous and i have the utmost respect and give you all the credit in the world!



and people that say "oh I don't want to ruin my life" simply do not understand why transsexuals transition even a tiny little bit....there is no feeling of a meaningful life to ruin.....its worse than a living hell

i have never known a single person that has transitioned. my only contact is in this forum and is why i am glad we are all lumped in here together. i use to think that the prize was a full transition, never really put any thought into the life afterwards. here is a great opportunity to enlighten us about that, not to pry of course and strictly voluntary. but this exactly the information we need to know. we will never know how you feel or what life is like unless you tell us.

[whowhatwhen]

You know there used to be a member here who said that unless you were gunning for SRS right off the bat then you were just "a man who thinks he's a woman".
It's funny how so many have so different measures on what a "real" TS is.

I'd say that starting HRT is a good measure since it's doubtful CDs are running into the whole impotence thing headfirst to talk about panties and feeling omg so girlie.
The message I'm seeing is that you're still a man unless you blast out right away with no finesse.

I'm certainly not internally male but there is no f'in way I'm going to blast out completely at this point.
I simply don't have the support network to survive blasting out, that needs to be built and I'm not going to add even more suffering just to increase my cred.

If you want to have a TS Proof clique then just request everyone to sign their name next to their HRT meds or something and ignore all but their posts.
Alternatively ignore the "omg im so girly panties lol doing housework" posts and move on like normal.

[Angela Campbell]

The Dr I see (Psychologist) tells me that not all TS girls end up with SRS and not all of them do a transition the same way. How you go about it is not how a professional determines if you are Ts. Some will "blast out" some will ease into it and some will do otherwise. Some do not transition at all. Most do.

[Badtranny]

The message I'm seeing is that you're still a man unless you blast out right away with no finesse..

No Corinne that's not what any of us are saying. I guess I can see how that can be interpreted but I have never been an advocate for blasting out. In fact, If I could go back and start again, I might have waited another year before I pulled the trigger and went full time. I would have waited for my hair to grow a little more, I would have waited for even more facial hair removal. I may have taken some heat from some of the girls here, but that would have been okay with me, if not welcome.

The reason I put forth such effort to separate the talkers from the doers is really simple. As I began to do, I also began to learn. I've said a hundred times that nothing happened like I expected it would and the truth is, that if I hadn't have done it, then I would still be under some of the misconceptions that I had before I did it. What I don't like is people claiming some kind of moral authority on a subject they have NO experience with. Plenty of 2nd hand knowledge but no experience of their own.

I do not begrudge someone their curiosity or their fascination, but the stuff we talk about here is not stuff that impacts our weekends. What we are doing is an every day thing. Permanent things. I am trading a chunk of my retirement and 2 weeks away from my lovely home (and sweet baby Smudge) to give myself the shape that you can apparently get over in the CD section with only a few months of HRT.

Plenty of the new TS girls are not full-time yet but they are becoming valuable contributors. Steph's story fascinates me because she is a contractor who is now out to everyone and her name has changed so now all of her employees have to start calling her something different. Her wife owns part of the business yet they are divorcing and word is getting out about the 'new girl', how does that sound for a nice day at work? This is the kind of real stuff that we talk about here.

I am not against those that aren't transitioning, rather I am FOR those that are.

[whowhatwhen]

I see what you mean and it seems that so many have such wildly different views on what is enough to say that you're TS or transitioning.
My only problem is someone getting racked over the coals for posting their feelings that at times can be so hard to make sense of.

Where does one post when they feel they no longer fit the CD section yet see an example such as what happened yesterday?
That doesn't change their feelings, it's just now they'll have trouble identifying with both groups.

Honestly I really do admire you girls who've done the big leap, and oddly enough the only reason I even posted my picture was that there were only a few people here keeping theirs up when everyone else was taking theirs down.
I just want others to feel safe in being able to draw strength from the examples you all set.

[Kathryn Martin]

I'd say that starting HRT is a good measure since it's doubtful CDs are running into the whole impotence thing headfirst to talk about panties and feeling omg so girlie.
The message I'm seeing is that you're still a man unless you blast out right away with no finesse.

I'm certainly not internally male but there is no f'in way I'm going to blast out completely at this point.
I simply don't have the support network to survive blasting out, that needs to be built and I'm not going to add even more suffering just to increase my cred.

Corinne, credibility does not come from "blasting out", from blindly running down a path that you cannot sustain. I don't know if you were referring to me when you said a "member" who said that unless you were gunning for SRS then you would just be "a man who thinks he's a woman". Having been born with the condition of transsexualism reveals itself in much more subtle ways. If you listen to the voice of those that speak here (and I don't mean the audible voice), voice that reveals itself in the way people address issues and in their words and use of language then you can determine what is behind the words. I have said many times that transsexuals, we, need to bring our congruence as close as possible to who we are as human beings. And that requires an unalienable desire to make your body whole.

Transitioning is a process not an end in itself. It ends, most of the time with SRS but for those who cannot have SRS because there are true medical issues there are ways to get as close as possible and no one would say they are not transsexual (although that is what they must remain to be until after SRS is possible). While those who have had surgery have become women with a transsexual medical history, those that cannot have surgery remain women with a transsexual medical present. But they are all on the way and may never reach their goal. But if SRS is not what you need with enough intensity that you will do almost anything to reach it, then you are not transsexual but gender variant. In this sense those that do not fall into this category are men who live a dream and sometimes a fantasy of being a woman.

Transition is a process as I said above. In my view and experience not only from my own life but also from the life of others whose transition I have had the privilege to accompany, that careful planning, a measured approach and contingency plans that cover much of what might occur are of utmost importance. Transition is tough because there are always significant set backs that occur as a matter of course. But contrary to popular belief it is not always a massive deconstruction of your life at all. You need your support network, not made of those that come from the "community", albeit there were a few carefully chosen friends that I needed to guide me in those matters that none of my non trans friends and family could give guidance in, you need to be the best person you can be so that you can rely on yourself and your own competence and judgement, you need to make sure you have all of your financial ducks in a row, you need to have contingencies for your worklife.

If you believe that your faults and failures, your idiosyncrasies will vanish in transition you live an illusion, instead they will amplify, and multiply because now in addition to all of what you were before you now have to disrobe from everything learned, learned to survive in a society in which we are simply not understood. You have to let go of those things because they made you the instrument of your own subjugation as who you are just to survive.

And in reading on this board, listening to what people say and how they say it I know who is what. And coming here for those that really need me, Kaitelyn, Kelly, Misty, Frances and a whole lot of others much of what is being gossiped about (and that is what it is when someone who does not understand what it means to be transsexual talks about things they have no knowledge of) becomes a barrier to understanding what must be done and what is needed to be whole. That gossip drowns out what really needs to be discussed.

There is no TS proof clique. Those that are and those that are not reveal themselves almost immediately, at least to me and to many others by what they say.

[emma5410]

In the city I live in there are two transgender groups. Both welcome anyone who has a gender conflict. One of the groups, the social drinking group seemed to be predominantly crossdressers the night I went. Some of them looked fantastic. Perfect make up, dresses that barely covered their behinds, 6 ft men in 6 inch stilettos.. People who are not TS cannot understand why I did not go back.

I have a problem as a TS with being grouped together with crossdressers and drag queens under the transgender label. I am not transgender. My gender is female and it is not changing. Just because we all wear female clothing does not mean we are the same. I am not happy as a man. They are. I do not dress part time. They do. This is not a hobby or a career for me. It is REAL life. 24/7 and some days it is hard to get out of bed and face the world.

I know that some crossdressers are really TS but have not realised it yet. I know that there are those who are TS but have not started to transition yet for a variety of reasons. By transition I mean starting HRT at least. I have no problem with them as people but please do not tell me what it is like to transition. You may be suffering in many ways but you do not understand what it means to transition. Your life is not moving forward. I am not saying that you do not have good reason not to but you cannot have your cake and eat it. You cannot sit on the sidelines and expect anyone to be fooled that you are actually taking part.

I have been TS all my life. If did not start when I first took HRT or went full time.

I used to identify as a crossdresser in my youth when transvestite was the only term I had ever heard to describe a physical male who dresses as a woman.

I was a TS who did not have a compelling need to begin transition. I lived like that for many years.

I have been there and looking back I can tell you that you have no idea of what walking this path involves.

I did not choose to be TS. It is a curse that has ruined my life. To put it right I am going through what sometimes seems like hell.

I do not <giggle> girlishly. I do not care what colour your panties are. I do not care if you eventually transition. Right now, right here we are different.

[Angela Campbell]

As much as I respect you Kathryn...

" But if SRS is not what you need with enough intensity that you will do almost anything to reach it, then you are not transsexual but gender variant."

is just not true.

TS is something you are born with and has some biological sources. It is not a psychological thing. The results have psychological implications. If you are TS you were born that way. Many do not have the unforgiving urge to change the body until later in life, but they were always TS.

[Kathryn Martin]

Ellen if you read all of the research carefully you would find that it actually supports what I am saying. I have spend a lot of time researching this not for me but for the cases I conduct on behalf of transsexual clients. There is indeed a biological basis for transsexualism as was suspected by Harry Benjamin. If you really understand the action of the interaction between genetic changes in transsexuals and the extent of hormonal washes during various periods of gestation you would understand that even intensity is defined by this.

That is why saying you are a woman does not make you one. There is some increasingly solid and real science behind this. It is indeed not at all psychological. Psychological and mental health issues in transsexuals are completely collateral to but not the source of transsexualism.

[kellycan27]

Your papers! Drivers licensees, Snapshots of HRT prescriptions? What's next... Arm bands to separate the true Arians.... Er I mean transsexuals from the Jews ...er I mean not true transsexuals? I guess that as they say... History does often repeat itself. :devil:

[I Am Paula]

Emma, I went to a couple of transgender group meetings (The copious drinking in a bar kind). The crossdressers hung by themselves, and discussed leg shaving, and the transsexuals split off to bitch about ruined lives. I went twice, wondering who the hell THIS was helping. I asked some TS questions I thought were pertinent. The only answer they seemed to agree on was 'Oh no, girl, you got to own it'. The answer a) makes no sense. b)sounds like the TS hookers on Law and Order.
My two favorite questions as I come out to more people:
How long have you been a transsexual?
How long till you're a woman?
To a happily gendered person these seem like reasonable questions.

[Angela Campbell]

. If it has a biological origin (as you agree) then the urge to have srs would begin at birth. It rarely does. They (we) know very young usually that the gender does not match the body, (4 years old for me) but the intensity grows differently for many. This is what I have been told by three different medical professionals. I have found it to be true. I was born this way. I wasn't at the point where SRS is eminent until the last year. I thought I could fight it. Seems this is not uncommon. I was a transsexual from birth. This again was from two of those Doctors. Eventually a "true" transsexual will feel this way. Sometimes it take a while. It took me almost 50 years to get to the point where I am willing to do anything to accomplish it. Of course I always wanted it.

Hate to disagree, because you are one of my "heroes" but in this case I do.

[Marleena]

Your papers! Drivers licensees, Snapshots of HRT prescriptions? What's next...

Lol Kelly. We could make it like Girl Guides and get badges for different levels of TS progress.:D

I think we're talking textbook TS versus real world now? In my twenties I would have had SRS in a heartbeat. My reality is now I'm an old bag and I'm not so sure I need it (yet). I'm not in a position financially anyways.

What we have to be careful with is pushing people to do things but advising them instead.

The you're not my TS friend mentality if you're not doing this or that is kinda weird to me. IMO

I think we kinda got away from the fantasy point here.

[LeaP]

... to give myself the shape that you can apparently get over in the CD section with only a few months of HRT.

Now that's funny!


Where does one post when they feel they no longer fit the CD section yet see an example such as what happened yesterday?
That doesn't change their feelings, it's just now they'll have trouble identifying with both groups.

You probably post here. Just recognize that you may not feel like you fit initially. You'll know soon enough if you really do or not. To Misty's point, there are still discussions here I stay out of. It's not that I would be unwelcome, as I've been here a while, but that anything I wrote would likely be ignorant, irrelevant, or both. On the other hand, I don't hesitate whatsoever in contributing where I do have knowledge and experience. And what I've got, I got the hard way. (Which, unfortunately, appears to be the only way.)

Read and absorb all you like, of course. That's still participating. The reason to stay out of things that are too far in the future is that they are just too iffy – too theoretical. Participating actively in those threads just detracts from the discussion. If I have a burning curiosity on a topic like that, I will usually take it private with one of my friends here.

FWIW

[edit] Oh, and to the fantasy topic, anyone anyone with fantasy notions about SRS should have a look at the pictures in this website. Now there's reality… At least one portion of it.

Pictures NFSW.

glamazon.net/trans/SRS2.html

[moderator edit, link is not suitable for the open forum, copy and paste the link]

Still look like fun?

[Angela Campbell]

I guess I need to spend more time in the cd section........

[Kathryn Martin]

Oh, and to the fantasy topic, anyone anyone with fantasy notions about SRS should have a look at the pictures in this website. Now there's reality… At least one portion of it.
Still look like fun?

Ewwwwww...........:o:D:devil:

Ellen, don't you dare.....


Originally Posted by kellycan27 http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3241921#post3241921)
Arm bands to separate the true Arians.... Er I mean transsexuals from the Jews ...er I mean not true transsexuals?


So I should not have stitched a "W" on my one arm and an "F" on the other? Damn now you are telling me......

[Jorja]

Ellen, do not run off and hide in the CD section. If we cannot agree to disagree sometimes, what is the use in having a forum?

[Marleena]

*grabs Ellen and drags her back into the fray*:)

[Angela Campbell]

Ellen, do not run off and hide in the CD section. If we cannot agree to disagree sometimes, what is the use in having a forum?

but I want the killer bod like Misty says I can have!!!


And Lea I have seen those pics....doesn't bother me one little bit either.

[Beth-Lock]

Think of it this way, how many here can post verifiable proof that they are who they are and on a path to transition?
A few here are admirably loud and proud but aside from that all we have to go on are words.

Actually some of us have met face-to-face, and in circumstances that would verify us as TS. Frances often came to the hospital/convalescence residence in Montreal, when some of us, including myself, were having our SRS. I still have nice memories of sitting on the veranda of the convalescence residence chatting with her, not long after having had my operation, looking out over the well-tended grass down to the river.

Some may not like my attitude, or my cross-dressing talk, etc., but my posting here in the TS section is legit. We all have our issues, and what bothers some, does not boither others.

[Angela Campbell]

Wanna know if I am real? Come on down and visit! Florida is nice.

There are several on this site I have met and know socially.

[DebbieL]

Ellen if you read all of the research carefully you would find that it actually supports what I am saying. I have spend a lot of time researching this not for me but for the cases I conduct on behalf of transsexual clients. There is indeed a biological basis for transsexualism as was suspected by Harry Benjamin. If you really understand the action of the interaction between genetic changes in transsexuals and the extent of hormonal washes during various periods of gestation you would understand that even intensity is defined by this.

Very true. Just recently, this year I believe, they even found that many transsexuals have a genetic trait that prevents their body from processing testosterone in the womb. A classic and easy test is the "finger test" Measure your index finger and your ring finger. Transsexual men and GGs usually have longer index fingers. Males usually have longer ring fingers.

In an MRI, or CAT scan, you can also see that the limbic node, responsible for "fight or flight" is much smaller in women and transsexuals.

At one point, the suspected that this was a birth defect due to poor prenatal care. Several males born during the Holocaust were transsexual and several children born to mothers on antidepressants, stimulants, and certain other medications and recreational drugs also appeared to be transsexual. However, there were many who had normal healthy mothers and still ended up transsexual.

Ironically, this may be one of the reasons we get persecuted as "Sissies" when we are very young children. Having female neurology, our natural instinct is to try to hide or run when threatened, to avoid conflict, and to retreat when pushed or threatened. Often, we will only strike back or lash out when cornered, and then it's much like a mother protecting her children, a life or death situation.


That is why saying you are a woman does not make you one. There is some increasingly solid and real science behind this. It is indeed not at all psychological. Psychological and mental health issues in transsexuals are completely collateral to but not the source of transsexualism.

The psychological factor is the factors that will PREVENT or discourage a transsexual from expressing their true nature, their desire to be female. As children, many of us are threatened, bullied, beaten, and isolated for being effeminate. Furthermore, well-meaning parents will often try to push us into socializing more with boys, not realizing our true desires. Pressure to conform comes from many different sources, including parents, teachers, brother and sisters, classmates, religious leaders, political leaders, social workers, and other care-givers. Depending on when you were born, the pressure may have ranged from extreme (even including torture and organized attacks under the supervision of teachers and care-givers) to relatively mild (isolation, verbal abuse, and being ignored or isolated).

For many of us, puberty is the cruelest cut of all. If you are a biological transsexual and you suddenly find yourself "becoming a man", it's the worst kind of nightmare, I felt like I was becoming a monster, a werewolf. My voice dropped, hair grew where I didn't want it, and I grew to almost 6 foot tall. I tried to stop it every way I could think of. I tried to strangle them with rubber bands, poach them in very hot bath water (even got second degree burns), I even tried crushing them with a 2 by 4 and a hammer. When my eyebrows got bushy I tried to burn them off "accidentally".

By 8th grade, I thought I had reached the point of no return and my focus shifted to ways to commit suicide. Two of my cousins, one gay and both transsexual, had already killed themselves. I tried to do it with combinations of drugs (legal, OTC, & prescription), booze, even poisons. I now know that I had a drug addict metabolism that would take countermeasures to prevent death from overdose (another family genetic feature).

I tried to get others to kill me or castrate me. I'd pick fights I couldn't possibly win (kissing the girl next to the shortest biker, then trying to kiss him). I'd bait bikers, cowboys, truckers, religious fanatics, jocks, and just about anyone who called me names like "queer", "fag", "homo", "fairy", and the like.

By the time I was 15 I was walking down the dotted yellow light on a curvy poorly lit street, usually to intoxicated to walk. I even sat on a bridge, ready to back-flip into I-25, but I realized I was wearing my brother's watch and had to give it back. Completely insane thinking, that saved my life.

There were a few times when I hoped I could "streighten up". When I lost my virginity. When I moved in with my second fiance. When I had my first child. When I had my second child. When my wife threatened divorce. When my ex-wife threatened to have visitation revoked. When I had a shot at my first job with 6 figure income.

Each time, thought I could pretend I was a guy, but ultimately, I was so uncomfortable in my own skin that I finally had to come clean. I had sought help from doctors and therapists from the time I was 5 to the time I was 30. It wasn't until I was 33 years old that I finally met a therapist who knew anything about transsexualism and was qualified to treat it. It took 2 sessions for him to realize that I was full blown transsexual and should probably try to transition. My wife started having an affair, I started going out as Debbie, and eventually gave up wife, children, home, and job. I moved to Denver, where I started RLE and prepared to transition. I met a woman who supported my transition and was soon only going to work as Rex, and even there was beginning to signal transition. My employer knew what I was, and would have supported me, but my wife threatened to have teh visitation revoked completely, so I had to stop.

Even then, I eventually moved to NYC, where I would have legal rights, and took away the threat. A week later, my ex-wife told the kids about my wanting to be a girl and dress up. She hoped the kids would hate me, instead the hated her for making such an issue of it and trading me in for Jerry.

I went back to transition and started more RLE, but this time on my own. Eventually, I was offered a leadership training program that could lead to a substantial increase in income and public recognition, but they told me I had to stop dressing. I ended up blowing away all records, exceeding all measures, but I was unwilling to give up Debbie, so I did not pursue it further.

During the period I had put the clothes in storage, my weight shot up, going from 150 lbs to over 220 lbs, and I couldn't stand to look at myself in a dress anymore. I ended up shooting up to 330 lbs and had a heart attack. The doctors realized something was up when I signed a DNR order prior to the Angiogram. A few years later, I had a stroke, and because of the DNR, they couldn't induce coma.

After that, I realized that I wanted to try to loose weight so I could dress again, and maybe even transition. I lost over 100 lbs, and just before my father died, he told me "be yourself, even if that's Debbie". I started to transition, getting into therapy again, and getting RLE.

When wife tried to tell me to stop transition, I started another crash and burn everywhere. I stopped therapy, started blowing it at work, and just isolated, spending weeks on the road at a time. I had actually mixed a "Prestone Cocktail" (Prestone and Gatoraide), and took a little taste. I could have chugged it, but Debbie screamed out "TRANSITION INSTEAD". I told my doctor what I had been considering, and ended up locked up for about 4 hours. I am now back in gender counseling, getting RLE, and working with my wife, including her in the decision process. She's now going shopping with me, helping me dress more age and situation appropriate, and I'm now able to go out as Debbie as much as I want, and be completely unnoticed. I even fly as Debbie.

The one thought that will drive me to suicide faster than anything is considering the possibility that I would be forced to spend the rest of my life as Rex, and would have to continue to live as Rex. I realize that I HAVE to keep the possibility of transition alive, or just do what it takes to die.

I wish I could complete the process without consequences, without losing status, job, or career. I wish that I could finally live as a woman. I WISH I could be a young and beautiful woman in her twenties, but even a grandma in her late 50s would be better than trying to remain an old man.

I just got a driver's license with a femme picture, even though I didn't have the femme name. The photographer deliberately zoomed in so that I could pass as male or female and could get cleared more quickly by TSA and others checking IDs. The name changes will happen soon, though I will probably keep my original last name (to many other people impacted otherwise).

[Kathryn Martin]

but I want the killer bod like Misty says I can have!!!

What woman doesn't?

But growing up means you work with what you've got......

And Debbie, I love your post but don't call it "femme" what woman has ever called herself "femme"..... it's TG speak....

[Badtranny]

yeah, this thread has kinda gone off the rails.

It's pointless to argue 'levels of TSness'. Kat and I have went for pages in the past but at the end of the day neither of us has changed the other's minds. It's not even worth arguing for me anymore because that's just another thing that has been tempered and informed by my own transition. The more I learn about myself and the more Tgirls I meet, the less rigid my views become about who is what.

In regard to this forum and this thread, the operative word is fantasy. We don't want any of that here. This is where you tell stories about coming out to people in a real way, not getting busted cuz somebody saw your bra-strap. Sometime ago I posted about some problem I was having and somebody actually posted something about feeling better after I get girl time or something. I can't remember exactly what they said but it was basically a total reduction of my whole life at that point to "wearing something girly". This person clearly wasn't paying attention and really it's not their fault their perspective was so different than mine. Whatever they said made sense to them.

Look, I don't want to keep people out of this forum, I want everybody here. People like Marleena and Ellen are not the problem. I don't think either of them has ever posted anything offensive. I guess what we're really talking about here is people that pass themselves off as something they aren't. They haven't actually done anything but they say they have yet their field reports seem a little bit off. None of this matters to me personally because I am living my truth, but there are girls behind me that don't know any better yet. As I was coming through the early stages of my transition there were girls on this board who I thought were ahead of me only to find out that were just part-timers that were still going out in the next town. If even that.

I have no quarrel with part-timers, I know several personally and they're quite lovely people but oddly enough NONE of those girls frequent the trans discussions. Maybe that's why I like them, cuz they're real.

I kind of started getting over this whole thing the last time we had a big barn buster thread about it. The newer girls like Simone are experiencing this for themselves now. Showing deference to someone who you find out months later is only out to 6 people just makes you feel like a schmo.

[LeaP]

So I should not have stitched a "W" on my one arm and an "F" on the other? Damn now you are telling me......

It's the "T" in the middle that makes it so charming, Kathryn. :D

[PaulaQ]

FWIW, from my perspective, the people who post obviously silly stuff may be annoying, but someone can ignore that stuff. (Sure, it's annoying.) And I can see how you go girl! type encouragement isn't exactly helpful to someone who isn't sure whether or not they should transition.

But I'll tell you - my experience was that I have had a hard time getting taken seriously here, despite some of my past cries for help. I'm fairly stubborn, and I somehow always seem to refuse to just die, but not everyone might hang on. I think some of the negativity and discouraging comments from some go beyond "so you want to transition - this is really hard" and sometimes seem to be aimed at PREVENTING people from seeking to transition. If we weren't talking about a medical condition, but a rather extreme (and generally ill advised) social decision, that would be one thing. (Really, we're kind of talking about both - a series of medical treatments with often terribly serious social and sometimes serious medical complications.)

I think some of this type of talk is really dangerous. Can you imagine a cancer forum where people were discouraged from seeking chemo, or told - "nah, you probably don't have cancer?"

A fair amount of this type of talk, seemed to me, comes from people who are likely not trans in any way, shape, nor form. But not all of it.

This wouldn't be so bad if the medical community mostly stepped up to the plate and helped us figure out what was wrong with us. But my experience is that not only do they abdicate most of their responsibility towards diagnosis, but the AMA just doesn't give a shit about trans people.

So a lot of us end up having to diagnose ourselves. (Excuse me, be led on a path of self discovery by a therapist.) Then we have to find docs that will deal with us. (And often prove it to them.) So we come onto a forum trying to figure out WTF is wrong with us, and people here question whether or not we are serious? Does this seem right to any of you?

I mean, how many people who aren't serious can leap the goddamned hurdles to get medical treatment for being TS? Do you really need to discourage so strongly the people who fantasize about this stuff. (Other than strongly discouraging people who seem to be fantasizing from taking self-prescribed and dosed hormone treatments - that can be extremely dangerous. I know some TS folks have no choice because of their local medical community, and that it is a desperate roll of the dice, still, those folks probably aren't going to start off saying "wondering what I'll look like with boobs - thinking of ordering hormones over the internet, tee hee.") The social issues one has to deal with are pretty big barriers too.

Anyway, that's been my experience. Maybe it's just me - but I feel like I have this terrible medical condition that's making me want to end myself, and is tearing my life apart. And yet - nobody wants to diagnose it, and really nobody wants to treat me for it. And then I better think about it again - because what if I make an impulsive decision? (As if I could do that - given the slow pace of medical treatments.) And then I come to the forum here, and gee, some people try to discourage me from seeking treatment for a condition that, as best I can tell (because nobody in the medical community has the balls to step up and actually diagnose what's wrong with me), is trying to end me.

Don't get me wrong - I've gotten some very understanding and supportive and genuinely helpful responses here too. But is the negativity really so neccessary?

[Ann Louise]

Yes Paula, I agree with you whole-heartedly, and IMO it's not being considered as "not serious," but rather being called a LIAR, both implicitly or explicitly, that is particularly hurtful to the emotionally vulnerable girls here. Now let's see what the next salvo of "truth" might be...

[Kaitlyn Michele]

As you know paula, I took you very seriously...who discouraged you from seeking treatment and what did they say?

This OP was not about hurt feelings of people that are honestly questioning their gender and wondering whether the deep feelings they have been fighting are a transsexual condition hitting a group of nasty ts women on a forum
All a person has to do is post a couple times in response and its totally obvious who is in trouble and who is in lala land..

If a person that is starting this struggle and expressing it by fantasizing about ANYTHING related to transition, they are best served to cut out the BS immediately.
If a person that wants to transition gets their feelings hurt by having to step up and be honest to some mean transsexual then they are screwed anyway..
..and what about the emotionally vulnerable girls here that are ACTUALLY TRANSSEXUAL reading these lala posts...

Daily real life is filled with transsexual women that play this exact role for other ts women in and outside of therapy.. I was told no!, NO!!! and NOOOOO!!!!!! many times ..I didn't view it as negativity, it was an abundance of common sense.
You kind of want to be sure in these matters.
All we are talking about is calling BS on BS posts...that's it.

Be as snarky as you want Ann, liars are liars and there is no room for it in meaningful communication.
We are saying lets keep all communication here as meaningful as possible. If you set off the TSBS detector then you have to step up and turn it off....its actually pretty easy

Also, how about you step up and provide meaningful support to folks?
how about if you come here every day and directly engage people on the same topics?? over and over again.
talk about details of your life and specific life impacting advice and ideas?
or share specific details about your family and job and medical procedures you've done or are considering??
tell everyone over and over like many of us do how you are doing, what is the intensity of your feelings? how high and how low has it been? and all with selfless brutal honesty.

because that's what i see the best people here do..

[Ann Louise]

Kaitlyn, I've tried to live my life, on line and offline, in as true and honest a way that I feel safe in doing. I've been engaged in internet chat in its various forms since it started, at least since 1987 or so. One of the implicit fundamentals of all chat, as it was then called, was anonymity. It was precisely due to anonymity that many thousands of formerly closeted LGBT like me were able to peek out from our closets and interact publicly, for the first time. For many that remains their only way to be themselves.

One of the most fundamental elements of privacy, beyond our true, legal identities, is medical information. In fact, legal and administrative protection of the confidentiality of our medical information is one of the fundamental protections afforded to us by our clinics, hospitals, and places of employment.

The combination of internet anonymity, and medical confidentiality both come in to play for me when I act on the internet. A realm of honest, good hearts, egoists, the rude and careless, and outright sick villains. Due to the aforementioned, I am usually instinctively extremely cautious about who I interact with on the net, and the extent that I am willing to divulge elements of my identity and medical information. As it now stands I would imagine that I have divulged sufficient information on this forum that an amateur sleuth using Google could appear at my front door ringing the doorbell within the hour if I issued the challenge.

The underlying emotional support that has enabled me to share here, to the extent that I have, although apparently insufficient to you, is trust. And why would one accord this trust to an internet chat room? Because we seek to gain something, whether it be kindness, information, companionship, or the continued inflation of an apparently already massively inflated ego.

I have engaged in private messages, and off-forum email and social media communication in matters concerning our transsexuality with many of the members here, and am now fortunate to count many of them as new and increasingly dear friends. How? Why? Because I trust them.

I cannot yet seem to accord that level of trust to the open TS forum because I have observed seemingly thoughtless, and in some cases apparently willful exclusions of newcomers here through labeling, impenetrable psychological reasoning, assertions of medical facts, and outright accusations of lying. Most of this remaining unchecked and without censure from members like you, who yet have been quite willing to subject me to your attempt here to administer to me a public spanking.

You perhaps can't help but notice that this TS forum has gained a reputation for being an unforgiveable place to noobs and others that don't, can't, or won't pass the various "tests" that are routinely applied here. Count me among the latter. I won't be bullied into divulging any personal, private information that I am not prepared to divulge to the entire online world. Nor will I be pushed off of this forum, or silenced or manipulated by several of the outsized egos here.

Thank you for the constructive elements of your comments directed to me. I promise to moderate my sarcasm from here forward. Ann

[Kimberly Kael]

I think some of the negativity and discouraging comments from some go beyond "so you want to transition - this is really hard" and sometimes seem to be aimed at PREVENTING people from seeking to transition.

Sadly, it can go the other direction as well. Those who cheerlead others into transition instead of painting a realistic picture. The problem is that there isn't a single objective reality of what to expect. Our experiences are incredibly diverse to the extent that I had trouble identifying with some of the earlier posts in this thread (real transitioners are identifiable because they've ruined their lives? Really?) So it's a mistake to exclude some voices and not others because you need diversity to get decent representation.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't express doubt or concern about posts. That's the nature of healthy discourse. Attacking the individual, on the other hand, leads nowhere. The message is fair game, not the messenger. I dislike the notion of official verification for all kinds of reasons, most of which have already been raised. If someone is concerned about my reality they're welcome to find a member nearby to meet me for lunch or coffee some day. Beyond that it really does get into "papers please" territory.

[whowhatwhen]

Kathryn: I was actually referring to Katesback who would go into the CD section and say something to the effect of "all CDers eventually transition" and then post the "really a man" stuff if they weren't doing it fast enough or the "correct" way.

[Nigella]

This thread has gone as far as it can and way off the original OP