To Be Honest or Not to Be?

[MysticLady]

Hello Everybody, I hope this note finds all of you in Good Health and Spirit.

I've read countless posts on being honest w/ the one you Love. That Honesty and Trust is the best policy. I agree completely but, resorting to my wife and I's case, I sometimes wonder if I should have NOT told her this about me. The trouble this has caused both of us regarding this, is unbelievable. It has caused a separation and quite possibly a divorce. If I would have kept this to myself, I would have been a home w/ my family and just dealing w/ normal life. My wife would have been happy with her husband and children and living the dream of a girl, getting married and raising a family. My honesty shattered that dream and life for her. She's hurt and feels cheated. If I would have kept this secret to myself(I'm pretty stealthy) she would be happy. What would be the difference if she busted me later w/ this? We would still be burdened w/ the same issue. It's like, damned if you do and damned if you don't.

What your thoughts on this? I would especially invite GG's to answer this because maybe, I may be able to understand the emotions, anger, cheated feelings my wife says she is experiencing.(Sheesh, I didn't commit infidelity or anything) She keeps saying, I just don't understand.:straightface:

[ArleneRaquel]

My my 33 year marriage my wife, who passed in 2002, was never told of my CD life, nor do I believe that she ever caught on. I believe if I had told her that the marriage would be over.

[RADER]

My wife new of my dressing from the start; It was great, she would show me things I should get from the catalogs.
It was nice not having to sneak around with anything.
Rader

[AllieSF]

I always say that telling is the best in the long run even if it results in new separate lives beginning, and if the TGism is fairly strong and disrupting to one's normal personality and character. I believe that because living in misery is not good for the primary person, nor for anyone around them. That being said, I also totally respect each person's right and responsibility to make their own decisions based on their own specific circumstances. No one else can tell one what to do, they just don't know everything.

People that say the marriage probably had problems to start with, with or without the TG issues, may be correct. But more than 50% of all marriages end in divorce for whatever reasons, plus a lot of marriage couples stay together when they shouldn't. So, based on my quick and simple math, the marriages that don't have problems are in the minority and maybe even in the greater minority. Such is life. I have also read a few, not a lot, of posts where the SO stated that she would rather her partner keep it a secret. Telling all is also sharing all. For the unsuspecting spouse, that usually means more of the cons than the pros. They then start sharing the burden.

Only you can make that decision and maybe even make it work over the long run, which I also think is not a sure thing.

[Julie Gaum]

Can't, obviously, contribute as a GG but speak from the experience of so many others: Do not be hard on yourself for coming out when you did. You did a service for self and a big one for your spouse. You have already accepted the fact that sooner or later the truth will out. Yes, you would have had perhaps many years enjoying the family life with all it entails but then, at some later time
when your wife has very reduced options as to how to deal with that knowledge you spring it on purpose or by accident. Instead you now have provided her with many more roads to travel. Your children will adapt or not --- not a decision altering issue.
Even without knowing all the contributing details I feel confident that your decision was the right one for all involved
Julie

[Rogina B]

If you "T" mindset is as strong as many others,your cork would pop anyway. Look at the ages of the posters here that are dealing with marriage issues as a result of their "T mind". Seems obvious to me that often suppression just leads to an eventual explosion if the mindset is strong enough. In your case,you post that you are "t something",so how could you really hold that in AND PRETEND to be happy? I think you need to have a joint session at a gender savvy councilor and try to help your wife understand you better. At least you will feel better if things don't work out..you tried!

[arbon]

Keeping the secret of Crossdressing is like cheating
Better to be honest and let your wife decide if she can stay or if she needs to move on

[MysticLady]

In your case,you post that you are "t something",so how could you really hold that in AND PRETEND to be happy?

Since CDing is under the TG umbrella, I guess I'm a TCD. Ooops, a CDt. Anyway, since I've been alone, I haven't run off and want too transition or anything, I am a man and like being a man. I just like wearing a dress once in a while.(Big Deal). No, I was not happy when I repressed it, I was a meanie and I don't like being a meanie. But she feels like I'm not the same person anymore.

[Marleena]

Honest is the best policy<---I actually hate that saying. It has to be an awful lot of stress hiding something so important from your wife. Some women can never accept it and you take a chance of the marriage being over. It's sad but a necessary evil to come clean.

[Sometimes Steffi]

I don't think that honestly is always the best policy. Thre is a risk in being honest and a risk in continuing to hide. You have to assess the potential consequences and the risk and make your own decision as to whether or not you can live with the consequences. I myself lean more to the hiing side.

[heatherdress]

As much as I think honesty is essential to any relationship, I can understand that there are some circumstances when non disclosure may be better, for the spouse or partner or children. If someone enjoys wearing female underwear, and if they know their spouse or partner well enough to know that they would be deeply confused or hurt, isn't it OK to keep it secret? It is impossible to be so absolute in all situations.

Don't we often keep illnesses, and pain, and worries to ourselves? Maybe we should share our burdens, but sometimes we do not want those we love to worry.

It is usually best to be open and honest with those we love. It is usually best to share crossdressing behavior or desires with those we love. But maybe not.

There are some things that we do, that are best kept to ourselves, if we really believe that we will hurt someone we love more by telling them. But if we do not confide, we run the risk of hurting them even more.

MysticLady, you should not second guess yourself. You apparently did what was best for you and your wife. I hope things work out for the best.

[jayme357]

I found that I was so miserable when the urge became so overpowering. I was doing my wife such an incredible disservice by not being a loving husband but rather a terribly frustrated crossdressers. My behavior toward her was awful. The intensity of my needs were so powerful that I ended up being an absolute jerk. She did not deserve that. We are no longer together and I have to bear the responsibility for that situation. I now can dress pretty much as much as I want. What a price to pay.

[Rachelakld]

Is it truly love, if you let your wife live a life that was actually a lie. The sooner a loved one knows, the more choices they have. Sorry she chose to leave, but as my wife was abused in her last marriage, she thinks CD is much less harmful.

[ArleneRaquel]

jayme,
Thank you for sharing your tragic, heart breaking story. Love & Hugs !

[Jenniferathome]

I do not think you are being honest with yourself. "Cross dressing" nor telling her, caused your separation nor will it be the cause of a divorce. It can be a last straw but that means there were many other straws.

[Dana L]

Being honest is the right thing to do. If you've been a good husband and father she may just need some time to take it all in. Couples therapy may give your wife a better incite into your need to CD. It's not your fault your born that way and to suppress it will eat you away on the inside. Besides you can't suppress it forever someday it will come back.

[mrsjbperry]

well for me being a GG i would to know. and my husband told me. but how i found out was over Skype, but for me i rather have found out in person. we are going to be married for 4 years this year. but everyone is different. if it was me i would be hurt if i didn't find out at all. i had a feeling that he was keeping something from me. and i thought that he was going to tell me we where going to get a divorce or he was cheating on me. but i am thankful that all it was was him cross dressing.

[Nikki68]

First off, it is NOT you tellin her that was the betrayal, it was her rejection. She can feel cheated that you hid it as long as you did, but to reject you for who you are.
conditional love isn't true love at all. "Oh I love you as long as you conform to all my expectations....?" Forget that noise!!!
Have some friggin self esteem girl! You deserve a mate who loves YOU, at your core, not who you are supposed to be inside THIER preconcieved notions of who you're SUPPOSED to be.

I want to give you a hug and cry with you!!!!
I can only promise that there is someone out there that will dig you just the way you are. Sucks it wasn't her. Her loss.
And any who would be content living a lie inside a long term relationship? Well, that's really no different that cheating. Its lying and dishonesty.

[Angie G]

I know woman are all different in what they think or can take in there mans behavior.As in crossdressing my wife is good with it. And I know some of our friends would not be.I'm very lucky I can be open with my lady.I started slow to where I'm at now My wife will even from time to time buy things for my girl side.And was fine with my wanting breast forms.That's the way it is some are good with it some arn't. Sorry to hear yours couldn't take it hun Hopefully someday maybe she will be okey with it who knows.:hugs:
Angie

[TeresaCD]

I found that I was so miserable when the urge became so overpowering. I was doing my wife such an incredible disservice by not being a loving husband but rather a terribly frustrated crossdressers.
I now can dress pretty much as much as I want. What a price to pay.
To me, that's the issue with not telling a spouse.
Telling is risky, but I believe it naïve to think that not telling has no impact.
I also sincerely believe each person must make up their own mind about what to do or not do, as only they know what their situation is.
And what the consequences may or may not be..

[ErinSassyPants]

I think that the problem is that you were not honest with her before marrying her. You can't say that honesty is the problem when you finally share something after years or lying. It's the years of lying that caused the problem. You robber her of her right to make an informed decision about one of the most important decisions she will ever make.

[Princess Grandpa]

If I had come to understand what's going on with me in some other manner, I don't know that I could ever have brought myself to tell her. I read so many stories that bring me to tears here its frightening. I find myself needing nothing as much as to just hold Julie and hope this doesn't somehow become my fate. Even now as I think about what so many of you endure I have to stop typing to clear away tears.

Know this. You acted with honor and courage! I would be proud to call you friend. I would hope I could have responded as you did. But in my heart of hearts I know I would have been too cowardly. I could never advise anyone when I see threads questioning whether to come out. The repercussions can be so severe, with no real idea how it might play out.

The ladies who need to transition, they really have no choice. It's die a slow painful death or come out and begin the healing, If I understand things correctly. For someone like me I could easily enough spend a lifetime hiding and maybe not get caught. I surely wouldn't be able to get to know Rita as I have the opportunity to do now. Just as you have been able to enjoy being Vicky. As Jayme said, what a price to pay.

You could have enjoyed your family for many more years maybe. Suppressing things until you could stand it no longer. Quite possibly avoiding what you have now for many many years. What would be the price on your soul of suppressing this? Of course if/when it blew up then you would have years of hiding and lying to heap the guilt on. Possibly you feel a bit guilty now. But that would be unjustified and only an emotional mind %^*\ that we play on ourselves. After all its not like we choose this. If however you had been lying all those years...

I want to ask questions that might be inappropriate, if they are please attribute it to stupidity not anything malicious. Where do you see yourself on the gender scale? Do you see transitioning in your future or are you just a dude who needs to sometimes feel like a lady? Now that your separated, how often do you dress up! I have seen mention of kids. How old are they? Do you have visitation? Again if I'm asking what I shouldn't I mean NO disrespect.

Hug
Rita

[Jacqueline Winona]

Mystic, there are rarely any universally true answers to any questions, and this is one of those. Some women really don't want to know this, and some just can't get past it when they learn of it. But I think Steffi is right on this. If dressing is really just something you do once in a while and not something you just have to do nearly every day, and if it would crush your wife and family, I can see why disclosure isn't the right course for some. Just don't go crazy spending time and money on this and remember you have to follow through and live with the fact that you've agreed to limit your dressing by not talking.

[MysticLady]

I do not think you are being honest with yourself. "Cross dressing" nor telling her, caused your separation nor will it be the cause of a divorce. It can be a last straw but that means there were many other straws.

Why does everyone keep saying that there is other issues that were the cause? Yes, we had our issues but, it was nothing that would have separated us. I know this, because she told me. If it was a normal life issue aside from infidelity she would have lived w/ it.


I think that the problem is that you were not honest with her before marrying her.

This was not an issue when I married her. The thoughts of it, would leave as fast they came, and, they were very, very rare. I always thought it was a fluke on my part. Never really worried about it. This issue was not a problem until middle of last year. So, it's not like I hid anything from her. It was never an issue w/ me. I never gave it a second thought, until a year ago. Then, it became a fire that I had to quench and that's when I started the dressing thing.



I want to ask questions that might be inappropriate, if they are please attribute it to stupidity not anything malicious.
Where do you see yourself on the gender scale?
Do you see transitioning in your future or are you just a dude who needs to sometimes feel like a lady?
Now that your separated, how often do you dress up!
I have seen mention of kids. How old are they? Do you have visitation?

Hug
Rita

Hi Rita
lets see..

On the gender scale.....I'm a man, and I like being a man but, I also enjoy the fem thing once in while. So, I'd say Just a CD occasionally

Now, since I've lived alone for going on 6 months, I've dressed @ 5 times, maybe 6, Fully dressed. I don't underdress.

My kiddos are young and I see them when I want. We're not divorced yet, just separated.

So anyway, I think my wife is just weird. She, like thinks that I was her prince charming or something, time to wake up. I bet she'd rather I turned into a Toad or something.:straightface:

[PaulaQ]

Victoria - you clearly shouldn't have come out. What exactly did you do that's so wrong?

You hid something about yourself that society chooses to freak out over, and judge and blame you for.

You can't BE honest in day to day life, so you "have to come out" or be a big liar. Yeah, you are considered a liar because you chose to protect yourself. Because who exactly is harmed by crossdressing? The "harm" is that people freak out over it, discriminate against you, and do every goddamned thing they can do to make sure YOU FEEL ASHAMED OF YOURSELF FOR NOT BEING A MAN!

Just because society doesn't approve of this in any way, shape, nor form, especially in the past, is that any reason to HIDE THE TRUTH ABOUT YOURSELF?

Obviously, many, many people on this forum feel like the answer to that is "HELL NO! You should tell because the social order must be maintained, damn the consequences to yourself."

So congrats to you. All the women who stick with compulsive gamblers, alcoholics, and drug addicts - yeah, it's their fault for sticking with that bum. But since you are a CD, hell, it's all on you babe. Even though you hurt not a soul. You shoulda told her in advance, so that there is a TINY chance she'd have accepted you, obut most likely would've outed you to a bunch of people, screwing your life over, but good. <golf clap>

BTW, if your wife does have some secret she never told you - wanna bet people would come to her defense if you were angry about it, upon finally learning it years later? Because hey, what's the harm in a little secret that doesn't hurt anyone?

The hypocrisy in all of this makes me vomit.

If I were just an occasional CD, there is no freaking way I'd have told my wife. I KNEW how she'd react.

I'm very sorry you are going through this. I feel your pain. I'm going through it too.

[PaulaQ]

I do not think you are being honest with yourself. "Cross dressing" nor telling her, caused your separation nor will it be the cause of a divorce. It can be a last straw but that means there were many other straws.

Oh looky look - it's Jenniferathome, touting her favorite theory "just being a CD can't wreck a marriage", despite all evidence to the contrary. I guess if you ignore the evidence though, then you can make yourself believe anything you want.

[Princess Grandpa]

Again I say you acted with courage and honor! I'm so sorry for how it played out. Do you think there is a chance of things working out? Other than you lying to her and possibly yourself? Would love to read a happy ending! Don't make the mistake of thinking the kids would be better off if you made yourself scarce. No matter what happens with the wife the kids need you. Five or six times in the past six months? I have to be honest an overnighter in a hotel room once a month to be Victoria doesn't seem so unreasonable. If you ever need a long distance friend...

Hug
Rita

[Lorileah]

, I sometimes wonder if I should have NOT told her this about me. The trouble this has caused both of us regarding this, It has caused a separation and quite possibly a divorce Two ways to look at this. First, you could have kept it a secret. Eventually it would come out ( I don't care HOW good you think you are...even if you died before...it will come out and then she would be even MORE devastated except then she would not have anyone she could talk to about it.), Second, you would have been living a lie, keeping you from her and pretending to be something you are not. You would be in essence controlling HER life. Not allowing her the right to make a decision on her own. Assuming you know more than she does. I still say that cross dressing is NOT a reason for divorce. It is the collateral stuff. You kept something a secret from her. What is she supposed to feel? "Oh that's OK I am sure there isn't anything else I need to worry about now". After X number of years, it is the reveal that is the shock. You didn't allow her to do any thinking on her own. I would be angry also (in fact I was when I was in a similar situation). It isn't the thing it is the hiding and sneaking.
If I would have kept this to myself, I would have been a home w/ my family and just dealing w/ normal life. My wife would have been happy with her husband who was keeping things from her...ignorance is bliss?

I may be able to understand the emotions, anger, cheated feelings my wife says she is experiencing.(Sheesh, I didn't commit infidelity or anything) She keeps saying, I just don't understand.:straightface: My story has been posted here many times. It wasn't infidelity that hurt. I could handle that (in fact I don't expect 100% fidelity...I know how humans work). What hurt ME the most was the fact that she didn't think I needed to know something. That she knew much better what I would do or say (which is probably totally wrong). What hurt me is that she felt that keeping something from me was better for her? (I know she thought I would leave or something...I would not have) or better for me (I don't even know how this would have been). I fully understand why men keep this a secret...I do...I was there..I have the T shirt. But the advantage here is that WE now know that we should come out early. I am so tired of the "Back in my day we didn't have teh internet" You HAVE it now, and you should know that you are not the only one and you should also know that your SO is 50% of the partnership...so disclosure is important. Sorry you are having so many issues but short of you not being around (death) these issues would have come up sometime. Yeah you would not be feeling the pain but hers would be even greater. Trying to explain this to a man is almost impossible when they have not experienced what a secret or lie your SO keeps from you feels like. It isn't the act...it is the fact you hide things that the SO should be allowed to make decisions on themselves.


Oh looky look - it's Jenniferathome, touting her favorite theory "just being a CD can't wreck a marriage", despite all evidence to the contrary. I guess if you ignore the evidence though, then you can make yourself believe anything you want.


I agree with Jennifer...it isn't the reason for a divorce. It may be the last straw but really, don't you see that it isn't the clothes...you kept her from making her decision...you perpetuated that over time. She built equity in the partnership, equity that was built on her assuming you were being honest and forthright. She didn't have the facts. You destroyed what she built because you didn't allow her to make her own decisions early on. It isn't the fact you dress it is the fact you didn't trust her with everything.

[Dana L]

This was not an issue when I married her. The thoughts of it, would leave as fast they came, and, they were very, very rare. I always thought it was a fluke on my part. Never really worried about it. This issue was not a problem until middle of last year. So, it's not like I hid anything from her. It was never an issue w/ me. I never gave it a second thought, until a year ago. Then, it became a fire that I had to quench and that's when I started the dressing thing.:
Like you I thought my Cding was a thing of the past when I got married, little did I know it would come back. So I didn't lie to her and I came out to her when I realized this was more than a passing thing. It came as a shock to her but it's all good now.

[ReineD]

My honesty shattered that dream and life for her. She's hurt and feels cheated.

It's not your honesty that shattered the marriage. It is your (both of you) inability to practice sound relationship skills, such as communication about the fundamental things, LISTENING to one another, BELIEVING one another, desiring to not get into an impasse, coming up with solutions, negotiating in good faith, and coming up with compromises. Real compromises. This means that you both get a little and you each give up stuff.

This is what couples in successful marriages do.

[Lorileah]

It's not your honesty that shattered the marriage. It is your (both of you) inability to practice sound relationship skills, ....

:yt: so simply explained.

[PaulaQ]

It's not your honesty that shattered the marriage. It is your (both of you) inability to practice sound relationship skills, such as communication about the fundamental things, LISTENING to one another, BELIEVING one another, desiring to not get into an impasse, coming up with solutions, negotiating in good faith, and coming up with compromises. Real compromises. This means that you both get a little and you each give up stuff.

This is what couples in successful marriages do.

Gosh, I wish I had the power to diagnose people's marriages, and to have seemingly telepathic knowledge of their lives over the internet!

Because you are so right - being a CD is so minor, and so widely accepted as being just a minor little quirk, if that, that NOBODY could possibly just totally freak out over it!!!! I mean, that's why I see guys in skirts every day. Geeze, if a wife can't accept THAT, then good grief, that marriage must've totally sucked.

Would you people just listen to yourselves?

[MysticLady]

I have to be honest an overnighter in a hotel room once a month to be Victoria doesn't seem so unreasonable. If you ever need a long distance friend...


Thank You Rita. That's what I thought, but no, let's freak out over it.:doh:


Two ways to look at this. First, you could have kept it a secret

Hi Lorileah, 3 months from when I starting dressing to the time I told her. Only because I thought again, it was a fluke and that I would get over it. 3 months to realize it wasn't going away this time. Is that keeping a secret from her?



You destroyed what she built because you didn't allow her to make her own decisions early on. It isn't the fact you dress it is the fact you didn't trust her with everything.

Well Gee, I'm glad I didn't have a stroke that left me a paraplegic, she would have dropped me off a home and said, See Ya, you didn't tell me when you married me that you were going to have a stroke and I would have too lug your ass around for the rest of my life.


It came as a shock to her but it's all good now.

I'm very happy for you Dana, that's it working out. Don't let your guard down though, then tend to freak out. You just gotta love them GG's.:hugs:

[busker]

I It's the years of lying that caused the problem.
Clearly, he did not lie . In order for that to happen, his wife would have had to directly ask him if he was a crossdresser, and he would have to reply NO--that would be lying. Non disclosure would be better, but then there are many circumstances in the world that use non disclosure to protect people. Your government does it every day, and on some days, they LIE through their teeth. Monitoring your phone calls, reading your mail, monitoring your travel, the shape of the economic world. I don't see anyone running to give up their citizenship over these lies that effect all of us in direct ways that take away of liberties. Me thinks the "lying aspect" is a bit over used as a reason for drastic behaviour. If she had discovered her husband was a hitman for the CIA, maybe I could understand, but crossdressing is so innocuous--generally.

[Jenniferathome]

It's not your honesty that shattered the marriage. It is your (both of you) inability to practice sound relationship skills, such as communication about the fundamental things, LISTENING to one another, BELIEVING one another, desiring to not get into an impasse, coming up with solutions, negotiating in good faith, and coming up with compromises. Real compromises. This means that you both get a little and you each give up stuff.

This is what couples in successful marriages do.

The problem Reine, is that these very people delude themselves into thinking they have healthy relationships and therefore, they blame a single aspect of that relationship. It's a cop out but you can can only lead a horse to water....

[PaulaQ]

If she had discovered her husband was a hitman for the CIA, maybe I could understand, but crossdressing is so innocuous--generally.

It is very obvious to me that even some of the supposedly supportive people on this forum don't believe this, that crossdressing is so innocuous. And you know why they don't believe it - because we don't believe it ourselves, because we can't because society says this isn't innocuous. For whatever reason, being a guy in a dress is a MUCH WORSE failing than compulsive gambling, alcoholism, or even extra-marital affairs. (I know my wife would've much preferred dealing with infidelity. She told me so, quite a number of times.


The problem Reine, is that these very people delude themselves into thinking they have healthy relationships and therefore, they blame a single aspect of that relationship.

Cool - another internet telepath! You know this how? Oh right - you DO NOT, and are guessing because it confirms your hypothesis.

Do you even have a heart Jenniferathome?

[Greenie]

While I think its important to note that I honestly DO believe there are women who would end relationships JUST because of CDing. I don't know how many times I have heard well "I couldn't do what you do kae" or "I would have just broken up/divorced him". While I agree that it is not a good reason to be break off a marriage or relationship no relationship is perfect, even ones without CDing. So to say that there are no issues besides CDing is an issue on its own. But we only know one side of most of the stories we hear. We hear the husbands view of the wife's reactions not the wives. We can't really make educated decisions and advice on only 50% of the story. So can we really know?

Do I think you should have continued to deceive your wife on a subject that is so important to you? No. I think that if you hadn't and she had found out some other way, that alone could be a catalyst for divorce. Having a "double" life, would have been a really bad idea. But there is a time and place for all truths, maybe how you told her, or when. Maybe her emotional state is to fragile. We don't really know enough to tell you about that I think.

[busker]

.it is the fact you hide things that the SO should be allowed to make decisions on themselves.

It would, in fact, be interesting to know what things people "hide" from the spouses that would result in divorce. What in fact is a deal breaker?I can't imagine every spouse being thrilled when their husbands go hunting and they don't like it, or when they decide to buy that corvette because they need that mid-life crisis toy and the wives know they can't afford it. does that end a marriage? Maybe, but it wouldn't be the real reason. Is crossdressing the only real thing men do that usually ends a marriage? And, what decision exactly would they be making if they knew in the beginning. To marry or not to marry. well, OK, that would be or not. then what. How would life be different? Is it like the guy who gets married and then says, Oh, yeah, I forget to tell you, I owe 200000$ for school loans and we'll be paying it off for the rest of our lives. Homophobia doesn't ever seem to come up in these issues and discussions of divorce for cds, but one wonders. Is it really, "I've lost my man?" just some thoughts.

[MysticLady]

The problem Reine, is that these very people delude themselves into thinking they have healthy relationships and therefore, they blame a single aspect of that relationship. It's a cop out but you can can only lead a horse to water....

Jennifer, I suspect your relationship w/ your wife turned out good and she accepts your cross-dressing. I very happy for you. But, not every relationship is like yours. Your dynamics are much more different than mine. So, sometimes your advice makes no sense to the folks w/ marriages like mine. I "was" my wife's prince charming, she paraded me like a king. I was her all. I was her Man. I was her Protector. Her Parents honor me immensely. There is NO way her man is going to dress like a woman..................period.

[Princess Grandpa]

For what it's worth I asked Julie this question. I asked her to consider A) I understood what I was doing and instead of lying to myself as well I was only lying to her about it. B) she couldn't handle the dressing.

On the first part she was adamant it would have to be handled exactly as you did. To survive I would have had to come clean, not just get caught.

On the second point; thank the gods she can't understand why it's a deal at all. Yes if I needed to transition that she says would be a deal breaker. "Playing dress up? What's the big deal? It was always the men that got pretty if you look back in history so why is it a problem now?" I am one lucky schmuck!

The following is not Julie but my own opinions because I can never just shut up when I should.
As far as CD not being enough to kill an already healthy marriage; I have to say that's totally up to the couple. Coming up on my 30th anniversary I feel confident in discussing successful marriages. The difference between the marriages that last and the marriages that don't is a choice. It's choosing not to quit when you feel you should. It's not a choice either one has control over. It takes both people choosing to stick it out. At points in every marriage things get crappy. Some of us quit and some of us are too stubborn or stupid to and we stick it out until we wind up happy again at some point.

Pls don't misunderstand what I'm saying here. Some marriages should end. Nobody should stay in an abusive environment. There are many reasons two people should not be married. The fact that your S/O is transgendered in any form is enough for a lot of people. Yes all those relationship skills would drastically improve the odds of a marriage surviving this type of turmoil. But even with all those skills well developed it would be easier for a marriage to fail than survive.


Hug
Rita

[heatherdress]

Seems like a lot of judgmental comments in this thread without knowing relevant facts. Some rather arrogant.

[arbon]

It is very obvious to me that even some of the supposedly supportive people on this forum don't believe this, that crossdressing is so innocuous. And you know why they don't believe it - because we don't believe it ourselves, because we can't because society says this isn't innocuous. For whatever reason, being a guy in a dress is a MUCH WORSE failing than compulsive gambling, alcoholism, or even extra-marital affairs. (I know my wife would've much preferred dealing with infidelity. She told me so, quite a number of times.

Paula you came out that you were going to transition to your wife, that you needed to, and you did it rather suddenly. If it had not had that intensity, your intensity about it, do you think your wife would have ended the relationship just on being a crossdresser who needed some private time to dress up on occasion, even if it was alone?

Yes some wifes will leave, many more will stay if there is some compromise and they don't feel like he is always pushing for more, more, more and they feel they can trust him.

Mostly I agree with what Reine and Jennifer said.
And that it is a lot better to be honest then to keep those kinds of secrets in a relationship with someone you love.

[Princess Grandpa]

Clearly, he did not lie . In order for that to happen, his wife would have had to directly ask him if he was a crossdresser, and he would have to reply NO--that would be lying.

A lie of omission is still a lie.

But more to the point there wasn't years of hiding and sneaking going on. We're there problems? Probably I already stated my thoughts there. At times all relationships have trials.

Hug
Rita

[Wildaboutheels]

Everyone here knows that ALL CDers are all alike. ALL suffer guilt and shame. ALL CDers are consumed, compelled and controlled by "it". ALL CDers have either been out in public or WANT to. ALL CDers will at some point at least think about switching teams. ALL CDers will at some point have to traverse the Valley of Pink Fog.

Therefor, ALL CDers must tell their SOs AND all SOs must accept their CDing partner IF they Love them. THE CDers Handbook would never lie. Can't get Divorced over something as silly as clothes, forms, wigs etc.

You obviously had no choice.

There have been members here who stayed just long enough to "gather" the courage to tell. With disastrous results. They disappeared shortly afterward. There have also been GGs here who in their own words didn't have a single clue for years. And others who have come and gone who wish they had never been told.

[PaulaQ]

Paula you came out that you were going to transition to your wife, that you needed to, and you did it rather suddenly. If it had not had that intensity, your intensity about it, do you think your wife would have ended the relationship just on being a crossdresser who needed some private time to dress up on occasion, even if it was alone?

Yes, I believe she'd have ended it regardless. She's told me this any number of times. When I came out to her, I wasn't sure that I'd transition. She was. I didn't know what exactly was going on with me - I just knew I was skating on thin, thin ice emotionally. I couldn't, in good conscience, not tell her.

Seeing me present as female blew the face off our marriage with a shotgun at point blank range. She can't physically bear to touch me presenting as a female, and even when I hid it from her, which I did for quite some time, (she asked to see me), she thought about it every minute of every day. ANY remark I made such as "you look nice today hon", she felt was laced with subtext like (I WANNA WEAR THAT!). That wasn't even really true - "you look nice today" is about as innocuous of a comment as I can think of, especially when, you know, she looks nice.

My wife likes manly men. She likes John Wayne. She wants a cowboy. She likes hairy chested macho guys. She wants someone who'll tell her she's wrong, slap her, then kiss her. I can't count the number of times she's told me this.

Why some people here have a hard time believing this, I dunno.

[avant1465]

I am in a relationship with a woman who not only accepts the C/D-ing me.... but encourages it (me).... How great is that?

My past experiences have been that, if a woman doesn't feel comfortable with "unconventional" sex/gender people and lives, then she also isn't someone with whom I have sufficient compatibility to undertake a "relationship." ..... By this, I mean that she is homophobic... even disdainful of any except the most strait-laced, parochial behaviour and life (style)...

We are lucky... those of us who have an accepting partner... and our C/D-ing can be open and enjoyed together.....

[Rogina B]

I think that the problem is that you were not honest with her before marrying her. You can't say that honesty is the problem when you finally share something after years or lying. It's the years of lying that caused the problem. You robber her of her right to make an informed decision about one of the most important decisions she will ever make. The reality of most poster's history [as witnessed on this forum] is that at the age they got married,their T mindset was WAY on the back burner as there were "more important things going on in their lives" at that time. So,when "T mindset" rears her pretty head later on in the marriage and life,it is all too easy for the GG partner to say that she should have been told "at time of proposal". Wonderful when it happens that way but it usually doesn't. Please never forget the "fear of rejection",suppression,and the possible "fear of being outed" to their friends by the rejecting bride in a fit of immature "loose lips". So Erin,please take that into consideration. My advice for ML is to attempt to build freedom into her life as she attempts to reconcile with her wife. My opinion,anyway.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Victoria, It's a shame that it had to come to that I feel
sorry for you, When one door closes another one opens.

At just short of 50yrs. married my wife has known sense we got married
it has gone through ok to rejection at different times now it's a DA-DT
kind of thinggie she knows that I dress every evening and tolerates it
she just don't want to see me dressed up.

[Tina B.]

Mysticlady, I'm going to get flamed for this, but I feel it's time someone says it.
Everybody always says the Truth must be maintained at all cost! But it's not there cost, it's the one telling the truth that has to pay, and the hard part is up front when it would do you some good, you don't know the cost of that truth.
Before you told her, you wife was happy in her bubble, shielded from your horrible secret, but you weren't, and because you weren't you where a meanie ( your words, not mine.
So everyone in here will tell you her happiness is everything, it's not, after all just because a guy likes to wear a dress from time to time, who says we are not entitled to be happy too. Do you get a better spot in the after life, if you can say, my life was miserable, but I made those around me happy, I don't think so, I think you have to find it here, or the life you lead was wasted.
I'm sorry your wife took it so hard, and I hope she comes to realizes she had a good life and it need not end, you are still you, but that's on her, at least know, maybe you can start liking yourself more, it takes time, but no matter what happens life goes on, and we need to get the most out of it while we can, because believe me, the older you get the harder it is to keep getting the most out of it.
And then when you get it figured out, you die of old age, so don't wait!

[Lynn Marie]

The attached CDs two edged sword. Telling exposes the devastating fact that you've been cheating with another woman, yourself! Not telling is simply living a lie with the separation that entails. It sure seems that only in very rare cases does telling a SO result in her understanding, and more importantly, accepting the "other women" as a friend and confidant. Neither edge of the sword is painless.

[Amanda22]

So everyone in here will tell you her happiness is everything, it's not, after all just because a guy likes to wear a dress from time to time, who says we are not entitled to be happy too.

I really like that.

[NicoleScott]

To say that CDing is never the cause of divorce is nonsense. Too many stories here say otherwise. We each have to decide whether to tell or not, because we are the only one with all the pertinent information. It's fine to relate your story about revealing your crossdressing with successful outcomes, but not all outcomes are good, and those encouraging honesty usually fail to add that if you come clean your marriage may be over. We can do without the guilt trips.

[Sarah Beth]

I told my wife about my dressing a couple of years into our marriage and it didn't go to well. We almost ended up getting a divorce because try as I might I could not get her to understand. So the years went by and I hid it from her. There were a couple of times during that time that I had jobs that led me to be away from home for days at a time. I dressed during those time.

It was during one of those times that I forgot to separate out all my fem things from my male things and when she went to do the laundry she found some things. I had to confess that they were mind and was somewhat surprised when she didn't get all bent out of shape about it. The next day she asked me about what I felt when I dressed, and biggest thing she asked was did I love her when I was "that way". I explained it all to her as best as I could and the subject was dropped. The about a month later she came back from shopping and gave me a bra/pany set. She then altered the bra so it would fit me better in the cups.

Since that time we have shared some of what I do and she has been somewhat supportive. She still doesn't understand completely but she has accepted what I do.

So I guess being honest is he best but its hard to be honest about being a cross dresser. I'm just thankful she came to accept it because I always hated hiding that from her.

[MysticLady]

My past experiences have been that, if a woman doesn't feel comfortable with "unconventional" sex/gender people and lives, then she also isn't someone with whom I have sufficient compatibility to undertake a "relationship." ..... By this, I mean that she is homophobic... even disdainful of any except the most strait-laced, parochial behaviour and life (style)...

We are lucky... those of us who have an accepting partner... and our C/D-ing can be open and enjoyed together.....

BINGO, she is homophobic, she will not accept this because she feels I'll eventually accept the homosexual behavior and lust after it. She knows I'm intense, When I want something, I pursue it. She mentioned too me once, if this were too ever come out, she would pack up the kiddo's and high tail it out of town. She's adamant on this and she's not afraid to say it. Problem I have, she doesn't TRUST me. I trust her though I don't get the same satisfaction from her. This is what really pisses me off about her................that she doesn't trust me as a man in being able to handle this. She believes I'm eventually going to go off the deep end:doh:. BTW...........she mentioned that she will not be married to a woman no matter what. I just love my wife, she's funny sometimes.:straightface:

[ReineD]

Mystic and Paula: the two of you have no clue what your wives were telling you in the beginning and now it's too late. YOU have escalated this into your current, seemingly impossible situations by your refusals to see where your wives were coming from, by your inabilities to address their fears and concerns, and not your wives.

Please stop blaming them and saying they are homophobic. They would have come around had you had better relationship skills, had your behaviors not been so drastic initially, in short had you handled the whole thing with respect for the surprise element of all of this on your wives like the CDers who DO have wives who accept eventually.

Please read Sarah Beth's post #54. Why was his wife OK with it the second time around? Because she had ample time, from the first time, to get used to the idea ... even though I do not advise going underground for some years as the best way to handle this.

Sorry to be so harsh but it has to be said, for the benefit of the CDers seeing this who are not at your points yet. You are both so mired in your own sides of your situations that you cannot see the proverbial forest for the trees. The only possible chance there is to remedy your situations (if there is any chance at all) is if you each tell your wives that you love them and want to stay with them, and you are willing to shelve the cross-gender expression temporarily (make sure you tell them the shelving is temporary) while you both work on rebuiding relationship skills in your marriage. This will take time.

If neither of you wants to do this in favor of continuing to have your immediate freedoms, then it is your choices. But stop placing all the blame on your wives. Your refusals to take responsibility for your own parts in this speaks to your inabilities to see their sides to the point where your situations have escalated to the point they are now.

[MysticLady]

Reine, I don't have that kind of time on this rock. I'm not blaming her for anything. I actually blame myself for this and I have told her and my kiddo's(not the CD part). Too me, it's just life full blown. If I decide to wait on her, she'll never let me out of the cage and just keep feeding me panties. Not going too happen. I told her that I wanted too go out and experience this and she just about wiggo'ed out completely. Do you actually think that I was going to last happy w/ that kind of tolerance? Trust me, I told her. But, I'm sure she had read countless stories about how a spouse gets ****ed in the end. She is not going there.............period.

[Beverley Sims]

It is a problem that all situations are different.
I feel honesty is the best way but it does need to tested to see how acceptance will go.
If there is an opposition you need to play it by ear and live separate lives in the process.

[ReineD]

Reine, I don't have that kind of time on this rock.

Fair enough. My approach would take time, likely a few years, and it is your choice to not want to take it. You know what's best for you, as long as you do not place all the blame on your wife.

As to just allowing panties in the beginning, this was a pretty good start IMO. As least your wife had overcome the biggest hurdle and she was acknowledging your need for cross-gender expression. It's not uncommon to start small and then build up in fact, it's human nature. It's a mistake to take a wife's current boundaries and assume they will never change. Patience is key in a situation like this.

[Lorileah]

Clearly, he did not lie . keeping a secret that may effect the other partner is a lie. Keeping information that will effect the relationship in any manner intentionally is a lie. Saying to yourself it isn't important is first saying you know more than your partner about how things should be and second not trusting your partner to make up their own minds. That isn't how love works in my opinion. That is how one partner controls the other partner.
Non disclosure would be better, but then there are many circumstances in the world that use non disclosure to protect people. Your government does it every day, and it has been said the government lies when these things come out right?
and on some days, they LIE through their teeth. Monitoring your phone calls, reading your mail, monitoring your travel, the shape of the economic world. I don't see anyone running to give up their citizenship over these lies that effect all of us in direct ways that take away of liberties. really bad analogy. If you left the country where would you go? You cannot survive without the government (and please don't get all survivalist on me 99% here would not last a week)
Me thinks the "lying aspect" is a bit over used as a reason for drastic behaviour. If she had discovered her husband was a hitman for the CIA, maybe I could understand, but crossdressing is so innocuous--generally. Love how people compare crossdressing and keeping it from your spouse by comparing it to something illegal, immoral or dangerous.


It would, in fact, be interesting to know what things people "hide" from the spouses that would result in divorce. What in fact is a deal breaker? really good point. Some people would say that your snoring is a deal breaker...but they are looking for an "out". I think in most cases the cross dressing is the "out" they want. It is an easy way to say they no longer want to be with you...but the real reason is they are bored with the relationship, or they are tired of other aspects of your behavior or they have another thing going they think will be better. You are absolutely correct that there are a lot of other things that should be just as bad to the relationship. I think too many go into relationships with fairytale expectations and the ones who keep the lines of communication open are the ones who last. I know that many men decide the relationship isn't worth it when the kids come along and they are no longer number one on the hit parade.


BINGO, she is homophobic, she will not accept this because she feels I'll eventually accept the homosexual behavior and lust after it. seems this would be a good thing to discuss then. But maybe you aren't sure?
Problem I have, she doesn't TRUST me. Don't get mad but do you blame her? She thought you were one thing, you kept the other part a secret (Ok just three months, so I don't think it was that bad). She had a world built in her mind. Granted she probably over did this. We all do.
I trust her though I don't get the same satisfaction from her. This is what really pisses me off about her................that she doesn't trust me as a man in being able to handle this. If you think the relationship is worth saving, quit being pissed off and become more understanding and communicative. Be the bigger person. It may not work if she decides to be immature about it but it is worth a try.
She believes I'm eventually going to go off the deep end:doh: if you can honestly say you won't, tell her that.
BTW...........she mentioned that she will not be married to a woman no matter what. I just love my wife, she's funny sometimes.:straightface: Here is where communication is key. You (we) have to fight what they are taught by the slanted media. You have stereotypes to face down. You are not a bad person, you are not a pervert and you are not a transsexual. Those are what the public knows about us. The fact that 90% of the CD community are straight married men who hold good jobs, take their kids to soccer and barbeque on weekends never makes the media. So if you don't know the facts how can yo make decision? It won't be easy to do this, you have an uphill battle. It will take time and patience.

I have a fairytale in my mind. I now it isn't true. Love conquers all. I still believe, even though I have been proven wrong a lot recently, that when you love someone you do all you can to be with that person. You accept the good and the bad, the light and the dark. It is a two way street though. You both need to WANT it. But there are limits to that even. You need to please yourself. Being miserable to keep others happy wears on you. (been there). Sounds like you want to have your relationship work out. Breathe deep, take time, keep calm. If she wants the same, you will work through this.

[Cindi Johnson]

Honesty and "sharing" tend to be overrated. Most gg's don't want a tg spouse, so in most cases honesty will, at best, lead to a DODT arrangement, or, at worst, to divorce. But then, as many have noted, not being honest has consequences also. Face it, there is no perfect solution to our dilemma. Never will be.

Cindi


in this world
we walk on the roof of hell
gazing at the flowers

[Debra Russell]

I'm sorry your wife took it so hard, and I hope she comes to realizes she had a good life and it need not end, you are still you, but that's on her, at least know, maybe you can start liking yourself more, it takes time, but no matter what happens life goes on, !

I know this happens -personal expierence - and time, in perspective may bring her to realizing you are still her prince charming - hang in there and keep us posted...........................Debra

[heatherdress]

I believe honesty and effective communications are necessary elements of successful relationships. That said, I find myself negatively reacting to the preaching, generalizations, speculation and judgmental comments that appear in this tread:

“Keeping CDing secret is like cheating”
“your cork would pop anyway”
“you pretend to be happy”
“your wife lives a life that is a lie”
“you are not honest with yourself”
“crossdressing nor telling her caused your separation”
“there were many other straws”
“not telling her was a betrayal”
“not honest before marriage”
“eventually it would have come out”
“living a lie”
“crossdressing not a reason for divorce”
“these very people delude themselves into thinking they have healthy relationships”
“ALL CDers are all alike. ALL suffer guilt and shame. ALL CDers are consumed, compelled and controlled by "it". ALL CDers have either been out in public or WANT to”

I do not believe we know this MysticLady, his wife and their relationship well enough to substantiate the comments above. We do not know the facts. There are people with rigid beliefs, personality limitations or disorders, illnesses, poor communications skills, PTSD, injuries, etc., who are in relationships which work and maybe don't or can't have ideal communications skills. Sometimes a single incident or event can disrupt or end that relationship. Many of us do not disclose all our fears, failures, worries, thoughts, actions to our spouses and SOs. We are just human and try to do the best we can.

I am not suggesting that MysticLady’s spouse or relationship was flawed, but maybe they were doing the best they could - and it worked. Maybe MysticLady knew his wife, loved her, understood her better than any of us, kept his CDing secret - and it worked.

I wonder if MysticLady is also second-guessing her honesty (the simple disclosure) which started this thread?

[PaulaQ]

keeping a secret that may effect the other partner is a lie. Keeping information that will effect the relationship in any manner intentionally is a lie.

So how do you know that something you omit telling your partner will affect the relationship? If you don't tell something, and it doesn't affect the relationship, is it not a lie then? So you have to be precognitive to know what to disclose, and what can safely be kept to yourself? How fair is that?

Because hey, we've all met tons of CDs before right? So we all have a good idea of the right way to handle this stuff, because almost everyone reads this forum before they enter into a relationship, right?

And it's not like society gives us a good reason to even hide this, right?

I think some of the most unproductive crap I see posted on this forum is the near continuous application of 20/20 hindsight. "You should have KNOWN, and you SHOULD HAVE told her first!!!!!!!!!!!" Well that's just great - most of us didn't. Unless you have a hot tub time machine in your back yard, what in the HELL good does saying this actually do for someone, other than to make them feel guilty? I think it is just about the most heartless stuff I read on this forum.

I'm really disappointed in you Lori. :( At least you didn't originate this crap, you are just following the party line. You should know better, and you should be ashamed of yourself. How long did it take you to come out to everyone?

[Ressie]

I think one needs to know their partner well enough to know if telling the truth is (or not) the best way to go. And the truth should be told before getting married IMHO. So get to know the person you're dating before getting too serious.

OTOH, if you've been married for years and you have no idea where your wife stands on crossdressing you better find out before getting it off your chest. Yes, getting it off your chest is having your own interest at heart, not hers. I've told the truth up front in my last two relationships and it didn't stop either relationship from continuing. But, maybe neither spouse was being completely honest with me. Maybe they thought - well he's good in most aspects, and maybe I can accept this.

Complete honestly only works if it's from both. And both also have to be honest with themselves. There are always conditions in relationships IMO. Love is a decision.

[Lorileah]

I do not believe we know this MysticLady, his wife and their relationship well enough to substantiate the comments above. Except she asked for comments and opinions. So they were given
We do not know the facts. we know at least Victoria's side of the story...which is enough to allow comments


I am not suggesting that MysticLady’s spouse or relationship was flawed, but maybe they were doing the best they could - and it worked. Maybe MysticLady knew his (edit HER...Victoria is a her as long as she presents as a her here) wife, loved her, understood her better than any of us, kept his (her)CDing secret - and it worked.

It worked because there wasn't the whole story. It was built on not having the complete information package.

[Marleena]

Please read this information. It is compiled by therapists.

http://wiki.susans.org/index.php/Whether_or_not_to_tell_your_wife

[Lorileah]

So how do you know that something you omit telling your partner will affect the relationship? If you don't tell something, and it doesn't affect the relationship, is it not a lie then? So you have to be precognitive to know what to disclose, and what can safely be kept to yourself? How fair is that? Really? Sort of the old "ignorance of the law is no excuse" thing don't you think? Honestly we ALL know that Cross Dressing will in some way effect a relationship. That is why we don't come out and tell on the first date right?




And it's not like society gives us a good reason to even hide this, right?] and that reason would be??? You blame society and yet you won't work to correct the misconception. In fact you hide because of it.


I think some of the most unproductive crap I see posted on this forum is the near continuous application of 20/20 hindsight. Otherwise known as experience. Most of us have travelled the path before and we have insight that may be helpful.

I'm really disappointed in you Lori. :( At least you didn't originate this crap, you are just following the party line. You should know better, and you should be ashamed of yourself. How long did it take you to come out to everyone?
I did originate the party line or was pretty damn close to being there when it was drafted. I have played this game a long time. Most here never look at the side of the SO. They only see how THEY are effected. They don't see that the SO has put time and effort into building a life, a life that is built on sand. That one small grain shift could collapse the whole dream. OK You asked. In my marriage...it was about two years but to be honest I didn't dress in that time. I asked my wife if I could have a pair of shoes (Candies...I still have them) and she said I could if would wear them. Easy enough, could have killed the relationship but no kids no house nothing we had built yet. (1980 or so and we weren't married yet). My GF...when she said she was coming from CA to CO to see me I showed her my photos...so before she even MET me. It was important to me to have her understand who I was. So I have the perspective that telling early works a lot better than telling after you have "equity" in a relationship. You also know MY side of keeping stuff from your SO because of what I found out after my GF died. I thought she had total trust in me as I had total trust in her. Evidently not and it hurt WORSE than if the truth was told early on (which would not have hurt at all). But by my finding out later it made me look really stupid to a lot of people. See it isn't the fact that makes it bad, it is how you make your SO look or feel. It shows that you care MORE about your feelings than theirs. Maybe I am wired different but when I love someone I care more about them than I do about me...I would truly give up my life for them.

[PaulaQ]

Really? Sort of the old "ignorance of the law is no excuse" thing don't you think? Honestly we ALL know that Cross Dressing will in some way effect a relationship. That is why we don't come out and tell on the first date right?

and that reason would be??? You blame society and yet you won't work to correct the misconception. In fact you hide because of it.

I'm completely out. I'll be moving out ASAP because my wife can't stand that I present female. I didn't cross dress at the time I started my relationship. I hadn't for years. I had some confusing and painful episodes when I was a kid. I did a little bit in my prior marriage, but not much, and she knew about it. I went to therapists to try to sort it out - they were ZERO help. I didn't understand what was going on with me. I told my wife 2 months after I finally understood this about myself. Sadly, this was after we'd been together 20 years.

And HELL YES I blame society for hiding this. My violent alcoholic father brooked NO SISSIES. My dear old Dad was the kind of guy who'd go out to gay bars, jacked up on pills, and beat the ever loving hell out the young men there, knowing that the Dallas Police would absolutely turn a blind eye to this. (My Dad was a bad man, he did crap like this all the time.) I got tormented about this stuff in school, and lost friends over it. So HELL YEAH, I think a learned survival response is a TOTALLY sane and acceptable reason to hide something. *I* didn't want to deal with this, much less understand it about myself, or even DO IT because I had many painful first hand experiences where people weren't accepting. I am not unique in this. Why is this hard for you to understand?


Otherwise known as experience. Most of us have travelled the path before and we have insight that may be helpful.

Again, what is the purpose of telling someone AFTER THE FACT "well, you shouldn't a done that, now should you?" How does this help them? You didn't answer my question, because you KNOW it doesn't help them. It maybe helps others - at their expense as a matter of fact.


I did originate the party line or was pretty damn close to being there when it was drafted. I have played this game a long time. Most here never look at the side of the SO. They only see how THEY are effected. They don't see that the SO has put time and effort into building a life, a life that is built on sand. That one small grain shift could collapse the whole dream.

So someone who doesn't confess a highly stigmatized and (they feel) highly shameful personal secret, hoping against hope to NEVER do it again, is the same type of liar as the philandering jerk who had affairs with others before marrying my sister, and during their entire 20 years of marriage? Really? Or is this something different?

And who guarantees the SO's any thing? Why do they have exclusive rights to their dreams? Crap happens in life all the time we can't control. Stock market crashes destroyed retirement dreams for many. Regular old "irreconcilable differences" divorces wreck dreams. Lay offs and firings wreck dreams. Sickness and death wreck dreams. This idea that the SO is somehow entitled to their dream life is a bunch of malarky - nobody can guarantee you jack SHIT in this life. NOBODY.

You know what? If you are an active CD at the time you are dating your spouse, and it is a significant part of your life, I'll agree with you that you really ought to tell. But it doesn't always happen that way - AND YOU KNOW THIS LORI! For shame!

And if you don't tell? Telling the CD "well, it's all your fault, you should'a told", or "your marriage must've sucked anyway, because your wife wouldn't react so badly if it were any good" or "well, if the two of you had actual communication skills, this could be resolved" - or any of the other absolute malarky some of you spout - you think this is HELPFUL? How in the hell is it supposed to be helpful? WHAT should someone who's telling their spouse, and it goes badly, DO with this advice?

I'm not trying to rationalize deliberate deception, but you should well know that there is often an enormous core of self-denial, shame, and guilt that makes many hide this stuff? Would it be better if we could all be honest with ourselves, and painfully honest with someone we're starting a relationship with? Sure. But let's be real - there are many SO's who aren't honest either. So why are we so much worse? Examples:
"Hi! I'm a crazy religious fanatic, and while I present as just a pleasant member of your church, if you diverge from my narrowminded biblical view - which will become quite a lot narrower in the future, I'll throw your ass out!"
- or -
"Hi! I may present as a modern liberated woman, but I wanna marry a John Wayne type tough guy, and have him care for me. He needs to be MACHO, and exactly match old-school male gender roles"

Because I guarantee-damn-tee you that my wife lied her ass off about being a modern, progressive, liberated, independent woman. I don't blame her for this - it's what she wanted to believe.

So I'll ask you, one last time, what purpose, for the poster, does 20/20 hindsight serve? How does this help them? Barring the use of a time-machine, what are you doing but trying to make them feel like shit, and drive them away?

I'll say it again, I'm really ashamed of you Lori.


In my marriage...it was about two years but to be honest I didn't dress in that time.

Oh, so you are a liar anyway? Oh wait, I guess it applies to you, but not to anyone else - "Do as I say, not as I do?" I did not expect hypocrisy from you, of all people. I'm shocked. I am deeply, deeply, deeply disappointed and saddened that you feel this way, Lori.

[Wildaboutheels]

I continue to be completely befuddled by this topic. EVERY single time it comes up. Maybe I am misinterpreting everyone that is in the "it's Lying camp"/side of the fence.

Do YOU folks think that ALL CDers need to tell. Or is it supposed to simply be "understood" [but almost never mentioned] that only "serious" CDers need to tell their SOs?

And just who might I ask is willing to define when and what that point is? That very line of thought assumes that ALL GGs will have the same attitude towards it. And what their comfort levels are.

Any of you Dinos ever consider that someone new to the Forum MIGHT get the impression that is is IMPERATIVE that they tell their SO at their earliest convenience and the sooner the better?

[Amanda22]

damn i hate this thread. i know, i chose to look :(

[NicoleScott]

This thread proves once again but in a different way that some people think there is only one way to CD, their way, and their way is "you must tell". How arrogant of them to think that what worked for them will work for all.

[arbon]

And if you don't tell? Telling the CD "well, it's all your fault, you should'a told", or "your marriage must've sucked anyway, because your wife wouldn't react so badly if it were any good" or "well, if the two of you had actual communication skills, this could be resolved" - or any of the other absolute malarky some of you spout - you think this is HELPFUL? How in the hell is it supposed to be helpful? WHAT should someone who's telling their spouse, and it goes badly, DO with this advice?

.


At least they would have been honest and given her the opportunity to decide for herself.

Paula, your awfully angry. People can have different opinions you don't have to rip them apart for it.

[Princess Grandpa]

damn i hate this thread. i know, i chose to look :(

I'm right there with you. I keep telling myself I can no longer stand to read this *tries to think of the right adjective* **realizes obscenity isn't allowed**

Yet somehow I continue to open it again and again.

[PaulaQ]

At least they would have been honest and given her the opportunity to decide for herself.

Sometimes people don't know, or aren't honest with themselves. I'm not saying that's right - but it's the case. Spouses are often not honest about fairly critical things either. Is that right? No.

BTW, if I were "just" a CD, my wife made it very clear to me, after I disclosed my situation to her, that she'd have preferred I never told her.

But what I find disagreeable is:
1. Expecting perfect honesty - to the point that it requires the ability to foretell the future. Nobody can do this. I'm not trying to rationalize this - but geeze, have a heart.
2. Hypocrisy - there are lots of people chiming in on this thread who haven't been honest.
3. Intellectual dishonesty - there are a number of people on this thread who ought to know better than this - but don't, because it doesn't fit their preconceived notion, pet theory, or what have you. Even when faced with contradictory evidence "lalalala I don't hear it!!!!"
4. The general heartlessness and complete lack of sympathy from a support group. What in the hell is WRONG with some of you people? Or is this really a support group for GG's, and the point is just to keep us TG people in line?


Paula, your awfully angry. People can have different opinions you don't have to rip them apart for it.

Some of the people here should know better, and are spouting absolute hogwash. They are prominent posters, and they deserve to be rebuked. What they are saying is outrageous. And it's not particularly helpful.

Tough talk - "yeah, your situation sucks. If you'd done something different, maybe it'd be better. Probably not. Here's some stuff you can try, honestly, it probably won't work either, but try. Really sorry" would help. Most of what is going on in this thread isn't aimed at the OP at all - but at others who are reading and on the fence about coming out.

That pisses me off.

[Lorileah]

This thread proves once again but in a different way that some people think there is only one way to CD, their way, and their way is "you must tell". How arrogant of them to think that what worked for them will work for all.
You know that isn't the point here. The point is that there are other people in your life which your CDing can impact. You don't see that your SO deserves all the information available? When or how you dress, if or if you don't go out...that is small matter. But the person you sleep with at night should have the ability to know what they are getting into.


Do YOU folks think that ALL CDers need to tell. Or is it supposed to simply be "understood" [but almost never mentioned] that only "serious" CDers need to tell their SOs? If it will impact the life of the person you have pledged your life to YES


Any of you Dinos ever consider that someone new to the Forum MIGHT get the impression that is is IMPERATIVE that they tell their SO at their earliest convenience and the sooner the better? I think that has been said over and over again...isn't that what I said? That telling early is better because you retain some trust and you allow the person to make their own decision before they are deeply into equity in the relationship. You basically waste years of their lives because you feel you need to control the situation.


At least they would have been honest and given her the opportunity to decide for herself.

Paula, your awfully angry. People can have different opinions you don't have to rip them apart for it.

Paula is in a bad place right now. I know this and I take no offense. She can be angry with me, that is OK. I have been here long enough to know about that.

Yes Paula I lied. I even lashed out when I first joined for that reason at someone here (I wonder if she remembers). But I didn't let it build for years. And I learned. That is what we do here right? and the thread is for those who are new and debating what they should do also. Yes, if a few understand how they are effecting their SOs life or MAY effect that life by keeping it a secret then we have served a purpose. The OP was posting a learning lesson. Yes she had a bad result (so far but maybe not). She even did the "right" thing when after three months she realized this wasn't going away. My main point here is that you need to realize it isn't just YOUR life you are effecting here. It is someone you should be closer to than anyone else's life too. That they need information to build that life and not lack of or false information.



4. The general heartlessness and complete lack of sympathy from a support group. What in the hell is WRONG with some of you people? Or is this really a support group for GG's, and the point is just to keep us TG people in line?

OY vey Paula really? So we need to take sides for the crossdressers. Yes, I am an advocate for the GGs because I see where they are coming from. You want loyalty, buy a dog. You want one side of the story, then you don't need to read what I post because I have seen both sides. Keep TGs in line? There have been both sides given here. You get the information, you use it accordingly...sort of my point right?

[PaulaQ]

Paula is in a bad place right now. I know this and I take no offense. She can be angry with me, that is OK. I have been here long enough to know about that.

Thanks. Keep your condescension to yourself, thank you very much. I've been in worse places than I'm in now. Hey, at least with the stuff with my wife, I know *exactly* how this is going to go, because despite my best efforts not to repeat my fistr relationship, that's EXACTLY what I've done. (Nobody ever actually called me on this.)


Yes Paula I lied. I even lashed out when I first joined for that reason at someone here (I wonder if she remembers). But I didn't let it build for years.

You just said that you let it build for 2 years. But not to parse your words - I didn't lie. I have talked to several professionals, and more importantly my wife, and NONE of them believe I lied to her. Lying to someone else because you are lying to yourself isn't exactly the same thing as a lie. You are acting on what you believe to be true, or at least desperately want to be true. This is simply not a lie.


And I learned. That is what we do here right? and the thread is for those who are new and debating what they should do also.

Right, so throw mystic under the bus then to make a point. Cool.


She even did the "right" thing when after three months she realized this wasn't going away. My main point here is that you need to realize it isn't just YOUR life you are effecting here. It is someone you should be closer to than anyone else's life too. That they need information to build that life and not lack of or false information.

So she did the right thing, and is now facing terrible, and kinda pointless, consequences for it. That seem like how honesty should go TO YOU, Lori? Maybe I'm just dishonest, but if someone is going to treat me badly for telling them something about myself that doesn't actually harm them, except in their own mind, that doesn't give much incentive to be truthful now does it?


OY vey Paula really? So we need to take sides for the crossdressers.

See site name.

All I know is that I've been brutally honest in my postings, and I've gotten an absolute rash of shit as a "thank you" for it. I've gotten some support too, and met nice people.

Yes, for god sake, if you are starting a new relationship, and you are an active CD, then for god's sake, tell her before you really foul up your life. If you didn't do that, for whatever reason, could we get a little sympathy here? Apparently not.

BTW, there is one other, not very nice fact, that most of you seem to ignore. There are some people who WANT you to lie to them, and in fact, if you don't, your relationship will not last very long. A CD'er who's married to someone like that would be nuts to tell.

[Eryn]

I didn't actively crossdress before I discussed it with my wife. I experimented a bit with clothes and makeup and felt properly guilty and shameful for it. I felt envious of my wife and frustrated that she wasn't interested in clothes and things that I desperately wanted to wear. I felt trapped by a desire that I couldn't express without being viewed (in my way of thinking then) as a pervert

Finally it became too much to keep inside. We talked about it a lot and I was very lucky. She was tolerant of my feelings and helped me to explore them more fully. She was willing to keep an open mind and learn about TGism as I learned about it. I'm not the "man she married" but then again no man stays the same for 20 years. Our relationship is closer and better now than it every has been.

It pains me when I see marriages and relationships destroyed. It isn't so much about TGism as it is that the marriages are built upon shaky foundations that cannot withstand minor upheavals. "For Better or for Worse" has become "Until Something Happens That I Don't Like" or even "Until Something Better Comes Along." The marriage is the point at which honesty is imperative and it is sadly lacking in over half of current marriages.

[kimdl93]

I do not think you are being honest with yourself. "Cross dressing" nor telling her, caused your separation nor will it be the cause of a divorce. It can be a last straw but that means there were many other straws.

I agree with this point...and can relate it directly to the dissolution of my first marriage. My wife new and was accepting. But I wasn't. I carried a lot of baggage until I came to grips with being TG. Until that point I was needlessly filled with self loathing and well, ornery...and damaged our marriage irreparably.

My other point is that if you had not come out, you still ran the risk of accidental discovery with the same or worse possible outcomes.

[PaulaQ]

I didn't actively crossdress before I discussed it with my wife. I experimented a bit with clothes and makeup and felt properly guilty and shameful for it. I felt envious of my wife and frustrated that she wasn't interested in clothes and things that I desperately wanted to wear. I felt trapped by a desire that I couldn't express without being viewed (in my way of thinking then) as a pervert

So you don't feel that you lied? Or do you feel like a liar? Just asking where you stand on that question. It seems to be a burning one in this thread.


We talked about it a lot and I was very lucky.

Thank you Eryn, you are one of the first actually honest people in this thread. Yep, you got lucky. I'm genuinely happy for you.


It isn't so much about TGism as it is that the marriages are built upon shaky foundations that cannot withstand minor upheavals.

I disagree. My marriage had withstood many, many serious trials. NOBODY thought ANYTHING could separate us. Indeed, that's part of why this is so hard - because if we hated each other, breaking up would be easy-peasy. (I speak from experience.) TGism (in my case I'm TS), was too much. But ultimately, presenting as female to my wife killed our marriage as fast as I expected it would. I'd hoped it would go better - I didn't expect it would stay the same, but I'd hoped it would go at least a little better than it has between us. But it didn't.


"For Better or for Worse" has become "Until Something Happens That I Don't Like" or even "Until Something Better Comes Along." The marriage is the point at which honesty is imperative and it is sadly lacking in over half of current marriages.

You left out the one that my wife suffers from "I'm entitled to the future I've envisioned. I've got a plan, I've got control, and I will not tolerate anything that changes that future." My wife suffers from a massive sense of entitlement. (She'll freely admit this.)

1. We are supposed to know our marriage has a good foundation how? (Our opinion doesn't count, but the opinion of heavy forum posters does?)
2. OK, so maybe the foundation sucked. Pointing this out now does what exactly?

I can understand this point of view for a marriage that was having a LOT of obvious troubles. But for one that was going pretty smooth? The idea just makes NO sense.

[MysticLady]

Hello All

I'm very surprised at the responses rec'd. I truly appreciate all who answered this question. I certainly did not intend for a battle of wits. But I understand Paula's frustration regarding this. She and I share the same thing regarding our wives. I gave my wife everything including myself for 23 years. She has stood by me through think and thin and I have done the same for her. I have discuss this thoroughly with her. We have been back and forth and not progressing forward. We're stuck. As I've stated, I love my wife but, I will not change my mind on this. She will learn to tolerate it if she truly loves me. I need to know if her love is stronger than her pride and fears regarding me. If not, then why would I waste my time with her. This is a cross fork at our marriage. I have chosen a path to go and have started down that path and she has decided to let go of my hand and just stand there. I tell her too trust me but, she won't. Please don't take this as I'm slamming my wife. Unlike other things, she has decided to stop and make a decision to follow me or not. I guess that is the part that angers and hurts, that she does not trust me to continue to hold my hand and move forward. She appears to be scared of what lies ahead.
Anyway, I believe that being honest is the way too go, even if it causes a conflict. Keeping a secret from a spouse is a burden that's very heavy. I understand the reason some of us keep this to ourselves and very private. My heart goes out to those because I know that is a very heavy load and weight on the heart. I'm in no position to tell them otherwise.
Thank you All for joining in on the Discussion.

[Stephanie47]

Sometimes a person views 'something' to be so repulsive that it transcends everything. A person may be a model husband, father, member of the community and that one thing will be a deal breaker.


I do not think you are being honest with yourself. "Cross dressing" nor telling her, caused your separation nor will it be the cause of a divorce. It can be a last straw but that means there were many other straws.

It may be the person succumbs to societal pressure or norms and does not evaluate the person's attributes and shortcomings.

The consensus of opinion may be it's best to tell the truth up front before the relationship fully develops. Of course, then the recipient of the "bad" news has not really had time to get to know the other. Judgement made on societal norms, expectations and bias??? Then, we have seen numerous times on this forum initial acceptance turning into scorn for the spouse.

[Lorileah]

So we need to take sides for the crossdressers.
See site name.



Just one thing before I let this thread go. The site has more to it than just crossdressers...read the whole title. The GGs here are often the ones who don't get support or understanding. Yet they are an integral part of the site. More do not join because we become very myopic and let's face it we are self centered.

[Tina B.]

I wasn't coming back in here to comment again, but I just can't keep quiet any longer.
Let's all keep in mind, in America we're I think the number one nation in Divorce, isn't it great to be number one!
They say 50 % of us have done it, some, more than once. the reason stem from Money, drugs, religion, and sex, it also includes bad in laws that can't mind there own business, and who knows how many other reasons, probably as many reason as we claim for cross dressing. Then why wouldn't cross dressing be a deal breaker in some relationships, no matter what you say or do, for some it offends, there religion, there since of entitlement (where's my prince charming) or whatever, they just can't get pass a guy that just doesn't want to act like a guy.
Sure tell up front always sounds good, but many of us get in to a relationship, and during that time, the desire to dress is replaced with Romantic love, and it feels like a great cure, and you can go on to live a "normal life" give up the hiding and guilt, and it feels good. But somewhere along the line, everyday life sets in, work, chores, and things become mundane, or at lest routine, and then something happens, stress maybe, insecurity, what ever your trigger is, and that old urge you thought you had mastered comes back, and you find it is the master, and you must submit or the depression, angst, call it what you will, but life turns sour, you have to dress, or you will climb the walls, so what's a person to do.
Go into hiding, and dress when you can, tell her and take your chances, or walk away for you own sanity. Oh I know, what about the wife, what about the kids, sure it's hard, but if she can't stand you, staying helps no one, kids raised in a bad marriage are no better off than single parent kids, maybe not as well off. Wife may put up with you for the kids, but she isn't happy, and you give up any chance of finding your own happiness, so whose life is improved by staying with a wife that can't accept you as a whole person.
Sure you need to give her time, to digest the information, but if there is no give, after a few weeks or months, no effort to understand, or compromise, how long do you put you life on hold.
If a wife really cares about saving the marriage, she must at the least admit, that her feeling aren't the only ones involved you have feeling two, and they are just as valid as her feelings.
Always keep in mind, it takes two to make a marriage, but it also takes two to tear one apart, you can't do it alone. You kept a secret, bad on you, she can't get over it and move on after you have said I'm sorry I should have told you sooner, then bad on her, it's a two way street, so don't beat yourself up, and don't let others get to you, in the end, you where trying to be honest with her, and she couldn't handle it, I'm sorry, it happens, way to often, but then, that is the prove we still have a long way to go as a movement, maybe someday, when you tell someone they will say, "so, what's your point" but until we get there, rejection is part of our life, so it's always been with things people can't understand, and in all honesty, we are hard to understand, we have trouble trying to explain why to ourselves.

[MysticLady]

Sometimes, I guess, some can't or choose not to handle the truth. The Truth, is very difficult at times and some of us just can't deal with it. I wonder if the Truth of having an affair is more "handleable" than this CDing of ours. Hard to evaluate the situation at times. The Future is a massive fear they have, I'm afraid.

I suspect that in some situations, it is better to not share everything in order to protect the loved one. When I met my wife, sharing my past sexual adventures would have probably caused her to decline me because she would fear that I would stray and have affairs. I have never shared that info to my wife because first of all, the respect I have for her, and second of all, I believe that this is something that does not need to be out. I been married for 23 years and I have never cheated on my wife. Yes, there were times, especially when a woman would say that I wasn't man enough to handle an affair. I just wanted to slap that woman.

[Juliea661]

Hi Victoria, I believe you did the right thing in being honest. I hid my off and on CDing during my first marriage of thirty years and I am certain the stress caused me health problems. I told my second wife before we married so as to let her know who the complete person I was in order that she would know what she was getting into. Telling her was in itself so stressful with all the fears of rejection; but those fears were unfounded as my wife has been so supportive. As others have stated, a strong marriage will survive and thrive with this honesty. And weaker relationships that fail will have probably failed regardless.
I think the real lesson to be had here is for those new to CDing and in new relationships; and that is being honest about who you are before getting married or engaged. Regarding my first marriage, I didn't know or CDed before we married...
Hugs and good wishes, Jules

[Eryn]

So you don't feel that you lied? Or do you feel like a liar? Just asking where you stand on that question. It seems to be a burning one in this thread.

It is difficult to lie about a facet of myself that I didn't understand. I did a small amount of "experimenting" with clothes and makeup before we had "the talk" so I suppose that forum "lawyers" could contend that I should have immediately blurted out the story the next time I saw her, but I think that approach is unrealistic. Important discussions deserve careful consideration.


I disagree. My marriage had withstood many, many serious trials. NOBODY thought ANYTHING could separate us. Indeed, that's part of why this is so hard - because if we hated each other, breaking up would be easy-peasy. (I speak from experience.) TGism (in my case I'm TS), was too much. But ultimately, presenting as female to my wife killed our marriage as fast as I expected it would. I'd hoped it would go better - I didn't expect it would stay the same, but I'd hoped it would go at least a little better than it has between us. But it didn't.

Since this discussion is in the CDers section my comments were addressed primarily to that audience.

A TS is asking for a lot more adjustment from their spouse than a CDer would. In my case there will still be a male person around most of the time. In yours the male will not be present. I can see where this could stretch the definition of marriage to the breaking point.

[PaulaQ]

@ Eryn, I agree with your view that you didn't lie. I didn't either. I didn't understand myself either. Also, I agree with you that there's no way most women could stay married to a TS. I never expected that. The breaking point though, wasn't me telling her "I'm TS," I'm going to transition, or starting to transition. (I haven't actually done anything yet!) It was seeing me in women's clothes. She asked - I showed, our relationship ended for all intents and purposes.

[NicoleScott]

The point is that there are other people in your life which your CDing can impact. You don't see that your SO deserves all the information available? When or how you dress, if or if you don't go out...that is small matter. But the person you sleep with at night should have the ability to know what they are getting into.

Those who came clean on their own terms in their chosen time don't think others should have that same option. You don't know me, my wife, her past, my past, our past, what she knows or how she reacts to my crossdressing, and yet you conclude that I should tell my wife everything because she deserves it. We don't mind reading about others' stories or advice until it turns into judgement.

The forum is supposed to be supportive of everyone. There are separate forums for the TS and GG's (Loved Ones). Is it too much to ask for support for MtF crossdressers on the MtF crossdresser forum?

[Princess Grandpa]

The forum is supposed to be supportive of everyone.

I joined these forums for this very reason. I knew emotions could run wild during this time of exploration. Where better than to learn about what's going on? I have met some wonderful ladies who have been most kind and supportive. I have also been insulted and ridiculed. I had a moderator call me names and tell me I'm stupid. I cannot believe how judgmental and arrogant some people are. I thought this is what the moderators were supposed to be watching for, yet the most hurtful things I have seen posted were by moderators.

I say again a community crying for acceptance should first learn to accept each other. How can we expect the public to give us respect and understanding if we can't even offer it to each other?

Hug
Rita

[ReineD]

It is difficult to lie about a facet of myself that I didn't understand.

I don't like the way that the verb "to lie" frames the situation. I agree with you and others that if someone who actively and regularly engages in cross-gender expression does not disclose their behaviors, then it is indeed an outright lie. But, how can someone who doesn't dress or who has dressed in a very limited basis lie through non-disclosure about an activity they do not engage in.

I'm trying to imagine how my SO would have handled it if s/he had been intrigued by the dressing and had had desires, yet had not done so while in our relationship. S/he is an extremely private person and feels (rightly so) that her thoughts, desires, etc are her own as long as they are not translated into action. There certainly is no obligation to share our every thought with our partners, in fact it would be nearly impossible to do this since many of our thoughts are nebulous.

But I wonder if a man's persistent and long-standing desire (or interest even if it ebbs and flows) to cross the line into cross-gender expression falls under the category of ill-defined, non-consistent thoughts. Or, if he isn't a man but is rather a gender non-conforming person, I wonder if the non-disclosure of these interests falls under the category as well. In these cases, is the non-disclosure a lie? I don't believe it is. However, as a partner I would very much have appreciated being kept in the loop. In my opinion, the voluntary sharing of recurring thoughts, interests, and desires is an indication that the relationship is intimate and this is indeed the type of relationship that I wish to be in. I would have felt disappointed and rather sad, had my SO not shared desires and thoughts of this nature to me.

If on the other hand, the mere thought of engaging in cross-gender expression had not even entered my SO's mind until middle age for the first time, then I would have completely understood the non-disclosure. How can we disclose something that we do not know exists? As it is though, my SO did crossdress as an adolescent and I would have been equally sad and disappointed if s/he hadn't shared that with me during the time in our courtship when we were disclosing our pasts. I told her everything about mine, even some horrible experiences that happened during my own childhood and adolescence that did shape a part of who I am now.

[MysticLady]

I just answered another thread with this.

If a woman can love a part of me(child) unconditionally, then why can't she love another part of me(CDing) the same. I don't agree w/ the intimacy logic either. Other than that, what would be reasoning behind that mentality?

[ReineD]

Other than that, what would be reasoning behind that mentality?

It's the birds and the bees, Mystic.

We do live in a world where 95% of the people wish to differentiate themselves from the other gender. This does not mean that we can't have educational, work, and salary equality. But even at school and at work, 95% of the men and women want to remain the gender they were born with, they don't want to look like the other gender, and this is imbedded deeply in their cores. They do this for mating purposes since fundamentally our brains haven't changed for hundreds of thousands years.

It's not surprising that mates who are hetero, get turned off of opposite gender mates who wish to adopt the same gender presentation. It's only in the last 50-100 years or so that medical science has even defined gender non-conformity and transsexualism, and acknowledges intersex conditions and homosexuality. It will take awhile for all of this understanding to reach the mainstream to the point where everyone will agree that the 5% gender and sexuallly non-conforming people are "normal" so to speak. Until then we do have some people who are more open minded than others, but my guess is that the accepting people are still very much in the minority.

It just is the way that it is, Mystic. Your wife might have been brought around had you perhaps been a little patient and had you started out according to her initial boundaries. She would have slowly grown, most GGs do when they don't feel pressured. She would have ascertained for herself with each small step, that you were still her husband.

But now it looks as if you are both in the Chinese finger-grip. The more each of you pulls for his/her side, the tighter the grip becomes and no one is free.

[Lorileah]

The forum is supposed to be supportive of everyone. There are separate forums for the TS and GG's (Loved Ones). Is it too much to ask for support for MtF crossdressers on the MtF crossdresser forum?
OK I was out but I have to address this. This area is the main forum for ALL members, CD, DQ, TS, GQ, AND GG. It is where everyone has access. There are no requirements to be on this area of the board accept to be a member of the forum. (BTW loved ones isn't just for the GGs either it is for all members...it is not available to those who don't join). The private area for the males here is the GM boards. This area is accessible to members and NON-members who will come here to get information...not one sided information.

I do not know how all of a sudden so many here are taking what I said personally. I referred to posts made by certain members so maybe that is where they got it but nowhere that I can remember did I say "so and so...you have to do this personally". I also will not blow smoke to make certain people happy. Support doesn't mean telling you what you want to hear. It is saying things that will make you think outside your current frame of reference, to see things from a different perspective.

[Eryn]

It is difficult to lie about a facet of myself that I didn't understand.

I don't like the way that the verb "to lie" frames the situation.

I phrased the thought badly. The meaning I meant to convey was that it was impossible for me to commit a "lie of omission" concerning an aspect of myself that I didn't know existed at the time. I didn't know I was TG so I couldn't reveal that to my spouse-to-be.

[Marleena]

Victoria, first off none of us on the board are cruel enough to enjoy seeing your situation. It definitely does suck big time. The problem is some women cannot accept the fact her man crossdresses, ever. You cannot force acceptance on them, or expect it. However once you know it won't go away you are obligated to let every partner know early on in the relationship. It lets you know if they can accept it or not. It is better than getting caught or giving the spouse the reasoning you hid it or did "the big lie". The fact that therapists say nothing is wrong with it opens the door for couples counselling if she cannot accept. All is not lost if she'll listen to a therapist. Just don't expect her to because she sees it as your problem.


Best of luck but keep the doors of communication open.

[MysticLady]

The fact that therapists say nothing is wrong with it opens the door for couples counselling if she cannot accept. All is not lost if she'll listen to a therapist.

Hi Marleena, please don't take this as directed at you.

You know what also ticks me off. Is the fact that a woman will sit and listen to a third party rather than "Her" husband on things as personal as this. And to top it off, some women actually feel better afterwards. Why is that? Do they not trust the Men they married? Is the "man of the house" a joke? Paying someone so that my wife's malfunctioning brain can be manipulated into thinking it's ok? That really chaps my Hide. I'm sorry, but I just had to get that off my chest!!!

[ErinSassyPants]

You know what also ticks me off. Is the fact that a woman will sit and listen to a third party rather than "Her" husband on things as personal as this. And to top it off, some women actually feel better afterwards. Why is that? Do they not trust the Men they married? Is the "man of the house" a joke? Paying someone so that my wife's malfunctioning brain can be manipulated into thinking it's ok? That really chaps my Hide. I'm sorry, but I just had to get that off my chest!!!

I've seen you say your wife should trust you because you trust her and because you are her man and because it makes you mad that she doesn't, but I've never seen you talk about how trustworthy you are or are not. The only reason to trust someone is if they have built and earned your trust.

[Jacqueline Winona]

Reine D, in your post #91, you said what I have tried to say for so long, thank you! Not every non-disclosure is a lie and the distinction you drew between active or regular dressers and those who are not is a fair one.

[Nyla F]

Hi Mystic, I'm sorry about what you are going through. My wife also does not understand. We have gone though a lot of turmoil, and counseling, and were on the brink of divorce (by me because of the distance between us my CDing had caused). Gradually we have repaired our relationship. We have an arrangement whereby I can wear panties 24/7, which for me relieves most of the anxiety. I have shared with her as much as I think she can handle. We are now in a stable situation where we are very happy together and our sex life is great. She told me recently that worries about my crossdressing expanding, I think she worries about me eventually wanting to present to her as a woman. Why would I tell her that I occasionally wear skirts, bras, and other things? It wouldn't help me, I'd never wear them around her. and it wouldn't help her. If she ever does find out, at least we will have enjoyed a few years of bliss (or blissful ignorance).

It would be different if she indicated that she wanted me to be open with her about this. In fact quite the opposite is true, she has told me she hates having to talk about it.

I dream about being open with her about everything, but I have to wait until she is ready. I'm ok with that.

[CherylFlint]

First date told my wife.
Honesty works.

[MysticLady]

I've seen you say your wife should trust you because you trust her and because you are her man and because it makes you mad that she doesn't, but I've never seen you talk about how trustworthy you are or are not. The only reason to trust someone is if they have built and earned your trust.

Hi Erin, I have been married for @ 23 years. She trusts me w/ everything that I handle regarding my family. Heavy finances are my cup of tea. She want's no part of it. She has told me this. She'll handle the normal family financing. I still have access to all our accounts because she trusts me. Plus, she trusts me regarding my kiddo's and how I decide to educate them. She trusts me pretty much in everything that I do except the CDing. She doesn't trust me on interior decorating, I accept that since my tastes are different and I prefer her tastes better. Like I said already, She knows I'm a horndog yet, I only want my wife for intimacy. I don't go seeking another woman. I'm not bragging but she knows that would not be an issue for me.
Yet, when it comes to this CD thing, she wants no part of it, no way, no how, no bueno, no no no no. It's not that she doesn't want to trust me on this, she just doesn't want it, no way whatsoever, which too me is a lack of trust on her behalf. She thinks it'll escalate into something tragic:doh:


We have an arrangement whereby I can wear panties 24/7, which for me relieves most of the anxiety.
I dream about being open with her about everything, but I have to wait until she is ready. I'm ok with that.

Nyla, I'm Happy for you in that you're satisfied w/ that. You say, that you dream of sharing everything w/ her. Why is that we are at times afraid of sharing a feeling or something so deep w/ a spouse. It is because of her mental instability that we're afraid to say anything. Or is it the emotional nightmare that we fear in dealing with because of their lack of understanding.


First date told my wife.
Honesty works.

Hi Cheryl, I believe that if this was an issue w/ me in the beginning when we met that I would have discussed this w/ her before we got married. I know now that she would've probably dumped me like a rock since this is not something she can't handle. But, it wasn't an issue then, but it is now.

You know, when me and my wife we're first married, yes I could see she had her emotions and I accepted it. Most women are like that. But, over time I've noticed that she's been relying on that crutch more and more. She knows that when she would get emotional, I would eventually cave in too her in order to please her. Not Now and not on this! As a matter of fact, her emotional fits have become extremely irritating to me. I hate whiners and I don't want a whiner for a wife. I've told her to use her control issue and control herself and not anybody else. So far, she's having issues w/ her control issue. I will not cave in too her whines now, and I think this is what pissing her off even more. Oh well, looks like we need to grow up and become real.

Sorry, just my thoughts.

[ErinSassyPants]

Hi Erin, I have been married for @ 23 years. She trusts me w/ everything that I handle regarding my family. Heavy finances are my cup of tea. She want's no part of it. She has told me this. She'll handle the normal family financing. I still have access to all our accounts because she trusts me. Plus, she trusts me regarding my kiddo's and how I decide to educate them. She trusts me pretty much in everything that I do except the CDing. She doesn't trust me on interior decorating, I accept that since my tastes are different and I prefer her tastes better. Like I said already, She knows I'm a horndog yet, I only want my wife for intimacy. I don't go seeking another woman. I'm not bragging but she knows that would not be an issue for me.
Yet, when it comes to this CD thing, she wants no part of it, no way, no how, no bueno, no no no no. It's not that she doesn't want to trust me on this, she just doesn't want it, no way whatsoever, which too me is a lack of trust on her behalf. She thinks it'll escalate into something tragic:doh:


Did you notice that you still have not addressed if you are worthy of trust? You say she trusts you in these many different ways, but you haven't said in which areas you deserve trust.

Also, trust is not a switch you turn on or off, it is a complex dynamic. You can trust someone in some ways and not in other ways. I have friends I can trust to do what they say they will do, but that I can't trust to be gentle with my feelings if I am feeling tender. I have friends who I can trust to be gentle and supportive but who I don't trust to show up to stuff and if they do I can't trust them to be on time. Just as a simple example.

So you think she trusts you in some areas, that doesn't mean she can or should trust you in this. Trust is about vulnerability. She may be able to trust you with all of those other things because they don't cut to the core of her heart, feelings of value as a woman and the foundation of her life and marriage. Part of the problem with marrying a woman who makes her marriage her life is that when you disturb the marriage it makes her whole life shaky.

Tell me, what makes you worthy of trust in this area? Can you show that you will always consider her feelings? Can you guarantee that you will not escalate or transition? Of course not. No one can, least of all someone who was struck by pink lightening 3 months ago. You showed her that you can take sudden and extreme turns in your needs and wants. What have you done to show her that she can trust that if more changes come you will be there for her in the ways you are asking her to be there for you?

[MysticLady]

Did you notice that you still have not addressed if you are worthy of trust? You say she trusts you in these many different ways, but you haven't said in which areas you deserve trust.


Hi Erin. Lets see......you don't know me so I can sit all day and type why she should trust me. Let me say this. When I married this woman, I married her before God. I not only made a promise too her but also too Him. If I break my promise to her, then I'm breaking my promise too Him. I'm not perfect but, I try not breaking my promises to Him. Him is the one I fear, not my wife. So, if I decide on doing something that will change our dynamics as Husband and Wife, then, I will be answering too Him regarding that and not my wife. For a secular mentality, this does not mean a thing. But, for a spiritual mentality, it is a matter of life or death.

[ErinSassyPants]

Hi Erin. Lets see......you don't know me so I can sit all day and type why she should trust me. Let me say this. When I married this woman, I married her before God. I not only made a promise too her but also too Him. If I break my promise to her, then I'm breaking my promise too Him. I'm not perfect but, I try not breaking my promises to Him. Him is the one I fear, not my wife. So, if I decide on doing something that will change our dynamics as Husband and Wife, then, I will be answering too Him regarding that and not my wife. For a secular mentality, this does not mean a thing. But, for a spiritual mentality, it is a matter of life or death.

This is a really interesting response, do you not believe that spending time as a woman is not already changing your dynamics as husband and wife?

[GBJoker]

My vote on whether to be honest or not heavily depends on the situation and people involved. I don't know what else to say.

[MysticLady]

This is a really interesting response, do you not believe that spending time as a woman is not already changing your dynamics as husband and wife?

Nope........because I feel that this femininity is a part of my design.

[ErinSassyPants]

Nope........because I feel that this femininity is a part of my design.

I feel it is part of your design too. But I can't figure out how you figure it's not changing the dynamics between you and your wife.

[MysticLady]

Well, let's see. I am still her man, I don't dress in front of her and don't ever want to be intimate w/ her while dressed. I don't want to go any further than I have.(out once in a while en femme to nightclubs) I'm content with where I'm at. Around her, I would be in drab and I have no problem with that since I like being a man and I don't dislike my body or parts. Yes, temptations will always be there but that's the challenge. Being responsible to the woman I married and my children has always been my primary goal.

[ErinSassyPants]

Well, let's see. I am still her man, I don't dress in front of her and don't ever want to be intimate w/ her while dressed. I don't want to go any further than I have.(out once in a while en femme to nightclubs) I'm content with where I'm at. Around her, I would be in drab and I have no problem with that since I like being a man and I don't dislike my body or parts. Yes, temptations will always be there but that's the challenge. Being responsible to the woman I married and my children has always been my primary goal.

Have you ever tried to imagine how your view of her and your dynamic would have changed if she had come out to you as needing to spend time as a man? Needing to go out sometimes with the guys and do guy things?

[MysticLady]

Have you ever tried to imagine how your view of her and your dynamic would have changed if she had come out to you as needing to spend time as a man?

Honestly........It all depends on how she looked and how far this needed to go. If it was occasionally like me, I don't believe I would have serious issues. Just don't come too bed wearing a beard!!

[ErinSassyPants]

Honestly........It all depends on how she looked and how far this needed to go. If it was occasionally like me, I don't believe I would have serious issues. Just don't come too bed wearing a beard!!

So let's assume she looked like a MAN, not just a woman in men's clothing but she looked like a man. And maybe she didn't wear a beard to bed but now you've seen her looking and acting and feeling like a man. She's now spending time in the role that you have held until now. Does that change the dynamic of the relationship?

Now you are in a relationship that instead of being a man and a woman is now a man and a person who is sometimes a man and sometimes a woman. Depending on how she is designed you may be in a homosexual relationship. Are you ok with that?

[PaulaQ]

Have you ever tried to imagine how your view of her and your dynamic would have changed if she had come out to you as needing to spend time as a man? Needing to go out sometimes with the guys and do guy things?

Comparing Victoria to a FtM TS is kind of a stretch. BTW, she might surprise us, and be totally OK with this even if your hypothetical were to happen. I know a married couple that's a FtM TS and her male spouse. They get on OK, best I can tell.

I get your point, but it just isn't comparable. Passing for FtM's is pretty hard to do. If she just dressed up like a guy - well, nobody would probably notice. (This is a problem for FtM's, actually.)

Actually even if Mrs. Victoria were a FtM TS, it's still not quite comparable. Most FtM TS guys don't opt to alter their genitalia.

[mariehart]

Is there such as thing as a female crossdresser? Transexual yes, but crossdressing in the context we know? Not really. Women can wear men's clothes quite freely and can behave in an atypical masculine way, at least in our western society.

On the other hand we continue the taboo that men may not dress as women or even in women's clothes. That's the problem we face. I haven't 'told' my wife and indeed threads like this don't encourage me to tell her. Although in fact as I said in previous comments, I believe she suspects or even knows and has decided not to confront the issue. Yet she acknowledges my feminine side quite often. Only the other night there was a TV programme about 'Ladyboys' which she turned on. She could not have failed to notice my knowledge of the subject even if the subject is quite irrelevant to my case.

Yet it continues with her ignoring the issue. It leaves me with a dilemma. I would even be happy if she acknowledged it but told me she didn't want to see it. At least I wouldn't have to creep around the subject and worry that she finds some of my stuff. Ironically I do think one of her sisters knows for sure.

[Marleena]

For anybody that wants to tell their wife.

http://www.myhusbandbetty.com/2003/09/29/how-to-tell-your-wife/

[MysticLady]

Thank You Marleena for the Link. It's very informative. I recommend anyone getting ready to let the wife in on a little secret to read it. It'll help.

[Marleena]

Thanks Victoria. I think it is a helpful link and probably the best I've come across.

I think far too often we blame the wife for not being reasonable or accepting. What we have to remember is that society in general does not readily accept us. The cisgender population has a hard time understanding us because their gender is not skewed. There is no doubt. They only see black and white since they never encountered an MTF and finding their SO is one is understandably disturbing to some of them.

I'll show my age here but when I was young the girls were taught to find their knight in shining armor. He would protect them and they would get married and have kids. Nobody told them their knight in shining armor might wear dresses.

Like I said before it is disappointing to be rejected by somebody you love but we can't force it on them. It really isn't fair to even try to force them to accept it. That includes me as being TS now. I would not blame my wife if she decided she couldn't handle it sometime in the future. I felt the same way as a Cder.

[Lorileah]

Comparing Victoria to a FtM TS is kind of a stretch. how so? There is no exclusive license on this. The question as I saw it was "What if your wife was the TG?"
BTW, she might surprise us, and be totally OK with this even if your hypothetical were to happen. I know a married couple that's a FtM TS and her male spouse. They get on OK, best I can tell. This has been discussed many times in this forum. It amazes me the number of MtFs who say it would be an absolute NO GO. How they could NEVER accept their SO packing or wearing a beard. All I can say is sauce...goose...gander. But it proves the point that the men here are just as unaccepting of things they don't understand (or even if they DID understand being TG themselves).

Passing for FtM's is pretty hard to do.[[quote] Really? I know several who do a wonderful job. Better than most MtFs [quote] If she just dressed up like a guy - well, nobody would probably notice. (This is a problem for FtM's, actually.)
I think you are misunderstanding things here. How is this a problem?

Actually even if Mrs. Victoria were a FtM TS, it's still not quite comparable. Most FtM TS guys don't opt to alter their genitalia. and this is why I miss the guys who used to fill these boards. Why you ask are they no longer here? Mostly because of the CDs who said things like "Most don't opt for surgery" Every one I knew had some sort of surgery and I still talk to several who are undergoing penile construction. Why don't more FtMs have surgery? It isn't perfect and really isn't even tolerable in most cases. Not that they wouldn't but that they are willing to get half way.


Is there such as thing as a female crossdresser? Of course there are. I know several females who fill masculine gender roles and dress for it. There are also drag kings
Women can wear men's clothes quite freely and can behave in an atypical masculine way, at least in our western society. Old tired argument. No one says you cannot dress and act feminine. Most of the stigma is on the male who is scared to dress and go out. Now if you want to say that sexual dressing for FtM CDs is rare, I will buy that but it still isn't unheard of.


On the other hand we continue the taboo that men may not dress as women or even in women's clothes. Again this is often more because the male doesn't have the courage to challenge it. I wonder what women were saying in the early part of the 20th century when they wanted to wear certain clothing? Do you think they whined about society? The ones who did change fashion did it because they wanted it. I have to admit that wearing slacks while building airplanes makes more sense than a skirt but they just did it. When men can get a 25% consensus about a style (actually if their SO would get that consensus...because women drive men's fashion) you would start to see men is skirts. Why don't men do it? Most like the stigma and fear at least early on for sexual purposes.

[Greenie]

I think Erin's point wasn't to shine light on Ftm cders but more to point towards the idea that even if occasionally CDers are asking their GG/SO's to often participate in a same sex relationship. She was turning the tables and asking mystic if his wife were to want to live as a man, even occasionally would he then be okay with being in a homosexual relationship.

Mystic then pointed out that she never has to see him in femme and its only occasionally. That's great. But in your wife's mind she now knows there is a part of you that is a woman. There are days in which you dress like, look like, and act like a woman. Even if its not in her presence she is still aware.

While I am not religious. There is a religious sentiment that has been thrown around here. So we can use that for context. You married her under the pretext that you would be MAN and WIFE. You initiated in a contract under the eyes of god. In her mind, you have now changed the text of that contract to read SOMETIMES MAN and wife. That's not what she signed on for. WIFE and WIFE is not what she was expecting nor SOMETIMES MAN and wife. If she truly doesnt support you maybe we need to look into the promise of marriage under god in the first place.

If this relationship is as rooted in religious fundamentals as mystic makes it seem then we need to look at this in a different way. A woman religious enough to believe that the man is king, is probably also religious enough to reject any form of homosexuality. Mystic has made it clear, HE is the MAN of the house. SHE listens and YIELDS to him. While in my opinion this is a very archaic way of thinking this does still exist in our society. So she has been living this religiously fundamental life. Yet all of a sudden the BASIS of the CONSTUCT of her ENTIRE marriage is shattered. How can she expect to yield to a man who is self admittedly feminine? She is being asked, to accept her husband in his feminine form. Even if she doesn't have to see it, it doesnt mean she cannot have a reaction to it. Classic if a tree falls in the woods does it still make a sound theory. If this is a "part of you" and "part of your design" and she needs to accept it, did you not just build a LIFE on a pretext of you being the kind of man that is nearly opposite of this? Yet you cannot understand why she is upset? Why she cannot accept this? Why she is reacting so weird?

Sorry if this is harsh, but you found a woman who prescribes to your antiquated and outdated ritualistic form of "gender roles" you can't just change the "gender roles" on this poor woman and be upset that she doesnt agree. You were lucky to find a woman who "served you" and "treated you like a king" to begin with. Sorry if I think that this and a respect for ones self are mutually exclusive. Your wife is stepping up for the ideals she BELIVES in that you PROMISED her when you were wed. You can't just go change those promises, claim this is part of you and she needs to accept you. That's unfair.

[MysticLady]

You can't just go change those promises, claim this is part of you and she needs to accept you. That's unfair.

Very Nice Response Greenie. I must admit, you got me thinking. I read your post and I want too say I agree but, Some things must be accepted as they are. I didn't design myself or lay out my life for me. I move through it and what I own are my choices only. I know my wife will never be a FtM or will think about ever doing that. One of the reasons I married her, for her strong ritualistic beliefs. But, thanks for jinxing me Greenie:heehee:. Tomorrow she'll show up w/ a sock in her crotch and a beard:doh:. Now, I'm in a position, where I am challenging some of her ideology which I don't believe is ritualistic. Shall I discontinue allowing this other side of me to be repressed and therefore become angry and depressed and unhappy because of her "ideology" and not her beliefs. I believe that ideology and Faith are completely different. Her "ideas" is what I'm up against and not her Faith. You certainly picked my brain on this one Greenie. Thank You.

You see, why I appreciate the input of a GG. It offers a different perspective on a situation and I really appreciate that. Again, Thanks to all GG's that are part of this forum.:hugs:

[PaulaQ]

As for Victoria, I didn't think about drag kings. I think that would be a better analogy. I know if my wife wanted to do that sometimes, it wouldn't bother me.



Passing for FtM's is pretty hard to do. Really? I know several who do a wonderful job. Better than most MtFs I think you are misunderstanding things here. How is this a problem?

Sorry, it was late and I was distracted when I typed this. (My primary computer was dead, and I was fixing it at the time - still am.) I was unclear, and I apologize.

I know several as well who are quite passable - one in particular who's genetically gifted (he's really tall) who even though I know he started out as a girl, it is completely impossible for me to think of him as anything but a dude.

As far as it being harder, breast binding sucks. Growing facial and body hair takes hormones. What I was referring to is that you take the average guy, put him in a dress, and people immediately go "oh shit - a guy in a dress." Put a girl in the stuff the same guy was wearing, we'll say jeans and a t-shirt, and people just see a girl. The clothing isn't as much of a gender queue for women, that's all I meant to say.


Mostly because of the CDs who said things like "Most don't opt for surgery" Every one I knew had some sort of surgery and I still talk to several who are undergoing penile construction. Why don't more FtMs have surgery? It isn't perfect and really isn't even tolerable in most cases. Not that they wouldn't but that they are willing to get half way.

I was, again, unspecific. I meant penile reconstructive surgery. I'd imagine virtually every FtM who can afford it gets a double mastectomy. (Breast binding sucks, and breasts are a huge tell.) Many of them avoid penile reconstructive surgery, because it has several really serious problems:
1. In most cases, they can't have orgasms - ever again.
2. It isn't functional for sexual purposes.
3. It's extremely expensive
They do gain the ability to pee standing up. (Which is awesome.) So really, it's a pretty big downside unless they just have extreme GD because they have a vagina. None of the half dozen FtM's I know are opting for this surgery.


Again this is often more because the male doesn't have the courage to challenge it. I wonder what women were saying in the early part of the 20th century when they wanted to wear certain clothing? Do you think they whined about society? Why don't men do it? Most like the stigma and fear at least early on for sexual purposes.

I don't believe the situation is symmetrical at all. Women get away with this because they get the short-end of the stick in almost every other regard socially. (Pay, lack of authority, etc.) Men don't because a primary way men are socialized is through shame. We are supposed to be masculine - this is socially reinforced MUCH more strongly than for women to be feminine.

BTW, I don't think anyone can seriously honestly answer how they'd react to this unless they were faced with it. It is VERY different to deal with this question in the abstract, than to deal with it with someone you know / love. That's why I don't in general like this question, because almost no one who hasn't been through it can really answer it honestly.


Most of the stigma is on the male who is scared to dress and go out.

Although I haven't personally experienced this, where I live, there is, I'm told, the very real prospect of violence against a MtF. The person who I know who is most adamant about this danger is an out lesbian (former) activist who lives in town. She's out, but she doesn't talk about it unless she knows you are cool. And she tells me "you are insane to go around town dressed as a woman, you are in real danger."


I think Erin's point wasn't to shine light on Ftm cders but more to point towards the idea that even if occasionally CDers are asking their GG/SO's to often participate in a same sex relationship. She was turning the tables and asking mystic if his wife were to want to live as a man, even occasionally would he then be okay with being in a homosexual relationship.

It's just clothes!

I can understand this argument for someone who's TS like me, where ultimately I'll (hopefully) undergo sufficient bodily changes to be perceived as a woman. That would be a same sex relationship.

Even still, your gender is only one part of your identity.

I think, though, that regardless of that, Victoria's spouse is a lot like mine, and the idea of her man in any type of feminine garb shatters her image of his maleness. For my wife, seeing me in women's clothes, especially since I don't look all that bad for a biological dude shattered her view of me, and essentially killed her interest in me sexually on the spot. (We have had sex once or twice since then, but she has to be pretty drunk. note: my wife waffles on stuff a lot, and when she needs sex, well, she needs it.) I haven't even started any of the trans stuff yet.

I don't think there's much point in trying to apply logic to the situation, or arguing whether or not it's reasonable. Obviously it's unreasonable, but also obviously it doesn't matter because how someone feels is how they feel. Sometimes they can change their minds, sometimes not. I'm guessing for both Victoria's wife and my wife, the answer is "not."


You were lucky to find a woman who "served you" and "treated you like a king" to begin with

Ironically enough, in my case, I married the independent woman who was damned sure going to be certain to pay her own way in our relationship! Fast forward 20 years, and she's wondering how she'll make a living, after many half-hearted attempts at career changes, and leaves all the hard stuff to me, and expects me to be "the man". So she's changed A LOT. She gets a pass on this apparently, I don't. If she knew this is what she really wanted (a man's man), then she wasn't honest with me at the start of our relationship. I don't think that's the case. Things changed along the way. Some people can deal with change, some can't. I dealt with her changes, she can't deal with mine. Sure, mine are more visible, and more extreme. (Or ARE they? She quit working. What if I'd chosen to do that? I always made several times her income. Why was it OK for her to quit, but not me? I'm not saying financially, I'm saying socially?)

[ErinSassyPants]

The point Mystic is NOT if it could happen. The point is for you to take some time and think about if your places were reversed so that you can possibly gain some insight into her feelings.

This is an exercise that is helpful in all kinds of situations and the more often you do it the more automatic it becomes to place yourself in another's shoes and be more understanding of what they may be thinking or feeling. It doesn't mean you even will come up with what they are feeling.

As I see it, the trouble is that you keep putting forth that she is "weird" to have any problem with this. I am not saying you have to change your thoughts and feelings, I'm saying taking time to put yourself in her position is important so that you stop acting like she shouldn't have any thoughts or feelings you don't understand or want to deal with.

That's it. It doesn't matter if it could happen, It doesn't matter if "it wouldn't be the same", it doesn't matter if you'd change your stance, it only matters if you can gain an understanding that she is not being unreasonable to have thoughts and feelings on this.

Also, everything Greenie said seems very insightful to me.

[Sister Rachel]

I suppose it's a test of the depth of your relationship .. I 'fessed up to Anne about four years into our marriage, but it's only in the last three years ( about fifteen years in ) that I've really become open about it .. actually I can be precise about this, New Year's Eve 2010/11 I put on my prom dress and some rather over-the-top spotty pattern tights and danced to Cindy Lauper's "Girls Just Wanna Have Fun", and I'll say this straight, there was an element of conflict about it, because Anne has or had an innate "whatever I do, and however much I want to drink is OK" attitude and I decided to fight back a bit, a sort of "right, here it is, in your face, this is me moment. .. and it's worked very well ever since :) Tonight I came home tired from work and she suggested that I take a bath and "get dressed in something comfortable" .. which I intend to do right now ;)

[Greenie]

It's just clothes!


Yeah I get that. But for someone as "traditional" as mystics wife. Its not. We all know that CDing doesn't change a person. But my point with that whole post was that someone that traditional won't or even CAN'T look at it the way we do. I don't think that makes her in the "wrong" or "weird" or whatever. It makes her the person mystic married for the exact reasons he married her. Its unfortunate that the reason he married her are now working against him.

Mystic: Thanks for taking my post as it was. I felt like I was being super harsh, but it was the best way I could explain my thoughts. I had to open up a can of tough love for that one.
I was trying to make you think outside the box. That's what we are all here for is to help one another. So I am glad that is what happened.

On a separate note, I don't think that anyone changing for anyone else is the proper fix to this problem here. You may have gotten to a point where your ideas are no longer compatible. Divorce might just be the best. Not because you don't love one another, but your ways of thinking are no longer compatible. That's no fun for either of you.

[PaulaQ]

Yeah I get that. But for someone as "traditional" as mystics wife. Its not. We all know that CDing doesn't change a person. But my point with that whole post was that someone that traditional won't or even CAN'T look at it the way we do. I don't think that makes her in the "wrong" or "weird" or whatever. It makes her the person mystic married for the exact reasons he married her. Its unfortunate that the reason he married her are now working against him.

Oh I understand, and I know you do too, but breaking up a family is a pretty extreme step, especially being unwilling to try anything else. (Even a few counselling sessions where the end result was still "nope, still hate it, he's gone" would at least be an attempt at working things out.) Although we aren't required to be rational, I have a hard time being sympathetic to someone with such extreme and rigid views. Oh well, some people are probably born racists or homophobes too, I guess we have to have some sympathy for them too - they can't help it, after all, it's how they are built.

[Lorileah]

Oh well, some people are probably born racists or homophobes too, I guess we have to have some sympathy for them too - they can't help it, after all, it's how they are built. I don't think anyone is born racist or homophobic...It is carefully and strongly taught. Put a bunch of children together in a room and it isn't race or orientation (in a child?...oh well hang with me on this) it is greed and selfishness that starts fights. Now the same kids 5 years later after the parents and peers get their chance to teach bad habits using greed and selfishness as a base will be racist or homophobic. The tools are there, but someone teaches them to use the tools. In the case of TGism, we are told early on what we can and cannot do and how we present. From the start where pink/blue are used to reinforce types. Ask a man what he wants hid son to grow up to be and they will list hundreds of "manly" things. Ask a mom and she will usually say "happy".

[MysticLady]

Divorce might just be the best. Not because you don't love one another, but your ways of thinking are no longer compatible. That's no fun for either of you.

If she would only keep quiet, do as I say, everything will be alright. Plus, no more emotional freakouts. I can't stand that anymore.


Oh well, some people are probably born racists or homophobes too, I guess we have to have some sympathy for them too - they can't help it, after all, it's how they are built.

I agree Paula, some folks are just dug in and won't open up their minds. In my wife's case, it's not her upbringing that has caused this, it's her ideology that's causing issues. She's hardheaded and closedminded when it comes to my dressing.:straightface:

[PaulaQ]

I don't think anyone is born racist or homophobic...It is carefully and strongly taught.

Gosh, I guess it could be the same for transphobic people, huh?

[VeronicaMoonlit]

(Sheesh, I didn't commit infidelity or anything) She keeps saying, I just don't understand.:straightface:


If she would only keep quiet, do as I say, everything will be alright. Plus, no more emotional freakouts. I can't stand that anymore.


I agree Paula, some folks are just dug in and won't open up their minds. In my wife's case, it's not her upbringing that has caused this, it's her ideology that's causing issues. She's hardheaded and closedminded when it comes to my dressing.:straightface:

You don't understand. You simply seem to lack the ability to empathize with her, it' all about what YOU want, and YOUR needs, who cares how she feels. She should just be a quiet little wifey and do what you say and let you do what you want because YOU'RE the Man of the House and In Charge.

Do you understand that you're being quite chauvinistic in your crossdressing, don't you?

Doesn't matter what your reasons, you hid something Important from her and she "feels" lied to and betrayed even if "you" don't see it as a "lie". She's got a right to her own feelings so for goodness sakes...EMPATHIZE and quit being stuck in the marital styles of the past when the Man Was In Charge and Had All the Say.

And yes, the reason some people harp on the honesty issue is so that the folks who are younger and/or not married won't make the mistakes of the past.

Veronica

[ErinSassyPants]

And yes, the reason some people harp on the honesty issue is so that the folks who are younger and/or not married won't make the mistakes of the past.

Veronica

I agree with everything that Veronica said, but I wanted to mention this part specifically.

When it comes down to it Victoria you'll do what you'll do and in many ways I think what we say isn't going to have any effect on you. But I haven't gotten to the point yet of being able to just let some of the things you say go by without challenging them, not because of you but because there are others who are reading all of this and I hope that we give them a more well rounded set of thoughts to consider when we bring up all of the different sides of issues.

[MysticLady]

You don't understand. You simply seem to lack the ability to empathize with her, it' all about what YOU want, and YOUR needs, who cares how she feels. She should just be a quiet little wifey and do what you say and let you do what you want because YOU'RE the Man of the House and In Charge.


Ah...............Pretty much sums it up. She does say I have a Heart of Stone. Actually I think my heart is a lot softer than hers.




When it comes down to it Victoria you'll do what you'll do and in many ways I think what we say isn't going to have any effect on you.

Actually Erin, some things that you and others have said has caused me to think about them in regards to my situation.



But I haven't gotten to the point yet of being able to just let some of the things you say go by without challenging them

I have already figured this out about you. You're very persistent and analytical. A total woman trait :heehee:

[PaulaQ]

You don't understand. You simply seem to lack the ability to empathize with her, it' all about what YOU want, and YOUR needs, who cares how she feels. She should just be a quiet little wifey and do what you say and let you do what you want because YOU'RE the Man of the House and In Charge.

In all fairness, Victoria is willing to compromise to some extent, ie DADT. Her wife views this as perversion, and will not tolerate it at all. This isn't a position that allows for compromise - Victoria either quits entirely, or she can't live in her home. How is that chauvinistic? The only real chauvinism here is her surprise that her wife would take such a strong and absolute position.



Doesn't matter what your reasons, you hid something Important from her and she "feels" lied to and betrayed even if "you" don't see it as a "lie". She's got a right to her own feelings so for goodness sakes...EMPATHIZE and quit being stuck in the marital styles of the past when the Man Was In Charge and Had All the Say.

And yes, the reason some people harp on the honesty issue is so that the folks who are younger and/or not married won't make the mistakes of the past.

Veronica

Oh the lie argument, yes everyone has perfect self knowledge before they get married, nothing like this ever hits someone from out of the blue... I mean would you listen to yourself? That is just an absurd thing to assume by default. It is fairly obvious that Victoria at least would've been better off keeping her secret. Oh I know - her wife wouldn't get to "decide." Getting punished for doing the right thing isn't much of an incentive to honesty. It seems fairly clear that Mrs. V would rather break up her family than deal with this. It would be one thing if she tried, and couldn't hack it - but she couldn't.

I think the tendency here to try to make examples out of people is complete bullshit, and pretty unfair. Why don't you get a group together and stone her to make your point? It is also not intellectually honest at all in my opinion. Want to teach honesty - be honest yourself and don't use cheap tactics to score points.

[ErinSassyPants]

Paula, are you saying that after reading all of Victoria's posts you don't see anything chauvinistic? That sort of takes my breath away it's so shocking to me.

[PaulaQ]

Paula, are you saying that after reading all of Victoria's posts you don't see anything chauvinistic?
No, I definitely get the impression of chauvinism from reading her posts. However, afaik (maybe I missed something - it's a long thread) she's only talking about her relationship with her wife, not all women. Since her wife is apparently satisfied with the relationship working that way (or at least is unhappy that it's changed), I think it's better to say that she and her wife have very old school ideas about gender roles. This is a little hard to get my head around, since she's well, being referred to as "she" in this thread, and that isn't terribly old-school at all, is it? I think she's just not totally processed this CD stuff emotionally yet, perhaps. (It is hard to process.)

That being said, I have the impression that she's tried to compromise more than her wife has. It's possible that neither of them is capable of compromising enough - but I think her wife's position is "no CDing is acceptable under any circumstances," which doesn't really allow much room for compromise. I suspect some of the stuff that sounds chauvinistic may well be anger, and genuine confusion over "what the shit just happened? I used to be in charge." I could be wrong, of course. Sometimes we shoot off our mouths in anger. Or maybe neither of them knows how to get past their impasse.

[ErinSassyPants]

I suspect some of the stuff that sounds chauvinistic may well be anger, and genuine confusion over "what the shit just happened? I used to be in charge."

That seems very possible. I have compassion for Victoria's struggles during this time. I really do, I simply want her to have compassion for her wife's struggles during this time.

I also understand that her chauvinistic comments are going to be triggers for alot of women including me.

Victoria, have you considered that you are working hard to make the GGs here upset with you? Are you trying to have someone to fight with besides your wife? or maybe trying to punish yourself? Because if you truly believe the things you've said about women it has to be extremely painful to be drawn to be one, even part time. It also doesn't make any sense to ask for GG input and then insult us over and over again.

I really do want you to find helpful thoughts here, but that won't stop any of us from calling you on the insulting and demeaning things you say.

[MysticLady]

However, afaik (maybe I missed something - it's a long thread) she's only talking about her relationship with her wife, not all women..

Exactly, these feelings are not directed at all women. I am not bound to them or are they bound too me. This is strictly between me and my wife.



Or maybe neither of them knows how to get past their impasse.

Yes, We're stuck and not moving anywhere on this.


That seems very possible. I have compassion for Victoria's struggles during this time. I really do, I simply want her to have compassion for her wife's struggles during this time. .

I truly appreciate your thoughts and compassion for us in our situation.



Victoria, have you considered that you are working hard to make the GGs here upset with you? Are you trying to have someone to fight with besides your wife? or maybe trying to punish yourself?.

I can see that and I'm sorry that seems to be the case. I don't want you all to think that I'm picking fights w/ GG's to get back at my wife's mentality. How could I direct that at accepting GG's that are understanding and are accepting. That would not be fair too them. I'm not punishing myself in discussing my feelings w/ folks, I just want their input on the situation, and yes, sometimes I have too vent, I'm just human also.



Because if you truly believe the things you've said about women it has to be extremely painful to be drawn to be one, even part time. It also doesn't make any sense to ask for GG input and then insult us over and over again. .

Again, Erin, You are not bound to me. This is not directed at the GG population. These feelings are of my wife only. I'm sorry that you feel that way because of my comments. I will agree, Bound to a woman is very difficult at times. Going back and forth, wasting time. Why do you think I'm the way I am, Because it turns me on or something? The Power Thing maybe?. Power is the last thing on my mind. As a matter of fact, it's not worth the headaches that come w/ it.



I really do want you to find helpful thoughts here, but that won't stop any of us from calling you on the insulting and demeaning things you say.

Erin, I don't want too lose yours or other GG's input and membership. I will try too hold back some of my thoughts so that I will not offend you and others anymore.

[Tina B.]

After all these pages of this I would like to make just one more point.
You Can't reason with a homophobe, no matter how much logic you use, they can't get past the hate, and fear of what they can't understand, and they don't want to understand.