Disconnects

[LeaP]

Misty recently posted a comment in another thread that:


... This is why meeting a real TS is so shocking for some people, there is a disconnect between how they look and how they act. Until the look is finally corrected.

I had a variation on this experience recently. I attended a trans support group meeting where I met several trans men for the first time. They were completely, totally guys in every conceivable way. I have often heard people comment on how cool trans men are. I never understood it until now. It almost seemed magical, odd though that may sound. Guys regardless, though.

Most of the trans women, on the other hand, just sort of resonated with me as opposed to coming off as women per se. The contrast in how I experienced the trans men vs trans women was interesting because it struck me that it is harder for me to see the woman in (pre-transition) trans women than it is the man in trans men. Yet trans women "feel" like me, have a familiar spirit, and I did note behavior and attitude differences.

But why is it hard for me to see the woman in the trans women? I feel the differences between us and men - very clearly - but don't experience other trans women AS women (usually, anyway) until they are typically well past transition - despite seeing us collectively as "different."

So I experience the disconnect Misty mentions, but not consistently in the two populations. Maybe it's because I project my own muddled experience onto the trans women. If my self-perception and perceptions of other trans women proceeds from my experience of discovery and change - essentially constituting TRANS identity - it tells me that it is necessarily a temporary state. That is, unless I'm prepared to accept a sort of twilight gender existence, qualitatively. Knowing something and living it (i.e., internally) are two different things. Some say it is possible to have a rich, true-gendered life without transition. I don't think I believe that, at least for me.

Getting back to behavior and attitude differences, the most significant of the latter was what I can best describe as a recurring pattern of emotional checks among the trans women during the discussion where there would be regular eye contact when someone else was speaking, as if to signal how to read the remarks or respond to them. When I noticed it, I looked for it among the trans men. Didn't happen. I had a sense of connection with the other trans women that I did not with the trans men, though I enjoyed them enormously.

As for experiencing other trans women foremost as women, perhaps this becomes easier post transition when your identity has become fully actualized.

[Badtranny]

That's interesting Lea, but my experience is not the same. I have the privilege of knowing quite a few MTF transitioners and they FEEL like women to me, even though they are still very early in their physical transition. This is the most obvious difference between the average CD and the average TS as far as I'm concerned.

If you spend enough time with enough different people, you will begin to notice similarities.

[ErinSassyPants]

Now that you mention it...FTMs do have a bit of a magical feel to them in my experience.

I think that you answered your own post when you said


Maybe it's because I project my own muddled experience onto the trans women.

[ReineD]

I hope this won't offend anyone, although I suspect that it has the potential to do so. But, I'll take a deep breath and ask anyway.

I take it the ratio of transmen to transwomen was very small. If not, then this blows what I'm about to say. If so, might it be that a significant number of people who think they are transwomen, aren't really and they are rather gender non-conforming?

There. I said it.

I've also met transmen and they do give off 100% male vibes. But, their numbers are few because genetic women do not crossdress. I suspect there are more TGs among MtFs because of the sheer number of CDers (or gender non-conformists).

I've attended many evenings at my SO's gender support group over the years. There are no fetish CDers there, and for the most part, the members are middle aged and dress to blend. I get the impression that most of them go out frequently. I also don't know who is living full or near full time, who is on hormones, and who is post-op save for a select few. But, I do know who gives me women's vibes (it has nothing to do with the looks or the manner of dress or even the height and size), and who doesn't. And the members who give off women's vibes are few indeed. I wish that I could analyze it to tell you what exactly are the differences, but I can't be any more precise than to say it is the way that a person holds her head, moves, her tone of voice (nothing to do with the timber), her outlook on life, to name a few.

Had everyone at your meeting transitioned or was in a real process of transition (with an established timeline)?

[Badtranny]

might it be that a significant number of people who think they are transwomen, aren't really and they are rather gender non-conforming?

The most direct yet rather sad answer is yes. I have met quite a few of those as well, most aren't transitioning so it's no problem, but some are and I feel bad for them. I have their back anyway because transition has got to be triple hard for the confused ones.

[ErinSassyPants]

I was reading a blog today about the question "when did you know you were straight" of course that started out as an excellent response to people who said that being gay was a choice but the blogger felt it was still a valid question and then went on the mention that it seemed to them that in our society we have Man and other. Either you are totally the stereotype of what *they* say men must be or you are other. So I wouldn't be surprised if there are people who having realized they are not what society says Man is think then that they must be woman. This is I am sure what the bigendered folks are trying to get us to think about more.

[ReineD]

So I wouldn't be surprised if there are people who having realized they are not what society says Man is think then that they must be woman.

I've noticed the same thing. Some of the gender non-conformists (or bigenders, dualgenders, etc) know that they feel differently when dressed than when not dressed. And they mistake the "different" feelings as feeling like a woman. The thing is, if they are women they would feel the same way internally all the time whether dressed or not, and they wouldn't experience any sort of euphoria or heightened feelings in any way just because of what they have on their backs.

[LeaP]

This is the most obvious difference between the average CD and the average TS as far as I'm concerned.

Oh, don't get me wrong, TS come off to me as quite different than CDs! Crossdressers virtually always project a male persona, perhaps even more so when attempting to emulate some sort of feminine persona. It's more like I have created a sort of mental classification that segregates pre-transition trans women, and one that effectively prevents me experiencing them in the same way I do natal females, despite my ability to see female-typical traits. My conclusion is that I'm projecting my own sense of "transness" on them. I don't perceive this (in me or them) as gender variance, and there were no jarring cues that would (to me) signal gender variance in this particular group.

Reine, all the trans women in attendence were in some phase of early to mid transition. All on HRT, with therapy relationships, none full-time yet. The trans men in attendence were all post-transition socially, 2 had had top surgery, and none had had bottom surgery, based on the nature of their comments when talking about procedures.

[bas1985]

But, their numbers are few because genetic women do not crossdress.

:) we could say that women crossdress all the time but their behavior is not considered "cross".

Or, better, that for a woman putting on her husband's clothes (if size is compatible) and going out to the mall will not usually make other people turn their heads. It is not "cross"-dressing.

Mathematically we could say that the set of the clothes that women can wear contains the set of the clothes that men can wear. So men can "cross", women cannot, because their acceptable set is far greater.

Maybe the only "real" man dress is the suit with the tie, but apart from that women can wear anything a man can, and also the suit now is in some way wearable by a woman, in any case it won't be considered "cross", but maybe only strange.

For the other things in the post I fully agree with you. There probably are a large percentage of people who think they are TS, when they are not. But this could be a dangerous field to discuss... because how to distinguish between the "right" from the "wrong" ones?

dangerous waters...

[Becoming Brianna]

I've noticed the same thing. Some of the gender non-conformists (or bigenders, dualgenders, etc) know that they feel differently when dressed than when not dressed. And they mistake the "different" feelings as feeling like a woman. The thing is, if they are women they would feel the same way internally all the time whether dressed or not, and they wouldn't experience any sort of euphoria or heightened feelings in any way just because of what they have on their backs.

Forgive me, but I am not sure i agree with this. I think that it is possible for TS people to experience a degree of relief from wearing the clothes of their true self. I am not sure as I have never dressed fully feminine and am still fighting through the issue of whether transition is right for me (a long battle it seems since I am having trouble deciding which of my doubts are real and which are socially imposed) but I suspect that being able to make a transition socially and find a positive space wherein they can find acceptance would probably have positive effects for those who know they are TS. How long these positive effects last may be another matter entirely since eventually the reality that they still have the physical male parts would hit them and they would have to move to a different area of transition but I think at least initially the effects would be positive. Just my opinion.

[ErinSassyPants]

:) we could say that women crossdress all the time but their behavior is not considered "cross".

Or, better, that for a woman putting on her husband's clothes (if size is compatible) and going out to the mall will not usually make other people turn their heads. It is not "cross"-dressing.

I disagree. I do not believe that the difference is that no one notices, the difference is that it doesn't feel special. I cross dress almost every day if you go by "wearing clothes made/sold for the opposite gender" Today for instance I wore mens shorts and sandals and a girl tank top. That is pretty standard for me. But I'm not drawn to wearing mens clothes. I'm drawn to paying less(they charge more for the same pair of shorts with a girl label on it) and being comfortable and I happen to have feet that make it easier (and cheaper) to find shoes in the mens section. I don't feel any more myself than I do when I wear my girl shorts and I don't feel any specialness or euphoria or "rightness" about wearing clothes sold for men. That is why I'm not a crossdresser, because it's not about the clothes, it's about what the clothes mean to you.

Now, I have joked to mainstream people when TG stuff came up that I was a crossdresser, it gives their preconceptions a tweak and makes them to think.

[LeaP]

Just to be clear, the intent of the thread is to discuss how TS perceive other TS, emotionally and psychologically. This has nothing to do with crossdressing experiences, whether construed as the dressing behavior of male-identified CDs or TS in gender-appropriate clothing. I don't really care for the purposes of this thread whether or not a TS feels the same or not in different modes of dress, or whether there is any kind of relief.

Misty (as I understood her) wrote about the disconnect experienced when encountering a male-bodied, MtF TS. I.e., one who IS female - not gender variant - and certainly not a crossdresser. That disconnect would, of course, disappear post-transition, ideally completely. I definitely experience the disconnect between the inner person and body, but despite that, don't usually think of, of perceive these TSs as women in the same way that I do natal women. Could be some lingering transphobia, I suppose, but I don't think so. Rather, I think I'm picking up on the effects of transition itself, the mix of male & female attributes and behavior that is unresolved.

[Kathryn Martin]

I definitely experience the disconnect between the inner person and body, but despite that, don't usually think of, of perceive these TSs as women in the same way that I do natal women. Could be some lingering transphobia, I suppose, but I don't think so. Rather, I think I'm picking up on the effects of transition itself, the mix of male & female attributes and behavior that is unresolved.

If you strip all of the visual and auditory clues (not the perceptions) out for a moment, what do you experience in the presence of another. The disconnect you are speaking about is often palpable from an early age. We are very confusing to people because we provide a dissociated experience to our environment. And what people experience is obviously not how we visually present (male bodied) but something much deeper. In my view this is in fact the source of bullying and disdain at school and later on. When we transition the dissociation recedes because now the visual complements the experience. The lingering doubts about our being born as women is deeply connected to our upbringing and it's learned behavior. Being brought up with certain expectations of male issue those effects linger far longer than we would like to believe and they "jarr" the experience even if we are fully transitioned and have moved on.

Crossdressers are an entirely different matter. They are male, escaping from the demands of their lives occasionally or frequently into what seems to be called "femme" mode (in which so we were told some days ago they like babies more and differently then when they are in male mode {sorry but I could not help myself}) but by and large embrace being men. And that is something immediately noticeable. The disconnect their social environment experiences is all clue based. A man wearing a dress that is not conforming to gender paradigms. People think that this is an offensive statement or meant to offend when I say that but nothing could be further from the truth.

I was recently asked by someone if society would deconstruct gender paradigms and expectations and it would be considered normal to wear whatever you felt like instead of gender based dress codes if I would have transitioned. My answer was that it would have done nothing to solve my problem. That would, however not be true for someone who was gender non-conformist or gender variant.

[noeleena]

Hi,

Crossdressing .

Being seen as or trying to be seen as or like a woman

Trans , some do not look like women. or dress in a modest way ,

Now im not talking about crossdresser's this is about trans people, many i have seen & know think they are women , they dont respond to myself in a way that says woman.

My women friends are all women ( natal ) & how we respond to each other is none other than what we are woman. female,
Now iv never met any trans people from our forum here so im not saying anything because i dont know you, so how can i even if i wonted too.

Any way iv felt an under tow when meeting or saying hi to some of those trans i do know quite a few infact, hence my reason to back away from them , i gave my time i tryed to be friendly towards them & just got brushed aside,

I know my friend wonts me to go to a weekend again May next year as i have been just i dont feel right about it or part of the others i know my difference & that is making it harder to have any thing in common with them.

I will go over the ditch to Austraila just not for that weekend,

Beth-loch.

I dont know about these trick's or touch's = that are very womanly i allso dont see things like a male would or does, it does not matter how i dress im just noeleena, dressed in work clothes to do building or in my skirt & top. for a commite meeting our two commite's are made up of women except for one male who does the accounts & no its not me.

To myself even with the trans its about dress what they wear, how they are made up. yet if they don male work clothes or say over alls its a no no. why for goodness sake theres very litte difference about my self my work or just my life, as iv said before muck up to my arm pits , im still just a woman no makeup no girl'e clothes on just over all's & work boots i mean how un feminine is that, is it really or has it to do with because im a woman i dont care less what i damm well wear im still female ./ woman i dont change because of my clothes or lack of makeup & those tricks or im missing this very womanly something .

So after all this maybe im seeing trans people as more like crossdresser's well some any way. & i think im right here they dont really wont to assoiate with me because im female who is a woman who has grown to be one,

...noeleena...

[Angela Campbell]

I have found that I can tell the difference in the cd and the ts quite quickly. I know many of both. I am guessing of course but it seems that a transition from female to male is much easier in both physical terms and in psychological terms than to go from male to female.

To quit the "man club" is perceived as a weakness or showing weakness and is not tolerated by society. This gives quite a psychological burden to the male to female. It is very hard to lose the learned behavior of being male and at the same time it is very hard to change the physical appearance. When both are hard to change is makes a more confusing overall appearance. I know many cd's who although have a very convincing "look" at first glance, just scream male when you watch them or talk to them. There is no doubt. The trans women I know have another quality altogether.

Maybe it is the desperation the trans women have that I am seeing.

I do know that the male image I learned as a child is something I hid behind for safety. It is so hard to let go of something that has always made you feel safe so it sometimes sneaks out when you do not realize it.

I know several TS women. I can agree that some I do not perceive as women for several reasons. Some I do.

[Badtranny]

:) There probably are a large percentage of people who think they are TS, when they are not. But this could be a dangerous field to discuss... because how to distinguish between the "right" from the "wrong" ones?

dangerous waters...


It isn't dangerous for me.

I don't make any distinction until THEY distinguish themselves to me. How is it my fault if I get a male vibe from some 'TS' women?

It is what it is. However if they are in fact transitioning, I still support them 100%

I may not have advised transition, but I still support it.

[Marleena]

I notice the disconnect but it's in me. Like I said earlier I suck at being TS and I know this. I went from a confident person in my therapists office to a struggling TS now. I impressed the therapist with my confidence and knowing who I was. I'm probably different in the fact that I'm on HRT for my brain, I needed it to stop running constantly. My quality of life was going down the tubes quickly and my wife saw it too as did my ex when I was younger. I would have given anything when I was in my twenties to fully transition but not so much now. The boobs and the rest just don't matter as long as I can relax. I don't want this, not now. Maybe that's my answer, stop where I'm at now.

The good thing is I'm not having major meltdowns. So in a sense I've accepted who and what I am but I don't like it. Throw the textbook cases out because I guess I'm different?

Lea perhaps you're seeing the TS women that are still struggling, it might be fear you sense, not sure.

[LeaP]

I don't think so, Marleena. The experience been pretty consistent. Most of the post ops I've met just seem like "ordinary" women to me. The pre-transition trans women do not. They are just that, trans women.

Mind you, I'm talking about a very subjective, gut-level experience. Cross-dressers are just men. I find my normal defenses go up and that's that. Gender variant people yield a "pull-push" sort of experience. They can confuse me. The jarring sensation comes from gender-discordant notes that are all over the map. In their phrasing and inflection, in physical cues, and in their emotional reactions.

Examples instantly come to mind, most clearly in situations that provide the sort of contrast I described in the OP. Other patients in my doctors office versus the women who work there and my doctor herself, who is post op. Mixed groups. Even random strangers. With this last example I can't be entirely sure, of course, but particularly recall a day when I encountered two different trans people within a few minutes. I easily read both of them. But one of them was clearly a woman, the other was… Trans.

I have met very few younger trans people. To Kathryn's point, I expect that those whom I have met therefore exhibit deeper and broader learned behaviors than would otherwise be the case. But is that what I'm picking up on? I'm not sure.

[arbon]

I notice it to. Some, quite a few, are very hard for me to see as women, even though I don't really see them as men either. But others (pre and post op) I can't not think of them as women.

The great majority of trans men I know I can't think of them as anything other then men (2 exceptions), a much higher percentage then the trans woman.

I'm very self centered - I compare myself to others, I wonder how they see me, what vibes I give people. Probably the vibe I give is of a struggling trans woman still discovering who she is.

[Marleena]

I think the postop women exude confidence since they are congruent and have done their RLE. That might be a big part of it, not sure. Preops are usually struggling and lacking that confidence. They will be on edge and less sure of themselves.

I decided NOT to present as female during my first endo appointment because I was not secure in my presentation. My endo runs a fertility clinic and I just didn't want to stress those couples anymore than they already were. It turned out to be a good decision as I was the only TS woman there.

So yeah I would definitely be one of those disconnects you mention.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

My life was forever changed when after months of therapy I was invited to a small dinner with 4 fully transitioned trans women...2 "passed", 2 didn't... their appearance varied from attractive to downright creepy(sorry..truth)...

I experienced a connection I never felt before...the conversation, the advice, the female ENERGY, it was all there regardless of their appearance...I didn't get any male vibe all from them even though there were clear remnants of it..
I can easily distinguish in my own mind the difference between having an appearance , voice or body language with "maleness" vs the idea that the person really is male...I don't know exactly why...

Up until that point, I had really only met crossdressers and transgender type people, and I had met MANY of them.... I knew one of these women well, the others it was a first meeting, but I just couldn't get out of my mind how "normal" it felt to be included in that group, and how I had NEVER experienced that feeling before..


BTW....they all told me not to transition unless I absolutely had too, but they also seemed to understand that I had too...
+++

I can also recall one of my first lectures as Kaitlyn.. I had this wonderful connecting experience where I was talking about everything I went through...HRT, electrolysis, srs, ffs...family and work issues....and how all of that was for just one thing ...
to live as a woman and be accepted as just a woman...I was kind of disavowing the hole stereotypical draggy image... I was wearing jeans and tshirt and sneakers... at one point as I looked at the crowd one of the women made eye contact with me and it just melted my heart because it was so obviously a smile and connection that she accepted me and wanted to me to know it...its not easily describable in words, but it was very powerful....the guys stared at me like..."can you believe she had her dick cut off??!?!?!!"
+++++++
The transmen I've met have all been wonderful...their voice and appearance are totally male...the only thing I've noticed (but I had to look for it) was some sweetness and tenderness in communication that I frankly don't experience in most men

I think reine makes an excellent point...there really are no crossdresser women..especially cd women that identify as ts but are not... its exactly the opposite for gm's....
One reason I post on cd.com is that prior to my transition I was completely immersed in the tg/cd scene...I had dozens of good friends, and easily 100 acquaintances... MANY of them said they were ts but they said it this way..
"someday, I think i'm gonna go all the way" and "if......x/y/x happens and after p/d/q happens.....i'll go all the way"..... only one person in that whole system of friends has transitioned...and one is now in therapy to transition...and w/o any hyperbole I knew it..
I could easily tell that my pal Dusty was going to transition, and I would tease my other friend about how she was "screwed" and i'd see her in the operating room someday...

all this is to say that the opposite of disconnects is connects...and I bet lots of us have experienced different versions of the same connections I experienced..

[LeaP]

... all this is to say that the opposite of disconnects is connects...and I bet lots of us have experienced different versions of the same connections I experienced..

Yes, and this point was permanently nailed when I met my physician. I had briefly met other TS, but she was the first with whom I had any substantive interaction. It was surreal, almost like seeing myself in a psychological mirror. Instant connection.

So many connections these days. I get the sweetest smiles these days from women. Somehow I've lost my threatening aspect. Conversely, I get odd looks from men, sometime wondering, occasionally outright puzzled.

[stefan37]

Women in general are much more open and exude warmth. I often get smiles and engage in conversations with woman. Males look at me derogatorily or with disdain. I almost never have males engage me in conversation if they do not know me. Many just walk by with a look of disgust. It would make sense there is a difference between post ops and those pre ops that have been living rle for a while vs pre ops that have just started living openly or are not that far in. I have a lot of years of male socialization to shed. I thrived in a male world, made a terrific living and built a successful contracting business in a male dominated centric environment. My physiology unfortunately is male it will be a while before I have the means to alter it. In the meantime I do the best I can and have to deal with whatever transpires.

Part of my success even tho I am gendered male is I have owned what I am doing and I exude that confidence I am doing the right thing. Meeting many transwoman resonates with me and the struggles we need to overcome to reach our goals. At some point in the future and I do not know when that may be I will hopefully integrate into society and leave the trans label behind. I feel connected to those in-transition or those that have in a way I do not with cross dresers.

[Badtranny]

As always Kaitlyn has inspired me.

Let me explain what I mean by the 'disconnect' between how someone looks and how they make you feel in a very personal way. I have been chronicling my transition on this board and I've written quite a bit about how difficult it has been for me to accept that I'm not passing as well as I'd hoped I would. I had an enormous amount of FFS work done before I went full-time and it was largely a disappointment because I was still only passing roughly half the time. It has been a struggle and since the nature of my work is so front facing, every day brought a new test.

It's just the luck of the draw that I have a face and body that was not ideal for feminizing. Bad roll of the genetic dice if you will. So it's been an interesting couple of years but I have learned something very interesting about 'passing'. I was experiencing the phenomena of this 'disconnect' first hand. It was not unusual for women especially to read me quickly, but then something weird happened. After conversation began their demeanor would begin to shift completely. I could literally feel them opening up and dropping their defenses. On more than one occasion after I was forced to admit my past, due to the nature of my business, (one lie would lead to another so why start) I have had women say "Oh, you know, I thought so but then I wasn't sure". I've heard that exact comment almost verbatim maybe a dozen times now. It always makes me feel wonderful obviously, but it also makes me wonder why exactly. Why did I not pass at first glance, yet then sort of pass? My voice is not that great, though it's not that bad, but passing up close and personal AFTER being read initially must be the result of something more than an okay voice.

I think it's intangible. I think I make immediate connections with women because my spirit is feminine in a way that transcends any earthly trappings of femininity. They accept me as one of them because I am. My transition has done nothing, and I mean nothing except scrub away what would cause that disconnect between what I look like and how I feel. Finally having the girlfriends that I dreamed of having as a kid has brought me a joy that completely eclipses every bit of pain that I've experienced in this transition.

Some of you know that I've just returned from a second round of FFS and I'm happy to report that this one has done the trick. I am very satisfied with the results and my days of not passing are finally behind me. Even though I would have preferred to have this result in the beginning, I can honestly say I'm glad I didn't. Life tends to give you what you need, and I think I needed to learn that particular lesson.

[Debglam]

I know I've told this story before but I believe it goes to the heart of what the OP was asking, at least by analogy.

I worked with a woman a number of years ago who if you looked at a picture of her you would say that she was objectively unattractive. However, in her presence it was a completely different feeling. When near her you almost felt like you were in the presence of a movie star! It was uncanny. She had such inner beauty that it just radiated from her! I still don't know why, it wasn't what she said or how she was dressed, it just WAS!

I have been around enough trans women, CD's to post-op women, and there are some that I just KNOW are women. It IS an intangible, not related to looks or appearance IMHO that just exists. I can't explain it. I would argue that failure to see that in all instances is more related to "filters" the viewer is putting up than to how the viewed actually "appears."

I have also met some women who have a hard time seeing the "woman" they project from within even though those around her CAN see her.

Maybe this is related or maybe it isn't but I have learned that the happier you are in your own skin, the "better" other people and things look! :-)

Deb

[Dawn cd]

I just have to say, as a cd listening to this conversation, that it comes across as warm, thoughtful and truthful. It is a privilege for me to eavesdrop a conversation among a bunch of smart women.

[LeaP]

...I would argue that failure to see that in all instances is more related to "filters" the viewer is putting up than to how the viewed actually "appears."

I have also met some women who have a hard time seeing the "woman" they project from within even though those around her CAN see her. ...

What you are saying regarding filters makes sense - I just can't decide exactly what the issue is in my case. I have some candidates, like the thoughts on trans identity articulated earlier, but nothing certain.


I just have to say, as a cd listening to this conversation, that it comes across as warm, thoughtful and truthful. It is a privilege for me to eavesdrop a conversation among a bunch of smart women.

Thank you. That's a nice comment in this section from the CD contingent. I wish there were more such.

Misty, I'm happy your second set of procedures yielded what you were looking for and that which was disconnected is coming together so nicely.

[Kimberly Kael]

Most of the trans women, on the other hand, just sort of resonated with me as opposed to coming off as women per se. The contrast in how I experienced the trans men vs trans women was interesting because it struck me that it is harder for me to see the woman in (pre-transition) trans women than it is the man in trans men.

It's definitely an interesting phenomenon, but it's not necessarily universal. As you hinted later in your post, there's definitely some aspect of seeing doubts about your own right to womanhood when looking at another MTF trans individual. In some ways, the more confident you are in your own place in society, the easier it is to accept others. Even in retrospect, how I remember trans women I've met in the past has changed as I pursued my own transition.

FTM individuals, on the other hand, don't exactly remind us of ourselves. I actually find more common ground emotionally with the few I've spent time around, presumably because they were socialized as women and often have roots in the lesbian community, but their experience is dramatically different in other ways. Testosterone starts a very effective one-way journey that establishes a lot of the social cues we use. Hormone therapy works wonders for them in that regard. On the other hand, surgical techniques are far more compelling from our side of the equation.


I take it the ratio of transmen to transwomen was very small. If not, then this blows what I'm about to say.

Statistics on the transgender population are notoriously unreliable since they're almost entirely self-reported. They're also influenced a lot by the differences in modern gender roles where the masculine role is, in many ways, much more narrowly defined. So there's little or no need for an FTM cross-dressing subculture. That said, anything I've ever read that did approach research on the subject showed a lot more parity between FTM and MTF gender identities than I would have guessed. There's a huge FTM convention in Seattle every year, as large or larger than anything I'm familiar with in the MTF space.

[kellycan27]

The more comfortable I am in my life.. The more disconnected to other transsexuals I've become. I work, live and play in the mainstream.. That is where life is to me.

[Kathryn Martin]

The more comfortable I am in my life.. The more disconnected to other transsexuals I've become. I work, live and play in the mainstream.. That is where life is of me.

This could not possibly more true for me as well.

[LeaP]

Kimberly, you make some excellent points.

You also made a perceptive comment about how I feel about the "claim on womanhood." In short, I don't claim it. I was neither reared nor socialized as a girl and woman. Finding a fundamental female identity does not translate into instant womanhood, to my way of thinking. At best I can say is that what might have been was essentially dead-ended in early adolescence. Asserting the right to openly own my identity would allow it to grow (or integrate) into womanhood, but nothing short of that would. I'm not suggesting that this needs years or decades. After all, as adults, we can leverage a full life experience that can be brought to bear on this.

Your comments on trans men in your second paragraph gave me a lot to think about. Thanks for the contribution.

[KellyJameson]

Have you ever met a feminine man or masculine woman? What makes a feminine man or masculine woman?

Is there such a thing as a man or woman independent of subjective experience or is it always defined subjectively?

There seems to be an active energy that transcends physical appearance and behavior where you "feel" their gender but is this universally experienced or only subjectively?

Have you ever met a woman who did not feel like a woman or a man who did not feel like a man?

In my opinion gender happens in the brain and it goes beyond even how the individual consciously identifies where gender is the subconscious expression of self so you express a self that others experience but you do not necessarily see it because you are just being you.

I think often others know our gender before we do but they do not remark on it because it is either unremarkable so they do not notice it or so remarkable they do not understand because it is outside their scope of reference.

[groove67]

This thread really upsets me. Are we not sisters here for each other. Yes cd are another case but a trans woman in transition derserves our total backing. I am very lucky pass totally as a woman living dressing that way for over three years and love ever day of it, however if we have sisters that do not pass well then we do not support them wow that is just not what i thought this site was about. Let s not be a bunch of bitches and we are at times lets support ou fellow sisters in their jounry even if they do not fit the womnhood part. They are brave women that want to be accepted as women just as us that are more lucky to pass . So i ask that we all support our fellow trans women and men 100%.

[LeaP]

This thread really upsets me. ....

WHAT are you talking about?

[Badtranny]

This thread really upsets me. .

Please re-post the comments that you consider to be un-supportive. Don't selectively edit, post the entire comment so we can all see and understand your point.

[Kathryn Martin]

To Kathryn's point, I expect that those whom I have met therefore exhibit deeper and broader learned behaviors than would otherwise be the case. But is that what I'm picking up on? I'm not sure.

These things are so subtle sometimes. But they are like a picture frame that does not sit perpendicular to the floor or ceiling. It diminishes the beauty or aesthetic pleasure for those that perceive. As you say it is phrasing, inflection, physical cues and emotional cues. Most of all it is in what I describe to myself as "survival behaviors". Explicit, implicit or perceived threats to a persons "status" is met differently by women and men. Threats is meant as for instance a challenge to ones views, a disagreement over a point made in conversation. Or it could be the displeasure over what someone is wearing, the height of the person or a projecting voice. But physically discordant notes are not at the heart of it. Because women do come in all shapes and sizes. Inflection, rhythm and phrasing are much more jarring because they reveal an emotional content and the emotional and intellectual approach to a "threat" as described above can be so jarring that it disturbs.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Over time I have got to a point where IF OTHER PEOPLE feel a disconnect FROM me... it doesn't matter, and I don't notice it. I know this for a fact because I have not felt like I had this effect on any person in the last two years

.. is it possible that not one of them felt this disconnect?? I don't care...and that's my point...I literally don't... my physical presentation has a lot to do with that..but living as a true person and the passage of time(and the learning that only happens over time) had a lot to do with it too.

[LeaP]

I think the disconnect is at its height when, as Misty originally said, one starts meeting other TS and, therefore, knows. It comes from expectation of one gender and being confronted by the cues of the other.

(I'll note here that none of the FtM attendees at the recent meeting were dressed. I had, in fact, just come from work, so arrived business casual. The meeting is called "Come As You Are" ...)

But the comment about subtlety got me thinking, as did Kaitlyn's comment on how SHE is perceived. My experience, as far as how I'm perceived, is that I'm perceived initially as 100% guy ... not a guy's guy type, by any measure, but guy nonetheless. Over time, people pick up differences. In months, occasionally weeks, I will get comments in private. The most common by far is simply that I'm different. But also that I think like a woman, that I'm easy to talk to, that only women notice or comment on something I've commented about, etc. The comments are invariably from women. I have never heard anything like that from a man, which I find interesting. Not once.

So this is indeed subtle, founded on a million small things and interactions. But expectations play a huge part. What we project onto others creates a bias that is incredibly hard to break through. It doesn't help, of course, that we (I) continue to send out male cues.

I'm in a new job. And I've come on strong and, if prior feedback is applicable, probably seem intimidating. I dominated a senior staff meeting yesterday and the other managers seemed a bit cowed, though they've been there for years. (All male.) Yet already, on MY team, the women are energized! I'm getting drive-bys already and thanks for various things. I have no illusions about them perceiving anything female about me at this point, but they appear to be responding to something at a gut level.

I've also felt some conflict over how I'm (once again, deliberately) projecting myself. It seems an opportunity to emerge, but in truth, I don't entirely know what that means in terms of behavior and don't want to create yet another artificial persona. It evokes the familiar feeling of being an empty vessel and is doubtless contributing to the mild depression I've been in lately.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

i think lea you are experience ALOT and overthinking it a little...I like to say let the chips fall... keep doing what you are doing, feeling what you are feeling.. its all good personal growth and i hope you quickly learn that you can cope with the downer feelings better without getting depressed about it..

as far as the women in your company my experience is that they having some kind of gut connection with you that sets you apart from most men....although genderless, they are reflections of your true nature nonetheless

[ErinSassyPants]

I have been thinking abouit how I appear to others. Do they perceive a disconnect? How do they see me? A couple of days ago my gynecological physician tried to reassure me that I looked so much like a woman, in face and skin quality, for example that I would not get any benefits from real HRT, (versus the leakage from topical use now), in what he regarded its main or only benefits. I argued for the psychological benefits but he ignores them. He also found my voice good and of course my hair is more natural now I no longer wear a wig -- Thanks Emma, (my new hairdresser). But no guy seems attracted to me these days, and as Frances says, that is an important sort of feedback. Maybe I shall try to get a video made of myself and post it. Frances has met me face-to-face, but that was a long time ago, compared to how much has happened since -- an awful lot of water has passed under thebridge since then as they say.

A HUGE part of attraction is smell, I would imagine that HRT would change your smell and that would make it more likely men would be attracted to you.

Now that I think about it maybe smell is part of the disconnect. Our brains do take in all of those signs and signals everyone has mentioned even when we don't realize it but smell I think is even more deep down in our subconscious.

[MysticLady]

A HUGE part of attraction is smell, I would imagine that HRT would change your smell and that would make it more likely men would be attracted to you.


A GG's intuition, I love it. I never thought of that. I guess that's why I can't live w/o them. I'm very happy that a GG is here in this forum addressing issues. Who else to learn to be a woman from than from a woman herself. Thanks Erin for your input.

[LeaP]

The extent of scent (pheromones) effects in humans are contested and have only really been studied recently. See:

http://www.macalester.edu/psychology/whathap/UBNRP/pheromone10/human%20pheromones.html

[Badtranny]

I'm very happy that a GG is here in this forum addressing issues. Who else to learn to be a woman from than from a woman herself. Thanks Erin for your input.

Well that's offensive. I think the last thing on my mind is 'learning how to be a woman'. What is a woman going to teach me exactly? How to act like her? I have dozens of female friends and I promise you there is/was no learning curve.

The TS experience is not one of learning but of shedding. We don't need 'lady lessons' thanks.

Now, to Erin's very good point about smell. It's a simple yet brilliant observation that I honestly hadn't thought of in this context. My smell HAS absolutely changed over the last couple of years. That may have a lot to do with my earlier comments about close contact overriding the initial suspicion. Very interesting.

[Kathryn Martin]

A HUGE part of attraction is smell, I would imagine that HRT would change your smell and that would make it more likely men would be attracted to you.

I think it goes both way actually. I really agree with what you say for a number of reasons. A man has to smell right to be attractive to me, and I don't mean aftershave. I also know what you mean in terms of the disconnect. Smell is so subtle (not body odor which frankly just stinks) but the effluvia of smell bodies envelop themselves in which animals pick up immediately. Cats can smell when you are sick or even just have pain. We have four and every one of them have changed their behavior towards me since I transitioned and more significantly so since I had SRS. It is one of the "jarrs" that occur when all of your senses say the person is female but they just don't smell right. And no amount of perfume can change that. Thank you for raising this.

[ErinSassyPants]

Who else to learn to be a woman from than from a woman herself. Thanks Erin for your input.

You're very welcome for the input, but I'm with Badtranny on this. You do not learn how to be a woman. You can learn all of the crap that society teaches women they are supposed to do to prove their womanness but that is not about being a woman. A woman simply is. She doesn't have to dress or act any certain way, she doesn't have to have a vagina or breasts or be able to have children or be attractive or involved with a man.

When I say I am a woman. That's it. I AM. It is a state of being, the rest is just window dressing.

Now I understand that in order to have people interact with you in a way that matches how you feel inside that many people work to present as female. I respect that, but that is not about learning how to "be a woman" that is learning how to make our messed up society buy into what you already are.

LeaP, that may be the case in regards to scientific study on pheromones, but pheromones are only one part of how smell interacts with our perceptions of people. We are animals and animals use their sense of smell to learn things about each other.

Badtranny, my smell changes during different parts of my cycle so I'm sure that HRT would change your scent significantly.

Kathryn, absolutely! I once knew a man online and felt no attraction to him. The moment I met him I suddenly wanted him badly. It was totally smell. There was another man that I knew online who I was attracted to from talking with him online and on the phone and when I opened the door to him in person I knew in that moment that I could never be attracted to him again because he smelled wrong to me. He was still attractive to the eye, and other people were attracted to him but I had trouble being too close to him.

[Kimberly Kael]

You're very welcome for the input, but I'm with Badtranny on this. You do not learn how to be a woman. You can learn all of the crap that society teaches women they are supposed to do to prove their womanness but that is not about being a woman. A woman simply is.

Absolutely. There isn't a right or wrong way to be, so there's no learning required. In many cases that even true of the environmental cues women are exposed to, like advertisers trying to set unrealistic expectations about body shapes, etc. That's all something I was exposed to growing up, so I've internalized a lot of that nonsense as well.

That's not quite the same as there being nothing to learn. What I've learned from other women, more than anything else, is what it was like to be raised as a woman. Some of those lessons are really valuable how that I'm finally being treated as one. Suddenly lessons about being aware of surroundings and how to safe when you appear vulnerable were invaluable. As was learning about ways in which I no longer wield a form of privilege that was previously invisible to me. It helped prepare me for the first car I bought as a woman, which was a shockingly unfamiliar experience. So I don't need the rest of womankind to teach me how to belong, but I do benefit from listening all the same.

[ErinSassyPants]

Fantastic points! I remember arguing with a friend of mine who was going through transition about her safety at night out alone in the city. I felt like I had really important information she needed if she was going to go out presenting as a woman. Also, there are tips on how to deal with living without that privilege.

[Debglam]

What we project onto others creates a bias that is incredibly hard to break through.

This is HUGE IMHO and way beyond trans.


I think the last thing on my mind is 'learning how to be a woman'. . .The TS experience is not one of learning but of shedding. We don't need 'lady lessons' thanks.

Agree and a pet peeve of mine. As others have suggested, what does "being a woman" or "feeling like a woman" etc. even mean? Look, no two women are the same. Would a single mom on welfare and a trophy wife describe being a woman the same way? A black and a white woman? An American and an Costa Rican woman?

There have to be a million ways to "be a woman." You are women just by being who you are IMHO. Now, there ARE socialization aspects of womanhood that you can learn, that most GG's have learned growing up.

[MysticLady]

Well that's offensive.
The TS experience is not one of learning but of shedding. We don't need 'lady lessons' thanks.


Hello Melissa Hobbes Cherry. I apologize if this offended you. It was not my intention. I read at times how some of us desire to be a complete woman and my thoughts were, that a GG may assist in helping those with that struggle by offering suggestions. I never meant it too be offensive. BTW.



Kathryn, absolutely! I once knew a man online and felt no attraction to him. The moment I met him I suddenly wanted him badly. It was totally smell. There was another man that I knew online who I was attracted to from talking with him online and on the phone and when I opened the door to him in person I knew in that moment that I could never be attracted to him again because he smelled wrong to me. He was still attractive to the eye, and other people were attracted to him but I had trouble being too close to him.

I agree, likewise for a woman. If her scent is off, then it's like same ol, same ol. When the scent is appealing, then she becomes interesting.:D

[LeaP]

... A woman simply is. She doesn't have to dress or act any certain way, she doesn't have to have a vagina or breasts or be able to have children or be attractive or involved with a man.

When I say I am a woman. That's it. I AM. It is a state of being, the rest is just window dressing.

Now I understand that in order to have people interact with you in a way that matches how you feel inside that many people work to present as female. I respect that, but that is not about learning how to "be a woman" that is learning how to make our messed up society buy into what you already are. ...

I agree with this - to a point. This is a common statement made by cisgendered people, based on having the luxury of not dealing with a gender/sex dissonance. It's window dressing because you can ignore it. If you couldn't, I assure you that you would likely feel their lack quite keenly. This is deeper and more fundamental than what the world is reflecting back at you.

[DebbieL]

There are some wonderful insights in this thread. Thank you all for your wonderful contributions!

I have always considered myself "one of the girls". Until I was 5, I thought all I had to do to become a girl was to let my hair grow longer. I would tell my mom I didn't want a haircut because I wanted to be a girl. Then I discovered I was trapped in a boy's body. I tried to pretend to be a boy, but I wasn't very good at it, over the years, they called me names; Sissy, Fairy, Queen, Queer, Faggot, and worse. The names usually came with violence, often severe violence.

To avoid the violence, I learned to pretend better. I took theater classes, acting classes, voice and diction classes, stage movement classes, singing lessons, and presentation classes. Even so, I came across as "phony" or deceptive.

I tried to talk to parents, doctors, and therapists, including psychologists, therapists, and even a couple of psychiatrists about wanting to be a girl, starting at about 7 years old. The REFUSED to even TALK about the issue, and I was told that I should not bring it up again. I tried talking with my father, and he told me that he had taken a test that indicated he was 75% female. Even at that time, at 30+ years old, he was still getting harassed at work. Wearing a pink tie could cost him any chance at a promotion for years. I tried to talk to my mom as well, the first time when I was 6. She told me she was a tom-boy growing up, but told me that I could never be a girl and shouldn't talk about it. I didn't know it at the time, but everybody was trying to protect me from the "treatment" used to treat transsexuals that included electro-shock, and if that didn't work, lobotomy. One time mom even yelled "do you want to be a vegetable for the rest of your life!!??". She broke down crying after she said it.

When I was 33, I finally talked to a therapist who immediately realized that I was transsexual. He told me that I SHOULD transition, and that if I didn't, I'd probably end up committing suicide. He referred me to another therapist who coached me in getting Real Life Experience in a safe and sane way. My biggest problem was that after losing weight and getting practice, I was too sexy for my own good. Because I wore short skirts, heels, satin blouses, and breasts that were a bit large, even for my 40 inch chest, both men and women would look at me, and the extra attention would result in them realizing that I still had male characteristics.

For a variety of reasons, mainly to avoid consequences I wasn't willing to accept (loss of career, loss of children and visitation rights, loss of income,...), I stopped transition for many years.

It 55, I began to consider transition again. I started seeing a therapists and getting Real Life Experience. But this time my SO wanted to help as well. She told me that I had to "stop dressing like a skank". It took some time, but I began to dress more age appropriate and situation appropriate. In a very short period of time, I was just a woman. In fact, even when I was in "boy mode", I would frequently get more stares and reactions as a boy than I did as a girl. I'd get stares in the restroom, or leaving the men's room, men entering would see me and literally go back to check the entrance to make sure that they weren't in the wrong place.

There is no question that I am more productive, happier, and even socialize better as Debbie than I have EVER done as Rex. Even at work, where I was still trying to present as male, co-workers were observing that I wasn't a typical man. When I told a few of them that I was transgendered, they nodded and said "I thought so". At this point, about the only male clothing I ever wear are "pup tent" shirts that hide give-away bulges. I now have a driver's license that lets be get past TSA as a girl (M on the gender marker and real name, but femme picture).

I'm still 24/7 yet, but I'm back to 128 (128 out of 168 hours /week as woman). I usually dress appropriate to my age and the situation, and can easily live my life that way in most situations. I'm still a bit wary of long lines in the ladies room, but when there is not an obvious line, I don't have any problems. These days, I get more stares and remarks when I try to use the men's room.

A cross-dresser experiences themselves as a man pretending to be a woman, and often they are inclined to dress in idealized clothing to look more sexy and/or beautiful. Often, they will wear hosiery when it's too hot or shorts that are too short, or skirts that are too tight, because it matches the look they would like to have.

A transsexual who has been getting real life experience quickly learns to "blend", to wear what's appropriate to her situation and age. Shorts might be OK for a hot summer day, but even then it's not ****ty or butt-crack tight. She has learned the same things that teen-age girls learn by the time they are in their mid teens. She has just learned it a bit later. We ARE women, and we begin to express that more authentically and appropriately, sometimes with less effort.

[ErinSassyPants]

I agree with this - to a point. This is a common statement made by cisgendered people, based on having the luxury of not dealing with a gender/sex dissonance. It's window dressing because you can ignore it. If you couldn't, I assure you that you would likely feel their lack quite keenly. This is deeper and more fundamental than what the world is reflecting back at you.

I do try to be aware of the luxury of having been born in a body that I feel at home in. I do my best to be aware of the privileges it has given me and the unbelievable gift it is. I spend time quite often (especially years ago while supporting a friend through transition and these days spending time on this forum) being grateful that this is one struggle I don't have to go through personally. Of course I will never know what it is to not be cis, but I am not sure if you understand what I'm saying in that paragraph.

Maybe you do and I'm the one whose confused but I want to be clear that I am in no way saying that what feels important to each person for themselves is not vitally important or even that the way the the world is reflected back at us is not extremely important. What I'm saying is that it is about your interactions in the world, not your gender. Connections and how we are treated in the world are HUGE, I don't devalue that. Our connections to the world often make or break us quite literally.

I'm just saying that it does no one justice to attach requirements on womanhood (or manhood). It devalues all of our experiences of ourselves.

It may be interesting to note that I've had a similar discussion with several friends who were unable to have children and got the message from the world that they were not "real" women because they could not have children. Being told I was infertile was heartbreaking enough, if I had also attached my womanhood to my ability to have children it would have been soul killing as it was for some of those women.

I can only imagine that being trans is difficult enough without having to then try to be a woman(or a man) in the way that others say you should be doing it or have it all invalidated. So, that's what I'm saying.

Also, since I'm rambling on and on I will go ahead and mention I don't think you have to fit womanhood or manhood. If you experience yourself as both or neither, or something else entirely I accept your experience of yourself. Society might be a bitch about it, but I won't.

I do know I'm overwhelmingly blessed in too many ways to count. Being born a woman in a woman's body is only the beginning. Being born a woman in a woman's body in the united states to a literate non alcoholic not physically or sexually abusive white middle class family doesn't even begin to fill out the list of my blessings but I do try to count them endless as they are.

[Rianna Humble]

Lea, the way that I read Erin's words was quite different. She is not saying that our experience is window dressing, she is replying to the statement from a cross-dresser that she could teach us how to be women by stating that we already are women and have nothing to learn about how to be.

Yes, we experience a lot of torment due to our birth defect, but I do not read anything in Erin's words that seeks to deny or to trivialise that. Rather I read a wonderful life-affirming confirmation that we are already women and that if we have anything to learn at all it is how to make others reflect that back to us.

[Beth-Lock]

I never realized that I might not smell right. Now, how do I approach anyone and find a tactful way to ask them what I smell like? Alternatively, how could I tell myself, like for sure? Oh, dear!

[Kathryn Martin]

I'm just saying that it does no one justice to attach requirements on womanhood (or manhood). It devalues all of our experiences of ourselves.

It may be interesting to note that I've had a similar discussion with several friends who were unable to have children and got the message from the world that they were not "real" women because they could not have children. Being told I was infertile was heartbreaking enough, if I had also attached my womanhood to my ability to have children it would have been soul killing as it was for some of those women.

I have trouble following you with this and your previous comment. Of course our disabilities do not define who we are, they are just disabilities. I am grateful that you have raised this because you have put your finger into an eternal wound and an eternal fallacy of being born disabled in the way we are.

The analogy to women who are barren cuts closer to home than you might think. One of the pivotal moments in my life was the realization that I was barren. Up until the age of about 12 I fervently believed that as I grew up my outie would turn into an innie, and that I would be just like any other girl. Puberty was the worst time of my life as I vacillated between hope that things would turn out right and despair over what actually happened. It was the slow realization that I was a freak. In addition to that the realization that I was barren, would be childless, became unbearable. It is almost impossible to describe the assault on our very soul that inability to conceive, bear and birth children can have. Living in a world of self accusation, guilt, punishment until the soul is killed. For those that are truly transsexual add to that the fact that not one person will even acknowledge that we own these feelings because we are seen as men until we transition.

Of course I am not defined by my disabled (male) body, by my inability to conceive and bear a child yet having a healthy body able to communicate and to bear children is so central to all of our understanding not because it defines us but because it is the foundation of understanding our self.

I am glad you brought this up, this kind of conversation helps so much.

[Angela Campbell]

I did not have the disconnect of not being able to carry a baby and give birth, but...I did have 3 children. I raised them and the disconnect comes when so many in our society do not see the man as a true parent as they do the Mother. Even though I was the primary caregiver for all three I was treated as if I was a possible molester or at best just a source of funds for the children. This is commonly done by the medical and the legal professions the most. Schools to a lesser extent. If I took one of them to the emergency room they would shoo me out of the room so they could check to see if I had molested the child. They didn't even try to hide the contempt that I was not a woman. Or at the time did not present as one.

I was the one who was there when they were sick, when they screamed in the middle of the night or when they got hurt. I was the one who changed 80% of the diapers, Fed them in the middle of the night, and I was the one who was told the mother has the absolute right to have custody of them in a divorce unless the child was above the age of 14 and then they could choose which parent to live with. The two of mine who were above 14 did choose to live with me and the court gave the younger one to the mother automatically. With me paying her the child support. I got no support for the two I had custody of. The lawyers told me there was no possible way I could win in a custody battle.

So it hurt me intensly to be treated as less of a parent than I really was.

[GBJoker]

I am pushing my brain to its limit in computing power to understand what is going on in this thread.

I have never met or even seen a TG person in ... person. But I treat every one at first with how their appearance indicates to me they wish to be treated. After a while, I blur in how I feel they deserve to be treated. The only exceptions being when the person has informed to act differently around them, at which time, I will immediately do so.

[LeaP]

I think most people are inclined to do the same. At our best, we treat others as we would like to be treated. Or perhaps their mothers drilled polite social behavior into them such that they keep their mouths shut, regardless of their thoughts.

That doesn't mean we don't continue to experience these kinds of disconnects. Even some natal women and natal men are misgendered on occasion. As social animals, we are highly sensitive to many, many subtle cues. Sometimes the smallest thing is sufficient.

Cue sensitivity seems to rise and fall situationally and with time of life. Children (teens, especially) are notably hyper-sensitive to gender cues. Spouses become sensitized to exquisitely subtle personal cues. I believe the "wisdom" of the elderly is mostly due to heightened sensitivity to emotional cues, and responding with empathy.

But all of us gender people instantly, constantly, and unconsciously all of the time. Even people with face blindness perceive gender. And we set ourselves up to respond appropriately, also unconsciously, both socially and psychologically, regardless of how we ultimately behave.

Try this sometime. Sit in a mall and watch people go by. Don't concentrate, don't focus on anyone, and don't think. Watch. You will instantly gender every last person, probably with 100% accuracy. Then concentrate on individuals, studying their features, and ask whether it is possible they could be the opposite sex. I guarantee you that under those conditions you will see many people who actually look more androgynous than you think. You will have broken the instinctive gendering for a moment. But the exercise also will illustrate its strength.

[bas1985]

Try this sometime.

very useful exercise. From the moment in which I started to study myself, my look, my possibility of transition, I see these possible "androgynous" people quite often. Usually women, I look casually at them and I ask myself "Could it be that this woman is not Genetic?". And, yes, this question does illuminate me on the concept of "passing", "blending", "self confidence".

The more I see the distinction between sex and gender outside... the more I see my internal disconnection. The outside mirrors the inside, as always.

[MysticLady]

I agree with this - to a point. This is a common statement made by cisgendered people, based on having the luxury of not dealing with a gender/sex dissonance. It's window dressing because you can ignore it. If you couldn't, I assure you that you would likely feel their lack quite keenly. This is deeper and more fundamental than what the world is reflecting back at you.

Hi Lea, I believe I understand what you are saying. It would be easy for me to tell a FtM to just be as I am. There are other "factors" that I'm not dealing with as he is. Thanks for the insight.:)