Is "Going Stealth" Good Or Bad?

[Ariamythe]

This link found its way into my Twitter feed today and I couldn't resist bringing it here for a discussion:

Curing the Stockholm syndrome of “stealth”: ending sympathetic responses toward cis gatekeeping (http://cisnormativity.wordpress.com/2013/07/24/curing-the-stockholm-syndrome-of-stealth/)

For the TL;DR crowd, the core of the argument in the link is that the idea of "going stealth" for transgender folks is a concept forced upon transitioning women and men by "cis gatekeepers," i.e. therapists and such, who felt that the only way to be a successful transsexual is by not being viewed as transsexual -- i.e. not being read. In other words, the successful transsexual gets to pretend they were always that way. Or as the article puts it: the only successful transsexuals are the ones who lie about being trans.

The article concludes:


Learning to let go of the word “stealth” as a community cannot arrive soon enough. Learning to dissociate what Williams calls “lying” from institutional brainwashing by cis gatekeepers means hastening the end of victim-blaming for trans people. By relegating the use of “stealth” to a historical artefact, we may accelerate the healing of each other by learning to respect the individual life choices we make for ourselves — choices we make without institutional coercion.

I think it's an interesting perspective. It's definitely part of the "trans and proud" movement that's been growing lately.

Personally, the idea of "going stealth" appeals to me very much, though I confess it may be for some of the reasons the article states; whether that makes it good or bad to want to go stealth, I cannot say. And since I have a lot of hurdles to jump before I could ever "go stealth" (testosterone and genetics have really had their way with me), maybe this idea of being Trans and Proud could be empowering.

What say you?

[LeaP]

I say I don't want to be trans, proud or not. That I am and always will be in one sense or another is none of anyone's business.

(Edit)

The extent to which such articles go to inject a form of identity politics into something that is essentially straightforward amazes me. It does so by conflating a number of different issues in order to subset the population, then attempts to pivot on those issues – by casting aspersion on the motives of people who are stealth on the basis of race and wealth – into advocating for a different kind of social identity. I.E., universally and permanently trans.

Why do I say that the issue is straightforward? Again, my opening statement... My identity is not trans! That stealth has a medical history arising from gatekeeper practice, that some people are disadvantaged in their ability to pass, that some don't have the means to do all the procedures they might like, etc., etc., etc., are all separate issues.

Being "trans and proud" makes about as much sense to me as being proud of having a colostomy. Fix it and get on with life. Disclosure is a personal decision and I'm fine with any given individual's choices in that regard.

[Cheyenne Skye]

Being "trans and proud" makes about as much sense to me as being proud of having a colostomy. Fix it and get on with life. Disclosure is a personal decision and I'm fine with any given individual's choices in that regard.

I totally agree with this statement. It's akin to saying I'm white and proud of it. People wouldn't take too kindly to that statement. I was born that way, just like I was born trans. It has nothing to do with my personality and how I interact with people.

[emma5410]

'Trans and proud' echoes 'gay and proud' or 'black and proud' but it is something totally different. Gay and black are likely to always be so and the proud is a statement that they are happy that way. Being trans is not the same. To me it is an affliction. You could argue that no matter what I do I will always be trans but I will prefer to think of myself as a woman. I will only be happy when that is how I am acknowledged. If people are still referring to me as trans in a few years then it will be sad.

[Kathryn Martin]

Actually stealth is what happens to you not something that you do. That is the great fallacy of the argument above. Stealth tends to happen in time unless you are on the barricades and carrying some sort of flag and relegating yourself to reliving your trans history.

I spoke to colleague (friend) of mine who told me yesterday (and I have reason to believe him) that not one person ever said even as much a word to him about me since I transitioned over two years ago. That even in my absence I am referred to by "Kathryn" or by "she". I expressed a concern over appearing in front of a judge I had never been in front of and how he would perceive me. As it turned out it was all in my head. In the end we victimize ourselves.

This topic refers quite nicely to the disconnect thread Lea posted yesterday. When you have your first seriously intimate conversation with a woman in which you share about carrying a child, birth and raising your children you know you are fully connected. And it's not a decision to be stealth it's rather a consequence of congruence, nothing more nothing less.

[Badtranny]

I submit that 'stealth' is not an option for everybody and certainly not most late transitioners.

Have you ever met a TS woman in person who positively believes she's stealth? It can almost make you cry.

I know there's a dozen broads that are going to come after me on this, but honestly there's no way to convince me outside of meeting. I live in the SF Bay, I see a lot of trannies that live perfectly normal and respectable lives. ...but they're not stealth.

P.S. I'm not trying to be mean or controversial. I just think new girls need to know that they're not magically going to blend into the scenery. It's a long uphill climb and if stealth is indeed in MY future, it's only because I've surgically altered my face and body to the limits of the technology.

[kellycan27]

Kind of hard to say.... The stealths don't usually hang out in Trans- sylvania and if they're stealth why would they admit that they were TS .. If trying to be stealthy? I'd never walk up and tell someone I was stealth if I wanted to remain .. Stealth :heehee:
How does someone achieve stealth if they running around telling people that they are?
For all we know we may be walking past, working with or talking to so someone who is stealth, but we don't know cause they're ..... Stealth. No?

[stefan37]

At my age and the fact I am transitioning in place. I highly doubt stealth would be in the cards for me. The best I can hope for is to at some point integrate as Kathryn mentioned. I try to not think too far into the future. I know where I want to be, but how I get there at this point is not exactly clear. I live each day as I can learning what I can and growing into the person I think i want to be. My wife and I are continuing to grow and in some ways our relationship is better than before. It will never be what it was. As she starts to see more of the woman in me I know i am growing in the right direction. It takes a tremendous effort to shed the socialization as a male I was exposed to for the greater majority of my life. I have no illusions and surgeries are still a ways off. My goal for the short term is to be perceived as a woman even thou I look nothing like one. I have the self confidence to put forth the effort to achieve such a goal. One day at a time.

[Rianna Humble]

For me, the conclusion that you quote devalues any positive argument that might have been made by referring to our "lifestyle choices". The fact that I am transsexual is as much a "lifestyle choice" as the fact that I am (allegedly) a member of the human race.

If some people are able to "go stealth" to the extent that they are treated by all around them as women with no reference to their now cured birth defect, then that is great. Unfortunately for me, that is not a luxury that I will ever be afforded as it seems that everything I do is susceptible to media scrutiny around the globe as I discovered when I recently tried to get my political party to select me for the next parliamentary election and that fact was reported in countries as far apart as Germany and Australia along with the fact that I am in transition. This was not even a public event, but it seems that I must now submit to it (to quote Colin Dexter's most famous creation) forever endeavour.

[LeaP]

It actually says life choices, Rianna, not lifestyle choices. I understand what you're saying. I'm not sure the bit quoted is saying quite the same thing.

That said, the quote is utter gibberish. Dissociate lying from institutional brainwashing? Really? Got to tell you, my therapist certainly isn't in the brainwashing business. Nor does she inculcate lying of any sort. But wait… The author actually recognizes that this is a historical phenomenon, so what WAS the point of making that statement? Oh - seems that the rub is the so-called lying that is now enculturated. THAT is set against a straw man - "victim blaming"! That's right, we are all victims: stealthy, white, middle class TSs who are the dupes of the legacy cis gatekeeping system, poor and minority TSs who are (what? comparatively) somehow victimized by the stealthy, even though stealth is supposedly A Bad Thing? And it's capped by another straw man - the suggestion that we do NOT respect others' choices! How many times do you have to read that each path is unique? Is that not one of THE most common words of wisdom dished out to our fellow victims - to do whatever works? This is verbal vomit.

[Ariamythe]

The extent to which such articles go to inject a form of identity politics into something that is essentially straightforward amazes me. It does so by conflating a number of different issues in order to subset the population, then attempts to pivot on those issues – by casting aspersion on the motives of people who are stealth on the basis of race and wealth – into advocating for a different kind of social identity. I.E., universally and permanently trans.

You've just defined feminist / intersectional ideology in a nutshell. :)

[Michelle.M]

Actually stealth is what happens to you not something that you do.

Well, if that's true for you then I'll respect that. But by definition one must actually takes steps to be stealthy (hence the military connotation presented in one of the supporting articles to this one). One must actually take measures to prevent disclosure of one's history or origin.


And it's not a decision to be stealth

Trans history does not bear that out. From the insistence of the gatekeepers of decades past that we conceal our identities as a condition for transition assistance to the insistence of those who value stealth that this is the way we ought to consider living, everyone who embarks on a transition has to actually make the decision as to whether this is the path to take or not.

In fact, the comments in this very thread are from people who either have made that decision, have rejected that decision or are contemplating it in one way or another.

Yeah, stealth is a decision.


it's rather a consequence of congruence, nothing more nothing less.

Again, if that's true for you then I'll respect that. But as far as I can tell that's a different thing; stealth is not the consequence of congruence. The consequence of congruence is peace. Or self-assuredness, self-esteem, happiness or the lack of a gender dissonance and all of the associated hangups and problems that go with it.


Is "Going Stealth" Good Or Bad?

Neither. It's a choice you make based on your needs, circumstances and priorities.

I began my transition with the intent to live stealth, and I did a pretty good job of it for a little over a year. Other circumstances spurred me on towards cashing that in and living a more "out" life.

The associative corollary holds true; if I had to make a decision to live more out then it follows that one would have to decide to live stealth. Whichever you do is your decision; it's not necessarily decided for you (although, as Misty points out, by virtue of our own physical limitations sometimes it is).

But it's neither good nor bad nor a necessity.

[Ariamythe]

Actually stealth is what happens to you not something that you do. That is the great fallacy of the argument above. Stealth tends to happen in time unless you are on the barricades and carrying some sort of flag and relegating yourself to reliving your trans

I both agree and disagree. Yes, in the long run, stealth is often something that just happens; but as someone in the early stages of her transition, it's also true that "going stealth" seems to be the golden ring, the ideal goal that every book, website, and therapist assumes is the "best outcome". It's the reason we are encouraged to practice our voice, study female mannerisms, learn about makeup application -- so we "pass", so we're not "read".

While I think the article goes overboard in its description of and excoriation of the idea, there's something there about the fact that "going stealh" is sort of the only acceptable outcome.

[Michelle.M]

. . . it's also true that "going stealth" seems to be the golden ring, the ideal goal that every book, website, and therapist assumes is the "best outcome".

I think you're right, in that it's a paradigm presented as the best course of action. However, I choose not to subscribe to that paradigm.


It's the reason we are encouraged to practice our voice, study female mannerisms, learn about makeup application -- so we "pass", so we're not "read".

Again, a paradigm. Personally, I do those things because it's a natural expression and also helps me to have gender congruence. I have long ago ceased worrying about being read.


While I think the article goes overboard in its description of and excoriation of the idea, there's something there about the fact that "going stealh" is sort of the only acceptable outcome.

Acceptable to whom? To carry Misty's earlier thoughts one step further, this never-ending quest for stealth as the evidence of a successful transition may in fact be counterproductive if one is less than "stealth-capable". In other words, why would anyone want to exchange gender dysphoria with another kind of dysphoria - "stealth dysphoria"?

[Kathryn Martin]

Well, if that's true for you then I'll respect that. But by definition one must actually takes steps to be stealthy (hence the military connotation presented in one of the supporting articles to this one). One must actually take measures to prevent disclosure of one's history or origin.

But as far as I can tell that's a different thing; stealth is not the consequence of congruence. The consequence of congruence is peace. Or self-assuredness, self-esteem, happiness or the lack of a gender dissonance and all of the associated hangups and problems that go with it.

Michelle, I transitioned in place so people may think how can I be stealth. Well, I did nothing to be stealth yet somehow I ended up being just that. And the strangest thing is that my social environment is now providing the stealth coating to my life. And not just those that are close. Because once you are experienced there is no past left. I don't expect you to understand, but it is what it is.

[Leah Lynn]

Perhaps, like the Sneeches, we need a machine to put stars on our bellies. Or, rather, enter the machine and exit, a 5' 5", 102 pound, girl, perfect perky boobs, a perfectly flat belly, slimmest of waists, a beautiful Brazillian Bum. Loveliest long shapely legs ending in slender ankles with cute little feet. Hair color and style optional. Then you'll be totally stealth. Or not. I'll never pass as a calender girl, but I don't need to hide who I am. Nor do I need to carry a sign declaring who/what I am.

Leah

[Michelle.M]

Michelle, I transitioned in place so people may think how can I be stealth. Well, I did nothing to be stealth yet somehow I ended up being just that.

As I said earlier, if that's true for you then I respect that. The rest of the world has to actually decide to live stealth. Everyone else has to decide not to start stories about their childhood with "When I was a boy" or to leave out certain details about their military service because they were in an all-male unit, or conceal whatever detail that would otherwise compromise their stealth.

You're living the magical post-transition dream! Bully for you!


Because once you are experienced there is no past left. I don't expect you to understand, but it is what it is.

Okaaaay . . . not sure what that means, but I'll try to wrap my simple brain around it.

[Ariamythe]

Acceptable to whom? To carry Misty's earlier thoughts one step further, this never-ending quest for stealth as the evidence of a successful transition may in fact be counterproductive if one is less than "stealth-capable".
Acceptable in general -- that is, it's the assumed acceptable outcome in the community.

But your statement above is very much reflective of the point the article was trying to make: that this assumption that going stealth is the only acceptable outcome is perhaps not only counterproductive, but downright oppressive.

[Michelle.M]

But your statement above is very much reflective of the point the article was trying to make: that this assumption that going stealth is the only acceptable outcome is perhaps not only counterproductive, but downright oppressive.

Like you, I thought the article was rather thought-provoking, and I'm glad you started this thread.

I don't think that the paradigm of stealth is oppressive, but I do think it's outdated - not as a personal means to an end, not as a survival tactic - but merely outdated as a standard for transition, as the only acceptable outcome.

I think that when we stop looking at stealth as the gold standard and as more of a personal choice then we can approach stealth in a more healthy way.

As I said, I lived stealth pretty successfully for over a year. But that doesn't mean I was flying under the radar 100% of the time. Some people had me sussed, but most didn't. Misty claims that nobody is 100% passable, and I'd agree. And when we quit worrying about that then we can devote our energy to living a successful life in our real gender instead of worrying about not being revealed.

It's not an issue now. I'm selectively out, but the group I have selected is much bigger than it once was. I will say, though, that I'm living much happier now by not having to expend the energy needed to live two realities.

[Kimberly Kael]

The core of the argument in the link is that the idea of "going stealth" for transgender folks is a concept forced upon transitioning women and men by "cis gatekeepers," (...) or as the article puts it: the only successful transsexuals are the ones who lie about being trans.

I think the article misses the fairly important point that in the context of a certain time and place, that may not be far from the truth. A successful transition is one that lets you live a rewarding life. At one point in time, and indeed in some places today, the only way that happens is if you don't attract attention. The alternative was to be unemployed, shunned socially, and risk being murdered by sexual partners should they find out.

The ability to live openly as trans something of a modern luxury. Trans awareness is something of a double-edged sword, in that a lot more people are able to read us simply because they know we exist – and in much greater numbers than most had previously assumed.


I say I don't want to be trans, proud or not. That I am and always will be in one sense or another is none of anyone's business.

Like you, I am transgender. I don't go so far as to insist that it's none of anyone's business, rather I believe it's simply irrelevant in most circumstances. That I have a transgender history is a medical curiosity like being color blind. When it is relevant, I'd rather not feel like I have to shy away from the subject. My identity is a combination of many traits: I'm a woman, a software developer, a lesbian, transgender, etc. In any given context I'm likely to introduce myself with the traits that are meaningful, and that means my trans history doesn't come up very often.

I think LGBT pride is much more about not being ashamed than making a big deal of it all the time. There's also an element of establishing visibility so that people can no longer blithely assume that everyone that counts is just like them, and we're finally starting to make headway there.


I submit that 'stealth' is not an option for everybody and certainly not most late transitioners.

That's an incredibly important point. So long as stealth is presumed to be the "one true approach" you're automatically excluding rather a lot of people.


I know there's a dozen broads that are going to come after me on this, but honestly there's no way to convince me outside of meeting. I live in the SF Bay, I see a lot of trannies that live perfectly normal and respectable lives. ...but they're not stealth.

Per my earlier point, I do think it has gotten a lot harder than it used to be, but we're also much more observant than the general public so it's tough to tell how often someone will be read even if one of us can tell at a glance. My initial assumption is that I'm easily read because I haven't pursued any of the usual cosmetic surgical options. I'm constantly surprised how many people I meet are clearly completely unaware. Just a few weekends ago I was chatting with a couple I met at a convention and after 20 minutes the subject of my wife came up. They wanted to know what state we were married in and talk about the recent Supreme Court decisions. So you never know.

The important thing from my perspective is that I'm not constantly looking over my shoulder, wondering who knows and who doesn't. I don't count on passing 100% of the time, and I don't mind bringing up my history when it's relevant. So long as people are accepting, that's all that really matters to me.

[Badtranny]

The important thing from my perspective is that I'm not constantly looking over my shoulder, wondering who knows and who doesn't. I don't count on passing 100% of the time, and I don't mind bringing up my history when it's relevant. So long as people are accepting, that's all that really matters to me.

Well I can't say that any better so I'll let it ride.

I also want to add that I don't think it's impossible to pass 100%. I just think it's nearly impossible for most, especially later transitioners. Some girls make it look easy, but they are the obvious exceptions. It IS a worthwhile goal to completely pass but one has to keep that goal in perspective and not let the pursuit of it get in the way of enjoying your life.

In regard to stealth, that's a slightly different situation because it requires passing 100% AND erasing your history. In my case, it would literally be impossible for everyone I know in a nearly 20 year career to forget who I used to be. Even if that was possible, how in the world would they forget the bombshell I dropped on them two years ago? They will ALWAYS remember I used to be a dude no matter how well I pass eventually.

I don't have one of those MIB memory zappers, so for me stealth is not an option.

[dreamer_2.0]

Stealth, I think, would be the ultimate goal. It's not because I'd try to deny being trans or try to trick people, I just want to be happy and live a relatively normal life...as a woman.

This goal, however, is probably years off for me though. Still it's a nice thought today. :)

[Jorja]

I do not like the word Stealth to describe that period that marks the end of transition and moving on with the rest of your life. I will bet a psychologist came up with the word stealth. Let’s take a look at the word Stealth for a moment. Merriam Webster Dictionary defines stealth as: 1. the act or action of proceeding furtively, secretly, or imperceptibly 2. The state of being furtive or unobtrusive. Some synonyms of stealth are clandestine, covert, furtive, hush-hush, private, sneak, sneaking, sneaky, secret.

Excuse me, I did not do anything furtively, imperceptibly, clandestine, covert, hush-hush, private, sneak, sneaking, sneaky, or in secret when I moved on from transition to living the rest of my life. I did it in the open and in front of everyone. I graduated Summa cumo laude from college and gave the commencement speech that year. I have worked for some of the most prestigious architectural firms in the USA. At one I worked my way up from the bottom to become the CEO until a health scare arose and I stepped down. After I recovered I started my own company.

It has been over 30 years since that time for me. Not once in all of those years was I asked nor was it even suspected that I may not be the woman I appear to be. No, this girl will not and did not go off with her tail between her legs and hide from the rest of humanity because I was once a transsexual. I also did not offer any clues otherwise.

So to answer your question, is Stealth good or bad? I will say:

Good if you are an airplane use in war.
Bad if you are a transsexual moving from transition to living the rest of your life as normal as possible.

Get out there and live your life to the fullest. Whatever that may entail.

[Nicole Erin]

The idea of being "stealth" sounds good but what if someone achieves it? Then what? Live life yes?
I don't even pass that great, let alone have the option of stealth. So I decided to do the best I could and go ahead and live life.
I think it would be a lot of work trying to hide the secret. Sooner or later crap comes back to haunt you.

So for "stealth", I don't talk about my gender status, I just let people think what they will.

[docrobbysherry]

So, is Stealth the same thing as Passing? Or, the exact opposite?
Not that it matters to me. I can't seem to be able to do either!

What if you're somewhere in between? Would that mean I'm Stealping? Or, Pealth?

[dreamer_2.0]

Stealth is simply being able to live a female life without anyone knowing you were born male. I suppose it would be the perfect form of passing. At least that's my understanding.

Although, Jorja made a good point (she often does :P) in that the word "stealth" is perhaps a misnomer as it carries negative, or at least, inaccurate connotations. I hadn't thought of it that way, Jorga. I actually feel a tad awkward now considering it my ultimate goal. Perhaps the wording should change to living a normal female life instead of going stealth.

[noeleena]

Hi,

Im looking at this quite differently.

If you are a female or a woman then you dont need to because of the fact your born a female & you grow into a woman.

I can only tell of myself, no i could never be stealth not posible or would ever happen, now had i been born with female facial features, then i would be telling it different again. for myself what is it that makes it possiable to be seen as a female apart from being born one ,
well the fact is some of us dont come with the facial look that is talked about or the pasability, i sure dont yet im still female like a good number of other women i know about & know of & have seen. for all accounts & purpous's we are still female just dont have what i see as a male ideal of,,,,, you look like a female,....or those of us dont. & because of that we are passed over or discarded,

so what makes the female different is it only her face, or her shape how she carry's herself & demeaner. & the way she dress's .or the ill use your male terms sexy shoes, all dolled up. flamboyent clothes, I wont go into the body side of this though most men see a female as a sex symbol.

Does it all have to be around part of what men see in a female , what about haveing babies looking after them feeding them the the cares of home & looking after thier partner , oh yes then looking sexy when the partner comes home from work .

the other side of being female is not brought up & many women / females just look like the fisher woman down the road or the washer woman. a home body if you like ,

What about those of us who do the work on the farms & many of the other work we do not so glamous then .

I come under the worker group not afraid to get stuck in & muck'e,

Im just a female thats accepted for who she is how she looks & where ever she goes's & people who dont know me look of cause they do. till they get to know me then they find im just a female born different who is a woman.

So whats all this about, stealth passing or blending in , theres no need nore will there be when you accept your self for who you are with what ever differences you or i have or how we were born. gee im so glad i was born the way i was,

...noeleena...

[Ariamythe]

I think that when we stop looking at stealth as the gold standard and as more of a personal choice then we can approach stealth in a more healthy way.

Agreed. Though the more extreme perspective of the article would go further and say that, so long as we accept the concept of going stealth at all we're somehow giving power to our gatekeepers. Insteadt, stealth should be neither a requirement NOR a choice but a total non-issue. It's one of those strange quirks of intersectional social theory: an oppressive concept is oppressive by its very existence. Even if someone chooses to live in a way where they choose not to acknowledge their trans history, they're choosing to do so because society has inherently planted in them the idea that there's something about being trans that demands hiding. "Stealth" as a label carries that oppression regardless. Feminists in general tend to be very big on labels.


And when we quit worrying about that then we can devote our energy to living a successful life in our real gender instead of worrying about not being revealed.

That should indeed be the gold standard: to be able to stop worrying about it and live your life. That's not stealth; that's self-actualization ... or acceptance of the absurd, if you're a fan of Camus.

[Katelyn B]

My thoughts on passing and stealth are summed up best by Natalie Reed

"... The truth is not that we try to pass ourselves off as cis women just because we get a kick out of that. It’s because we pretty much have to; in order to be accepted as women at all, in order to be treated as valid, in order to be offered basic respect and dignity and human rights, in order to go to the bathroom, in order to not be treated as jokes or freaks or pariahs, in order to avoid bigotry, in order to be safe, in order to avoid violence, in order to not be instantly discounted (or fetishized) for what we are before anyone bothers trying to understand us as who we are, in order to simply provide ourselves a chance at simple love and intimacy, a chance to have it be simple before it becomes complicated by our gender and the cultural baggage surrounding it …including the potential that you’ll hate us for it. ..."
- Natalie Reed

[Ashley D.]

Though I go every day passing without a problem and I'm sure I could go stealth.
I will not!
I understand the wanting to go stealth. Infact I did.
But the more I studied our community and why we're treated so poorly.
I learned we have no voice. For most transsexuals there or one of two paths.
One transition and live happy as your self or two transition not pass and spend your life happier
But still walking in shadows.
So how can a community with most members only being open about who they are for a year or two ever make changes.
For the ones that come after them.

Ok so I'm sure people are going to have problems with my point.
But that's who I see it and I'm going to do my best to teach people about
Who I am and why I am.

[Kimberly Kael]

Stealth is simply being able to live a female life without anyone knowing you were born male. I suppose it would be the perfect form of passing. At least that's my understanding.

"Passing" usually refers to not being read by some one, usually relating to appearance or behavior. Stealth goes well beyond that to prohibit disclosure (never letting anyone know you're trans under any circumstances but medical need), and continuity (not having any connections to your life before transition, no friends or family, no work history, etc.) It's a significantly more obsessive approach and it pretty much mandates not spending time with other trans folk. As others have observed, it's natural to reintegrate into society and find that the majority of the people you interact with are cis. It's another to worry about "guilt by association" and actively avoid our kind.


So how can a community with most members only being open about who they are for a year or two ever make changes.
For the ones that come after them.

Ok so I'm sure people are going to have problems with my point.
But that's who I see it and I'm going to do my best to teach people about
Who I am and why I am.

I'm in complete agreement. It's how I choose to live for many of the same reasons.

[melissaK]

Fun thread.

My 2 cents: From comments over the years, it seems to me some of us have that ingrained desire to pass undetected as the gender we weren't born into. So if they don't pass, it feels to them more like they hit technological or situational limitations than that they made a decision by choice . . .

But I COMPLETELY agree that it's wrong to assume ALL of us want to pass undetected . . . and I agree the CIS gatekeepers perpetuate this as the only option - as the "holy grail" all TS must aspire to. . .

I don't want to be June Cleaver, I just want to be "me." And right now that "me" is not very interested in passing undetected as a woman. Perhaps situational factors shape my decision making, but I don't think so - my feelings don't support that analysis.

I want very much for the gender "outlaw" classification to be more respected than it is . . .

[Angela Campbell]

Although I am worlds and a million years away from any chance of anything resembling "stealth"....I want to be a woman. Not a Tgirl, not trans, not in between, not pre op or post op....just what I should have been born as. Once there I will not care what others know or think. Well yes I will but it will be less important to what I think of myself. Hell I spent over 50 years as a "stealth" male. No one had any idea what I really was. I didn't much care what anyone thought of me, in fact I didn't care about me either.

[arbon]

I'm always intrigued by the people that successfully transitioned and had good lives living stealth but then decide to come out - like Janet Mock.

For me I'm not in a place in my transition where it really is choice. I wish I was just a woman like very other woman, but it is not my reality today.

[Michelle.M]

Stealth, I think, would be the ultimate goal. It's not because I'd try to deny being trans or try to trick people, I just want to be happy and live a relatively normal life...as a woman.

I used to think the same way. I have since come to realize that my happiness and the ability to live a normal life has nothing to do with any ability to be stealthy.

The idea that stealth is a necessity for that is an outdated fairy tale.


I do not like the word Stealth to describe that period that marks the end of transition and moving on with the rest of your life. I will bet a psychologist came up with the word stealth.

I agree. I can't figure out why we're still trying to own it for ourselves, especially when it was a concept foisted upon us.


Get out there and live your life to the fullest. Whatever that may entail.

Best advice ever.

[Badtranny]

Though I go every day passing without a problem and I'm sure I could go stealth.
.

Ever notice that people who say stuff like this tend to never post pictures of themselves?

I've certainly noticed.

[Michelle.M]

Ever notice that people who say stuff like this tend to never post pictures of themselves?

Um, isn't that Ashley's image in her avatar?

I dunno, that seems a little harsh to require that people make their images public. I gave a talk at my church recently and one of the people in the group asked me if I had any photos [of my pre-transition self], and I replied "Yes, I do but No, you can't see them".

That got a laugh, but I went on to explain that this preoccupation with pictures was, in my opinion, kind of Jerry Springer-ish. And even though my FFS exceeded my own expectations the only people I show images to are those in transition who are contemplating the same procedure. I treat my images as more of an informational tool than anything else.

If anyone wants to post their image here that's great! But I think we put too much emphasis on our post-transition appearances, and just like this unnatural fixation on successful stealth being evidence of a successful transition I also feel that we regard physical beauty as another indicator of a successful life during and after transition, and it just ain't so.

And besides, if one really does live stealth then that whole "stealth philosophy" is somewhat contrary to the casual spread of photos.

[Badtranny]

I dunno, that seems a little harsh.

Perhaps Michelle, and I understand that some people don't want to post pictures for whatever reason, but I don't understand why people would expect us to just accept their completely unsubstantiated claims of beauty and/or perfect passing?

The reality is most of us look markedly different from a GG and all it takes is a side by side pic with one to prove that. Some look great no matter, some look pretty good, some will always be a bit masculine looking. We need to strive for a persistent frankness around here because early transitioners need to see the truth. They need to see what the surgeries do, what the hormones do, what we look like next to other people. Otherwise we're just a bunch of faceless voices, saying whatever we want to say regardless of how true it is. We don't serve anyone by encouraging delusion and it is a fact that almost every girl who posts about their incredible passing ability, also tends to post very few pictures. Why is that?

Why don't we encourage each other to be honest and real? The TS board should have a culture of realness along with a no BS policy. In my view, you shouldn't make any claim you're not prepared to prove. It just seems right.

[kellycan27]

I wonder how many of the anti- stealthers who have posted here are actually living full time and are out there 24/7 365 on their own and not just opining on " how they would live life" and why others should or shouldn't????

[Kathryn Martin]

Maybe we should create a facebook page called "Faces of Women". That would be a great place for people to post their pictures if they like to. We could even make it stealth as in members only.:devil:

[LeaP]

I put up my avatar photo again recently. I'm reluctant about posting additional pictures primarily because of the anonymity and identity questions. That applies even to Safe Haven, as it doesn't take anything more than a self-declaration and handful of posts to gain access there. That is one area where I would prefer to see proof of identity - i.e. both who I am as well as some kind of proof of being trans – in order to gain access. Under those conditions, I would be more willing to post photos.

It's not hard to implement, but it's a pain to administer. Copy of a government provided ID, a telephone call, and a copy of something like a prescription, HRT letter… Something ...

Trust those who trust you.

[Kathryn Martin]

It's not hard to implement, but it's a pain to administer. Copy of a government provided ID, a telephone call, and a copy of something like a prescription, HRT letter… Something ...

Trust those who trust you.

We could even administer a smell test:o

[Angela Campbell]

Posting a photo is not something I worry about. No I do not post in the "pics" section because I do not want others telling me how cute that outfit is or how "fem" it makes me look. I do use current pics (less than a month or two old) as an avatar and profile pic so others will know who they are talking to. I do not care who sees it, sooner or later all the world will see me anyway. I also post current pics so others will know I am real. I do not post fantasies, photoshopped, pics done at some Glamor shots place, or outright lies, everything you see here is really me. I have nothing to hide.

As far as stealth...I can see the day where there will be no need to discuss what I am going through with most people I meet. I can hope anyway.

[Michelle.M]

Melissa, you are hitting all the right notes with this post, and I think we know each other well enough to respect that at times we are philosophical treble and bass rather than a unison melody.

A certain amount of trust is implied, and it's OK to take someone's word at face value until that word has been shown to be false. And yes, we do get pretenders here who just want to play at being tranny, but in my own innocent way I still believe that most here are just at different points in the same journey as you and I are.


The reality is most of us look markedly different from a GG and all it takes is a side by side pic with one to prove that.

I get that, but who cares? If someone thinks they blend well into the gender scenery and they don't they'll either figure it out for themselves soon enough or they'll be like the bumblebee who supposedly can't really fly, but he doesn't know that so he goes ahead and flies anyway. There's no harm to the rest of us either way.


We need to strive for a persistent frankness around here because early transitioners need to see the truth. They need to see what the surgeries do, what the hormones do, what we look like next to other people.

While I agree that we don't do anyone any good by promoting the myth that they'll emerge from their trans- cocoon as a beautiful butterfly when they just don't have butterfly raw material to begin with the discovery of that truth is yet one more growth step that each of us takes in our own time.

And posting pics helps that process, and I've shared mine with a couple of people, but requiring that of others isn't really necessary for the good of all, I think. Although I do see your point.


We don't serve anyone by encouraging delusion and it is a fact that almost every girl who posts about their incredible passing ability, also tends to post very few pictures. Why is that?

Oh, encouraging delusion, when it's apparent that's what we're dealing with, is a big no-no. Couldn't agree more. But to treat everyone who withholds images as a de facto fraud isn't the way to go.

People choose not to post for a variety of reasons. Let's just ask why that is so and then we can have a more meaningful discussion.


In my view, you shouldn't make any claim you're not prepared to prove. It just seems right.

Fair enough. If you require proof, ask for it. But not all of us do require it, and I'm not entirely sure what delivering that proof would accomplish for anyone's well-being.

And what if the proof DID support the claim? What will we have accomplished by demanding and receiving the proof?


Maybe we should create a facebook page called "Faces of Women". That would be a great place for people to post their pictures if they like to. We could even make it stealth as in members only.:devil:

Don't we already have Our Own Picture Thread in Safe Haven?

[Angela Campbell]

We could even administer a smell test:o

ohhh nooo scratch and sniff?

[kellycan27]

Somehow I suspect that unless the pictures posted looked like a transsexual.. The poster would still be suspect. LMAO!

[Nigella]

This is a support forum not a club, there will not be a demand of proof from anyone who declares themselves to be TS. This forum (transsexual forum) is for anyone to discuss TS issues and topics. Until that is changed, there should be an understanding that not everyone is sure where they belong and many may be trying to find themselves. Where better to do that than this forum.

If you think what you are reading is :BS:, then ignore it.

[Angela Campbell]

Somehow I think that unless the pictures posted looked like a transsexual.. The poster would still be suspect. LMAO!

Uhhhhhh........................................... ...............that certainly makes you suspect, lol

[kellycan27]

Hence the comment!

[Kimberly Kael]

I don't understand why people would expect us to just accept their completely unsubstantiated claims of beauty and/or perfect passing?

Having every thread devolve into "prove it" debates doesn't sound like a worthwhile discussion. You certainly didn't offer any proof that you're respected in your profession, and that's every bit as germane when it comes to setting expectations for someone considering transition. As with anything else in life, I think everyone here has a personal responsibility to manage their own level of skepticism and interpret posts in the context of everything they've seen from an individual. I've seen that you value honesty and are open about challenges you face, so I'm generally inclined to believe you're telling it like it is.


Why don't we encourage each other to be honest and real? The TS board should have a culture of realness along with a no BS policy. In my view, you shouldn't make any claim you're not prepared to prove. It just seems right.

I was with you right up to the "prepared to prove" bit. A photo isn't proof that someone doesn't get read, or that they do. People should be prepared for skepticism and debate, but proof seems like an impractical bar.


I wonder how many of the anti- stealthers who have posted here are actually living full time and are out there 24/7 365 on their own and not just opining on "how they would live life" and why others should or shouldn't????

It's reasonable to ask anyone who posts, certainly, where they are on the spectrum. I've been living openly as a woman for more than three years, and Melissa is also full-time, so that's two.

[dreamer_2.0]

With all the emphasis on posting photos of ourselves, here's an updated on of me. FFS is almost done. I think it was well worth the money, don't you?

http://alexsumner.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/1801-12885.jpg

[Nigella]

Thread done ........................