You don't have to be a crossdresser....

[Leona]

You don't have to be a crossdresser to enjoy the benefits that women's beauty products can give you.

Am I right? If not, why not?

[daarleane]

You are probably "right", however once you get beyond the cleansing and moisturizing and into actual beauty products. Not in guy mode.

[Taylor186]

It might be easier to address your question if we knew what beauty products and benefits are you referring to?

[Beverley Sims]

Maybe, but you do need to explain why .

[Kate Simmons]

Maybe Hon but many of us are really such "girls" that we don't see any other way, right?:heehee::)

[Leona]

It might be easier to address your question if we knew what beauty products and benefits are you referring to?

It was intended as an open-ended question to see what y'all came up with.

The basic cleaning and skin care, take that as read. There's a word for that if you're not a crossdresser: metrosexual.

What about nail care? Nail polish? Pedi? Lip liner? Makeup? ALL beauty products. Why would a nonCD man want to wear eyeliner? Maybe he has really pretty eyes and would like to enhance their appeal? Women dig that.... My wife does this really nice looking no-makeup makeup look that a man could learn to reproduce for his own face. Why shouldn't he? Why do you have to be a crossdresser to do it?

[Taylor186]

Yes, well things that are invisible, like skin care, can (and should, I think) be practiced by all. But, when it comes to makeup, nail polish and colored lip liner, the culture you live in sets the standards of beauty and what is acceptable for men and women. Most women in western cultures don't "dig" men wearing eye makeup or nail polish. If they did those products would be offered in the men's department of every store.

If you have a plausible reason, like you are into goth, or are in a glam band or rock androgyny then by all means go ahead, it's expected. But the average guy will not get away with it.

[Leona]

I beg to differ. I think that girls "dig" that stuff more than they admit. At a certain level, women want a man to be a MAN, for the most part (some exceptions apply, as with any generalized statement). Why can't a man use women's beauty products to enhance their manly appearance? Beauty products aren't necessarily about looking more feminine, many can easily be applied to look more masculine (and many women do that, I'm thinking of those "butch" lesbians here....).

So why not? Why can't a man do that?

I've been out in boy mode wearing the remnants of eyeliner/eyeshadow and gotten nothing but good looks from women. Sure, some were speculating about whether or not I was wearing makeup. Others were clearly turned on (I have bright pretty blue eyes) and couldn't take their eyes off me.

Hence the question. It's intended to challenge your views of cultural norms. At the same time, you can feel more feminine by making yourself look more masculine using the tools of the trade. So, why not?

This isn't supposed to be me arguing in support of this behavior, it's supposed to be YOU coming up with ways to use women's beauty products to be more masculine in a way that a cisgender male would be able to use them. Because, you know, CDs have some ideas on that, at some level. Some of us, anyway. I hope I'm not the only one.

[heatherdress]

Leona - seems like you have both explained and answered your initial question. I do understand and appreciate your thoughts. Beauty products for men are increasing and guys who do not appear to be crossdressing are using make-up, and wearing and using more feminine-oriented products (jewelry, clothing, earrings, hair care). I hope male fashion and continues to progress. But I am not sure that any of these female-oriented products would make a male user "more masculine, as you tried to explain. Sorry, could you explain a bit more? Thanks.

[Taylor186]

If your wife digs you in makeup then you are one of the lucky ones. My wife does not dig a man in makeup. Also, you are really only speculating on what those other women think. That's always dangerous.

If you really think you know women better "than they will admit," then by all means, wear makeup all the time. Let us know how it works out.


[edit: other thoughts] What do men think of you wearing makeup? They help set cultural norms too.

I agree Heather, men's dress norms are changing and some things that were considered feminine markers twenty or thirty years ago are now OK for men. But the pace of change ... glacial. Earrings on men are still extremely uncommon here in the Midwest.

[JustAlex]

Well, it's hard to draw the line.
If you are out of clean undies and take your SO panties, do you become a CD instantly? What if you two decide to do some role change one night? Do you have to dress all the way or just the regular use of female underwear is enough? What if you just wear jeans and a shirt? what if it's just something in the middle of the androgynous zone? is what you use that defines what you are or is your attitude while using it?

I really don't know the answers, I'm just asking myself.

[Leona]

Ok, so, take makeup. Women don't paint brand new faces on with it, they use it to enhance what's there, according to what culture tells them is attractive (hence the wildly varying styles of makeup throughout the world). Men on TV wear makeup, at least foundation. Watching Star Trek TNG with my wife, I keep pointing out the various ways the men on the show are wearing makeup (the most noticeable yet extremely subtle being Moriarty). In each case, we talk about how the makeup enhances the man's features to portray the character in a particular way. So how would you use makeup to enhance your manly face for the purpose of looking more attractive, or just looking your best?

Then consider a dress. Men already wear tank tops and other sleeveless garb to show off their muscles (and women seem to universally love shoulders/arms, or at least that's been my experience, but being a mechanic, that's probably the kind of woman I attract). We all know how dresses can understate undesirable parts of your body and overstate desirable parts, hind at the curve of the rump while mostly hiding it, stuff like that. My wife really enjoys seeing a bulge develop in the front when I wear a skirt in a particular way, so it's not unreasonable to consider that other women might enjoy that, too. It stands to reason that there are dresses men can wear that would show off their manly bodies in ways that women would find quite attractive. So, what kind of dresses would you consider for that?

So I guess my question was intended to get y'all thinking about stuff like that, but it was mostly focused on beauty products, not necessarily clothes and stuff, and come up with practical ways a man would use such things to express himself without having any sort of female gender identity.

Does it make sense yet? :)

[Taylor186]

Designer Mark Jacobs has actively tried to get men (non TG) into skirts the past few years. Hasn't worked. http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/03/22/marc-jacobs-skirt_n_1372127.html

Culture is a hard thing to change.

[betty1253]

IMHO, if more men could see the multitude of flaws that a little foundation and powder can cover up, they would embrace makeup.

[Leona]

Culture is a hard thing to change.

Not trying to change culture here, just wanting to know what sorts of approaches y'all would use.

(For the record, men should be in to skirts. It's just dumb for them not to be)

[heatherdress]

I have noticed many articles which cover men in high heels. Hopefully they will continue to appear, and more men will explore women's shoe fashions.

http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/high-heels-men-fashions-newest-trend/story?id=14763090

[ossian]

Leona, I totally get where you are coming from, why not have men and women borrow the best from "all" sides in making your self beautiful.

I think a more interesting question would be, how does that make you feel and how does that feeling fit on the gender spectrum? You go first.

[Leona]

I think a more interesting question would be, how does that make you feel and how does that feeling fit on the gender spectrum? You go first.

You may be right, so let's add this question to the thread. In addition to the question in my OP, I'd like this one answered as well. :) (mods: I quoted this so I could bold it. I'd rather not see it edited out unless ossian's post is edited to make the question bold. Y'all will do what you want, as usual...)

I will go first in answering.

I think that I would feel more comfortable knowing that men were using the same products to the same end: to present themselves better in a line of thinking of how they view themselves. I see myself as a girl often enough that I use these products to present that. I would also gladly use them to present myself better as a boy, the situation just hasn't come up yet (and when I want to practice, I'm invariably wearing a dress). I have long been searching for dresses that would look good on me. I even almost talked my ex-wife into buying one for me, but she balked because she couldn't see me as being a man while wearing a dress.

Politically, I think that one of the barriers to trans acceptance is that men reject entire product lines as being purely for women, and those product lines are therefore geared towards women. It's a chicken and egg problem, and it's gay men that usually push the boundary on that, so nobody pays them any notice.

In my life, I'd love to see a guy with killer eye lashes wear mascara to show them off. Besides me. I'd love the affirmation that it's not the use of the products that makes me a woman, what makes me a woman is deep inside and the use of the products isn't even required for me to be a woman. That affirmation would come from seeing heteronormative cisgender men using those same products. It would separate the wearing of dresses and makeup as the central presentation of my feminine self to the outward expression of my internal feelings and attitude, because it is *those* things that make me a woman, not what I wear. What I wear is merely an expression. But if society were to accept that I can wear slacks and a button up shirt and be a woman, and that wearing a dress as a man is normalized, maybe I wouldn't even feel the need to "pass"?

[ossian]

Leona, I actually now understand where the original question was going. And, I agree with where you are coming from.

Society and the fashion industry has put both men and women into these silos and then taught us what looks good from an early age. This is kind of unfair, but it is a fact of the times we live in. From an early age I have felt exhilarated and comforted by wearing women's clothes. I have no idea why. On the other side I like many of the practical things found in men's fashion.

I'll never know what it is like to be a woman "and" I'll never know what it is like to be a normal man. I "do" know what it is like to be a heterosexual bi-gender CD'r though. And I'm slowly accepting who and what I am. (It has been tough.)

I also, wish and share the desire that erected walls between product lines be torn down so that the full spectrum of gender can be expressed and accepted. I think it will take time though. I look to the past for some hope on these kinds of issues, i.e. - end slavery, women's right to vote, gay marriage, list goes on. But until society is more accepting I think it is our duty no matter how painful it is to educate and communicate with those who don't understand.

p.s. - I bought a sewing machine this last summer to ultimately make/modify better clothes for myself.

[suchacutie]

IMHO even if Tina never appeared again, I can't imagine life without the skincare products that have clearly improved myexistence. My wife would probably weigh in. She's convinced that I've cut 5-10 years off the condition of my face since the arrival of Tina.