If autogynephilia doesn't exist

[whowhatwhen]

(And I've read some well reasoned and put together thoughts on why it, and it's father are both utter trash.)

Then why could some be attracted to their female image?
I've thought a lot about this while trying to understand my own battle anhedonia and anorgasmia and I just had to share a thought I was having.

A few months ago I was talking with my therapist about something probably boner related and she told me something to the tune of "sometimes people want to feel sexy".

She's right, it's perfectly normal and natural to want to feel sexy.
Let's say you feel more attractive as a woman then you do as a man, take all the clothes off and what do you have? A plain old genetic male body.

(GGs please correct me here) Women don't necessarily need clothes/lingerie to feel sexy. All the female cues are there naturally. For a genetic male unless you've won the genetic lottery or had plastic surgery you're going to look down and see obvious male cues.

Now if you add in the fancy lingerie, the hair, the makeup things may just start to align. More female cues are present and perhaps that makes it easier for you to feel sexy. Perhaps you're not attracted to yourself as autogynephilia suggests, but you're more connected to your innermost self, desires, ect...

I'm curious to hear some other perspectives on this line of thought, TGs and GGs alike because I'm sure both sides have experience on this sort of thing.
I haven't tried any of this myself due to the aforementioned anhedonia but I'm curious about other's experiences.

[Zylia]

First of all, I'm not entirely sure if 'feeling sexy' and being sexually aroused are supposed to be the same thing, in general and in your post. Arousal seems something you can scientifically define, feeling sexy not really. It's also worth noting that arousal comes from suggestion, i.e. your own mind as well as physical stimuli. You don't have to dress like a woman as a man to feel sexually aroused by the idea of being dressed like a woman.

Also, I wonder where you get the idea from that there's no such thing as autogynephilia. It's included in the DSM, which is about as scientific as you can get. It's a specifier for 'transvestic disorder', meaning that some, but not all people with this disorder (which is not the same thing as being transgendered by the way) may be 'autogynephilic'. This doesn't mean that only people with this disorder may be autogynephilic.

Maybe you're talking about Ray Blanchard's research into 'classification' of transsexuals. His research and conclusions have been written off as unscientific because his methods weren't correct and he insinuated correlation and causality where there's supposedly none. That doesn't mean he saw things that weren't there at all, there may definitely be transsexuals with autogynephilic feelings, you just cannot conclude in any way there's some broad correlation between sexual preference, the 'type' of transsexual you are (which Blanchard made up) and reasons for being transsexual. Please correct me if I'm wrong here.

[whowhatwhen]

http://www.tsroadmap.com/info/autogynephilia.html

Is a pretty good read imho.

TL;DR:
Ray Blanchard is a quack.

[Paula_56]

Connie

I think you have the right idea, I get aroused or feel sexy when I feel feminine or pretty. The idea of a man desiring me becasue I look pretty is a turn. I believe women feel the same way. Now super charge that response with T and years of male social conditioning and you have the spectrum you see in our community

[Zylia]

That article is about Blanchard's theory, which on itself can be written off as unscientific, no debate here. However, the article also dismisses the use of the autogynephilia in it's literal meaning as a opposed to a classification for TG/TS people, which is "sexually aroused by thought or image of self as female". The word autogynephilia is still used with that meaning in the DSM, last updated this year, as opposed to the article you provided which seems to be from 2004. You can argue about what the value is of the DSM, it certainly is not a 'psychology bible' in the literal sense, but you cannot just dismiss it because it doesn't support your conclusion, which is exactly what Blanchard did as well.

We can bicker about the word autogynephilia and how it should not be used, but "sexual arousal by thought or image of self as female" still is a real thing, so maybe it needs a new word to remove the hard link to Blanchard's controversial theory.

[Angela Campbell]

Now super charge that response with T and years of male social conditioning and you have the spectrum you see in our community

There is the key I think. The social conditioning and testosterone does strange things to us.

[Rianna Humble]

You can argue about what the value is of the DSM, it certainly is not a 'psychology bible' in the literal sense, but you cannot just dismiss it because it doesn't support your conclusion, which is exactly what Blanchard did as well.

Your argument might hold more water if it were not well established that it was Blanchard who was given the job of deciding whether his made-up condition should remain in the DSM

[Zylia]

Are you claiming that "sexual arousal by thought or image of self as female" is a made-up condition? Because that's what we're discussing here right?

As far as I know, (but please CMIIW) the ideas Blanchard has/had about 'autogynephilia' in relation to classification of transsexuals are not reflected in DSM-V, as autogynephilia is used as a specifier for fetishism or transvestic disorder. Keyword is 'disorder' here by the way, not every transgendered/transsexual person or any other person with 'transvestic' urges can be diagnosed with a transvestic disorder. Autogynephilia on itself is not a disorder or 'condition', it's just used to specify actual disorders.

[deebra]

The male body to females is just as sexy as the female body is to men but women have an extra card to play that men aren't allowed. The BIG DIFFERENCE is womens clothes are designed to enhance the female body and produce an attractive, sexy, desirable image; those screwball designers aren't smart enough to do this for men and women continue to want the scales tipped their way. So whats a poor male to do?? Answer: CROSSDRESS. So to level the playing field I crossdress with all that ammunition women have and it turns one into looking and feeling like a pretty, SEXY woman.

[Krististeph]

Let's say you feel more attractive as a woman then you do as a man, take all the clothes off and what do you have? A plain old genetic male body.

I would not say i 'feel more attractive' to others as a female, I would say I "Would like to be more attractive, as a female".

Take off my clothes and what do you have (besides a bunch of slaps on you hands... :-) )? A fitter body than most men of my age, slimmer and less beefy that most 'in shape' guys- decent legs, slim but moderately muscular arms. With underwear on, I still look 'male' but a decidedly less masculine look than most. Again, it is part of the image I would like to be able to project, not just for the purpose of looking at it myself.

[Kate Simmons]

I never even heard of half of this stuff way back when when I started dressing. Am I missing something? I just have fun being who I am and let it go at that.:)

[Rachel E Lee]

Autogynephillia is real.

It's incidence among heterosexual women approaches 100 percent

It's why nearly all women's magazines feature a photo of a beautiful sexy woman on the cover

[MatildaJ.]

In our culture, the desiring gaze is coded as male. So when men dress sexy, they are considered to be displaying themselves for other men, which would supposedly make them gay. Men who want to be seen as sexy-but-not-gay don't have many options, but cross-dressing seems to be one of them: "I’m dressing to attract the male gaze, but I’m doing so as a woman, so it’s not gay."

This is post #2 since I signed up, so, also, hi everyone. My husband of 17 years has been figuring out his interest in cross-dressing over the past couple of years, and I'm figuring out how to be supportive.

I have a technical question: when I read these threads before I registered, the oldest post was at the top of the first page of a thread, and the most recent post was at the bottom of the last page. But since I registered, that has flipped. Does anyone know where the controls are to switch it back? It's disorienting having to read from bottom to top of the page.

[LilSissyStevie]

"Sexual arousal by thought or image of oneself as female" is real but that is not autogynephilia. AGP is the hypothesis that there are two types of transsexuals: extremely effeminate gay men that transition in order to fool straight men into having sex with them and non-gay men that transition in order to have sex with themselves. The latter condition is caused by an "erotic target location error." In other words, AGPs are, according to Blanchard, narcissistic jerk offs. Autogynephilia is Blanchard's word for both the description of the phenomenon and an explanation for what causes it. If you are going to refer to autogynephilia then I think you should be referring to the whole hypothesis and not just how it manifests itself. Jack Molay at his Crossdreamers blog calls "sexual arousal by thought or image of oneself as female (or feminine)" crossdreaming thereby stripping the phenomenon from it supposed cause.

So what causes crossdreaming? That's just like the "Why do you cross dress?" question. There are probably as many causes for it as there are people who experience it. In some cases Blanchard's explanation might be the best fit. I don't think that "erotic target location error" fits for me. In every case of sexual arousal, you are aroused by something and you are also aroused as something. You don't become aroused in a vacuum. Your own identity is part of the mix. So a heterosexual man may be aroused by a woman he considers sexy but he is aroused as a man. But what if the "man's" gender identity doesn't match the body? That's when the wheels come off the wagon and you are on your own as to how to deal with it. In my case, I'm attracted to women but I can't see myself as a man, sexually speaking. So crossdreaming is one way I have dealt with it. Sexual arousal at the thought or image of myself as a woman is only half the equation. I'm still aroused by others, specifically my wife.

[Zylia]

"Narcissistic jerk offs" seems to be a crude description of "sexual arousal by thought or image of oneself as female". I know some sites with a clear agenda want to discredit everything related to the man, but those are not the words Blanchard used. I'm not claiming he's a nice guy, he probably isn't and I know the whole queer movement is supposed to hate him, but I would rather have a more factual discussion for serious topics like this.

[whowhatwhen]

An agenda against him?
His little theory has caused real problems for lots people.

Just what sites are working to slam such an honest, innocent man?

Edit:
That escalated quickly.

[LilSissyStevie]

If you still think Blanchard has any integrity, maybe you should read this (http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/heres-how-the-guy-who-wrote-the-manual-on-sex-talks-about-sex) recent interview with him. Note that the only reason he proposed including autoandrophilia in the DSM was to shut up feminists, not because he believes AAP exists. Is this what "scientists" do? Maybe he only proposed AGP because it was a novel idea that would get him published and some notoriety. Maybe he doesn't really even believe in that either. If so, it worked and we're the patsies. I was willing to give him some (just a little) benefit of the doubt until I read this interview. Nevermind his scarcely concealed contempt for gays and TGs in general or his archaic beliefs about sexuality.

[Zylia]

OK, moving the goalposts from autogynephilia to Ray Blanchard now, check! I just read that interview and I think I love the guy. I don't necessarily (have to) agree with all his ideas, but I like his blunt sense of humor and general appreciation for science and facts over social ideas. The 'AAP' thing is a bit out of character, but at least he seems to be honest about it.

[LilSissyStevie]

I like his blunt sense of humor and general appreciation for science and facts over social ideas. The 'AAP' thing is a bit out of character, but at least he seems to be honest about it.

There is no science here. It's all ideology. Blanchard's ideology is based on the idea, he even says so himself, that all sexual activity should be based on the goal of reproduction and if it isn't then it's a paraphilia. Where is the scientific evidence for that? Certainly reproduction is one goal of sexual activity but its neither the only one nor is it even a necessary one. And maybe the "AAP" thing is in character for him. We have no reason to think otherwise.

[Zylia]

And a paraphilia would be a 'bad' thing, right? Well that's exactly what he doesn't say. He says that normal sexual behavior is whatever is related to reproduction. All other sexual behavior is anomalous. Well big whoop. I think that people are too hung up on the word normal as if it means 'good'. That's a social distinction he doesn't necessarily make.

I'm not normal. I occasionally dress up as a woman and I even got another non-TG-related, relatively harmless DSM-IV-TR diagnosis. Oh and I guess I have some autogynephilic urges too every now and then.

[LilSissyStevie]

And a paraphilia would be a 'bad' thing, right? Well that's exactly what he doesn't say.

He doesn't have to say it. The whole idea of paraphilias is that they are a 'bad' thing. That's why they're in the DSM in the first place. And if all other sexual behavior is anomalous, how come almost everybody engages in non-reproductive sexual activity? It seems that reproductive sex is the anomaly.

[docrobbysherry]

Paraphilia, smeraphilia! DSM, BSM! Look up AGP in your psych dictionary. Sherry's pic is posted there.

Anyone who thinks that guys don't get turned on thinking of, or seeing themselves, as females is in complete denial! And, I'm fortunate to be one that gets to see himself as a naked female. I was applying some peach fuzz down there earlier.

So, skipping all the meaningless psychobabble. U guys that also get turned by your fem self? NOTHING beats seeing yourself naked with what appear to be real female breasts and vagina!

For me, feeling sexy comes AFTER seeing a sexy Sherry.

[sometimes_miss]

If autogynephilia doesn't exist
While I'm sure it exists, the problem remains that some people want to believe that it applies to everyone who crossdresses. Which is not true. Too many insist on trying to find 'the one and only reason that men crossdress', but there is no such thing. Each case must be examined on it's own. Only then can each of us figure out why we have such a desire to in some way identify as female to ourselves, others, or both.