Making money: where do you draw the line?

[Leona]

So, there are a number of folks who have used their crossdressing to build successful careers, particularly in entertainment. Is there a point where using your feminine persona professionally becomes gimmicky, or downright unethical?

Consider these situations:

* Transgender author of fiction that includes trans characters, but for whom being trans is never the central theme
* Non-passable crossdresser uses the two-spirits idea to be a psychic, involving much stagecraft
* A band of crossdressers that never plays songs about crossdressing, but instead plays regular songs they like (covers or not), knowing the meaning of the song is altered slightly when it's delivered by a crossdressing band

In a related situation, what if an all-GG band let a guitar player in that was a crossdresser instead of a GG? Would that invalidate the all-GG part of the band?

[Michelle.M]

* Transgender author of fiction that includes trans characters, but for whom being trans is never the central theme

I see no ethical issue here. In real life, trans people are just people who exist in the context of life in a larger sense. Why shouldn't they be the same in literature?

* Non-passable crossdresser uses the two-spirits idea to be a psychic, involving much stagecraft

Sounds like carnival hokum; silly, but otherwise harmless.

* A band of crossdressers that never plays songs about crossdressing, but instead plays regular songs they like (covers or not), knowing the meaning of the song is altered slightly when it's delivered by a crossdressing band

Again, normal people doing a normal thing. Playing songs about crossdressing is not a job requirement. And I'm hard pressed to imagine what songs might have a different meaning when sung by crossdressers.

[Leona]

To your last point, some songs that come to mind: Metallica - Dyer's Eve, Madonna - Express Yourself (in fact, almost anything by Madonna), any male chauvinist country song... :)

(Yes, I'm proud that I cited both Metallica and Madonna in the same sentence)

[Brooklyn]

I'm more impressed that you referred to the entertainment industry and ethics in the same paragraph! Probably as long as someone is not posing as a TG person to gain notoriety, spreading false information or violating copyrights, I don't see a major dilemma in those scenarios.

[Eryn]

Let's see, Tyra Banks, Eddie Izzard and Dame Edna Everage all use their feminine personae to make money. I don't see any of them as being unethical.

[Kelly DeWinter]

There in nothing wrong with making money ethically.

[Barbara Ella]

I see nothing at all even close to improper in any of the situations brought up. I especially disagree with the inference about the song being changed by the band makeup etc. In reality, it is the person hearing the song that makes the biggest change to the intent of the llyrics, and band makeup would be almost irrelevant except to a very very few who might be in the know.

A CD in an advertised all GG band might be in bad taste to some, but if not a CD, but a TS, I give benefit of doubt.


Barbara.

[Leona]

Do you have a source for Tyra Banks being trans? I didn't find anything in a somewhat cursory google search....

I figured Eddie Izzard would get a pass. His move was a smart one. By going on stage dressed, and telling tasteful jokes about being a crossdresser, he could get 20 minutes of a set covered almost completely for free (the jokes come easy when you are a crossdresser and not making fun of it). And since he leads with that when he's dressed, he gets the audience in a good mood quite quickly. That's just a smart move. I've seen other crossdressing comedians that went on all combative about crossdressing and put the audience in a bad mood quickly.

Ok, to clarify my question, there has been a lot of talk since I joined about reputation and setting a good example as a CD citizen. It seems to me that that line could easily be crossed if you're using your CD persona professionally. Where does that line get crossed? Outside of the scenarios I outlined, what do YOU think would constitute crossing the line? Assume that the person in question is completely honest about being a CD.

Got posts while I was typing, heh.

For the GG band: I strongly believe that putting a CD in there means it's still a girl band. It's non-GG, but still a girl band. If you disagree, I'd like to know why.

Barbara: I agree that it's the person listening that makes the biggest changes to the meaning of the song. Depending on how that person views TG musicians, that can make a big difference. Homophobia certainly drove different interpretations of Boy George's work (Michael Jackson's, too, and he wasn't even TG).

[Beverley Sims]

These are all valid money making concerns.
I believe being a hooker is but I draw the line there.

[Tracii G]

I have played guitar with an all girl band enfemme at their request because their regular guitar player could not make the 2 shows.
I learned their original songs on the set list and knew the cover songs they had on there as well.
So tell me why a band comprised of crossdressers has to do songs dealing with crossdressers?
A band tailors what songs they play to fit the crowd at the venue,if the bar owner wants a cover band do covers if he is OK with originals then do those.
To be honest there are no rules and how is a song any different because of the gender of the one playing it?

[Leona]

So tell me why a band comprised of crossdressers has to do songs dealing with crossdressers?
They don't. I've made several small attempts to put together a band of crossdressers. The only answer I got was from someone who was the TG frontwoman of a band of cis people who wanted a TG bass player (hence why she was emailing me). I checked out their music and it was all about being TG. No wonder they don't have a fan base, they're only appealing to a pretty small minority where most people in that minority won't publicly admit they're in that minority. Really, it's like having a band that sings praise to the Pythagoreans. Who's going to go to that show?



To be honest there are no rules and how is a song any different because of the gender of the one playing it?

Joan Jett ran into this. She didn't change pronouns to fit her songs, and some of her songs were written by men about women. You don't see how that changes the meaning of the song? The fundamental love theme is still there, of course, and is the strongest theme, but having a woman singing it doesn't change it? What about when Tiffany did "I saw her standing there"? She changed the pronouns....

Of course, ultimately, what if a band of CDers played "Girls just want to have fun"? Originally the song was quite misogynist. Cyndi Lauper refused to sing those lyrics and rewrote her own. Then you turn around and put them back in the mouths of a group of GM's that are presenting as women. That doesn't change the meaning in any way?

[VirtuaGrl]

* A band of crossdressers that never plays songs about crossdressing, but instead plays regular songs they like (covers or not), knowing the meaning of the song is altered slightly when it's delivered by a crossdressing band

May I introduce to the you: The New York Dolls.

[Leona]

Doubtful. I'm in Texas. :)

[Lorileah]

I do cabaret acts (not drags) and I sing all the time without changing my voice. I have been approached by two people who have bands to perform with them and maybe even front one (jazz blues and standards). I know that in at least one case being TG was part of the hook. Every band needs something to make them stand out otherwise they are just another garage band that won't get many gigs.

If performing would make me a decent living I would do it all the time. I don't see it as unethical. It is doing what you like to do. No one is hurt, no one loses money or a job over it. If you are good at something why does your gender or presentation make it any different?

[Leona]

Ok, Lori, since you answered, I'll spill my guts. I'm considering some of this stuff. I've busked in the past as a juggler, and didn't do so well. In fact, I had a hard time differentiating myself from the "bums" down there. So I put together a costume. My costume is a cisgender male costume, and I'm not in a hurry to wear it. So I'm asking myself how I can improve it to be more representative, and I'm finding answers like "Well, being a crossdresser would actually distract from the fact that I don't have an act and probably make more money". That sounds like a gimmick to me. But if it's true, then why not do it?

This city's been suffering since we lost Leslie Cochran. I can't replace him, nor can I succeed him, but I can inject a new sort of weirdness. And if I'm smart about it, I can make some money with it. So I want to know, quite honestly, at what point will I be crossing the line and using my crossdressing as a money-making machine? Or is there even a line? Did I make it up? Is it, in fact, ok to be a professional crossdresser?

[Tracii G]

Well from what I have read Joan Jett is a lesbian so I guess the lyrics do fit.
They banned busking in my city which is a shame really.

[Wildaboutheels]

I don't believe there is any line as long as folks are willing to VOLUNTARILY part with their own money. I think how ANY "entertainer" chooses to "present themselves" is almost irrelevant if the talent level is good enough. Record sales [because of radio play] are a prime example of this.

[AmyGaleRT]

Joan Jett ran into this. She didn't change pronouns to fit her songs, and some of her songs were written by men about women. You don't see how that changes the meaning of the song? The fundamental love theme is still there, of course, and is the strongest theme, but having a woman singing it doesn't change it? What about when Tiffany did "I saw her standing there"? She changed the pronouns....

This is actually a well-known trope: The Cover Changes The Gender (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheCoverChangesTheGender). Sometimes the trope is averted, though.


I do cabaret acts (not drags) and I sing all the time without changing my voice. I have been approached by two people who have bands to perform with them and maybe even front one (jazz blues and standards). I know that in at least one case being TG was part of the hook.

I will personally vouch for the quality of Lori's voice! Yes, it might look or sound incongruous to some, seeing her singing in a voice that does Frank Sinatra credit while looking as good as she does :) but she makes it work. And yes, her act is very tasteful, classic even. But don't take my word for it; come to Denver and catch her act at the Black Crown. See for yourself!

- Amy