Discussion with my wife

[Stephy]

This evening I had a discussion about by CDing urges with my wife. I wanted to try to establish what the boundaries are, so that I don't have to sneak around behind her back or fear that she is going to freak out about something. Earlier on the week I had mentioned that I was thinking of joining the Seahorse Society - a CD support group that meets once a month. She had said she was worried about the logistics of it. Where would I get dressed? How would I hide it from our sons? What if someone saw me on the way there? So this evening I asked her about it again, hoping that she would be more open to it, but she basically said she was not happy with me CDing anywhere outside the house. I asked her when could I do it inside the house and she said it would have to be an evening when the boys are not here - which is never! She then said it would be dysfunctional to arrange for them to go to a friends house so that I could CD, since we never even do that so we can go out together as a couple. I agreed that it would be good to go out as a couple. But she seems to think that it will go away if I am distracted by other things like going out with her. I tried to explain that it feels like it is a part of me, but she is convinced it is purely caused by my depression and stress at work. I want to express the feminine side of me, but she says that just doesn't work for her. I don't know what to do. I feel like I need to be myself, but I want her to accept me. It's hard to understand that she loves me when I look male (though feeling very feminine inside) but as soon as I try to match my outward appearance with how I feel, she finds it in her words "irritating". It feels like déjÃ* vu from 10 years ago. How do I resolve this?

Steffi

[Alberta_Pat]

Steffi;

Going out to a local support group will be beneficial.

Is your wife willing for you to attend a meeting? If so, go drab. Get to know some of the folk there.

They can be a great resource to both you and your wife, especially if she gets to meet them. Invite your wife to attend (if the group is open to that) with you. She will see that they are "people" just like everyone else.

Take small steps, include your wife every step of the way. Your paths may diverge at times. Keep the love and faith you have for her. Trust her instincts (she chose you didn't she?).

[Wildaboutheels]

Doesn't really sound like a discussion to me. Your wife seems pretty clear about HER feelings which is after all, HER prerogative. She knows about your dressing. Your only choice would appear to be, at least for now, DADT, especially given your history. Certainly not ideal but better than not dressing at all in your case?

[Chari]

Many of us have gone through (and continue to go through) the same issues as you! It is good that you are trying to continue open conversations to draw comfortable boundaries as to the limitations of your feminine feelings. BTW, those feelings will NEVER go away! Some of us are in our sixties/seventies and have been CDing for decades. IMO, CDing is part of you and what makes you who you are. Perhaps your wife would accept you dressing alone - when she and your sons are away for a day or two. Visiting another couple may be OK only if everyone knows about and accepts Steffi. Would talking to an understanding psyc help? Your idea to join a support group is great, as it will give you info as to how others are handling similar situations, and perhaps help you understand your feminine side. No one has ever found any quick easy answers to CD issues.

[Sabrina133]

I have to agree with WAHs. I appears as if your wife is throwing up every possible obstacle to prevent you from dressing or expressing your feminine side. It doesn't appear as if there is much room for negotiations or a middle ground.

[stefan37]

Your in a difficult situation for sure. Most tg groups have places to change, so you could explain to your wife You will go as male and change there and change back before you leave. The desire to let your fem side out can be a tricky issue. She married you as male and that is what she wants. Sounds like there is not much compromise in her.

[Rabecca]

Seems like you are pushing a little to hard.
I think set back, take it a little slower.
When the kids go to bed put on a pair of nylons, put back on your normal jeans sit in your chain and let her notice you have them on. See want the feed back is going to be like. May tell you a little more want your next move is going to be.

[jenni_xx]

Hi Steffi

It seems, based on what you say, that the both of you attending the support group together is out of the question because of your children (your comment: "we never even do that so we can go out together as a couple"), but you could address her concerns in regards to the logistics of you going alone. For example, go to the support group in drab. And tell her that it's important to you to have such an outlet so that you can discuss your feelings/needs face to face with other like-minded people. Also, I'm absolutely certain that there will facilities at the support group for you to change into feminine clothing, so that you don't need to be dressed while outside in public (to and from the venue).

Even though your sons are never away from home, do try and take heart in her saying that she is ok with you dressing at home (even if it's not really feasible because of your children). Her saying what she did in this respect is at least a sign that she is willing to accept your dressing, even if it's on specific terms. It doesn't seem like a don't ask don't tell scenario, as you are both talking about it and your wife is willing to discuss it, even if she is being pragmatic in her suggestions. Also, in regards to her feeling that your dressing is caused by your depression, maybe you could suggest to her that you are willing to see a therapist to discuss and try and overcome your depression. And once you do, then you could explain to her that your dressing isn't a result of your depression. Maybe it's rather the other way around - that your inability to express your feminine side is the root cause of your depression - if indeed that is the case.

In regards to your comment about her she loves you when you look male, but finds your outward expression of your femininity "irritating", I would take a step back from this and understand that it's natural for your wife to like your masculine appearance (she is married to a man after all). In this respect, it could well serve you well in making a progression with your wife for you to explain to her that while your feminine inside is a part of who you are, you are still the same man, with the same emotions, who she fell in love with.

It could be the case that a resolution (at least the resolution you want) is never attained. But in order to try and resolve it so that both of you are happy, it will take time. And understanding. On both sides. And indeed education.

As things stand, do try not to get down about it. Even if it doesn't feel like it, positive steps have been taken merely by both of you talking about it and both of you being honest in how you feel. Remember, just as you may not like her responses at the moment and are struggling to cope with how she is dealing with it, the exact same could be said of your wife - she may also be struggling to cope with this side of you. The key to trying to overcome such struggles is to keep on communicating, and the biggest part of any successful communication is to listen to the other person. That works both ways, and in that respect, I would approach the next discussion with your wife with that in mind. You will listen to her and hear what she is saying, but in return she has to do the same and listen to you. The first step could be for you to explain that it isn't a cause of your depression/stress, and the best way for you to elicit that is to say that you've never always been depressed and or stressed, but you have always felt feminine inside.

[Cheryl Ann Owens]

Stephy, I started a comment and scrapped it because I didn't want to point out some of the possible implications or problems here. We offer advice at times but we are mostly a support group who can share our experiences for anyone to learn from. That said, I'll share some of my experience.

My first wife was okay with me CDing and she even helped buy clothes and wigs. After our two children came along and were preschool she would spend Sunday afternoons at her mother's with them giving me time for myself to CD. After awhile though our relationship began to deteriorate because I wanted more time to CD. This also led to resentments for both of us, reduced communication, anger over stupid daily issues, and arguments. We ended up in a divorce.

After some therapy, I came to realize that the need to CD can be compared to a disability we're born with or acquire. It has to be accomodated and dealt with. I also found there is no "cure" for most. I know it's a bad analogy and apologize to all here.

Today I'm blessed with a wife who is completely accepting. I can walk around my wooded yard fully dressed in privacy.

What the others have said is all great advice. Is it possible that you could at least underdress without being obvious? Wearing a bra might be, but who knows if you're wearing pantyhose or panties? Would she allow you to shave your legs? These simple things may relieve some of your needs. Consider women's jeans or gender neutral tops. Of course this would need further discussion.

I can't, like others, change who I am. I have to allow myself to be me. I hope this helps. I wish you the best.

Cheryl Ann

[Chickhe]

Sometimes you need to just do it and ask forgiveness later. You need to spend time with your family doing basically normal family things and yet you need to get out and figure out what what's nagging at you. For a while, I thought going to a support group was the thing to do, but when I investigated, the meetings were always on a weekend or evening when I was spending time with my family. It just didn't work. I came to the conclusion, that if I were doing any other activity, I could spend time at it and not feel guilty. Sometimes I combine things I would normally need to do with CDing and its all personal time. That meant it was far enough away from home to not be discovered, changing in frustrating places, spending time just thinking... learning about it. I didn't share every thought or experience with anyone, but I did cross off the things on my bucket list (things that would have made my life feel wasted if I had not done them before my life was over). I asked myself though questions and decided what I needed to do. I also dress up on Halloween as its a great way to remove the shock factor and you get to show everyone how much fun it is. The main thing is self acceptance, realizing it may not be your wife's cup of tea (at that's okay) and realizing you are not alone.

[MatildaJ.]

Hi Steffi,


She had said she was worried about the logistics of it. Where would I get dressed? How would I hide it from our sons? What if someone saw me on the way there? So this evening I asked her about it again, hoping that she would be more open to it

From what you wrote, it sounds like you just asked her again, without looking into any of the fairly reasonable concerns she brought up, and seeing how you could address them. To me, that seems a little like nagging. As others have pointed out, transgender support groups often have changing areas (because many people are in your same situation), so if you can try to bring new information like that to the table before asking again, then it shows her that you're taking her concerns seriously. To me, baby steps are the right approach, rather than trying to determine the final boundaries of what you'll ever be able to do. Good luck!

[MichelleR276]

I attend a monthly meeting 90 miles away. I get a cheap hotel room to change and I can either come home that night or stay over and drive home in the morning. Either way it solves all of her concerns and still allows me to get my needs meet.

[Beverley Sims]

Stephy,
Probably very slowly at this stage.
You could join seahorse and go in drab.
Then you may associate with others who could have the answers you need.
Maybe befriend one of them and get them to meet your wife.

[Leona]

I wouldn't give my wife that much power over me. I insist that I am independent and free and will not compromise on that. There's a line between respecting her feelings and having your trampled, and it appears to me that you've crossed that line. Were it me, my wife and I would have had a fight because I wouldn't have asked for permission. :)

[Princess Grandpa]

It seems to me it should be easy enough to meet your needs as well as address her concerns. If the group has a room you can change in great. If not, get ready en route. I go out every Tuesday with my wife to a tgirlnights event. I can't get ready at home. We stop at a park and ride or mall parking lot. Having left my house underdressed, a quick change in the car and I'm good to go. Granted I have Julie to help with my make up and that's huge, I have read from many girls how they do their make up in the rear view mirror.

On a more important note. Take her out for a date night. If there is someone who will watch the kids on e a week/month/quarter whatever you can manage. I know it's hard, if funds are super tight pack a picnic. Watch the sunset. Make her feel special.

Hug
Rita

[Stephanie47]

The life you are describing as a married man and a cross dresser are no different than the vast majority of men and women. Firstly, forget the cross dressing angle for a minute. You and your wife need to have COUPLES time without any kids in tow. Haven't you heard of swapping child care/babysitting time with friends and neighbors? Not having COUPLES time will make any marriage stagnant, especially if the woman is stuck at home caring for kids all the time. Get her out of the house. You don't need to spend a lot of money. A trip to a local coffee house, a walk in the park or on a beach, anything where you hold hands, cuddle and smooch.

As to the cross dressing, please pay attention to your wife's concerns. Cross dressing is NOT a mainstream activity. When I needed some femme time due to stress, I called in sick. The kids were in school. My wife was at work. Your boys should develop some sort of relationship where they can stay over night at a friend's house. That falls into the same category at swapping child care. Wouldn't you think the other mom's and dad's would jump at a chance to be childless for an evening. Wink! Wink!

Your wife's fears are well founded and not unusual. If it becomes common knowledge that you cross dress, then be prepared for some fallout. Sure, you can say "I don't give a crap!" But, how will the interactions of your wife and boys be in their circle of friends, relatives and acquaintances? The quickest way to a divorce is to shove cross dressing down her throat.

There has been valid suggestions as to approaching your needs. Go to the support group en drab. Or call. Ask what accommodations are available to dress. You cannot be the only man in this situation. Heck, many men have the same fears as their wives when it comes to dealing with friends, relatives and neighbors.

And, don't expect your wife to completely accept your cross dressing. Don't unilaterally push the limits. Frankly, it seems you have a lot more understanding wife than a lot of us. At least you're talking about it without throwing dishes around.

[Emogene]

One thought that hasn't been mentioned yet this evening; see if she is willing to join the forum, make a few posts, and starting communicating with others who are in, or have been in, her position. At least she will have information from a third party to consider offered by someone who has already gone through the struggles she is facing.

[ErinSassyPants]

Definitely see if she is willing to join the forum and then join us in the FAB forum.

Also, I think that if you make sure that you show her that this is not more important than your relationship with her it will help. So before you ask to have the kids stay somewhere else for you to dress see if you guys can start finding a way to go out together.

Sounds like her concern about the support group was you being seen, so if you can take care of that(don't go dressed, or dress there) maybe that will show her that it is important enough to you that you will work on her concerns, that it's not going away but also that you do respect her concerns. The best way to show someone they are being unreasonable is to take every reasonable option to address their concerns.

Then I would wonder is there some reason you can't dress after the kids are in bed? Most bedrooms have a lock on the door so that small people don't wander in when its adult time.

[Stephy]

Thanks for all the suggestions.

I think the first step is to make more couple time for ourselves. It has been difficult being in a new city with no family to help out, but we just need to put in some effort to arrange something.
I will find out if there is a place to change at the seahorse club - that should help address my wife's concerns, and I guess I could go in drab the first few times if necessary.
Our bedroom door unfortunately has no lock and it is a rental so we can't change it - the landlord is ultra strict - wouldn't even let us put screws up to hang paintings. Plus our boys are teenagers now and go to bed quite late. There is not much time after they are asleep to dress up. By the time I got ready, I would need to be getting to sleep.
I am reluctant to just try things like wearing nylons one night and gauging her reaction. I tried that with nail polish and it didn't work out too well - see my other post. I do wear lace panties occasionally though and she is kind of used to that. I did ask her what she would think about me shaving my legs - she just said "Why would I want to do that?". I tried to explain that it would help me feel better about myself, but she doesn't understand and just says it must be related to my depression. It annoys me because she acts like she is my therapist and has all the answers.

Hugs Steffi

[jenni_xx]

I tried to explain that it would help me feel better about myself, but she doesn't understand and just says it must be related to my depression. It annoys me because she acts like she is my therapist and has all the answers.

Hugs Steffi

That must be frustrating for you. But I imagine that it must also feel the same way for your wife. The key phrase here is "she doesn't understand". I would say that the first thing you have to do is to make her realise that she doesn't understand. To do that doesn't mean that you have to provide all the answers, but merely have to make her understand that the answers she is providing are not the right ones in your case. Sometimes it's incredibly difficult for us to verbalise our own emotions, to get them out and contextualise them so that the person we are relating them to does fully understand. And that can be incredibly frustrating. But you can take a step back from this and still achieve your goal. The suggestion put forward by Emogene and Erin is a great one in this respect. Suggest to her to join the forum and read and learn about other people's experiences. Make it clear to her that in joining the forum, that doesn't mean that she has to focus on what other crossdressers have to say, but in joining the FAB section, rather that she can read and learn about it from the experience of wives/partners who can explain it, not from the perspective of a cd, but from her own perspective. Suggesting it that way may make joining seem like a more attractive proposition to her.

You could essentially phrase it in such a way that appeals to her sensibilities. For example, you could suggest that her misunderstanding doesn't stem from, for want of a better word, her own "failure" to understand you, but from your failure to be able to communicate your feelings successfully to her. Phrasing it in such a way can break down a boundary, as it suggests that you are not putting any blame on her, but rather upon yourself. This may result in her feeling more sympathetic towards you. Also, it will show that you are taking her feelings into account, and that will only be a good thing from where she is standing.

You may feel that you don't want her to join the forum because that will mean that she will come across your posts. I would fully understand that you wouldn't want her to see your posts. In this respect, maybe there could be a way that the admin could hide/delete your posts to avoid this possibility. Or if the logistics of that are too difficult, or that you don't want to hide your identity here (because you need this place as an outlet for yourself), you could do some research and find a site that you are not affiliated to that approaches this from the perspective of a wife/partner. I would also suggest to you that until she finally understands your reasons for wanting to crossdress (that's just fully understanding your reasons, not necessarily having to accept them), that you will take a step back and not dress or ask to dress during this time. Call it your sacrifice to her - all you ask in return is that she sacrifices her own preconceptions/misgivings about you and tries to understand it from your perspective.

[Raychel]

Hello there Stephy
I sure do know what it is like, not have time to dress, or alone time with your SO.
We have a house full of teenagers all the time. I over the course of the last year
told everyone that may be coming into this house and staying over, that I crossdress.
Saturday and Sunday mornings are my Raychel time, if they are going to be here there
is a possibility that they may see me dressed up. Like it or not,that is the way it is. This
is my house and that is the way it is.

I am not saying that it will work for you. But that is what I did. Now life is almost where I
would like it to be, I still get my Raychel time, if the house is full or not. Still no quite time with my wife though:doh::doh:

[suchacutie]

Finding private time for any activities with teenage children in the house is hard. Add to that the balance between time being with your spouse as husband and wife vs time as your femme self and there is the potential for misunderstanding and tension. It is so easy for each spouse to feel feel taken for granted or to feel ignored.

My suggestion is to reconfirm to move forward even more strongly as a couple so that the strength from that relationship can support the needs of your femme self with your wife's support. If your wife is still reluctant you will have a better understanding of the situation.

[MatildaJ.]

find a site that you are not affiliated to that approaches this from the perspective of a wife/partner.

There's a yahoo group, engender_partners, which is for partners of people on the transgender spectrum. It has been very helpful to me, both as a place to post questions, and also just as a resource, reading back through ten years of discussions. Most wives have similar issues with this stuff, and so reading about twenty other people's experiences is very helpful in framing my own approach to my marriage and my husband's situation.

Also, Steffi said (sorry, I don't yet know how to quote a second poster): "Our bedroom door unfortunately has no lock and it is a rental so we can't change it"

Since they're not babies, you can just remind your teenagers not to come into your room without knocking and waiting to be invited in. Since they're teenagers, they probably also appreciate their own privacy. You could have a family meeting to remind people of these common courtesies. That issue will be helpful not just for your own crossdressing but also for your intimacy with your wife.

One more thing: maybe it would help if you started seeing a therapist experienced with gender issues. Your wife might take your needs more seriously if you could say "my therapist says I need three evenings a week to dress as a woman." Or maybe it would get her to see a therapist of her own, which would probably be a good thing for your marriage.

[Princess Grandpa]

One thought that hasn't been mentioned yet this evening; see if she is willing to join the forum, make a few posts, and starting communicating with others who are in, or have been in, her position. At least she will have information from a third party to consider offered by someone who has already gone through the struggles she is facing.

This was suggested to my wife and I. As soon as she joined it occurred to me I don't have the ability to talk freely if I feel the need to talk about her. /shrug. I thought it would be a good source of information and support for her but she didn't feel she really benefitted by her time here. Some of the posts you have made and some of the ones you may need to make in the future could add fuel to a fire.

Hug
Rita

[jenni_xx]

maybe it would help if you started seeing a therapist experienced with gender issues. Your wife might take your needs more seriously if you could say "my therapist says I need three evenings a week to dress as a woman." Or maybe it would get her to see a therapist of her own, which would probably be a good thing for your marriage.

Possibly. Or if she's stuck in her mindset, she may just dismiss what the therapist has to say.

In this situation, the more I think about it, the more I think that Steffy's wife has to find out more about this on her own. The question, the problem, is, is she willing to do that?

[Zylia]

When the kids go to bed put on a pair of nylons, put back on your normal jeans sit in your chain and let her notice you have them on. See want the feed back is going to be like. May tell you a little more want your next move is going to be.
I'm not sure if that's such a great idea, considering Stephy's wife already freaked out (and probably rightfully so) over a couple of painted toenails. Purely the suggestion that you might be doing more of this sneaky hidey stuff may not be really smart. 'Taking it slower' should probably be not dressing at all until you have a set of boundaries everybody can live with. There's not really a point Stephy can prove by notably 'secretly' wearing a pair of nylons.

[Princess Grandpa]

Thanks for all the suggestions.

I think the first step is to make more couple time for ourselves. It has been difficult being in a new city with no family to help out, but we just need to put in some effort to arrange something..

Truth! First and most important step. It's tough I know.

Hug
Rita

[MatildaJ.]

As soon as she joined it occurred to me I don't have the ability to talk freely if I feel the need to talk about her. /shrug.

Rita, that's a good point. Which is why it might be better for Steffi's wife to join a different group instead, one where she feels free to speak openly and where she doesn't have to run across Steffi's posts about their situation.

[Stephy]

I found out that the Seahorse society does have facilities to get dressed on the premises. I told my wife last night and she said she is happy for me to go to meetings, provided I change in and out of my femme clothes there. I think that is great progress - I had half suspected that she would come up with another reason for me not to go. So I have paid my membership fee and am looking forward to going to a meeting. We have also decided that we will find someone to look after the boys and go on a "date" together this weekend.

Several of the posts here have mentioned that we should see a therapist. I have been seeing a psychologist for several months now. I have asked my wife to come with me, but she says the psychologist is too difficult to get to (being in the CBD near my work). I may have to consider finding one closer to home.

I may suggest to my wife that she joins this forum. That's why I changed my avatar - she would not be happy with me using an actual photo. I've just got to consider whether it will be awkward seeing each others posts and we may not feel as free to express our feelings if we know our partner will be reading them too.

Hugs
Steffi

[MysticLady]

I may suggest to my wife that she joins this forum. That's why I changed my avatar - she would not be happy with me using an actual photo. I've just got to consider whether it will be awkward seeing each others posts and we may not feel as free to express our feelings if we know our partner will be reading them too.


Hi Steph, I'm glad too hear that the wife is supporting you. It'll be great once she gets this insecurity behind her and trust her husband. And Back Him Up.

[Princess Grandpa]

I'm glad there was no further objections to the support group. Hopefully it gives you an outlet to explore this side of yourself while at the same time showing her that you are sensitive to her concerns. Doing things as a couple with some degree of regularity is an important step. It's easy for couples to get o busy surviving they sort of forget why they got married to begin with.

Things look like they're progressing positively for you.

Hug
Rita

[ErinSassyPants]

That sounds like wonderful progress!

Though I think that changing therapists because it's a challenge for her to get to seems like odd priorities for her to have to me. If the therapist you are working with works for you than that is far more important than how hard it is to get there. Maybe that's just me.

I hope she does join us, let her know about the FAB group so she knows that she'll have a private place she can go to ask questions of the other wives.

[MatildaJ.]

I found out that the Seahorse society does have facilities to get dressed on the premises. I told my wife last night and she said she is happy for me to go to meetings, provided I change in and out of my femme clothes there. I think that is great progress .... she says the psychologist is too difficult to get to (being in the CBD near my work). I may have to consider finding one closer to home.

Congrats on finding a way to make both of you happy -- that's the best. You get to go to meetings en femme, and your wife doesn't have to worry about the boys or your neighbors seeing you on the way out.

As for the psychologist, maybe you could keep seeing the one you like, and she could come once to hear that perspective, but then your wife could go to a therapist closer to where you live?

[Jazzmine]

Stephanie your advice is superb and very much on the money. Well said. It's so easy to get impatient with the world when the pink fog hits and you want it all to happen now. But alas, your prior commitments get in the way.
Taking baby steps toward your CD goals can be turned into so much fun! As they say in Kaizen: 1% improvement every day gives you 100% in 100 days (less actually but let's not split hairs), and that's a very short time!:battingeyelashes:

[Zylia]

I may suggest to my wife that she joins this forum. That's why I changed my avatar - she would not be happy with me using an actual photo. I've just got to consider whether it will be awkward seeing each others posts and we may not feel as free to express our feelings if we know our partner will be reading them too.
Just as a side note, it's really not that hard to find and read someone's posting history, especially when you got your first 10 posts, so if you really worried about the things you said and did here, it might be better to come clean about that before suggesting your wife to join. On top of that, she can read this anyway without ever signing up because this section is public, she just needs to know where it is.

[Jazzmine]

Shaving of legs ... I took up competitive road cycling for a couple of years and still cycle most days now. So .... I just had to shave those legs to race with the boys and oops I forgot to stop shaving them after I stopped racing.

Oh well, it's a habit and you never know I might just take up racing again, in 2030 :battingeyelashes:

And let's not forget you get a fine set of slender but shapely legs when you get race fit. It would be a great shame to let hairy stuff get all over them and make them look so untidy, wouldn't it?::D