I could have seriously hurt him

[BillieAnneJean]

Last weekend I was out in Grand Rapids, MI. There is a club on Division Street that caters to the gay crowd. It is also a great place to go when I am dressed. They treat me very well in there. Lots of humor at the bar. Probably born of adversity.

The name of the street is appropriate.

The west side of Division is primarily clubs and restaurants but has at least one free food kitchen.

The east side of Division has a few homless shelters.

Behind the clubs on the west side of Division are some more large homeless shelters.

Behind the homeless shelters on the est side of Division are some areas going upscale.

So here I am in the middle of a mixture of the human race. You can see what I was wearing in the photo.

An ethnic of slim build approached me as I was walking to the club. He was obviously challenged in the social graces because his first contact with me was to proposition me. Now I could have easily caused him great pain and harm. He would have never expected a head lock from a woman or a fist in his face, maybe a knee in his crotch. I could have made him feel uncertain of his own sexual orientation by answering in my deepest male voice. But I just responded like a lady and crossed the street to group of less threatening persons. And had a nice evening.

I don't care, I still am having a GREAT time with this. Get OUT! Have FUN! Do NOT let them win!!!!

[ReineD]

He was obviously challenged in the social graces as he propositioned me. Now I could have easily caused him great pain and harm.

How were you dressed?

I'm by no means suggesting that women deserve to be raped or abused when they dress in suggestive clothing, of course men need to be self-controlled if the woman says no. But, women who dress a certain way will send more signals than women who do not dress in a sexy manner. We all know this, and some of us do use this to our advantage if we want attention from men.

Maybe this guy just thought that you were available based on the way that you were dressed? If you were not sending signals by your choice of clothing, then this guy was seriously out of line for asking.

[Madeline80]

Congratulations for handling that so gracefully. I imagine that attractive ladies face that situation regularly. As a guy, where I used to live, I was approached by gay men many times. I just grew a thick skin and didn't take it as an affront to my "masculinity."

[Kate Simmons]

I have no problem invoking my guy muscles when out if necessary. This gal is no fading petunia for sure. ;):)

[Rogina B]

I am confused and befuddled as to what exactly was said because you didn't tell us.It couldn't have been very upsetting as you went on to enjoy the rest of the night...Not so sure you were threatened..Asking if someone is "working" usually isn't grounds for a street fight!

[Angela Campbell]

It doesn't sound like a part of town I would ever go by myself and maybe not even with others.

[mikiSJ]

What is an ethnic?

[jenni_xx]

Congratulations for handling that so gracefully.

Congratulations on handling what so gracefully? A man approached Billie, and in Billie's words "propositioned" her? Does such an action warrant, in the words of the OP, a "head lock", or a "fist in his face", or "maybe a knee in his crotch"?

Forgive me, but I don't think it does.

[Ms. Laura]

Well, she didn't knee anyone in the groin, so yes, she controlled herself. Turning to violence when not attacked could only come out poorly.

There is just a percentage of guys who are horny and think that all guys dressed like women are also as horny as they are. I doubt the person intended offense, they just can't get their heads around a male identifying/presenting as female. Probably just ignorance of the concept that NO, we are NOT all pervs!

You looked nice by the way.

[Lynn Marie]

A man propositioned you. To me that would be a sort of a compliment. I'd be honored that he thought I looked good enough to take home tonight. I wouldn't be afraid to go inside the club and have a drink with him as long as I made sure he understood that "I'm just not that kind of girl". I sure wouldn't be offended in the least. I like men, I are one!

[Stephanie Miller]

Depends what he said. Unless he came right out and said something like "do you charge by the trick or by the hour?", then it could have just been his not so subtle way of trying to score with any chick.
If he took the rejection and just walked away I may have just taken it as a weird compliment - in a way.
There are lots of people - no matter the ethnicity - that are clueless on the art of being tactful.

[Wildaboutheels]

I think it is a SERIOUS mistake to judge people based on their LOOKS don't you? Just because HE was of slim build??? Do you know for a fact that he might not be some type of black belt? Did you know that your fist to the face would not be followed with him drawing a gun?

I don't believe it is EVER wise to judge someone based on their looks.

[Flent]

What is an ethnic?

I can probably guess what an ethnic is, but that was my reaction too. Funny to see in a thread related to diversity and not judging by appearances.

[MysticLady]

Hi Billie Anne

I think you did the right thing. But, you're right, you must be on guard constantly. Just like any GG. When I'm out en femme, I constantly have my guard up, just in case. If I'm going too get beat up, I guarantee you that I will get in a few power slugs. I'm always ready to kick the heels off and bust out some ninja turtle moves on them:heehee: I don't care what anyone says, I'm there dealing w/ them, and your not. So there :p

[I Am Paula]

You got hit on, rather ungracefully. Is there more to the story?

[Kelly DeWinter]

Reine !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I had to read your post 6-7-8-9 times before I believed you actually wrote this ! Tell me you were drinking heavily and that someone else grabbed your keyboard and hit the send button !


You really asked

" How were you dressed? "

For years or at least since Woodstock men have had it drilled into them that no matter what a woman wears men have to have 'self control', now you ... a woman are admitting to the whole world that "some of us do use this to our advantage if we want attention from men."

Feminists would crucify a man for asking " How were you dressed? " Even the smallest suggestion that a woman's mode of dress has anything to do with how they are perceived sexually has gotten men fired, careers ruined and so on.

Personally I whole heatedly agree with what you said, although Gloria Steinem has probably already revoked your right to burn your Bra Card.

Kelly

[mikiSJ]

I can probably guess what an ethnic is, but that was my reaction too. Funny to see in a thread related to diversity and not judging by appearances.

I also have a fair idea of what an "ethnic" is. I once worked for a manager (1975) who left the Grand Rapids area and moved to the Silicon Valley because there was too much of particular religion living in the area. (They weren't Muslim BTW!).

[RebeccaLynne]

So here I am in the middle of a mixture of the human race. You can see what I was wearing in the photo.


How were you dressed?

Reine, I believe the OP was dressed as shown in her photo.


I'm by no means suggesting that women deserve to be raped or abused when they dress in suggestive clothing, of course men need to be self-controlled if the woman says no. But, women who dress a certain way will send more signals than women who do not dress in a sexy manner. We all know this, and some of us do use this to our advantage if we want attention from men.

Maybe this guy just thought that you were available based on the way that you were dressed? If you were not sending signals by your choice of clothing, then this guy was seriously out of line for asking.

I certainly don't see anything in her photo that I would consider inappropriate or scandalous. I think the male in question was simply propositioning her to see if he'd "get lucky".

I remember reading in Playboy a long time ago about a guy that would just approach women and ask if they'd like to f***. He claimed one in ten took him up on it... :eek:

I'm wondering whether or not she responded verbally... did you, BillieAnneJean? If so, what did you say?

[ReineD]

Reine !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I had to read your post 6-7-8-9 times before I believed you actually wrote this ! Tell me you were drinking heavily and that someone else grabbed your keyboard and hit the send button !


You really asked

" How were you dressed? "

... although Gloria Steinem has probably already revoked your right to burn your Bra Card.

LOL. Gloria Steinhem was a Second Wave feminist. Third Wave feminists will tell you that we have a choice. We can choose to dress in a sexy manner in order to attract men ... or not. And no one should criticize us for either choice.

HOWEVER, we need to be real with ourselves as to what type of messages we send when we present a certain way. Someone who is covered up or dressed in loose clothing will not get the same reactions from men as someone who emphasizes her bust, her behind, and her legs. lol. All women know this and it is foolish to think otherwise. :p

... but someone above suggested that the man in question might have been attracted to the OP specifically because (s)he was a man in a dress, which I hadn't thought of and which is an entirely different kettle of fish. Very little is known and understood in our society about alternative genders, and it is unfortunate that currently, a lot of people not involved in our community believe that men who dress as women do so for sexual fetish reasons, and if they are in public it is because they are looking for action?

[Kelly DeWinter]

How were you dressed?

I'm by no means suggesting that women deserve to be raped or abused when they dress in suggestive clothing, of course men need to be self-controlled if the woman says no. But, women who dress a certain way will send more signals than women who do not dress in a sexy manner. We all know this, and some of us do use this to our advantage if we want attention from men.

Maybe this guy just thought that you were available based on the way that you were dressed? If you were not sending signals by your choice of clothing, then this guy was seriously out of line for asking.


LOL. Gloria Steinhem was a Second Wave feminist. Third Wave feminists will tell you that we have a choice. We can choose to dress in a sexy manner in order to attract men ... or not. And no one should criticize us for either choice.

HOWEVER, we need to be real with ourselves as to what type of messages we send when we present a certain way. Someone who is covered up or dressed in loose clothing will not get the same reactions from men as someone who emphasizes her bust, her behind, and her legs. lol. All women know this and it is foolish to think otherwise. :p

... but someone above suggested that the man in question might have been attracted to the OP specifically because (s)he was a man in a dress, which I hadn't thought of and which is an entirely different kettle of fish. Very little is known and understood in our society about alternative genders, and it is unfortunate that currently, a lot of people not involved in our community believe that men who dress as women do so for sexual fetish reasons, and if they are in public it is because they are looking for action?

OK, so I'm just asking .................................................. for all the men in the world who see what they would consider "in their own opinion" an invitation to strike up a conversation based on a woman's choice of clothing, you are as a woman giving the feminist golden STAMP OF APPROVAL" :)

you know i'm just provoking a response here :)

[patti.jean]

Good choice at least you are not in jail, I have been going to that club and part of Grand Rapids for years and have received some “complements” but they mean no harm. I was just at the club last Sunday night. Your reaction to him says more about you then him, you have no idea how this person feels or their life experience. You are looking at this from your privileged place in life.

Grand Rapids, Michigan has been praised in Fortune, Money, and other publications as a great Midwest City and after spending only a few minutes downtown on a weekend night you would see why. The city comes alive with many venues for restaurants, bars, entertainment, and sporting events. I have been to most of the popular places in the city as Patti with no problem.

South Division where this club is located is another renaissance area in the city that is evolving. The homeless shelters are actually a few blocks south of the club and have very good reputations for severing the community. The area where the club is located is a mixed use neighborhood with two upscale restaurants next to the club, the Rockwell's/Republic (I have been to them both and they have good reviews), there is a fine community art museum two blocks away the “Urban Institute of Contemporary Art”. There are a mix of upscale and market apartments in the area, with many more under construction, the area has a shortage of apartments. Also South Division has several art galleries many are lofts with resident artist. Several times over the summer they have a street art show in the area that is fun.

One last note; when I go to the area I either park behind Pub 43 which is free, if a spot is available, or in the parking ramp behind the club. The parking ramp is also a mixed use building with the parking ramp on one side and the other side has upscale apartments, office space, and restaurants all next to some of the best bars and entertainment in the city. The apartments in the building are great and you have the convenience of parking your car next to your apartment on all floors.

I would love to show anyone around Grand Rapids if they ever get a chance to make it to our great city,

Patti

[BillieAnneJean]

Patti,
Your first paragraph makes some assumptions.

When I was a kid, we scrounged trash in the alley to burn in the Franklin fireplace to keep warm in the winter. We hung blankets over the door openings to the adjacent rooms to keep the heat in the room with the stove because there were no doors. I usually did not get any new toys for Christmas as we could not afford it. My Mom cleaned up rummage sale toys for our gifts. The house had roof teaks and I remember my mom pasting grocery bags over the holes in the plaster to keep the cold air out. We ate a lot of potato soup. Instead of candy, we had cabbage heart or a slice of raw potato. I know the feeling of being shunned as poor trash. I had to work my way through high school. I bought my own clothes, car, gas, insurance. When I got out of the service the only job I could find was washing dishes in a hospital. I made $7 less a week than if I went on welfare. I had enough money to pay my rent and enough for gas. The ladies in the kitchen kept me fed. They were like my moms and sisters. When I was going to get married, I invited them all. But my father in law flipped out and I was not allowed to invite anyone except my immediate family. I had to go back to those black ladies, and they WERE ladies, and tell them that I could not invite anyone. I had to work my way through college. I remember when the total asset I had was a nineteen cent box of macaroni and cheese. I had to ask the college to let me slide a week or two until I could earn enough to pay my tuition. When I graduated I had $5.00 to last two weeks. In grade school I was beat up by the Jewish kids, the German kids, and finally in high school by the black kids. We moved a lot and the predominate group had to assert their authority. But I raised my children to not see color and their lives are all the much better for it.

I know far better than most what it is to be hungry, with no prospect any time soon for financial gain. I know what it is to have to scrounge for work. I never had a safety net, a guaranteed check.

Believe me I KNOW what it is like to be without. That has driven me my whole life.

I never judge anyone by their appearance. Everyone deserves respect until they prove they don't deserve it. That is why I cut him a wide swath. I behaved like a lady. He behaved in a socially inept manner.

It is unfortunate to assume that just because someone looks prosperous that the person has always been priveledged. It is also unfortunate to assume that the person looks at everyone else from a priveledged place.

Sorry but your first paragraph does require an answer. You are wrong.
Billie

[ReineD]

OK, so I'm just asking .................................................. for all the men in the world who see what they would consider "in their own opinion" an invitation to strike up a conversation based on a woman's choice of clothing, you are as a woman giving the feminist golden STAMP OF APPROVAL" :)

you know i'm just provoking a response here :)


We all do this. We all get a first impression based on how another person looks, it's the only thing we have to go by until we get to know them. Some people scream out, "I want attention", while others give the distinct message, "I'm not interested". I don't know how BillieAnne was dressed, I was going by her avatar, which shows a suggestive pose.

Men are men and if I'm in a clubby part of town at night, dressed in a party outfit that shows off boobs, legs, or tush, the message will be that I'm looking to have some fun. This isn't to say that a man is allowed to touch me. But if he asks if I'm interested, I can't get all insulted. Context is important here. Gosh, if I was to get insulted every time someone came on to me (in my youth) in places like that, I'd have an ulcer. A simple "no, thank you" suffices.

This is why I asked what BillieAnne was wearing.

[Beverley Sims]

What are you wearing? is not a sexist remark, but quite a valid one on Reine's part.
Not entering into Kelly's argument but I think you were appropriately dressed to act like a lady and walk away.

[heatherdress]

We all do this. We all get a first impression based on how another person looks, it's the only thing we have to go by until we get to know them. Some people scream out, "I want attention", while others give the distinct message, "I'm not interested". I don't know how BillieAnne was dressed, I was going by her avatar, which shows a suggestive pose.

Men are men and if I'm in a clubby part of town at night, dressed in a party outfit that shows off boobs, legs, or tush, the message will be that I'm looking to have some fun. This isn't to say that a man is allowed to touch me. But if he asks if I'm interested, I can't get all insulted. Context is important here. Gosh, if I was to get insulted every time someone came on to me (in my youth) in places like that, I'd have an ulcer. A simple "no, thank you" suffices.

This is why I asked what BillieAnne was wearing.

Reine - All your tap dancing is hard to buy. You assertion is that Billie Anne deserved her proposition because of her dress. Sorry, but I do not think that anyone deserves to be propositioned because of their appearance. Male or female.

BTW, BillieAnne appears to have been dresses nicely.

BTW, what is an ethnic?

[Amanda M]

A knee in the crotch, a fist in the face? Gosh I love it when you´re all masterful.......

[ReineD]

Reine - All your tap dancing is hard to buy. You assertion is that Billie Anne deserved her proposition because of her dress.

BillieAnne deserved her position? What happened to BillieAnne? I just thought the guy came on to her. Good Lord ... guys come on to girls all the time.

But again, someone above mentioned that the man in question might have come on to BillieAnne specifically if he read her (him). Sad to say, but lots of admirers troll night club scenes too, and it's gonna happen. The best way to handle all that is to just say no, and move on. That's what I always did. No need to get in an uproar about it. Or, don't hang out in places where this sort of stuff happens. Either way.

For the record, I was more likely to have guys come on to me at night, when I was wearing something sexy, than on Saturday morning when I was making a quick run to the Grocery store wearing flannel pants. :p

[ErinSassyPants]

I can't speak for Reine and I am absolutely against ever asking someone what they were wearing in connection with being harassed or assaulted.

The reality is that if you are female and you dress (well almost any way depending on your body type, age and where you are going), but especially if you dress in a way that is perceived as "sexy" men will hit on you. Some will do it respectfully and some will do it as if they already own a right to your body somehow. It will happen. I don't believe that it's right, or acceptable but it is reality.

So asking what were you wearing could lead to a discussion of the reality of what that may bring without in any way saying what it will bring is ok. I'm not sure if that is where Reine was going but there is a valid point there. I wouldn't address it with clothing to a girlfriend but I have with being out alone at night. I did a reality check about where she would be and when because it was not safe for her to be there. It doesn't mean in any way that it would be her fault if she were attacked, but it is the reality of being a woman in our world that you have to think about these things.

And if you present as a woman YOU need to think of them as well. If getting hit on makes you want to punch people, then my advice is don't dress even remotely attractively. If you go out as a woman you need to think of safety at least as much as a GG and you need to be prepared to be treated like you owe men on the street some of your time and attention(and they expect more the more "sexy" you are dressed) not because it's acceptable that you be treated like that but because that is what we still have to fix about our society.

This is one of my favorite recent blogs. It talks about this http://disruptingdinnerparties.com/2013/07/18/queen-bitch/

[ReineD]

I can't speak for Reine and I am absolutely against ever asking someone what they were wearing in connection with being harassed or assaulted.

The reality is that if you are female and you dress (well almost any way depending on your body type, age and where you are going), but especially if you dress in a way that is perceived as "sexy" men will hit on you.

Thanks for the reinforcement. :)

And further, judging by all the well attended threads about CDers wanting men when they're dressed, I dare say that a good number of our membership go out expressly dressed to get noticed by men.

I would not ask a GG what she was wearing under similar circumstances, because we tend to know the ropes about such things. But, if this was among the OP's first times out, he or she may not be aware that some looks attract more attention than others. And a genetic male who goes out looking like a well endowed female, cannot expect to be treated the same as he would be if he were not CDing.

[lisa_cd]

Wow! I am speechless! This is one of the greatest posts I have ever seen on this site, and I have to say, you are the BEST!

[ReineD]

Lisa, you'd be surprised at some people's expectations. What seems obvious to you may not be to someone else and sometimes it is helpful to spell things out.

[daviolin]

Hi Billie
I'm on the same page there girl. I was outside Pub 43 one time having a cigarette and a street person came up to me and wanted to play with my boobs. I just humored him and had a few laughs. Actually it was kind of a fun experience. It could of got out of hand. But it didn't. I just laughed it off. I guess, if you dress like a girl, you will get treated like a girl. Good or bad. Daviolin

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Billie, You do make a striking photo , No pun intended .

[Donna1391]

Way to go billie I feel U handle it good! Hugs Donna1391

[Kelly DeWinter]

Reine;

I do agree with you whole heatedly, It's hard to get across in writing the tone of what i was saying, it was more like Colbert "Oh NOooooooooo , you don't mean to say ........"

People wear clothes at times to attract attention, display how they feel about themselves as a person, if that were not so we would all be wearing saffron robes made of beaten flax.

[patti.jean]

Billie,
Thanks for your reply to my note; I am sorry if I offended you. I respect that you had the fortitude and capacity to overcome your life challenges, but it does not mean you know anyone’s life experiences. When I refer to you being privileged, I am referring to your ethnicity of being white male, which through history has been privileged in the western world. In your reply, you express a lot of empathy, but there is a lack of empathy when you propose violence.

Please take care,
Patti

[BillieAnneJean]

Patti,
Where does it say I proposed violence? I merely said I could have.
We all are capable of violence. Those with empathy have the capacity but refuse to do so.
You again misjudge me.
All based on your profiling.
I was in an uncomfortable situation and chose non violence as a solution. Please profile off of that.
Billie

[robindee36]

So happy things settled down and the confrontation did not escalate for you. I have to believe it would have been a pretty big shock to the d*** head if you had to best him in fisticuffs.

As I have mentioned in other threads about heels, they are just another tool in one's self defense arsenal. I actually teach how and where to apply them in my self defense courses for women.

You rock sister.

Hugs, Robin

[Ressie]

As PattiJean alluded to, Division goes north and south. I'm glad there are responses from those more familiar with this area than I am as it's been a while since I've been there. But, the history of this area does include prostitution. I don't know if that's changed or not, but I'm thinking it's an important factor here no matter how you were dressed.

BillieAnn, this was nothing more than your fight or flight mechanism kicking in which is completely normal. In the end you chose to flee which was a good decision, but we must be prepared for the other response if necessary.

[Stephanie47]

In my locale, even if you were propositioned for sex, you'd be fighting a charge of four degree assault. You did the right thing not to initiate a physical fight. When I was younger, a lot younger, I was propositioned in less than flattering terms for oral sex while commuting to work on the subway in NYC. Should I have punched beat the crap out of him?

[ReineD]

I was in an uncomfortable situation and chose non violence as a solution.

This may or may not help, but my SO has gone out A LOT in the last seven years or so, alone and with me. S/he tends to dress in a sexier manner for evenings in night clubs (as I do), and wears jeans or slacks and cute tops during the daytime when out for lunch, to coffee shops, or doing errands. The admirers that gather in or around night clubs do come onto her at night, and obviously not during the day in the mainstream since this is not where they look to hook up. Being approached also made her feel uncomfortable. We don't go out to nightclubs so much anymore and really there is no need to, since now she feels comfortable going just about everywhere in the mainstream. Once in a while we'll go see a drag show but when she is with me there is less chance of her being propositioned. It did happen once though, years ago. An admirer sent her a note written on a napkin while we were both sitting at the bar. This was my first exposure to admirers and my eyes were opened big time. :p

So you might want to go out more during the daytime and stay away from night clubs, if being propositioned makes you feel too uncomfortable?

[patti.jean]

Empathy is the ability to understand and share the feelings of another. It is not after the fact expressing what violence you withheld.

This area of Grand Rapids like many cities does have a history of prostitution, but it is ancient history and is no reflection of what the area is like today. I do not want to leave anyone with a bad impression of Grand Rapids or this area.

Patti

[MysticLady]

This area of Grand Rapids like many cities does have a history of prostitution, but it is ancient history and is no reflection of what the area is like today. I do not want to leave anyone with a bad impression of Grand Rapids or this area.

Patti

Don't worry Sweetie, We all have our own area in our own towns that we would like too just put a tarp over when visitors come.

[Lorileah]

Reine - All your tap dancing is hard to buy. You assertion is that Billie Anne deserved her proposition because of her dress. Sorry, but I do not think that anyone deserves to be propositioned because of their appearance. Male or female.


Boy do you not know Reine. She never said the OP DESERVED anything. She was making the point that someone in 6" heels and a 4" skirt is going to get asked something by men. You send out vibes or signals. The OP was alone in a section of town where people who have questionable social skills hang out. In a perfect wold this would not be an issue. However, when you put yourself in a situation, you need to be cognizant of that. In this case the OP was lucky is was only a creep and not a creepy deviant murderer.

The GGs here have all had to learn to deal with that and they KNOW that the easiest way to not have to deal with it s Don't be alone and don't go in areas like that (alone or otherwise usually). When one swims with sharks, one should expect to be eaten.

Clothing aside, I think the main issue here is making yourself a target by being alone. Oh and I don't care how big and macho you are, in heels and a skirt, you will get taken down quickly. It only takes 3 seconds to have someone get the advantage on you.

And c'mon people you know what the OP meant by "ethnic".

[MysticLady]

And c'mon people you know what the OP meant by "ethnic".

A homeless Guy?

[celeste26]

A simple assertive sounding No was not enough?

[Wildaboutheels]

Hookers don't wear flats and granny dresses.

REALITY 101.

[MssHyde]

:confused2:How do we know your really who you think you are?

thanks for sharing, BTW nice look

[Lorileah]

A homeless Guy? Yeah we will go with that... ;)


Hookers don't wear flats and granny dresses.

REALITY 101. Ummm...what do hookers wear. I am sure vice would like that list so they would not have to work so hard. Have you seen hookers? Maybe Denver is different but here they wear jeans and top with sneakers....we are a little laid back though. Most hookers don't dress like in the movies and most you would never give a second look to.

[BillieAnneJean]

Patti,
Actually I withheld violence at the EXACT time of the incident because I prefer to avoid violence any time, regardless of the appearance of the initiating person. That was hardly after the fact as you accuse. Even Jesus Christ could have smashed anyone that he wanted to but he witheld retribution at the EXACT moment of the incidents. Would you chriticize him? A man can be verbally or physically attacked by a woman but even though he has the obviously greater physical force, a good man witholds violence. Would you judge that man negatively also? To please you, is it necessary to take a nonviolent attitude in anticipation of an incident, thereby guaranteeing that the witholding of violence preceeds the incident? That would be profiling. But if not, then everything occurs after the offence. That would be profiling. It seems like no matter what I did or did not do, as long as I was in your beloved Grand Rapids, and as long as something less than optimum happened, and if I record it here, I am a bad person, and you are going to say so on this forum.

You will also note that I find it better to avoid character denunciations on any forum, or anywhere.

Grand Rapids is a great place but it would be better to just make that known than to accuse me of being anything at all unless you do it to my face and not in a public forum. That is just plain impolite.

I had hoped you would realize your error but you persist in smearing me.

This is tiring.

We may run in to each other some time in the future as we are both from the same area. Rather than have a confrontation where you expound on my character faults I have a solution:

You win. I accept your judgements that I am a horrible person. I should have called you immediately so you could tell me what to do as the words came out of his mouth, so it wasn't after the fact.

Billie

[Amy Lynn3]

Billie, you rock girlfriend !!!!

[ErinSassyPants]

I would not ask a GG what she was wearing under similar circumstances, because we tend to know the ropes about such things. But, if this was among the OP's first times out, he or she may not be aware that some looks attract more attention than others. And a genetic male who goes out looking like a well endowed female, cannot expect to be treated the same as he would be if he were not CDing.

Excellent point. I have been rather surprised to notice in my time on this forum so far how different the perspective is of many here from what I would have thought would be easy to notice once someone started to interact with the outside world while presenting as female. It's been an eye opening experience because it's shown me how not obvious things are to those with the privilege. I am learning about my own cis privilege and I'm learning just how unaware people who have lived a life of being perceived as men are of their own privilege.

[Ressie]

Empathy is the ability to understand and share the feelings of another. It is not after the fact expressing what violence you withheld.

This area of Grand Rapids like many cities does have a history of prostitution, but it is ancient history and is no reflection of what the area is like today. I do not want to leave anyone with a bad impression of Grand Rapids or this area.

Patti

Ancient? I'm sure there are people hanging around the area that still have hookers deeply ingrained in their mind from just a few years back. There definitely is still prostitution on Division, maybe not the very block referred to here, but somewhere north of 28th street there are prostitutes to be found.

GR has become a notorious for violent crime in the last few years, mostly in neighborhoods that aren't too far from the area in question. I know there has been a lot of cleaning up, but I'm hearing about shootings quite often in GR.

[patti.jean]

Billie,

You are not a horrible person. I was only correcting the facts, Grand Rapids is a great place. What you did was the right thing to do, but expressing what violence you could do, is not right. You are going to get propositioned if you are on the streets of any city. I was downtown last night by the Plaza Hotel (a five star hotel) and was propositioned. I just smiled and walked on, it happens.

Sorry I offended you.
Patti

[Nicole Erin]

Sometimes things happen. You go out as a woman and there are times you are likely to get flirted with.
With the guy's tactless proposition, a lot of men, even good ones, just have little or no clue how to approach women. It doesn't mean they are malicious, it just means they are clueless.
I see it every time I go anywhere with one of my friends. He is harmless as they come but has a habit of asking cashiers if they want to come over and be a partner for him and his wife. It is rather embarrassing. He would never hurt anyone, he is kind of a dork like that though

[lisa_cd]

You know, I have read the OP several times, and then tried to weave my way through all the subsequent discussions. All Billie did was talk about an experience she had. She obviously didn't relate the entire experience of what happened, of every single word that was spoken.
When I first read this post, I replied that I thought it was the greatest post I had ever seen on here, and I STILL feel that way. Then the second time I went to this post, I saw all the criticism of her, and I didn't even bother reading it in detail, because I thought it was all so ridiculous.
So now, because I have read the posts, I find it not to be ridiculous, but hurtful.
It's that way with any message board you read, on any site, concerning any topic, be it politics, sports, or the price of tea in China. Anyone can just sit at a computer monitor and type whatever they feel, and the only form of repercussion is that someone will reply with another post, and then someone else replies, and so on...I am ashamed of some of the things I have read on this thread. Truly ashamed.
Yeah, I'm a crossdresser...someone who is generally shunned by society. I find this site, and it makes me feel at home with other individuals like me. And then I see posts in reply to what happened to her questioning her decisions or thoughts, and even questioning the use of the word "ethnic."
What would give me the right, to criticize Billie, as to anything she would post, in describing what happened to her, when I wasn't even there? What would give me the right, to sit behind my computer and type whatever comes to mind on the situation? I don't have the right to do that, in whatever post comes along on this site, because I don't know...how...it...would...make...her...feel.
Just about every other post I have seen, on this site, are helpful to people, and supportive of people. Even with looks, or clothing, or whatever, people are helpful, giving suggestions instead of making derogatory remarks. It's how we are. But if you have to, smash me for giving MY opinion.
One thing I can say is a fact; I will be much, much more aware, and careful, of anything I post on this website.
So, to everyone that felt like they could just type away, copy in other people's comments and bang away at the keys...and feel like they had to dissect every word... And that is where this post ends.

[BillieAnneJean]

Lisa,
You are very brave for sticking up for me.
I think that what may have happened is they don`t understand that what i said was i could have done some things. They read it as I considered doing those things. There is a huge difference in acknowledging the capability held in check as opposed to knowing you have the capability and considering doing so. Saying I could have only shows the physical differences, abilities, and the advantage of surprise. It does in no way state that I was about to hurt the cretin. If it is wrong to have the ability to squash someone and not do so then every person bigger than the smallest child is guilty. It is too bad that some chose to delve in to my character faults when I was actually stating i had the physical ability such that I could do something but did not consider it as the proper way to react. But it would have been too much trouble for the critics to ask for a clarification when it is so easy to just poop out something negative.
Anyway thanks.
The odd thing is that one person`s beloved Grand Rapids had a bunch of brawling rowdies shut down a really cool public free outdoor swing dance event at the center of town square. So one person who decided to slam me now has been shown to be in error for what seems to be the trigger for her going after me.
Billie