Men

[ErinSassyPants]

I once asked how everyone feels about women, but a thread I was just reading got me wondering.

What is your opinion of men?

If you have interacted with men presenting as both male and female have your experiences and impressions of men been different?

These questions are for everyone.

[paulaprimo]

i have a new found appreciation for woman now,
because my femme side has showed me that many men
can be rude, inconsiderate and basically a jerk!! :)

[Leona]

Plain and simple. You want to see the worst of it? Post w4m on craigslist casual encounters.

At the same time, men have done some very heroic and worthwhile things. And me being a genetic man, I can't hate all men, because then I'd have to hate myself, and I don't want to do that.

Your stereotypical macho man is a douchebag.

Most other men are quite interesting people who are worth the time it takes to get to know them. They may lack skills in seducing a woman, and they may lack other skills, but it's reasonable to overlook them (especially if you're either not a woman or you're not trying to get laid) and get to know the man as he is.

Honestly, my best friends are currently two men and two women, so obviously I don't hate men on the whole. I just hate how they treat women, even the ones who are supposedly enlightened.

[AllieSF]

I have had nothing but wonderful experiences talking with everyone when out dressed, men, women, gays, lesbians, gender queer and whatever else is out there. Yes, there are some real losers out there from all genders and orientations. I just steer clear of them and get on with life. I am sorry to see that others have such a bad opinion of men. However, I believe that you can not compare a few bad apples to the whole. It just doesn't work that way.

[Angela Campbell]

I do not feel comfortable around men at all. I do not like being around them as a male and certainly not when I am a girl. I am super uncomfortable if they try to hit on me. Yes it is very different when presenting as a man and presenting as myself. As a man they expect me to behave a certain way and seem to not like it much when I do not. As myself they are many times rude and pushy. They tend to stand too close and do not take hints that I do not want to be around them.

Yes men scare me, but then again when growing up none of the girls ever tried to beat me up.

All men are not bad people. My son for instance.

[Zylia]

I don't love or hate men more or less than women in general. I'm not really a "dominant male" man myself (who is on this forum?), but as long as conversations aren't only about sports I can get along nicely. I'm mostly just baffled by the insanely little amount of self-reflection or self-awareness some men (more than women) seem to have.

[suzy1]

I notice a lot of comments criticizing men on this forum. Women criticize them and CD girls criticize them. It almost seems like it’s a part of being a member here!
Well it’s not true. Suzy has had online relationships with a few men [No, don’t ask]:eek: but they are so nice.

And men in my ‘real world’ are also for the most part lovely.

I don’t get all this man bashing?

[Claire Cook]

Suzy, I'm not sure that it is 'man bashing', at least for me. It's just that I'm more comfortable around (other) women, especially when I'm dressed. I've never liked going out with guys (as a guy) to a bar, say, and get embarrassed when they hit on a waitress, or generally act macho. I've never been hit on by a man when dressed, maybe because I avoid situations where that is likely to happen (or they just aren't interested in this old married broad ...)

I have had some very positive experiences with men when dressed. Once I locked myself in my wife's car, and all of the panic lights and beeps went on. This very nice gentleman rapped on the window and told me what to do. I truly felt like a rescued damsel in distress! Some men are wonderful, and others are, well, you fill in the blank.

[Sister Rachel]

Well, I'm a man, I suppose, and so are many good friends of mine, and, like Suzy, I don't like generalised "man bashing". However, since opening up my feminine self more, in the last two or three years, I find that I'm much more aware of how many male colleagues behave toward, and speak of, females, and frankly it can be quite shocking, similar to the underlying casual racism one encounters all too often in conversation. I don't present a female persona to the outside world, so I've no personal experience of harassment or sexism, but I can see it around me all the time now.

So ............ I suppose that if one wished to make a study of coarse, pushy, insensitive people, the group with a Y chromosome would offer much the richer pickings!

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Erin, Plane and simple, All men are not jerks and all jerks are not men.
I have more friends than I can count both men & women.

[GinaD]

Like people in general, there is good and bad everywhere. I enjoy dressing in a manner that gets positive attention from men, but realize there will be some negative as well. Women have been dealing with this forever. After I had my first relationship with a guy, I realized men have their motives, regardless how nice they are, and I was no different. Knowing what I was dealing with gave me the advantage in keeping things in perspective. I enjoy spending time with a man who is respectful, kind, and attentive, just like I enjoy spending time with females with the same traits.

[Sabrina133]

Interesting question Erin. For the most part, most men i interact with whether as friends, colleagues or potential sexual partners - that is before i met my current SO - are hardworking, decent, respectful and caring. Having said that, i've also met some real jerks - my ex boy firend would certainly be one example. Are they like women? No, thats what makes them different.

[kimdl93]

Ive had many conversations with men while en femme. It really hasn't seemed that their behavior towards me was appreciably different than in male mode and really hasn't changed my opinion of men. But it's certainly been a selective sample. I tend to avoid the same men while en femme that I'd avoid in make mode.

[Kelly DeWinter]

Interesting question,

I have never been comfortable around manly men. That is, I don't speak "sports', not into drinking beer, or talking 'cars'. In business , I'm a teambuilder, not a maverick. At home I've allways been the caregiver. So you can imagine in social gatherings I usualy in the kitchen cooking.

[jillleanne]

For the most part, men are pigs. I suppose because their role in live is to rear children. They think with their 'other' brain and we all know how they get along doing that well. Ok, there are a few that have some respect for women but they already have boyfriends.

[Kate Simmons]

People are people. Some men are nice, some are not. Some women are nice, some are not. It really depends on the individual. I do bond better with women than I do with men, however, never been interested in doing "guy things" that much. :)

[NicoleScott]

If these derogatory comments were made about transsexuals or GG's, the thread would be quickly closed.
Why the double standard that allows man-bashing?

[kathyw]

ill prpbely get reamed for this but everyone here is a man and nothing more . we have been raised as boys to man hood. the only difference is we try to look and act like wemon and some pass and others dont we live our live as we see fit to.yes we are shovenest pigs some times but we do care about other we just dont show it,because we are not suppbes to show a weaknes.im still a man and im proud of it and i do dress every day.so when you talk about men look in the mirr

[suzy1]

Yep, you will get reamed!

I will go first:heehee:

[kathyw]

you look realy happy in your pic i only wish i could look as good as half the girls on here. suzy ill be waittng lol.

[VAWyman]

I find that I interact with GG much better than with men. For some reason I think that MM hide behind a facade of bravado that only allow those that are heavily into sports or whatever they consider "macho" into their inner manhood. Part of the problem is that I tend to "touch" other people. Not in a sexual way, I will just reach out and touch a shoulder or their arm. If I am with some GG friends, they understand and I can put my arm around them, still in a non-sexual way. If I were to touch another guy, I would probably get decked. I find that women are easier to relate to, are more open with their feelings. For that reason, I tend to associate with women more. I have to be careful, tho. My wife understands that I prefer to be with women, and she keeps an eye on me to make sure I don't go overboard. She'll tell me subtly to "rein it in."

[MysticLady]

I am super uncomfortable if they try to hit on me. .

Hi Ellen, I agree w/ you there. I can hang w/ the Big Boys, just don't touch me...Yuk


So you can imagine in social gatherings I usualy in the kitchen cooking.

That's me also Kelly. I can cook for an army, as long as I have my brewskis:D


For the most part, men are pigs. I suppose because their role in live is to rear children. .

Hi Jilleanne, I believe your right, up until they finally realize or learn how to Love. I remember I was a pig( because some girlfriends told me so:sad:) but now, I'm just a looney( according too my wife:heehee:). BTW. I think that it's a wife's job to rear her children.:straightface:. I can already feel the Daggers coming my way:heehee:

[Tina B.]

I like men, my dad was one, so was my big brother, and both of my sons are men, Yeah, I like men, and have known many good ones. I prefer the company of women, I enjoy the conversation more, but I have nothing against the guys.

[julia marie]

Men, like women, are all different in one way or another, some good some bad. I had an interesting couple of hours the other night when I had my longest time dressed outside the house. It was a trip to Walmart and McDonalds. On the negative side, a couple of women nudged each other, stared and giggled when I walked by. I giggled too because while I was an overweight and not-so-pretty girl, they were outright fat and ugly. I took that as a win. A positive: I almost crashed shopping carts with a guy. He waved me past and smiled at me. I actually found myself thinking he was nice and kind of cute. Another positive: In the ladies room at McD's a girl employee came in while I was washing my hands. She looked at me, smiled and said hello. Different rules in the ladies room; in the mens room guys don't even make eye contact, let alone smile.

[Lynn Marie]

Wow, this thread really surprised me. I'm simply amazed at the vitriol expressed here against men. What a weird dichotomy, men in dresses condemning men in pants! As both a gentleman and a gentle woman, I find this completely ludicrous.

[Jorja]

I have many male friends, colleagues, and lovers. Some are super macho some are quite femme. All of my friends and lovers are exactly what I need them to be because I invest the time to chose wisely whom I surround myself with. Most of my acquaintances appear to be friendly but are held within arms length until I determine whether or not they enter my circle.

[Dana L]

I've always been more comfortable around women. Not that men are bad or something but ever since I can remember at any kind of gathering I always seem to end up the only guy sitting and talking with the women. When I hang around with men I feel like I'm always tying to fit in and relate to them. It's like being the office person tying to hang out with the shop workers. The only time out as Dana was at Halloween 2012 when I was dressed as a french-maid. It seemed all the women loved it and would hang around with me and want their picture taken with me. I got so many compliments that night I never wanted it to end. As for the guys I didn't receive much negative reactions so much as as the "OMG dude that's not right" except one that kept asking me if I really was a guy.

[MysticLady]

Men:yawn: those guys are always horny:heehee:

[Beverley Sims]

Erin,
I have a preference for womens company, I never forget that I am a man and as such do not call other men jerks or other such denigrating names.
Most do not understand CD ers and I always give them the benefit of the doubt even to laughing and agreeing to some of their redneck type jokes.
male company does compliment us as we need it if we are to have a normal female to male relationship.
My impressions are not much different dressed either way.

[Sabrina133]

Nicely said Jorja - then again, i treat women the same.

[Lorileah]

Lets keep this general and civil OK?



I don’t get all this man bashing?


If these derogatory comments were made about transsexuals or GG's, the thread would be quickly closed.
Why the double standard that allows man-bashing?

I agree it is borderline and I will edit those that seem to go overboard. Just as we do when threads get snippy about GGs But the majority of the comments here have been moderate.

Most men are good. Most men are transparent as to intent though. My track record has covered the gambit. One real jerk, one real cad and a couple really nice guys. Several honest enough to say what they are thinking (ie "I just want to sleep with you one night, then never again" and "I don't want a relationship I just want a friend who will have sex with me") Hey at least it was honest. :) Men and women are for the most part good I think. Just when they try and follow a pre marked path that things go wrong

[whowhatwhen]

ill prpbely get reamed for this but everyone here is a man and nothing more . we have been raised as boys to man hood. the only difference is we try to look and act like wemon and some pass and others dont we live our live as we see fit to.yes we are shovenest pigs some times but we do care about other we just dont show it,because we are not suppbes to show a weaknes.im still a man and im proud of it and i do dress every day.so when you talk about men look in the mirr

This site is frequented by some transsexuals as well, some even in this very thread and they might take offense to being called a man.

On manbashing:
Don't even think that the tiny amount of manbashing here is anywhere close to the crap that GGs and TSs face by simply existing, for example it's understandable for someone forced into masculinity to be a bit bitter about men in general.
Men still have it pretty easy everywhere else in life, don't worry.

Content:
To me, most men are just average, blending into the background.
The ones I notice are either bubbly and full of life and confidence, or are acting like a loudmouth jerk which honestly scares me quite a bit.

I don't know if men are more crass in general or not, but they're certainly more willing to display it publicly.

[Frédérique]

What is your opinion of men? If you have interacted with men presenting as both male and female have your experiences and impressions of men been different?

I have never interacted with men when I am “presenting” as a woman. I have no need to, for I am not attracted to men, no matter how I may be dressed. I wouldn’t interact with women (whilst dressed) either, mainly because my MtF crossdressing is a solitary exercise that requires NO participation from anyone outside of my incorporated self. However, you need to know that I am very much a loner, and interactions with other human beings are minimal, except for my sister, whom I live with. Crossdressing is a very private thing, for me, and I keep it that way...

What is my opinion of men? I happen to be male, and I’m a lot more interested in men that I used to be – not sexually, mind you, just INTERESTED. Oddly enough, being on this site, discussing our mutual MtF crossdressing desires, has changed my opinion of males over time. I am no longer automatically repulsed by certain types of male behavior, but I recognize the insecurity that is inherent in all men. I should know. Crossdressing has helped me to see from the other side, no doubt about it. M and F are pretty similar, I feel, and the gender divide is imaginary (or constructed), a tool employed by society to ensure procreation, but don’t get me started...

In short, men are OK. I especially like men who have the courage to be different...:clap:

So it comes that Man, the coward,
when he gathers to confer
with his fellow-braves in council
dare not leave a place for her.
(Rudyard Kipling)

[Sister Rachel]

"I'm just standing in a doorway,
I'm just trying to make some sense ..

Of all these women passing by,
The things they say of men ..

I'm not waiting on a lady,
I'm just waiting on a friend"

[arbon]

I know some really good guys, and I know a lot of real jerks. I would have a hard time every trusting a man in a serious relationship.

My feeling, perception, of men since transitioning has changed a lot but I don't know how to put it into the right words to make sense.

I have only been around one person that was a crossdressers that I saw presenting both ways. When he was presenting male I was put off by it. I just did not want to hang out with a guy that night.

[Leona]

I definitely have attitudes about men that derive directly from the fact that so many men either don't see the male privilege that's prominent in our society, or they believe it should be there because it's the natural order, or because it's tradition, or whatever. Or they counter that male privilege exists, but so does female privilege and then rattle off the list of things women get by way of their privilege.

It's sickening, really. The casual sexism and misogyny...

At the same time, it's hard to say that that particular trait in a stereotypical macho man dooms the man to always be a bad person. I work with a guy who's casually sexist and macho, but he's also quite helpful and compassionate in a lot of ways. He's not All Bad, or even Mostly Bad. I just understand why his wife is often angry with him.

Working in a shop, I come into contact with a LOT of macho men. And we get the guys who build hot rods because the didn't have a hot rod until they did that. And we get the guys that.... etc. And in the shop, we only see the macho part. We don't see how they behave when their with their wives and/or kids, we don't see how they behave at work, we don't see any of that. It's a very one-sided view.

I've adopted a more macho persona for when I'm at work that doesn't sacrifice any core values I have simply because it CAN be a lot of fun, especially when your personal ego isn't tied to the persona.

People are complicated. There are so many facets to each individual, you could show a new face every day for a month and still have only expressed yourself less than 50%.

Likewise, GGs that accept male privilege can be a tricky bunch. I also am someone who ends up hanging out with the girls at social gatherings (although because of my time in a shop, I can hang with the guys and even talk sports even though I don't follow any of them), and in a group that accepts male privilege, the girls reject me and the men don't talk to me. I end up alone and feeling bitter about both men and women.

But since I'm someone who can carry on two conversations at once, I've found myself in mixed groups where the men were having one conversation and the women a different one, and I was participating in both at once. :)

[Brittany CD]

I'm a man

Men are cool. I probably have more female friends than I do male, but guys I hang out with are some of the nicest guys ever

I've never been dressed in front of a man

[Jackie7]

Very strange thread with a lot of emotion in it, not so surprising given who we are and what we are talking about.

I am an older hetero man, I love to dress at home and occasionally go out dressed. Our community of friends, admittedly East Coast liberal as all hell, accepts me in guy mode or girl mode. All my life most NOT ALL of my close friends have been women, at parties however I am dressed I gravitate toward the women and see them as bright sparks against a drab background.

When I am en femme I find a lot of acceptance from women, especially my wife's friends. The biggest payoff from all of this was a recent wedding, where I was invited to join the bridesmaids dressing and prepping the bride. What a treat!

However when I am dressed en femme, several of the bisexual men in our crowd flirt heavily with me and I love that too. If they were to flirt with me the same way when I am en drab, I would be a lot less comfortable; but that is a lot less likely to happen anyway.

my experience, my 2 cents.
--Jackie

[ErinSassyPants]

These are all very interesting, thank you. I hope more people will add their thoughts.

I find it interesting as a side not that people are mentioning man bashing in this thread when I've seen way worse man bashing in other threads and no one seemed to notice. I wonder if it's because people are looking for it in this thread or maybe people don't really read what others post sometimes?

I'm also wondering if the man bashing and the GG bashing are not sides of the same coin.

[Barbara Dugan]

When I am presenting as a male, I am friendly to both men and women, oddly I never get any attraction or sex vibe from any of them. I have to admit that when I dress one of my motives is being attractive to guys, if I am successful with that l I feel validated

[ReineD]

I've read the 'men are pigs' mantra here many times, more than I can count. There seem to be some CDers who don't like the behavior of adolescent men but who see this behavior extending to adulthood? A little too much stereotyping perhaps? I don't know, I don't hang out in male locker rooms, but I have a hard time believing that most men would not respect women when they are out of earshot, yet turn around and be helpful and polite to us. I also don't know many men who spend their time guzzling beer and watching sports, even if they engage in these activities occasionally.



I find it interesting as a side not that people are mentioning man bashing in this thread when I've seen way worse man bashing in other threads and no one seemed to notice. I wonder if it's because people are looking for it in this thread or maybe people don't really read what others post sometimes?

No, it just depends on the way you phrase the question and to some degree I think, the way that the first few members respond. I've seen many threads here go way the other way so much than on more than one occasion I felt compelled to say something.

[whowhatwhen]

You'll find that a lot were forced/bullied into the stereotypical male role when they really didn't belong there, that extends to CDs as well.
It's not just the beer swilling stereotype, men just act differently and a lot more than you'd think partake in casual sexism which is just oh so uncomfortable.

Imagine how you'd feel upon hearing casual sexism and then be expected to find it funny?
Believe me, more men than just the stereotypical jerk can be real assholes when no women are around.

Still, when has anyone said "all men are pigs"?
Please link me the specific posts.

[Jorja]

Nicely said Jorja - then again, i treat women the same.

The OP specifically ask about men, therefore, I answered about men. Ask about women and I will reply the same except changing the word male to female.

[Jenny CD]

Don't even think that the tiny amount of manbashing here is anywhere close to the crap that GGs and TSs face by simply existing,

Don't know if ya'll have been following my DATE thread... but this quote above is close to my heart because of a stupid proposition that made me feel like crap.

[ReineD]

It's not just the beer swilling stereotype, men just act differently and a lot more than you'd think partake in casual sexism which is just oh so uncomfortable.

This is so difficult for me to understand because the vast majority of men that I know are so very well behaved in front of women. What is it ... Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde Syndrome? Men can't all be hypocrites in front of women. :strugglin



Still, when has anyone said "all men are pigs"?
Please link me the specific posts.


http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?199152-How-do-you-know&p=3261596&viewfull=1#post3261596

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?199193-Men&p=3262022&viewfull=1#post3262022

[ErinSassyPants]

This happens to me all of the time. I hear about women as back biting jealous harpies and I wonder...where are these women? I don't know any of them. I hear about men who are sexist homophobic jackasses and I wonder where are these guys? (well ok, I can say I now know there are at least a few sexist homophobic guys on this forum but in person? the only one I know is my mother's husband)

I wonder if it's because I tend more toward a geeky crowd? or because I am really good at choosing people to spend time with? Some of it is that people don't tend to say certain things in front of me because I'm pretty up front about my opinions. I'm not entirely sure what all comes into it, but I've talked to enough people with enough experiences to know that my experience of people is not the same as most people's.

[ReineD]

Erin, I think that guys posture in front of each other. Honestly, I think they're being real with us and they put up a front when they're with each other, because they're vying for their places in the male pecking order?

... the younger guys that is. I've seen teenagers and younger men do some major posturing and likely, some stay stuck there when they get older. But, the men that I know seem to outgrow it as they mature and become more confident in themselves.


The genetic male members reading this must be having a laugh, seeing two GGs discussing men! :D

[PaulaQ]

I have some male friends, really good ones. I have sons - I love my sons, they are good men, and I am proud of them. So I like specific men, but in general, I've generally found I have little in common with most men. I've tried - I put on a pretty good act, but it was fake as all hell.

In general, I don't trust men - they freak me out until proven trustworthy. I've always felt this way. I've always found it easier to talk to, and befriend women. (Unfortunately, being attracted to them as well has complicated things from time to time in the past.)

Male only places - locker-rooms, restrooms, etc. have *always* freaked me out. I never understood why, until recently.

I don't understand men very well, I don't think. Oh, I understand the obligations men have - I've just never enjoyed them. More suffered under them, and tried to make the best of it. Somehow, though, my sons seem fairly well adjusted. Go figure.

I hope none of what I say comes across as male bashing. I have a lot of sympathy for men - I ****ing hate being one, and I don't know how they get along as well as they do. The pressures to conform and to compete are pretty intense. I think it is a miserable experience. No wonder some of them behave badly. Who wouldn't?

[AmandaM]

I don't know. I really just don't like men. I don't like them at all. I'd rather hang out with a bunch of women 24/7.

[Crissy Kay]

I guess unlike most posters here, I like men. And prefer to be around them rather then women. I am just more comfortable with men.

[Shelly Preston]

Men have always acted differently depending on the situation. In fact there is a great example of this at the start of the film Grease. The part where Danny acts all macho around his friends yet Sandy does not recognise the boy she met on holiday.

You will meet all types of men in your lifetime the good the bad and the well.............
A lot depends on where you meet them. You will always get the odd comment from a distance. The vast majority of those I have met where we actually had a conversation have been gentleman.

[MysticLady]

I hear about men who are sexist homophobic jackasses and I wonder where are these guys? (well ok, I can say I now know there are at least a few sexist homophobic guys on this forum but in person?

................. :p ..........................


The genetic male members reading this must be having a laugh, seeing two GGs discussing men! :D

Actually Reine, I find it very interesting. Why do you think some of us want access to the FAB forum:D

[Asche]

What is your opinion of men?

If you have interacted with men presenting as both male and female have your experiences and impressions of men been different?
I'm going to reinterpret this as "how do you feel about men", because I don't place much stock in "opinions" of huge groups of people.

Basically, I feel wary of men. I feel somewhat wary of pretty much anyone I don't know well, but it's a whole lot more so with men. I am more willing to give women the benefit of the doubt as far as my trusting them, while for me, men are presumed likely to attack me (emotionally and perhaps even physically) until proven otherwise. And any show of dominance or macho behavior, or misogyny/sexism, homophobia, or racism puts a man immediately and pretty much permanently on my "no fly list."

I make no apologies for this. I went through too much hell from men and boys growing up, and I see too much cr*p going on even today. Society does its best to raise men to be oppressors, and all too many of them take to it like a duck takes to water.

I've also noticed that men who seem nice enough on their own or in mixed-gender groups can turn pretty misogynistic when in an all-male group. Typically, the majority of men present join in and a few stay silent -- no one ever objects (except me, sometimes.) I've been in a number of "men's groups," and I've seen this in every one.

As for "presenting as female" -- I don't "present as female." Sometimes I wear "male clothing" and sometimes I wear "female clothing." For the most part, my experiences are the same, and when they're not, it's with people I don't want to be around anyway.

[whowhatwhen]

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?199152-How-do-you-know&p=3261596&viewfull=1#post3261596
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?199193-Men&p=3262022&viewfull=1#post3262022

I'll give you those but 2 posts within 3 pages are hardly a case for systemic manbashing.

[ReineD]

Corinne ... believe me, there have been many threads in the past where a majority of the respondents engaged in some form of male-bashing or another, even if it was indirect. I agree, this thread is wonderful for its objectivity but it is one of the few like this that I have ever seen.

Maybe we're getting a new generation of CDers join this board? :)

[whowhatwhen]

Seems like a non-issue to me.
I mean, you could stand outside a women's shelter holding a large sign saying "NOT ALL MEN ARE ABUSIVE!" which may be technically correct but it's not an appropriate venue.

For some people a place like this is where they can shed off the enforced masculinity of the day to day world and be themselves.

Sharing this gif because I love it:
http://i.imgur.com/8nFwfXo.gif

:)

[LilSissyStevie]

My experience is that evil is evenly distributed between the sexes.:devil: But lets not insult pigs by comparing any groups of humans to them. My pigs are the gentlest, most peaceful creatures around as long as you don't try to take food away from them. And they're tasty, too.:D I'm more comfortable around women only because I've never had much male influence in my life. At home, the male presence was ephemeral, at school I was an outcast. My "friends" were freaks like me. We were thrown together by necessity not attraction. I never knew how to act around males until I gradually developed a masculine "persona" that allowed me to navigate the male world but it wasn't "me" and I've always felt like an outsider. I can be friendly with men but I've never really had any male friends.

[MatildaJ.]

I don't find I understand men or women or people in general. Until I've become friends with people, I am always putting on a social front, and I don't let myself relax or talk about things that are really important to me.

[ReineD]

LilsissyStevie, you voice another sentiment that is often said here: you felt like an outsider around males.

But is this a gendered thing or is it simply having an offbeat personality? I also felt like an outsider around the females of my youth. And I identify purely as a girl. I always have. I just thought along different planes than they did and I've always only had a very small, select group of female friends. One best friend at a time sort of thing.

Maybe a lot of people feel like outsiders to a degree when they're growing up or until they find their niche?

[LilSissyStevie]

But is this a gendered thing or is it simply having an offbeat personality?

I never thought I was a girl. I was the classic sissy: shy, timid, crybaby, sensitive, hated any kind of sports, etc. That didn't make me a girl. Most girls were made of tougher stuff than me. But a girl could be like me and not be a punching bag.

[Brooklyn]

Almost all of my friends are either female, gay, or trans. I don't dislike straight men, but they generally are not as chatty and I like a good conversation. When they do talk, it's always about politics or sports or something I don't care much about. I just feel more comfortable around women and gay men, which is not a problem in a hair salon.

Most CDers en femme do not change much from the direct, monotone, curt speech patterns I associate with men. Women ask lots more questions and establish a relationship through talking.

When flirting with admirers, I have experienced the seductive talk of confident men that I otherwise would have no clue about. Some men really go out of their way to treat me right. I would not EVER experience that presenting as a dude.

[MatildaJ.]

When flirting with admirers, I have experienced the seductive talk of confident men that I otherwise would have no clue about. Some men really go out of their way to treat me right. I would not EVER experience that presenting as a dude.

You probably already know this, but "treating a woman right" is a game for those players, all just part of the seduction process. It doesn't mean that they actually respect the woman, in the sense of warning her about any sexually transmitted infections they might have, or about whether they have promised to be faithful to someone else, or whether they will actually ever get in touch after a night of sex.

[ReineD]

To add to what Jess just wrote, "treating a woman right" in this case is synonymous with "doing what he can to get into her pants". But, if this is what the CDer wants, then there's no problem, is there. I guess a lot of people want just a sexual relationship. But keep in mind that if you (Ashley) didn't have the one thing that differentiates men from women (a penis), admirers would not be interested. Honestly, the quickest way to turn off an admirer (if you are stealth and completely pass as a GG), is to tell him that you are a GG. Admirers are their own breed of men, not like hetero men:

http://aliceingenderland.com/menwhomightbeinterested.html

[DanielleT]

I think ReineD makes a lot of good points, there are men out there that just want to get into our pants, just for the experience of a woman like us, whatever. I agree with her, if all you looking for as a C/D woman or T-girl, is a fling and you are comfortable with with the risks and rewards that may go with that, so be it. In my dealings with men, I tend to be more like a GG, I love being treated like a woman, but that is by no means an automatic guarantee that you get to take me home for the night.

I consider myself to be a lady in the truest sense, but I am also not afraid to be the woman that I am. Like everything else in this life, caution and a measured approach is usually the best approach. I just love being with men, but like most GG girls, I like to play hard to get.

When I am en femme, dressed and in public, I get hit on a lot, lots of invitations and lots offers. As a woman, while all that is very gratifying, at the end of the day, I am still a lady and I want to have some degree of repect for the person I am the next morning.

[ErinSassyPants]

like most GG girls, I like to play hard to get.


I think you'll find a significant number of GGs who would be offended by the idea that "most GG girls" are "playing hard to get"

Also, I would love for you to chime in over on the other thread about what you mean when you say "treated like a woman"

[ReineD]

Erin, I hope you don't mind if I elaborate on what you've just said, but I shared your feeling exactly when I read Danielle's post. A woman who "plays hard to get" suggests a woman who plays games somehow by "teasing" a man. A woman worth her salt will not do that. Whether I (or any other woman who does not play games) am interested in a guy or not, he knows the truth from the onset. And if I am interested, he'll know it but he will also know that I require some time before jumping into bed. This is not what I consider "playing hard to get" since there are excellent reasons for not jumping into bed right off the bat.

[ErinSassyPants]

Thank you Reine, I appreciate and agree with your post completely.

I don't play games. The women I know don't "play hard to get" they are conscious of their physical and emotional safety, they have different comfort zones of how long they get to know people before having sex with them. This means different things for every individual but the women I know aren't teasing, it isn't about the partner it's about what feels right to them.

I will also add that I have female friends who do have sex right away and I do not believe they deserve any judgment for that either.

[ErinP]

Boys will be boys! I have things about being born male that are fine by me. I just hate the dominate, sports loving, hunting, fake macho crap that is played in male circles. From a very young age I always wanted to be where the girls were. They are more open and caring and way better listeners. Deeper relationships are on the female side of life. Being older and wiser has led me to see I have always embraced my fem side even when I never realized it.