"Like a woman"

[ErinSassyPants]

I have seen many people on these forums say things about being treated like a woman.

So my question is, what does that mean do you?

and where did you get that perception?

First, I am interested in what people mean by that in a social way.

Second, there is an undercurrent I perceive here and on another site quite often that being treated "like a woman" includes being treated as the submissive partner in the bedroom. I'm not asking for any sexual details, you all know what's allowed on this forum better than I do so please follow that. I'm asking about the dynamics and attitudes not the behaviors and details.

Do you associate being treated "like a woman" in the bedroom with being submissive? and what does that mean to you? and where did you get that association/perception from?

[Lorileah]

Wow this could get interesting :) When I thin about being treated like a woman, it is more the old fashioned treat her like a lady thing. Hold the door, walk on the outside, open the car door (at least when we are on a date...later after we get married...:idontknow:, hold my chair. You know all that stuff that no one wants anymore :) It is hard for me to let others do this for two reasons. First i was taught to do that growing up (half the time it isn't even gender oriented...I hold the door for everyone) and other other half is because I feel that women are equal to me and things like buying drinks (while i love every minute of it) can go both ways. I am an independent woman myself so while the gestures are appreciated, I don't hold stock in them.

On the sexual side :o I am sub anyway but it isn't because of my gender identity. It is what I am. I do like my partner to take the initiative but I think that is because I have been shot down so many times I don't know when to initiate it myself anymore.

:addendum: I don't think most the members here would really like being treated like most women get treated. Lower pay, less respect, being abused, being treated like they are less intelligent, less skilled, less logical. I think everyone wants the best side of that, not the REAL side

[RADER]

Lorileah, You are correct in that most women get treated like 2 ND class people.
Lower pay, lesser job status, doing less than desirable jobs, Etc.
Being treated like a "Lady" is holding the door, Pull out the chair, all those
things you where thought when you where growing up.
Women deserve respect, and should get a lot more than they do.
Rader

[RebeccaLynne]

Do you associate being treated "like a woman" in the bedroom with being submissive? and what does that mean to you? and where did you get that association/perception from?

I feel both partners should be spontaneous and adventurous. By that I mean neither should be expected to behave as either the leader or the follower. Both being free to communicate whatever they'd like to experience in the spirit of keeping intimacies fresh and exciting.

It's long been my belief that we're equals, and that we should be open to entertaining our partner's desires and fantasies as they unfold.

I really think a lot of my flexability in those areas comes from my being a crossdresser... just another plus! :heehee:

[Wildaboutheels]

I have no desire whatsoever to be treated "like a woman".

But an easy guess for many here, [based on both the popular threads as well the P&V gallery] is that that sentiment equates to simply having that "power" that women have. The power of being "wanted and/or desired" simply by how they LOOK. HOW they present themselves. Men have "limited" clothing choices, because their "success" with women, will depend only slightly on HOW they [a man] is dressed. A beautiful woman CAN dress down or hide her figure should she CHOOSE to. She will lose much of her "power' by doing so.

Many women don't fully realize this "power" thing, and others exploit it at every available opportunity.

[Kate Simmons]

For myself it's not being "treated as a woman" per se as much as it is being shown respect for who I am as a person. Sometimes that includes when I'm presenting en femme. No one automatically deserves respect,however, it has to be earned based on who we are and what we do, regardless of what we look like. For myself it has nothing to do with sex. That's a whole other "ball game".:battingeyelashes::)

[Beverley Sims]

Forget sex and submissive in the bedroom.
Opening the door and mannerisms toward me when dressed is what I look for.
If i am with a group of GG's the eventual switch to female talk instead if just being included in the conversation as a man in a dress is always an achievement.
Sometimes this never happens as I can be accepted right away.
That boosts the ego and makes me feel more comfortable.
A higher sense of achievement so to speak.

[tiffanyjo89]

To me, the idea of treating a woman "like a lady" typically implies that women are weaker. I think the saying should be changed and made to apply to all people equally, "treating others with respect." In the older days, a man opening and closing the car door for a woman might be a side effect of the way the car doors were. Also, if a person is within a reasonable amount of distance from the door I'll hold it open (or at least push it open further) for anyone, a big guy or a small girl.

I think what a fair amount of trans/CD people might mean when they say they want to be treated like a woman is that they want to be seen as a woman, and even if a person is "being nice," they want to be treated with a level of respect. I believe everyone is deserving of a base level of respect automatically, but that a person's actions can positively or negatively affect how I treat them.

[kimdl93]

For me it's nothing more than the simple courtesies extended, like a gentleman opening a door for me. Or being part of a conversation with GGs and feeling quite a part of it. On the physical side, my wife and I are simply equal partners sharing enjoyment of intimacy in similar ways.

[Brooklyn]

I adore women so much, it is sometimes a little hard for me to consider most men as equals, but whether it’s getting called ma’am, or having a guy pay for my drink, or getting to be the follower in a dance, or even slapped on the rear, I absolutely love it. Maybe this attention and interaction is why I feel compelled to go out, because I don’t dress up at home (why bother?) and often feel invisible in everyday life.

As far as the bedroom, it has been so long... but my recollection is that most women do prefer to be “taken”. I’m a dancer and think more about leader / follower rather than dominant / submissive. In ballroom, the guy initiates movements that will make the lady look as good as she can. I think sex and dance have lots in common. You can’t have both partners trying to lead or both wanting to follow. Both roles have power, but they are distinct and co-dependent. It would be fun to be gay and get to have things both ways, but I’m not wired that way.

[whowhatwhen]

I never grew up thinking that way luckily, I guess growing up in the 90s-2000s meant I skipped a lot of the whole act like a lady kind of thing.
To me it just seems like a part of a generation that grew up when women "knowing their place" was the norm, you know, like that old home-ec textbook that said to have a drink ready for your husband when he gets home from work.

Not saying that's what people are doing, but when you grow up with that around you it's going to have at least some influence.
I grew up male and as such some parts of me will have ingrained stereotypical things and things on a subconscious level that I will simply not see unless it's pointed out.

Once I started learning more about things like the gay community and learned that even the biggest, burliest, toughest man can be submissive then the whole stereotypical thing crashed down.
The thing is though that these ideas get almost no exposure, off the top how many times do you hear about women who are dominant/tops or submissive men?

Never.
Anything other than 1 man and 1 woman missionary lights out no touching is just not talked about.

Even if I were just a gay man I'd still be submissive/bottom in the bedroom, it's kinda moot though since I'm not interested as long as I still look like a man. So being "taken as a woman" more means being myself, and not in the context of women being weaker and submissive.
Also I can't physically so I'm bitter about that too, just a bit.

[Leona]

Blame me for injecting politics.

I absolutely in no way want to ever be treated like a woman. I want to get paid what the job's worth. I want to be able to choose my own health care practices. I don't want my spouse to tell me what to think or how to vote. I want to ride a bike that's structurally stable rather than a bike that's modified to accomodate a dress (didn't see that coming, did you?). I want to be accepted as attractive no matter what my size is. I want my feelings to matter. I want my opinion to mean something. I want to be acknowledged as a sentient being.

I'll stop there. I have problems with the phrase "treat like a woman", like women should be treated differently than anybody else. We should always treat people with respect and dignity. We should always listen to their concerns, and we should always offer a helping hand. Your gender is irrelevant in all of these things.

whowhatwhen: My wife and I often talk about our non-missionary lights-on adventures, since that's mostly what we do (we both find missionary boring, and we both want to see the other person)

[whowhatwhen]

I should've clarified that I meant the stuck-up general public and certain groups who want to pretend sexuality doesn't exist.

[Leona]

I've had the misfortune of being in bed with members of that group. What a nightmare! I hope I never find myself there.

If I do, I know what to do about it. I'll put on her dress. :)

On a side note, my wife is usually a bit submissive, but sometimes she can be a downright domme. I love that about her, even if that's not exactly sexually compatible with me, but we usually manage to work something out, and then back in, and then out again, and then back in, etc.

[Lynn Marie]

In boy mode I'm dominate, in girl mode I'm submissive. It's just the way I feel, not something I do.

[divamissz]

To me it's the public perception of being a woman, and how society allows women to have certain liberties. Like how we dress or how a man will hold the door for you or being called "ma'am" or "miss." In the bedroom, being a woman to me means lovemaking that's more sensual, more erotic and less focused on the immediate "getting it done."

I like it when a man opens a car door for me, or picks up the check without hesitation. I like it when a woman asks where I got my outfit from and you know it's because she likes the style. I like it when I'm called "ma'am" and when another woman treats me like one of the girls.

Because nothing makes you feel better than to be one of the girls.

[susmitha]

For me, being treated like a woman in the bed room means I should be treated just like any real genetic woman - i.e. as the female partner. I like to be soft, smooth and submissive. I want my partner to take initiative and make love to me. I want to to feel weak and vulnerable during intercourse. I like to be the passive / receptive partner at the bottom, just allowing my partner to be in the driver's seat and play with my body, without giving me any pain.

[Sabrina133]

My parent raised us (two girls and one genetic male - that would be me) to respect everyone equally, with dignity and acceptance. He taught my two sisters to fight for what they wanted, demand equality and to be independent. At the same time, my Mother tempered my fathers training by teaching them to be subtle in their approach without being submissive or kowtowing to anyone. I think thats why they are both successful in their chosen fields and in their lives. Since I've met my SO, I've come to put her in the same catagory as my sisters and my Mom. What is more, they are that way without haviing lost their grasp of their emotionality, tenderness, caring, femininity that I admire about women - they've maintained it without being vulnerable. SO when i say i admire women, i look at my role models (two sisters, mom and SO) and try to emulate them.

[GinaD]

My interpretation of being treated "like a woman" would involve simple things like a man holding a door open for me, looking at me appreciatively, or treating me in a protective or gentle manner. As a man, I find I have to me more proactive on dates or "in the bedroom", with the expectation of planning an interesting time out, usually paying the freight, and taking the lead in the bedroom. As Gina, I get to be on the other side of the coin. I get more attention from a man as Gina than I usually get as my male persona from a woman. I also like being submissive in the bedroom, and being appreciated for what I bring to the event. It usually isn't the same in my male persona. I don't know if that makes sense.

[ErinSassyPants]

Thank you everyone. I see quite a bit of stuff that makes my head want to explode but I don't think it's fair to ask a question and then get on people about their answers. So I will just say that it's absolutely fascinating to me how very different some of your ideas of what being "the women" in bed means from my experience of being a woman actually is.

Now I know that not all women have my dominant streak but I have spoken with 100s of women about sexual things and the majority are into equality in bed, NOT submission. They want it to be a dance where who leads flows back and forth.

Then there are some who are wired submissive, not because they are women but because that is how they are wired and it doesn't necessarily mean they are submissive socially, often the women I know who label themselves as very submissive in bed are not submissive at all in any other situation. Thinking about it makes me smile actually because I've seen men who didn't understand how NOT submissive they were in all other areas. Talk about some kick ass ladies.

I think more women would show dominant streaks if our society didn't do so much crap to women's attitudes about themselves and their sexuality.

Leona, I appreciate your comments about not wanting to be treated "like a woman" very much.

[BOBBI G.]

As a transgender girl (someday to be woman), I really don't care if I am treated as a woman, as such. I am, for the most part, out to the world. I no longer own any "boy clothes", and am a girl all the time. I am in the process of going through gender therapy and the start of the second puberty. All I really want is to be treated with the same respect and any human deserves.

Bobbi

[linda allen]

Being treated like a woman?

It's going to be different for each of us based on where we are with our crossdressing.

For me, it's a male holding the door for me or stepping out of the way as I'm walking on the sidewalk. Since I'm not out of the house that often and not interacting with people except passing by, that's about it.

The bedroom? That could be very different for many of us. Since I'm married (to a woman), it doesn't really apply. She's the woman, in the end, I'm the man.

[sometimes_miss]

The association of feeling as if a female during sex with being the submissive, or receptive one is pretty obvious. Recent studies even indicate that most women prefer the bottom position of 'doggy' during sex. Also, female is more conducive to being the re-active partner, simply because if the guy doesn't have an erection, the woman isn't going to be able to initiate intercourse. So it's more 'natural' for the female to make herself available when the male is ready for intercourse. Does that help?

[whowhatwhen]

Thank you everyone. I see quite a bit of stuff that makes my head want to explode but I don't think it's fair to ask a question and then get on people about their answers. So I will just say that it's absolutely fascinating to me how very different some of your ideas of what being "the women" in bed means from my experience of being a woman actually is.

It is fair though, IMO these things need to be explored so that they can be filtered down through subsequent generations.
What you're going to see is just a product of how society raises men, even transpeople will carry it with them.

The whole woman == submissive and man == dominant thing is so deeply rooted, there is no chance in hell you'd have a guy with his buddies saying that he loves getting pegged by his wife.
We're all still being conditioned to think that men == power and that it should remain as such, luckily it's beginning to fade but some people are still embracing this and even taking it to extremes.

I had an argument with my brother a few months ago where I questioned him why it always has to be the man with the power in the relationship and his response was that "it's just how things have always been."
This came from someone who is very liberal too so it's way more complex than it seems on the surface.

I'll ask a reverse question though.
Are women brought up to be the submissive partners?

[Oddlee]

I would say "people" deserve respect, and should get a lot more than they do.

[ErinSassyPants]

So it's more 'natural' for the female to make herself available when the male is ready for intercourse. Does that help?

Nope, I get that those are attitudes people mention, but they don't make any sense to me. Also, what you're saying is boils sex down to only one act putting a penis in... But that is not the full encompassment of sex, it's just the part that gets the most media coverage. Also, one of our cultures stereotypes is that men are *always* ready, and if he's not the whisper of a breeze or a glimpse of a boob will make it so. It's not true but if that is there feeding into the idea that women should be ready when he's ready it doesn't make a lot of sense.



I'll ask a reverse question though.
Are women brought up to be the submissive partners?

It is absolutely complex, I'm just surprised at so many saying "this is my experience" or "this is my perception of the experience" of being "the women." I wonder if for some people crossing gender lines is in part connected with being submissive and not being able to assimilate that with the maleness.

Good question, women are absolutely brought up to be the submissive partners. But the women I know have not lived it in the extreme that I see talked about here. The women I know have it whispering in their heads and muddling things when they feel dominant, or when they need to stand up for themselves in relationships. But it's an influence...not a desire they aspire to, at least not usually, there are of course some GGs who are absolutely comfortable in the most traditional stereotypes of women but they are as rare as GM who are absolutely comfortable in the extreme stereotype of masculinity put forth by our culture. Does that make sense?

So I see that women get and even struggle with this message, and what I perceive is that many on this forum do not understand the complexity of these messages for women. They assume that woman = submissive is "natural" or what women want. But that's not a real view of real people, that's accepting a stereotype at shallow face value.


I would say "people" deserve respect, and should get a lot more than they do.

I would say you are absolutely right.

[suchacutie]

I've been thinking about this for a couple of days. Women and men view the world differently and that shapes how men interact with women, and also how women interact with women. The complexity here is that to be interacted with as a woman it is best to give off the mental as well as physical cues of the feminine being we wish to perfect. The more we project femininity the more others will fall into the framework of treating us as GG.

Unfortunately, human interaction is not always positive, so like any GG we need to learn how to compliment tol the good and deal with the bad.Tina is not submissive. Tina expects respective behavior but that doesn't have to be classic gentlemanly behavior. With woman it's terrific to have everyone just act and talk so that Tina is just one of the girls, as cmplex as that is:)

[Vickie_CDTV]

While there is certainly validity to the argument those who dress are submissive because they believe women should be submissive, I think to be fair, on the flip side... most desire a dominant GG to be submissive to.

For what it is worth, being a man in this society isn't so great either. Men are still waiting for the same advances in equality women gained many years ago.

[Leona]

Nope, I get that those are attitudes people mention, but they don't make any sense to me. Also, what you're saying is boils sex down to only one act putting a penis in... But that is not the full encompassment of sex, it's just the part that gets the most media coverage. Also, one of our cultures stereotypes is that men are *always* ready, and if he's not the whisper of a breeze or a glimpse of a boob will make it so. It's not true but if that is there feeding into the idea that women should be ready when he's ready it doesn't make a lot of sense.

These attitudes don't make sense to me, and in practice, well, let's just say I've never propositioned a woman for sex. It's always been the other way around, and I kinda like it that way. (Not necessarily in relationships, mind you, because there's a lot of what-she-wants and what-he-wants and so forth)




Good question, women are absolutely brought up to be the submissive partners. But the women I know have not lived it in the extreme that I see talked about here. The women I know have it whispering in their heads and muddling things when they feel dominant, or when they need to stand up for themselves in relationships. But it's an influence...not a desire they aspire to, at least not usually, there are of course some GGs who are absolutely comfortable in the most traditional stereotypes of women but they are as rare as GM who are absolutely comfortable in the extreme stereotype of masculinity put forth by our culture. Does that make sense?

Now, this is interesting. My wife can be quite aggressive when she wants sex, but she describes herself as "more of a sub". I'm wondering if she self-identifies that way as a result of conditioning, says it because she wants me to like her and has been trained to believe that's what I want to hear, or if she really is wired that way. I'll bring this up with her, it'll no doubt be an interesting discussion. In terms of how she behaves in bed, she really comes off to me as being an egalitarian, and one of the things she was concerned about when I came out to her was that I was going to turn into this submissive crossdressing person. (It only took a night in a dress with a rope to cure that concern of hers :) )

[Emma500]

To me:

being treated like a woman

means being dressed as a woman and being with a guy who treats me like a female - in every way.



First, I am interested in what people mean by that in a social way.

Second, there is an undercurrent I perceive here and on another site quite often that being treated "like a woman" includes being treated as the submissive partner in the bedroom. I'm not asking for any sexual details, you all know what's allowed on this forum better than I do so please follow that. I'm asking about the dynamics and attitudes not the behaviors and details.

Do you associate being treated "like a woman" in the bedroom with being submissive? and what does that mean to you? and where did you get that association/perception from?

[Brittany CD]

Truthfully, I'm a male and would prefer to treated the same way dressed that I would be treated while as a guy

[whowhatwhen]

Second, there is an undercurrent I perceive here and on another site quite often that being treated "like a woman" includes being treated as the submissive partner in the bedroom. I'm not asking for any sexual details, you all know what's allowed on this forum better than I do so please follow that. I'm asking about the dynamics and attitudes not the behaviors and details.

Do you associate being treated "like a woman" in the bedroom with being submissive? and what does that mean to you? and where did you get that association/perception from?

I think it could depend on where you fall on the TG spectrum.
If you grow up as a man it's heavily enforced that you should be the dominant partner but this may get a bit skewed if you're not interested or have negative feelings towards your parts.

Instead of dominant and submissive you could always go with top and bottom, I mean, you'd have to be okay with the gay but that's a bit less discriminatory and assumes both partners are equals.

Personally I'm not wired to be a top, I just wouldn't know how nor do I have any interest in learning but like everything else it could change.
I just don't feel comfortable with the idea, of course it may have nothing to do with being trans and I was just going to be a bottom regardless of gender identity or sexual orientation.

Take that with a grain of salt though since I've not been with either, it's all just theory to me at this point.
An interesting one though :) but it certainly helps me open up and explore more by discussion.

[Leona]

I definitely prefer "top" and "bottom" words, even in a heterosexual relationship. My wife's definitely a bottom. And I'm definitely a top. And removing the dom/sub definitions gives us more flexibility in describing ourselves as sex partners.

[ErinSassyPants]

I think it could depend on where you fall on the TG spectrum.
If you grow up as a man it's heavily enforced that you should be the dominant partner but this may get a bit skewed if you're not interested or have negative feelings towards your parts.

Instead of dominant and submissive you could always go with top and bottom, I mean, you'd have to be okay with the gay but that's a bit less discriminatory and assumes both partners are equals.

Personally I'm not wired to be a top, I just wouldn't know how nor do I have any interest in learning but like everything else it could change.
I just don't feel comfortable with the idea, of course it may have nothing to do with being trans and I was just going to be a bottom regardless of gender identity or sexual orientation.

Take that with a grain of salt though since I've not been with either, it's all just theory to me at this point.
An interesting one though :) but it certainly helps me open up and explore more by discussion.

I'm sure where you fall affects your perspective on quite a bit about gender roles.

The thing is, that top and dominant don't mean the same thing. Same with bottom and submissive. It is the point of dominance and submission that it not be egalitarian.

My theory is that gender, sexual orientation and dom/sub are all separate dices thrown in how we are wired. Of course they have to be those fancy dices with lots of numbers because all of those are continuums. So I think if you are wired to be a bottom, or a top or dominant or submissive then that is how you are wired separately from the other dice.

It's going to be so fun to find out what you think of all this once you get to the test drive part of your life(o:


I definitely prefer "top" and "bottom" words, even in a heterosexual relationship. My wife's definitely a bottom. And I'm definitely a top. And removing the dom/sub definitions gives us more flexibility in describing ourselves as sex partners.

Totally makes sense, I bet you prefer the words because they more closely describe your roles.

Edited to add
I just saw more posts above these.

Leona, I think that will be an awesome discussion!

Emma500, It's the "like a female in every way" that I'm asking people to describe. That description doesn't mean anything, it doesn't tell me anything. What does it mean to you when you say that?

[Leona]

So are you suggesting it's possible to be a dominant bottom and a submissive top? (I happen to agree with that, actually....)

I think I prefer the words in part because they more closely describe our roles, and in part because they're flexible. We're also each a bit versatile (the third word so far left out), so she can be the top and I can be the bottom, but in terms of dom/sub, that really varies. Sometimes she's downright dominant, but never humiliating or whipping (I don't like that!), but she'll spank me as a show of affection just like I'll spank her. But there's never really a submissive here, either. And it doesn't matter what genders are being expressed.

[MatildaJ.]

So are you suggesting it's possible to be a dominant bottom and a submissive top?

Absolutely. There's a woman I play with who is dominant as hell, but she likes being tied up. So she taught me the ways she likes to be tied up, and now when we play together, I submissively tie her in those ways. If my husband would be dominant when dressed, I think we'd have an easier time muddling through (he has been my dominant for twenty years), but now he's interested in exploring his submissive side and it's definitely a growth experience for both of us.

[whowhatwhen]

Are we going to differentiate "like a woman" and "as a woman" as well?
You could argue that "as a woman" doesn't imply sub/bottom as much as the first.

[DanielleT]

Being a woman has nothing to do with what we wear in our panties, it is everything about how we feel about ourselves as women.

[Frédérique]

I have seen many people on these forums say things about being treated like a woman. So my question is, what does that mean do you? and where did you get that perception?

The phrase “like a woman,” no matter how you phrase it, couch it, or slice it, implies deference. Speaking as a male, this deference is instilled in boys from Day One, at least until you form a relationship with a REAL woman, and then all deference be damned. Some MtF crossdressers wish to be treated like women, but this may come from a lifetime of being treated like a Man, i.e. without any compassion, love, or respect (unless you FIGHT well, that is). In my case, I don’t dress the way I do to be treated one way or another, but it is nice to upset the societal standard operating procedure, if only for a short time…


Do you associate being treated "like a woman" in the bedroom with being submissive? and what does that mean to you? and where did you get that association/perception from?

I am submissive in the bedroom. It was awkward when the woman I was with wanted to “play” a submissive role – what then? Oh, NO! You mean I have to act like a man?
:doh:

[CassandraSmith]

The chivalry stuff really rocks my world. Sex could be interesting with the right female person really coming on to me and treating me like it's all about me!

[Flent]

I'll ask a reverse question though.
Are women brought up to be the submissive partners?

To me, submission implies giving someone physical or mental control over you, and that is definitely something that I was not brought up to accept from a partner. However, traditionally I think women have been expected to be more passive in bed, which is not the same thing.

Sexually, it is nice to passively receive pleasure; I imagine that goes for both sexes. (Most men like oral, right?) I’ve certainly known men who liked to be made love to; they weren’t submissive at all, just receptive to the pleasure I wanted to give them. It went both ways.

I’ve wondered before with some of the things I’ve read on here if some crossdressers mistakenly think the feeling of receiving anal penetration is in some way similar to how a woman might feel during intercourse. I can't imagine how the experience of sexual pleasure as a man could ever be feminine; wouldn't it be biologically impossible? It seems like all pleasure that a man feels during sex would be inherently masculine to the core. So, it confuses me when I see crossdressers mention feeling feminine in bed.

For other areas in a relationship, I don't think women these days are very passive. It's normal for women to be assertive in dating and pay their own way. I was brought up to hold the door open for anyone who needs it. Households share more responsibilities, both partners may have careers, etc. I think of femininity as something that is a part of you, not a role that you take on. So it seems strange to me that some crossdressers not only put on female clothing but also adopt some role in their minds, as for an imaginary play. The costume is self-explanatory and something I accept; the role confuses me sometimes, especially as each person has his own idea of it.

[Kelly Smith]

Do you associate being treated "like a woman" in the bedroom with being submissive? and what does that mean to you? and where did you get that association/perception from?

What is there in a woman's anatomy or psychology that makes her submissive in bed? I never got that. She has her equipment and the man has his. They are engaging in a form of cooperative play. Unless there is coercion involved, nobody is submitting to anyone.

[whowhatwhen]

To me, submission implies giving someone physical or mental control over you, and that is definitely something that I was not brought up to accept from a partner. However, traditionally I think women have been expected to be more passive in bed, which is not the same thing.


Good catch!
Passive is definitely a better word, though submission is used so much more commonly - even in gay stuff so I have no idea how deep it really goes.

Although for the rest it depends on the person, it could be that they're internally more feminine and only express it enfemme.
I can see what you mean about anal not being feminine, it's just one of those things men are ingrained into while growing up that being penetrated is feminine.

I'd argue that there isn't any masculine/feminine in pleasure felt during sex, it's (mostly) the same nerves and chemicals aside from our personal feelings and how we're brought up to view them.
Not every man is "masculine to the core", a lot were forced to adopt a kind of fake masculinity as a means of protection and for some crossdressing allows their true self to be themselves, if for a short time.

[Sister Rachel]

I haven't got the hang of using the "reply with quote" function yet (any help appreciated) so, to quote Lorileah ..

"I don't think most the members here would really like being treated like most women get treated. Lower pay, less respect, being abused, being treated like they are less intelligent, less skilled, less logical. I think everyone wants the best side of that, not the REAL side."

.. is pretty much what I wanted to say :thumbsup:

[Leona]

Leona, I think that will be an awesome discussion!


Heh, I didn't see you edited your post. :)

We had the discussion, and she agreed that top/bottom was better terminology for us. She also expressed appreciation that I treat her in an egalitarian sorta way when we're in bed together, which led to her thanking me for checking up on her (we can get pretty wild) and make sure she's still "in" with me, and how we both suggest position changes pretty much at the same time the other is thinking we should change... you know, stuff like that. Finding a position where we can see each other's faces, whether it's missionary or something facing a mirror, you know, stuff where we can make eye contact. Hell, last night we started with me in skirt, tank top, bra and forms, and ending with me completely naked whipping her with my bra. She's still tickled about that. :)

And even with the whipping (which we do pretty consistently 2-3 times a month), there's no dom/sub thing going on. And in that discussion, she told me she likes that there's no dom/sub thing happening, that it really is about the pleasure for both of us. (Interesting note, she had turned her head back to look at me and saw the bra coming in and ducked reflexively :) She was still laughing about it today).

Then we talked about how she can be quite aggressive and/or assertive, and I suggested she may enjoy trying on a domme role. She still has hangups with commands, so I suggested she try to manager-type command, you know "It would be nice if you swept the floor". We got distracted making fun of managers then, so that part of the conversation has yet to conclude. :)

[MatildaJ.]

I haven't got the hang of using the "reply with quote" function yet (any help appreciated)

At the bottom of each person's post, do you see a light grey bar with three buttons: Reply, Reply with Quote, and "? If you just want to reply to one person's post with a quote, you hit Reply with Quote, and then leave the formatting instructions intact (they'll says QUOTE and /QUOTE), but you can cut down the words to just the part you want. If you want to reply to multiple people, then you hit the " multi-quote button at the bottom of each post you want to respond to, and then when you're done picking posts, you hit Reply to Thread at the very bottom of the thread. Hope that helps some!


She still has hangups with commands, so I suggested she try to manager-type command, you know "It would be nice if you swept the floor". We got distracted making fun of managers then, so that part of the conversation has yet to conclude. :)

I think everyone who wants to dom has to find their own voice, so it feels authentic and fun, rather than artificial and constrained. For me, I didn't want a mom voice, or a cliche'd dominatrix voice, or a managerial voice. Instead I let out my bossy inner teenager -- and now I can have fun with it :-)

[Sister Rachel]

Thanks, Jess! :) I'll read through that a few more more times then try the techniques x

[Alice Torn]

I used to be afraid of girls and women, and still am, to an extent. I , have been rejected for coming on too strong, and for being too passive! In a relationship, i tend to be more submissive. And, if i were to ever be in bed with a wife, i would be the more submissive, as i have had a lot of male shame, and male plumbing shame. As a guy, i have struggled with guys , and more comfortable with friendly women. I was in bed several times with guys, and was on the submissive side, but drew the line, where i would go.

I just wanted to add, that true gentlemen don't abuse women, and true ladies don't crush men. Mutual respect needed, and some old fashioned things were very good, like manners, and self-control, and honor.