Asked Out on a Date!

[steph1964]

I went to a local bar last night to meet a couple of my friends after they got off work. We go to the bar regularly and I am friends with the two female bartenders so I went about two hours early to sit at the bar and chat with them. A guy who was sitting about 4 stools away from me started up a conversation. After talking for a little while he moved next to me and asked if I wanted to play the video game that was at the bar where I was sitting. He was very nice and we were having fun playing the games.

My friends arrived a while later and as my friend David walked past he said too loud to one of the bartenders “Who’s that guy sitting close to Stephanie.” I gave David a hug and he sat down and the guy apologized and said that he didn’t know that I was with someone. I am dense, probably because it hasn’t happened before, but until that point I wasn’t sure if he was hitting on me. I explained that David and I are just work friends and David is gay, then we continued talking and playing games.

At the end of the night, when the bar was closing, the guy asked for my phone number so that he could call me and ask me out on a date. That took me by surprise and I panicked. I told him that I would have to think about it because I just ended a 23 year marriage. One of my friends recovered for me and asked if he would be in there again, to which he replied he would be out of town next weekend but would be in the following Saturday. I told him that I would see him then. I gave him a hug and he lifted me off the ground while hugging me (I’m only 5’5”).

I am just beginning my transition and did not plan on this happening for a while, if ever. I am still completely confused on my orientation because I had only been interested in women in the past but recently that has been changing and I don’t understand why. I had a lot of fun hanging out with him and I am very attracted to him.

The big dilemma is that I don’t know if he realized that I am TS. I have a very bad self-image and I am always sure that everyone realizes, but my friends always tell me that no one knows. My feminine voice needs a lot of work but I do have an English accent, and my friends tell me that the accent throws people off and they don’t recognize it as being a male voice. My friends don’t think that he knows but told me to just go out with him and see what happens. I think that I should tell him before we go out.

[Rianna Humble]

Hi Steph, I don't really have any experience in this side of things, but I would think that there needs to be an element of safety first in this question.

Do you think it would be possible just to hang again in the bar, then decide if you want to go any further for a third meeting? I agree that as you are still (like me) pre-op, you would probably want to let him know gently before getting intimate. May I also suggest having a work colleague nearby in case things don't work out as you might hope?

[LeaP]

Steph, not to discount safety, of course, but you are probably one of the best-prepared people on the board for trouble! I also wonder if it might be a little awkward in your case to have your colleagues there ...???

[AllieSF]

Congratulations Steph. Every experience can be a learning one, and maybe you need some experience in this area, i.e maybe you should pursue this in a careful way. I agree that safety could be an issue if you let things get out of your control, and you are in control because you can always say no. You will meet him next week and I think that having your friends there too is actually a good idea. Your friends know you, and of course will be somewhat protective of you, they also have a lot of attributes that you like and you have those that they like too. Being your friends and having a non-date get together is a great way for everyone to get comfortable with someone new. You will also find out how he interacts with them and maybe others, and if he is looking for a potential relationship and just not a roll in the hay, not that there is anything wrong with that. In my opinion, there is no 3 or 5 date rule regarding when to get intimate. Taking your time will let you get some enjoyable emotional highs, as well as, let you learn how to judge those highs and bring them into balance with the rest of your life a few days later. If he is friend material, he can definitely wait until you are ready. Good luck with whatever you decide to do, and, of course, I will be glued to this site to see what happens next.

[groove67]

honey I am two days away from srs and totally into men and really never new this until I was on hrt.in few days i will be total woman and want a man in my life, so you should follow your feelings my dear. Marianne

[JohnH]

I guess each one of us is different. There is no way in God's green earth that I would ever want to have a romantic relationship with a man or to become intimate with a man. This is in spite of my being on M2F HRT for 21 months. I am happily married to a genetic woman.

Johanna

[Beth-Lock]

I am still completely confused on my orientation because I had only been interested in women in the past but recently that has been changing and I don’t understand why.

My orientation crossed over during transition too, even with no HRT. We are in a minority among TS, but it does happen.

[Marleena]

Johanna your comments sound kind of homophobic to me. Steph is a woman and excited about a date. Why bother to comment when the rest of us are happy for her. Besides you've made it clear numerous times you're different from us. Why rain on her parade?

[ReineD]

My orientation crossed over during transition too, even with no HRT. We are in a minority among TS, but it does happen.

I wouldn't be so sure. I remember reading that a majority of transwomen are male attracted, even if they realize this after the process of transition has begun. Sorry, but I'm too lazy to look for links. :p

Actually, it makes sense. 95% (or some might say 90%) of the population is hetero. The will to reproduce as a species is primal and this is why the hardwiring for opposite-sex attraction is so prevalent. So why should transwomen be any different?

Steph, congratulations ... I'm very happy for you. I'm also thrilled that things are going well at work, that you and Angie have come out of this as friends, and that she is moving on as well.

:hugs:

[bas1985]

"rain on her parade"... :) sorry, it is such a lovely way of saying. (In italian we say literally: to "owl" --like the bird--).

I will put some other sunshine instead. I am happy about this, very happy, as Reine says, we are not (so much) different from women,
and women are 90% heterosexual so why TS women should be different also in this case? I too have noticed that beginning my
transition I am starting to behave, fantasize, dream about a romantic relationship with a man, heterosexual man (which sees me
as a woman...).

Safety.... yes, this might be a concern, I would suggest as other have said maybe just another date with someone else, just to know each other a little more... and, well, yes, I would make sure that he understands fully that I am TS pre-op.

[Kathryn Martin]

Steph, you met a man who wants to see you again. He has asked you for a date and you appear to be attracted to him. Second dates usually don't end up in bed...... Have a date and have fun then you can decide whether he is worth telling about your history.

[Angela Campbell]

I have never been attracted to a man and in fact feel quite uncomfortable around them usually. But when alone and thinking about my future, I have to wonder. After I have SRS will I want to use the new equipment? I know I will be very curious about that.

[MysticLady]

My friends don’t think that he knows but told me to just go out with him and see what happens. I think that I should tell him before we go out.

Hi Steph, The feelings of being desired are wonderful but, come w/ much responsibility. I would let him know up front who you are and what your about. He may desire you still but, he may change his mind. I believe you owe him that. You'll feel better about it yourself. Good Luck. Oh, and don't give it up too easily. Let him spend a few bucks on you:heehee:

[JohnH]

Johanna your comments sound kind of homophobic to me. Steph is a woman and excited about a date. Why bother to comment when the rest of us are happy for her. Besides you've made it clear numerous times you're different from us. Why rain on her parade?

I did have second thoughts later on about my rather harsh posting. When I wrote my posting I did not think I was raining on Steph's parade. I wish Steph happiness with her date and I hope it goes well. All I was doing at the time was to share my feelings about men.

Sorry.

Johanna

[PortiaHoney]

People get far too hung up on where first dates will go.

Go out. Have a good time. Make sure you don't get into a situation where it could get dangerous. If things look like they are getting serious, let him know. There should never be any nasty surprises for either party. Last thing you want to hear from him is "oh, I already knew".

I dabbled in guys before transition, but could never figure out why as I did not identify as gay. Just some attraction I couldn't define. Now I am strictly guys and entertain thoughts about girls (probably more of a trip down memory lane).

People think about these things far to much. Should just enjoy how things go and stick to what "feels" right.

[steph1964]

Thank you everyone! I see that there is a mix of opinions which makes me feel better that I was completely perplexed on what to do. If he doesn't know, I am afraid that he would figure it out because I just don't think that I pass that well, especially outside a dimly lit bar. I think that I am going to see how everything goes the next time at the bar, and if everything is still good and he asks me out again then I will tell him.

This sexual orientation change is so confusing so I am glad to hear others have experienced the same. I was sure that I would continue to like women because I had no interest in males prior to starting this process.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Steph IF you are certain you are ready for any outcome, and your heart says go for it then by all means go for it

but I would not pursue this

It's too early.. It's flattering but you have no idea where your head is at. You have no idea where HIS head is at..
Your transition is job one, two and three.

I'm all for experimenting, but i'd try to do it on YOUR terms, with YOUR timing..
In a perfect world, you control your transition. You control who knows. You protect yourself emotionally and physically. Especially in the early parts of it..

btw, in my own and my friends experience, for the men that date girls with penis...they are ALL about the penis.

[melissakozak]

Just be careful. I have been hit on numerous times, and I have not gone out once with any of them because A) I am married B) I know they know and also know I am more of a fling than a date C) Not into hookups.

That being said, go out to lunch in broad daylight. This takes the 'edge' off of a date. Lunch sets a time limit, provides the safety of daylight and keeps 'sex' off the table. It is awesome feeling to be hit on and asked out, in fact, it is flattering. The first couple of times, it can produce a whole host of different emotions. Have fun and be safe....

[FurPus63]

Hi Steph,

I too have had a complete reversal (flip-flop) of my sexual orientation since beginning HRT 15 months ago. I have always considered myself bisexual but leaned towards woman back in the day. Now I lean almost completely toward men and am finding it rather bizzarre and hard to deal with. I have a boyfriend (it helps that he's CD and enjoys being made-up like a girl from time-to-time) and the other day we spent a lot of time sitting on the couch kissing (just kissing, like teenagers on a date).

It is sooooo cool! I enjoy it so much! I know I am very much in-love with him so that helps too; but even after two months of dating and being with him (we have some sexual contact but waiting for my SRS to do what we really want to do, lol) I still find myself "freaking out" sometimes. I keep having to remind/tell myself, "I'm a woman now, so it's o.k."

This whole TS thing and transitioning is quite a trip! There's been lots of pleasant surprises along the way and many hard-times (loss of family and friends, etc...) but it so worth it all. I can't wait to complete the process. But in the mean-time; I'm enjoying my new life, my new boyfriend, and this new experience of making-out and making love with a man. It's all part of becoming a woman (whole) I think. So just try and go with it (your feelings) and don't worry about it. I know it's harder said than done, but it's all part of this process. So enjoy!

As for going on a date with this guy. I say go for it! It shows you are being accepted in the world as a woman, and that's a cool thing! Yes, I know sometimes we think we're not passible when in fact we are. Even if some people still "clock" or "read" us (I find mostly woman do more than men) that doesn't mean the whole world is. You look very feminine and very pretty in your pic here on this website. Try to put those feelings of doubt away, they don't do much good for our self-esteem and we need to remind ourselves that it's probably our imagination that "everyone is reading me." You know what I mean?

As for when do you tell the guy? That's hard to answer. On one hand safety is always a number one priority and you certainly don't want to be in a dangerous situation where someone is attempting violence on you. However; if this guy really likes you, although he may not want to date you again, once he knows you still have a penis, you never know. Sometimes even if someone considers themselves totally heterosexual, if the attraction and feelings (chemistry) is there he might decide to just go for it and continue dating you. I went on a date once with a guy who had no idea I was trans, and when I told him although shocked and didn't want to date me again, he didn't threaten me with violence. He just said he couldn't believe I wasn't a GG. So I took it as a huge compliment and it gave me a boost in my self-confidence for sure. So you could consider going on one date and have the experience of being treated like a lady (it's so cool!); then tell him. Yes, he'll be disappointed but by then you'll have had a chance to let him get to know you as a person and vice-versa. More than likely he wont turn to violence at that point. I think it would be far more dangerous for you if sex was expected, so just let on right away that you have no intentions of getting sexually intimate with him. Just try to go on the date, and have fun as the lady you are!!!!

Paulette

[steph1964]

I had planned on talking to the guy on Saturday and making sure he knew that I was TS but I hadn't decided if I was comfortable going on a date. However things didn't go as planned.

I often go to the bar after work presenting as a male (I start working as a female next week!). Friday was my day off but I had a laser appointment and met my wife and mother in law for dinner so I was presenting as a male. On the way home I met up with some of my friends at the bar.

We had been there for over an hour when my friend saw the guy walk past us heading to the restroom. It turned out that he had been there for a couple of hours. I was presenting as a male so I didn't want him to see me. Soon after we saw him, he talked to the bartender, a friend of mine, and asked her if it was me. She confirmed it was then he came over to talk to me.

I was very nervous as he approached but he was nice. He told me that he recognized my friend and heard me talking (my English accent) and first wondered if I was Stephanie's brother. He was watching us for a while and finally figured it out. Although we were hanging out for over 3 hours the day we met, he told me that he had no idea I was TS. That was a major confidence boost!

Everything worked out great. I found out that I pass better than I thought (I do know that I will not pass with everyone) and I got to spend Saturday night out with three of my gg friends on a girls night.

[laurie01]

It must be very awkward to have the reversal of sexual orientation. I would say if you really like him then date him. If he tries anything your uncomfortable with then just show him your badge.

[Lexi_83]

You are really cute no wonder he wants to date!

I've only dated friends of friends who know I am not GG. To date someone who might not know seems scary and dangerous, not that I think it's at all possible they would not know. I've usually arranged our first date at a party or club and meet them there.

Just like any other dating situation, it doesn't usually work out after a few dates. I find texting sort of "fills in the blanks" about someone and you either start to connect, or not.

If you are dating a guy who identifies as straight and neither of you want to go anyplace where someone you know might see you, it can be especially difficult to do anything but go to their place or have them come to yours, both of which have their risks.

[Janelle_C]

Hi Stef
Sexual orientation and gender identity are two separate things. One study shows that the number of fully transitioned transgender people that prefer the company of the same gender is about 47%, and the number that prefer the opposite gender is about 54%. They say that the numbers are fluid with an overlap to take in account those who are bisexual.
All that said I’m happy that you are living your life your way. There is no right or wrong on who you should be attracted to. But I do agree you should be safe. Janelle

[abigailf]

Enough with doubting your self confidence. From the pictures I see you look great. Your friends tell you that you look great. To top it off, you got picked up and was confirmed that he didn't know. Sweetie, you pass so put that behind you and start working on the rest of your agenda.

I too like dating men after HRT. Though I still contest I am bi. Actually, I don't really care about orientation anymore. I like people for who they are, not what they are.

[Jennifer Marie P.]

Steph of course tell him and see what happens.

[GaleWarning]

Friday was my day off but I had a laser appointment and met my wife and mother in law for dinner so I was presenting as a male. .

Have I missed something?
Are you married?
If so, then everything changes ....

[steph1964]

I am separated from my wife but we aren't divorced yet, and we are very close. She is dating someone else.

[Lexi_83]

What makes me uncomfortable sometimes is when I meet someone and they assume I plan to transition, when I do not.

But you are very cute, cuteness trumps all!

[Michelle.M]

Steph IF you are certain you are ready for any outcome, and your heart says go for it then by all means go for it

but I would not pursue this

It's too early.. It's flattering but you have no idea where your head is at.

Nonsense. She's a big girl and she can make big girl decisions. I started dating my current boyfriend when I was a month or so into my RLE and after a year and a half we couldn't be happier.


Your transition is job one, two and three.

Yes, and transition relies heavily on successfully navigating Real Life Experiences. Personal relationships are real life. If she's so inclined, then it's game on!


Soon after we saw him, he talked to the bartender, a friend of mine, and asked her if it was me. She confirmed it was then he came over to talk to me.

. . . he told me that he had no idea I was TS. That was a major confidence boost!

Everything worked out great.

OK, you're leaving us hanging. This guy, who finds you to be an attractive woman, now knows you're trans and is at least accepting enough not to have gotten ugly with you about the discovery.

Is he OK with dating a pre-op trans woman? Are you going to see him again? If so, that would be great!

[Nicole Brown]

Let's face it, we are all different with different needs, wants and desires. Who is to say, judge or determine what is right and what is wrong, we can only make these determinations for ourselves. Personally, I have been hetro my entire life and now that I am in transition, have been on HRT for 8 months and 2 months into my RLE I find no change in my orientation.

That's right, I am still hetro and I now find myself attracted to men. I have been out on several dates and find that, like us, no two men are alike. They differ in their ability to accept us, their level of acceptance of us and if they do accept, how they treat us once our little secret is discovered. IMHO, not to date is to not move forward. As previously mentioned, dating is part of the RLE and needs to be experienced. My dating experiences, which have been strictly with men, have been a mixed bag. Several relationships were short lived, one very short lived, a couple did not end pleasantly but one is still alive and well.

My point is this, it only takes one date with one man to create the right chemistry to build a relationship. Maybe I am a dreamer, of just plain foolish, but I look forward to, and so badly desire, to settle down with the right gentlemen and possible even marry.

[Lexi_83]

Nicole, I would add that the attitude of almost any guy (or gal) you date can evolve or time. A "totally straight" guy who is dating a tgirl can have changes of heart about how intimate the relationship can become. And sometimes the attitudes of their friends and family can create obstacles.

That is all beyond the first date stage, which is supposed to be fun!

[Nicole Brown]

Nicole, I would add that the attitude of almost any guy (or gal) you date can evolve or time. A "totally straight" guy who is dating a tgirl can have changes of heart about how intimate the relationship can become. And sometimes the attitudes of their friends and family can create obstacles.

That is all beyond the first date stage, which is supposed to be fun!

Well, actually I agree with some of what you have said Lexi, but not quite all of it. First, what would a "strictly straight" guy have to do with me, or any of us for that matter, if he knew we were trans? Any guy that is interested on one of us, knowing our little secret, cannot be "strictly straight".

I can agree if he has no idea that the lady holding his interest is actually trans. Determining if he is straight or not can be determines by his actions once he discovers that the lovely lady he is infatuated with is actually trans... I also agree that these issues are usually not associated with a first date and usually only surface after several dates have been shared.

[Michelle.M]

First, what would a "strictly straight" guy have to do with me, or any of us for that matter, if he knew we were trans? Any guy that is interested on one of us, knowing our little secret, cannot be "strictly straight".

That's absurd, and a remarkably uneducated statement. Why would you say such a thing?

Being gay has nothing to do with the plumbing that your partner has. The word "homosexual" is derived from the Greek prefix meaning "same". The only way that a straight man would not be interested in a trans woman is if he saw her as a man. And if, as we assert, we are actually women with (as we tend to describe it) a birth defect, then there's no issue with a straight man wanting a trans woman unless he's merely transphobic (but not gay). Or unless he just prefers genetic women but is not necessarily transphobic. But being straight is not the deal breaker here.

A gay man has absolutely no interest in us. So if a guy is not "strictly straight" then what is he? Is he also not "strictly gay" either?

Please try not to project your own prejudices onto someone else's relationship.

[ReineD]

Michelle, to be honest, there are hetero men who do not take kindly to being told their girlfriend or wife's history as a genetic male. And these same men would not be interested if they knew from the onset. There's a current thread in the Media section on the topic.

Hopefully there's a spectrum to everything, which means that a post-op's physical origins would not matter to some straight males. But I've no idea if they would be the minority, the majority, or if it is closer to 50/50.

I totally agree that gay men are not interested in women, whether they are genetic or not.

And then there are the men who are interested pre-op but not post, which in my opinion is deplorable.

[Michelle.M]

Michelle, to be honest, there are hetero men who do not take kindly to being told their girlfriend or wife's history as a genetic male.

I get that, but that's not what we're talking about here. Nicole's comment was


Any guy that is interested on one of us, knowing our little secret, cannot be "strictly straight".

You're referring to men making some sort of belated or unexpected discovery and reacting adversely. Entirely different from Nicole's statement, wherein she's saying that the sexual orientation of any man who would want a trans woman is suspect.

That's antiquated thinking and, quite frankly, a bit cissexist.

[ReineD]

I agree that men who feel this way are sissexist. This is as deplorable as the men who drop a TS after transition.

As to Nicole's comment, I agree that she is not saying the same thing I said, but I was not addressing her comment. I was rather addressing what you said, "But being straight is not the deal breaker here" and was pointing out that sometimes it is. But is it necessarily caused by transphobia, or would the men who do not want to be in relationships with transwomen be able to be their friend otherwise? Admittedly there are no statistics on this and there's no telling what percentage of straight men would have issues vs. those who would not. Pointing this out does not mean that I agree with it. I hate the way that transwomen and post-op women are viewed by many people who are not familiar with the concept of transsexualism.

[Michelle.M]

I agree that men who feel this way are sissexist. This is as deplorable as the men who drop a TS after transition.

When I said that I was referring to Nicole's comment as being cissexist.


As to Nicole's comment, I agree that she is not saying the same thing I said, but I was not addressing her comment. I was rather addressing what you said, "But being straight is not the deal breaker here" and was pointing out that sometimes it is.

No, and that's only true if you regard trans women as actually being men.

Let's review. Why would a man not want to be with a trans woman?

1. He prefers genetic women.

No harm done. We all have our dating preferences.

2. He's transphobic.

But one can be transphobic and straight OR transphobic and gay. So Nicole's comment about suspect sexual orientation doesn't apply here.

3. He IS gay.

Stands to reason that if he's interested in men he's barking up the wrong tree here. So, Nicole's comment about suspect sexual orientation STILL doesn't apply.

If a man is NOT transphobic, NOT particularly fixed on preference for a certain type of woman and NOT gay then a trans woman is just another woman in the dating pool. The only real deal breaker is incompatibility, just as it would be with any other woman.

About half the trans people I know are in some sort of relationship. One trans woman is involved with a trans man, another trans man is with a genetic woman, of the remaining trans women about 40% are transbians and are mostly with genetic women ( a few are with trans women) and the rest are straight trans women and are all with straight genetic men (3 of them were married to their husbands while they were still pre-op; two of them have since had GRS). My boyfriend (straight, BTW) has a friend whose son is a trans man and the son is not currently dating, but anticipates that when he does he'll probably date men.

That trans guy and his future BF would be the only gay men in my circle of trans folks.

[ReineD]

I don't see transwomen as being men. I do see you for who you are.

Your review point #2, transphobic: I suppose it depends on how far we take transphobia. I was saying that some straight men who would not be considered transphobic meaning they do not have a general bias against transwomen, would not be sexually attracted to them because of their chromosomal status. There are stories about this in the Media section and I'm sure untold stories elsewhere.

I'm glad that you do not see any evidence of this among your friends. :)

[Michelle.M]

Your review point #2, transphobic: I suppose it depends on how far we take transphobia. I was saying that some straight men who would not be considered transphobic meaning they do not have a general bias against transwomen, would not be sexually attracted to them because of their chromosomal status.

Still transphobic. When was the last time you ever heard anyone say "Wow, check out the karyotype on THAT one! Have you ever seen 23 pairs of chromosomes arranged quite like that?"

Anyone who claims to have a problem with genetic history as it pertains to the authenticity of someone's gender is only trying to legitimize their transphobia by making it sound scientific.

Look, this is not that difficult to grasp.

If a straight man has a problem being with a [insert your preferred description] then it's because he perceives that [insert your preferred description] to also be a man, and thus assumes that this would be a homosexual relationship.

THAT is the fundamental issue! If the trans woman is regarded as legitimately a woman then Nicole's claim that any guy that is interested on one of us, knowing our little secret, cannot be "strictly straight" is nonsense. If she's a woman then he's straight.

Otherwise, this puts the burden for maintaining the cissexual norm on the trans woman instead of regarding the guy as just another straight man who loves someone irrespective of her birth defect. Just because she has an unusual life history she does not become less of a woman than a genetic woman.

[ReineD]

Logically, of course you are correct! :)

[Rogina B]

Just because she has an unusual life history she does not become less of a woman than a genetic woman.

Sums it up perfectly.

[Lexi_83]

Michelle, to be honest, there are hetero men who do not take kindly to being told their girlfriend or wife's history as a genetic male. And these same men would not be interested if they knew from the onset. There's a current thread in the Media section on the topic.

Hopefully there's a spectrum to everything, which means that a post-op's physical origins would not matter to some straight males. But I've no idea if they would be the minority, the majority, or if it is closer to 50/50.

I totally agree that gay men are not interested in women, whether they are genetic or not.

And then there are the men who are interested pre-op but not post, which in my opinion is deplorable.Just to set the record straight, I was referring to a man who self-identifies as "totally straight" but is now in an emotional and physical relationship with someone who is not legally female. And it has been an adjustment for him, and relatives particularly have made it more difficult.

[Nicole Brown]

It appears that my comment about being "strictly straight" really got your hair in a puff Michelle. Perhaps had you asked, or inquired about the statement I made rather than jumping on it you might have realized what i was trying to indicate. This is not the first time that you have pounced on one of my statements, and while I will always appreciate an open and honest discussion on any topic, I do, and must object to the tone of your reply. I totally understand that everyone is entitled to their opinion, but the tone that is used to express that opinion does not really need to be negative or condescending and that is how I read your reply as being.

My statements were actually based on a conversation I had while spending an evening with several friends. Davis is openly gay and was there with his husband. Jeff was there with his wife Beverly and I was the unaccompanied by anyone. Since my friends have all known me prior to my becoming Nicole I feel totally comfortable in discussing just about any topic with them. Thus, I asked their thoughts on the term strictly straight and how it relates to dating a TS. They all agreed that they could understand a straight guy being interested in a TS, but that when a guy labels himself as "strictly straight" he moves into a different category. This is what my comments and statement were based on, and i believe them to be as true and accurate as anything you have stated. In other words, you have your opinion and I have mine. Both are correct and both are incorrect, based upon who is reading and interrupting them.

I have tried taking the so called high road in this reply and tried not to get personal or be attacking. I sincerely appreciate your opinion and will always be open to a healthy discussion, all I ask is that you please turn the flame down a little bit on you replies. You can make your point, and disagree with someone without making them feel the way your reply to my post made me feel.

[Farrah]

I think you should go ahead and get that out of the way before you go out with him. Give him the opportunity to mull that over in his head. I may be cool with it and then again he might be enraged because you "tricked" him. Tell him as soon as possible before the date. Just my two pennies:)

[FurPus63]

Let's face it, we are all different with different needs, wants and desires. Who is to say, judge or determine what is right and what is wrong, we can only make these determinations for ourselves. Personally, I have been hetro my entire life and now that I am in transition, have been on HRT for 8 months and 2 months into my RLE I find no change in my orientation.

That's right, I am still hetro and I now find myself attracted to men. I have been out on several dates and find that, like us, no two men are alike. They differ in their ability to accept us, their level of acceptance of us and if they do accept, how they treat us once our little secret is discovered. IMHO, not to date is to not move forward. As previously mentioned, dating is part of the RLE and needs to be experienced. My dating experiences, which have been strictly with men, have been a mixed bag. Several relationships were short lived, one very short lived, a couple did not end pleasantly but one is still alive and well.

My point is this, it only takes one date with one man to create the right chemistry to build a relationship. Maybe I am a dreamer, of just plain foolish, but I look forward to, and so badly desire, to settle down with the right gentlemen and possible even marry.

I like what you wrote here. I am naive as to what RLE means (real life experience?) but I have been living my life as a woman full-time for 16 months. I started dating men about the time I began my transition. I found most men just wanted to fullfill a sex fantasy. I did have something with one man that lasted a couple of months, but with the exception of one "real" date, in the end it became clear sex was all he wanted too. Now I have a boyfriend who's CD. That seems to be working pretty good so far. In fact it's gotten pretty serious and now we live together. I think him being CD made it easier for both of us, but love developed for us very quickly and I think that's the key to it. When two people fall in-love, it changes everything. Suddenly sexual orientation is out the window. He sees himself as being a "straight" guy, attracted to and desiring women; yet here we are in this intimate relationship and I'm still pre-op. I consider myself mostly a heterosexual woman now. My feelings of sexual attraction have dramatically changed since starting HRT. I've heard of this happening to some TS girls. I know I'm not the only one that's had this experience. Now I'm thinking that when I get my SRS (changing my birth-certificate and DL to female) we will be able to legally marry. Two years ago the thought of being married to a man was the furtherest thing from my mind. It's amazing to me what this whole transition including HRT have done to me! Sometimes I even get a little "freaked out" about it.

Paulette

[Nicole Brown]

I like what you wrote here. I am naive as to what RLE means (real life experience?) but I have been living my life as a woman full-time for 16 months. I started dating men about the time I began my transition. I found most men just wanted to fullfill a sex fantasy. I did have something with one man that lasted a couple of months, but with the exception of one "real" date, in the end it became clear sex was all he wanted too. Now I have a boyfriend who's CD. That seems to be working pretty good so far. In fact it's gotten pretty serious and now we live together. I think him being CD made it easier for both of us, but love developed for us very quickly and I think that's the key to it. When two people fall in-love, it changes everything. Suddenly sexual orientation is out the window. He sees himself as being a "straight" guy, attracted to and desiring women; yet here we are in this intimate relationship and I'm still pre-op. I consider myself mostly a heterosexual woman now. My feelings of sexual attraction have dramatically changed since starting HRT. I've heard of this happening to some TS girls. I know I'm not the only one that's had this experience. Now I'm thinking that when I get my SRS (changing my birth-certificate and DL to female) we will be able to legally marry. Two years ago the thought of being married to a man was the furtherest thing from my mind. It's amazing to me what this whole transition including HRT have done to me! Sometimes I even get a little "freaked out" about it.

Paulette

Thank you so much for your lovely comment on my post Paulette, it brought a little sunshine into an otherwise somewhat upsetting day. I totally understand what you are saying and how you feel, these darn hormones are throwing my emotions for a loop also. Love is one of the things that truly makes life worth living and who is to say what is right or wrong in a personal loving relationship. To each his/her own is a wonderful little statement that really says it all.

I am so happy that you have found true love and a person who you care enough about that you want to marry them and spend the rest of your life with them. I hope to be fortunate enough to find a similar relationship with as wonderful a person as you have found.

And yes, you are correct about the definition of REL meaning the one year test we must go through prior to GRS.

[Lorileah]

after reading the update, you don't say what he thought about your two appearances? It sounds like he wasn't driven away, but you didn't give him your phone number either. I carry cards, two different ones, both with my email address and one has my cell number. I decide which to give out. It isn't always good either way though. The last guy was an inte4rnet stalker who followed breadcrumbs back to my male persona...and still wanted to date (but hen, he train wreck...which is a whole nuther story). If you like him and he is still interested, then go for it. Carpe diem

[Kathryn Martin]

Still transphobic. When was the last time you ever heard anyone say "Wow, check out the karyotype on THAT one! Have you ever seen 23 pairs of chromosomes arranged quite like that?"

I have no time for the term transphobia. If you are in transition and still have your penis, it's not transphobia it's homophobia. I think Kaitelyn's comment about it possibly being too early is directed at the potential exposure to homophobia and it's attendant dangers. Quite frankly, most straight guys don't like to play with penises. It would not be a far stretch to characterize this as a homosexual relationship at that stage. Experiencing a woman with a penis is a hard thing to crack for straight guys. And no argument or logic will prevent those thoughts from arising.

If the guy loves the woman and is willing to wait around until SRS is completed then that's wonderful. But if the guys on discovering that she is not quite a woman yet takes his leave it's not transphobia or for that matter homophobia. My spouse and I are blissfully married to each other but neither one of us has a same sex orientation. Is that transphobia, homophobia or whatever phobia? There is a tendency in trans circles to call everything under the sun transphobic, like for instance "women have vaginas".

[Michelle.M]

Just to set the record straight, I was referring to a man who self-identifies as "totally straight" but is now in an emotional and physical relationship with someone who is not legally female. And it has been an adjustment for him, and relatives particularly have made it more difficult.

As it should be. Those who become involved with us, as friends, boyfriends, or whatever become partners in our journey. It stands to reason that there will be adjustment issues. How sad that his relatives are mucking this up for him, but I do believe that if he can hang in there he'll find that it's worth the effort.


They all agreed that they could understand a straight guy being interested in a TS, but that when a guy labels himself as "strictly straight" he moves into a different category.

So educate me, please. What is the difference between "straight' and "strictly straight"? And what sort of category does he move into?


I have no time for the term transphobia. If you are in transition and still have your penis, it's not transphobia it's homophobia.

I cannot believe you said that! What you are implying is that a trans woman is still a man until she loses her penis.

I hate to burst your bubble, but gender identity is not dependent on the presence or absence of a body part, and there's nothing magical about GRS that suddenly turns a man into a woman.

It's homophobia if that possibly homophobic man thinks he is dealing with another man, whether that man has a penis or not. If we cite homophobia simply because the trans woman still has her penis then he sees her as a man and not a woman. Denying her self-identified gender (in this case, based on physical attributes) falls under the description of transphobia.

Sorry that you have no time for the term transphobia, but it's a valid term and it exists for a reason.


Quite frankly, most straight guys don't like to play with penises.

I get that. A man, for whatever reason, can exercise his preference to have only one penis in a relationship. Likewise, a man can elect not to date a single mother, or someone with a chronic illness, or a smoker. It's called preference. No harm done.


It would not be a far stretch to characterize this as a homosexual relationship at that stage.

We would characterize this as a homosexual relationship not simply because there's a penis but because he perceives his date to be a man. Two different concepts; having a penis does not affect gender identity.


Experiencing a woman with a penis is a hard thing to crack for straight guys. And no argument or logic will prevent those thoughts from arising.

Oh, no doubt! And a guy has no obligation to accept that! See my earlier comment about preferences in dating.


If the guy loves the woman and is willing to wait around until SRS is completed then that's wonderful.

Yes . . .


But if the guys on discovering that she is not quite a woman

Crikey, what a marvelously shining example of cissexism! "Not quite a woman"? Too bad so many here still have their original plumbing, 'cuz you just delivered a masterful nut-kick!


My spouse and I are blissfully married to each other but neither one of us has a same sex orientation. Is that transphobia, homophobia or whatever phobia?

None of the above. You get to define your own relationship.


There is a tendency in trans circles to call everything under the sun transphobic, like for instance "women have vaginas".

But others, as you have so deftly explained, are "not quite a woman".

[MysticLady]

Well Steph, how are things going w/ your "new" boyfriend? Inquiring minds want too know:)

[Nicole Brown]

So educate me, please. What is the difference between "straight' and "strictly straight"? And what sort of category does he move into?
.


You know something, I would, except you would most probably just argue with that also, so why bother.

[Michelle.M]

You know something, I would, except you would most probably just argue with that also, so why bother.

In your earlier post you said that a man who would be interested in a trans woman could not be "strictly straight" and then in your last post you differentiated between "straight" and "strictly straight" and explained that when a guy labels himself as "strictly straight" he moves into a different category.

I'm sure that I'm not the only person here who is hearing these terms for the first time, and I'm sure others would be interested in knowing what "strictly straight" means and what that other category is.

If you don't care to explain that's up to you, but my asking an honest question does not automatically make me argumentative. My argument arose from your previous implication that a man who is interested in a trans woman may in fact not be straight.

If he's not straight then that means the trans woman is perceived to not be a woman. THAT is what I have an argument with.

I'm asking you to clarify and to help move the discussion forward. Or not. Your call.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

strictly straight is a strange terminology...

straight guys go out with women..
ts women are women...

by adding strictly you are hinting that some guys who are NOT "Strictly straight" go out with us because of our maleness...our exotic nature... that we are not women, we are something more(chic with something extra!!) or less(omg you used to be a dude)

its a casual inartful term at best...and you can see the reaction it caused..

its not rocket science that some straight guys freak out about us because they cannot internally process the reality of our situation...they can't get past it..

and I repeat, if you have a penis, 9 out of 10 your boyfriend is after it, and post surgery you are out of there...

[LeaP]

Nicole,

From a male POV this reduces to:


Straight and accepts trans women as women.

Straight and does not accept trans women as women.

You can qualify the above six ways to Sunday ... e.g., "true women," "in the same way," etc. It amounts to the same thing.

From a trans POV "strictly" sounds suspiciously like "really."

Hearing a trans woman express all this on behalf of the male population comes across to me as buying into it. I wouldn't necessarily go there on the basis of the first post alone, but when you doubled down on the concept, I find it hard to conclude otherwise. And I agree with Michelle that this implication is what triggered the reaction.

[Kathryn Martin]

I believe you are going about this the wrong way. Dating with a view to a physical relationship is seriously hampered by the presence of a penis and if you have a straight guy then with respect it is sometimes difficult to keep a straight face when a claim is made that you are a woman. Don't get me wrong, it does not mean you that are not, it means that by all measures used by straight guys to determine what gender you are a penis is a signpost (pun intended). It's presence raises serious issues as to, uhm what to do with it. Because with all due respect a five inch neoclit is, uhmmm, sorry .....

Until surgery no matter how much of a woman you are you still are living with your birth defect, and for straight guys this is mostly gross.

And Michelle, gender identity is not so much a problem for transsexuals. It's the defective body that is.

[Michelle.M]

* sigh *

Kathryn, what is with this obsession with genitalia? How is it that you can't seem to understand that sexual orientation doesn't really have much to do with plumbing (or am I misreading you)? And no, it's not at all difficult to state with certainty that one is a woman, albeit with a penis.

Yes, straight guys tend to get squeamish when their dates have penises, and "what to do about it" is a challenge. But there are many, many straight couples, wherein one is trans, who seem to be doing just fine and enjoying a healthy, heterosexual relationship irrespective of plumbing.

It's just not any more of an issue than we make it.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I'm not sure what sexual orientation is about if its not at lease partially to do with the plumbing...

I think a lot of this conversation is influenced by personal experience... I have a lot of trans friends..i dated both before and after surgery...it is the darkest night vs the lightest day..they are not comparable situations.

One "Straight" guy I dated literally begged me for one more date (ie sex) PRIOR to my surgery..."cmon its my last chance"..UGH!!!

Show me a straight guy that likes touching penises and i'll show you a bisexual/gay guy...

You assert Michelle that there are many MANY straight couples where one is trans with a penis...how many??

Anything is possible...I'm certain that there are great guys out there that look past the birth defect...there are not many many of them...

the spectrum of human sexuality and feelings about it is infinitely variable.. no one can know for sure why some guy digs you...no one can no for sure whether he'll leave after srs...
I can say though that ALL there guys I dated pre surgery have no interest in me...and they are not dating other pre-op women (or crossdressers)...

and that is consistent with my post op friends experience...

You said "It's just not any more of an issue than we make it"...
I'm not making this issue up Michelle.
..as you like to say "that's absurd"

[Michelle.M]

You assert Michelle that there are many MANY straight couples where one is trans with a penis...how many??

Dunno, but including me I know a half dozen (although 3 of them have since had GRS).

[LeaP]

It's funny – I didn't interpret the original "problematic" comment with Pre-Op versus Post-Op status. That's even considering the "our little secret" bit. So the plumbing point was irrelevant to my response.

That said, I tend to agree with Kaitlyn that a guy's heterosexual attraction is more of a theoretical possibility. That is, the initial attraction is real… but I would expect that it is with the unexamined, unthinking assumption that the person he is attracted to is a GG. The theoretical possibility applies the few who would be unfazed by the subsequent disclosure. My guess – and it's only a guess – is that there might be a few more unfazed by a Post-Op than a Pre-Op, but still a small minority.

But what do I know? I've only experienced this once, briefly. And *I*was the one who was surprised ...

[Kathryn Martin]

Kathryn, what is with this obsession with genitalia? How is it that you can't seem to understand that sexual orientation doesn't really have much to do with plumbing (or am I misreading you)? And no, it's not at all difficult to state with certainty that one is a woman, albeit with a penis.

Women have no penis unless they have a birth defect. Sexual orientation can be heterosexual or same sex attraction. For transsexuals it's all about sex and not about gender. There are straight heterosexual couples one of whom has a vagina and one of whom has a penis. That by all accounts defines a hetero sexual attraction. Same sex attraction is between persons who are of the same sex (not gender).

If you have a couple with same sex plumbing that is being enjoyed between them, they are not heterosexual.

This is not an issue that we make. It is an issue because it is out there. I have no interest in men who want to boink a tranny because they think it's kinky or something. The heterosexual men I have encountered who love my pre-op friends are not homosexual and cannot possibly wait until the surgery is done. They are very circumspect around the plumbing because they are not homosexual. It is their sacrifice.

There is a huge sexual orientation aspect to trans women, because with all due respect that is what gets the windmill of everyone's mind going. Even post op if you are not experienced and witnessed as a woman first (before you disclose) then there are potential issues that can be very hurtful. This is practical advice not some philosophical discussion.

[Michelle.M]

Sorry, I can't support anything you've said here. I respect your right to your opinion, but your perspective is extremely limited and too narrowly-focused for us to have dialog on this.

Let's agree to disagree.

[Kathryn Martin]

Fair enough, I just think it is incredibly important to be very practical about these things. No amount "what should be right" can overcome a straight guy's experience when the penis is two inches away from his face and he has to do something with it. Same with a heterosexual women which is faced with a vagina. That is why some people prefer keeping their penis during transition because the alternative could mean that intimacy goes out the window, which may or may not affect the relationship.

The OP is faced with these kind of aspects and decisions.

[Rianna Humble]

This thread has been taken so far off topic that it is now closed.