Logical vs Illogical

[VickiTheGamer]

From what I have read, if I were to have my Testicles removed, my body would begin the Male to Female transformation without having to take a ton of Hormones. I have no idea how dramatic the change would be but this leads to a question. Wouldn't it be more logical and healthier to get the Sexual Reassignment Surgery first, and then IF hormones are needed to progress further, they be taken?

To be direct with this. I do not like the idea of pumping a ton of Hormones into my body where stuff could go wrong from them. I think the surgery should be available to any adult and NOT require living x number of years as a women. There are a large number of Lesbian women whom live and look male. So, what if I were wanting to be that way. A masculine lesbian. A women whom people think is a male, except I have a vagina instead of a penis? How come that is not permitted?

Yes yes yes, live as a women to make sure your making the right choice. And....if I were wanting to be a masculine passable male with a vagina, then have I not been living it already for years?

Not only would I be able to avoid possible harmful hormones from animals and such, I would be changing naturally due to a lack of Testosterone. Given the option, I think I would choose Surgery today and let the women in me come out over time AFTER the surgery is done.

[ReineD]

I'm not sure, but are hormones required for the one (or two?) year Real Life Experience? Isn't RLE the standard to follow before getting SRS?

[bas1985]

the fact is that SRS is, of course, irreversible. Hormones, especially at a lower dose and for a limited period of time, are reversible, much more than a surgery...

psychotherapy is a lot more reversible than hormones... so the order of things is "natural" from the lowest intrusive to the greatest intrusive.

psychotherapy THEN hormones THEN SRS

if I were a doctor I would suggest first the reversible path, than the irreversible. the question is different, why would a man would want to remain a man.... but with a vagina? The reason is a bit obscure to me, maybe I am a bit narrow minded, but it seems to me a strange thing.

[Rianna Humble]

Vicki, I'm not sure where you have read that the body begins Male to Female transformations simply because you have a low testosterone count, but I'm afraid that bears as much relation to reality as believing that the moon is made of Swiss cheese (when everyone knows it is French cheese:heehee:).

You are willing to cut off the primary source of testosterone but are unwilling to ingest the oestrogen that would be necessary to balance the loss if you were truly transsexual.

Unfortunately, if you have enough money, then you can obtain any surgery - no matter how ill advised. That is how we have people like Charles Kane pretending to be an expert on the so-called evils of SRS because they bought their way past all of the checks and balances.

Your mis-characterisation of lesbians is grossly insulting and deserves no more response than that.

The Real Life Experience is necessary for a transsexual's mental well-being

The fact that you are not willing to consider living in the role before you go for a designer vagina, suggests strongly to me that you are merely indulging in a dangerous fantasy.

[noeleena]

Hi.

Okay wether your male or female does not matter you need T & E regardless of what ever surgerys you have or dont. plain & simple,

For a male you need Testosterone , For a female you need Estrogen = Ostrogen plus other hormones that your body receptors can use, with out going into all the detail your body use's many other & can convert them for other needs,

if your body does not have the right amount & what it needs youll have health issues = bone repair wont happen brittle bones later in life, & many more.

Im a menopusal woman, & need my hormones to be right to keep my body healthy & with out health issues,

if you think surgery as a dont need what ever you need too replace or remove, what your body cant make so you need suppliments to over come that, hence H R T, men & women after surgerys .

your body wont change as you think it will after surgery' or surgery's, it does not work like that, your body will remain the same just less strength & health issues,

unless you are like those of us who are intersexed then yes our bodys can change & do. this depends on a lot of factors for us, mine did & has, with out hormone replacement, & Please remember this is ...ONLY... those of us intersexed people. & even then not all.

Have a word with your Endocrinologist, get a base blood count done 17 tests covers whats needed & you have no health issues, or taken ...OTHER... drugs meds or whatever, then go from there,

Iv not covered all the detail just given you something to work on .

...noeleena...

[Angela Campbell]

Not only would I be able to avoid possible harmful hormones from animals and such, I would be changing naturally due to a lack of Testosterone. Given the option, I think I would choose Surgery today and let the women in me come out over time AFTER the surgery is done.

You would be quite disappointed when you found out it doesn't work this way. Lack of testosterone does not have that effect.

[linda allen]

You should really be talking to a medical doctor, one who specializes in this sort of thing rather than asking questions about life changing surgery on a web forum.

Cutting off your "junk" may eventually make you less masculine (loss of muscle tone, etc.), but it won't make you feminine.

[Megan Thomas]

Another consideration is the donor tissue SRS needs if the scrotal flap technique is used. Simply put, if only the testicles are removed first the scrotal skin will atrophy and the resultant vaginal canal subsequent surgery creates will be much smaller.

There are drugs available which will cause the testes to cease virtually all testosterone production if you wish to explore that without surgically removing them.

[LeaP]

As stated, any surgery can be had, though not necessarily easily. An orchiectomy, however, is more easily had than SRS.

What's a little appalling is that you are even THINKING about something so drastic without having done the first bit of research on the topic. It's sort of like proposing burning the house down because you'd like things nice and sterile (no pun intended). It's OK to ask questions. It's OK to not know things. It's not such a great idea to jump off cliffs.

We require sex hormones to regulate cellular processes throughout our bodies, including for all kinds of things unrelated to secondary sex characteristics. Without them, you will weaken and sicken. Effects would vary depending on what your body produces naturally apart from the testes (both androgens and estrogens), but the minimum likely scenario would be a major case of osteoporosis.

It's possible that through suppressing testosterone alone that you MIGHT have SOME feminization. FALSE feminization from effects like simple fat accumulation (e.g., moobs). Minor true feminization from the low levels of estrogen the male body produces - IF (BIG IF) - you have sufficient natural estrogen (and almost no-one does), IF your estrogen receptors are sufficiently sensitive enough to activate, and IF testosterone and other androgens produced elsewhere in your body don't leave you T dominant anyway.

Your concept of "a ton of hormones" is off the mark. Most doctors, as well as published guidelines from organizations like the Endocrine Society, call for hormone levels in the normal range of the target sex. That's where my blood serum estradiol levels are, and I get there with a very low dosage. The flip side of the equation is anti-androgens. The most commonly used drugs are extremely benign for short-to-medium term use in particular, and can sometimes be dropped after becoming estrogen dominant.

Lots of people like an androgynous look. Your language goes beyond that to suggest wanting to remain in the male world.

Finally, physicians are almost universally (and properly) opposed to changing healthy tissues unless they are satisfied of the need. I don't ever expect to see SRS surgery on demand as a result. I would not do it were I a surgeon, without proof of both hormone therapy and RLE.

[Lorileah]

logically then eunuchs would all be female in body type...right? In other words...no. And TSs who have SRS still have to take estrogens.

If it were that easy, doctors would have done that from the start and saved a whole bunch of worries about liver enzymes and blood clots

[Leanne2]

I have never seen a eunuch. What do they look like? Leanne

[KellyJameson]

Circumstances did to me and my brother what you are considering intentionally and both my brother and I suffer health affects from it so I would urge you to think carefully about this.

Probably due to chemical poisoning of my mother or some other environmental factor both my brother and I did not develop normally in the womb and later in childhood.

We both have insulin insensitivity and each experienced cryptorchidism and hypospadias resulting in his body absorbing both testicles and I only having one testicle descend which was later removed in my late twenties due to cancer.

He and I, to a lesser extent, never experienced the development of secondary sexual characteristics.

Even though he identifies as male he looks like a female with no facial masculinization, body hair or typical muscle and bone growth associated with being male.

The absence of testosterone prevented the typical changes that would normally have taken place but once these changes take place you cannot reverse them chemically to the same degree that nature originally did during puberty.

On a cellular level I do not respond well to testosterone where my brother does but we had different fathers so there may be a genetic influence to it.

You want to be clear about your psychological reaction to the loss of testosterone as your bodies physiological reaction before you remove your testicles or it could go very badly for you.

Psychologically I had a very bad reaction to testosterone because my brain did not know what to do with it.

Think of it as if your brain is wired to be one way but you are sending the wrong electrical current through it and it makes you feel "backwards" or "reversed" from what you are.

Testosterone caused me panic attacks where with my brother it calmed him and gave him clarity but for me it caused confusion, anxiety, paranoia, dissociation. Testosterone was experienced by my brain as a form of trauma and resulted in my having CPTSD and ADHD

In the absence of testosterone I began to psychologically heal so I was being literally poisoned by it and had many of the same psychological problems woman do when they are high testosterone.

We had opposite reactions to it and he identifies as male where I never did.

If you are experiencing GD or identify as female I would suggest taking the necessary steps to go on HRT to have a chance to watch yourself and see how you psychologically feel in the absence of testosterone before such a drastic step as permanently removing the source of much of your testosterone.

That state of "well being" is dependent on it.

[kimdl93]

it seems to me that one would be well advised to seek professional advice before pursuing anything so radical...given that any thought?

[Kathryn Martin]

ahem, the removal of testicles makes you a castrate, it doesn't begin any transformation other than the consequences of removing your major testosterone producing organs, and the change would not be very dramatic. Without female hormones the changes won't take place.

[Inna]

hormonal balance is very significant in maintaining healthy cell metabolism. By removing T and without introducing E, cell metabolism will not be able to stay in balance, chemical imbalance and atrophy may, and probably will, arise. Little of T still produced by Adrenal Glands isn't enough for healthy organism.

[VickiTheGamer]

Thank you everyone for your input. My thought process was more on the aspect that I am one of those people that try to avoid medications and such. Then I was thinking, "hmmm... the testicles is were we get testosterone from... if they were gone...". And thus, my ideas. As for lesbians. I am sorry. I will try harder to consider my words and the idea I am trying to convey. I apologize to any and all that I have offended with my comments.

I understand now more closely the needs for the medications. I was thinking they were pretty much to keep one feminized. I completely forgot about aspects like the changes in bones and other bodily needs that those medications provide once the change takes place.

I appreciate the intelligence this whole group offers. As for myself, I am not necessarily looking to get surgery and stay a man with a vagina. I just didn't understand why so many restrictions and requirements. I just figured, if a person were paying for it themselves, not insurance, or a city like San Francisco, but out of their own pocket. Then why all the extra steps and years of proving one is a women inside. I do now understand that, it's not only the desire to make sure this IS the right move, but as mentioned, taking the less invasive steps are always the safer and healthier steps first. I guess the old saying, one has to crawl before they learn to walk and they have to walk before they can run is true.

Ok, I lied a little about the wanting a Vagina vs a Penis. It is a fantasy, but not one I am willing to jump into or go after. At least, not at this point. I will just keep it in the back of my mind. If you are pondering on why, well, I just can't stand the Penis. It's disgusting and ..... well lets just say, even though I put mine to use for enjoyment and pleasure, I don't really like having one. The testicles are constantly getting squished here and there by pants and such (yeah, I have very big testicles. Ugh) and it hurts. So sometimes I think to myself, "I wonder how wonderful it must be to not have this thing hanging down, with it's testicles getting squished and how horrible pants fit sometimes".

So, my mind wandered and I began to wonder about the process and question why 2 years?, why have to live as a female?, how do they judge how feminine your life style is?, Etc. Alas, I will continue to live with my penis. As ugly and disgusting as it might seem to be to me because, the fact is, your right. Once you go for it, there isn't going back.

You are all so very wonderful to have taken the time to share with me. Thank you and again, I really am sorry if I got anyone upset or angry at me. I just don't have anyone in my life I can even try to share these ideas, thoughts and conversations with. Only all of you.

Love you all,
Vicki

[stefan37]

Well if your testicles hurt and are a huge problem. You can get them removed without much fanfare. Orchieotomies are relatively easy to get. You could take testosterone to supplement what the body is lacking. Physicians will be much more willing to prescribe T to a male than E to a mtf.

[dreamer_2.0]

From what I have read, if I were to have my Testicles removed, my body would begin the Male to Female transformation without having to take a ton of Hormones. I have no idea how dramatic the change would be but this leads to a question. Wouldn't it be more logical and healthier to get the Sexual Reassignment Surgery first, and then IF hormones are needed to progress further, they be taken?

Removing the testicles obviously would cut off the testosterone supply to the body but, despite that, do male bodies create enough natural female hormones to promote transformation? Not being a medical expert I can only guess that it doesn't, or, if it does, it would probably take a much longer time.

I believe my "member" is one of, if not the, biggest source of dysphoria. As such, SRS first would be fantastic...BUT...as previously mentioned it's irreversible whereas hormonal changes, to an extent, are. It only make sense to experiment with that which is reversible rather than that which isn't.


To be direct with this. I do not like the idea of pumping a ton of Hormones into my body where stuff could go wrong from them.

I think that's a fair stance, but this is why any hormone use should be supervised by doctors who understand the good and the bad thereby decreasing the chance of something going wrong. The fact that some people self-medicate with this is perplexing (though, admittedly, I have considered it in the past...prior to hours of research).


I think the surgery should be available to any adult and NOT require living x number of years as a women.

Agreed! Well, sort of. The RLE scares the crap out of me. I'd rather get all the work done and THEN live as a woman. It doesn't work that way though despite impulsive wishes. The hoops and red tape are set up to ensure we are making the right decision. We may feel we are but have you ever made an impulsive decision in the past that's turned out sour? It's happened to me about once or a thousand times. Considering the life implications of SRS doesn't it make sense to approach it with some caution?


There are a large number of Lesbian women whom live and look male. So, what if I were wanting to be that way. A masculine lesbian. A women whom people think is a male, except I have a vagina instead of a penis? How come that is not permitted?

Did these masculine lesbians go out and get a penis? If you didn't ask them, could you tell? They may look masculine but didn't have any surgery to look that way. Similarly, there are lots of feminine men who can pull of looking like women very easily but I bet they still have their penises. It's not always the case, but probably is a lot of the time.


Not only would I be able to avoid possible harmful hormones from animals and such, I would be changing naturally due to a lack of Testosterone. Given the option, I think I would choose Surgery today and let the women in me come out over time AFTER the surgery is done.

Given the option, I too would likely choose SRS sooner than later however given the amount of poor decisions I've made in life it's probably best to be guided by people who know a helluva lot more than me and to follow their rules.

[linda allen]

............. well, I just can't stand the Penis. It's disgusting and ..... well lets just say, even though I put mine to use for enjoyment and pleasure, I don't really like having one. The testicles are constantly getting squished here and there by pants and such (yeah, I have very big testicles. Ugh) and it hurts. So sometimes I think to myself, "I wonder how wonderful it must be to not have this thing hanging down, with it's testicles getting squished and how horrible pants fit sometimes".

Vicki, have you considered seeing a therapist or other professional about your feelings? If not, I think you should. You are considering some pretty drastic measures just so your pants will fit better.

[kimdl93]

This discussion underscores the value of counseling. It's easy to say I'd rather ......but each and every such assumption has to be tested. We're talking irreversible actions here...not suppression of testosterone ore elevating estrogens. Frankly, old go for changing my physical presentation first, hormonal changes second, and surgery last.

[Nicole Brown]

Vicki, Everything that all of the girls have told you is absolutely true. I however have another concern based on your original question and the understanding you obtained from reading.

As a pre op transsexual woman I either have gone through everything which has been discussed, am going through it now or will be going through it within the coming year. The single most important thing you can do to ensure your health, sanity and well being is to find and utilize the services of a qualified gender therapist. Rather than asking us about such topics, I believe it is in your best interest to work with a trained and experienced professional. Good luck...

[bas1985]

Frankly, old go for changing my physical presentation first, hormonal changes second, and surgery last.

Without doubt. In fact some centers here in Italy require to go full time even before HRT (because they want to see your level of commitment)

[Angela Campbell]

Want to test their commitment? Just lay them down on the table for 4 or 5 hrs of electrolysis and see if they come back next week.

[Aprilrain]

I'm always Leary of those who are unwilling to go through, in order, all of the necessary steps of transition. it will take you at least 2 years to grow out your hair anyway! But seriosly, there are so many mental and emotional changes that one needs to go through it makes the physical stuff look easy. Then there are all the people in your life to consider as well, Your not the only one who has to adjust. Transition isn't about getting used to having boobs (which I gotta tell ya takes some time!) it's a whole paradime shift. Everything changes! I don't care how long you have "known you're a girl" until you live it everyday it's just an untested theory.