Accepting Chelsea Manning!

[Sejd]

I was a bit disturbed when I read how the press described Chelsea's condition as a mental disorder. We still have a long way to go, was my thought. I am not commenting on Manning's crime or not crime or anything political, but I think it hurts us all when Chelsea Manning is painted as a mental basket case and that this "Gender Dysphoria" (hate that stamp) is one of the big issues in this persons lack of or misguided judgement of right and wrong. I just hope whis TG will be treated with respect as they (she) do their prisson time.

[arbon]

Ha! Not likely. Even on this site there is not the courtesy to gender her correctly no chance the rest if the world treating her with any compassion or respect

[Amy A]

I've just been on the thread about her in the media section, and have posted there, but I'm really disappointed in the reaction on this forum. The hypocrisy is frankly astounding. My 65 year old dad, who never had any insight into trans issues up until about 4 moths ago, had no problem with using the correct pronouns!!

[Jorja]

The entire Chelsea Manning announcement bothers me. I cannot help but think this is a strategic move that she is using to somehow escape justice. That being said, if she is truly transsexual and serious about transition, I say more power to her. She has an uphill battle on her hands fighting the military system and I wish her the best.

[Sally24]

Apparently the basic information about her being transgendered has been available but not really publicized. The timing for now is because she is preparing to serve a 30 year prison term. Good luck to her in a military prison. Hopefully the media exposure will keep her a little safer and maybe enable her to at least get some basic medical treatment.

[Amy A]

I cannot help but think this is a strategic move that she is using to somehow escape justice.

I've heard this argument a few times on this forum today, and I just don't understand it. What evidence is there to support the notion that Chelsea Manning's life will be easier, or that her sentence would be reduced in any way, now that she has come out as transgender? You say 'to somehow escape justice' but no one has actually expanded on this as yet, or put in in any form of coherent argument. Chelsea's transgenderism was factored in during the trial and her state of mind will have been taken into account by the judge, so I just don't see how a public announcement after the ruling would affect anything at all. The best result she can hope for is treatment and possibly transfer to a women's prison, but I doubt it's a bed of roses in there either.

Sorry to pick on you Jorja, especially when you follow up your comments with support, I'm just feeling a bit angsty about this whole issue.

[dreamer_2.0]

There sure are a lot of supporters asking Obama for a pardon, perhaps the public announcement is intended to get more supporters. Just a thought.

It could also just be because the media feeds on stuff like this and it makes the story more sellable.

Who knows the real reason. Regardless if she is trans it'll likely be a very rough time in prison.

[Leona]

I hate to be the one to break this to y'all, but the fact that Chelsea Manning is transgender has been covered in the press previously, and has been a part of the case since it began. This is decidedly NOT news, and the fact that it was made "public" after the decision means they had no intention of it affecting the legal process up to the sentence. Right now, it's a matter of survival for her, and she very likely faces a hell the rest of us have only seen in our nightmares.

I've personally known she was transgender since before the arraignment. It's been on the Wikipedia page since at least that long. The fact that this is news for any of you is you giving in to the sensationalist nature of this news.

I suspect the announcement was made only because it had previously been in the press, and that for her, this is a step forward, and one we should be applauding and supporting. Even were she a serial killer, we should provide support for her gender dysphoria. She can rot in prison for the rest of her life for all we care about her crimes, but this is America, and she deserves some dignity, and at a certain level, if we, as transgender people, want to be treated with that dignity, then the people in prison who are also transgender deserve the same level of dignity all the other prisoners get.

It's not about the crime.

And yes, I'm obviously annoyed by how she's been lambasted here. I fully accept her as Chelsea Manning, female, and that's the end of that.

[Leona]

And, dare I say, almostaladay, we don't HAVE to understand to be accepting and supporting. It helps, but it's not required.

[Leona]

It's decidedly lacking in this case.

Dear lady, I often make jokes, and that is because I am a fool, but regardless of that, I will always support you and anybody else unconditionally who is transitioning. There is no margin of error here. I'd rather support a prankster and look like an ass than fail to support someone going through this ordeal. And as this particular case shows, I don't care what crimes may or may not have been committed by the person who needs my support, because the support they need is independent of the crime.

I wish I could talk to Chelsea Manning in person. This is one situation where I feel like I'd be the right person to talk to, and that doesn't happen very often.

[dreamer_2.0]

The fact that this is news for any of you is you giving in to the sensationalist nature of this news.

Or it could be because some of us didn't read about her on wiki or know anything about her until the announcement made the news. Shame on us for being surprised at news that is new to us.

[Jorja]

Sorry to pick on you Jorja, especially when you follow up your comments with support, I'm just feeling a bit angsty about this whole issue.

At this point I don't have any answers. I did not know Manning personally and have not spent much time following the case. From what little I have seen about it, it just does not sit well with me. Maybe it is the way the media is presenting it (now that couldn't happen). To me it appears as though she is using the transgender issues as an ace in the hole. What it is going to get her, I don't know. This is just the way I am feeling about the situation right now. You all have the right to feel the way you feel about it. I guess we will have to sit back and see how it progresses.

[Leona]

Or it could be because some of us didn't read about her on wiki or know anything about her until the announcement made the news. Shame on us for being surprised at news that is new to us.

I wasn't trying to disparage, only trying to point out that this aspect of the case has been circulating for a long time. If you didn't catch it before, then I'm sorry.

The fact remains that the GD part of the case has been there pretty much since the beginning, as well as the bullying. This case isn't as cut and dried as it has been presented here.

[Badtranny]

Manning is a mental case and a criminal. The fact that she may be TG has nothing to do with that opinion.

The last thing we need is somebody like her representing us as a transgender person.

I would like to say that I'm surprised that so much of the community is trying to aggrandize her, but unfortunately I am not. Our community is desperately delusional and they will sink us all in their effort to promote an extreme ideology.

I am a trans woman, but I don't call every one who claims to be trans my sister. The sisterhood is a place of honor that must be earned by walking through the fire of transition. Manning doesn't know the meaning of the word honor. Why should we automatically believe someone who has proven to be so untrustworthy?

[PaulaQ]

It's not so much that people are trying to aggrandize her, it's just that there have been other (civilian) prisoners who've been allowed HRT while incarcerated, at least one I can recall was a murderer. I think what bothers a lot of us is that her condition isn't viewed as one that needs medical treatment by many (lots of that here, lots in the military, lots in the civilian world).

There are a wide variety of fairly moderate things that they'd treat on her, and they'd damn sure treat her if she had a heart condition. But being transgendered? No.

Would I be happier if the world didn't now associate Chelsea Manning with us? Sure. But it does, so here we are.

I'm also worried about what the military may eventually do should it decide that we are, now, a security risk. It's had two very public examples this year of people in highly sensitive positions who were apparently trans without the knowledge of the service. I would think this would somewhat freak out security people - even if this stuff doesn't make any difference on the job - they are mostly supposed to know about it, are they not?

[Amy A]

I would like to say that I'm surprised that so much of the community is trying to aggrandize her, but unfortunately I am not. Our community is desperately delusional and they will sink us all in their effort to promote an extreme ideology.


I don't see many people trying to aggrandize her on this forum, quite the opposite in fact. I've seen calls for the death penalty and a suggestion she should be shot, and even hopes that she'll suffer some form of sexual abuse in prison, but I haven't read a single comment saying that what she did was right. The issue here for me is the ways in which some people here are trying to deny the possibility of her being TG just because they don't like her, and the general lack of understanding of GD as a whole by members who aren't transitioning.

Chelsea Manning doesn't represent me in any way, for a start she's an American with a background in the military, so our lives are likely to be quite different. It's the same with many members on here, all we have is the shared experience of GD, and then for some of transitioning. It's great that we have support/action groups and forums, but I often feel we are too disparate a group to ever truly form a community.

[Kathryn Martin]

Manning revealed on May 21st, 2010 that he was suffering from gender dysphoria in a chat interview (http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2011/07/manning-lamo-logs/) with Adrian Lamo. Lamo was the person who reported Manning to the authorities and on May 27th, 2010 Manning was arrested. Manning broke the law and has been tried and convicted and sentenced. He is a criminal.

According to his criminal conviction he eligible for parole and early release within eight years.

Trying to explain unlawful behavior by claiming to be Chelsea is like saying if I could only have been Chelsea this would not have happened. What a crock of sh*it. Unfortunately that is exactly what happened in the ABC interview with her lawyer and by reading of the statement. And why should I believe Manning? He has already shown that he cannot be trusted. And for what should we pay him respect. what has been said or done by him that has earned the respect of anyone here? He said "I am now a woman and go by the name of Chelsea" which is hardly anything in itself that would garner respect is it? In my view it is more of "I am the victim" no matter what he did.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Manning "played" the ts card and its a losing card...and it hurts every single one of us...Manning makes us look crazy...manning implicates all of us by making this part of the crime that was obviously committed.

[I Am Paula]

Whenever something newsworthy happens, and a transsexual is involved, which part comes to the forefront? The news, or the transsexuality. I won't say Chelsea is playing the TS card, the media is. She is a criminal who happens to be TS.

[LaurenB]

Ever been 25 years old before? Ever joined the service thinking it may solve some of your personal issues? Imagine you had the ability to see classified things and one of them was a video of a a helicopter killing unarmed civilians (and two Reuters journalists)? Imagine you had a conscience and some ideals beyond drinking the American military coolaid. Imagine you were transgender at the same time.

[Marleena]

*delete*......

[Catherine Hopkins]

Ever been 25 years old before? Ever joined the service thinking it may solve some of your personal issues? Imagine you had the ability to see classified things and one of them was a video of a a helicopter killing unarmed civilians (and two Reuters journalists)? Imagine you had a conscience and some ideals beyond drinking the American military coolaid. Imagine you were transgender at the same time.

And imagine you'd also told your supervisor that you were transgender and it had been ignored and also made a grab for a weapon from a rack - both offences that should have lead to discharge. And then imagine the powers that be sweep both offences under the carpet so that you may (must) finish your tour and then leave you with unsupervised and insecure access to such videos (including passwords on post-it notes FFS) despite your obvious instability?

Please everyone, read a little deeper than the useless mainstream media coverage?

[Celeste]

I'm wondering how much of the info exposed was never revealed to the public?Just think,we are only basing our opinions on what the military chooses to reveal to begin with.So my point is that "we" the general public,would need to be privy to "other"classified info in order to understand the longevity of his sentence.

[Badtranny]

I don't see many people trying to aggrandize her on this forum, .

Well, there's a bunch of older gals on this forum so that may be why, but based on my travels around the net, the trans community in general is rallying around this person like they want her to be a spokes-model.

It's embarrassing that the most disagreeable people are embraced by my community for no action other than claiming to be TG. I think we should be setting a little higher bar frankly. I hope that kid who did the Boston bombing doesn't come out as TG, we'd probably hold a fund raising marathon in her honor.

[Loni]

well the prison she is in she will always be a he.
needs to find a way to turn a life + prison term into a parol deal so she can get out get a job and pay for her self.
but i do not think that will happen.

till thin she will be kept confined away from the gen pop " for her" safety.

.

[Rianna Humble]

Let's keep this thread on topic, folks - this isn't the "let's crucify Chelsea" thread from the Media section, this is about how people on this site treat the news that Chelsea had already come out before arrest as TS.

Each of us is entitled to a private opinion of what she has been convicted for and even to privately ignore the fact that she says her gender issues are not an excuse for what she did. That is not the topic of this thread.

I can understand those of us (and I include myself) who are saddened by the members who deliberately mis-gender Chelsea and by those who (in the other thread) actually stated that they wanted her brutalised in gaol.

However, if posts are made to this thread trying to derail the topic, they will be greeted with moderator action. I do not want to close this thread, but will not tolerate it being abused.

[PaulaQ]

I was a bit disturbed when I read how the press described Chelsea's condition as a mental disorder. ... but I think it hurts us all when Chelsea Manning is painted as a mental basket case and that this "Gender Dysphoria" (hate that stamp) is one of the big issues in this persons lack of or misguided judgement of right and wrong.

Why would this surprise you in the slightest? Gender Dysphoria is in the DSM V, so the psychologists own us, plain and simple. If it's in the DSM, it's a psychological condition. The nuanced language of the DSM attempts to make "Gender Dysphoria" not be a mental disorder, but that is way too subtle for well, anyone, and so if it's in the DSM, it's a mental disorder to most people's way of thinking. How can you seriously expect the average person to understand the argument "just because it's in the big psychology book doesn't mean it's a mental disorder". You'll just get blank stares and they'll tell you "yeah, but it's in the big book of mental disorders..."

Our stuff needs to be *out* of the DSM altogether, and fully owned by the medical professionals who mostly do their best to dodge any involvement with us. (With some heroic exceptions.) And this story illustrates why - because NOBODY, even smart people in the media, can distinguish between stuff in the DSM that's not a mental disorder, and stuff that is in the DSM that IS a mental disorder. If we're in there - we must be nuts.

[Kathryn Martin]

..... but I think it hurts us all when Chelsea Manning is painted as a mental basket case and that this "Gender Dysphoria" (hate that stamp) is one of the big issues in this persons lack of or misguided judgement of right and wrong.

This is really the main point, isn't it. GD or transsexualism have nothing to do with lack of or bad judgement. Manning was "pending discharge for "adjustment disorder" in lieu of "gender identity disorder"" , his own words. The leak had already been completed. I am not sure how you can justify criminal behavior by saying I was suffering so much that I committed a crime.

Here in NS recently a decision came down on sentencing where a trans man had grown pot to pay for top surgery. He knew it was wrong what he did and his transsexuality was one (not the determining) factor in his sentencing. Except in this case he had lived as a man for over ten years.

Is it really mis-gendering to address Manning with male pronouns. This occasion is the first time when he demands to be called Chelsea with the appropriate pronoun for that name. But what about the strategic decision to require this after sentencing? It's an attempt to change the parameters of incarceration. This does huge damage to us all. The reason why this is so damaging is, that he was the one who associated gender issues with mental problems. This was picked up by his lawyer who gave the interview to ABC and then picked up by the press. It is just too opportunistic for me given the damage it has done already and will continue to do. Moreover, this association in connection with a major crime will result in TS and TG persons being under more scrutiny of working in sensitive positions. Because you never know what we could do - Bradley Manning said so.


He is clearly entitled to be treated with some compassion if GD is in fact a factor in his life. But respect? for what? what is it that I should respect him?

[PaulaQ]

This is really the main point, isn't it. GD or transsexualism have nothing to do with lack of or bad judgement.

What about when one of us kills herself because of GD? How much worse can someone's judgment get than that?
The news about Chelsea's gender has been out for a long time. It finally got traction in the US media this year, I'd guess, because this seems to be the summer of all things trans in the US news.
It is not without precedent for someone who's incarcerated to receive HRT.
The military appears to be completely in denial about this issue in a way that makes "don't ask / don't tell" seem like a really transparent and open discussion of sexuality...

[LeaP]

But respect? for what? what is it that I should respect him?

The reality of a trans persons identity. That it only came out recently is immaterial. Everything out there thus far suggests it is real and long standing.

We accept and treat people according to their stated identity on FAR less here.

Call it something other than respect, if you like. But it's a fundamental human right to be recognized for who you really are.

[Badtranny]

But it's a fundamental human right to be recognized for who you really are.

Meanwhile out here in the real world. I had to change a lot of documents before people started calling me Melissa. My friends have called me Misty (my nickname) for quite awhile but legal recognition did not come after my "announcement".

People keep saying her name is Chelsea but in fact her name is Bradley and she WANTS to be called Chelsea. People can't just change their name and gender with an announcement. We have methods to do that so histories are kept intact. The media is reacting to this, but do you ever notice that when a celebrity gets in this kind of trouble they always begin calling them by their legal name?

Johnson Smith (known as Mr Squiggles) was indited today etc etc.

Why are we falling over ourselves to give this person something nobody else gets? This is purely Trans political correctness, and we frankly deserve the scorn that greater society heaps on us, as long as we're acting like petulant children.

[arbon]

But not so many that need compassion as she does

We have many positive and successful transitioners
What I notice is one of us makes a mistake or does something to get negative attention how so many will throw them under the bus and deny their gender identity. We had two high profile ts women in Idaho that got lots of negative for what they both still serving their time in men's prison it was the same argument with them how negative a light they put on being ts

[PaulaQ]

Meanwhile out here in the real world. I had to change a lot of documents before people started calling me Melissa. My friends have called me Misty (my nickname) for quite awhile but legal recognition did not come after my "announcement".

Oh fiddlesticks - what the does that prove, Misty? I may very well do my name change *dead last*, well after I have a vagina in place just so the folks I work with can't **** with my transition. (I work remotely, they haven't actually seen me in the flesh in years. Maybe they'll be cool - maybe they'll be uncool - maybe I don't want to find out if it doesn't buy me anything worth the risk, particularly since the state I live in doesn't make this a fun or easy to do process.)


Why are we falling over ourselves to give this person something nobody else gets? This is purely Trans political correctness, and we frankly deserve the scorn that greater society heaps on us, as long as we're acting like petulant children.

I've known a number of trans girls who've served. It was pretty hellish for them. The military needs to have a sensible and humane policy on this stuff because there are a LOT of trans people in the military. This is a really unfortunate case. Doesn't seem like they could reduce her clearance when they found out she was trans, they never looked for it in the first place, and they also couldn't help her. So they just let the situation ride until she exploded. I'm NOT trying to justify her actions - showing embarrassing footage of US combat ****ups is very naughty indeed, and I'm sure we can all agree that when "W" classified dang near everything, he knew what he was doing - because the war in Iraq was managed *so well* and was *really well thought out*, right? Regardless - she shouldn't have done what she did - there is no justification for this, it's against the law. (The law the government uses to cover it's ass...) Clearly what the military is doing is not well thought out, and in this case, it could be argued that it lead to a bad outcome. (As opposed to the Navy SEAL who came out recently - I bet they didn't know about her either, and clearly in that case, stuff worked out OK.)

I'm mostly upset by the arguments I see that:
1. Deny being TS is mostly a medical issue, treated with physical medicine. (You've had a bit of that yourself, right?)
2. View our condition as being a choice.

Am I thrilled we are talking about a convicted traitor here? No, I am not thrilled by that. However, the fact is, people don't need to just view us as "special" heroes or what have you. We are just people. Some of us are heroes, some of us are villains, most of us are just regular folks trying as best we can to play our hand given one of the shittiest cards in the entire deck.

[Sejd]

To me, the fact that she presented as a female before this whole trial, (the photos with her as a woman with blond hair and make up) well that makes her a sister. When I posted this thread I mentioned that I was disapointed that she was painted as a person with a mental disorder (duh! is it a disorder to be TG?) and that her terrible childhood probably resulted in "This condition". that's exactly how the media presented her to the larger public. I sthill don't think that is fair.

[Leona]

This whole discussion is like the free speech discussion about porn. You have to take the bad with the good, and we want societal recognition for TG people, we have to also recognize that for convicted criminals.

As for this whole "he broke the law, that makes him an evildoer" attitude, George Washington also broke the law when he ordered his troops to fire at British soldiers. Rosa Parks broke the law when she sat in the front of the bus and refused to move. There are valid times to break the law, and there is some suggestion that maybe Chelsea Manning actually did the Right Thing, so whatever your view is, it's somewhat disingenuous to jump on the "HE broke the law and should be punished" bandwagon.

However, if you really do view Ms. Manning as Evil Incarnate, consider this:

I think we all fully recognized Jeffrey Daumer's gender identity without any difficulty. Also his sexual orientation (gay).
We all recognize Julian Assange's gender identity as well, do we not?
We also recognize Raymond Washington's gender identity AND ethnicity.

I do strongly believe that if we don't recognize Chelsea Manning's gender identity and the issues that raises for someone headed to prison, then we are shooting ourselves in the leg. If we want to be recognized as PEOPLE, then we must RECOGNIZE OURSELVES as PEOPLE first. WE set the example for how we wish to be treated. It is our responsibility and privilege to set that example.

My entire post can be summed up as "Don't hate the player, hate the game".

[Cheryl T]

Chelsea will have a long road. Since she will be in a military prison the Army's policy is to NOT provide and services related to GID. She will have to wait at least the 7 years till she's eligible for parole before anything can begin in earnest. At that point it's on her own dime, not the public dole.

[Leona]

Did Jeffrey Daumer use being gay as an excuse? No. Nor did any of the others you mentioned?

Chelsea Manning didn't use being TG as an excuse either. It's logical for those of us who have struggled with this our whole lives to understand that, while not an excuse, it certainly informed her emotional state when she did the leaking.

And what I'm reading about what was leaked, I'm forming the opinion that she did the Right Thing by leaking. But this isn't the thread to discuss that leak, and the one that did exist has been closed, and I won't open another one.

Also: I think Jeffrey Daumer may have tried to use being gay as an excuse. Independent of that, the "gay panic" defense is still valid in many jurisdictions, so you may be able to use that as an excuse to murder anyone in the LGBT coalition.

[kimdl93]

Ok, I give. But I refuse to show compassion nor solidarity to this person.

[Leona]

You're not being asked for compassion or solidarity, only acceptance.

[Rianna Humble]

Is it really mis-gendering to address Manning with male pronouns.

You of all people should know that deliberately calling an MtF Transsexual "he" and "him" is mis-gendering. Your opinions of her actions should not alter the fact that she is female.


Meanwhile out here in the real world. I had to change a lot of documents before people started calling me Melissa. My friends have called me Misty (my nickname) for quite awhile but legal recognition did not come after my "announcement".

People keep saying her name is Chelsea but in fact her name is Bradley and she WANTS to be called Chelsea.
Sorry "Misty" from the start when you came on here presenting a female identity you were referred to by your chosen name and by your gender.

Why is it so hard for you to have the same courtesy for others?

[Leona]

Indeed, Rianna, I show a clearly male profile picture wearing a costume and get accepted as a woman here. Why not Chelsea Manning?

[Kathryn Martin]

You of all people should know that deliberately calling an MtF Transsexual "he" and "him" is mis-gendering. Your opinions of her actions should not alter the fact that she is female.

Rianna, but is he? how do we know? or was this just an opportunistic ploy by a man facing a personal reality of a long prison sentence? He knew what he was facing long before he "disclosed" himself. You are assuming what he says is true when nothing he has done instills any form of trust. He is after all not a blank page like most arriving here is he?

[Nicole Erin]

Chelsea knows she may or may not have much life on the outside. 7 minimum, 35 max behind bars.
Maybe, just maybe, she figured "I haven't got anything else to lose, might as well start this path"
We all have something that gets us started.

I do not imagine too many cons are going to fake TS as a way to escape justice. It is just not something that is done. It is not like men who dress as women as a disquise to rob a bank or something.

Or, a horrific crime makes someone a man suddenly? Wow, so if Casey Anthony had not got off scott free, she would then be called "him" also?

Oh well, it is not like some people on this forum to discredit other TS. If Chelsea had not done any crime, would she then have the forum's True TS members permission to be a woman?

[Leona]

Kathryn: Yes, we do know this. 5 days after she came out to his superior, she was turned in for the leaks. There is a lingering question of whether or not he'd have been turned in if she wasn't trans that nobody's asked.

Chelsea Manning was trans before she went into the military, and all the documentation is there to show it. You just have to quit reading current headlines to see it.

[Badtranny]

YSorry "Misty" from the start when you came on here presenting a female identity you were referred to by your chosen name and by your gender.

Sure, on a TG forum. But legally, my bank, my health insurance, my car insurance, the DMV, the IRS, etc all referred to me as my legal name which was not Melissa. If I had gotten a speeding ticket it would have addressed me by my old name. If I would have gotten any media attention they would have called me by my old name because that was in fact my legal name. Everybody here was calling me Misty and most of my friends were calling me Misty but my legal name was NOT Misty or Melissa.

Now TODAY there is no question about my name. I am completely legal all the way to my birth certificate. The media may say I used to be a man, they may even say what my name used to be but they have no choice but to call me Melissa because that is indeed my legal name. ain the case of Pvt Manning, she can request that people call her whatever, but the media needs to be accurate and factual. What if she decides her name is Tiffany next week? Keep in mind that she is known to be dishonest and opportunistic.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

It's a crappy situation.

Its not for me to decide...I her that she is suffering from being transsexual

... I suffered too. I held down a job, took care of my kids, and volunteered in my community..i suffered until I was 47 years old because I knew in my heart that I needed to earn the resources to fund my version of transition
...So I have zero sympathy..

Pvt Manning makes us look like a bunch of fools. Pvt Manning is the embodiment of why people still have bathroom issues with tg people, Pvt Manning is the embodiment of the creepy bad "guy/gal"

In the movies they'd show her shaving her legs in the bathtub....slowly rolling pantyhose up her soft shaved legs, bright red nails, shimmy into a skirt, back clasp of the bra...and then apply sexy lipstick and then the camera pulls away...OMG ITS A DUDE!!!>.. and then they'd show her "in disguise" going into work and stealing gov't secrets ...because that's what tranny's do..


I was asked yesterday by a couple cisgendered friends what I thought....I said "she's a creep"....and we all agreed that the last thing we want to do is either align ourselves to her cause (getting to transition in army jail) or support a system that literally incentivizes people to commit crime so they can take advantage of taxpayer funded transition...

On the most pragmatic level, supporters of pvt manning (from a ts POV) have already lost....its notjjust the media...its common sense....time spent harping on this loser is time better spent helping good hard working people that deserve your help..time spent harping on this loser only makes it worse for all of us..

[LeaP]

I just don't see things the same way. The population sees all of us as creepy. It bothers me that people are imposing more and more negativity on her that doesn't seem to have much of any real basis to back it. The fact that you were able to hold out so long is immaterial. You are not her. Some people commit suicide in their teens. Some never transition. And some blow up in the Army, apparently. That the media would portray her in the fashion you described is also immaterial. They already portray trannys that way.

Chelsea was diagnosed with GID by a physician in 2010. As more and more information is come out in the last few days it has become clearer that she does not blame her actions on being trans. (And per a post from a couple of days ago, that was my initial conclusion.)

Situations like this – whether or not Chelsea gets treatment in prison – will never incentivize anybody. Whistleblowers always assume the risk that judgment will not be in their favor. When it's not, they go to prison, as in this case. She could've been executed. There is no incentive there – none – at all.

There are a lot of politics in this case, too. This administration has prosecuted more people for leaks than all other administrations combined. And they are going for heavier sentences. They are doing so even as they are leaking more information themselves. There is a huge effort by this administration to control the news. As for the sentence, it has been pointed out that in similar cases that sentences have been much lighter. One that was cited was one year and time served. The information that is leaked in such cases is always as material as the act of leaking it. Thus, people leaking details of nuclear weapons design go to prison forever. And those who leak the details of political coverups and other such things get off rather lightly – being punished for the act of the leak but lightly due to the nature of the leak.

She was not convicted of aiding the enemy. The judgment, as a result, should be read as coming down hard, really hard, on a whistleblower. There is no treason. So whether the act was patriotic or naïve – she still doesn't deserve the kind of acrimony she's getting from this community on the basis of gender identity.

[Angela Campbell]

I think that it is the usual business of those out there to have bias against that which they do not understand. In many cases they hide this bias and put on a front of acceptance in a politically correct kind of way while inside they think we are disgusting and mentally ill. When this kind of revelation comes out on a person who is in the spotlight for something negative sometimes the polite mask comes off and you see what they really think of this condition. Maybe I am just overly sensitive to this bias. Maybe it is the anger of the crime has allowed some to over emotionalize this.

What I have seen in the last few days here is shocking to me. Yes this person is not a good person and is being punished for the actions taken, but to further attack someone (by members of this site no less) because they claim to be trans is an insult and an attack on all who are trans. To insult what was done is expected, to further add insults because she has come out shouldn't be. The two are separate issues and if this private had not been in the news for a crime against the country but only because she announced she wanted to transition, would these same kind of comments have been made? ("he" Him" "cosmetic treatments" "not medically necessary") Or would these comments only have been thought and not publicly made?
If this private had never let on of any gender issues would the reactions be the same or as severe? (death, torture) It almost seems like the crime is an excuse to attack the gender issues.

Is this the way it works? If you are popular and liked then you are referred to as the gender and name you identify as, but if not popular and not liked then that privilege is no longer reasonable? If you do something wrong...like break the law...you give up the gender identity you want to be? Or do we need to prove we qualify to be able to change our outward gender identification?

[Momarie]

Bradley Manning attacked a woman – a superior officer, at that, and with his closed fist.
This little factoid (although I’m sure it was more than that to his victim), is never, never mentioned....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/wikileaks/8964543/Bradley-Manning-attacked-female-soldier-and-sent-picture-of-himself-as-a-woman.html

[Angela Campbell]

And so for that reason she is a "he"?

[Badtranny]

And so for that reason she is a "he"?

No Ellen. We are skeptical of this person because they are a proven liar. She may very well be TG but as you mentioned it's a completely separate issue isn't it. The fact that she came out as transsexual is just icing on a poop sandwich as far as I'm concerned. This person has undeniable mental problems and while I have no doubt that she has discussed this issue in the past she has also been openly gay so what if she is actually just a drag queen? I'm not saying she is, but there are plenty of gay men who are indistinguishable from TS women until they take everything off and are men again. Maybe she's been back and forth on this issue and she is in the "I'm a woman phase" now because of the stress of the trial. Maybe she is actually a TS woman who is finally accepting herself.

Like Kaitlyn said, people ask us at work what we think about this and I don't think anyone who hasn't transitioned at work in front of everyone can understand how embarrassing this is. I don't talk about this issue in CIS circles because I don't want the association, but people ask me if I think she's really transsexual. CIS people ask ME if she is really transsexual? Why are they asking that? Because the feeling among people outside of the community is that this person is a nut and they might be making it up. Why do they think that? ...and those are the people who are understanding. The people who hates us think she really IS transsexual because she really IS a nut.

This is not a person I'm going to invite under my rainbow flag anytime soon. I need to see how this shakes out first.

[Angela Campbell]

Melissa I agree with what you say. I have no respect for someone like this but my concern is the comments here that are aimed at not Pvt Manning but all of us.

Yes this may be a nutcase...well no doubt about that, and a completely deplorable set of behaviors which I would not want to be associated with. But when someone declares themselves to to be trans and comments are made as I have seen it bothers me. I have said I do not know this person and really do not know, but look at some of the comments.

A proven liar.....well for 50 years I lied a lot too.....so did you I imagine. (no disrespect to anyone intended)

I think I have said enough now.

[Kathryn Martin]

....she still doesn't deserve the kind of acrimony she's getting from this community on the basis of gender identity.

I just don't understand on what basis everyone assumes he is what he says. And the problem is that he broke the law, knowingly, fully aware of the consequences facing him, then announced himself. Am I the only one who thinks some does not smell right?

[Nigella]

OK this has been done to a death, It is quite an emotive subject and I feel that everyone has had the opportunity to put their views across. There are a number of sub topics that have arisen and I would be happy to see new threads regarding them, but as for the subject of Chelsea Manning it is now done here.