Morals

[Emogene]

So in the "Introductions" section a new sister joined but indicated that she was fighting CD because of her morals and was promptly supported by a number of others in the forum.

Being a bit confused, I looked for a definition of morals.

"1. of, pertaining to, or concerned with the principles or rules of right conduct or the distinction between right and wrong; ethical: moral attitudes.

2. expressing or conveying truths or counsel as to right conduct, as a speaker or a literary work.

3. founded on the fundamental principles of right conduct rather than on legalities, enactment, or custom: moral obligations.

4. capable of conforming to the rules of right conduct: a moral being.

5. conforming to the rules of right conduct (opposed to immoral ): a moral man."

The core seems to be "right conduct" but offer's nothing to suggest who or what has the right to impose "right conduct" universally on all people, of all faiths or lack thereof, world wide.

May I be so bold as to suggest that "right conduct" is nothing more nor less than not offering injury to others with the full expectation that they in turn will not offer injury to me.

So if I choose to wear clothing, outside of the societal norm, I have not injured another. And in my case, have substantially improved the view over my prior presentation.

Others may have a personal perception of me wearing a dress and get themselves worked into a lather but that is their choice and their self inflicted injury.

Please would you share your thoughts with me, I fail to see how my wearing a dress hurts anyone else.

[GaleWarning]

I wonder if, by wearing a dress, you are inadvertently injuring another human being ... without being consciously aware of it.

Does Mylie Cyrus feel the same way you do about her on-stage antics the other night?

Just wondering ....

[Victoria Davison]

"1. of, pertaining to, or concerned with the principles or rules of right conduct or the distinction between right and wrong; ethical: moral attitudes.


When what is "right" and what is "wrong" is decided upon by someone you put in authority above your own feelings and thoughts, that is when such struggles arise. I feel your moral compass should be centered solely within yourself, not referenced from other sources.

However, there is a argument that if I were to ignore my personal hygiene, never leave my house, not eat well, not take care of myself, and so on until I waste away, no other person has been injured by my acts, except for the most important person: myself. So I would extend the moral imperative of "doing right" upon oneself as well. When you look at it that way, doing what you feel like you want to do is not just an option, it is your moral obligation to yourself. This doesn't mean anyone should be able to do whatever they want, it is just an extension of the morality framework into oneself.

[docrobbysherry]

I wonder if, by wearing a dress, you are inadvertently injuring another human being ... without being consciously aware of it.

Does Mylie Cyrus feel the same way you do about her on-stage antics the other night?

Just wondering ....

Maybe we should all be required to wear our "morals" on our chest? Then, when we see folks with, "All guys dressed as women should burn in hell", written on theirs we can turn on the afterburners and gettouttathere?

[Ressie]

Wasn't the new member talking about a conflict of religion and crossdressing? One can have morals without believing in God, but religious doctrines have scriptures that are taken literally by some denominations, not so much with others. Or am I thinking of the wrong post?

[EllenJo]

Emogene, I think Dee and I agree that the new sister was referring to her struggle with a religious definition of morals. I personally feel that I am a moral human being no matter what I wear. I am the same person morally in a dress or in a business suit. I hurt no one, I care deeply about my fellow human beings, and I try to do the right thing. Not just legally and ethically but also morally. I am no saint and have stepped over many lines in my life and learned many things the hard way. My wife will attest to the fact that when I am dressed I am a much more calm caring person. My bad temper only seems to manifest when in male mode.

I do not feel that crossdressing has anything to do with morallity unless it is used to hide wrong doing. Then like anything else, it has been corrupted by human purpose not by it's existence.

When I meet my maker I intend to thank her for making me exactly who I am.

[Emogene]

Thanks for your comments!

Ellen Jo, right on babe.

Gale, what is the greater wrong doing, judging others because the way they dress or the person who dresses in a particular fashion. Which is the greater wrong, dressing in a particular fashion or spousal domination of a partner because of the way they choose to dress. Is a pair of cotton (or nylon :0) underwear inherently evil because it does not have a fly in the front and having male genitalia I choose to wear them?

Yes, Dee. Same person! But as we were made by a greater power and we have a feature, physical or psychological, that was created in us by that greater power how can we be condemned by others; they are implying that the greater power was somehow in error. Personally, I am not so puffed up in myself as to say the greater power is wrong. Perhaps it is societies error in defining "right conduct" but certainly not the entity that created us. Besides which, how can you take a book literally that has been translated by humans from multiple editions written in archaic languages in some cases many years after the events took place. The best you can hope for is "in so far as it is translated correctly". I have a tough time remembering what I had for breakfast some days.

[Tracii G]

I don't equate religious doctrine to morality at all.Two very different things.
How many so called men of God have transgressed and done horribly immoral things?They knew it was wrong when they did it.
To have trouble with CDing because of somebody's interpretation of a sacred book is kind of nuts when you think about it.

[Amanda M]

Morals and religion - the two are totally separate, as brief look at history will tell you. My morals are MY morals, arrived at by me, whether I am wearing a dress or not. As for people who want to criticize them, I will listen and then accept or reject as I see fit.

[Ressie]

I surmised that our new CD friend was brought up in one of the strict denominations that stress "burning in hell" rather than "God loves you and forgives you". And I agree that morality and religion are two separate things, but they do intersect. I've seen people excommunicated from church because of immoral behavior and I think it's sad. Hopefully our newbie will find a way to deal with this struggle.

Guilt and shame have a purpose but... "You're the only one to see the changes you take yourself through", Stevie Wonder

[suchacutie]

Speaking to the theme of the thread, all if our actions can have unintended consequences, but we cannot control the actions of others. It's not a joke when I say that I would not introduce Tina to my parents for fear that their hearts couldn't take the strain that action would produce. Something as variable as norms of dress can hardly be a part of a morals discussion unless the mode of dress is locally inappropriate for other reasons (I.e. being naked where local laws prohibit such activity).

Furthermore, we are generally speaking about more than just mode of dress, but truly gender presentation. Others opine that we are misrepresenting our gender when we say that we are presenting a true picture of our gender. This is the rub. When everyone understands that not everyone's gender is as simple as their biology the morals discussion can start from a more similar point.

[linda allen]

Morals and religion - the two are totally separate,........... .

Yes they are one doesn't have to believe in a religion to have good morals. "Morals" are viewed and defined differently by different people or groups. What may be viewed as immoral by one person may not be by another.

[Lynn Marie]

I live in a city. Everything I do here affects other people. My goal as a responsible citizen is to minimize my negative impact on the planet and maximize my positive contributions. My grandmother taught me that when I was 9 years old, long long before I ever entered a church!

[miss_jessie]

Perhaps morals was the wrong word choice? It sounds like perhaps the word needed should be describing our 'inner building blocks' I'm not talking morals or religion here, just the blocks that make up the way we think how society and human's work etc. I can't think of the word and moral's really is the closest word, but at the same time it is not suitable for what I am describing above. Is it possible that this is what was meant?

[Karren H]

I have extremely high morals.... for an agnostic transvestite....

[Georgia_Maine]

So what is the difference between morals and ethics? To me morals are rules given by a society, religion or ?? There needn't be any logic to them, although there might have been at one time. One person's or society's morals don't need to be the same as another's. OTOH ethics are based on logic and are universal to all peoples and societies - unless something terrible has gone wrong. So for me someone can be ethical, but socially or religiously immoral. Me? I'll take ethics over morals any day.

[Deedee Skyblue]

"The ethical man knows he shouldn’t cheat on his wife, whereas the moral man actually wouldn’t.”

Deedee

[Frédérique]

...in the "Introductions" section a new sister joined but indicated that she was fighting CD because of her morals and was promptly supported by a number of others in the forum. The core seems to be "right conduct" but offer's nothing to suggest who or what has the right to impose "right conduct" universally on all people, of all faiths or lack thereof, world wide. May I be so bold as to suggest that "right conduct" is nothing more nor less than not offering injury to others with the full expectation that they in turn will not offer injury to me.

Well, I love anyone who looks up definitions! :clap:

Let’s be selfish for a moment. Wouldn’t you say that not giving in to temptation, or avoiding urges that may be quite innocent, natural, and inevitable, represents doing injury to oneself, thereby doing something that is NOT moral, by your accepted definition? Also, is it moral for others to curb one’s enthusiasm, put the dampers on an interesting life, and snuff out pleasure whenever it rears its beautiful head? I think the moral people in this world can be rather immoral at times, perhaps denying others those same things they deny themselves, if only to make themselves feel better (or more powerful), and thus perpetuate a human crime of epic proportions...

Crossdressing is perfectly moral, unless it is equally moral (in the minds of others) to ignore the senses we are all blessed with. Life is short, they say, and everyone wants you to make the most of it, unless you stray from the guided line from birth to death that has been conveniently provided (in your best interests, no less). I say it is moral and POSITIVELY HEROIC to blaze one’s own trail, and make the sorry preachers of morality blush, no doubt wishing they were in your shoes. It is moral to try things, and it is moral to question things, including morality itself. Not to do so is akin to personal tragedy...
:straightface:

[Emogene]

Thank you everyone, much food for thought!

[Katie1989]

Not to be vain but I believe I'm the girl you are referencing. As far as morals go, here is my 2 cents
Morals are basically a personal compass, something developed over life and a "cousin" to a conscious or something like that. Having been raised religious and very familiar with the dicta on the subject, I had believed that crossdressing was against god, against mankind, against myself as man, and against nature.
However, morals being what they are, I have evolved. I have come to find my mors were misplaced, and most likely in error. I am still religious, a man, and a part of nature, but I also know that crossdressing is in me as much as breathing, eating, and sleeping. Something this ingrained cannot be "immoral" when practice with love and care.
Morals take time to develop. I'm glad mine have.

[Beverley Sims]

If you are not doing anything that involves any one else it is your own thoughts and up bringing that plays on your mind.

[Deedee Skyblue]

Morality is how you act when the only person affected by your actions is you.

Deedee

[Leona]

I wonder if, by wearing a dress, you are inadvertently injuring another human being ... without being consciously aware of it.


I think you can be the catalyst that triggers emotional pain in another human being. Consider a closeted CD/TS that is hurt seeing you so freely express yourself, or the insecure macho man who is hurt because he knows he lacks the courage to do what you're doing for fear someone will think he's gay or girly. These examples (and numerous others we could all easily pose) definitely show someone else hurting who would not be hurting if you weren't out en femme.

Now then, the question arises as to who's responsible for the pain.... :)

[VAWyman]

Well said!

[cdmorganashley]

this topic has made my head spin, and i think the main reason is that i feel morals are so dependent on frame of reference... i mean most people would agree that killing someone else is immoral, but what if you kill someone to save someone else's life? what if you kill someone who was attacking you, but they were only attacking you because someone was going to kill their family if they didn't? i mean is crossdressing immoral? is eating bacon immoral? bacon is largely harmful to your body so it's kind of a form of self harm... crossdressing is often done for the benefit of the individual doing it, so is doing something that only benefits yourself immoral? is it wrong to do things for your own happiness/needs? maybe it is wrong to be anything but the most selfless person you can... ultimately i think most people do the best they can within reason, but honestly i think to some extent we choose a moral code that paints us to be good in our own minds without being terribly challenging... e.g. do you donate to charity? could you donate more? why don't we? does that make us morally good or bad? i think most people choose to view themselves as basically good, and i think i would agree with them, but are we right? i sure don't know...

[Alice Torn]

Karren, You have high morals, also, as a hockey player! I believe most al morals, go all the way back to ten laws, long ago. Everyone has modified them, to suit cuture and personal behaviors.

[KateSpade83]

I believe that crossdressing is an immoral thing I falter in and that it greatly hurts my social life. But God doesn't help me enough in my career or money situation so I can attract a pretty enough wife. The pretty asian women I want are too demanding they're hot and know they can get a quality man which I'm not.

[Rachael Leigh]

I don't think men in womens clothes per se is morally wrong but it can be difficult to accept as a societal norm. Trying to look like a women when one is not can be considered digising or deceptive. I guess for me that's why I tend toward more looking less fem in clothes that are considerd female styles.

[Marcelle]

Ah morality . . . good question. Is what we do immoral? Well that will depend on the person who is doing the judging. I went out the other day and was at WalMart and the girl at the only cash open (it was early morn) refused to serve me because she was a good Christian and what I was doing was immoral and an abomination in the eyes of God. I asked her where it says that in the bible (chapter and verse) she couldn't provide only that she knows it is wrong. Can't fault her as that is her belief . . . However as a paying customer her manager took a different spin and fired her on the spot morals and all.

For me I cannot change who I am and as I grow and explore, I don't think I would want to. We are only immoral to those who think we are. Some may be rude others may choose to think bad thoughts in their mind.

Hugs

Isha

[NathalieX66]

Yeah, I don't pay much attention to the whole Deuteronomy 22:5 thing from the Old Testament of the Bible. I think people make this stuff up. It's that ridiculous. I've already eaten lots of clams and crabs, and worn clothes of mixed fabrics, so I'm already going to be judged for that, lol!

We make this stuff up.

[Rachael Leigh]

Actually as far a the Old Testament law is concerned is not one of us can keep the law, we are imperfect humans, that is why God sent His son for our sins. So Natallia you are right in we do break those laws everyday. To this activity it is difficult to understand from the Bibles perspective and I struggle with it everyday as to exactly what is right or wrong about it. As most here say we don't hurt anyone while doing it but I dare say many marriages have been upset by it just as those who drink to much or do drugs. So it's difficult for me to just put it aside as complelty harmless.

[cdmorganashley]

Isha, people are so inconsistent its maddening... if that clerk thought you were straying so far from the path isn't the bible thing to do to try and save you? i don't remember did Jesus scoff at "sinners" (not saying i think you are one for cding) and tell them to get lost? i thought he had a different approach... also, its been a while since i went to church, but the crap about "what you do to the least of my people that you do until me" notion is something that kinda sticks with me--if Jesus showed up at walmart in a flowing robe, long hair, and gladiator sandals would she refuse to serve this probably dirty, crossdressing weirdo? i doubt that would go over to well at the pearly gates when they were doing her review to see if she makes it into partytown... ugh i guess i am ranting... anyway i am really proud of all you ladies who are getting out in the world and not letting people's illogical and close-minded reactions to your appearance stop you from going where you want as you want... honestly its this sort of stuff that keeps me closeted, but when i read about your adventures it really motivates me (if only inch by inch) closer to the door =)

[Secret Drawer]

Taking the heart of the majority of these posts, I had actually posted something similar on another site at one time; More or less that no matter what your background or religion, that crossdressing was ultimately harmless and you shouldn't feel guilt over it. I was promptly lambasted! I was told in no uncertain terms how crossdressing is an abomination against god and I just could not possibly understand. It got turned around so quickly that I somehow became the bad guy!? I just didn't want anyone to consider suicide as an alternative to getting these feelings out of their heads! (This was my actual reason for posting, after reading some scary thoughts on another thread!) So...
Like most of you are saying here, it is wise to consider whether we are deliberately harming others by our actions first. After 35 plus years of crossdressing, I have yet to think of how I might be deliberately harming anyone? Then we need to do what is right for us, so we do ourselves no deliberate harm. (consider eating bacon, we can always run some stairs or eat a bunch of carrots later!) Thats really all there is to the moral dilemma.
Yet it does deliberate harm to others when someone tries or demands to impose their morality onto them! I have not written to that other forum site since that incident because I felt betrayed, and that my morals were being so harshly judged as wrong!

[Emogene]

I received a couple private messages from sisters in response to every ones comments; I had thought this thread had died out in the first day or two of September so was most gratified to read the additional thoughts. Much additional information for me to consider.

I was reminded of paper I read some time ago, sorry, can't remember the author.

It went something to the effect that society (or a group such as a church congregation) has a set of rules that everyone says they ascribe too and there is a second unacknowledged set of rules that everyone actually lives. As an example, I don't drink alcohol because I am a member of "X", but on Saturday night, I go out and party but that is ok because on Sunday, I pray for forgiveness.

I guess the key is "judge not less ye be judged", what is the greater sin me wearing a skirt or some self-righteous person judging me (and my taste or lack thereof). Morality seems to be judged based on sin.

Then there is the realization that there are so many things that are considered wrong (sin) but have you ever noticed that no religious work that I've every seen includes a weighted list of sin. Is drinking on Saturday night a greater, equal or lesser sin than me wearing a skirt? Wearing a skirt on Sunday?

Sorry, about stirring the pot. This is very confusing and, of course, interesting topic.

[tina16]

People quote the Old Testament when they say CDing is a sin. Well there's a bunch of stuff the old testament says to do or not do that people follow anymore and think it's ok (keeping the sabath and not eating certain meats to name a couple). Now I will say that there are circumstances that most CDs are put in that causes them to lie and do other thinks considered sinful (I'm trying to do better in this department).

[Rachael Leigh]

Emogene what I know and understand about what the Bible teaches is yes there are many sins and we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, all things that God teaches us is sin is sin and my understanding is there is just one unforgivable sin and that is rejection of Christ as the only way to heaven. So how does this work for me as a Bible believing Christian and dealing with my CDing, it's been difficult and I may yet still be wrong in doing it. I've studied the verse in Det. And it is very confusing but I have come to the conclusion it speaks mostly about the leadership of the man within the society. Gods intensional is we as men should not hide ourselves or decieve those into who we are. We are to lead spritully as well. So how I see this is if we are doing this as say like a hobby or just to be a way to relax I feel it's fine but I do see how it tends to go beyond that for many and I'm not sure how to address their situations. All of us must decide on where our priorities are withing our relationships and especially our relationship with God . This is my 2 cents worth

[Eryn]

Thread went religious, so I have to close it.