Transition as far as your comfortable?

[dreamer_2.0]

Considering I'm searching for transition options before deciding which path to take, I've heard a few times that you can transition as far as your comfortable (or SO is comfortable). This seems self-explanatory but I don't think I fully understand what life this would lead to.

Does it mean:

- full transition, assuming comfort level is fine
- partial transition, HRT but no SRS
- semi-partial transition, HRT but continue presenting as male (or androgynous)
- all of the above depending on the individual

Are there other possibilities I'm not considering?

[Angela Campbell]

I would think (and someone correct me if I am wrong) transition is changing your life and body to live in the gender you are changing to. If MtF it is beginning life as a female full time and not going back to a male life. Going part way is not transition. In my case it will be changing my legal name, legal gender, SRS and living as a female the rest of my life. Not something done overnight but it is in the process.

- semi-partial transition, HRT but continue presenting as male (or androgynous) is not transition at all. To go as far as you or your SO is "comfortable" is not transition. Maybe that would be something more like crossdressing.

[I Am Paula]

Many therapists will not recommend, nor Doctors prescribe, HRT to someone with no plans to transtion.
Your SO will probably object to the first effect of hormones- Loss of erection, desire, fertility.
One of the secondary effects- growing breasts, may make presenting male challenging.
Other than that...it's personal choice.

[LeaP]

I wouldn't considered anyone transitioned in any sense or degree unless they were full-time. For me, transition is full-time, hormones, and SRS. Without SRS, I would consider myself partially-transitioned. That is my desire and need. It would be unfortunate if I could not pursue SRS for reasons beyond my control, but I would still consider it a partial transition.

Being in transition by doing something like starting hormones is not transitioned - not even "semi-partial." If hormones alone are the goal because that gets you to where you need to be, terrific ... but it's not transition.

[groove67]

Hello ladies i am reading this and having just had srs 10 days ago and going home tuesday i can say i lived as a woman three and half tears on hrt and fely that i was a transgender woman and now in my mind that you need to go all the way if you desire to be a woman witch i now consider myself yes a transexual woman but a woman. I have total relief that i am whole and think most transexual women would agree. I understand that at times health problems prevent the surgery and i am so sorry for these ladies whom really want to be total female. All i can say is we maybe different, different body but we are women and human beings not some circus person, and if you stay on the border want to dress like a woman, think you feel like a woman you have no idea the difference. I am know a woman ok transexual woman but a woman whom i always knew i was. Just my thoughts as i am where i want to be and very happy to join the great women of this world. Marianne

[Angela Campbell]

I just have to add, that there is not much that is "comfortable" about transition.

[KellyJameson]

Think of yourself as living with two people in one body.

If one of those people is a woman as your "identity" than you will not have a choice to the degree this identity is formed because you will always live with the relentless compulsion to make yourself on the outside what you know yourself to be on the inside and you would have been living with this compulsion (desire) in one degree or the other since very early in your life.

It is not possible to escape the self so it only becomes a question of how far you can go in turning your back on yourself.

HRT may calm your mind and in this calmness bring clarity but in this clarity you will have a more difficult time ignoring your identity so HRT will propel you down the road of transitioning not stop you from transitioning.

If your subconscious mind knows itself to be female because the mind experiences itself as female than the choice is made for you.

There really is no choice but discovering where you fall on the spectrum of identity and the more extreme you swing toward female the more you will be compelled to transition .

Many men and women live without a sense of their own gender because they are not conflicted between their body and identity to a degree that causes distress

It is your distress that will decide your ultimate behavior and you do not have a choice in this matter.

It can be very dangerous not to listen to this distress but at the same time you must be clear that your distress is related to gender identity and not anything else.

There is absolutely no room for self deception concerning transitioning.

Many transition for reasons other than identity and it will create hardship for them often leading to self destructive behavior and or suicide because they are still in pain and do not understand why.

They often become very militant after transitioning because they need the fanaticism to quiet their own internal doubts after the fact.

You must discover inside yourself the unequivocal conviction and understanding that you are a female but paradoxically the only way to do this is to live as one.

[Sara Jessica]

- semi-partial transition, HRT but continue presenting as male (or androgynous) is not transition at all. To go as far as you or your SO is "comfortable" is not transition. Maybe that would be something more like crossdressing.

Yes, because we all know very well that all who are truly TS go through full transition. Anything less and you're just a fence sitter.


To the OP, there is a similar quote floating around out there which I will not try to recite verbatim but it essentially states what you are saying, go as far as you need to go to alleviate your own GID. For some it is full transition. For others it might be something less. Do what is right for YOU, not what others suggest is the correct path.

[kimdl93]

Like Sara, I'll take a slightly less doctrinaire position here. To me transition must be a process and matter of degree. It can't be defined by a litmus test. If one lives full time, it's transition, but something less, 60, 70, or 90 percent doesn't count? That's irrational. It seems to me that one is transitioning when one shifts the balance of her life from presenting as male towards presenting as female.

I can't compete in any of these categories and its not important t me to prove myself by another persons standards. If it was I'd be sitting here in jockey shorts willing a beer and watching Duck Dynasty.

[dreamer_2.0]

Thanks for the responses everyone. For me personally, it would have to be full transition (SRS is imperative) but I was curious what transitioning as far as you're comfortable would entail.

almostalady - I believe you're right in that transitioning probably doesn't have much that's "comfortable" at all.


To the OP, there is a similar quote floating around out there which I will not try to recite verbatim but it essentially states what you are saying, go as far as you need to go to alleviate your own GID. For some it is full transition. For others it might be something less. Do what is right for YOU, not what others suggest is the correct path.

Bingo. We may be thinking of the same quote.

[Angela Campbell]

Yes, because we all know very well that all who are truly TS go through full transition. Anything less and you're just a fence sitter.


To the OP, there is a similar quote floating around out there which I will not try to recite verbatim but it essentially states what you are saying, go as far as you need to go to alleviate your own GID. For some it is full transition. For others it might be something less. Do what is right for YOU, not what others suggest is the correct path.

Actually some TS people do not transition. However the things I pointed out are not transition.

No one is suggesting what is the right path for anyone, and everyone should do what is right for them, But if it is not transition it is not transition. Growing out your hair, or taking hormones is not transition. Living it full time is. Living it part time is not.

[Badtranny]

I would just settle for changing your name and living full time as your intended gender.

All the other stuff can be argued I suppose, but how are you making a gender transition if you keep your male name and legal status?

[LeaP]

Yes, because we all know very well that all who are truly TS go through full transition. Anything less and you're just a fence sitter.



SJ, you have a real hair across your ... attitude on that topic. No-one said anything about "true TS". I certainly didn't. The responses have been regarding what constitutes transition, not transsexuality.

[Aprilrain]

Do what you gotta do but for me it was full transition or bust.

[sandra-leigh]

I would think (and someone correct me if I am wrong) transition is changing your life and body to live in the gender you are changing to. If MtF it is beginning life as a female full time and not going back to a male life. Going part way is not transition.

You would benefit from some time spent with a good dictionary.

"transition" is a word derived from the verb "transit" in the sense of "to move across", in turn derived from Latin "to cross", noun form "transitio", 'a going across'. Think astronomy.

transition (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/transition), n, "1. Passage from one form, state, style, or place to another.", "2. the period of time during which something changes from one state or stage to another", "2. a period during which such change takes place. "

Notice that the word does not fix any endpoints: it deals with the changing, not the result. "I have gone through transition" just means you changed, somehow -- including possibly apparently back where one started, having changed by no longer desiring to change! (If you go for a walk in the snow because you are confused about something and need to work it out, then if you go back home now unconfused, then something has changed in the meantime.)

Transition can include going through many different elements, such as changing name, changing self-identity, changing perception of self-identity, changing perception of the world, informing various portions of the world about the change, reversible cosmetic alterations (makeup, grow hair, dye it, shave it), minor permanent changes (remove hair, ears pierced), significant cosmetic changes (e.g., implants), biomedical changes (HRT), major physical changes (SRS), changes in the way one dresses, changes in the way one talks, official records changes -- and probably others. While you are engaged in any of the above or working towards them, then you are in transition; when you stop, then you have transitioned... no matter where you ended up.

Is just having HRT "transition", even if one retains one's name and doesn't tell anyone? Yes, if it is done for gender reasons, even if you never tell anyone outside the doctors involved; no if it is for unrelated medical reasons (high blood pressure, enlarged prostate.)

[Catherine Hopkins]

I'd say the question is back to front.

For me the question seems to start from the premise that to be driven to transition, one must be UNcomfortable at the start. Therefore, the question becomes transition UNTIL you're comfortable.

I have no idea where I'm going. I'm part time but body altering (electrolysis, hormones) and, increasingly less passable as a male. I always said I'd stop as soon as I AM comfortable and not go a step further. Transition is a very hard road and I still don't know how far I need to go. Of course, I may not stop until I'm fully transitioned. Only time will tell.

[Barbara Ella]

I know there will be many opinions. I feel that transition is a journey. There is an ultimate end point to have a completed transition, but a transition is not an endpoint. A transition is the facilitation that eases one from one place to another. A transition for a TS involves many steps for the TS to achieve what they need, and what is needed is not the same for all, and the process is not instantaneous, it takes time, which may be many years. I must agree that one must know the endpoint of the transition and realize that that is the goal.

I also believe that if a person who is transitioning becomes locked at some point in their journey, that is not a problem, and they are still in the process of transitioning. I would not recommend planning on doing this and expecting to stop at some point as a permanent goal. I don't believe that planning that way yields happiness. i do believe that life can intrude into the transition process no matter how well planned, and that does not negate the process. you are still in transition, but you have not transitioned no matter how long you remain at that spot in your journey. Thing is, life can change, and you may feel that you can advance. If you planned for that spot, you may be unhappy with your feelings. If you know what a completed transition is, you will not be unhappy with knowing it is just your future, and things are now right for you to move once again.

If I plateau in my transition, I will not be sad, because I know my true endpoint that I want, even if I never get there.

Barbara

[melissaK]

I haven't read all the posts, but I know I'm going to disagree with most and hold a different opinion.

It's not all the way M to F or bust for everyone. Some of us can't imagine being June Cleaver or whatever full time female exists as your secret role model. For some of us happiness is to TRANSITION to a middle ground - as gender fluid, gender outlaw, gender queer. Go read anything by Kate Bornstein who did the whole MTF SRS thing and wasn't really happy about her destination. So she moved off to the middle. Her book Gender Outlaw explains a lot. She remains a controversial figure in our world.

The middle is HARD. It seems way less socially acceptable than passing M or passing F, but every not fully passing TS knows something of the middle. But they are trying to pass all the way, and not passing feels like failure to them. It doesn't to me.

I have done HT for years. I have breasts. I have long hair. I have thin body hair. I have a receded hairline from age. I do not pass F. I don't try to pass F. My wardrobe is 1/2 his and 1/2 hers, but no dresses. Creepy huh.

I am out to family and friends and I got tagged by them with a gender fluid initial - M, which I adore, but I also go by Lissa. They all don't seem to mind much.

I have not transitioned at work and I keep a male identity. In that sense my transition is way incomplete and it does bother me. But name change on a birth certificate doesn't mean anything to me. It's my nature to not care about these things, and it's different for me than it is for others.

There's nothing wrong with wanting the whole MTF name change SRS route. But it's not what I wanted.
But I'll tell you this, I desperately and absolutely HAD to stop being Male all the time. I HAD to start HT and HAD to have breasts. Being all guy has never been right and it about killed me.
I felt the urge to change as badly as anyone here.

We can debate concepts of true TSs, theories that I'm just chickening out midway, that I've compromised to please my spouse (awesome woman BTW, who truly gets what it is to be TS, and is a friend to some of the forum members), or whatever. But in my heart I have never felt so happy. I have more to do to refine "me" in the middle, and I have indeed made some compromises for my wife, ( sex on HT takes some care in setting H levels to keep a meaningful degree of male function. But I think I'm mostly where I want to be.

I can also warn and say thus - I have known for 37 years my sexual orientation is lesbian. I am a woman and I want to get laid by a woman. That I can be content without the SRS is in large part because my wife gets it and in bed I'm treated as Lissa. It makes a huge difference to have that validation and not be expected to be all guy in bed. And because my orientation is lesbian I do not long to be in the arms of a man. A good # of MTF TS want that. Wanting that probably isn't going to result in your wife staying around even if you think the middle is for you. Some middle folk have open relationships to solve these sexual yearnings, and I won't judge. You can also be in the middle and find male sex partners.

Water seeks its level. When I came out of my closet in January my outlined written down transition plan was to go all the way. It became clear to me very early that once I gave myself freedom to go find my level, it wasn't going to be where I first thought it would be.

So if you give yourself permission to find and be yourself, do not think it will be entirely predictable or controllable. The journey is not going to be controlled by logic, it's going to be controlled by your heart. And your logic may tell you you ought to stop here, but your heart may not let you. I started HT years ago, and my logic wanted it to be enough, but it wasn't. My heart insisted I go further. Someone up thread said they knew once they started it would be ALL the way - that sounded to me like a testimonial to how they too were led by their heart's desires.

Have fun discovering yourself Sweetie. It IS worth it!!

[bas1985]

Are there other possibilities I'm not considering?

On my Italian support forum for TS it is commonly said that the difference between "transition" and "not transition" is
how you put YOUR OWN face on the table.

How you risk your past life: family, work, SO, etc...

The person who transition puts his OLD male name on the table, publicy. He does not hide and becomes a "she".
If you don't put your name on the table, you are more or less a CD, maybe an advanced one, but only a CD.

It is true, however, that most TS pass a (rather long) time as CD, maybe because they have fear of the consequences.

This is normal. I am in this boat too. But... but until your male past identity is still "alive" then there is no transition.

Transition is when your male self is dead and there is no coming back. One can also transition without HRT, for example.

[Persephone]

To the OP, there is a similar quote floating around out there which I will not try to recite verbatim but it essentially states what you are saying, go as far as you need to go to alleviate your own GID. For some it is full transition. For others it might be something less. Do what is right for YOU, not what others suggest is the correct path.

Amen! Beautifully stated!

The only person you need to satisfy is yourself. The only other opinions you really need to consider are those whom you know and love, not some pontificating doctrinaires.

Hugs,
Persephone.

[dreamer_2.0]

The only person you need to satisfy is yourself.

Variations of this have been stated around the forum. As an aside to this topic, has anyone faced the accusation of being selfish?

[melissaK]

Selfishness comes up all the time. I think every last one of us has started a thread asking about it or exploring why it is or isn't. All the books talk about it.

Transition is you looking to be your"self". So, transition IS "self"ish.

When the need to transition is essential, it's selfish of anyone else to ask you not to.

[Sara Jessica]

SJ, you have a real hair across your ... attitude on that topic. No-one said anything about "true TS". I certainly didn't. The responses have been regarding what constitutes transition, not transsexuality.

Yep, I do.

I've been smacked down enough on this subject. Don't "transsexuals" "transition"??? You don't have to say TS, it's kind of a given, don't you think? Yet the quote I originally replied to suggested in no uncertain terms that those who might only do A, B and/or C without fully launching is not TS.

Besides, I answered OP directly because I know exactly what she is referring to. Granted, it doesn't match up to some of the dogma espoused in this section but then again, not everyone subscribes to such dogma.

Regarding that "hair", I rarely call this stuff out. More often than not, I read...shake my head in frustration and move on without saying a word. But this time I felt a need to reply because not only do I know of the quote OP is referring to, I live it. Putting it into context, if one is TS, then the steps they take to alleviate their issues may very well fall short of transition in the classic sense but why discount those steps if said person didn't have a need to turn their entire life upside down? In that context, doesn't "transition as far as you are comfortable" kind of make sense? For some, perhaps many, that's as far as they need to go in order to be fulfilled in their life.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

IN the end you can talk all you want

...but it doesn't change that EVERYBODY knows you either transition or you don't. It's an incredibly simple and powerful idea.
And it benefits transsexuals that transition. And it doesn't harm those that don't

I believe everyone has a right to live however they please.
That includes surgeries and HRT...do your homework, make your choice...its your life...I may have opinions about your choice, and I may express them, but I truly respect each choice for better or worse...

I would ask though that for the sake of people that have transitioned, to let us have the chip back on our shoulder
....transition is transition...we all know what it means..its not about denigrating what others are doing..its about communicating a powerful concept..

seriously,
How bout alternate weekend only, holidays, semi-partial, part time transition..??
If you live part time what exactly are you "transitioning" too?? living part time?? part time as a what??

It seems what you are doing is alleviating symptoms of gd...that's not transitioning from or into anything... that's taking hrt, or its weekend expression, or its electrolysis...
why call it anything more than that?? Why is it so important to use that word ??

If you take HRT and go out en femme on weekends what do you gain by calling that transition?

I totally get what Dreamer is talking about, but I don't get why she cares if a transsexual woman says (even with attitude) "that aint transition honey..."

[stefan37]

This argument always seems to rear its ugly head. Those of us that suffer from Gender Dysphora have varying levels of intensity. A transgender variant individual can certainly attempt steps of transition to achieve a level if comfort. Actually is something I advocate to transition to a point where one finds relief. As far as the label of whether you are transsexual or not, I don't get why somebody that is gender variant. Wishes to keep their life intact. No desire to change their name or legal status wants to identify as transsexual. I mean is it some kind of secret society with a membership card? If it is I am missing all of that. An individual that cross dresses part time, make no effort to physically alter their body or brain chemistry. Live their life as a female us not transitioning in any way. Live your life as a female. Take hormones and live as male I would you are transitioning, but why somebody that reaches that level of comfort would consider themselves transsexual just escapes me.

Excuse the grammer and missing words phones suck sometimes

[Barbara Ella]

Kaitlyn brought up a point I want to support. I am transitioning, and am proud of what I am doing and I will keep on doing what I can, moving ever toward the final goal, even if it may be unattainable, and will be forever proud of who and where I am.

And this is not to disparage the accomplishment of those who have progressed further, never. Knowing what it takes to complete the transition, I am even more proud of those who have achieved the end point of transitioning, now seeing what they all go through step by step. I would gladly take everyone of those ladies out to dinner and drinks as acknowledgement.

But I will remain proud of what I am in whatever position I eventually achieve.

Barbara

[Rianna Humble]

The way that I read the original post is that it is specifically asking about MtF transition and how do you define the endpoint if you only transition as far as you (or someone else) is comfortable with.

In that context, pointing out that the dictionary definition of the word "transition" does not define the start and end points is very unhelpful. The thread is not considering a word out of context but a concept "Male to Female transition".

Those who want to derail the thread by turning it into a discussion of whether people who don't need to transition should be called "True transsexual" are also being very unhelpful and are skating on thin ice.

Taking only the steps that you need to alleviate your gender dysphoria is a valid approach to managing gender dysphoria which is supported by WPATH but it is not Male to Female transition, for the simple reason that the endpoint is not being female.

Dreamer's other question about whether Male to Female Transition can stop short of SRS is a valid question. I am someone whose health issues prevent surgery. It is my opinion that I will not have completed transition until I overcome those health issues and can have Gender Confirmation Surgery (what most people here call SRS).

[Aprilrain]

It seems that the people who want to cling to the TS label are the ones who don't actually want to transition where as the people who have transitioned just want to be women. Is that the long and short of it?

[dreamer_2.0]

Possibly. I want to be a woman, but not a TS.

[Kimberly Kael]

Yes, because we all know very well that all who are truly TS go through full transition. Anything less and you're just a fence sitter.

I'm going to assume that was sarcasm?


All the other stuff can be argued I suppose, but how are you making a gender transition if you keep your male name and legal status?

I agree with the sentiment here. The real life experience is all about letting go of the safety net that your prior identity represents and embracing what you're asserting as your gender identity. Generally speaking that involves a legal name change and gender marker changes on identification, but there are cases where I could see exceptions. Having a sufficiently gender neutral name, or legal barriers to name and gender marker changes don't invalidate your identity –*presuming you're not retreating to it for some significant aspect of your life.


Do what you gotta do but for me it was full transition or bust.

Everyone sets their own path, but there's no uniform definition of what constitutes a "full transition." Is FFS required? Do you have to get your school transcripts updated? There are thousands of little details that will vary from one experience to the next.


The only person you need to satisfy is yourself. The only other opinions you really need to consider are those whom you know and love, not some pontificating doctrinaires.

Absolutely, positively, incontrovertibly the case! Nicely stated.


As an aside to this topic, has anyone faced the accusation of being selfish?

Definitely! Primarily from my father. For some reason many people assume that we should simply suffer in silence rather than subject everyone else to the awkwardness of dealing with our transition. Not that it isn't possible to be selfish about transitioning, as when spending your family's retirement savings on surgery. Looking out for your own needs is one thing, doing so at the expense of others is another.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Yes you only have to satisfy yourself...
well gee, if only I had thought of that...

definitions and labels don't seem very satisfying to me

+++++++
the question from the OP is really what can I achieve genderwise without transitioning??

reading between the lines and based on the OP's other posts, the OP is really asking specifically..

As a transsexual, can I do something less than transition, and still have a great quality of life??

The correct answer is how the hell should we know???
I will tell you that the more you feel you are truly female, the harder it will be to have a quality of life without transitioning...but that's a generalization..

You are going to have to do it and find out for yourself.
You will simply have to do something about your problem...

And when you do it, you will know...And it won't matter one tenth of one penny what you or anybody else calls it...because you will really really know for yourself..

[U]Bottom Line
if you are seeking approval/encouragement/affirmation, you can have it, but it won't help you live your best life....

[Zylia]

I'm not a doctor or transsexual, so take my reply with as much grains of salt as needed, but I feel like there's a rather large (too large?) emphasis on the physical side of transitioning here. A 'full transition' in the physical sense still is only as far as the modern medical world can take you today. In my opinion, that point is about as arbitrary as "as far as you're comfortable".

Imagine women discussing what makes a 'real woman': Is it having a womb and ovaries and/or the natural ability to give birth to a child? Is it the lack of Y chromosomes? I feel like I've entered the same kind of discussion here.

[Rianna Humble]

This discussion is not about what makes a 'real woman' (whatever your definition of that might be), but it is about what constitutes transitioning from male to female. (That is why it is called Male to Female transition).

There is a subcurrent in the original post about whether such transition is actually necessary for the relief of Gender Dysphoria.

According to the latest WPATH standards of care, people can suffer from a form of Gender Dysphoria that needs treatment short of transition. That document describes such people as Gender non-Conforming as opposed to Transsexual. It is my belief that some TS folk can get away with behaving as if they were Gender non-Conforming and that they can even get away with it for long periods of time. However, the endpoint is different to the endpoint of MtF transition.

As far as the experience of the OP is concerned, none of us can tell her whether she is Gender non-Conforming or Transsexual since we are not qualified to make that call and in any case have not had a face-to-face consultation with a view to making such a diagnosis.

What those of us who are at various stages of MtF transition can (and frequently do) say is that the OP should not embark upon transition unless she needs to do so but that if she does need to transition, she should not let anything stand in her way.

[Zylia]

I don't think I gave my definition of a 'real woman', that's a conversation I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole, especially on this (sub)forum. I also didn't claim that this discussion is about that. As for transitioning, I think that anyone can draw their own line in the very loose and ever moving sand and call it how they want to call it.

[Badtranny]

Now that we have completely redefined gender transition to mean something less than a gender transition, what's next?

I vote for breast implants that aren't really breast implants. Some girls can't afford the surgery and 'implant' is a rather ambiguous term when you think about it, so why not consider a really nice pair of forms to be the same? I mean they are a breast augmentation are they not? I think this is doable.

Who's with me?

[emma5410]

People say that those who use the word transition to mean a full transition to female are being elitist. I do not think that is the problem. The problem is that those who do not need to fully transition are trying to appropriate the word.
I do not why. I do know that doing it is a lot harder then talking about it.
I know that some would transition all the way but are prevented by medical issues and other reasons beyond their control. But anyone that is intending to keep living as a male to some degree is not transitioning.

[Kathryn Martin]

I guess I have to say something. Transition is simply the act of or the action of going from state to another. "Gender" transition what is that? Getting your girly on or getting your manly on? Being in touch with your whatever side? If that is what you consider transition and all of it's more or less extravagant forms than then putting on the girly Ritz on Friday is just another form of transition. Even if you get your girly on every day, even 24/7 ah well. As Misty says glueing a pair of jiggly gelforms to your chest if a transition too

None of this has in fact anything to do with what transsexuals experience. Transition is just a convenient word but in fact not very accurate. transsexuals need to fix their defect, both hormonally and surgically. They don't become female or male they are female or male but with a body that belies their awareness and experience. So unless you are medically prevented from having surgery because the risks are so high that you might die on the table, re-assignment surgery is central to becoming whole for a transsexual. And just to make it clear, if you have a dick you're not a woman, you may be a transwoman (whatever that means) and if you have a dick you are not a lesbian. You should ask a lesbian whether having a dick qualifies.

And Zyla, read the research already. The truth is out there .....

[Zylia]

Research about what exactly? About penises being the centerpiece (or final piece) of gender, sexes, sexual preference or transitioning? I mean, if that's the case I'm totally fine with that, I don't claim to be an expert in anything as I already suggested. At least it's good to know for the OP who's wondering what varieties of transitions are considered valid.

[Persephone]

It seems that the people who want to cling to the TS label are the ones who don't actually want to transition where as the people who have transitioned just want to be women. Is that the long and short of it?

:cheer: :cheer: :cheer:

Hugs,
Persephone.

[LeaP]

Wonderful! A bi-directional reductio ad absurdum war!

On one hand, the sardonic "anything qualifies, therefore transition is meaningless" as exemplified by Misty's forms example. I'll take this even further ... THINK about being transitioned and you are! Even better, if its possible you MIGHT think about it, you are!

At the other end we have the argument of infinitely dimininishing returns. Can't lock transition down to a specific set of procedures? Couldn't do things in the past we do today? There will be procedures in the future we don't have today? Why it means if you can't become a REAL little girl, you must be Pinnochia.

Aside from the diametrically opposed arguments, we have the semantic approach! "Trans," after all, means to transit, or journey… So it can never be said to be over…

Well done!

The standards of care qualify the word in most cases. I didn't count all the adjectives, but the term transition appears 33 times, including footnotes. Most of them are gender role transition, social transition, and physical transition. The document also refers to the "process" of transition. Finally, there is a statement to the effect that masculinization or feminizing treatments are not always pursued, and that transition is highly individualized, each individual seeking to self actualize around the gender role that fits them best.

So fine. Transition does not equal transition, depending on what kind of transition you are talking about. People need to be more precise in their language. If somebody is transitioning to a different gender role – say a full-time presentation of a genderqueer role – that's fine, but don't confuse that with MTF transsexual transition. Because they're not the same thing.

Can we have some common sense in the use of language please?

[stefan37]

Common sense is not common!

[Zylia]

At the other end we have the argument of infinitely dimininishing returns. Can't lock transition down to a specific set of procedures? Couldn't do things in the past we do today? There will be procedures in the future we don't have today? Why it means if you can't become a REAL little girl, you must be Pinnochia.

Not sure if I'm supposed to be on this end, but I wouldn't put it that way. I'd say that most of these procedures (past, present and future) have nothing to do with changing your gender at all. I always assume that someone who's going through a FtM transition already has the 'female gender', they're only 'correcting' their physical appearance and social and legal status, etc. That's not to say that (any form of) transition isn't necessary at all, but to me that's really up to the individual. Sorry if I'm being too simple, naive or offensive, I tend to be rather nihilistic about a lot of things.

All I can really say is that 'gender' and 'sex' are funny things, e.g. a person with an X and a Y chromosome and androgen insensitivity syndrome is a woman for most intents and purposes, but would be a 'genetic male' on this forum. The more you think about what it all means, the crazier it gets.

[Marleena]

I'm not sure why but I find this thread entertaining.lol.

When is a transsexual not a transsexual? Answer: Since they're born as one the only time that would change is after the transition process is finished and they can live their lives as a woman...or the grim reaper gets them, right?

@ Dreamer It sounds like you'll have your answer soon. If the gatekeepers decide HRT will be beneficial to you then you decide where to go with this. If you start HRT you should know within a month whether it is right for you.

Jorja posted the TSroadmap recently and that will show the steps expected for a TS woman to take. If you don't make it to the end of transition you might get some grief from people but only you live your life. Do what is right for you.It's not a race and there will be many obstacles and unexpected delays. Keep working with you gender therapist.

In my case I was blindsided by the GD and had no time to prepare or think things out, I just needed help and HRT has been a Godsend for me. Now I know why my life was a struggle and other people seemed to breeze through it. So now I see HRT might not be enough for me and I have a lot of work ahead. I'm still struggling too and I admit it.

[Kathryn Martin]

e.g. a person with an X and a Y chromosome and androgen insensitivity syndrome is a woman for most intents and purposes, but would be a 'genetic male' on this forum. The more you think about what it all means, the crazier it gets.

See you have done some research, you need to do more. Chromosomes are considered determinative but are they? What about extentions on the androgen receptor gene, hormonal washes during gestation, what, indeed, about androgen insensitivity syndrome etc. Correcting their physical appearance is in the right direction, pretty good but no cigar. It's a bit more than that.

[Zylia]

Your post feels a bit condescending to me, but I assume that's not your intention. You'd probably be surprised how much I do know about genes, phenotypes, gender, sexes, etc. but that's not what I'm trying to prove here. The "Chromosomes are considered determinative but are they" was my point exactly. Granted, people with AIS et al. are anomalies in the grand scheme of things, they don't disprove all the 'rules', but they're an interesting case nonetheless.

I obviously don't know what being transsexual or a woman for that matter actually means to someone, how they feel, etc. I do know that transitioning is a bit more than correcting your physical appearance. My point was that you're not changing your gender, e.g. turn into a 'real little girl', you were born as the gender you're transitioning into, at least in my ideal world.

[Catherine Hopkins]

I guess we should all be grateful that current treatment guidelines are less of a box than some people's idea of how proscriptive and one size fits all this should be?

I'm sick of boxes. I put myself in one for most of my adult life. Now, I shall avail myself of transitional options until I'm in a reasonably happy place for myself. It won't be the same place as anyone else, necessarily, but it will be my own personal solution. And you know what? I'll have transitioned from my starting point as a male to my finishing point as whatever makes me happy. I may not satisfy some people's idea of true transsexualism or full womanhood but guess what.

[ReineD]

I do know that transitioning is a bit more than correcting your physical appearance. My point was that you're not changing your gender, e.g. turn into a 'real little girl', you were born as the gender you're transitioning into, at least in my ideal world.

You are correct.

To Dreamer_girl, this may be too simplistic, but most of us were assigned a gender at birth, based on our visible sexual characteristics regardless of personal gender identity. We were treated by our caretakers as the assigned gender and were strictly socialized to behave according to the norms for our assigned gender. To transition means to reverse all of that. All four transitions: gender role, social, physical*, and legal are necessary to accomplish a full transition that will achieve a transitioner's goal. A transitioner tells the world that she or he is living and will be treated as the sex that conforms to his or her internal sense of gender.

* the necessity of having SRS for a full transition is debated in some circles. My post isn't getting into that. But all the other forms of transition must be present for a person to be believable to others in their new gender role.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MelissaK, your point is well taken and I understand needing to live outside the gender binary if this is where you are. But we need to differentiate between transitioning from one sex to the other, and transitioning from the gender binary to the gender non-conforming. I'm afraid there is no popular language to use for the latter since society as a whole only sees two genders, male or female.

But maybe here, we could come up with separate words to describe your situation, so as to not confuse things. Using the terms "full transition" vs "partial transition" creates too many debates. Maybe we could use the term "transformation" for the gender non-conformists who cease to live purely as men and who make public their gender non-conformity?

Just a suggestion.

[Debglam]

The further down this path I go, the more comfortable I am with the concept that labels don't mean a damn thing. Ask any two people what "transsexual," "transgender," "transition," and even "woman" means and you will get at least three answers!

I am someone that depends on the accuracy of words for a living but when it comes to this stuff I've just had to let it go. You are not going to get a universally agreed upon definition to any of it. You just have to live your life to the best of your ability and make the best decisions based upon your needs. Namaste.

Oh yeah, I find this funny in hindsight. There is another forum where you not only had to identify yourself but also identify what you liked and disliked. Hi, I'm Debby, a MtF non-op, pre-ho, binary-identified blah blah blah who wants to be friends with blah blah blah but won't talk to blah blah blah! It sounds like the crap you hear when you are in line behind a real DB in Starbucks ordering a No-Fat, Extra Hot, No-Whip, Low-Foam, Latte!

[Rianna Humble]

I obviously don't know what being transsexual or a woman for that matter actually means to someone, how they feel, etc.

I think that this is the nub of the problem. It is easy for people who don't live this to deride us for needing to achieve congruity in our lives - they don't have to live with the crippling feeling that our bodies have been so badly poisoned by our hormone imbalance.

Even some therapists who are well used to helping TS folk will occasionally show that they cannot really comprehend what is happening to us. Saying that we would be surprised how much you know about gender is like someone studying the guitar as a theoretical exercise thinking that this study is enough to turn him into Jimi Hendrix.

The OP is faced with a real dilemma - she doesn't want to accept what her very being is telling her, unless she has some text-book flowchart to say that she is a type 9999.999 Transsexual and therefore instead of transition she only needs to go part of the way.

[dreamer_2.0]

The OP is faced with a real dilemma - she doesn't want to accept what her very being is telling her, unless she has some text-book flowchart to say that she is a type 9999.999 Transsexual and therefore instead of transition she only needs to go part of the way.

She would certainly find that flowchart helpful as she has a very long way to go until being able to accept herself. She also doesn't make a point of speaking in third person very often, although this may be the first time she's referred to herself as "her" and "she"...and can't deny the internal smile it brings. *sigh*

[ReineD]

Dreamer_girl, do you go out at all? Have you considered joining a TG support group, to make friends with others in your shoes?

[dreamer_2.0]

No, I don't go out anymore and recognize that's a problem that needs addressing. There is a TG support group every 3rd Friday of the month in my city. Naturally, I work every Friday but I have submitted a time off request last week for this month's meeting. Haven't heard back yet but there is still lots of time. Although, how many people want to pick up a Friday shift? Probably not many. Fingers are crossed though. Speaking with you ladies is insightful but as many of you probably know, real life connections are desperately needed.

[Debglam]

Speaking with you ladies is insightful but as many of you probably know, real life connections are desperately needed.

I don't think you can overestimate how important it is to actually meet other trans* people face-to-face! For your own peace of mind but you will also find what absolutely amazing people most of these 1 in 200 are! I wish all of my friends were as wonderful as my trans friends are!

Best to you,
Debby

[Zylia]

Saying that we would be surprised how much you know about gender is like someone studying the guitar as a theoretical exercise thinking that this study is enough to turn him into Jimi Hendrix.
I'm not sure if I get your analogy, I know enough theory about 'gender' to turn myself into a perfect example of one or either gender? I don't think I ever claimed something like that.

If you think I'm wrong about something in this thread please correct me. I'm no expert and I'm here to learn as well. It's all fine with me if you don't want to do that, but a "you know nothing" statement like you just made isn't really helpful to anyone (including the OP).

[VeronicaMoonlit]

I am not overly fond of border policing, not at all. I know that some do it, especially amongst the recently transitioned (who feel less secure about their status) but I don't think we really need to be engaging in it.

I"m a bit more permissive than most... I think one can be transitioned without GRS. Simply put

1. It costs money that some do not have.

2. some can't do it for medical reasons

3. the surgery results aren't quite so good for FTM's and it's even more expensive for them, so they often don't do it.

But... I do consider full time + name change status to be a requirement. Which basically means, once you've started that RLE, you've pretty much transitioned in my book... everything else is icing on the cake.

As for the Transsexual label, I consider that a self-identification. There have been plenty of people I consider/considered TS who haven't transitioned and/or not currently done so. Some might be slip siding their way in various forms androgyny only needing a name change and HRT... some might transition after their wife passes away....some might not have figured out for themselves that they're TS yet....but they're still TS. They're just not transitioning/transitioned TS. Since some of those might end up transitioning.. I don't think we should be border policing those people, which includes me.

Veronica

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Hi again Dreamer..
just reading your responses...

my thoughts to you are to drop the long term thinking and immerse yourself in the here and now...(as best as you can!!!)

As you can see from these posts, there is no law that says you have to do this or that...
maybe in the future you can be the centerpiece of a huge debate, but you will only drive yourself crazy

for now its time to get a real life connection or two
..time to get out there and experience your own life and gather the info you will need to make the decisions that will impact your quality of life

[Nigella]

Thank you Kaitlyn, the one thing to remember for anyone who want's answers, IT IS ALL ABOUT YOU !!

If you really care what others think about what YOU want to do, then you will get nothing done because there are too many variables, DO WHAT YOU WANT

[stefan37]

I will echo what others have said. You need to live your life. Explore the various options by doing. You can theorycraft till the sun explodes and will tread water only. You need to start swimming. You can read all the how-to books on any subject you wish. You may become an expert by reading. Reading and doing things are polar opposites in many cases.

Live your life as you want. Not what others would impose.

[Nigella]

You can read all the how-to books on any subject you wish. You may become an expert by reading. Reading and doing things are polar opposites in many cases.


And that is IMHO almost as bad as the topic of another thread. Knowledge of a topic is not an understanding, far from it, live the life, then you will understand. Knowledge is not reality. There are some who confuse the knowledgeable with the practical.

[Kimberly Kael]

No, I don't go out anymore and recognize that's a problem that needs addressing. There is a TG support group every 3rd Friday of the month in my city.

There's no substitute for practical experience if you're trying to decide whether you'd be happier living openly as a woman. I often lament that for those considering transition it's essentially impossible to properly "test drive" their female identity. So it's a question of finding the best approximation you can.

Trans support groups can be useful as a source of information, though there can be as much misinformation spread there as here on the forum. People can and do misrepresent themselves, they just have less leeway in doing so. You'll also likely meet a number of people who are comfortable in a "trans ghetto" environment but who are ill-equipped to venture beyond. These environments are a poor substitute for interacting with the general public, but they're a good non-threatening place to get started.

For anyone seriously considering transition, I'd strongly encourage a progression that gets you as close as practical to a Real Life Experience before committing. I found a week at Diva Las Vegas to be an invaluable start, combining trans* connections with the practical experience of getting out. Not that a vacation in Las Vegas is the real world, not by a long shot, but heading out on my own to find meals or go shopping taught me a lot about myself. Spending an evening dancing made me realize how awkward and confining my life had been while I was trying to make my assigned male identity work. It was positively revelatory to collapse in tears at the end of the week when I contemplated returning to my prior life.

[Rianna Humble]

I'm not sure if I get your analogy

Quite simple, you may have a little theoretical knowledge of some aspects of gender, but what you lack is experience which will give understanding. This is common amongst non-transsexual people since you have absolutely no basis upon which to compare.


a "you know nothing" statement like you just made isn't really helpful to anyone

I never made a "you know nothing statement" in my earlier post, but your theoretical knowledge of gender does not qualify you to understand the intricacies of transsexual experience. Claiming the opposite does not make it so.

[Zylia]

Sorry, but, please, where did I claim to "understand the intricacies of transsexual experience"? Didn't I start my very first reply with "I'm not a doctor or transsexual, so take my reply with as much grains of salt as needed"?

[Kathryn Martin]

Rianna, how can you say that any human being has only theoretical knowledge of gender? that's just weird. Every person born has a very personal and intimate knowledge of gender experiences. I am not sure what the "intricacies" of the transsexual experience are but they seem to have little or nothing to do with gender.

[dreamer_2.0]

Mods - Feel free to close this thread anytime. It's getting off-topic and frankly not helpful.

[Rianna Humble]

Closed at OP request