Perceptions of femininity

[Eryn]

Like many CDers I do a lot of thinking about how femininity is perceived, mostly with a view toward improving my own presentation.

An incident happened today that gave me pause for thought. Don't worry, it's a positive one!

Mimi and I went out to breakfast at a new restaurant. Since we were within my NFZ I was in my normal male mode of T-shirt, shorts, and athletic shoes. Close examination would reveal that not a stitch of it was from the boy side of the aisle but none of the garments were overtly feminine. Here's what I looked like:

209843

We were seated at the counter and the breakfast was excellent. Various waiters and waitresses attended to us, refilling our coffee cups and bringing the dishes. One waiter refilled our cups and says "Is there anything else that I can get for you ladies?" We said "no thank you" and he went off to serve other customers.

Well, this was an interesting occurrence! In his brief contact with us he had decided that I was female despite the fact that I'm tall, have short-cropped hair, wear guy-style glasses and was without makeup, bra or forms.

I was definitely showing some feminine cues. My top was a color and design that might be considered feminine. I was wearing crystal studs in my ears. My legs are shaved and I was wearing shorts, but these weren't visible from where the waiter was talking to us. My face is quite smooth from laser and electrolysis. I was sitting closely with and acting quite familiar with my wife, behavior which could be interpreted as that of two girlfriends.

There were masculine cues as well. I was using my guy voice which is deep. My chest was flat as a pancake. My hair is cropped short. The only jewelry I wore other than my studs was a plain wedding band. My mannerisms were my normal male ones and I was actively watching the sporting events (American football and Superbike racing) on the nearby TVs.

Mimi and I speculated on this afterward. Did the waiter walk away thinking "Wow, I called that guy a 'lady!' Luckily, he didn't seem to notice!"? Was the waiter convinced that he had judged my gender correctly when I didn't object? Does Eryn really leak that badly? Was the waiter TG and recognized me as the same?

So, what was it that flipped his gender recognition switch to "female"? Whatever it is, I'd like to get it in a bottle! :)

[AllieSF]

Based on my view of the pic, here are what I see on the feminine side, and I actually registered more feminine traits than male. All based on my look at your pic. First your T-shirt has a little shorter sleeves and a slightly lower neck line than a typical male one. The light blue color, even being blue, is more female than male, the design, which I can not see any detail is recognized by my mind as on the female side. The shorts are a bit shorter than regular male shorts, but somewhat baggier than female shorts. Your posture is on the soft male side and close to a casual female slumping pose. You appear to have small and narrow shoulders more typical of females. Just looking at the structure, shape and color contrasts of your face, light skin short dark hair, pic taken at a distance, I can relate that look alone to some women that I know. With your facial details blurred, I do not see the familiar male features that one, including my mind, would expect to see on a male, though that look is typical for both males and females.

All these items are what I see and I have looked several times at your pic. So, I would say at quick glance I can see why the waiter said what was said. Good work, intentional or not.

[Sophie Yang]

Eryn,

I'll take a big bottle also. It doesn't happen often, but it has happened to me also. The last incident that I clearly remember was in SF on a wet rainy day on Market St & Battery St. It was all male attire, a work day. My jacket had a hood which was up. There is a place that sells cookies from an elevated cookie counter. Looking down over the counter, the sales person could only see my face and long hair. Out of no where, "yes ma'am", what can I get you. Mistaken identify? I don't know.

It could have been what I call a gender bender moment. I have done it to both men and women at the office. I will be concentrating on my work when someone will interrupt me. Without looking, I "yes ma'am" or "yes sir" him or her incorrectly. It is not intentional, it is just a conditioned response, open mouth and stick both feet in. It prompts a sorry on my part and we usually laugh it off.

[abigailf]

People in the services industry (waiters, bar tenders, etc) see a ton of things from strange to odd. Trans people are one of the more normal things. I had spent some time talking to my waiters and bar tenders about trans people and reading them. Many of them said they usually can recognized a trans person. It is possible that the waiter saw you as a feminine looking person, called you mam and after hearing your male voice just figured you were trans. Or perhaps he thought you may have been an F2M and was being mean by calling you mam.

Anyway, take it when you can get it.

[Wildaboutheels]

You were obviously making no attempt to "pass" as a GG. And ALSO making no attempt to pass as a male? [And I think the "average" guy will make dang sure he is wearing nothing that anyone could consider feminine even down to wearing pink or yellow colors] You were obviously dressed in CD Hybrid mode and presented enough non male cues, that the waiter made his best guess on what to call you.

My take anyway.

[Lori Kurtz]

This shows something I think we're all aware of when we dress up and hope to pass, but that otherwise we don't even think about: that there are lots of subtle clues that people use, without being consciously aware of them, to make the quick decision to say "Sir" vs. "Ma'am", or to think, "Wow, she's cute," vs. "Oh, that's a guy, so I'm not interested because I'm not gay."

[Leona]

He probably didn't look past the clothes, since for the service industry, those are the things to look for in a quick pass. Had he spent more time with you (taking your order, actually communicating, etc), he might have responded to you being a man.

I've worn all male clothes and otherwise presented as male, with my long rocker hair, and been ma'amed solely because the person only gave a cursory glance and ran off to do other things. That guy came back to apologize, and I had to reassure him no offense was received. He kept pushing it, so I said quite loudly "Are you apologizing because you think it's bad to be a girl?" Then he shut up and left us alone.

[Tracii G]

That happens to me a lot if they would look harder they could tell I was male but they glance at the clothes and assume female.
I like that outfit Eryn you gender bender you.LOL

[Richelle]

Eryn,

This happens to me all the time. I personally believe that the clothes and your earrings with a lack of facial hair is the cause. I noticed that I have gotten older and my facial hair whiter that my wife and I are greeted as "ladies" more often when I am warring a ladies tee shirt or tank and earrings.

In fact it happened today. Although I also had nail polish on, we were greeted as ladies and the server said ladies multiple times during breakfast.

Richelle

[Barbara Dugan]

I experienced that a few times on the supermarket and on one occasion at the road toll booth interesting I was wearing a baseball cap a black shirt and had a very close shave

[ReineD]

I think the girl's Tshirt, the crystal earrings (do guys wear crystal earrings?) and the absence of facial hair would override everything else. Do you also have longish finger nails for a genetic male? Is there an absence of hair on your arms? Are your eyebrows trimmed? These would be even more feminine cues. Also, a lot of women wear their hair short so this is no longer just a male cue. You've got your face blurred so I can't tell how feminine or masculine your features are.

But whatever were the waiter's reasons for addressing you as a woman, you must be absolutely thrilled! Congratulations! :)

[Eryn]

Actually, in SoCal, crystal studs are quite common for males, but I'm at the upper end of the age range for the fashion.

My nails aren't long, but they did have a semi-gloss clear coat on them. Eyebrows were cleaned up, but not in a feminine fashion. My arms don't have any hair on them.

Yes, I blurred the face as I don't want my male-mode face out on the 'net. My jaw is squarer then I would like but you're right about the facial hair. The electrolysis has really been good for my facial skin and it looks smoother and younger than it did when it was hairy. I did have four days growth of the stray hairs that I'm playing whack-a-mole with but they are mostly fine and white.

I am quite thrilled over it. It'll make me more confident when I am properly dressed!

[Beverley Sims]

Hand inflections quite often play a big part.
The less you do it the more convincing it is.
Speaking in a soft voice can throw things over the edge too.

[ReineD]

MySO has long, curly, mid-back hair. We've been addressed as "ladies" by SAs, etc when they see us from behind (when my SO was in guy mode). This thrills my SO too. Once, s/he was walking along the street without a shirt in the high heat of summer. A truck driver coming up from behind honked, likely believing this was a topless girl. lol. My SO then went home and put on a dress.

[Kathinja Galaxy]

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?200151-Food-for-Thought..

I had this discussion not even a few days ago.. may this shed some light for you :)

[kimdl93]

Fascinating. I do think that there are enough women with short cropped hair out there that your gender might have appeared, at least , ambiguous.

[PretzelGirl]

Also a consideration, if you were sitting to where he wouldn't see your shorts or legs, then your height becomes far less apparent. We don't necessarily perceive it as well when everyone is sitting down. Just this week, I ran into one of my Program Managers that I have been working with for about a year. Until now I hadn't realized that all of those meetings were with him sitting at his desk. He dwarfs me by a good 5 inches and I never had a clue.

[Druscilla Supernovae]

The color of the tshirt is what it was. Color is everything. If you had a black tshirt it may have been different.

[Rachel Morley]

Mimi and I speculated on this afterward. Did the waiter walk away thinking "Wow, I called that guy a 'lady!' Luckily, he didn't seem to notice!"? Was the waiter convinced that he had judged my gender correctly when I didn't object? Does Eryn really leak that badly? Was the waiter TG and recognized me as the same?
This is super interesting to me. My wife and I have had the same discussion as this has happened to me quite a few times. I am so glad this happens to other couples too :) My wife found it really quite funny that people sometimes actually (seemed to?) think I was a woman and called me mam when I was in boy mode. Like you, I am small in stature and I wear women's clothes in in boy mode that make me look not very manly but (I think) not particularly feminine either. I wear earrings, trimmed eyebrows and long nails painted shiny clear. I have no hair on my body and have had a lot of laser treatments.

So what was our conclusion? Well, my wife thinks that people who are waiting tables or SAs etc really only quickly glance at people and really don't look "that" closely. You said that you thought that perhaps the waiter was thinking "Wow, I called that guy a 'lady!' Luckily, he didn't seem to notice!"? ... we thought that this was the most likely thing. Anyway, whatever it is that makes this happen to us I sure would like it to happen more.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Eryn, Your girly side is trying to get out.

[Ressie]

Looks like you have small hands and not much for biceps.

[bridget thronton]

My hair is chin length and usually worn down. When I am out with my wife I usually get the "what can I get for you ladies" from the wait staff - regardless if I am wearing boy clothes or not (when they apologize - I tell them not to worry ladies is fine).

[michelleddg]

Several have suggested the "long hair = female" cue, and that has been my experience on several occasions. (I present as male except for my foot long pony tail.) I've been ma'amed with two days of beard growth! Definitely happens more when in the presence of women; I've been ma'amed solo but happens even more often when with my wife. Hugs, Michelle

[Persephone]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v161/commander_robot/dripping_water.gif

Hugs,
Persephone.

[ReineD]

Persephone .. What? The flood gates are about to open?

[PretzelGirl]

I suspect Persephone is saying that she is leaking her femme side.

[Lorileah]

People see what they want to see?....:idontknow:

[ReineD]

Oops. :p

..........

[Eryn]

I'm sure that I leak quite a bit. So does Persephone, so we tend to joke about it! :)


Fascinating. I do think that there are enough women with short cropped hair out there that your gender might have appeared, at least , ambiguous.

One way that I've attempted to keep my male and female selves separated is by keeping my male hair quite short. I guess it's a lost cause since the GGs have usurped that bastion of masculinity as well! :)


The color of the tshirt is what it was. Color is everything. If you had a black tshirt it may have been different.

I agree. Before I came to grips with my feminine self I had a large number of black T-shirts, perhaps subconsciously trying to get as far away from my unacknowledged feelings as possible. I don't wear them very much now.

I think the printed design probably had a lot to do with it as well.

Curiously, Mimi and I were shopping in the mens' department of JC Penney and found that they had a lot of colorful V-neck mens' shirts for sale. I bought a half-dozen in colors like reddish-pink, yellow, light and medium blue, orangy-brown, etc. Not terribly masculine, but they are from the men' side!

http://www.jcpenney.com/gifts/for-him/arizona-v-neck-slub-tee/prod.jump?ppId=pp5002190809&cmvc=JCP|SearchResults|RICHREL&grView=&eventRootCatId=&currentTabCatId=&regId=


Like you, I am small in stature and I wear women's clothes in in boy mode that make me look not very manly but (I think) not particularly feminine either. I wear earrings, trimmed eyebrows and long nails painted shiny clear. I have no hair on my body and have had a lot of laser treatments....

Guilty as charged, except that I'm not terribly small in stature at 5'14". Sitting behind a counter helps but there's no hiding my height.

My photo above was shot with the camera six feet high so I don't look as tall. I'm also used to taking femme mode pictures so I tend to pose more femininely than I actually act in male mode.