Have you CONVINCED yourself that you’re a woman?

[Frédérique]

A week or so after the fact, and I’m still thinking about this extremely profound post:


The Night before last, I really felt like i am a girl. I am. How did you girls feel when you first convinced yourselves(?)

This could be the proverbial cornerstone of transgender – the act of convincing yourself that you’re a woman. I guess that’s why I don’t feel I’m TG, despite protestations to the contrary – I never tried to convince myself, indeed such a thing is either pointless or impossible, in my case. For others, convincing yourself may be a lifelong quest, a quest fraught with ups and downs, miscellaneous difficulties, and even the “tough love” of one’s own adopted community...

Convince is a strong word. It means to overcome the doubts of, to persuade, or to satisfy by evidence or argument, also to convict. The need to convince implies a certain level of doubt in one’s mind, if you wish (in this instance), to come to a point where you are convinced you’re a woman. If you’re MtF, as we who frequent this section mostly are, wouldn’t you say that your convictions, either desired or already present, have to persuade (or influence) his will? You either feel that you’re a woman, or you really should’ve been a woman, or you really WANT to be a woman, for whatever reason, so you set out to convince yourself of this fact, regardless of the cost, no matter what it takes...

To me, that is the essence of transgender, and I can now better understand why TG individuals are so defensive about things – it takes a lot of effort, this convincing, and nothing will deter the person from attaining a state where there are NO doubts. Fair enough. As I said earlier, I have no need to convince myself I’m a woman – I just dress like one, to appear like one, for a brief time, purely for enjoyment. I’m convinced I’m a MtF crossdresser, and nothing more. I have no doubts about that. I may look like a woman, to a certain degree, and I may entertain the idea of feeling like a woman now and then (according to my own precepts), but I could not persuade anyone that I actually WAS a woman. Speaking of certainty, I don’t have the full assurance of mind that is required to overcome my birth gender, something that, to me at least, cannot be denied...

I appreciate the effort required by a person struggling to convince, just like I admire those who have “won the battle,” so to say, as if there ever was a battle to begin with. I encounter many true individuals on this site who are imbued with the most heroic convictions – they have accepted themselves, indeed convinced themselves, of something that cannot be denied. Is it true that many people on this site have fulfilled the conditions of their personal mindset, achieving an unquestionable transgendered being, gratifying one’s wants, desires, and wishes? In other words, can you convince yourself that you’re a woman if you really want to? History is full of people who were convinced they were one thing or another, so they set out to satisfy this inner longing. I love people who reinvent themselves, a true act of courage in the face of conformity, but is convincing yourself that you’re a woman an act of courage or an act of necessity?

Rather than reinvent myself, I created an alter ego, or another aspect of myself, via crossdressing. I didn’t set out to do that, rather it was an outgrowth of my tactile, fetishistic proclivities. In many ways I am my own bosom buddy (pun unintended), a close friend or companion who is always there. This was the inevitable result of my isolated childhood, but I never felt that I actually was a girl. A quick glance in the mirror precludes any need to convince me otherwise. Crossdressing created my alter ego, simply by putting a new frame around something that was already there. This new aspect of me caused a few convulsions, but no need to convince myself that the boy wasn’t still there, under the clothes and makeup. As such, I could safely skip the need for conversion, or transmutation, from one state to another, and just enjoy my femme adornments...

If you have convinced yourself that you’re a woman, how did you accomplish it? I’d like to know. Really. You don’t have to convince me that transgender people exist, since I already know that. You also don’t have to convince me that there are males by birth who actively convince themselves they are actually women, or boys who are convinced that they are really girls. I know that, too. I admire your convictions, whoever you are, wherever you are, and whatever you are. I am, in many ways, a sympathetic bystander who is easy to persuade, or convince. I’m not here to convict you of a crime against gender, like outsiders might do. If you wish to convince yourself that you’re a woman, existing in fact and truth, sure and inevitable, I’m definitely on your side. I hope I’ve convinced you of that...

Are you convinced that you’re a woman? Tell me about it...:straightface:

BTW – Even though I could never convince myself that I’m a woman, I’m convinced I’m an artist. I’ve convinced others of this unalterable fact, too, so I’m satisfied. However, I’m not convinced I’m a writer, so please relax...
:doh:

[Lorileah]

Semantics once again. You take the word convince to extremes. Transsexuals don't have to convince themselves, they are. CDs use the word convince in a more liberal way. They convince themselves that they look the part. They, as you point out, are not nor will be a woman. But they look convincing either to themselves or to the world at least at a glance.

You try and make a case that certain people here work to become something they are not, that they consciously decide to change. The only conscious part of it is to stop pretending to be something you aren't in a transsexual light. Those who are innate women only have to decide if they want to become a woman. I suppose there is some convincing needed for that but they know inside what they are. If you have to convince yourself, you ain't one.

My take on the quote was that the person actually hit upon the combination to be "convincing" to themselves and others in a public manner. Not that they had an epiphany that they were in the wrong body.

And why are you not convinced you are a writer? You may not have been published nor paid for your writing but you are most definitely a writer. Now convincing yourself to submit an article...that is another matter

[arbon]

I used to always try to convince and accept myself being a man,

being a woman is much less work and mind games

[SophieKitty]

For me i don't need convincing of who I am. I am who I am

[kimdl93]

No, I most certainly have not. As we have learned by now - there are many gradients of TG from the occassional dresser to those who wish to or need to live full time as a woman. And there are similar variations in the extent that each of us identifies as female. A transsexual can rightly say she is a woman. Some TG people may be very close to expressing that feeling, but I suspect that most are somewhere farther away on the spectrum.

So where am I...well, I have no qualms in saying that I am biologically male. I have a murkier conception of my inner self. I enjoy presenting as a woman, and quite frankly I'm much happier, much more comfortable doing so. But, unlike a TS person, I don't feel gender dysphoria...at least not beyond a measure of discomfort when I have to present as male. Theres a lot of lattitude allowed for how one feels, how one chooses to present oneself.

[Persephone]

Frédérique, you have to read Shel Silverstein's Lafcadio, The Lion Who Shot Back.

I don't know precisely what I am. Frankly, I don't care if I am a CD, a TG, or a TS, the thing I do know is that I am me, competent, confident, and caring. I can sometimes be found between the Mounds and the Almond Joy (Hm, a better analogy than I thought when I ws just thinking "Sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you don't").

It took me a long time to get where I am today, a long, long difficult time. But I've become convinced that plumbing is not destiny.

The thing I now know is that I can move easily into the world of women and be accepted. Men treat me as a woman, they hold doors, they say "Ma'm," and they even sometimes dance with me. Women accept me as just another woman, no doubts, no hesitations, no surprises.

I socialize, eat, drink, exercise, and be merry as a woman. I've even spent weeks travelling as "just one of the girls" (I don't know how else to express it) with other women. Picture three or four women sharing a common bathroom mirror area as we all apply our makeup and you'll get the idea.

And that means that when I am out with others I am a woman, right down to my core. No need to pretend.

Hugs,
Persephone.

P.S. - After I posted I was checking my email and thought the following interchange would illustrate my point of view:

I'd received an invitation to a women's group lady's only party.

ME: Hi M! Please put me on the list for the party. I would like to bring a dessert but please let me know if you need me to do something else instead. Hugs, Barbara

HER: Barbara, You are on the list. I am glad you are coming. I do not want to specifically assign any food. Dessert is good....if you can and would like to make deviled eggs, that would be great, do not have that as yet. If you want to bake dessert, something with cooked/baked apples, coffee cake, cup cakes, ehatever you want to make will be perfect. M.

[NicoleScott]

Not yet, but I'll keep practicing.

[PaulaQ]

The trouble with the word convince is that it implies that you talked yourself into being a woman, and therefore that you had a choice in the matter. I don't think that's what you mean at all, Frederique, based on the rest of your post. I think you mean something more along the lines of deduce - i.e. how'd you figure out the reality of your situation, since the false belief for some of us is that we were actually men.

So assuming that's how you mean it - and if I'm wrong about that please correct me - I spent the first part of this year in therapy, and in a great deal of introspection over the extreme distress, depression, and anxiety I was feeling. (When I say extreme I mean just that - I was suicidal and borderline paranoid.) I noticed that my anxiety lessened massively when I was crossdressed. I noticed that I didn't dress to get off, or to feel good - I noticed I dressed to feel normal. I also considered the weird emotional and psychological stuff going on with me. I basically couldn't pee standing up. There was no physical reason for that - I just couldn't do it, especially in a public men's restroom. Looking at women's clothes in a store felt normal - it's hard to explain this, but I'd always resisted this type of thing - what if someone noticed something was wrong with me?!? My thoughts seemed alien to me, there was this part of me that was trying to claw its way out.

I also realized that I'd had similar, but not as extreme, thoughts and feelings twice before in my life, when I was younger. Both times, I suppressed this stuff, but not before it made really pretty decent attempts to kill me (suicidal thoughts the first time, along with hallucinations, and alcoholism the second time), and that both of those prior events paled in comparison to what I was currently going through.

So I spent lots of time in therapy, and even more time by myself, alone in my study after my wife went to bed, and I finally reached the inescapable conclusion that I was transsexual - that I'd been born a woman trapped in a man's body, and that I'd been hiding and suppressing this for my entire life, at least since I was 10 or so. I realized it explained my feelings of alienation from other people, especially men.

I remember weeping bitterly when I realized all of this, and finally said to myself "oh my god, I'm a woman." Because I knew that such portions of my life as I did like, like my marriage, my beautiful home, my observatory, all of that stuff I was going to lose. I knew this with an icy certainty. I'd hoped I was wrong (paranoia - remember), but I knew it was likely the reality. I feared I'd disappoint and lose my children, and that they'd hate me for lying to them for their entire lives. I feared I'd lose my friends, and that people wouldn't respect me any longer - that I'd disappoint them. And my wife, oh my god, my wife - I knew with certainty that I'd destroy her happiness, probably forever, and ruin the one place she'd ever felt she could truly call home. The guilt I felt over all of that was unbelievable. I hadn't wept in a long time - tears are hard for me, even now - but I wept that night. I was certain I'd never be accepted as a woman, and yet had no choice but to live as one. I couldn't imagine a worse fate.

There were a lot of things I liked about my life - my life didn't suck. (Far from it.) The trouble is - I sucked! I hated myself. I have always felt like a horrible person. I'm not a horrible person - I'm quite the opposite, but I *hated* myself. I hated my image in the mirror - so ugly. I hated my body. And I was starting to really be bothered by certain male characteristics of mine. My body hair freaked me out. My male shape seemed grotesque. (That stuff is still alive and well, and getting worse. It is really uncomfortable!)

I regretted selling my boat that night. Suicide via boating accident would've been really hard to prove, without a note. People die on the water all the time. My wife and kids could at least have collected my life insurance that way.

It was a terrible night, that night in March - and I faced it alone. I came out to my wife three weeks later.

[Marcelle]

Hi Freddy,

Though provoking thread.

No, I have not convinced myself I am a woman nor am I likely to do so in the future. That part of me which is male is still very much a part of my life and I like what I see when look at him in the mirror. In the same bane, that side of me who expresses herself en femme is just that, my feminine side made as real as possible. As you said, one look in the mirror and know I am not a woman nor am I ever likely to be confused with one. However, Isha is the vessel which holds my feminine soul the same way my boy mode holds my masculine soul. Both have a place.

The only thing I am slowing convincing myself of as I move down this pathway, is that I am normal, I am the me I was always supposed to be. If that means part of me has a desire to dress en femme and express herself through pretty clothes, lingerie and feminine gestures, then that is no different than me presenting myself in male attire to express that which is masculine in me.

Will I present en femme in public someday . . . perhaps. However, it won't be because I convinced myself I am a woman, it will be because I convinced myself to accept me for who I am. But alas . . . I still have a long journey ahead of me.

Hugs

Isha

[Cynthia Anne]

The only thing I'm convince of is my outside needs to match my inside! I did not convince myself of that! For that is a fact! No convincing needed!

[Veronica27]

[COLOR="black"]This could be the proverbial cornerstone of transgender – the act of convincing yourself that you’re a woman. I guess that’s why I don’t feel I’m TG, despite protestations to the contrary – I never tried to convince myself, indeed such a thing is either pointless or impossible, in my case. For others, convincing yourself may be a lifelong quest, a quest fraught with ups and downs, miscellaneous difficulties, and even the “tough love” of one’s own adopted community...




The trouble with the word convince is that it implies that you talked yourself into being a woman, and therefore that you had a choice in the matter. I don't think that's what you mean at all, Frederique, based on the rest of your post. I think you mean something more along the lines of deduce - i.e. how'd you figure out the reality of your situation, since the false belief for some of us is that we were actually men.



So the question is "do we convince ourselves that we are women, or deduce that we are women? This distinction is an extremely important one, because either way implies that being a woman was not an obvious fact at the outset. Deducing that we are involves an analysis of all the pertinent facts, resulting in a somewhat objective conclusion that we are. Convincing ourselves does not involve such an analysis, but instead is more of an example of good salesmanship.

Paula did not think that the "convince" approach was what Frederique meant, but I tend to think that for some people, that was precisely the message. Please forgive me if I have misinterpreted anything, as I am no doubt influenced by some of my own viewpoints on the issue. I have often alluded to the fact that prevailing attitudes about such things as the subject of this thread, provide a safe explanation of our unusual and somewhat anti-social predilections. Leaving the reasons for those activities to the more hedonistic explanations of enjoyment, adventure, etc. leaves us open to the ridicule of others.

How many of those who believe that they are to some extent women, do so as a result of careful analysis of their own psyche, and how many have been persuaded to think that way because of the overall tenor of the opinions on forums such as this? There is certainly a degree of safety in being a part of a seemingly vocal majority, especially when the message is one that appears to provide such a facile explanation. However, what really matters, whatever the reasons, is the extent to which we are being true to ourselves.

A great topic, and I hope it "convinces" many to "deduce" some thoughtful replies.

Veronica

[Bethany_Anne_Fae]

I don't have to... I know I'm both.


*hugs*
Bethany

[Angela.Moni]

I feel so womanly I forget about "the other" me. I just feel like a woman, 100%. You would have to convince me otherwise.

[nethiker55]

I don't have to or want to! I am what I am sometimes I am more comfortable just allowing the female side of me take charge. I am a male who has many female feelings and traits. Sometimes I love to be dressed as a woman and feel all soft and sexy and sometimes I do very manly things like rebuilding my house or work on my truck. I know I am not a woman and never will be but I seem more womanly every year. They say we all start out female and then develop as a male. I always felt that development in me was stunted and I never quite made it all the way to male and with each passing year I become more female and less male

[Georgina]

No and I will not be trying to do so. Happy as I am.

[Deedee Skyblue]

Nope, Freddy, and I don't even try. I'm a guy and in this life, at least, a guy I'll remain. Maybe in my next life.

Deedee

[Michelle789]

I think it's more trying to come to terms with who I really am rather than convincing myself of my gender identity.

[Frédérique]

As we have learned by now - there are many gradients of TG from the occasional dresser to those who wish to or need to live full time as a woman. And there are similar variations in the extent that each of us identifies as female. A transsexual can rightly say she is a woman. Some TG people may be very close to expressing that feeling, but I suspect that most are somewhere farther away on the spectrum.

I detect a lot of “convincing” going on right here, on this site, as evidenced by the plethora of posts declaring one’s intentions, femme mindset, or things yet to accomplish. To some, not much convincing is required, while to others “to convince” is all-consuming. I, at the far end of the spectrum you have described, am content to think of myself as a woman now and then, and not seek any proof to support my claim. In my little fantasy world I AM a woman, perhaps, a sugary caprice made up in my boyish mind, but that’s different. I could never convince myself of something that I am not. Meanwhile, like the bowler in cricket, I have to ask the question...


So the question is "do we convince ourselves that we are women, or deduce that we are women? A great topic, and I hope it "convinces" many to "deduce" some thoughtful replies.

So far, so good...:)

I told one of my friends this morning that I was getting ready to write and submit a controversial thread OP, something I’ve been thinking about for a couple of weeks (it seems). I’m fascinated by this idea of convincing, since it links up many viewpoints that are prevalent on this site. It seems to me that if we deduce that we are women, the convincing would begin in earnest, but I’m mainly talking about transgendered individuals (individuals ALL), and not transsexuals per se...

The idea of “being anything you want to be” keeps coming up around here, much like the echo that bounces off of the canyon wall, and MtF crossdressing tests this premise to the limit. If you can literally be anything you wish to be, you could conceivably convince yourself that you’re a woman, and set about proving your “case,” not only to yourself but to others as well. If you come to live your life as a woman, turning away from your birth gender as a matter of course, I would say that you have definitely done some convincing along the way...

Someone might deduce that I’m a woman, if they saw me, and that would make me feel good, but I think that convincing oneself takes a lot more effort, borne on the stubborn wings of determination. This is about DECIDING to be a woman, and setting out to convince yourself – if you are TS, I assume you have no choice in the matter...
:straightface:

[PaulaQ]

If you come to live your life as a woman, turning away from your birth gender as a matter of course, I would say that you have definitely done some convincing along the way...

This is about DECIDING to be a woman, and setting out to convince yourself – if you are TS, I assume you have no choice in the matter...
:straightface:[/COLOR]

How would you reasonably distinguish between these two cases for late transitioners? Or are you talking about girls who live 24/7, but never exactly transition in any way? (My sense is that a lot of these girls ultimately transition, despite protestations of "too old", "don't see the need", etc.)

Or are you talking about someone who CDs sometimes, to some extent, and has some type of fantasy that they are a woman, but in reality would never transition, and in fact such a process would be harmful to them?

I have to be honest, I don't see a lot of that. I see a lot of convincing going on around here about being men - e.g. "Check out my new double-D forms" in the pictures subforum, followed by "I'm a manly man, I love being a guy - I do GUY THINGS!" You can see plenty of this in this thread - with the protestations to the contrary of "I IS A MAN!!!" (Which is nice, but we weren't talking to you sweetie, this thread was for girls! teehee! :))

Am I wrong to view this as any more self-convincing than what you are implying? I'll answer my own question - no, I am not wrong. The logic seems to be "I was born with a dingus, therefore, I must be a MAN", never mind such a person then posts in the "What color panties are you wearing" thread...

So it seems to me that much of the convincing going on here is from transgendered folks trying to convince themselves that they are male.

In the words of Tyler Durden "How's that working out for you?" :)

Edit: one last question for Frederique - if you presume that TS girls have no choice about their condition, what makes you think that CDs have any more choice? I see many posts here from people who can't quit. How do they have a choice about their gender issues? (Just trying to understand who you are talking too here!)

[Beverley Sims]

Standing up to pee does make it less convincing.
Very handy to be able to do that sometimes. :)

[Marleena]

Another thought provoking thread Freddy.:)

Yes some are trying to convince themselves they may be a woman and some actually are.

However I see others trying to convince us they're men, they're not gay, they're only CD, It's just the clothes, they are not transgender, and on and on...

If they keep harping on the same thing I wonder who they really are trying to convince us or themselves?

Oh..and for the record as Freddy Mercury said in a song "Nothing really matters to me'...

[docrobbysherry]

I've thot/think a lot about this subject, Freddie. Because of all the posts here discussing how the writer, "felt like a woman", or mention something about their, "female side". Because how would they know?

Since they've never been women, don't they REALLY mean, "I think I felt like a woman"? And, "I imagine those feelings/thots came from a feminine side of me"?

The only thing I know for sure, is what women look like. No idea what it feels like to be one. Of course, I've imagined that I was walking like a woman or dancing like a woman. Because I couldn't see myself, there was no visible proof to the contrary. But, while I LOOK like someone else dressed, (a woman). I've never "convinced myself" or imagined that I've ever had female thots or feelings.

Maybe some of us CD's just don't get the trans experience?

[ReineD]

So the question is "do we convince ourselves that we are women, or deduce that we are women?


I think both are true. Some people know they are TS (women) either early on or later, and they never waiver from this. The gender dysphoria is so pronounced that they hate having a man's body, they hate conforming to a man's gender role, and they hate presenting as a man. What's more, they cannot live as a man.

Others know they are TS (woman), but manage to walk a fine line for the sake of family and kids.

While others say that they are women yet they are satisfied living in a man's body for part of the time, in other words their gender dysphoria is not great enough to stop living as a man ... if they do have gender dysphoria.

But I also think that some people get such a kick out of presenting as a woman that they eventually want to be a woman (depending on their personal circumstances), and they can easily convince themselves they can be women. Perhaps some of these people stay stuck there for years and years.

Some people know that they are gender non-conforming ... they live outside the gender binary.

Let's not forget all the different definitions of "a woman". Some people think that it means dressing like one. Others mistake the euphoric feelings they get when they dress, for "feeling like a woman". Still others think that being a woman is being beautiful, and if one cannot be beautiful then it's not worth it. While TSs know who they are, they do live on the female side of the gender boundary, and being a woman is not mostly about clothes, it's not mostly about feeling euphoric, and it's not mostly about feeling sexy, and it's not all about being beautiful.

There is not one answer that fits all and really, all of this can ONLY be self-assessed and self-reported. And only the self can do this, unless a person is in denial. And the denial can go both ways.

[PaulaQ]

The gender dysphoria is so pronounced that they hate having a man's body, they hate conforming to a man's gender role, and they hate presenting as a man. What's more, they cannot live as a man.


Having BTDT, I can say that it can take quite a bit of deduction to figure out that you are suffering from gender dysphoria. I've found the process of understanding my gender to be this labyrinthine process, like something out of a Franz Kafka novel, but with fewer laughs.

[AmyGaleRT]

Frédérique, as I have mentioned before, I am convinced that, though I may not be outwardly female in flesh, a part of my soul is female. When I dress, I feel like I'm bringing my outward appearance into congruence with that part of myself, to let the "inner woman" dominate for awhile. But I never lose sight of the male part of my identity, either, which is what usually dominates.

Outwardly, this would appear no different from your concept of an alter ego self. The difference is that I feel both parts of myself to be always present, just that one or the other is dominant depending on how I'm dressed. (The "non-dominant" part of myself does have the sense of being "along for the ride" in those circumstances.)

There is no "battle" or "conflict" between the two parts of myself. I have come to view my Amy-self as a gift, one that allows me to experience life from a different perspective, and appreciate experiences ordinary cisgender males might not even comprehend!

- Amy

[mariehart]

I think both are true. Some people know they are TS (women) either early on or later, and they never waiver from this. The gender dysphoria is so pronounced that they hate having a man's body, they hate conforming to a man's gender role, and they hate presenting as a man. What's more, they cannot live as a man.I pretty much agree with all of ReineD's post and this in particular. I hate my male body and always did even as a child when I no sense of why I did. I thought I was ugly. The photos of the time say otherwise.

In reference to the original premise of the thread. I think I see where you can convince yourself that you're a woman when in fact you are simply a crossdresser. The irony for me is that I spent years convincing myself I was a crossdresser when I was really transgender. As part of that I pursued a quixotic career dream and other displacement activities. Looking back now it was rather comic and it must be said sad.

But in terms of convincing yourself of being something you're not. Well the example is there in the entertainment industry. Many of the better known actors are method actors. They become the person they play. Daniel Day Lewis famously so. I think in many ways one of the catalysts of my own self realisation came when I began to work as an Extra and small acting roles on TV and movies. I found I was a natural, after all I was pretending to be a man all my life. But it was soon obvious that you could easily convince yourself you're the person you play. Dashing through a forest at night while been shot at was terrifying even though it wasn't real. I became angry at a lawyer who was cross examining me. It became real even in the midst of all the paraphernalia of movie sets.

But it was all illusory because I actually don't know what it's like to be shot at or have a lawyer cross examine me. I think I do but I don't and I do think many actors believe they have more of an insight into the lives of the people they play than they do in reality.

So I can see how a CD can take it to the point that they begin to believe they are in fact TG or actually female. There have been cases of people going all the way to transition and then regretting it. They convince themselves to the point where reality and imagination are hard to tell apart. This isn't just the case with CDs. It's there in the whole of society. People turning up on TV talent shows CONVINCED they can sing.

We all do it in one form or another in our lives. Maybe it's the human condition. How we cope with our lives. My life began to fall apart when I lost a lot of convictions and illusions about myself. When I faced into the reality of my TG state. I ended up like PaulaQ, in despair and suicidal. I actually got married as a way of avoiding it and convincing myself I wasn't really TG. Didn't work though.

Reality has a way of destroying conviction.

[TheMissus]

Until you've been born an actual female, no one here can understand the reality of our existence. No one. You can only assume the feelings you have are feminine but no genetic male will ever really know for sure. This fact alone means even the TS must have had a moment, even a small one, where they've needed to convince themselves that they are female. For how would any male ever really know? Seriously, how??

If you can do this, in my mind it doesn't matter where it comes from. If you can convince yourself you're a woman - convince yourself it's not just about pretty clothes or sex appeal or an easier life or whatever and truly BE one of us, then more power to you. My guess is you'd fast realize that aside from the hormones, we're no different than you are now. We're just humans with boobs and a better wardrobe. Do we FEEL like women? I'd bet most GGs, like me, wouldn't even know what that meant.

Either way, Fredrique asks a good question and each time I read a good question, I hope it makes people think. The less who suffer and struggle here (wives included) the better. :)

[Frédérique]

Either way, Fredrique asks a good question and each time I read a good question, I hope it makes people think.

I appreciate that! :)

Here’s another “good” question (I hope): How many MtF crossdressers here BELIEVE they are women? :thinking:

[PaulaQ]

. My guess is you'd fast realize that aside from the hormones, we're no different than you are now. We're just humans with boobs and a better wardrobe. Do we FEEL like women? I'd bet most GGs, like me, wouldn't even know what that meant.

A glass of chocolate milk and a bowl of chocolate ice cream share many of the same ingredients, in fact they are mostly the same. Yet the experience of the two is totally different, and why is that? Process and an extra couple of ingredients work magic.

A little kid who's sick doesn't usually want Daddy, she wants Mommy. There is a magic to women, and it makes me sad that many seem to lose touch with this. I don't blame you - society shoves a LOT of BS and obligations and expectations on women. To be sure, the magic of womanhood shouldn't determine every goddanged thing about your lives and destinies - which is how it's been viewed in the past, and certainly how you've been (and often still are) treated. (Maybe the word should be MISTREATED?)

But there is a magic in you as a woman, never lose that, however it manifests itself in you.

[mariehart]

Here’s another “good” question (I hope): How many MtF crossdressers here BELIEVE they are women? :thinking:If you believe you are a woman you're not a crossdresser. You may wear women's clothes but that's only a reflection of your inner self. You are TS. Conventionally most men who cross dress are just that men who cross dress for all kinds of reasons.



Until you've been born an actual female, no one here can understand the reality of our existence. No one. You can only assume the feelings you have are feminine but no genetic male will ever really know for sure. This fact alone means even the TS must have had a moment, even a small one, where they've needed to convince themselves that they are female. For how would any male ever really know? Seriously, how??That's exactly the problem and it often exercised my mind and I'm sure others too. How can I really be sure? I can't be TS because........and there follows a list of reasons. But in the end you can't escape it. You just know in the context of your life that you are essentially female. But this is a quite different life experience to someone born female. Imagine if you will that you had to become a man. Act like a man, dress like a man and very carefully ignore your instincts as a woman. It would be hard work indeed. I may not know what it is to be born female. But neither do I know what it is to be a man despite years of working on it.


If you can do this, in my mind it doesn't matter where it comes from. If you can convince yourself you're a woman - convince yourself it's not just about pretty clothes or sex appeal or an easier life or whatever and truly BE one of us, then more power to you. My guess is you'd fast realize that aside from the hormones, we're no different than you are now. We're just humans with boobs and a better wardrobe. Do we FEEL like women? I'd bet most GGs, like me, wouldn't even know what that meant. Agreed, it's the same for most people. Most people never have to consider their sexual identity. The know what they are and have no desire or interest in anything else. But if you do have to CONVINCE yourself you're a woman then you're probably not. I spent of a lot of time convincing myself I was anything but a woman. But as the saying goes 'When you have eliminated the impossible whatever remains however improbable must be the truth.' That's just my experience though.

[Veronica27]

I think both are true. Some people know they are TS (women) either early on or later, and they never waiver from this. The gender dysphoria is so pronounced that they hate having a man's body, they hate conforming to a man's gender role, and they hate presenting as a man. What's more, they cannot live as a man.

Others know they are TS (woman), but manage to walk a fine line for the sake of family and kids.

While others say that they are women yet they are satisfied living in a man's body for part of the time, in other words their gender dysphoria is not great enough to stop living as a man ... if they do have gender dysphoria.

But I also think that some people get such a kick out of presenting as a woman that they eventually want to be a woman (depending on their personal circumstances), and they can easily convince themselves they can be women. Perhaps some of these people stay stuck there for years and years.

Some people know that they are gender non-conforming ... they live outside the gender binary.

Let's not forget all the different definitions of "a woman". Some people think that it means dressing like one. Others mistake the euphoric feelings they get when they dress, for "feeling like a woman". Still others think that being a woman is being beautiful, and if one cannot be beautiful then it's not worth it. While TSs know who they are, they do live on the female side of the gender boundary, and being a woman is not mostly about clothes, it's not mostly about feeling euphoric, and it's not mostly about feeling sexy, and it's not all about being beautiful.

There is not one answer that fits all and really, all of this can ONLY be self-assessed and self-reported. And only the self can do this, unless a person is in denial. And the denial can go both ways.

You mention the definition of woman, but only describe what it is not, as opposed to what it is. Most dictionaries list the primary definition as being
1. the female human being (as opposed to the male human being),
2. an adult female person
Additional meanings refer to such things as status i.e as opposed to lady, and only lastly "feminine qualities" or "womanliness"

This, then leads to the definition of female.
1. of women: relating or belonging to women or girls
2. of the sex that produces offspring: relating or belonging to the sex that produces sex cells gametes that fuse with male sex cells during sexual reproduction
3. producing seeds: describes the part of a plant that produces the female sex cells, e.g. a carpel

Looking at it from a pragmatic viewpoint, you are a woman if you meet the physical requirements. How we feel or identify has nothing to do with whether or not we actually are a woman. Perhaps, the emphasis should be on the relative degree of our inner desire, wish or need to be a woman, rather than questioning whether or not we are a woman. The simple answer is that we are not. We can live as one if we choose, even going to the extreme of transition to enable this, but it does not change the biological fact that we are male. To convince yourself that you are a woman is to defy reality.

All the talk about our inner woman, or that our gender is female, is essentially meaningless as everybody's concepts of womanhood are different and completely subjective. Most women would have difficulty explaining what it is like to be a woman. TheMissus and docrobbysherry explained this well in their replies. When we crossdress, and do so as completely as we possibly can, we are portraying a woman, not being one or becoming one. It is primarily superficial and an illusion. You are able to experience what one small aspect of a woman's life might occasionally be like; her appearance. Are you experiencing this the same way with the same emotions and feelings as a woman? How can we answer that question? Again, mariehart's reply explains this in more detail from an actor's perspective.

Looking at it this way might sound dismissive of those who have real identity issues, but it is not. In fact, the attempt to attribute all cross sexual activity as being somehow an identity issue is what tends to marginalize their concerns.

One other interesting side issue that has emerged in this thread, is who is attempting to be more convincing; those who say they are women, or those who say they are men? Marleena appears to feel that it is the latter who are attempting to convince themselves, but I would counter with the argument that it is the former as evidenced by the greater number of threads discussing how womanly various members feel, especially when dressed. These threads are accepted as being the norm, whereas the threads that deny this are always in response to those who project their opinions as being universal (i.e.the umbrella approach) or are dismissive of those who feel otherwise. I cannot recall a thread where the OP was about how manly the writer was feeling that day.

Veronica

[Marleena]

One other interesting side issue that has emerged in this thread, is who is attempting to be more convincing; those who say they are women, or those who say they are men? Marleena appears to feel that it is the latter who are attempting to convince themselves, but I would counter with the argument that it is the former as evidenced by the greater number of threads discussing how womanly various members feel, especially when dressed. These threads are accepted as being the norm, whereas the threads that deny this are always in response to those who project their opinions as being universal (i.e.the umbrella approach) or are dismissive of those who feel otherwise. I cannot recall a thread where the OP was about how manly the writer was feeling that day.

Veronica

Yes, I just put a bit of a spin on convincing. I agree the MTF's here post mostly about wanting to feel, appear, emulate, whatever, women.:)

However some feel threatened by certain threads and that's where the reversal comes into play. If supporting the LGBT comes into play for example many will distance themselves from it because the "G' means gay. Or we have the people that are questioning their sexuality threads and we see the same people reminding us they are straight. Then some others will be offended by the term "transgender" and that's where we hear the "I'm a guy" responses.

If you're here long enough you can expect the same people to reply in a certain way to those types of threads. That's all I was saying and I guess it's more about feeling mislabeled about what they believe themselves to be. I don't really care, just pointing it out.:) It might make a good thread too.

[Angela Campbell]

Veronica, you made some good points, but unfortunately many are wrong. Gender and sex are not the same thing. Your definitions are ok for the sex of a person but you miss the point completely on gender.

Gender is in the head, sex is below the head.

[arbon]

Until you've been born an actual female, no one here can understand the reality of our existence. No one. You can only assume the feelings you have are feminine but no genetic male will ever really know for sure. This fact alone means even the TS must have had a moment, even a small one, where they've needed to convince themselves that they are female. For how would any male ever really know? Seriously, how??


Your right I will never know how any other person feels, or what I would have felt if I had been born with a female body and was raised as female. I'll never know.
But I do know that being a woman today feels right to me.

There was not so much a point of having to convince myself I was a woman, it was more a about letting go of trying to be a man.

It was not about the cloths or fantasies.

[DonnaT]

I am not, nor ever though of myself as being a woman. I am a man.

I am, however, transgender. Transgender being that unexplainable urge to crossdress when I was 6 (didn't do it) and again when I was 9 (did it and have been ever since).

[Veronica27]

Veronica, you made some good points, but unfortunately many are wrong. Gender and sex are not the same thing. Your definitions are ok for the sex of a person but you miss the point completely on gender.

Gender is in the head, sex is below the head.

I think we are on the same page, but you may have misread what I wrote. I was emphasizing that the word woman, by definition, is about the sex of the individual. No matter what is going on in our mind, that basic fact does not change. When threads such as this discuss a man either "being" or "becoming" a woman and expressing that by means of crossdressing, it is somewhat of a fallacy. I suggested that what we are experiencing is a desire, wish or need to be a woman, and not actually being a woman because of something called gender which is incapable of a finite definition. I gave my viewpoint on the difference between sex and gender in post #32 in the thread "Perhaps it is about the clothing"

Thanks for giving me an opportunity to clarify my response.

Veronica

[Lorileah]

I appreciate that! :)

Here’s another “good” question (I hope): How many MtF crossdressers here BELIEVE they are women? :thinking:

sort of would make them transsexuals then wouldn't it? If they make believe they are women that is another story. But who is to say that mentally they are not women? I know there are some who think of women is a stereotypic sense, but that is how the mind works

Fact is that no one can ever feel what it is like to be anyone else. remember the line in Beetlejuice? "That is what happens when you die...THAT is what happens when they die...it is all very personal." I try and never say "I know how you feel" because I don't know how YOU feel. I can empathize, I can sympathize, I can commiserate. I can only know what I feel and what in my life brought me to this point. I can share that I can try and have people understand so they can either follow my lead or avoid my mistakes.

And as far as saying "you will never be a woman" I say Bull. You will never be FEMALE that is genetics, but you can become a "woman". That is presentation. Exactly when does a girl become a woman? I know in horses when a filly becomes a mare but it is less distinct in humans. If one cannot become a woman, what does a TS become? Go ahead...try and answer that and not be insulting.

[bimini1]

I don't believe myself to be a female. If I did not to some degree want to make myself feel as 'womanly' as I possibly could even know how to try to feel, then I wouldn't even dress I guess.

No, but what I wouldn't give to know what it really felt like just ONCE. To have all the anatomical mechanics a girl is born with. Which is of course, impossible. But I do want to know what its like. I might not even like it but still would like to know. Alot of us might think at times this is what we really want. But once we got it, may see the grass not to be any greener on the other side. It can be a fluid feeling. Coming and going at times and stronger or less prevalent at others.

My wife will tell me sometimes you have NO IDEA what it's like, it ain't the glam and the glitz y'all think it is. You want that part of it but not the realness of it.

[heatherdress]

I am sorry. I opened this thread after work and the responses are long. My head hurts. I like the red wig or I think we need to be honest. What's the question again?

[ReineD]

And as far as saying "you will never be a woman" I say Bull. You will never be FEMALE that is genetics, but you can become a "woman". That is presentation.

Lori this is what I find confusing. Maybe it's because different people mean different things when they say "becoming a woman". I know that for a TS this means changing the male body to eventually have a female body, so "becoming" only in a physical sense, like having corrective surgery (which is actually what it is). Obviously many CDers believe that the clothes (the presentation) is what transforms a man into a woman. But to me, this is just appearance. It doesn't change gender.

My basic belief is that no one ever "becomes" a woman. MtF TSs are already born AS a woman internally, and the rest is realizing it and then taking steps to change the body to match the internal self.

When someone says they are becoming a woman, it implies they are a man. And I don't think that a person can change gender in their lifetime.

In what way did you mean "becoming a woman"?

[TheMissus]

I think I understood Lori with that one. I think anyone can 'become' a woman as gender is a fairly subjective concept so anyone can take their personal idea of 'womanhood' and become that if they wish. This might mean appearance for some while for others it's a deep feeling inside them that drives them to surgery etc. Given I can't know how they feel I have to assume what they experience is very real to them.

But Lori is also right that no one here can become female. That takes having the XX chromosome and as far as I'm aware changing this isn't possible yet. So the true 'feminine' experience, so to speak, will never be fully possible for those with the XY chromosome and this is where we're left taking each others word over what being a 'woman' means. Funny, but I'd bet women themselves know less what this means than the members here, lol.

That said, going back to the original question, I also think humans can convince themselves of anything, given enough time and motivation, and it wouldn't be unexpected that some CD could lead themselves to TS despite never having a deep need in earlier life. I don't think this is a problem unless they regret it later. But I'd also assume this scenario is rare?

[DebbieL]

I've known I was transsexual LONG before I knew what transsexual was. I didn't like playing with boys by the time I was 2. I preferred to play with girls, and we did the things girls did, until I was about 6 1/2. Then they told me I COULDN'T be a girl, I COULDN'T play with the girls anymore, and that I HAD to play with the boys. Predictably, that didn't go well, and after getting stoned (pelted with rocks ranging from golf-ball to tennis ball size) and clubbed (beat with sticks 2-3 inches in diameter), I pretty much refused to play with boys. I refused to participate at school. I could read well above my grade level, but refused to read aloud.

I still wanted to be a girl, but I also had to survive. When I was 10, by dad tried to give me the "birds & bees" talk, telling me about puberty and all the changes that would take place. To me, turning into a man was like turning into a monster, like a werewolf. My one hope was that, according to Dad, other boys had testes, and I didn't. Dad drew a picture, explaining that mine were still up inside me, like ovaries. That gave me hope!

When the testes finally dropped down, I was devastated, and everything I could to prevent them from turning me into a monster. I would take baths in water so hot it caused second degree burns in hope of "poaching" them, like hard boiled eggs. I tried crushing them with a sledge-hammer and a 2x4. I tied them in rubber bands to strangle them. I tried other things I won't even try to describe here. I'd told both my parents, a psychologist, a doctor, and my grandmother that I wanted to be a girl, that I hated being a boy and never wanted to be a man. The refused to even discuss it. My dad DID tell me that he had taken a test and was told that he was 75% female, and I told him "I bet I'm at least 90%".

Puberty hit anyway, and I was in hell. I wanted to die. I kept hoping that I could still become a girl somehow. As I started growing hair, I became more despondent. When I was 14, I was ordered to audition for the choir. As a child, I sang soprano, and hoped maybe I could sing alto. She started me at about Middle C and started working her way down. I had no trouble matching the pitches for two octaves. By the time I got to the low B, it sounded more like a bad case of gas than singing. She smiled and said "WOW, you have the most amazing voice I've ever heard in a boy your age". She meant it to be a compliment, but to me, it was like I had been sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole.

I immediately became suicidal, getting hooked up with drug users, drinking, smoking, using recreational drugs. I would use until I "blacked out", often losing track of 4-8 hours at a time. Often, I would be regaled by funny stories of the things I had done during these blackouts. Often, they were very dangerous, like insulting bikers in a biker bar, flirting with cowboys, or kissing the girl standing next to the shortest guy. Sometimes I would wake up with bruises. The only consolation was that I would be turning 16 before my other classmates, and would be among the first to drive. That was until a neurologist misdiagnosed my drug detox as epilepsy. I would eventually be the LAST to drive, when I was almost 18 years old.

My parents knew I was suicidal, but even for them, it was hard to tell how much was the drugs, how much was not being able to drive, and how much was gender dysphoria. My only hint that they knew or even thought about it was when I had red blood in my stool. Mom asked my dad "Do you think he's having a period?", and Dad said "no, that would be darker". Apparently I had HAD a few "periods" already, (blood coming out of my stools), but after a sigmoidoscopy in front of about 25 interns, they found a fissure. The did do some interesting exploring, and did mention some anomalies. Given the number of OTHER medical procedures I had endured without anesthetic, this one was almost enjoyable.

I was still transsexual, and I knew it, but I figured it was "too late". Meanwhile, two of my cousins, including one who had tried to kiss me on the lips, had killed themselves. The had gotten around the mortal sin of suicide by doing something irreversible that gave them enough time to repent and be forgiven before they lost consciousness and then died. This was beginning to look more and more attractive, and I tried harder and harder to have an "accidental overdose". A typical "party" for me, was a pint of brandy, 2 quarts of wine, 1/2 oz of pot, 2 antihistamines, and 3 10 milligram Valium (for my epilepsy). THEN I'd pop any kind of downers I could find in the pill bowl (other kids at the party would bring pills of whatever, and pour them into a big bowl).

What I didn't know is that I had a genetic trait that caused my body to be able to detox itself from almost any kind of toxic substance. The one consolation was that I DID get the release of black-outs. My antics became more and more interesting, and it became apparent to me that when Rex was really loaded, he would "go to sleep" and Debbie would come out to play.

Sometimes, as Debbie, I was a ****, flirting shamelessly with boys and girls, especially girls who were dressed the way I wanted to be dressed. Often I'd end up in the coat room with my head between someone's legs, usually female, or would have fallen asleep on my knees with my head resting on the bed. I often wondered what would happen if I went to a party dressed and got that loaded. Would I be going after guys?

I tried playing with a couple of guys, thinking maybe this would let me address my gender conflict. It back-fired. I not only did NOT enjoy myself, I got sick, and being touched down there was PAINFUL! I had many gay friends, and they knew SOMETHING was up, but they didn't know anything about transsexuals, and I had learned the hard way that telling ANYONE could start the whole cycle of beatings, harassment, and terror, all over again, so I guarded my secret like I was an undercover spy in enemy territory.

By 21, my drinking and drugs had taken their toll, and I ended up in a psychiatric ward. I went to group therapy daily for 3 months, 6 hours a day, and ended up trying to kill myself several times. Once, I was ready to do a back-flip into I-25 in front of a Semi. Had I not been wearing my brother's watch, I would probably have done it. I tried to OD a few more times. Tried walking in front of traffic a few times. Then, when my car broke down, and I had to walk 10 miles through some rough neighborhoods, I started eating pieces of broken glass from the street, broken beer bottles, soda bottles, or shatterproof glass. Having taken pills my whole life I could even swallow a Kosher Dill Pickle whole (Only did it once though, wouldn't want to do it again). Swallowing a few pieces every block, washing it down with beer. After midnight, I switched to Dr Pepper to wash them down. When I finally got home, I ground up several shards I had put in my pocket, mixed them with a large snifter of wine (port i believe), and slammed that down - it was only a little harder to swallow. I figure I had at least 1/4 lb of ground glass by then. I went to sleep assuming that I would never wake up.

When I woke up the next day, I was pissed. I decided not to tell anybody, and didn't for 4 days. When I finally let it slip, I was pulled into a private session with 2 therapists, a psychologist, and a psychiatrist. When they asked what was going on, what was I not talking about that would make me want to kill myself, I told them that I wanted to be a girl! The refused to even allow me to speak of it any further. I was told that it was not an appropriate subject for group therapy, and that I would need to just have to accept being a man. This was the FIRST TIME in 10 years that I had told anyone other than my mother, and the last time I had discussed it with her was 6 years earlier. They had the keys to my condition, and refused to even discuss it with me.

I guess it was at about that point that I tried to accept that I would just have to settle for being a cross-dresser. I could dress up at home, have it be my little secret, and do my best to muddle through life as best as I could. I started dressing up every night. Miraculously, my mental health started to improve, and 3 months later I was discharged. I had also quit the drugs and alcohol at the same time. The combination of the two seemed to have silenced the girl screaming to get out, but she was always there, sabotaging dates, making comments on how nice the women's outfits were, how many female friends I had, and how few male friends I had. I had a few minor relapses, each lasting only a few minutes, where I picked up, but there were always horrible consequences. Things like getting robbed at gunpoint, losing a job, or getting into an accident, usually a week or so after the actual using event. It was like God was trying to tell me "Don't do that anymore". For about 2 years I was known as the "90 day wonder", I'd get 90 days without any trouble at all, but usually just before 6 months, I'd pick up again, for that one minor slip. Usually a 3 oz glass of champagne, a 12 oz can of beer, or a single toke off a joint. Then the sh*t would hit the fan, and I'd start racking up another almost 6 months.

I finally took my last drink in May of 1980, but by then I knew I needed to actually WORK the steps. I knew that meant I would have to tell a sponsor about wanting to be a girl, and I was willing to do that.

I moved in with a girl after I got past my 6 month point, and hoped I could give up the dressing now that I was going to have a live-in lover. I'd only had 2 partners before that, each 18 months apart, and the first was a lesbian relationship, and the second involved a lot of different kinks but ended when she found out that I wanted to dress up. I threw out all my clothes and moved in with L.

Three weeks later, I realized it wasn't working, and told her I was a cross-dresser. She told me she could accept doing it privately, in the apartment, but didn't want me going out in public. Obviously I wasn't going to tell her that I REALLY wanted to transition, but at that time I didn't think that transition was possible.

For the next 8 years, I tried to convince myself that I could be content with just being a cross-dresser. I stopped trying to overtly kill myself, but I smoked like a chimney, ate terribly, and barely slept. I'd go to meetings to maintain some level of sanity, and went through 4 sponsors, telling each about the gender issues, and getting a sympathetic ear and little else.

In 1988, I guy asked me to sponsor him. I took him through the steps, and after seeing how well he did, I asked him to take me through a set of steps as my sponsor. When I showed him the inventory, with so many of the details included here, and even more, he seemed to realize that this was the ROOT of my issues. He asked me to do another inventory, but I could only write when I was dressed. He also asked me to give the girl a name. I thought about using "Rekkie", a nickname that my best friend used because he couldn't make the "X" sound, also used by my wife to indicate that she wanted to play with me sexually. I realized that it was too close, and since I already had an unusual name, an unusual femme name would make it clear that I was talking about myself. I thought about a more common name, one used by a number of women I liked a lot. It came down to "Cathy" or "Debbie", and I opted for Debbie.

The inventory written by Debbie was VERY different! I began to see how much conflict there was. I could see how dishonest and deceptive I was. I could see that I could never let anyone know the real me. I could see how I had turned used my male identity to hide my true self. It was like Clark Kent and Superman (or in this case, Wonder Woman), and "Rex" was like Clark Kent, a clumsy, shy, and accidental clown, someone you laughed AT rather than with. I'd learned to deflect any REAL conversations about REAL feelings, wants, needs, desires, or accomplishments, by becoming so intellectual that I was a "Know it All". My father used to call me "Mr Know-it-All" by the time I was 8. I spent most of my free time, including time in hospital beds (admitted over 60 times with asthma) reading non-fiction books because I hated books about boys and books about girls made me feel really sad and lonely.

My sponsor suggested that I come to some meetings as Debbie. I went to a Halloween dance, then they were having a Halloween costume contest at work, so I wore the same costume there. It was a maid's uniform, made out of black bridal satin, that I had made myself. That night, I wore a regular street outfit, skirt, heels, and blouse, to an AA meeting. The change in my personality was amazing. I had danced more at the dance, I shared more "from the heart" in that meeting than I ever had, and at work, I felt free for the first time in my entire life. It was like I had been given a "day pass" from my life with no parole sentence.

Of course, my wife was less than thrilled, and after about 18 months of no sex, getting cutting remarks, and hearing how she told all the women at a Lingerie party that her least favorite chore was sex with me, even worse than cleaning the bathroom floor around the toilet, we started couple's counseling. It took about 2 weeks for him to realize that I wasn't just a cross-dresser, I was a transsexual. After a few private sessions to confirm his diagnosis, including confirmation of my numerous suicide attempts as a teenager, and some sessions with my wife to confirm that the was NOT bisexual, he hit us with the cold hard truth.

He said "Rex is a transsexual. His mind is female, and his body is barely male. If he doesn't transition, he will probably kill himself. Every time he tried to kill Debbie, Debbie tried to kill him. Eventually, she will succeed". I remember thinking at the time "WHY COULDN'T THEY FIGURE THIS OUT 20 YEARS AGO!!". I was 33 years old. He also explained that Leslie was NOT a bisexual and wouldn't accept Debbie as a lover. We could be roommates and raise the kids together, but she'd probably want a lover on the side. Strangely, I was OK with that. I knew she had suffered, and I wanted her to be happy too. Eventually we would be divorced, but it was an act of love for both of us.

The couple's counselor sent me to a gender therapist. He diagnosed me with "battered spouse syndrome" (an accurate diagnosis) for insurance purposes, but he made it clear that we were going to address the transsexual issue head on. He gave me homework assignments, telling me to go different places as Debbie. He told me to dress as often as I could. He told me to get out as Debbie as much as I could. This was part of "Real Life Experience". He told me that once I was living "128" - meaning every hour but the hours at work - as Debbie, he would recommend me for hormones. The voice was a struggle for me, but it only took a few months to reach "128".

What was clear to EVERYBODY, including me, as they saw me out as Debbie more and more, was that I was happier, healthier, more authentic, more honest, more able to share from the heart. I had people coming out of the woodwork asking me to sponsor them. At one point I was taking 6-8 people at a time through the steps, going to coffee together. When they completed a set, I'd have them sponsor someone, having me sit with them and giving them support and coaching. I did have to move to Denver, which was more friendly to transsexuals and made it easier to find work that would cover child support.

Quite simply, I had EXISTED, struggling to settle as a cross-dresser. I had staved off the suicidal urges by under-dressing, fantasy, semi-annual sex with my wife, and several women friends.

It would be another 20 years before I would finally re-start transition, and eventually start hormones. Each time I tried to abort the transition, I would become depressed, irritable, and "Mr Know-it-All". I would even become suicidal. There was a 6 month period when I was told "Be Debbie in a Suit" I had to put the wardrobe in storage, but was encouraged to keep Debbie's personality. Not only did I break all records, I supported the others in my group and several of us broke records, and the class broke a record for having the highest success rate ever. However, when I had to make verbal presentations to groups, it became obvious that I could not come of as being authentic as Rex. The fundamental lie, the elephant in the room, was that I was trying to pretend to be a man in a suit, when it was the woman who was doing the talking. It almost looked like a "Drag Show in Reverse". Very bizarre.

I have observed that there seem to be several transsexuals on this site who have tried to CONVINCE THEMSELVES THAT THEY ARE ONLY CROSS-DRESSERS! The real cross-dressers ENJOY BEING MEN and would never want to give up the privileges of being a man.

Transsexuals have usually wanted to be girls for a long time, at latest in their early teens (onset of puberty?).
They often struggle to make it in life as men.
They seem to be more needy of their wife's acceptance of their dressing.
They seem to become depressed, even dysfunctional when forced to stop dressing.
They often talk about wanting to be accepted as female.
They tend to be less confrontational, more eager to work out a solution that supports everybody.
They tend to be very "Nice" - rarely bursting out in anger, when they do, the rage quickly subsides, and they feel shame and guilt for getting upset.
They tend to be "Eager to please" - especially their wives and children.

Many of these traits are actually medical conditions caused by having a "Female Brain".
The traits of such a brain don't change - ever. No amount of testosterone, psychiatry, therapy, incentives, or medications could change their brain composition, any more than you could grow a 6th finger.

The struggle that many of us who are transgender but were betrayed by our bodies at puberty have to struggle with, is thinking that we have to accept that we have a body that seems impossible to turn into a girl's body. When you're 6 foot tall, have dark thick hair on your face, arms, legs, and so on, have a big barrel chest, it's going to take A LOT of surgery to become an even moderately pretty woman.

Often, cross-dressing provides symptomatic relief. But the self-destructive nature may manifest itself in smoking, drinking, overeating, and over-working.

The big difference between a young transsexual stuck in a boy's body and and old transsexual trapped in a man's body - is that the older transsexual doesn't have to work too hard to leave a heart condition untreated, or a blood pressure problem ignored, or even type 2 diabetes - and when the heart attack or stroke hits, they just have to make sure that nobody calls 911 before it's too late to save them.

[Tina_gm]

I tried very very hard to convince myself that I was only a masculine male. I tried to convince myself that if I tried hard enough I could get rid of any feminine desires. I think that male and female are genetic.... you can be a womanly or a girly, regardless of what you are born as genetically, and not always have to be that way all the time. You can be both. Personally, I like to use masculine and feminine. I know some very masculine women, a couple that I can say that I am more feminine than. And then of course there are feminine men. And, people that carry both masculine and feminine traits. Actually all of us carry both to some degree. What I believe we consider cisgender people are ones who have a majority of either masculinity or femininity that matches the gender they are born as.

I can't say that I know what it feels like to be a woman, but I do know what it feel like to be feminine.

[sometimes_miss]

When I was in my teens, I was almost sure that I was really supposed to be a girl; everything up to that point suggested it to me, I only felt normal in girls clothes, I hated fighting and any real contact sports, and wanted love way more than I wanted sex. I was completely convinced that I was TS, even though I had no sexual attraction to males at all, and I loved feeling pretty. So, I think I was all of 14 when I discovered that sexual identity and sexual orientation were completely separate things, many years before I ever read about it in books. Figuring out why I was not a TS female, on the other hand, took decades. The clinker was, that knowing why and how you're screwed up doesn't stop you from continuing to be screwed up; I think that's why psychiatrists and psychologists are said to have a higher suicide rate than other medical professionals.

[Angela Campbell]

My basic belief is that no one ever "becomes" a woman. MtF TSs are already born AS a woman internally, and the rest is realizing it and then taking steps to change the body to match the internal self.

There is a lot more to it than just changing the body. I wish it were that easy. It also includes trying to undo the socialization of all the years of being expected to behave as a man or a boy. Internally yes a true mtf TS is a woman but many times knows not how to be one. Looking like one is easy. (relatively speaking) Unlearning socializations not so much. The years of the testosterone effects the behaviors and emotions to such a great extent. It is hard to see until you change from a testosterone based body to an estrogen based body. This helps a lot but still there is so much that is learned behavior that has to be wiped out and replaced with a different way of doing and thinking things.

Over the years a lot of damage has been done and this is what needs to be fixed. Money and time can easily change the appearance. For some more money and time than for others but with enough of both it can be done. Many focus on the appearance - facial, breasts and SRS, but even with this, one would only be halfway there.

[Michelle789]

Gender identity is a sense of who you really are, and may very well be accompanied with (in the case of MTF) a female perspective of the world, and female behavior or mannerisms. Many MTF TS and gender non-conforming males are taught to repress their female identity, female perspective of the world, and female behavior or mannerisms. Many may act over-masculinely, some may act masculinely with holes and the feminine shines through, or others may act mainly femininely. The cruel truth is the feminine identity/traits/behaviors are literally beaten out of us because society expects us to be men.

Gender identity is not based on facts on how you act, what profession you're in, how you carry on a conversation, how you interact with people or spend time alone. It's how you feel on the inside and want to be treated by others and function in society, and often but not always hating the male body (MTF TS). There's a huge difference between being the real you, and putting up a facade that the world expects you to maintain.

Gender issues are so complicated and may take years or decades to figure out, some may never figure it out, some may change mind back and forth.

Here is the clinical definition of gender dysphoria (I'm not sure if the DSM-V has gone official)
http://psychcentral.com/disorders/gender-dysphoria-symptoms/

It's not black and white.


My wife will tell me sometimes you have NO IDEA what it's like, it ain't the glam and the glitz y'all think it is. You want that part of it but not the realness of it.

Everyone thinks the grass is greener on the other side. Remind your wife of all the men, not women, who died, had body parts amputated, or suffered severe psychological trauma, in Vietnam and other past wars, many who were drafted and forced against their own will. When was the last time women were drafted into war? Never, outside of Israel maybe?

Maybe your wife is an FTM TS in denial, j/k.

I really get sick and tired of the gender wars and lack of acceptance of those who are CD, TG, TS, genderqueer, pangender, in betweeners, non-conforming, and others. The truth is both men and women think the grass is greener on the other side, even while being cis-gendered and not CD/TG/TS in any way. I suppose for CD/TG/TS or other non-conformers/gender variants the "grass is greener on the other side" could be more severe.

ReineD - I'm really proud of you and a delighted to hear a GG who is open to understanding and accepting CD, TG, TS, and other gender variants. :)

Question, does anyone know if the DSM-V is now official, or when it's supposed to go live? Thanks,

[mariehart]

Debbie's post was tough to read and I'm glad I never had it that bad. Growing up in that generation little was known about transgender issues. You think things are bad now but back then it was much worse. If I was young now I would probably transition. Certainly I would be living as a woman in my twenties if not already transitioning. A couple of things hit home with me.


Transsexuals have usually wanted to be girls for a long time, at latest in their early teens (onset of puberty?).
They often struggle to make it in life as men.
They seem to be more needy of their wife's acceptance of their dressing.
They seem to become depressed, even dysfunctional when forced to stop dressing.
They often talk about wanting to be accepted as female.
They tend to be less confrontational, more eager to work out a solution that supports everybody.
They tend to be very "Nice" - rarely bursting out in anger, when they do, the rage quickly subsides, and they feel shame and guilt for getting upset.
They tend to be "Eager to please" - especially their wives and children.
I tick all those boxes. No doubt about it.


The big difference between a young transsexual stuck in a boy's body and and old transsexual trapped in a man's body - is that the older transsexual doesn't have to work too hard to leave a heart condition untreated, or a blood pressure problem ignored, or even type 2 diabetes - and when the heart attack or stroke hits, they just have to make sure that nobody calls 911 before it's too late to save them. Tick those boxes too, on three pills a day to stave off those problems. I only have to stop taking them and my life expectancy suddenly shortens. The one thing or rather the two things that keep me going are my two little sons. But even so I've come close to walking into the sea a couple of times. I even wrote a note to my wife apologising. But I drank too much and fell asleep on the couch. I have been drinking too much lately despite having been almost teetotal until I was forty. Which was around the time I realised I was TS not a CD. My Doctor thinks I'm an alcoholic thanks to some blood tests he had done and wants me to go for counselling. I don't for the simple reason that the counsellor will try to get to the root cause of the drinking. I don't want to go there.

Who knows where it ends.

[PaulaQ]

I am largely skeptical about this whole "talking yourself into being a woman" deal. I guess people can fantasize about anything - but that fantasy has to come from someplace I think, and there may well be an underlying reality that's too hard to accept and deal with - but as a fantasy it's "OK".

One of the problems with this idea is that there is no objective way to differentiate between a real TS, who has no choice, and someone who's fantasizing. I think telling a TS that they are just a CD with a fantasy can be extraordinarily dangerous. (Please feel free to PM me if you'd like details of my personal experiences with this.) It also leads many to the logical conclusion that all of us have a choice.

I just don't think you can have it both ways. It either is a choice, or it isn't. I'm certain this isn't a choice for me. I ****ing hate what it's doing to my life. I hate being trapped in a body that I can barely tolerate. I ****ing hate myself. I'm so tired of these feelings. Why, in God's name, would I choose something like this? Why would I choose to completely tear apart my life, wreck my wife's happiness, change EVERYTHING, only to turn into something that's neither man nor woman, but something else - and isn't accepted by many as anything, in any case. In the end, many of the GG's even on this forum aren't going to accept that I'm a real woman (whatever in the **** that means - they don't even know!) and sadly, the truth is, they'll be right. I'll be something else altogether.

I can only hope that what I'm becoming will be female enough to fool my brain into easing the intense agony I'm experiencing now, and that I've lived with in the background for my entire life. If not, well, I guess there's always oblivion.

So for those who insist on calling this a fantasy - because hey, how do we really know I'm a TS - you only have my word to go on - can we at least agree that mine is a pretty unappealing fantasy?

[Michelle789]

This debate is largely the same question as "which came first, the chicken or the egg?"

Is it that I fantasize about being a woman so much that I would convince myself that I'm actually a woman?
Or, is it that I have an underlying female identity that causes me to fantasize about being a woman?

What is this underlying female identity? Is it my soul having been female in many past lives? Is my brain a female brain? Maybe my brain is somewhere in between male and female? Maybe there's some unknown mechanism at work here.

It gets even more complex because there are gender identities aside from male and female...in betweeners, both, neither. Could some CD, who identify strictly as male, be TS in denial, or some other gender in denial, maybe some are, and others are just strictly CD.

Could an "in betweener" be TS woman in denial? Some may be, some may be legitimately 50% male 50% female or some other in between combination.

I do agree that telling a TS that they're a just CD with a fantasy is dangerous. That's why we have therapists. Every one of us learns new things along the road, and our understanding of ourselves as being a CD, TS woman, gender fluid, both male & female, is subject to change as more is revealed about ourselves, or that bell just rings one day and makes it clear.

Some people say that 95% of CDs identify as straight male, and others say 95% of CDs are TS in denial. The truth lies somewhere in the middle, and I can't say what the % are.

A few more questions?

1-Why could two or more boys raised in the same family, born within a few years apart, had same upbringing, values, environment, and one grow up to be a CD or TS or gender variant or gay or bisexual? And the other boy(s) a typical straight male with absolutely no desire to CD, nor to live as a woman and transition, and no desire to have sex with men--and they fully accept everything that comes along with the male role and it feels comfortable to them?

2-If all men have the pressure to conform to expected male behavior and thinking, then why do the vast majority of men have no desire to wear women's clothes even privately, yet some of us will CD at least privately? Keep in mind even though many of CD fear getting caught, we still do it any ways.

3-If all men have the pressure to conform to expected male behavior and thinking, then why do the vast majority of men have no desire or fantasy to be a woman, yet some of us do have a desire or fantasy to be a woman?

4-If all men have the pressure to conform to expected male behavior and thinking, then why do most men fear the idea of being reincarnated as a woman, and similarly would never want to be told they were a woman in a past life? Yet some of us are ok with or even would prefer to be reincarnated as a woman in the next life, and we would be perfectly fine being told we were women in past lives?

5-If all men have the pressure to conform to expected male behavior and thinking, then why are most men 100% certain of their male gender identity, even if they occasionally think the grass is greener on the other side? Yet some of us question our gender identity? Why would someone even bother questioning their gender or fantasize about being a woman, if there wasn't some bit of truth to it?

[Marleena]

I don't see this thread as having anything to do with GG's or TS women. Both are women. One only has to do some research to come to this conclusion.

I see it as a CD thinking vs. TG thinking. Freddy in this case case can't convince himself he is a woman. The thread is based on a TG person convincing them self they are a woman (which could also be fantasy). I could be wrong but that's the way I see it.

[Tara Power]

I don't think thats the point for me really. I have no intentions of convincing myself I am a woman, all I want is to feel like the woman I am on the inside, bring her to the outside and for other people to be convinced that I am a woman rather than a fella in a skirt. But then I don't want people to be convinced that I am a woman, that takes largely away from the point. I'd rather people not notice I am anything other than what I project Tara to be.

And if people do look at me, its because of how good I look and are checking out my style, not checking me out for any 'tells'. I don't need convincing, I know who I am.

x

[NathalieX66]

I've convinced myself that my X and Y chromosomes, or my testosterone/ estrogen hormone balance don't define who I really am as a person. ....and no I really didn't convince myself of anything, it just is.

I am just simply me.

[Frédérique]

I appreciate all of the lengthy, well thought-out responses, especially the one by DebbieL. Her post makes MY things look short!:eek:


Gender and sex are not the same thing. Your definitions are ok for the sex of a person but you miss the point completely on gender. Gender is in the head, sex is below the head.

If transgender is going to be adopted as a blanket term for all types of crossdressers, then you really should look at the recent proliferation of “gender” over “sex” as a similar phenomenon. People are queasy about using the word SEX, period, so they soften the effect by using gender in its place, as a euphemism. Case in point, you specify that sex is “below the head,” which is a soft way of saying “below the waist,” so you yourself would rather not get into what the word sex denotes…

For all practical intents and purposes, sex and gender is the same thing, no matter how you slice it, what spin you put on it, or what you wish to believe. Any discussion on this site will inevitably veer over into sexual territory, whether you want it to or not, and, if you ask me, the term “gender” just doesn’t cut the proverbial mustard. Even if I say I like wearing women’s clothing, as I have done on several occasions, somebody “in the know” will point out that my predilection for tactile splendor has sexual overtones. They never say I’m suffering from some kind of gender disorder, even though my willful crossdressing is a highly cerebral exercise…

As Marleena would say, "I could be wrong but that's the way I see it." :hmph: Speaking of Marleena:


I see it as a CD thinking vs. TG thinking. Freddy in this case case can't convince himself he is a woman. The thread is based on a TG person convincing them self they are a woman (which could also be fantasy).

Yes, that’s it exactly. Believing you’re a woman, and then convincing yourself of this fact (which may be a fantasy, as you have pointed out), is a bit beyond what I set out to do back in the day. Oh, it’s nice to think of yourself as a woman, and disappear into a pink fog, but, eventually, the fog will burn off and you’re still a male. I think you CAN convince yourself that you’re a woman, if you put your mind to it, and live your live that way. I can imagine people trying to do that, or actually doing it, but, for me at least, it is beyond my personal level of conviction. As I stated in the OP, I see this more as a kind of reinvention, not being overly pleased with yourself as-is, and setting out to change the scenery, perhaps forever. Reinvention is a noble enterprise, and it takes a lot of courage, as well as a LOT of convincing…
:straightface:

[sometimes_miss]

This debate is largely the same question as "which came first, the chicken or the egg?"
Well, a different bird can lay an egg with genetic mutations that produce the chicken. So, the egg came first, which became the first genuine chicken.
Now then. hope I get this right with all the quotes.

Is it that I fantasize about being a woman so much that I would convince myself that I'm actually a woman?
Yes that is possible.

Or, is it that I have an underlying female identity that causes me to fantasize about being a woman?
Also possible.

What is this underlying female identity? Is it my soul having been female in many past lives?
There is little evidence of reincarnation. I do have some theories as to why some people have memories of other past lives, which I will get into later.

Is my brain a female brain? Maybe my brain is somewhere in between male and female? Maybe there's some unknown mechanism at work here.
While it has been discovered that males and females USUALLY have particular differences in brain physiology, anatomy and thoughts stimulate different sexes in different ways, there are also individuals who have brains that exhibit all the traits of the opposite sex but still think, feel and behave as the gender of their physical sex, so there's something else that can cause it as well. Remember, not everything has only one cause.

It gets even more complex because there are gender identities aside from male and female...in betweeners, both, neither. Could some CD, who identify strictly as male, be TS in denial, or some other gender in denial, maybe some are, and others are just strictly CD. Could an "in betweener" be TS woman in denial? Some may be, some may be legitimately 50% male 50% female or some other in between combination.
Yes to all the above.

I do agree that telling a TS that they're a just CD with a fantasy is dangerous. That's why we have therapists. Every one of us learns new things along the road, and our understanding of ourselves as being a CD, TS woman, gender fluid, both male & female, is subject to change as more is revealed about ourselves, or that bell just rings one day and makes it clear.
However, perhaps the TS has not considered that being CD and having fantasies was a potential possibility. Anything that considers alternate possibilities is food for thought.

Some people say that 95% of CDs identify as straight male, and others say 95% of CDs are TS in denial. The truth lies somewhere in the middle, and I can't say what the % are.
No one can. So many are in the closet that there's no way to count, because whatever inspires those to come out could also cause other feelings as well.

1-Why could two or more boys raised in the same family, born within a few years apart, had same upbringing, values, environment, and one grow up to be a CD or TS or gender variant or gay or bisexual? And the other boy(s) a typical straight male with absolutely no desire to CD, nor to live as a woman and transition, and no desire to have sex with men--and they fully accept everything that comes along with the male role and it feels comfortable to them?
Single changes in dna, or how and when a gene is expressed can lead to huge changes in the specimen. We are also the sum of our experiences, so that will affect the individuals as well. Extreme trauma, physical or emotional, can cause long term personality changes, so why wouldn't it be possible for it to affect sexual orientation and/or gender identity? I believe this is possible, even though it will tremendously upset the whole 'I was born this way' apple cart.

2-If all men have the pressure to conform to expected male behavior and thinking, then why do the vast majority of men have no desire to wear women's clothes even privately, yet some of us will CD at least privately? Keep in mind even though many of CD fear getting caught, we still do it any ways.
For most men, there is no pressure to 'conform' to expected male behavior and thinking; they do it naturally. It's not 'conforming'; it's what they are. We tend to do what makes us feel better. Remember, every guy masturbates even though he doesn't want to be caught doing it.

3-If all men have the pressure to conform to expected male behavior and thinking, then why do the vast majority of men have no desire or fantasy to be a woman, yet some of us do have a desire or fantasy to be a woman?
Again, for most men it's not a pressure to conform, it's what they already are; they don't want or need to feel in the female role, so there's no fantasy for it. For TS, TG, CD, there IS a reason for our minds to use the fantasy.

4-If all men have the pressure to conform to expected male behavior and thinking, then why do most men fear the idea of being reincarnated as a woman, and similarly would never want to be told they were a woman in a past life?
One, because they do not want the female role in life, and two, there is a huge stigma attached to openly accepting ANYTHING feminine about ourselves publicly. As seen with crossdressing, any display of feminine behavior can completely destroy women's desire for us, even if everything else points to us as being normally male; it only takes one thing to kill sexual desire. And no man wants to risk that, which is one reason so many of us are deep in the closet.

Yet some of us are ok with or even would prefer to be reincarnated as a woman in the next life, and we would be perfectly fine being told we were women in past lives?
One possibility is that some of us really believe that being a woman is easier than being a man, so despite either being acceptable, we'd prefer being female.
The past lives thing also alleviates the responsibility of making the choice; clearly, it was 'fate' that did it, and we did not choose to be female, so no one can claim we wanted that. After all, even as little boys, we are told that being girly in any way is the worst possible thing we can ever be. Even as adults, if you're in the armed forces, being called a lady is considered the worst possible insult that a man can be subject to. This is well known, and another reason why so many of us keep our gender bending such a secret.

If all men have the pressure to conform to expected male behavior and thinking, then why are most men 100% certain of their male gender identity, even if they occasionally think the grass is greener on the other side?
They don't. Most men have no desire to be female, and clearly don't see any distinct advantages to being a woman.

Yet some of us question our gender identity? Why would someone even bother questioning their gender or fantasize about being a woman, if there wasn't some bit of truth to it?
Because some people are just naturally inquisitive; we want to know the possibilities of everything. Others simply don't care. And others fantasize about all kinds of things, not just what it's like being a woman, but being a bird, a dog, etc.. When I was a kid alone on vacation, a neighbor had a big lab that was my almost daily companion. I wondered what it was like to be that dog. Doesn't mean I was one either in the past or currently.
And, external experiences can make you question your gender identity. Suppose when you're a very young boy, someone tells you that you were really supposed to be a girl, but god made a mistake? Now, you will begin to question if there's any truth to it, whether or not there actually is. And suppose you incorrectly interpret past experiences to support that person's implication, because, well, he's much older and smarter than you are, and he gives you a reason for his theory? Then maybe you will also incorrectly interpret future experiences to support his theory as well. (been there, done that).

Reincarnation. OK. Energy cannot be created or destroyed, that we know. We also know that radio waves, once generated, continue through space forever. Every thought has a corresponding electrical current, which is an energy wave. You can measure it with an eeg machine. So now, suppose those waves are earth bound, maybe by gravity or something else we haven't figured out yet. Like radio waves, those waves continue forever, although much weaker by comparison. Now suppose your eeg waves and the eeg waves from a person from 200 years ago are virtually identical; the receptors in your brain may pick up on the waves the other person's body generated 200 years ago. You may 'receive' memory thoughts or even think you see things that other person did 200 years ago. Which would also explain seeing and/or hearing 'ghosts' that other people do not see, and you may also think you feel things that person felt as well, as all nerve impulses have an electrical component as well. So, the next time you think you feel like you're body is female, maybe that's what you are experiencing; then, the conflict between current feelings and those you've gotten from the past will result in confusion in your brain.
JMHO.

[mariehart]

Actually Fredirque's last post has highlighted for me perfectly why I now realise there is a huge gulf between crossdressers and transsexuals. On the face of it, we have a lot in common. In reality there is little or no cross reference.

I thank him for that. Italics are deliberate. In a funny way he has hit the proverbial nail on the head. At the risk of stating the obvious. CDs are men who dress in women's clothes. TGs are women with men's bodies.

Obviously because of the human condition it's never that obvious. So we are lumped together.

I don't think either variation benefit from this.

My own view is that whatever way you want to say it. CDing is essentially a hobby or a need for certain men. A harmless occupation. Being TS is an unfortunate situation. An awful daily dilemma. A situation where you spend your life pretending to be something you are not or throwing away your entire life hitherto and becoming the person you should have been.

If only I could just be a CD.

[emma5410]

Reading the posts of sometimes-miss, Frederique and Veronica just confirms that many CDs do not understand the first thing about being TS. As far as I can tell most of you are cisgendered and being TS is completely outside of your experience. Living with a male body from a young age and feeling it is fundamentally wrong is outside the experience of anyone who does not have that split between mind and body.
I went full time eight months ago because I had run out of options. It was a frightening thing to do but so was killing myself. Being full time has plenty of challenges but it has relieved the gender dysphoria. I am a woman despite the fact that I was born male. My inner female gender is not some illusion or fantasy. It not the result of convincing myself that I am a woman. I would not have put myself through the last eight months for an illusion or fantasy for anything. I am sorry Frederique you are an excellent writer and come up with interesting questions but you have shown time and time again that you just do not get it. To be honest I would not expect you to unless you have experienced it. I really wish I did not get it and could play dress up in pretty clothes instead of having to live the reality of it 24/7 .

[sabrinaedwards]

You have generated many "deep" responses. The only thing that I can say from my perspective is that it's more than the clothes. Yes, I'm a cross dresser, but it is so much more than that. Conversely, I do not think that we cannot feel the way a genetic female feels.

[PaulaQ]

Even if I say I like wearing women’s clothing, as I have done on several occasions, somebody “in the know” will point out that my predilection for tactile splendor has sexual overtones. They never say I’m suffering from some kind of gender disorder, even though my willful crossdressing is a highly cerebral exercise…

So who says that those who are "in the know" actually know shit? I don't believe most of them do - at least they don't understand what all of this is like.

The difference between your opinion, Frederique, and mine about all of this is that you believe you have free will over this, while I am certain that you do not. And that is what those "in the know" can't understand. And failing to understand this makes the rest of what they say just an exercise in an analytical proof that starts with an obviously false premise.


As far as I can tell most of you are cisgendered and being TS is completely outside of your experience.

I disagree that most people on this forum are cisgendered. They may assert "I'm a lumberjack and I'm ok..." but in fact, they are not. I think many here suffer from a milder form of what TS suffer from, one that can be controlled with CDing. This makes them lucky. But they also have real problems, real issues, and real pain because of it, and many of the problems faced are common to both the CD and TS individual.

I think the mighty "Denial" river flows through this forum with great majesty, and a vast gulf between her shores.

[Suzanne F]

This thread has caused me to really ponder what is going on with me. I know it is more than clothes for me and I always have. I don't know how I suppressed this for so long. Now that it has come out (6 months approx) it feels like I never had a choice. However if I was looking at it from the outside that mAkes no sense. I chose to ignore it for all that time. Now I want so much to be authentic. But that may hurt my family. Then I think no one would choose to be in this position would they? I just hate it when these issues divide us on here. I support everyone's attempt to find their true self and love the people in their lives.
Suzanne

[Brooklyn]

Thinking a lot about my gender does not make me happier. For some reason, emulating a woman does. Feminizing my appearance and doing activities that are traditionally feminine often do as well. Maybe one day HRT would, but I hope to avoid that. Considering what is involved with transitioning, I'd do everything possible I could to un-convince myself that I am a woman first. But if I ever convinced myself I was a woman, as you put it, or otherwise found myself to be TS, I'd hope I'd have the courage to accept that fact, act on it, and get on with the rest of my life.

[MissTee]

Have I convinced myself I'm a woman? I don't think so. When dressing I often envision myself as female because that is how my self expression manifests itself. Even then I know I'm genetically a guy, and to be honest I very much want to keep that part of me alive. CD-ing for me is about realizing all that I am, not changing what I am.

Whoa, that was pretty deep for me. Can we talk about shoes now?

[Frédérique]

Reading the posts of sometimes-miss, Frederique and Veronica just confirms that many CDs do not understand the first thing about being TS.

Earlier today I posted this in another thread:


I cry when the transsexuals lug their viewpoints over into the MtF section and transpose them over whatever is being discussed, as if only THEIR opinion matters, changing the course of a thread and ruining the proceedings. Just sayin’…

From MY point of view, transsexuals don’t know the first thing about being “just a crossdresser,” but that doesn’t stop them from commenting in this section, does it? Let me tell you something, since you brought it up: I don’t care what it’s like to be TS, OK? I can only attempt to discuss things that I DO know, and MtF crossdressing happens to be one of them. This thread is NOT about being TS, being on the road to TS, or thinking like a transsexual. It’s NOT my scene! Do “us” all a favor - look around, see where you are, and try to be sympathetic to people who are not at all like you. If you can manage that, I may not have to post things like the above quote...

In other words, gimme a break, or, better yet, THINK before posting...:waiting:

[vanitysumers]

I have convinced myself that at different angles I look like a man and others I look like a woman.


I sometimes feel somethings in my life show that I might feel like a woman sometimes but that MAN KEEPS EMERGING STRONG!

i do not think I can live as a woman cause i do not like men and I like the advantage of being a man. I like the advantage of being a woman too but i am glad I can remove that by removing the makeup,breast forms and clothing.

I am thinking about getting my hips done. That will just make another thing I need to hide when going to the gym or working out with my martial arts classes.
I wear baggy clothing to hide my butt and socks or always on to hide my toe nails that are always polished.I use water socks at the pool or beach .I use a baseball cap or beenie to hide my long hair.

[PaulaQ]

It's not considered good form in the internet to troll your own thread, Frederique.

How do you know I'm not a MtF crossdresser? I'm wearing makeup, a wig, breastforms. I spent months and months here being told - whoa - you are just a CD, slow down on the whole transition thing. Do I not have some say in what it's like to be a cross dresser? And I simply disagree with you that we're all that different.

I think your premise, that there is some magical difference between "just a CD" who's convinced themselves they are a female and a transsexual is ridiculous. How can you possibly tell the difference between the two? I know many girls in transition who thought they were "just a CD". A LOT of TS girls would love it if they were "just a CD".

So how then, in your mind would you tell the difference between the two? YOU CAN'T - and that's my point.

But you only started this thread to stir shit up - you know this - you admitted as much earlier in the thread! :)

Look, if you have to troll your own thread to get stuff boiling, that's just a fail. Have some pride and do what everyone else does and use a sock puppet account. Because really - your post is just kind of sad.

edit:

I cry when the transsexuals lug their viewpoints over into the MtF section and transpose them over whatever is being discussed, as if only THEIR opinion matters, changing the course of a thread and ruining the proceedings. Just sayin’…

You posted that in a thread I started, and I don't really care, but people were (and are) responding to that thread with some sincerity. YOUR thread here, has also had a fair amount of thoughtful and honest replies. They just don't agree with you, because, as you are sometimes wont to do - you spend paragraphs and paragraphs spouting just nonsense. For example:

- This thread, which is apparently for people who are convinced they are women, but aren't TS. This is simply idiotic.
- Your thread about "why don't men have long hair" - you got into a raging snit about it when people pointed out - "uh hey, I see lots of guys with long hair."

So the only person who seems to have hurt feelings here is you Frederique. And I'm sorry about that - but if you are going to post long posts that assert silly things, you can't get butt hurt about it when people point out "uh hey, that doesn't sound quite right..." I'm sorry, but that's just how I see it. If I have hurt someone's feelings with anything I've said - they are always welcome to PM me and discuss it. I take things like that seriously, and I really don't want to hurt anyone's feelings.

[vanitysumers]

MANY TS DONOT LIKE CD'S,DRAGQUEENS OR TV'S.

I READ IT ALL THE TIME THAT "its just a man in a dress and a wig".

I always tell them you are then just a man with silicone, a dress and a wig.

its so ridiculous!

[PaulaQ]

Vanity - many CDs don't like TS girls either.

You know what? Both sides are just FLAT OUT WRONG in my opinion.

We should get along. The world ****ing hates us - should we divide ourselves and hate one another as well? Does that make a goddamned particle of sense to anyone?

It doesn't to me.

[Michelle789]

Reading the posts of sometimes-miss, Frederique and Veronica just confirms that many CDs do not understand the first thing about being TS. As far as I can tell most of you are cisgendered and being TS is completely outside of your experience. Living with a male body from a young age and feeling it is fundamentally wrong is outside the experience of anyone who does not have that split between mind and body.

I've read this thread, as well as some very old threads that have been closed. I notice a lot of people say that most CD are "just CD" and are "straight male" all the way. I've also noticed from the a lot of threads the opposite, that most CD are in fact TS in denial.

Once again, the truth is somewhere in the middle. There are CD who are completely male and have no desire to be female, they just want to dress up sometimes. They have no gender dysphoria, just like to CD.
There are CD who are in between male and female, or are inherently female with no desire or need to transition. They may have a milder form of gender dysphoria.
There are CD who are TS in denial.
There are TS who thought they were once CD.
There are TS who always knew and skipped the CD phase.
There are TS who fight themselves for years before coming to terms with being TS women.


I disagree that most people on this forum are cisgendered. They may assert "I'm a lumberjack and I'm ok..." but in fact, they are not. I think many here suffer from a milder form of what TS suffer from, one that can be controlled with CDing. This makes them lucky. But they also have real problems, real issues, and real pain because of it, and many of the problems faced are common to both the CD and TS individual.

Thank you!!! CD and TS both face problems, lack of acceptance (external), and pain (internal)... and yes many CD have milder version of gender dysphoria. Gender is a spectrum rather than a binary black and white.

If you're convinced you're a woman, than maybe you're TS.


We should get along. The world ****ing hates us - should we divide ourselves and hate one another as well?

Absolutely agreed. Dividing ourselves only creates conflict and weakens us against the world. If we stand united we'll find better acceptance in the world, the best thing we can do is be decent human beings and show that to everybody.

Btw LA and SF are two of the most progressive places in the world (at least the USA), and even here there is plenty of hatred. I can't imagine what it would be like in Texas. I personally know of people in LA who hate CD and TS, and I've never even come out to anyone in real life yet. LA (and SF) is as good as it gets. Seriously let's just along and not fight amongst ourselves.

The real issue should be coming to terms with ourselves and how we want to express our gender, the self-discovery process, and what actions we need to take; not World War 3 between the TS vs CD.

I want to give a special thanks to PaulaQ and ReineD for being really understanding. It's really a pleasure to see some people who truly understand and have an open mind :)

[emma5410]

Earlier today I posted this in another thread:



From MY point of view, transsexuals don’t know the first thing about being “just a crossdresser,” but that doesn’t stop them from commenting in this section, does it? Let me tell you something, since you brought it up: I don’t care what it’s like to be TS, OK? I can only attempt to discuss things that I DO know, and MtF crossdressing happens to be one of them. This thread is NOT about being TS, being on the road to TS, or thinking like a transsexual. It’s NOT my scene! Do “us” all a favor - look around, see where you are, and try to be sympathetic to people who are not at all like you. If you can manage that, I may not have to post things like the above quote...

In other words, gimme a break, or, better yet, THINK before posting...:waiting:

Sorry Fredrique. I have read your posts in the TS section. One in particular that I and many others found insulting. Perhaps you should practice what you preach.

[Frédérique]

I've read this thread, as well as some very old threads that have been closed. I notice a lot of people say that most CD are "just CD" and are "straight male" all the way. I've also noticed from the a lot of threads the opposite, that most CD are in fact TS in denial.

Thanks for actually reading it...:straightface:

Not that it’s any of my business, and not to get off topic, but how many people are CONVINCED they are TS? Whoops! Wrong section for that one...:doh:


Sorry Fredrique. I have read your posts in the TS section. One in particular that I and many others found insulting.

I rarely post in the TS section, mainly because I don’t belong there, but incursions of the type I have already outlined, coming from the other direction, accompanied by prejudicial rhetoric, make asking a simple question in THIS section an exercise in controversy, as well as futility...

If I wanted to be REALLY controversial, and I don’t, I would point out that these little questions of mine strike at the heart of the matter, in this case lingering doubt in one’s mind about what you are, or what you’re trying to be. When I wrote the OP I knew who would be responding, and what they would post, so I hesitated, but I decided to go ahead anyway. It all points out how biased some people are against MtF crossdressers who have no “trans” in their physical, emotional or physiological makeup. In short, we get no respect, perhaps because we aren’t actively trying to convince ourselves that we are women in one way or another. Still, we crossdress. Comparing us to transsexuals is unfair, and, to use your words, a bit insulting – not to us, but to TS individuals. Beyond that, it’s pointless to compare apples and oranges, even though we seem to inhabit the same space, for better or worse...

One more thing – if you were “insulted” by my incursion into YOUR section, or insulted by the words that I carefully chose for the occasion, you need to know that I did not engineer that episode with the express purpose of insulting a certain group of people on this site. I was merely asking a question, like I am now, that has some bearing on the proceedings around here. It’s too bad you will never see all of the messages of support I received, in private (of course), from the very people I was allegedly insulting! You don’t suppose I hit the nail on the head, do you? Go figure...

[emma5410]

I was not actually apologising for my post. I was saying I am sorry but you are wrong.
I do not believe you are as innocent as you pretend. You troll. You do it repeatedly. The funniest thing is that in your initial reply you quote one of your own totally off topic, trolling posts in Paula's thread.
You never hit a nail on the head you just display your ignorance.
This thread could have been an interesting discussion sadly it is not. As you started this thread I will remove myself from it and let you carry on doing what you do so well.

[stefan37]

The bottom line is you are, you are not, or you fall somewhere in the middle. Freddy, you say you are just a male that crossdresses. I get from your writings it is more than that and you are trying to convince yourself that it is not. Why the female name, just a quiet girl, for your avatar? There where plenty of members over the years that had their male name, male picture, yet they crossdressed. If there is any compulsion to have the need to cross dress then there is a intensity of gender dysphoria at some level. The trick is to recognize and confront it. Confronting it is where the issues arise.

An individual that convinces themselves they are a woman and takes those steps to grow into one will have a very unhappy existence if internally they are male. Transition gets real at some point and in many cases it becomes real very fast. Marital relationships are altered, friendships and family relationships are altered, job loss occurs. It is nice to live in a fantasy world and escape reality for a time. People can convince themselves of anything they want, but if it isn't real in their minds it will not be.

Denial and fear are powerful emotions, that inhibit and stunt our personal growth and in many cases contribute to living an unhappy existence.

[linda allen]

"Have you CONVINCED yourself that you’re a woman?"

No. Everytime I stand naked in front of a mirror, it's pretty obvious that I'm a man. It would take a whole lot of work to make me otherwise.

I am a male who likes to pretend he is a female from time to time. A crossdresser, nothing more.

[Momarie]

Frederique,

Perhaps others don't see you as the unique, non-controversial, individual you see yourself as.

[Kaz]

Hi Freddie,

Not been here for a while for lots of reasons, but so glad to see you still getting at the philosophical and for me the real emotive issues. I am still agonising over all of this but have realised some useful answers in the last 9 months. I joined another site where I project as 100% female. Now I know this may stir up a whole hornet's nest and I am glad if it does because this is important.

Online I pass - real life is a different ball game but I am so much happier as a result and have lots of really dear online male and female friends. This may be pure fantasy, but it has become really important for me. I am so so comfortable in myself.

So for me I now know... my head is very female... sadly my body isn't but I have lost loads of weight, and done lots of exercises and am now 34 (under-bust)-28-34 (5' 5" tall) and so proud. I am planning to get a navel piercing and now dress as I feel.... except for client engagements when I do 100% male - not so keen on losing income streams unnecessarily LOL!

I am also now very much out to my immediate family - they don't like it but prefer that to me when I am stressed and upset about life stuff. So I am tactful and only CD out of sight (except for when I fall asleep or forget to turn the computer screen off...LOL)......... yes there have been some interesting moments!

To me you will always be the thought provoking friend I came to love here.... and please please just carry on.... well until the mods get you! hehehe

God bless you Freddie....

Kaz xoxoxoxoxoxo

[Frédérique]

Not been here for a while for lots of reasons, but so glad to see you still getting at the philosophical and for me the real emotive issues. I am still agonising over all of this but have realised some useful answers in the last 9 months. I joined another site where I project as 100% female. Now I know this may stir up a whole hornet's nest and I am glad if it does because this is important. Online I pass - real life is a different ball game but I am so much happier as a result and have lots of really dear online male and female friends. This may be pure fantasy, but it has become really important for me. I am so so comfortable in myself.
To me you will always be the thought provoking friend I came to love here.... and please please just carry on.... well until the mods get you! Hehehe God bless you Freddie....

I’m glad to see your SMILING face, Kaz, especially on a day like this, and thanks very much for the kind words! That’s all I’m try to do around here – provoke thoughts! Also, thanks for responding to the original question as it was asked – your experiences are exactly what I was trying to get at, i.e. a highly personal relationship to one’s convictions...

I would say this is a successful thread. We have explored an issue that pertains to crossdressers by way of discussion, learning a few things along the way. Way back when I was visualizing this exercise, and contemplating the controversy it would no doubt generate, I wondered if I should even try such a thing. I mean, submitting topics like this is much like going into battle, or at least sticking your head above the trench to attract attention. However, you need to know that I do not seek attention, or controversy, or nasty responses, or verbal hugs from anyone who supports me. That’s not what it’s about. Rather, I’m just asking a QUESTION, and you should try to see it that way…

I would judge, by reading through the many responses to the topic, that there are many people here who are actively engaged in trying to convince themselves that they are women, or maybe they are trying to convince themselves that they need to convince themselves of something. I’m referring to an issue that weaves its way through the MtF section, and not an issue that would be better discussed in other sections – some of us here are in need of convincing, for whatever reason, and not thoroughly here nor there, in gender terms. I wouldn’t have brought this up, but I KNOW that there are people who struggle with this, perhaps not thinking of it as convincing, but otherwise doing exactly that…

You wouldn’t believe how carefully these things have to be written, or how many revisions I go through, but I know how some people will be responding to the slightest perceived slight, no matter how I word things. Dismissing the OP purely as an exercise in semantics is disheartening, to say the least, reminding me that most individuals who crossdress do not wish to think about their circumstances, seeing me as someone who is trying to shake the very foundations of their existence. That’s NOT true, my friends. I like to look into things, or see how (or why) things come about, or peer behind the façade and see the inner workings of the human mind. Just because I feel no need to convince myself that I’m a woman doesn’t mean asking the question is invalid. As I stated in the OP, I am always on the side of the crossdresser, no matter what variation SHE may be…

At times like this, I’m always reminded of something the inimitable Kathi Lake once asked me: “Freddy, why do you write these things?” In other words, what’s the point? Well, they are FUN to write, for one thing, and its fun to read the responses, and then write a little more. Of course, I don’t like “going into battle,” since misunderstandings will always ensue, but when you ask a pointed question you will get some pointed answers. If a discussion goes along for a few days or more, as this one did (and maybe still IS), and the responses are lengthy, I feel like I’m getting closer to something, subject to YOUR interpretation. In the aftermath, I will usually gain a few new friends, and a few more lucky souls will inhabit Freddy’s island of ignorance. Casualties are to be expected in discussions like this, if truth is your ultimate goal…

I’m still standing, licking my emotional wounds, and I WILL carry on (thanks again, Kaz)…:)

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Freddy, I'm just an average 70yr. old guy that loves dressing as a real lady, It's just who I am and it's what I do, And totally enjoy doing it.

[Ressie]

The mind will imagine things both good and bad, both real and fantasy. And the mind will begin to believe things that aren't true. I'm convinced that I'm a guy. There's plenty of evidence to support that notion. But pretending to be a female once in a while is also a part of me. Maybe someone else will someday convince me that I'm actually a woman, but no one's tried to yet.

[TheMissus]

I still find it personally puzzling why anyone would NEED to convince themselves they're a woman rather than just enjoy being a man who CD? Why must it be anything more than that? But then I read the comments here from some who insist ALL men who crossdress suffer a mild gender dysphoria and I realize why this situation might happen. Peer pressure! I feel like I'm back at high school reading such comments. Mind you, the 'what color are your panties' threads are worse, lol.

Anyway, I'd like to say to those who feel pressured to be something they're not - DON'T! Just be yourself, for crying out loud - you're grown men! And to those who insist everyone feels the same way they do or are suffering the same issues - you don't need anyone else to validate who you are or how you feel either. You just need to believe in yourself and not worry what anyone else is doing. A man who CD purely for fun is not lessening the validity of your dysphoria. They just happen to be different issues that look similar and that's okay. Difference is good, isn't it?!

Still an interesting thread, Frederique. :)

[Soriya]

I have not been able to convince myself I am 100% a woman and believe me I have tried. Half female yes but 100%, no. Every time I have asked myself this question I am always greeted with the follow up question of "Is it my male self I have never liked or do I associate all the negative experiences I have endured as male that drive me to feel that way since dressing brought me comfort through those times?"

[ReineD]

I still find it personally puzzling why anyone would NEED to convince themselves they're a woman rather than just enjoy being a man who CD?

Because the prospect of "becoming" or even "being" a woman is too much fun (for those who do need to convince themselves)? I think that many CDers feel a certain limitation with having male bodies. A lot of CDers would like to have the ability to flip a switch and temporarily grow boobs, shrink the waist, have natural padding on the butt, and drop 10 or 15 years from their faces, only to be able to return to guy mode the next day. While other CDers would want to be like this all the time simply because it is so enticing. It appears to me as if it's about how sexy and beautiful they can be, rather than just being a regular, average, female version of themselves that doesn't garner much more attention than the average GG their age. :p

Soriya, I think you nailed it.

[PaulaQ]

What's the score on this thread - did any of the MtF CD's actually admit to being convinced that they were women?


You either feel that you’re a woman, or you really should’ve been a woman, or you really WANT to be a woman, for whatever reason, so you set out to convince yourself of this fact, regardless of the cost, no matter what it takes...

To me, that is the essence of transgender, and I can now better understand why TG individuals are so defensive about things – it takes a lot of effort, this convincing, and nothing will deter the person from attaining a state where there are NO doubts.

Is this really the cornerstone of the transgender experience, as Freddy mentions? And if it is, why haven't more MtF CD's 'fessed up that they, through a process, convinced themselves of this. And what could that mysterious process be.

So have we convinced ourselves, instead, that NO real MtF crossdresser then truly convinces themselves that they are women? I mean, why would they?

So who are these mysterious TG people to whom Freddy poses his question? They are not transsexuals, for lo, in Freddy's own words:


I cry when the transsexuals lug their viewpoints over into the MtF section and transpose them over whatever is being discussed, as if only THEIR opinion matters, changing the course of a thread and ruining the proceedings. Just sayin’…

That was posted in a thread I started, about crying.


From MY point of view, transsexuals don’t know the first thing about being “just a crossdresser,” but that doesn’t stop them from commenting in this section, does it? Let me tell you something, since you brought it up: I don’t care what it’s like to be TS, OK? I can only attempt to discuss things that I DO know, and MtF crossdressing happens to be one of them. This thread is NOT about being TS, being on the road to TS, or thinking like a transsexual.

So I'm puzzled by several things here. An obvious example of a transgender person who is convinced they are a woman would be a transsexual. But Freddy doesn't want to talk to us. (Apparently, also, 3 weeks on HRT makes me, a member since February and I think a relatively friendly one, an invader to this forum.)

I'm also confused by why I wouldn't understand what it's like to be "just a crossdresser?" That seems absurd. I've been crossdressing longer than Freddy has been alive! What's not to understand? Sneaking around? The shame? The guilt? Desperately wanting to convince myself that I'm just a guy with an unusual predilection? Am I missing something?

But anyway, the question remains, who are these mysterious TG persons who have convinced themselves that they are women, but are not TS? We could ask the rather rude question have TS people convinced themselves that they are the opposite gender, but Freddy doesn't want to talk to them so we'll never really know if that was implied in her OP or not. Clearly, TS is a non-issue, and has no place in this highly philosophical thread! And that's fine, but then who are these mythical transgendered self-convinced crossdressing men who believe they are women? Are they rarely spotted, like bigfoot, or unicorns, or leprechauns? And do they have magical properties? We may never know! (I'm sorry, I threw that last question in on my own!)

Fortunately, thanks to threads like this one (THANKS FREDDY!!!!) we can be sure that we are mostly here just manly, manly men, manly men who wear stockings, and garters, and heels and skirts. Manly, macho, manly men who love doing guy stuff and who masturbate into our panties and then feel just awful about it. Manly men, convinced that as long as we grasp and tug upon that slender reed of hope, that we are not women. Thus fortified, we can now get about the business of crossdressing - at least until laundry day.

So what of the original questions and point of this thread? Who knows - and why do you care anyway - you don't care - you just feel better knowing - "aaaaah" and "ok, not me then." Enjoy!


In the aftermath, I will usually gain a few new friends, and a few more lucky souls will inhabit Freddy’s island of ignorance. Casualties are to be expected in discussions like this, if truth is your ultimate goal…

I'm absolutely speechless at the honesty in the statement above - breathtaking. Just breathtaking! Oh, and a smattering of mathematical logic for you to consider with respect to the statement above:

if A then B
only implies B is true if A is true.
If A is false, then B may be either true, or false. Take your pick.

I can fully believe that Frederique, who obviously has a sensitive and artistic soul, suffers greatly from some of the responses in threads like these. And so to her, I dedicate this song - a song that always makes me think of sensitive artistic souls, tortured by their inner need to find truth and to put an order to this outlandish chaos that we call reality.

Consider it an olive branch. Watch the video, and marvel at the genius, and then think back on Freddy!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-kHB2fWUS8

[GroovyChristy]

Frederique, isn't it a bit presumptuous to think that transgender folks have to convince themselves they belong to the sex their bodies were not born as? Now, there may be crossdressers who try to convince themselves they are transgender in order to feel validated, to whom I would say, just be yourselves and don't worry about it, it's ok to be "just a crossdresser." But for the true transgender person, the word you are looking for is not "convince," but "realize," or "accept." Perhaps even "admit."

[ReineD]

But anyway, the question remains, who are these mysterious TG persons who have convinced themselves that they are women, but are not TS?

They won't come into this thread and admit this since they have convinced themselves they are women. They won't think this thread applies to them. But these are the people who have quite different definitions of what being TS is, compared to the TSs who do transition.

Their focus tends to be on things other than aligning the body with the mind. It tends to be on the clothes, the boobs, the looks, being beautiful, having sex with men, etc.

If you pay attention to the threads here, you'll begin to see a pattern.

[PaulaQ]

They won't come into this thread and admit this since they have convinced themselves they are women. They won't think this thread applies to them.

Well then if the non-TS but still TG people who are convinced they are women won't speak in this thread, and the TS people who are also TG (by definition) aren't welcome to discuss their feelings about gender, then who exactly is this thread talking to? To people who largely have no idea whatsoever about the matter at hand? (er, the matter of the thread[I] at hand. There are other matters at hand they have a grasp on, I am sure.)

If this is merely someone's favorite fantasy for their "personal relaxation time", are they really then [I]convinced they are women? That seems like a stretch to me.

Where does one draw the line between "fantasy" and "conviction". I know the TS girls sometimes say "transition!" but I disagree with that, mostly because there are TS girls who aren't able to transition for economic reasons. But anyway, we aren't talking about TS girls - Freddy was adamant about that, I will respect her wishes on the matter.

So who're we talking about? And if I meet such a one, how then should I greet them? "You're not really a woman", or "Welcome sister!" or what? (Doh! It can't be the last one, they'd be TS then, right? And we've excluded that outcome!) Will they be polite and tell me "I'm 100% sure I'm a woman, but I AM NOT A TRANSSEXUAL?" That'd help - I'd hate to make a mistake like I just did in the sentence above...


Frederique, isn't it a bit presumptuous to think that transgender folks have to convince themselves they belong to the sex their bodies were not born as?

Interestingly enough, Freddy is not a transgender person - she says this quite freely. (Should I say "he", this confuses me greatly and I'd hate to misgender someone. I'm sticking with the "if you present like a girl, I use feminine pronouns" rule, sorry if I offend anyone.) But she feels she's hit upon the cornerstone of transgender, and certainly feels free to comment on it.

However, TS girls like me clearly don't understand the plight of the average CD. Even those who CD'd for decades longer than Freddy has been alive. We should not comment upon, because we can't understand, the plight and feelings of the CD.

Because that's just fair.

[ReineD]

This is too confusing. :p

There are too many different definitions of "TS", "TG", "CD", "woman" in this forum to have any agreement on anything.

The point is though, there are those who think they are women, and there are those who are. This is to be expected in a community as varied as this one. With time and practice, you'll develop a sense of this too and you'll see it in the various posts here and there. It is rather nebulous though and I don't think that anyone can be as precise about it as you would like.

As to how you might greet them? In general terms like the rest of us and try to not be insulting. Even though you will have doubts about some people and only time will prove to what degree they will have followed through their claim that they are women, no one ever really knows for sure.

... except when you see people who are heavily involved in this forum, swear up and down they are women, and then they stop coming. They disappear into thin air, without having shared anything about any steps toward transition. This happens a lot here. The natural conclusion is that they've had second thoughts and it is easier to not come back than admit it.

[Princess Chantal]

I still find it personally puzzling why anyone would NEED to convince themselves they're a woman rather than just enjoy being a man who CD? Why must it be anything more than that? But then I read the comments here from some who insist ALL men who crossdress suffer a mild gender dysphoria and I realize why this situation might happen. Peer pressure!
For my crossdressing, it is nothing more than enjoying it to the fullest. No gender dysphoria here, no need to convince myself or others that I'm not a man. I am very comfortable with being looked as a man who enjoys crossdressing, something like a hobby to me.

[Michelle789]

This thread is getting extremely confusing. I have to come to one of these conclusions about Freddy.

1. Freddy is that "mysterious TG persons who have convinced themselves that they are women, but are not TS"
2. Freddy is a TS woman in denial, who is convinced herself that she is a man.
3. Freddy has a fantasy of being a woman, therefore convinces herself that she is a woman.
4. Freddy is the epitome of gender confused.
5. Freddy is a sociopath.
6. Freddy enjoys pushing people's buttons.
7. Freddy has way too much free time.
8. Freddy is a "just a writer", nothing more, nothing less.
9. Freddy is the mysterious third gender.
10. Freddy is other, please explain.

Freddy, which is it? You have to pick any one, or more, of the 10 options.

[PaulaQ]

The natural conclusion is that they've had second thoughts and it is easier to not come back than admit it.

Interesting. That wouldn't be my first natural conclusion. I'd conclude that they'd managed to shove the awful feelings back down into the box once again, pressured by society, their lives, their families, the circumstances that make transition so difficult. (Indeed, some have no real option to ever really go through the medical parts of transition.) That doesn't, to my mind, imply it wasn't real. Many who ultimately do transition try a time or two, fail, and then ultimately go through with it. Some, of course, never succeed for a variety of reasons.

Or perhaps you are talking about people who post "I'm going to go talk to a doc about starting HRT and breast augmentation tomorrow and see what he says!!!!" Not understanding the Kafkaesque process that is the legitimate medical process of transitioning. Someone not possessing a plane ticket to someplace that turns a blind eye to WPATH is going to have to eat their words, and I wouldn't think would post again, because reporting the doctor's response would be embarrassing. I have seen this once or twice - I'm not convinced this would be the majority though. (And how do we know they aren't really kind of sincere, but just really naïve?)

I mean, we live in a society that throws pain pills and Viagra around like candy. Why shouldn't there be a quick fix for gender concerns? (I mean, *I* know why there isn't, lol, but I can understand someone who doesn't know anything assuming that there could be. Or at least hoping for such a thing.)

I mean, deciding you want to be another gender, even for a time, is a pretty big mental step. I certainly had a hard time overcoming all the social conditioning I'd received against this. Indeed it wasn't until my psyche began to disintegrate, and tell me "yeah, ok, deal with this, or we're *ALL* going to die." that I began to take it seriously. Shit, I'm sorry, I'm talking TS stuff again. Sorry Freddy. I was trying to relate my difficulties with overcoming social imperatives and conditioning to those that might be faced by someone else, but since I'm TS, as it turns out, my feelings on any of this don't matter or are uninteresting to this discussion.

BTW, do you agree, Reine, that I probably have no actual insight on how someone might feel facing something like this within them? Freddy says I don't. Or that it's not relevant or interesting or something.

edit:

A simple way to be less confused by this topic!

I can appreciate those who are becoming confused by this thread, as we've analyzed the logic and structure of Freddy's query and the assertions placed upon it as axioms of logic. There are some who might, then conclude that since Freddy obviously isn't talking about anyone, that the entire content of this thread is:

nil - the empty set. It means nothing.

I reject this - I think Freddy's really on to something here, but then my personal motto is the following:

"Yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation" yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation.

I can tell you I fully embrace this motto, and it helps me more deeply understand topics such as the one in which we are actively engaged.

[TheMissus]

... we can be sure that we are mostly here just manly, manly men, manly men who wear stockings, and garters, and heels and skirts. Manly, macho, manly men who love doing guy stuff and who masturbate into our panties and then feel just awful about it.

LOL!! I know I shouldn't laugh as this is a serious topic, but this had me choking on my
coffee.

Princess Chantal, thanks for sharing :) My H has no dysphoria either, but then he has a sexual CD 'hobby' and needs to be a man to enjoy it, so to speak. Funny how many different reasons a man can find to put on a dress, isn't it?

I guess that's the real crux of all this banter - who is a man and who isn't? Freddy, I assume from the postings here, is all man. Paula is a woman. I should tell the two of you now to quit arguing as you'll NEVER agree as the battle of the sexes has been waging forever, lol. Freddy, just admit you're wrong like all good men should and we can get on with our day.

Yep, I pulled out the female card - we get to be right at the end of all arguments :)

[Veronica27]

Why does an intelligent well-written post that poses an interesting, albeit somewhat ethereal question, always have to degenerate into insults and name calling. Given the context of the direction in which this discussion has been heading, the song that was linked above was extremely sarcastic and condescending. Let's discuss the questions asked or move on to the next thread. I am getting fed up with everybody attacking the writer instead of the writing.

Veronica

[Tamara Croft]

And I've just about had it with these threads turning into a bash for all. So with that said, thread closed.

If I see another thread posted like this just to start arguments, it's being deleted.