old life, new life, identity

[arbon]

weird post

I used to do a lot of hunting, fishing, outdoor stuff - you know...guy stuff. When the gender issue really spiked in 09 I stepped away from it all, stopped doing the guy stuff I used to do, stopped having anything to do with all those friends I did that stuff with.

My focus became all about trans issues, transitioning, trying to make my life come together as a woman, becoming closer with other women as friends. Doing what the women do. Shutting the door on my identity as "him".

This morning though I was talking to my old best hunting and fishing buddy, and we start talking about the upcoming steelhead run on the salmon river. Before I know it we are starting to make plans to go :brolleyes:

which feels a little weird to me.

I mean women don't go hang out with guys who are just friends on fishing trips. They do that sort of thing with their boyfriends and husbands, but not as friends. And if I do it it does seem like I would be bringing back some of that old identity. If I did it, would it feel like us being two guys hanging out again or like a woman hanging out with a guy?

I would love to go though, I miss steelheading and would like to hang out with him on the river. And as much as I want to forget the past I did love to do those things - I was not faking it (even though I have found I can be very dismissive about my past - I think it will be another thread)


Is it better to keep that door shut, or is it okay to do that guy stuff you liked to do with the guys again? What does that make you if you do that?



Oh, to add more head spin, I have feelings for him, you know like thinking we would make a great couple (it will have to wait for another life). Of course if he knew how I felt about him he would freak out in a bad way I am sure.

[Marleena]

Arbon what I've noticed is that I still like the things I used to. I do notice that it's not quite as important as it used to be, like the intensity isn't there if, if that make sense. If you're out to your friend I see no harm in doing things you still enjoy. I think a break from all this TS stuff might be a great idea. This really gets overwhelming at times. Oh and I'd see it as two friends fishing.

[Jorja]

Arbon, I think you really need to go out and take a good look around. Sure, the guys out number the girls but the girls are out there. Most of the high profile outfitters for example Cabela's and Bass Pro are really pushing to get more women involved. Here in Ohio there are women that get together as a group and go hunting and fishing.

It my personal opinion (no scientific proof) that Transsexual women suffer greatly with two things. Their past and their future. I look at it like this, while both past and future are important in our lives, there is nothing in our past that we can change and nothing in our future we can do anything about until we get there. Concentrate on the present and do what makes you happy today. If that is going hunting and fishing with an old friend, so be it.

I just wanted to add, I still go hunting for whitetail deer every year.

[stefan37]

I like you have put many things on hold to transition. On the other hand I will do as many things with my friends as they will feel comfortable. I went camping on our annual camping trip this year. I had a long talk with my high school buddy this year about next year. I will be just as welcome next year as any other year. Good friendships are hard to come by. Those that continue to be our friends while and after transitioning are those you do not want to lose.

Who says men and women have to enjoy different things. I still like watching football. I still do brakes on our company trucks. i will not give up those hobbies and things I enjoy and neither should you.
Go fishing, have a great time. I will send my address, looking forward to some fresh salmon. :)

[KellyJameson]

I belong to Woman Bow Hunters and have participated on their forum for a number of years.

Women participate in many of the same sports traditionally viewed as a male domain.

I personally think it is a mistake to use your interests to determine your gender identity.

Gender identity as "the feelings you have" come out of your very early past that was learned because of that specific energy you carry inside you as the expression of what your physiology creates that lead you in the first years of life to "know" you are a girl.

You can never "unmake" this knowing but either repress it or discover and live it.

Transitioning is an "allowing" of what is already there so you are building that which really already exists but just has not been expressed.

What you do as a woman has little to do with "being one", if that doing is defined by your interests or those you associate with.

I associate with men but I have never been able to associate with them as a man and they would always feel this about me and become uneasy because they thought it was a sexual thing.

It was not a sexual thing but sex certainly can be shaped and influenced by this energy which is what sounds like is happening with you.

There is a difference between a transsexual and a homosexual. The energies are completely different and with a homosexual you can sense the man within. It is impossible for a man to hide that he is a man because the energy that fuels his behavior is very distinctive.

You can always tell on a forum when a man is trying to pretend he is a woman because men move differently even when they are using words and it is this movement that is created by their masculine energy.

You see this with crossdressers all the time where how they use words is very masculine even though they would possibly be considered feminine men.

You are born with this energy and it is only a matter identifying it and than living it and it is in this energy which is the absolute expression of your very essence where your true identity lives.

Following this energy acts like your guide and in my opinion it should be what you serve and not societies definition of what is a woman.

It is my opinion that transsexuals just like women all over the planet at some point after transitioning should consider rebelling against the straitjacket of female stereotypes.

This is particularly difficult to do for the transsexual who look for symbols that represent the symbolic representation of "femaleness" so that they are recognized for who they are.

In my opinion you want to strike a balance between acknowledging that you must bend to societies construct of what "symbolizes" the female as "feminine" that makes a woman more womanly but remember these very things were created by men for sexual reasons and do not really "make a woman"

In my opinion transsexuals must reach a point in their personal growth where they also "burn their bras" by understanding the message of feminism while also rejecting the misandry of those feminists that are separatists which will help bring balance back between men and women.

Hunting, fishing or whatever does not make or break a persons gender.

If you want to "act" like a woman for survival in a society that certainly can be dangerous for the transsexual, that is simply common sense but do not lose the actual woman as your "self" in the process.

Remember how painful it was to "act" like man. You do not want to make the same mistake but now it is the other side of the same coin.

Going from "one act" to "another act" will keep you divided against yourself and you will never completely experience your identity as a woman.

Be very careful about displaying sexual interest in a heterosexual man. Remember for the vast majority of people their sexual identity and their gender identity are wrapped up tightly with each other so if you cause sexual confusion in him you could also potentially attack his "identity" as a man leaving him in doubt of his "masculinity"

The more "masculine" (energy) the man is the more invested he will be in his masculinity (identity) making for the potential of violence being used against you.

Flirting and seducing men is an art form for any woman but you must remember that he has experienced you "otherwise" and you could create an extreme conflict in his mind.

For your own safety be extremely careful because something like that could blow up your life.

[melissaK]

After Kelly's erudite essay I don't have much to add. I really agree about not relying on hobbies and such to define gender - but I get how culture taught us to do that, and how odd it is to strip those stereotypical notions of gender roles away.

Arbon, I've been thrown into mild confusion myself by living, or trying to live, between two worlds in gender outlaw land. Some of the same concerns you expressed hit me too. I've been outing myself to select F&F because I want to be "me" as much as I can. And in that process I've found it's no big shock to many, and my "out" behavior in general social settings isn't much altered. Like Kelly suggests, and with which I agree, I've never thrown off a solid "man" vibe, nor a "gay" vibe. My brother in law has long labelled me as a "woman" in a humerous but still serious way. He saw it in my relationships with the women in our lives - I "got" them, and was comfortable being with them, and thinking more like them. I was apparently used by them as an example of how he oughta act, a standard he could never meet, hence he made the point I was "one of them" and wasn't a fair example. The point I'm dallying over is I've always been recognized as being more "me" than I realized. Might be the same for you Arbon.

But when I head off with my traditional male friends to do the shooting or car stuff I enjoy, now I am really uncomfortable. It's among them I was the most hidden and most deceptive. And I am no longer interested in that level of deception. It's noticeable too. My closest guy doing guy stuff friend dropped me a month ago, and we've patched it up but I'm not out to him, but it's a different friendship. I'm different and he knows it. And I'm pretty sure he knows I'm lying to him by omission, by not telling him my whole story. Again, I'm not getting to the point quickly, but Arbon, I think my point is this: since you have told this friend, and you are out completely, you might have to pay attention to the fact you have a "new" friendship now. Some things are going to be different. Go slow, I guess??

As for the crush on him thing, that's outside my thinking. I just don't care for guys that way at all. :-)

[kimdl93]

you don't have to meet some stereotypical standard for what is male or female. Lots of women hunt, fish, race cars, play video games, etc. And if you have a friend who remains your friend after all that you've already gone through, why give that friendship up. He may have some questions that you can answer and you may find that you can be a woman and be a friend to a man.

As for other feelings - well, just let things take care of themselves.

[Shapeshiffter]

I still like hunting and fishing. Archery and martial arts. why can't women like those things.
When I changed my name and gender marker the most entertaining place I had to go was Fish and game. I don't think they had had to deal with a trans women before.

[WandaRae2009]

If Sarah Palin can hunt and fish, why can't you. If you enjoyed it before go ahead and have some fun.

[Michelle.M]

I dunno. Really, you ought to do the things that give you pleasure and satisfaction if you want to. Let others worry about what they think about that.

Like you, I put many things on hold but have begun to do some of them again, like building motorcycles. I just had to get some gender business out of the way so I could go back to having some fun doing that.

Oh, and I suggest that you let nature take its course with respect to any feelings you might have for this guy friend. You might be surprised at how things work out. I thought I wouldn't date until I was post-op, but life had other plans. Just sayin'.

[abigailf]

Do what you enjoy and just be yourself. I just spent the weekend with 7 of my guy friends from the old days. They still include me and I still go. I cooked a nice dinner for them on Sunday. I don't feel any less of a woman as a result.

So, yea if you enjoy fishing, then fish. Also, I know what you mean about having feelings for your guy friends. It is probably a good idea to table those feelings for another life. That is a complication neither of you are ready for yet. Though I am no expert in this area.

[Marleena]

Oh, to add more head spin, I have feelings for him, you know like thinking we would make a great couple (it will have to wait for another life). Of course if he knew how I felt about him he would freak out in a bad way I am sure.


OOps! Looks like I missed this part or you changed it because I replied so quickly?? My answer stays the same, just two old friends going fishing for now. Ladies never make the first move (or so I'm told.) :)

[Ann Louise]

It's really weird timing that you mentioned that today. I just got off the phone with a dear transwoman friend of mine. She's from Missouri, I'm a long-time resident of Alaska, and now both of us live in western Washington. We shoot targets, and fish, too. We're planning on taking my rubber inflatable and outboard out to do some salt-water fishing on Puget Sound asap weather permitting. Why not?! Have fun and live your life. If anyone can shed pre-conceived notions of gender roles it's TS women, no? All the best, Ann

(later: BTW, my feelings toward men are evolving, too. A recurring, wistful fantasy, that I'm being cared for, and protected and loved by a gentle, confident and loving man. Kinda nice dream...)

[Nigella]

I can understand your need to hold off on your leisure, especially if they are seen as "guy" things, but there really is no reason why, if it brings you pleasure, that you cannot pursue them again.

There is no such thing as "his" and "hers" when it comes to doing things you enjoy. Don't perpetuate societal constraints.

As for having feeling for your friend, take it steady, if he has the same feelings for you, they may show themselves, indeed it shows his comfort level to get to the point where you can go fishing together.

[toniloraine]

Im ready to fish the clearwater

[melissakozak]

Not odd at all. Go, have fun. Enjoy life and enjoy what you like to do....our own internal gender governor can really be the problem....

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I have kept friendships with guy friends...we do a lot of the same things we've always done... I don't have any feelings for any of them

it's not weird or strange to me at all... I don't feel like I "should" or "shouldn't" do anything with them... I feel like I want to or don't want to do things..

If you want to go , go.

[LeaP]

I guess the only part I don't get is why anyone would want to fish. :strugglin

Seriously, the only question I have is whether your attraction - especially hidden for the time being - introduces an element that will compromise your enjoyment of the trip and whether it's really fair to your friend. It's not like you have an agenda, but it is putting yourself in the circumstances for ... something.

[MysticLady]

I would love to go though, I miss steelheading and would like to hang out with him on the river. And as much as I want to forget the past I did love to do those things - I was not faking it (even though I have found I can be very dismissive about my past - I think it will be another thread)


Hi Arbon

You know, Since I've been exploring this wonderful world of "being the other", I've noticed that, folks are afraid of being or enjoying themselves, for some reason or another. If it's something you like to do then, Do It. Just like men that enjoy crossdressing and want too step out in the Big Mean World but are held back by something. "if you're gonna die, then die w/ your Boots(or heels:heehee:) on. In other words, if you enjoy doing it, then do it. Go fishing w/ your buddy. If you're gonna want their acceptance then, we must accept and appreciate them for who they are! :)

[I Am Paula]

You holding on to a stereotype of what women do, and what guys do. If you believe that logic, women should not go to university, hold executive jobs, or fly airplanes. The only thing holding you back from fishing is finding a good place to put your purse.
The bears may say 'OMG that's an unmarried guy and girl fishing...scandalous!'

[FurPus63]

Arborn,
Sometimes we get so carried away with feminization we forget about being human! So many of the tips here are correct. Just as we enjoy getting dressed up in a sexy dress, wearing high heels and make-up, etc.... we also need to embrace those things that are typically viewed as "male" or "masculine" activities. Although it's true that we shouldn't stereotype things cause then we are just contributing to our already mixed up society that has forgotten about us and/or hates us. We transsexuals, transitioning or not; need to remember that all activities in life need to be experienced. This helps create a sense of gender balance in us.

I know how you feel. I too have been concentrating on being a woman/female so hard and for so long (16 months seems like a long time to me) that sometimes I forget I used to be a guy! I also know how it feels if I find myself enjoying something traditionally viewed as mascaline, watching/enjoying an action adventure movie or an old Western (Clint Eastwood) or watching football, etc... I start to feel "weird" like I'm somehow betraying my "true-self" or something like that. I still love to scream in anger while watching my Detroit Lions lose on T.V.! Then I'll find myself feeling guilty about it, like, "I'm not supposed to do that," or "that's not very lady like!" It gets real bad when I find myself cursing or using bad language (I can be a real potty mouth, dropping "f-bombs" etc...) I've even been told by my sister to stop swearing because it's not "lady like."

So what are we supposed to do? I think that's going to happen from time to time. Us trans women have a unique situation here in life on this Earth. We have an opportunity to have lived life as both sex genders. Do you know how cool and absolutely awesome that is! So I say, embrace the moment. Go fishing and enjoy the heck out of it. If it makes you feel better, find a blue jean skirt you don't care that much about and go wearing that! The point is, like everyone's said here, girls can enjoy fishing, hunting, sports, etc... it's all in your mind that it's not feminine. Tell your mind to "shut up!" Enjoy your fishing trip!

Oh yeah, as far as your feelings towards your old friend are. Enjoy the feelings. He doesn't have to know. Obviously he probably would freak out if he knew and it might destroy the friendship. However; you could drop some subtle hints or clues, flirt with him a little, see how he responds? I don't know. Not sure. Hard call. But, no matter what, I say; enjoy the feelings. We're going to get those feelings from time-to-time with men we encounter (old friends, new friends, strangers, whatever) and I think it's best if we accept and embrace the feelings and try to enjoy them for what they are. A moment of sexual attraction.

Paulette

[ReineD]

Arbon, while I was reading your post my thoughts were the same as the other people who responded ... fishing is not gendered, so just go and have fun! Until I read your last line. If you do have feelings for him and you know that he won't return them, won't it be difficult to spend so much time alone with him? Also I remember from a past post that you and your wife have a platonic relationship, but does the love that you do share with her leave room for an intimate relationship with someone else? In other words, would she be OK with knowing that you are attracted to your friend? I've no doubt that your new relationship with your wife is complex, this is why I ask.

[arbon]

I understand what everyone is saying about stereotypes and that it is okay for women to do those things

I did not stop doing those things so much because I think women cannot do those things, but it is more how I think people perceive me. Around here where I live most everyone knew me as male - so keep living the life he lived, doing the things he did, its harder for people to accept me as a "her". For example last summer I got a call from one of my girl friends asking if I would go fishing with her husband because he could not find anyone else to go with him that day. To me it seemed like at some level she still saw me as just another one of the guys that could switch sides on a dime. Would she have asked any other woman to go spend a day with her husband? I doubt it.

I would love to find some outdoorsy women to do some of that stuff with but I have not met them yet. All the women I know only like doing that stuff if they are doing it with their husbands or boyfriends.


The guy I am talking about in the op - we have a lot of history together as guys. It feels weird to think of going on a fishing trip with him again, things are so different for me - what's it going to be like hanging out with him like that again?

@Reine - my relationship with my wife is complex. We have a real love for each other and a deep friendship, and we are committed to raising our daughter together. She knows I am attracted to men and she expects that I will not act on those feelings. But I still can't help thinking a lot about men.



Im ready to fish the clearwater

Nice. The clearwater is a bit to far for me though.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Arbon altho I don't fish I can relate to exactly your point..

here's what I think...

Its your life... live it...you are finally free to be yourself, live as yourself and make decisions for yourself (and deal with the consequences)

I have some buddies from business school...we have stayed close for 25 years.... they are good guys...but they are "guys guys"...golf, strip clubs, basketball, drinking and poker and cigars and more drinking.....we got together every year for 20+ years ...we really had fun

the five us have continued to get together.. they don't always give me the benefit of my gender...they slip up...they say some rude things...

IN my own life that is no big deal now...I am me...there is nothing they can say, nothing they can do, nothing they can even think to themselves that can change who I am and what I am (and how I live!!!!!)....

if you wanna fish.,..go fish!!! he may or may not treat you in a way that is more "one of the guys" but you will live and learn from it...just like you did when you went to the camp...

[Kathryn Martin]

To some extent it is difficult for me to follow some of what you have said because I have never had an interest in those types of activities. However, I have never attributed certain activities with gender, because frankly having been brought up in Europe I did not, as a child experience activities divided by gender especially not recreational ones.

Given your personal circumstances and your commitment to your wife and the expectations raised by your wife not to act on your attraction you would expose yourself to a situation in which something could happen. I know the force a man can have to whom you are attracted, by simply being himself. When a man exudes masculinity and you are vulnerable things could happen that might not be easily undone. One touch of him and you may end up blown away. It has happened to me.

In addition if he does not feel the same way that you do it will create a uncomfortable situation which may well end your friendship.

[Ann Louise]

I guess the only part I don't get is why anyone would want to fish.

'Cuz I get to hang out with my knockout-cute friend all day side-by-side in a very small boat :hugs:

[Rianna Humble]

I guess the only part I don't get is why anyone would want to fish. :strugglin

Perhaps some people prefer to drink their beer sitting in a small boat :devil:

[donnalee]

The only way to find out is to go.

"The gods do not deduct from woman's allotted span the hours spent in fishing." - Babylonian Proverb

[Megan G]

Arbon,

I say go also, if the invitation is sincere why not go and enjoy yourself. I am also into hunting, fishing and the outdoors and trust me it is not just a male sport. My wife hunts and fishs, my mother hunts and fishs, my mother inlaw fishs and many woman and girls in the area also enjoy the outdoors.

While it is true it is a male dominated pastime there are many women that enjoy it. While I am not as far along my journey as you are I have no intention of giving it up. It may slow down and the intensity may decrease but I will never give it up.

Trisha

[Nicole Erin]

I guess the only part I don't get is why anyone would want to fish. :strugglin
Yeah no doubt, wouldn't it be easier to go to the grocery or a seafood place? I don't mean like Long John Silver's, they SUCK. I mean it is like you get fried fish and it is nothing but crap they scooped out of the bottom of the deep fryer. GROADY!

As far as doing manly stuff, so what? Do what you want. I mean it might feel a bit weird but as most of us grew up in a male role, we just cannot escape everything manly. Kind of sucks. I mean like me and also this TG lady I am kind of seeing, we do industrial stuff.

For that friend you have feelings for, if you bring up anything just wait til after the trip. Don;t be on a boat and break out the Barry Mandalow CD. No really, DON'T. But just maybe talk. I doubt it is gonna ruin anything, just don't be pushy.

[rachael.davis]

Hi Arbon

There's a joke I heard in a dojo years ago
Before enlightenment chop wood, haul water, clean floor, sweat in training.
After enlightenment chop wood, haul water, clean floor, sweat in training in an enlightened manner.

I think the whole process of transitioning is becoming youself, and if you like fishing go fishing

[arbon]

We are going to but but waiting till march.