Question to the CDers who would date a man

[ReineD]

... or to anyone else, really, but mostly to the CDers who are attracted to men while dressed.




There have been several long and well attended threads asking about attraction to men while dressed. Many of the responses are positive. There is currently such a thread.

This is what puzzles me:

A lof of CDers say that they are not attracted to men while dressed so much as they're attracted to other CDers.

Question: By definition, a CDer is a male. Why do some people here make it sound as if CDers are not male?

Thanks in advance for all your responses! :)

[AllieSF]

Though I do not feel like I am a member of either group, I think that a little camouflage helps one get their mind around the experience to actually consider it and maybe even go through with it. Plus, how many straight guys out there really want to be with a TG (umbrella terminology)? Better chances for success with someone of like mind, I would think. Plus again, playing with someone who dresses like you do creating the fantasy of a lesbian relationship. That can be pretty convincing to some.

[Tracii G]

Great question Reine.
I have dated guys before in girl mode @ yes they knew I was a male and well aware is was a TG CD.
I was very attracted to both of them in guy mode too and they knew that.
Really hard to give a definitive answer about only being attracted to MtF CD's.
I can't wait to hear some replies to this question.

[Barbara Dugan]

I am gay and only attracted to masculine males and even CD's are males the femininity they project is a big turn off...sometimes I think that I am missing on the opportunity to date really nice persons that happen to be CD's too but is something I can't change

[Rachelakld]

For me, i like long hair, boobs and girlie looks. I would run away very quickly if a CD or any other male started to undress near me.

[Tracii G]

I have dated some FtM Cd's when I was in girl mode and that is interesting to say the least.
Swapping gender roles dating is fun.

[ArleneRaquel]

Even thought I date non crossdressing males, or so they say, I find many CD'ers very attractive & alluring. I don't date CD's but I have had many evenging out with a groups of Cd'ers while there are enfemme. I adore a local Cd'er and I would love to get intimate, but she is happily married and so far I have resisted all match ups with married males and have never dated a married male as far as I know.

[ReineD]

My question was about whether you all see CDers as men ... not really whether you've dated them while dressed or not dressed.

For those of you who are gay or genuinely bi (who are interested in men in boy mode too), then it is understandable that you would be attracted to CDs and non-CD men.

[Ressie]

There must be lesbians that don't find feminine lesbians attractive too. Yes Reine, if I went out with another crossdresser I would prefer it if we both kept most of our clothes on. I think a lot of guys really want an experience with someone that looks like a very attractive woman in every way except for crotch area. Feeling that you are really with a beautiful woman is very exciting and may make it easier to taste the forbidden fruit.

So to some, men with hair all over is a turn off. Men that are manly is a turn off. Men are also more aggressive sexually than most CDers. Two crossdressers together is more like two women together, at least in a fantasy world. In RL that may or may not be the case. I think this is semantics in a way. Everyone realizes there's a man under that skirt... I hope!

[Leah Lynn]

As near as I understand the sexuality thing, a TG/TS would make love to a man, but the man needs to recognise her as a woman. She would normally be turned off by a man wanting a man, albeit in a dress. She doesn't want a male partner being interested in her male appendage. I'm slightly different here, my woman within seems to be a lesbian. I would want a partner that wants to be considered a woman, as I would.

But (I know, starting a sentence with a conjunction!), the question was about a CD being interested in a CD. At that point I would hazard a guess that they're TG and don't know it, or maybe bi-curious, bi, or gay.

Leah

[gautier_nikolai]

Interesting question.I have wondered about that too sometimes.Men are very initially visually excited and stimulated and so i can understand why a CD who identifies as hetero might be initally sexually in another CD.

I identify as 99.99 percent homosexual as a male and i do find some drag kings or butch lesbians with short hair attractive initially.However, going any further i'm not sure and i'm pretty sure i wouldn't be able to find out either!:tongueout.Well maybe if she was bisexual.And i'm not really attracted physically to any male, however hot dressed up CDing either.I'm not totally sure why because he has all the necessary bits and pieces under his skirt.

However, i can't get my mind around how CDs who are heterosexual are attracted to males presenting as males when they CD.Maybe it is part of the fantasy of being a straight women that can be associated with the femininity many CDs present.Although, i believe them when i hear them say it.Sexuality is a weird fluid spectrum and not so easy to understand because it's so cerebral!

[Kate Simmons]

Good question Reine. Evidently some folks think something "magical" happens when they dress en femme. The physicality doesn't change but the thinking does I guess.:)

[MatildaJ.]

Question: By definition, a CDer is a male. Why do some people here make it sound as if CDers are not male?

I don't believe that there's really a gender binary, with women over here and men over there. I think our society constructs a gender binary, and most people fall in line.

But I think CDers are people who don't necessary fall entirely on the male side of that gender binary. We've had many threads where people point out that one of the reasons many women were initially attracted to their guys was because those guys were a little more tender, or artistic, or sensitive (or whatever) than the average guy. So while the CDer is a guy for the purposes of his medical and legal records, I think for sensual and sexual purposes, it makes more sense to think of the CDer as often residing somewhere in the middle between the two extremes of the gender binary.

[Soriya]

Great question but all yours are always great ReineD

Personally, I don't see CD's as men when they present as female. My thoughts on it are somewhat complex, scientific actually after research I have been doing that inadvertently connected to our world here. I won't go into detail so the thread doesn't derail but please feel free to PM me about it. :)

[MissVictoria]

Having discussed this with my wife just the other night, I can lend you my thoughts on this. I have been going to a local CD bar now for over a year on a weekly basis. I have been approached by both CDers and admiring men. My wife has asked if I would allow myself to be with either, and the answer I gave her is this: Being with a non-CD man would be "validating" my appearance and the effort I put forth to portray this side of me. I would not hesitate to go further with a man who does not dress, if I could get over the fact that I would be unfaithful to my wife. Being fussed over and treated like a lady is a dream of mine. I am attracted to the CD male because I appreciate the more feminine aspects of his look, and can still enjoy the man beneath with all of the goodie bits! A crossdressed man to me, is in my opinion, a man, with a feminine touch. I love the feel of pantyhose, and shaved legs, and playing with long hair, and if there are other parts to play with, so much the better. As an aside, I do have the blessings of my wife to proceed and explore, but I have not reached that point yet where I would go to the next step yet. I keep it simply to petting and simple touches with either men or CDers. My wife feels the same as me BTW. She loves when I let my self go and not shave for a while, because she likes running her hand through my chest hair and what not, but when shaved, she experiences a whole different sensation, what with the different textures and smells. I guess that's the best way to describe it:same playthings, different textures! I hope this helps.

[Ressie]

Why is it women don't want anything to do with CDs? We've been pronounced as men but women don't see it that way.

[ReineD]

Thanks everyone, for your answers so far! It's actually beginning to make sense. :p

Dee3, CDers are pronounced as men because this is their gender identity. If a person were to identify both with male and female characteristics, they'd be gender non-conforming (or gender fluid). And if they identified completely with the opposite sex, they'd be transsexuals.

Why don't women want anything to do with CDers? Some do (like me and other GGs in the forum), and some don't. I think it's a question of having traditional vs. non-traditional values, and also a question of education about this combined with time and exposure. Many women start out non-supportive and then change over time.


OK ... back to the thread topic! :)

[mirandacdgirl]

I am infact Attracted to CDs and TS because they appear Fem. I am also attracted to Non masculine guys but I am more attracted to women and cds,tv,fem fem fem!!!

[Ressie]

ReineD, you said in your OP that we are men. I thought I was on topic. Most women are disgusted with CDs, and many CDs are disgusted with manly men. Well I hope you find the answer you're looking for, because I'm sure you have a good reason to try to understand this.

[ReineD]

It's OK Dee, I understand your question. I just didn't want to begin a discussion about why some women are non-supportive.

So tell me what you think. Do you see CDers (not the Gender-Fluid or Transsexuals) as men or women?

The reason I want to understand this is simply because I am curious. Also judging by some of the answers in this thread, others have also asked themselves the same question.


I'm also hoping (hint-hint) that the CDers who did respond that they'd rather be with CDers than men, will put in their :2c: in this thread!

[Soriya]

I'm also hoping (hint-hint) that the CDers who did respond that they'd rather be with CDers than men, will put in their :2c: in this thread!

To answer this one directly, since I have no attraction to men, the male 'appearance', if I was going be with someone who did not have female plumbing, it would have to be a feminine CD/TG who looked like a GG. Of course this is based off thinking alone since I have never been in a position to have to decide.

[Beverley Sims]

Reine,
I think it is the clothes and the fact that CDers are sharing the same interest.
I once had a friend that was CD and my attraction was at a buddy level, between two guys basically.
We interacted as two girls would sharing clothes and makeup.
I had girlfriends and he did have a boyfriend that he used as an escort for going out.
My girlfriends would sometimes organise an escort for me to make the group even.
Usually it was someone we already knew.

[Shellycd12]

I do not see other CD'ers as male. It is the appearance and look for me. And yes I am attracted to men and CD'ers when dressed. I fantasize about the lesbian experience.

Shelly

[Lorileah]

MtF Cds who are attracted to MtF CDs are just like any other M who is attracted to CDs...it makes it easy to say "hey I ain't gay". Opposite of the men who will only date CDs over TSs...they want the part women don't have.

Hard to figure out what people think anyway. To answer your question Reine, yes, CDs are males. They have the equipment and it doesn't go away when you get in bed no matter how hard yo wish. I remember arguing (discussing?) how some here claim they are "lesbian" when they dress. I get teh concept but I think lesbians would have to argue the point. If you have the part and you USE the part...you are a straight man having sex with a woman. Maybe in your mind your are not but you are. You get the sensations and results of having that part. Conversely, if you are a CD and you have sex with another CD that is by definition homosexual intercourse, no matter what you are wearing. Best line someone used (and I think she is still here) is "Putting frosting on your head doesn't make you a cupcake"

My two recent forays (and yes I realize that I am not a CD...but a TS). A woman who I was interested in (yes, I am still interested in women...I know, strange huh?) wasn't interested in me as a guy, but makes advances now. I asked if she was interested now and she said "No I am not a lesbian. You are a girl!" But...I still have the parts....so I would be having straight sex right? Not in her eyes. She sees like many CDs here. She sees a woman. (And I like that, it is what I am, except, now the market of "straight" women is closed for me). And a man who was very attracted to me and no matter how often I told him he would not like it when the clothes came off, insisted that he saw me as a woman. I tried to explain how it would go down (sorry my bad) and he was adamant that it didn't matter...right up to the time when we were intimate and he kept saying "but I am straight...I am straight" I tried to tell him, "you aren't straight if you are in bed with me". well women will know EXACTLY when he became "straight" again and threw me out. Uh huh, when the hormones are up...you can overlook a lot of things

[Lynn Marie]

I have a considerable number of CD girlfriends. I always see them as female even though I'm quite well aware of their true identities. A few I've seen in drab, and yet when we're out together, they're girls. As far as I can tell, they all feel the same way about me! I don't feel this way about all the CDs I've met, not by a long shot, just my friends whom I've come to know and trust.

Would I date any of them? Absolutely. We're all friends. I'd be honored to escort any of them out in drab, and I'd be thrilled to be on the arm of any of them. We're out frequently as a bunch of girlfriends, what's the big difference? Do I sleep with my CD girlfriends? A lady never talks about such things.

[Melissa73]

if i can answer for myself.... as a cder, i dont feel like a woman! yes i love womens clothes, and like to look pretty. but i consider myself a man though and though. in fact with help of a local support group i myself have concluded that im happy as i aam.. incorporating my female clothes into main life. gender is after all only a mental issue.... notonly physical.

melissa

[docrobbysherry]

Maybe I can shed some lite on this subject, Reine. Because not only have I wondered about this subject in general, I've wondered about myself because I've been attracted to CD/trans girls and I'm straight!

Many years ago, I visited a girlieboy bar in Thailand in drab with an old male friend. One of them was particularly beautiful and fem and hung around us all nite. There was nothing about her that said, "male". Nothing. The fact that she may have had a penis turned me off, however.

Flash forward to an event I attended in LA earlier this year. I sat with a group of Tgirls. I had met a few before. However, I sat next to one I hadn't met before. And, she was very friendly. I'm pretty sure she came on to me. While not that attractive to me, she was so fem I couldn't help feeling something! It's hard for me to explain. She seemed so vulnerable. So sweet and yet sexy. The way she touched my arm and brushed against me when talking in my ear. She seemed so female to me at the time. She may have been drinking, but I wasn't. To say that I wasn't a bit turned on would be lying. It felt like I was sitting with a woman. Would I hang out with her, or another CD as fem seeming as her again? Yes, I enjoy the titillating feelings of being desired by a "woman".

My point being this: If CD/trans can act fem enuff, the male in many of us may respond. Even if we r straight. How far any of us go reacting to those impulses is a complete other subject!

[MatildaJ.]

CDers are pronounced as men because this is their gender identity. If a person were to identify both with male and female characteristics, they'd be gender non-conforming (or gender fluid).

Just because you and I divide the world up that way doesn't mean that's how the labels are used by most people. I think plenty of gender-fluid people call themselves cross-dressers instead, because much of the time they identify as male, even if some of the time they actually enjoy thinking of themselves as female or feminine. Let's say 80% of the time they feel 100% male, and 20% of the time they feel 100% female, then they never feel gender-fluid at all.

[Dalva]

I'm also hoping (hint-hint) that the CDers who did respond that they'd rather be with CDers than men, will put in their :2c: in this thread!

I'm one of those that fall into this category. To be honest, I can't explain why my leanings are such. While I find GG's very attractive, I find intimacy uncomfortable. I have had male/male gay experiences and while enjoyable, I don't think I could do so dressed enfemme. Maybe I could but unlikely. Early in my life as a cross dresser, I realised my attraction to others like me and I became comfortable with it. I have never really tried to figure it out. It doesn't matter.

But to answer your question, no I don't see CDers as men, but I know we are not women. I just see us people with the ability to embrace cross gender sensibilities. I think we all have something to share, maybe a heightened sense of humanity that strictly male and female persons don't see or refuse to see.


MtF Cds who are attracted to MtF CDs are just like any other M who is attracted to CDs...it makes it easy to say "hey I ain't gay".

Respectfully, Lorileah, I'm not sure I agree with this statement entirely. Yes, it may be true to a certain extent but I think it's generalizing. If you look at the various inclinations in the gay community, you'll see all sorts of preferences that many will seek out exclusively. for example, Emo twinks with Emo twinks. Daddies with twinks. Bears with bears. Leather men with leather men. Tops who only want bottoms and vice versa.

CD's who seek out other CD's may be just another category falling under the gay umbrella. I'm not saying this is always the case, but think it surely needs to be considered before we say that "Hey, at least I ain't gay" is the explanation.

With respect.

[ReineD]

I think plenty of gender-fluid people call themselves cross-dressers instead, because much of the time they identify as male, even if some of the time they actually enjoy thinking of themselves as female or feminine. Let's say 80% of the time they feel 100% male, and 20% of the time they feel 100% female, then they never feel gender-fluid at all.

No Jess, by Gender Non-Conformist I was referring to the people who do feel a mixture of genders all the time, no matter how they are dressed. They don't feel 100% male or 100% female, they genuinely see themselves as outside the male/female gender binary. If someone feels 100% male 80% of the time, and feels 100% female 20% of the time when they dress, then of course they are CDers. That's what CDers do.

Have a look at the Sticky of trans-related definitions from a world-wide organization that defines these things, the WPATH. There's a link to the actual PDF booklet ... (although they don't discuss percentages).

Anyway, sorry folks I didn't want to continue another definition battle ... I was just trying to answer Dee's question about women and CDers who by definition do have a male identity, vs. Gender Non-Conformists who don't have strictly a male gender identity, even though they both engage in cross-gender expression.



Thanks for putting in your :2c: Dalva! ... and everyone else too!!

[prene]

OK for me.
I am bi-curious as my transformation to 100% femminity.
Being with a guy is a curiosity in being a girl... I am not really interested in guys but being a girl with a guy.

I am interested in gg's and curious in just guys not cders.

[AmyGaleRT]

Reine, I'm not about to date anyone other than my fiancee, whether it be male, female, CD, TS, or whatever, but I may have some insight here.

I tend to treat people as what they present as, which is a carryover from my experience in Second Life (where all you see of a person is their avatar, which may be customized to the limit of their imagination, creativity, and available budget). Thus, for instance, in my meetup groups, where some of the people there may be just CDs and some may be TS, I see all of us there as women, because that's what we're presenting as. Similarly, everyone on this site that presents as female, I see as being a woman. (I've seen very few FtMs on here, but more over on Facebook. I view them all as men.) The fact that the person I'm looking at and talking to may actually have male chromosomes and organs that I can't see is not relevant; she's being a woman, so that's what she is, and (presuming I'm being Amy at the time) I will try to relate to her as one woman would relate to another. I would hope that she, in turn, would extend the same courtesy to me.

Maybe that's just my viewpoint, but it might explain what you're seeing.

- Amy

[cdmorganashley]

Although a CD is a male I think if you plan to be sexual with the person while they are acting as a female it kind of puts them in an in between category... For example, I am bi but the reasons I enjoy being with a male or with a female I consider different, and similarly I enjoy being with a CD as a different experience than it is to be with a masculine male or feminine female... all that being said though I really don't try to put labels of any kind of people because really every person is unique in some way, and I think categorizing people can be limiting...

[NicoleScott]

Reine, must we add "attracted to" to the already-long list of terms forum members can't agree on?
Yes, I'm attracted to beauty, male or female underneath. But it's just the image, not the person. Why can't some people understand this, instead of saying if you're attracted to a CDer, you're gay? "Attracted to" doesn't necessarily mean "sexually attracted to", but it could for people so inclined (they may be inclined but would rather be horizontal - haha). It could mean simply "I like how you look. I like that feminine image you are projecting whether you are really female or not. That doesn't mean I want to have sex with you".

[Marleena]

If someone feels 100% male 80% of the time, and feels 100% female 20% of the time when they dress, then of course they are CDers. That's what CDers do.


Ummm Reine you forgot the Cders that are adamant that they are and feel male 100% of the time but just crossdress and even might go out in public enfemme.:D

They are out there.:)

[Ressie]

So tell me what you think. Do you see CDers (not the Gender-Fluid or Transsexuals) as men or women?

The reason I want to understand this is simply because I am curious. Also judging by some of the answers in this thread, others have also asked themselves the same question.


I'm also hoping (hint-hint) that the CDers who did respond that they'd rather be with CDers than men, will put in their :2c: in this thread!

Yes Reine, I'm glad that you're bringing this up for the benefit of many CDs as well as your own curiosity.

I see CDs for what they are. We have a female appearance to varying degrees but only while dressed. As more of a fetish type there are many different things that can get me aroused. That would be all the fem stuff that makes a man appear to be a woman. Eliminate all that and we have the naked body of a male or female. (at this point the GG would be my choice)

As docrobbysherry alluded to some CDs are really good at playing the part of being female, while others are obviously men in women's clothing. This makes a big difference in my view because it's the fantasy that is desired. The fantasy is "we are two girls making love". The other fantasy is, "I'm a girl being seduced by a man".

So does it boils down to how a CD wants to feel sexually? Do I want to feel like a woman that attracts men or a feel like a lesbian? Of course either way it's two guys together, but the goal is to realize one's fantasy. My only attempt at this didn't turn out anywhere near what I envisioned and hoped for.

[audreyinalbany]

Reine, your threads always generate so many responses, probably because you are so well loved by this community!

Anyway, my 2 cents: not the least bit attracted to other cd'ers; I just wish I had a small group of GG's with which to share the feminine side of myself

[MysticLady]

A lof of CDers say that they are not attracted to men while dressed so much as they're attracted to other CDers.

Question: By definition, a CDer is a male. Why do some people here make it sound as if CDers are not male?


Reine, I, as a man, am attracted to beauty. If either a man or a woman appeals too me then, I respond. Attraction is a preference. Some men and woman are attracted too Big Muscular Hairy men and some are attracted too smooth, soft, hairless thin men. When a man presents as a woman dresses, then, the appeal is increased. If you mix sexuality into the picture then, it becomes erotic. IMHO:D

[Trishpdxcd2]

So tell me what you think. Do you see CDers (not the Gender-Fluid or Transsexuals) as men or women?

The reason I want to understand this is simply because I am curious. Also judging by some of the answers in this thread, others have also asked themselves the same question.

Intellectually I see cd's as a mixture of both but emotionally I "feel" them as a woman. I also am drawn to other cd's because of our connection, both being cd's, members of that tribe so to speak. And I am very attracted to cd's, more so than men though I can be attracted to men as well but primarily when I am Trish. GG's, well I am attracted to them all the time.

[Lorileah]

CD's who seek out other CD's may be just another category falling under the gay umbrella.

Totally agree and that is the point. There are some here who are "confused" as to their orientation and when they say they are only attracted to CDs and not men they add the caveat that they don't think it is gay because the object of their attraction isn't presenting as a male (bad thought but if they were at a Furry convention and they had sex would they say they are only attracted to teddy bears while dressed?). I don't care who you are attracted to (personally I have attractions for both sexes but I am more picky about men...I have a standard image there, and sorry girls, it isn't a CD), but when you KNOW that under the clothing there is a penis, then you have to KNOW that if you follow through the sex won't be heterosexual. So yes it is under the gay umbrella. Every man I have dated falls under that umbrella. hey may disagree and they do verbalize it. But they are men who are attracted to males (because so far every one has wanted the male part) who appear female but justify it in their minds as NOT being gay (or technically Bi) because the see a woman. My record so far? Two who swore they were straight and when push came to shove freaked out ( the illusion disappeared and their insecurities arose), two who broke up when they were told I was going to transition (actually said they wanted a CD with "working" parts) and one who still loves me as I am and as I will be (but I don't love him). So the first two were straight with fantasies they could not fulfill. The next two are bi even though they won't say it. The last is polyamorous and bi and proud of both :)

Ummm Reine you forgot the Cders that are adamant that they are and feel male 100% of the time but just crossdress and even might go out in public enfemme.:D
Who, if they dated another CD would be...bi...right?

I have to make a note, there is a line between fantasizing about being with a guy and "wanting" to be with a man. we all fantasize, I do about certain female movie stars. It will never happen but I dream about it. If when you dress you want to be with a man and pursue that line (and please don't say so you can get the whole woman experience...it ain't gonna happen), then you have bisexual or gay tendencies.

[Chickhe]

I don't believe people's orientation changes when dressed or not. Except maybe if you are TS, maybe your orientation is 'straight' so that would change what gender you are attracted to depending on what gender you live as. But, for myself I am straight, male who CDs and my attraction is still towards woman when I am dressed or not. But, I want to add, that at the same time, there is a fantasy element, I could go on a date with a male if it was purely for the experience of feeling feminine. We are talking conservative 'first date' here...having someone hold doors open, pull your chair out dance with you... There is no sexual attraction though, its all about feeling good, living a role for a few hours...for me anyways,.

[Marleena]

Who, if they dated another CD would be...bi...right?

Only if they had sex. In other words only if they act on their fantasy or sexual attraction but then there is experimentation, if they try it and don't like it they are still straight right?

Some here are way too quick to judge others. Not meaning you either Lorileah, you get it. I don't want to call people out.

[JoanneCross]

I have had "dates" with other cd'ers where we were dressed and we sat around drinking coffee and talked about clothes and femme things. On the other hand While I was dressed the one time the cd'er had adjusted my dress and the feel of their hand brushing my breast (I dont wear forms) I actually got aroused and it made me curious about being felt up by another person while dressed.

This went on as we live close by and we did visit fairly regular. While we were talking the one time I had said that I was curious about being felt up as a woman and he admitted that he was attracted to me while I was dressed and he told me he was bi-sexual. So to answer your question I feel that if you had sex with a man or crossdresser and didn't like it your were bi-curious, if you liked it it would make you bi-sexual. Either way no one should really label you or judge you.

[Girl]

I've had a few very enjoyable experiences with men while I've been dressed. I've never been with a CD but I think it would be a lot of fun!

To answer your question, it could be because I think of myself totally as a girl when I'm dressed. And actually most of the rest of the time too! :)

[NicoleScott]

Now we have to add "date" to the list of ambiguous words. Does it mean "go out with" or "have sex with"?

On another thread long ago, I posted that it would be fun to have a CDer friend to go out with, either both of us en femme or only one of us, taking turns being the girl with a man on a "date" (that is: "go out with"). I would feel more secure than going out alone, and would be happy to be the one to make the other feel more secure. An arrangement for practical reasons, and it could be a lot of fun. My gosh, it amazes me why so many people want to label others as gay, having never met the person nor knowing what's going on in their head.

[Lucy_Bella]

My gosh, it amazes me why so many people want to label others as gay, having never met the person nor knowing what's going on in their head.

Yes it is amazing..I find this place very confusing sometimes with definitions..I can only speak for myself at an attempt to answer the O.P.s question.. I find femininity attractive this is why I have the Fetish with dressing up, it's the attraction..I do not find anything ( I mean anything ) attractive about masculinity so a CDer may come across first as attractive in some cases to me, until I find out that she's a CDer ,then the attraction is gone..

Hetro sexual by definition is someone who is sexually attracted to the opposite sex it doesn't differ in Gender or Gender expression ( meaning appearing femme) ..I.E. I can find myself sexually attractive to a FTM not because of the "Gender Expression" but because of the "Sexual Preference" ..But because I am "Attracted " to Feminine features ( but not being Feminine ) ...I actually did date a FTM and didn't know until a year later.. I liked going out and doing guy stuff with her/him ( like a Tom Boy ) She didn't care what I wore I didn't care what she wore..

[Celina]

On another thread long ago, I posted that it would be fun to have a CDer friend to go out with, either both of us en femme or only one of us, taking turns being the girl with a man on a "date" (that is: "go out with")
That is really a fun and fantastic idea! I would love to be able to do the same, but i'm quite sure that CD'ers is a huge minority in Denmark, so it'll be hard I guess. I'd love to join you, if I lived in your part of the world :)


I find this place very confusing sometimes with definitions

I agree! It really can be confuesing sometimes :confused:

[nethiker55]

I think you have several emotions at work here and lots of people confuse them. I personally make no bones about being bi and maybe that helps me to see some things a little more clearly than some. The consumate CD'er wants to present and as such be thought of as female and therefor sometimes desires males to find them attractive and would in that case find their attraction as attractive. I find CD's very attractive and always have, the more feminine the better. I also find some males attractive but the illussion the CD presents makes the prospect of being intimate for me a little bit more palatable and I think most would agree with that. Although in a way it makes me enfemme a lesbian :) I guess. I am so confused now!!!

[ReineD]

Thank you so much, everyone for your answers!!! Keep 'em coming! :hugs:




"Attracted to" doesn't necessarily mean "sexually attracted to"

I completely understand what you are saying. My eyes know when I see an attractive (beautiful) woman, even though I am not sexually attracted to her. But, the threads that I refer to (asking CDers if they would be with men), mostly imply being with men sexually. I just didn't get what some members meant, when they said no to men, but yes to CDers (not post-op TSs). Also, I do know that some members here would only want to have a non-sexual date with a man in order to validate their feelings of femininity ... but this is different than the men who would have sex with a CDer and not "men".


This makes a big difference in my view because it's the fantasy that is desired. The fantasy is "we are two girls making love". The other fantasy is, "I'm a girl being seduced by a man".

This.

I think this is the fundamental reason underlying many of the answers here. CDers who do prefer having sex with CDers rather than "men", are giving in to their fantasies of being with a beautiful woman (who also has a male body part), since everyone knows that CDers have male body parts?

[paulaprimo]

i like masculine men. cd'ers might be men, but presenting as women do not peak my interest :)

[Lorileah]

In other words only if they act on their fantasy or sexual attraction but then there is experimentation, if they try it and don't like it they are still straight right?


well maybe a little bent. And once you have tasted forbidden fruit... :heehee: There is an old joke, just because you drove a race car once does not mean they will cal you a race car driver, but have sex once with a man one time and you are gay forever ....




I feel that if you had sex with a man or crossdresser and didn't like it your were bi-curious, if you liked it it would make you bi-sexual. Either way no one should really label you or judge you.

:thinking: So if you had sex with a woman and you didn't like having sex with that woman...you would be hetero-curious, even though maybe there was another woman somewhere who could knock your socks off?

I bring this up because I have been with a woman who wasn't very good at sex. She complained and she didn't participate much. Don't get me wrong, I still enjoyed MYSELF but could not wait to leave. OTOH I had a GF who could keep me going for hours and hours and still wanted more. Also I have been with men who were not much fun at all (more common than a woman) but then I have been with a couple of guys who I would live with for ever too.

I understand what you are saying and I sort of agree. Some people won't say they don't like something until they try it. But I disagree with the tense of the statement. You are probably still bi-curious just not practicing :)

[Ciara09]

I like to see other men crossdressed, the more passable and feminine they are the more "attractive" they look to me. Which is to say, the closer that they look to real women, the more fun I have from looking at them.

But that said I don't think I'm really strongly "attracted" to crossdressers, I think it's more about watching another man fulfill my fantasy. Especially since I don't crossdress at all anymore, seeing someone else do it is the closest I can get to it.

And based my own experiences and some of the stuff I've read here, I think if youre a a man who is physically attracted exclusively to feminine traits and behavior, you're effectively straight. If you see those traits and behaviors on a cder and you're attracted to them, you're still straight. If it comes to the point of having sex with a cd, it will probably not be a satisfying as sex with a gg, but I don't know cause I've never done it.

I used to think cd fantasies and admiration was coming from some repressed homosexuality that I was afraid to admit to because I was so afraid of being gay for most of my life. But once I accepted myself as cd'r and really opened my mind to the possibility of being gay, I realized I was straight. I pretty much knew who I was all along but as cd'r it can be hard to define your own identity.

[Ressie]

I agree with Lorileah. I've had lots of women when I was younger, but only a couple of experiences with men. Some people are just great lovers no matter what gender they are. As Jimi said "are you experienced"? Lovers with experience usually know where and how to touch.

[Tina_gm]

My question was about whether you all see CDers as men ... not really whether you've dated them while dressed or not dressed.Reine, my wife has asked me about this, how do I perceive the other members on this site. Ultimately I know that the cd'ers are men. Personally, I don't get too caught up in it all, as I basically just view the cd'ers as people similar to me when it comes to the fact they cd. So, it is a commonality and because of it is why I am now a member here myself.


Personally, the more feminine, the more I am attracted. While there are many on here who do present well, I would always be attracted to women. CDing is not a sexual thing for me. When the clothes come off I would only want a GG, even if I was single. And when it comes to anything sexual, I revert back to my birth gender.

There have been a couple of times where I think I have used a fem pronoun on here, a couple where perhaps it was used in a response to a post I have made. And that is fine with me. My wife only once that I can think of actually used a fem pronoun. (she has joked and used one many times) That one time I think was also out of a jealousy of a sorts. When we attend outdoor parties and picnics, I am always requested to make a potato salad. Apparently people like it a lot. So, once after such a request, she says afterword, "oh just another request for a salad from the salad queen, she'll do it" "She then says, I can't believe I just said that" A fem pronoun does not upset me at all. It fits, just as a male pronoun does. I guess on here, it seems the same to me when communicating with others.

[DarciB]

Couldn't agree more with Lorileah, been there, done that. After dressing for awhile, I felt a strong urge to experience myself as a woman with a man. The first few encounters were kind of "iffy", eventually I came across a man that really wanted to experience a "special" lady like me and it was very special and fulfilling for me. I had dreamed about it for so long, wanted it, feared it, desired it, despited it, but I knew until I actually experienced it, I wouldn't and couldn't really know the woman within me. In retrospect, not for everyone, but I have no regrets and I am glad that I had the courage to go to the place and meet myself as a real woman.

[MysticLady]

Another Man question.

Hell Yes, I would wipe that poor soul out.:heehee:

[ReineD]

You're not reading the thread, Mystic. With all due respect, I didn't ask who you are attracted to. Frankly, I don't care.

I wanted to know why, in all the "Do you want to be with men" threads, a lot of members here say that they much prefer crossdressers to men. A crossdresser is a man, so the statement didn't make sense to me. Now it does, after having read the responses in this thread. It's just all a fantasy. CDers do know that other CDers are men.

[MysticLady]

Reine, A crossdresser is a man, yes I agree. A man that beautifies himself just as a GG would also portray a beauty that is alluring. I guess "I" am a "sucker" for beauty. It doesn't matter if a man or woman portrays it. For some, it is a fantasy, for others, they're living it.

[MatildaJ.]

I wanted to know why, in all the "Do you want to be with men" threads, a lot of members here say that they much prefer crossdressers to men. A crossdresser is a man, so the statement didn't make sense to me. Now it does, after having read the responses in this thread. It's just all a fantasy. CDers do know that other CDers are men.

I don't understand your word choice. If a CDer feels male 80% of the time, but feels female 20% of the time (while dressed), and other CDers know that, then when CDers say "I'm attracted to women and to CDers when they dress female," that means they're attracted to people-who-feel-and-look-female. I don't see why you insist on calling those CDers-who-feel-and-look-female "men", when for that 20% of the time (when they feel female), it seems like they are not men, but either women or some intermediary gender-fluid identity.

In this other thread, you wrote: "gender is a great deal more complex than black/white male/female, there's all this other stuff in between."
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?201702-a-little-lost-and-begging-for-help
So why in this thread do you keep telling us that CDers ARE men as if that's just obvious and uncontroversial. Some CDers always feel like men, but some feel like women when they dress, and if they feel like women, why do you say they ARE men?

[ReineD]

Jess, first, they don't say "I'm attracted to CDs when they dress female", they say (in the particular threads that I refer to) "I'm more attracted to a CD than a man". This seems paradoxical. Second, I call them men because they identify as men. If they didn't, they'd be TS or Gender Non-Conforming, but even then the latter is not a woman ... nor a man, for that matter.

And yes, gender is complex. :)

[Lexi_83]

This is what puzzles me:

A lof of CDers say that they are not attracted to men while dressed so much as they're attracted to other CDers.

Question: By definition, a CDer is a male. Why do some people here make it sound as if CDers are not male?

Thanks in advance for all your responses! :)
Fair question and probably 10 people have already said what I'm going to say. In my opinion it's that some people do not differentiate between gender and sexual identity, or they consider sexual identity to be binary.

This isn't just the straight world, as you see gay men constantly talking about tops and bottoms and Lesbians talking about butch and femme. Some of my lesbian friends feel very pressured to dress, look and act in a particular way by their peers.

Perhaps some other cultures accept the idea of a continuum of sexual roles or gender association, but this is not one of them.


I bring this up because I have been with a woman who wasn't very good at sex. She complained and she didn't participate much. Don't get me wrong, I still enjoyed MYSELF but could not wait to leave. OTOH I had a GF who could keep me going for hours and hours and still wanted more. Also I have been with men who were not much fun at all (more common than a woman) but then I have been with a couple of guys who I would live with for ever too.:)And I wish the fun ones would wear a lapel pin or something! The sorting is so time consuming....

[MatildaJ.]

I call them men because they identify as men.

Me, I call them whatever they want to be called at the moment. If a person is presenting as a woman and gives a female name, then I presume that female pronouns are appropriate for the moment (unless I've been told otherwise). And if someone else leaned over and asked me "is that person a woman?" I would say yes and change the subject. Would you say: "No, that's a man dressed as a woman"?

[Lorileah]

Usually when addressing people in this forum the feminine pronoun is the correct one (and a certain Reine chastised me once in a thread about Chaz Bono ;) Wonder if she remembers?), HOWEVER Reine has a very good point. When a man makes a point to explain that the clothes do not make him feel feminine or that he doesn't change personalities, then I think addressing them as a male pronoun is not out of line. The problem is making sure "he" has made that determination. So when a member says "I am a man but I want to have sex with a CD" responding to "him" would be appropriate. Just make sure you know he wants to be seen as a man in women's clothing.

[Lucy_Bella]

I am one of those who does not like to be called her or she..I don't even like to be called Lucy for that matter and it wasn't my original name on her.. My original name is a closed account and I used this name here because I caught so much crap from my old name.. That reminds me ..I need to request a name change :)

[ReineD]

No Lori, I don't remember about Chaz. :p

And here's a twist. When I was first with my SO, I didn't even want to call him by his male name when he was presenting male, just in case s/he just happened to be feeling internally feminine at that moment. lol. It took me about a year and a half to be comfortable using his male name in male mode. I never had a problem using her female name when she was dressed. :)

But yeah ... I agree if a CDer is dressed it's best to use feminine pronouns. Also, using the right pronouns with the presentation is one thing, but assuming that CDers who dress as women identify as women is quite another. If they do identify as women they are not CD, they are TS.

If I say I'm duck, it doesn't make me a duck. :There's a big difference between being TS, being Gender Non-Conforming, and being a CD.

[MysticLady]

Would you say: "No, that's a man dressed as a woman"?

Hi Jess, That would be calling a spade, spade. Wouldn't it? Or are we all just sugar coating things?


If they do identify as women they are not CD, they are TS.
If I say I'm duck, it doesn't make me a duck. :There's a big difference between being TS, being Gender Non-Conforming, and being a CD.

I believe I see a contradiction here. With all due respect, body wise, there is no difference, their mentality would be the only difference.


As a CDer, I have seen and dealt w/ men that desire me. It's a wonderful feeling to be desired either by a woman or a man. Another GG "insight" that I'm learning:D. I, in turn, find "men" that dress and beautify themselves as women do, to be desirable also. I know what they are and I know what I am, hence my HS thread. So, I have no problem saying that for me, men that are feminine, are desirable too me. Am I wrong in my thinking, please advise.

[Angie G]

When seing some of the CDer's here I dont really think of them as male. But I'm not attracted to them.:hugs:
Angie

[ReluctantDebutant]

I kind of have a different take on this issue. For me I see it not as an attraction to the Cross-dresser but to Cross-dressing. In an algebra problem to solve for X you have to eliminate all other variables. If you take the man out of the dress he is no longer attractive. What was attractive was the act of dressing. To a CDer seeing cross-dressing done well can stir highly charged emotions such as envy or aspiration. From my own experience I believe cross-dressing is rooted in ones sex-drive whether or not the individual CDer does anything fetishistic or feels fetishistic about their cross-dressing. The act or just the thought of a man appearing as a woman in itself alone is the source of attraction.

Have you ever come across TG captioned pictures or photos? Pictures of very attractive GG models or the millions of "selfies" that flood the internet posted along side a short two paragraph story about how the picture is of some guy transformed into a woman. The picture of the woman alone is very attractive but add the story with the TG element and it gains an extra level of fascination to the CDer's mind. A neat test to have would be to have a man and a woman with an identical attractive appearance. Have them dressed in the same clothes and made up in the same style make-up and see who would rate more among CDers. I am sure the woman word attract them all but the man would earn extra simply because the act of cross-dressing strikes a certain unknown cord in us.

Just a thought.

[ReineD]

Thanks, RelunctandD ... it's an interesting thought!

[AbigailAlexis]

I am attracted to the feminine both in form and action, in myself and others.

I've been frustrated with society as of late for putting restrictions on who someone should love or marry. For me it's like this: I'm attracted to girls that are feminine and portray a female shape, I'm attracted to tgirls that are feminine and portray a female shape, I'm attracted to CD's that are feminine and portray a female shape. I've even been mildly interested in boys who are feminine in action. I won't limit who I like or love or feel attraction towards based on the gender they were assigned at birth, rather that to which they associate now even if its only a part time association. Hence I definitely do find some of the CD's here quite attractive. You can label me as Bi if it's easier to put a label on it, but that doesn't fully express what I am.

Honestly I've always gotten along better with girls and at least somewhat feminine guys than anyone else. I've never been great with the whole man's man thing even for friends. Everyone (guys and girls) are somewhere on the m-f gender line and I'm attracted to those toward the female end.

Even my college roommate who to most would seem to be the mans-man was never that to me, and I wasn't attracted to him as more than a great friend. But we definitely had many conversations that were far less than masculine.

[Girl]

Hell Yes, I would wipe that poor soul out.:heehee:

LOL! That sounds like fun! :)

[Marcelle]

Hi Reine,

Firstly I am not in the category that does not find CDers attractive (sorry girls). I am straight and love the ladies. However, I can see from a cognitive perspective how it can become confusing.

We are visual creatures. Specifically, we see what we see and on first glance if you we are not 100 percent sure we fill in the gaps. So for those of us like myself who are not passable, on first blush the average person will see long hair, femme clothes and think . . . girl. If that person processes further they might then see, heavy foundation, slight beard shadow, strong jaw line . . . boy.

Okay, you are probably saying "Isha, what does this have to do with my post?". I will relay a personal experience when I was with my first girlfriend. We were out at a gay/TG bar and a very beautiful woman was flirting with me . . . nothing about her made me process . . . boy. My girlfriend was shall we say "quite open" and suggested we all get together . . . so for an 18 year guy whose first sexual experience was exactly a month prior this was a fantasy. As the play heated up, the goods did not match the package so . . . end game. Did I suspect she was TG MTF? Perhaps. Was I curious to see if maybe I could? Perhaps again. However, in the end, I could not transcend once I processed . . . boy.

I agree with Dalva from an earlier post. If I had homosexual leanings, I would most likely would have continued to explore. In the end, the image may appear "girl" but the plumbing is "boy". Unless you find men attractive on some level, no amount of fantasy is going get past that.

My two cents.

Hugs

Isha

[Robbin_Sinclair]

You're not reading the thread, Mystic. With all due respect, I didn't ask who you are attracted to. Frankly, I don't care.

I wanted to know why, in all the "Do you want to be with men" threads, a lot of members here say that they much prefer crossdressers to men. A crossdresser is a man, so the statement didn't make sense to me. Now it does, after having read the responses in this thread. It's just all a fantasy. CDers do know that other CDers are men.

A CD is a man like me dressing in the way I want to dress. Would I like to make love to a person like me? Yes. I always sought that in a woman.

Another person on this thread used the phrase, "probably still bi-curious just not practicing." Yes, I am very curious and yes, I'm deathly afraid of practicing. It can't do my marriage and my life any good.

I'm bi-curious for a man with a smile who dresses like a woman and feels like me. There, I've said it. That said, isn't this an extreme form of vanity, self love -- one of those seven Christian deadly sins a/k/a Buddhist "negative mental formations"?

[sara.s]

This is what puzzles me:

A lof of CDers say that they are not attracted to men while dressed so much as they're attracted to other CDers.

Question: By definition, a CDer is a male. Why do some people here make it sound as if CDers are not male?

Thanks in advance for all your responses! :)

A counter-question to ponder about.. Would a woman consider herself bisexual if she dated a cd'er even though a cd'er is a male? Why don't typical women not want a cd'er as a cd'er is still, by defn, a male?

[Marcelle]

A counter-question to ponder about.. Would a woman consider herself bisexual if she dated a cd'er even though a cd'er is a male? Why don't typical women not want a cd'er as a cd'er is still, by defn, a male?

Hi Sara. I asked my wife this exact same question when we started exploring intimacy with me dressed. She said that at the end of the day she knows there is guy below the clothing and she is not fooled into thinking I am a girl. Clothing is the packaging, the contents are what count. Plain old guy/gal fun with no illusions or lesbian fantasies.

However, if my wife all of a sudden suggested we explore intimacy with another woman or a FtM CDer, and she became intimate with him/her then yes she would be most likely bisexual or have leanings in that direction.

Hugs

Isha

[NicoleScott]

I kind of have a different take on this issue. For me I see it not as an attraction to the Cross-dresser but to Cross-dressing. In an algebra problem to solve for X you have to eliminate all other variables. If you take the man out of the dress he is no longer attractive. What was attractive was the act of dressing. To a CDer seeing cross-dressing done well can stir highly charged emotions such as envy or aspiration. From my own experience I believe cross-dressing is rooted in ones sex-drive whether or not the individual CDer does anything fetishistic or feels fetishistic about their cross-dressing. The act or just the thought of a man appearing as a woman in itself alone is the source of attraction.

RD, you break it down pertty well. If you're no longer attracted to the man when he's not en femme, then it wasn't the man you were attracted to, but something else. You suggest it's the act of CDing. While the act of CDing has always been interesting to me, I am more interested in...and attracted to...the finished product of the act of CDing. I'm attracted to beauty, whether GG or CDer. It's a visual thing and removed from the person, personality, sex, or gender beneath. Those things that I find glamorous, pretty, sexy, exciting, and arousing in GG's I see the same way in CDers. Yes, I'm pretty superficial about CDing.

[ReineD]

A counter-question to ponder about.. Would a woman consider herself bisexual if she dated a cd'er even though a cd'er is a male? Why don't typical women not want a cd'er as a cd'er is still, by defn, a male?

This is an easy one for me to answer. I was enamored with my SO before I knew about the CDing. And when s/he told me, I was open minded enough and had a big enough crush on him to not immediately take it that s/he wasn't for me. I was willing to learn. But, had I known that s/he was bigender before having fallen in love, I likely would have moved on. I simply did not understand enough about gender non-conformity then.

[NicoleScott]

So tell me what you think. Do you see CDers (not the Gender-Fluid or Transsexuals) as men or women?

I SEE CDers as women but I KNOW they're men.

[ReluctantDebutant]

Nicole, I see what you mean and I agree. The portraying of a feminine image is key. I feel I should revise it to say that its not just about the Cross-dressing. I find that much of being a MtoF CDer is about being enamored with women, feminine beauty, etc... So a GG does not need to do too much to earn a CDer's attention. But for the topic of a man to gain that same attention he has to present a very feminine finished product. But the only way he could get there is by Cross-dressing.

[Brooklyn]

I've observed in nightclubs that the men (CD or otherwise) who are attracted to CDers are also attracted to pre-op TS's. Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference unless you ask. But CDers are male, and TS's are female, right? Doesn't this indicate that what interests trans-ams and some CDers has nothing to do with gender identity, but simply the female physical presentation with the male genitalia? If not, please enlighten me on what these folks are after!

[ReineD]

Ashley, it makes sense that if someone has a preference for CDers over GGs or men who do not dress, then it means they like someone who presents as a woman, but with that added bit of anatomy that a GG doesn't have. Which can really put a CDer in a quandary if she wants to be seen as a GG, doesn't it? ... unless the CD is in it for the sex?

Again, thanks for your responses, everyone!

[Erica2Sweet]

Once I began to better understand how gender identity and attraction work for those of us who blur gender lines, I realized what I think a lot of us simply refuse to admit. It is that those who find men attractive when they are in femme mode also find men attractive in boy mode, they simply do not allow themselves to admit it in order to protect the male ego and keep it as intact as possible.

A lot of CDers will argue with this until they're blue in the face, but I think many simply do not realize how their subconscious works to protect the ego, and honestly, most of the time, they do feel internally as though they are being honest with regard to their non-attraction to the male form while in drab mode. But, if those individuals did some real, unfettered soul-searching, I personally am convinced they would find that the girly clothes they are wearing are just a motivator to become more sexually charged (aroused) and thus more open to, and responsive to, sexual stimuli. Being in girl mode very easily becomes an excuse to be OK with being into guys, because the excuse of "having a girly side" is often enough to protect the ego, if one negotiates the concession properly with their subconscious.

I found that once I let go of this, and believe me, it was a struggle, then I realized I was correct in my suspicion, and also that the pool of people that I can be attracted to grew by nearly 100%. It's also nice to, for once, be able to be honest about seeing a cute guy and not having all the internal negative noise going on... Ahh, sweet freedom!

[Girl]

I found that once I let go of this, and believe me, it was a struggle, then I realized I was correct in my suspicion, and also that the pool of people that I can be attracted to grew by nearly 100%. It's also nice to, for once, be able to be honest about seeing a cute guy and not having all the internal negative noise going on... Ahh, sweet freedom!

Erica you explain it perfectly in a way which I couldn't because of my English. It's exactly how I feel! When I see cute guys, it's a wonderful feeling not to resist their cuteness! :)

[Mistress Roxy]

I'm attracted to beauty, whether GG or CDer. It's a visual thing and removed from the person, personality, sex, or gender beneath. Those things that I find glamorous, pretty, sexy, exciting, and arousing in GG's I see the same way in CDers. Yes, I'm pretty superficial about CDing.

Perhaps, this is the key for enjoying. Be pretty and feel attractive is more important for many of us, GG's and Cds. Since we were children, we found beauty is deeply associated to the classical concept of femininity

[Marcelle]

... I realized what I think a lot of us simply refuse to admit. It is that those who find men attractive when they are in femme mode also find men attractive in boy mode, they simply do not allow themselves to admit it in order to protect the male ego and keep it as intact as possible.

... being in girl mode very easily becomes an excuse to be OK with being into guys, because the excuse of "having a girly side" is often enough to protect the ego, if one negotiates the concession properly with their subconscious.

Hi Erica. I would agree on a fundamental level with your observations. If a CDer finds men attractive in femme mode, they most likely find men attractive in "boy" mode. But this is a function of sexuality (homosexual / bi-sexual) underpinnings not gender identity. Yes it is plausible that the CDer my be TS and thus it could be gender identity but that is not always the case.

Protecting the male ego . . . plausible as long as the homo/bi-sexual feelings are being repressed. If they are not, then ego is not an issue and the CDer will most likely explore relationships.

I don't think it is as simple as I am dressed girly so I can now go after guys. I dress very girly and I have to say . . . I like the ladies and that is it. No repression, no desires, no fantasy. Just a guy who likes to dress like a woman from time to time.

My two cents.

Hugs

Isha

[Erica2Sweet]

...I don't think it is as simple as I am dressed girly so I can now go after guys. I dress very girly and I have to say . . . I like the ladies and that is it. No repression, no desires, no fantasy. Just a guy who likes to dress like a woman from time to time...

I knew that not much time would pass before someone would come by and assert their hetero-only feelings on the matter. :) It's great that you do know yourself well. I thought I did also, up until less than a year ago when I started to look at my attractions and realized something internally wasn't gelling.

Also, just for the record, I'm in no way insinuating that ALL CDers are repressing an attraction to men. That's not at all what I wrote above.

[kellibra]

strong attraction to femininity, imagining living vicariously as a woman experiencing her sexuality is what triggers it all for me. does not really matter i think what form this assumes as long as 'she' passes well and convincingly.

[AndreaCD1963]

For me, as a bi male, I'm attracted to both GG's and GM's ... and a cd is still a GM, with all the parts that go along with that. My personal preference with regards to men, is a masculine man - I can be femme enough for both of us :) So generally speaking, when I WAS dating (past tense, I don't anymore), my preference was to not knowingly pursue and date another CD.

[Skittles]

For me it's kinda like I love having sex with a guy.
But I love the beauty of a a woman.
A woman doing me is not the same as a real person.

[NicoleScott]

It is that those who find men attractive when they are in femme mode also find men attractive in boy mode, they simply do not allow themselves to admit it in order to protect the male ego and keep it as intact as possible.



If a CDer finds men attractive in femme mode, they most likely find men attractive in "boy" mode.

I have some confusion over the use of "they" in both quotes above. I am assuming you both mean the CDer that is being observed rather than the CDer doing the observing (which is a different matter). If I see a beautiful person with all the attributes that I like in a woman (face, hair, legs, clothes, makeup, etc.) I would be attracted. If that person turns out to be a man, I'm still attracted (not to mention impressed) to the beauty but nothing more. We should be careful not to assume others know what we mean when we say "attracted to". It may or may not mean "sexually attracted to". The attraction may be just what the eyes see without any regard to what's underneath.

[Mssusan]

A counter-question to ponder about.. Would a woman consider herself bisexual if she dated a cd'er even though a cd'er is a male? Why don't typical women not want a cd'er as a cd'er is still, by defn, a male?

Oh this brings up so many GG issues!

I am dating a CD guy. I am fine with him dressing when we are hanging out, to whatever degree he likes. I look forward to having a girls night in soon and doing makeovers, nails, etc.

When it's time for bed, though, I want my man back.

I am attracted to beauty of all types, but I am sexually attracted to male presentation and male parts.

I guess that means I am strictly hetero.

[jenni_xx]

Me, I call them whatever they want to be called at the moment. If a person is presenting as a woman and gives a female name, then I presume that female pronouns are appropriate for the moment (unless I've been told otherwise). And if someone else leaned over and asked me "is that person a woman?" I would say yes and change the subject. Would you say: "No, that's a man dressed as a woman"?

Yes, I would say that. Because that would truthfully answer the question being asked. It may be more pertinent to say to reply by saying "that's a man who identifies and presents himself as a woman", but that doesn't mean that he is a woman.

It's all well and good using female pronouns - that just adds to how many cd's want to be addressed. As Lorileah stated - using a feminine pronoun on this forum for example is regarded as the correct one to use. Because it's a forum in which we are all presenting ourselves, and discussing issues that revolve around, femininity.

As for Reine's question in her original post, as a gay man I am not attracted to cd's. But I understand why a man who identifies himself as heterosexual would find attraction to cd's, because cd's present themselves as female, and straight men are attracted to females. If anything, for a cd who straight men find attractive, it becomes a, for want of a better word, validation as to how successfully they present as women. An acid test so to speak. As for those who are attracted to cd's, it's probably the case that this will be something that they rarely, if ever, act upon. Or in other words, it's something that stays well within the realm of fantasy - just something that they wonder what it would be like. That, in my opinion, doesn't make such a person gay, or bisexual. And it's something that some cd's may wonder about because they would be entering into an encounter (or relationship) with someone who their share a common interest with.

Of course, when it boils down to it in reality, then when the time comes, the clothes come off anyway, so at such a time the illusion of visual femininity that cd's give off is removed, and a male body is what will stand before them. Would that still be attractive such cd's? If so, then the fantasy which is now a reality does suggest that they are at least bisexual. If such a time (when it remains a fantasy) doesn't enter their own thought process, well, that's why it will only ever remain a fantasy for them.

[ReineD]

If that person turns out to be a man, I'm still attracted (not to mention impressed) to the beauty but nothing more. We should be careful not to assume others know what we mean when we say "attracted to". It may or may not mean "sexually attracted to".

This is true, Nicole. A lot of people are able to discern beauty in others and in this sense, they find these others attractive. Like saying, "I think this woman is beautiful or attractive", or "This man is very handsome or attractive".

But ... they are not attracted TO them, which implies a sexual attraction. This is what I meant in my OP.



As for Reine's question in her original post, as a gay man I am not attracted to cd's. But I understand why a man who identifies himself as heterosexual would find attraction to cd's, because cd's present themselves as female, and straight men are attracted to females.

Actually, I was wanting to know why so many CDers said they were attracted to CDers but NOT to men. It's a paradox, because crossdressers are men fundamentally, even when they present as women? As you say, when the clothes come off everyone is naked.

[Bridgetlagurl]

I am not attracted to CDs or TGs in a sexual way. I want to have them as girl friends, because I see them as women.
I have one woman in my life as a sexual partner and that is my wife. Strangely enough she is attracted to CDs and TG males.
As clear as you tried to make your question, and it was clear. There is no clear answer. I am bi, so if I am going to be with a man I want him big and hairy, I want my role as the woman to be clear cut. My wife is also bi, so as I have become more fem, our sex lives have change to more of girl girl, kind of hard to sit and have a girl movie night, then go to bed and I am suppose to be all man like, well still wearing a bra and panties.


... or to anyone else, really, but mostly to the CDers who are attracted to men while dressed.


There have been several long and well attended threads asking about attraction to men while dressed. Many of the responses are positive. There is currently such a thread.

This is what puzzles me:

A lof of CDers say that they are not attracted to men while dressed so much as they're attracted to other CDers.

Question: By definition, a CDer is a male. Why do some people here make it sound as if CDers are not male?

Thanks in advance for all your responses! :)

[jenni_xx]

Actually, I was wanting to know why so many CDers said they were attracted to CDers but NOT to men. It's a paradox, because crossdressers are men fundamentally, even when they present as women? As you say, when the clothes come off everyone is naked.

My repy was intent on addressing that very paradox. CD's are men, but when they present as woman - and do so successfully, I can understand why a heterosexual man would be attracted to them. But in light of your question, as I indicated in my previous post, conflict is undoubtedly present in that how far exactly does that attraction go? Once all the clothes are off, is the attraction still there? That's what I meant when I wondered in my previous post about whether such men (who identify themselves as heterosexual) are actually (at least) bisexual. Or whether it's an attraction that is based, not on reality (that is, it actually happening), but merely on fantasy.

I suppose another facit of it could be that the attraction that such men feel is based around projection. That is, finding a cd attractive because they are projecting their own ideals (as to how they wish to be perceived as a cd) onto that person. Which, in such cases, would mean that even though another person (man) is involved, any sexual act should it happen is a rather selfish encounter - only in it for themselves kind of thing. In that respect, if it is the case (and I suspect that when heterosexual cd's do claim to be attracted to other cd's), there would never be any chance of their interaction with another cd becoming a long term relationship. In other words, those heterosexual cd's who do say that they are attracted to other cd's, we're probably talking about one-night stand-type scenarios. Which again brings it back into the realm of fantasy.

[ReineD]

Jenni, I agree. If the sexual attraction is real, then it would be there in guy mode too and the CDer would be bisexual. And there would be a desire for a relationship and not just for sex.

Thanks for your continued responses everyone! :)

[Janet Bern]

Not interested in men at all...

[MMollyB88]

I SEE CDers as women but I KNOW they're men.

I am the same way. I treat other crossdressers as if they are really a woman, unless they stated otherwise. I am also like you in that I am somewhat superficial with crossdressing. I fully envelope that I am a female and want to look the best that I can in that aspect. Also, if I was with another "crossdresser"(such a vague/general word for me as I feel I AM a girl when in this mode) that felt the same way I did I would take it that we were being lesbians at that time. As you can see, I do not see myself as a boy in a dress, but an actual girl. I believe we are made up of different spirits, so obviously I have a strong female spirit in me at these times. And FYI and to sum up the original question, I am bisexual no matter what persona I am in and would view being with another CD while in my girl persona as being with another girl, and being with another man as me being a girl with a man, duh. :)

[Talisker]

Question: By definition, a CDer is a male. Why do some people here make it sound as if CDers are not male?

)

I am stimulated visually by the female form and items of clothing. I would (hopefully) know a CD is male but if they appear as an attractive female then i am stimulated by that. Likewise i can also be stimulated by myself in the mirror when giving the appearance of a female. And of course GGs.

I also see a difference between attraction to fantasy / sex and a long term relationship.

Anyone else feel the same way?

[seanmuscle]

Jenni, I agree. If the sexual attraction is real, then it would be there in guy mode too and the CDer would be bisexual. And there would be a desire for a relationship and not just for sex.

Thanks for your continued responses everyone! :)

Its quite simple Reine. CDers are everything a woman is supposed to be. The look, the feel, the femininity and gentle nature. Straight men are attracted to this. You have to remember straight men are only attracted to Cds that can pass as genetic girls. Not a big muscular hairy guy in a dress. Hence the reason a lot of guys are attracted to asian CDers because they are generally the same size as western women and can pull off the feminine look so well.

[Sophie_C]

Reine, I do love that you're so civilized about things. Basically for me, I believe categorizing things doesn't really help people be any bit more true to themselves than letting them be free. Whoever you are attracted to, you're attracted to.

I do get what you're wanting to get at, that unless you're truly transgendered (which I would lean to being), that it's simply a homosexual relationship and they should just accept reality.

Well, the problem with that (and this is why categories are bad) is that there's this sort of typical boy-boy, masculine-masculine (even if one is a bit effeminite) gay model that someone who is a crossdresser cannot relate to. And, it's true, most gay relationships, even those who are here, their partners are NOT keen on any of the feminine aspects of them, whatsoever. They "tolerate" it, but they don't like it, at all. It's these sexuality roles which makes those here consider it something else (which it is, in a way). Now, if the umbrella of homosexuality did include it, then I believe this debate wouldn't even exist.

But, when's the last time you've seen a gay man being happy with his boyfriend always in drag? Absolutely never. When is the last time you've seen a CD attracted to men meet a man who identifies as gay in a gay environment and have a relationship with him? Never.

And, it's not going to change, since this sexual identity role is at the heart of the tolerance that is finally going through society for gay and lesbian couples. There's a sort of "wholesome middle america" package that's brought about, which has pretty much zero wiggle room for a CD and masculine male being together in it. So, people can't identify.

Is this a bit clearer?

Example of this "wholesome middle america" thing I'm talking about:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVgjDN7IytY

Edit: I should note that I actually love the "wholesome middle america" thing that is going on (and has always been here), but the answer to me is not to deconstruct it, but just let people be free on how they are if they fall outside of it.

As time will pass, and as this becomes known everywhere as just "normal" you'll get trans women and cis male relationships being seen as more "normal", and given even more time, then you'll be able to have the CD/male dynamic as not seen as just another relationship, and then nothing will matter. In the meantime, people should just be who they are, true to their feelings and not concern themselves about categories (if it was up to me).

[Janine cd]

I am intrigued by the possibility of dating a male, but I, also, would be much more comfortable if the male was also a crossdresser.

[GroovyChristy]

Reine, this may just be me, but whatever a person is presenting as determines the pronouns I will use when referring to them. I will call a regular CD "she," and the same for drag queens, and of course transwomen. As for androgynous/gender-fluid/nonconforming folks, perhaps there should be a third gender pronoun.

In any case, I will call someone by female pronouns if she is presenting femme despite not knowing what the plumbing looks like. Maybe it's harder for some people than it is for me, as I am bisexual and am okay with whatever is under the clothing. :)

[Sissy_Michelle]

A CDer couldn't be a woman?

[tiffanynjcd24]

Being the bi crossdresser, I find the men are attractive but also as much as I love women, im taking a liking to a beautiful cd/tg. Who the person is attractive to is all about truly loving someone, regardless of howbthey present theirselves

[ReineD]

Its quite simple Reine. CDers are everything a woman is supposed to be.

Hey Sean, long time no see. Nice to see that you are still saying the same things! :)




You have to remember straight men are only attracted to Cds that can pass as genetic girls.

Which is all well and good if the picture taking skills are excellent as well as the makeup skills as long as the CDer posts the best photo at the best angle (and only a fraction of real-life size) ... but what happens in real life when both CDers meet and the clothes come off?

There are very few CDers who totally pass as GGs in real life. The proof is all the work that TSs do in order to be stealth: HRT & FFS. CDers by definition don't do these things.

Back to meeting in real life - I guess another question might be, is it possible to have a fantasy about a CDer who looks like a GG in a picture, that just stays a fantasy and does not materialize when they both meet (because then the illusion would be shattered)?






In any case, I will call someone by female pronouns if she is presenting femme

I do the same thing, Christy, out of respect for their presentation. Doing otherwise would be rude. But my original question wasn't about what pronoun to use, I was rather asking why CDers who are not sexually attracted to men, are sexually attracted to CDers since CDers are fundamentally men (when the clothes come off assuming they have sex).




And thanks everyone else as well. Sophie, I agree with what you say.

[seanmuscle]

I find the Kelly girl to be attractive Reine. That gives you an idea of what I mean by passable.

[Lexi_83]

Its quite simple Reine. CDers are everything a woman is supposed to be. The look, the feel, the femininity and gentle nature. Straight men are attracted to this. You have to remember straight men are only attracted to Cds that can pass as genetic girls. Not a big muscular hairy guy in a dress. Hence the reason a lot of guys are attracted to asian CDers because they are generally the same size as western women and can pull off the feminine look so well.You can add long blonde hair and big boobs....