I get it we lied to our SOs. . . but please

[Marcelle]

I apologize in advance as this is another lengthy Isha rant thread :)

Hi all. I know I have not been here a long time but I have made it daily habit to read a majority of the posts. The ones I find interesting are the ones that hit close to home. No more prolific subject appears than "coming out". I myself as some you may know only recently came out to my wife of 24 years. Yup, kept that secret buried and hidden from her for that long . . . :eek:

Does that make me a bad person, facetious, the evil master of the netherworld, or a criminal? No. It makes me human and guess what humans make mistakes, exercise poor judgement or heaven forbid try to insulate themselves from harm, ridicule or just plain nastiness. I did not wake up one day and say . . . "Hey I'm bored what can I do to ruin a life. Ah ha, I think I am going to start wearing dresses and panties, find a woman, marry her, keep it a secret and then drop it on her after 24 years." No. I couldn't change who I was, if it was that easy I wouldn't be here. Instead, I carried this secret locked deep inside because I was embarrassed and confused.

Funny thing about the human psyche and identity, we are composed of several which we carry through life and they make sense . . . There is the me identity (who I am where I fit in), the male identity (boys do boy things), my military identity, my husband identity and a whole list of identities that synch. Then along comes Isha and guess what, she doesn't synch with the rest . . . can you say psyche short circuit . . .oh yeah. We (humans) don't deal well with things that upset our sense of self and our psyche will try to insulate us. Some people repress (did my share of that), hide and hope for the best (been there done that) but eventually we either have to embrace and incorporate or suffer the emotional repercussions. In some instances we come out to our wives or it is discovered. In either case the cat is out the bag, the three hundred pound elephant now has a name and everyone has see the guy in the gorilla suit. Now it has to be dealt with.

For the most part, everyone provides great and appropriate advice/comments. But for some the undertone of the advice is "shame, shame, bad, bad, liar, liar pants on fire". Don't get me wrong, I get it, we lied to our SOs some of us for years but as I said above it was not done with malice it was done to protect. When I met my wife I fell instantly in love with her :love:, we just belonged together. Was I secretly wearing lingerie at nights when we weren't together? Yup. Did I continue to engage in my proclivities after marriage? Yup. Did I think about telling her before marriage? Briefly, but I was afraid I would loose her. Does that make me a bad person? No. I wanted to maintain the companionship and love I found. We are after all is said and done, social creatures.

So next question, why not come clean sooner? Why? Because it was a shameful secret. We would be naïve to think society writ large sees us as normal and not some freakish "Dressed to Kill Tranny". So, I insulated myself, protected myself and in some crazy "seven degrees of something" wanted to protect my wife from knowing this horrible, shameful thing. Now before anyone goes of on the "that's just being selfish" band wagon I dare anyone on this forum to do a bit of introspective soul searching and tell me that they have never hidden something from their family or SO because you didn't think they would understand or you would loose them "Let s/he who has not sinned cast the first stone".

So to bottle the genie. I really find it quite harsh that a lot of replies make those of us who come out feel like deviants and bad people because we chose not to say on our first date with someone "Oh by the way, I really like your skirt, can I borrow it sometime as it goes with my new heels".

We did nothing wrong in protecting ourselves, we are not bad people and we should not be made to feel as though we are. What we are guilty of is being human and making a bad judgement call (God help us if we were all perfect . . . what a boring world this would be). Do we owe our SOs and explanation? You bet. Do we need to make amends? Yes. Do we have to cower in the corner and take every ultimatum our SO throws at us or walk on eggshells in order to be accepted? No. We cannot change who we are anymore then you can stop the world from turning.

If the relationship is going to survive, two parties need to work together to make it survive. One party (GG or CD) cannot have a position of power over the other, that is just wrong. Talking, sharing, truth, caring, loving are all good constructs but it has to be from a level/equal playing field not one-sided. My wife and I talk everyday. She puts her foot down on some things, I put mine down on others (this includes CDing and everyday life). We find common ground and move on. The minute one party has all the power "My way or the highway" well . . . sounds a bit abusive.

Final rant . . . I know, when will this girl shut up :).

Just because someone has chosen not to come out . . . please cut them some slack. Dig deep in to your own past. How long did you carry your secret before you came out? If you are one of these rare birds who came out immediately, then good for you, I applaud your courage and choice. However, everyone has to make the decision for themselves and unless we can walk a mile in her heels, we should not be wagging our fingers and saying "shame, shame".

Once again, I relinquish the soap box.

Hugs

Isha

[NancyJ]

Isha, I know that I didn't come clean early in my marriage because I was yet to be honest with myself and being a "baby boomer" there wa no internet and very little literature I could find in my college library related to what I was feeling. What I did find pathologized it which made me feel even more ashamed of who I was and wanted to be. The first thing I told her (and I think this might be common, at least in my age group) is that I wanted to wear her panties, which she let me do, and even got some of my own which she has tolerated. As I've understood more that I am trans, I've tried many times to talk with her about this and it hasn't gone well. I imagine that had we both been older when we got married, had I been born into a later generation, and had I been more comfortable with my own gender identity perhaps, as much as I love her we may not have gotten married. So, that's why I didn't tell sooner. The other thing is I think that I thought that once I was married the urges to dress would decrease. Of course the opposite happened as I then began sharing a dresser bureau and closet with an attractive woman and both were filled with things I wanted to wear. Nancy

[Connief]

Thank you! I could not have said it any better!

[MsRenee]

Very nice post Isha
The reason I never came out to her atfirst was being afraid of the consequences of hiding it from here and losing everything we both had worked so hard to acheive.
I can understand how others feel especially with children involved. We didnt have any so it wasnt too difficult minus the argueing. yelling and crying.
Some of us get realy lucky and they accept us as the same person they fell in love with but with a twist.
All I can say I wish everyone luck on heir choice, it is entirely up to them if they wanna disclose themselves to their S/O.
Theres a time and place for everything.
Renee

[Kelly DeWinter]

Isha;

Nice thread , One point that hardly anyone comments on is in a relationship of many years there are a lot of post marital factors that cause stress on the relationship that build like steam in a pressure cooker. So when "The Big Reveal" happens it gives the spouse a reason or opportunity to end the relationship.

So many marriages and relationships end not because of crossdressing, but because the spouse or SO were already being treated poorly to begin with.

Some of the common complaints in a relationship that lead to divorce and separation.

Grumpy when you come home for work.
Financially insecure (bills not being paid)
Help around the house (cleaning, picking up after yourself and others)
Not date you spouse from time to time.
Ignoring the physical and spiritual needs of your spouse or SO

Work at being happy, at least most of the time.

[reb.femme]

Count me into the group of shame Isha. Married for 32 years before I came out and we'd been together since ours early teens. Nearly 40 years all in.

Essentially, my predilection for dressing grew over the years and was not something I was partaking in on a regular basis. Also, it was sexually based in the early years, so blurting out that, "Darling I'm a weird type of perv that likes having single-person sex whilst wearing your clothes" is probably not going to go down too well with many GGs,.....I'm guessing. Hence the secrecy here.

Over time, the fetish element has diminished and has led to me becoming "just a CD". Yes honesty is lovely, but the gradual increase in desire to dress over the years, coupled with finding this site, is what eventually led me to come clean to my wife. I had to weigh how she might react and I took the plunge, which I'm glad I did. However, I will not judge others as to whether they tell or not. All moral stances aside, or whatever the personal opinion, it is someone else's life to live, not mine.

Rebecca

[Rachael Leigh]

Thanks Isha very well written, I was one that did come out to my wife before marriage and did that work out, well not so much. She was ok with it fit a while but I got way to selfish. So is there a good time to do it I would say no. It's a feel thing and it's never easy especially for the wife, cause she feels guilty too, like did I do something wrong give off bad vibes. So it's never easy on either side. Thanks again Isha

[TGMarla]

Thanks for that Isha. Well said. It's all too true. I, too, did not reveal this to my wife when we married. It took several years, and it's still something we simply don't talk about. Does it make me evil? Nope. I was just afraid to lose her. And while she stayed with me after she found out, had she known much earlier, she'd probably have bolted on me. That was a prospect that I just couldn't bear, and I'm happy that she is still my wife. Sure, I wish she was accepting, but despite the skewed numbers we find on these forums, I think that it's likely that around 80% of wives and girlfriends don't want anything to do with this, and really don't approve of it in the men in their lives.

[jenni_xx]

Isha - a really good post that addresses an issue that a lot of us have. For that alone, your post deserves to be applauded.

To address your post, firstly, I will never, ever, look down on anyone who comes out, irrespective of the time that they come out - be it at the start of a relationship, 20 years plus into a relationship, or before a relationship has had a chance to form. But timing (that is when a cd does come out) plays a huge part in how their revelation will be received. There is no escaping that fact. Also the circumstances surrounding the "revelation" will also play a part. A wife/partner finds out off her own accord (either by stumbling across clothes in the house that are not hers (thus forcing her partner to tell the truth), or seeing a picture, or an internet page), or a wife/partner is told by her husband/partner, many years down the line. Both scenarios require answers from the cd, from her partner, and both of those scenarios will result in a trust being broken, a lie being apparent, about the time that they spent with their partner prior to the revelation being made/discovered.

There is no need for me to dwell on this here. Everyone here knows this all too well.

The biggest problem for the partner however does lie in the fact that their SO has lived a lie for so long. Has held a significant part of their persona back from the person they had supposedly given their all to. That results in a huge bridge to overcome. And it will invariably result in the notion of trust being diminished. It may result in an SO wondering to themselves "what else is there that he hasn't told me". In short, doubt will rise to the fore, and become something in the mind of the SO in regards to how real, how truthful, their relationship is.

In an ideal world, every single CD WOULD come out on their very first date with a partner. In an ideal world, no CD wouldn't need to hold back their identity as a CD to anyone. We don't live in an ideal world however. And yet it is because we don't live in an ideal world that results in so many CD's remaining in the closet, or keeping a part of them hidden from the people who matter to them the most. But irrespective of the state of the world, irrespective of how much CD's are accepted or not, no partner/SO is deserving of being lied to. No partner/SO is deserving of having a partner who keeps a significant part of their live secret.

It's too strong a word to say that a CD who doesn't reveal the truth about themselves is a liar. They're not. Such CD's are simply scared of the consequences. The possibility of losing their partner as a result of being honest. But quite frankly, that is not justification enough when it comes to relationships. For it's not only our own sensitivities that we are dealing with here. It's the feelings of others. I, personally, have much more respect of the CD's who are able to be honest right from the outset, at the risk of losing a potential partner, than those who suppress their true selves, in the hope of keeping a potential partner.

Honesty, being truthful, should never be something that should be frowned upon. Not being honest, being truthful, even if only to avoid the risk of loss, should never be something that is valued.

Honesty right from the outset for me. It worked for me in my current relationship. I told my (now) husband right from the start about my crossdressing. In the past, I revealed this side of me to partners who reacted in a variety of ways (from acceptance to complete disgust). If I had told a previous partner right from the outset, maybe they wouldn't have gotten emotionally involved with me. And you know what - that is their choice - their right - to make that decision. I, and no one else, has any right to get emotionally involved with anyone under false pretenses, that is, by holding back a part of your personality - a significant part - that, if ever revealed, will result in your now emotionally attached partner looking at you in a completely different light, and not only that, but looking back on the relationship you've had so far with a completely different view. No one, I repeat, no one, deserves that.

[Amy Lynn3]

Thanks, Isha. You have put into words what I have know in my heart for years was right for some, but maybe not others. Everyone must make up there minds as what to do in life. Not just about cding, but everything.

Our present situation, at any given time, determines what we do with the information we have in front of us. I have found there are not many givens in life, but we do live with the choices we make.

[Veronica27]

For most of us, the fact that we crossdress is a secret. It is usually viewed as a noble thing to be able to keep someone else's secrets that we may become privy to, and not blab them to one and all. Divulging secrets is generally considered to be morally wrong. When the secret is our own, it may be a burden to another person to divulge that secret to him or her if it is supposed to remain a secret. Occasionally there may be individuals who should be party to a personal secret, such as a spouse or parent, but the decision to divulge it is not a clear cut one.

Divulging a secret can be foolhardy or it could be beneficial. Which result will ensue is anybody's guess and depends upon a great many factors. It's significance to everyday life, the personalities and attitudes of the people involved, moral and ethical considerations, as well as the nature of the secret all enter into making the correct decision. As one who has been sworn to secrecy several times in my lifetime, I can attest to the burden that such knowledge can create. Even when the individuals involved have passed on, their legacy lives on for their relatives and their descendants, and is something we should not tarnish. There are secrets I will have to carry to my grave.

I do not view not telling something to be a lie. It is a passive omission and unless we are asked outright we have not lied by our silence. There can be valid reasons for non disclosure. While I think that a spouse should know of our crossdressing, non disclosure is not something that should cause us to feel ashamed or guilty. We should not wag our fingers at anyone for their decisions in this respect.

Nicely written post, Isha.

Veronica

[jenni_xx]

Veronica,

That's certainly one way to justify, sorry, look at it.

[Maslow's Mum]

Great post Isha! I have often read posts where SOs say they were 'lied to' when their CD didn't disclose....they are upset because their SO didn't trust them. Someone else also said on another thread that (to paraphrase) 'here we are all accepted, loved and supported but the REAL world doesn't work like that"....and speaking for my small corner of the world that is so true. For a man to disclose here that he cross dressed ....well, the poor devil had better have a one way ticket out of town as well because he would be made the butt of jokes, rejected and mocked. It would mean no job, no future. Sad but true.

Here is a true story that has nothing to do with CDing, but shares everything with it. I had a lover once who was part First Nations Cree. His name was Ian and he very visibly was part Cree, however, he told me his grandfather did not look Cree at all. In fact he 'passed' so well he was able to become an Anglican minister (unheard of for his race and for the time) and he married a 'white' woman. As Ian said to me....'now you have to remember this was back in the day when we Indians were killing whites and them us!" So he didn't tell her because he loved her so much he knew if he DID tell she would reject him. Finally after 8 children together and many years he thought "I love her SO much, I have to share this with her". So he did. His wife immediately hired a carpenter, partitioned the house in two. Ian's grandfather lived on one side of the house and she lived with the 8 children on the other. They spent the rest of their lives like that. Almost all of those children became either drug addicted or alcoholic or had other problems coping, one of whom was Ian's dad.

So, he didn't tell her because he loved her so much he was terrified of losing her
but then he did tell her because he loved her so much....and he lost her.

This story is not saying 'don't disclose'. His not disclosing and then disclosing were were not 'a lack of courage' or 'shameful', they were 'acts of love in both cases'. The lesson in this story at least for me is that loving someone seemed to be this man's only 'crime' and how tragic is that? When I stand before St. Peter or Allah or whomever, or I'm just aying there dying waiting to go on to my next big adventure....and I look back, I hope my only crime will that I loved someone.

[Beverley Sims]

I came out almost straight away, but it still took a long time to get to where I am today.

[jenni_xx]

Maslow's Mum

That is a fascinating true story that you told about Ian.

However, you told one side of that story. What is the other side? About how his wife felt, her reasons for cordoning off the house, etc etc.

My point is that it's all well and good using a story as an analogy in order to make a point. But the point falls short if the WHOLE story isn't told.

[Marcelle]

Hi Jenni,

Firstly you will get no argument from me in that there is a breech of trust and this needs to be addressed. If the relationship is strong, it survives. If it is not, it won't.

You say you don't look down on those who come out late in the relationship yet you also state you have more respect of those (like you) who come out at the beginning. I am to assume we are not deserving of respect. You also throw the word lie around like a banner to paint those of us who had our reasons not to tell as bad people . . . my point of the post to begin with.

Why people choose to not disclose everything is for them to deal with. Nobody has the right to take the high ground and tell them they are wrong. I get it you and few like you are rarities and always do the right thing in life. Some of us are flawed but that does not make us bad people. I will ask you the poignant question do you disclose every little thing to your SO on a daily basis, I mean everything. If not then you are as guilty as you have painted us.

You are right, we don't live in a perfect/ideal world. If we did then this would not be an issue. There are aspects of personality and past employment I will never share with my wife as I don't think she would understand the things I had to do and to whom. Things that most could not fathom unless they have seen combat and even then you don't know until you are there.

The point I am making is that we all make decisions right or wrong. I am assuming you have made some poor judgement calls in your life . . . we all do. To tell me and others that we have somehow hurt those we love because we hid a secret that we ourselves could not come to grips with smacks of conceit and non understanding. You don't know me or any of the others any more than I can claim to know what you think and feel when you make bad decisions.

Isha

[ReineD]

No of course not telling doesn't make a person bad or evil. I understand how hard it is to tell, I've been there myself although with a different issue.

There is a wonderful little book entitled, "Why Am I Afraid To Tell You Who I Am" by John Powell that, without being overly dramatic, saved my life many years ago.

This book brings home the reality that sharing who we are is much more for the benefit of the person who has a secret, than anyone else. The books description is, "Only when we face our fears can we learn to like ourselves and trust that others will accept us. This extraordinary book has changed countless lives."

Here's a preview:
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/sample/read/9780006281054


These are quotes from the book:

"I can only know that much of myself that I have had the courage to confide to you."

"I am afraid to tell you who I am, because if I tell you who I am, you may not like who I am, and it's all that I have."

"If I expose my nakedness as a person to you - Do not make me feel shame."

[Secret Drawer]

Isha, thank you for your thoughtful and sensible post. I often don't respond to posts that offend me because I feel that either I am reading in too much or I myself might be just as offensive. Your ability to stay on point and stay level headed is fantastic. You are a huge asset to this site and thus, a great benefit to many of us who struggle with these themes.

[Gillian Gigs]

If you were to start out in life with, "boys don't cry", and move forward it is easy to see where it will go if you get anything less than macho when it comes to clothes. I remember once as a teen telling a friend that I liked soft fabrics and cashmere sweaters, BOOM what a mistake, it took a couple of weeks for that one to settle down. What if I had said that I liked to wear cami's and panties, OMG, I would hate to think of that outcome. It's that others will shame the other person, why, and dare I say get one up on that other person! Lets face it and internet has both good and bad, if you look in the wrong area it is easy to see why someone would get the impression that CD'ers are gays, or perverts. So, what can be done, we change the world one person at a time, and hopefully while we are doing it, we get a good responce. Our spouse is the first logical place to start, and only the "other half" will have any idea how that responce will go. So, some don't take the chance, maybe because they know what the outcome will be.

[Stacy M.]

Well said, as usual, Isha. I think you said in one of your earliest posts that your wife wasn't upset about you lying to her, since you were really lying to yourself, as well. That's kind of the way I feel about it, too. Usually, we don't really know the extent of our desires when we're younger, anyway. Or don't want to admit it, even to ourselves.

[jenni_xx]

Hi Isha

You shouldn't assume that we are not deserving of respect. In saying I had more respect for those who come out at the beginning, I didn't mean to imply that I had NO respect for those who don't. I understand completely the reasons why people don't come out, either at first, or not at all. I've been there myself. And genuinely, I regard myself as fortunate in that the time when I did come out right at the very start (or rather before the start) of my current relationship, I was accepted. In all honesty, when I first met my current partner, I was in "a moment" when I felt (or was made to feel) able to be completely truthful and open. For me, in this isolated moment, it was the right thing to do.

In my post to which you replied, I most certainly didn't "throw the word lie around". And I do not regard those who refrain from being open and honest about their cding as bad people. That is a misconception on your part. It's not that I feel people who don't come out in the beginning are being wrong, or being bad, but I do regard them as holding back a truth about themselves - a truth that would/could/does have a bearing upon the person who they want to be with. For with cding, it is a part of our lives that is important, and it is regarded as a significant part of who we actually are. I say that for several reasons - the most obvious one being that, in coming out as a cd, whether we like it or not, it does result in our partners viewing us in a different light. And sometimes that "different light" that our partners see us in is a light that they don't particularly like.

I also do not agree that not disclosing every little thing to an SO on a daily basis means that such a person is as guilty as you have perceived me to regard you as being. CDing isn't, nor has ever been, a little thing. There has been many times when I've not told my husband about something that has happened to me, and I'm sure that my husband could say the very same thing. But such things are usually insignificant, isolated incidents - incidents that in and of themselves merit no further consideration whatsoever. I would regard such things as trivial. Something I would never say in regards to someone who crossdresses. That is not trivial - it is significant. And hand on heart, I have never held anything back from my husband anything that I regard to be significant.

You're right though - we have all made poor judgement calls in our lives. All of us. Me. You. Everyone else. They are, by definition, "poor judgement calls". And by that definition, they are things in which we could have made a better choice. Me pointing that out therefore in my previous post to you - the post to which you replied - shouldn't result in you questioning me, or misinterpreting what it is that I'm actually saying. I will not shy away from the ideal whereby we should be totally honest with the most important person in our lives - our partner. For being totally honest is not a bad thing. You are now in a position whereby you can be totally honest about your cding with your partner. You are also fortunate that your partner is accepting of you. And that is a blessing. I regard it as a blessing that my partner is accepting of me. And I am thankful of that, every single day. And I think I am very fortunate in that respect. I am so glad that I told him the first moment I met him. I am so happy that he accepted me. If he hadn't, then I would never have had a relationship with him. If he hadn't accepted me, then he would have had the chance to walk away before becoming emotionally involved with me. Giving people that opportunity should never be frowned upon in my opinion.

I'm sorry that you think my view (about being honest and open) "smacks of conceit and non understanding". You couldn't be more wrong. My view isn't like that at all. My view is simply one of being open and true to ourselves and the people who matter to us. And I do not, nor ever will, regard that as a bad thing. My view, which I may add took a long time in coming to terms with myself, is that if I am to give my heart to someone, and they are to give their heart to me, then the very least they deserve is for me to become an open book to them. No secrets, no holding back. On either side.

[Julie Gaum]

Excellent posts by Isha, by Jenni taking another side and by many others as long as those posts stayed on point. In fact
a good case may be had for supporting either side. It did go astray when trying to define "good" lies from lies that make one "Bad", or that all lies must be "bad" whether any damage was done by the act or not --- actually the "degree" that one lied or didn't disclose has little bearing on Isha's thread. Yes, some members will stand by the position that marriage, or any other relationship, is built on a bedrock of trust so that by not being initially forthcoming that trust was broken and will forever remain so --- I'll accept that as one position but only as a valid one BASED upon a set of circumstances that, unfortunately, varies as greatly as the human mind is different in all 7 billion of us here on earth. In conclusion every position is the "right" one based upon the circumstances that brought one to that conclusion.
Do have to add another consideration that I found when once having a friendly argument with a famous Archbishop
--- he was very persuasive except for his "sins of omission". How seriously do those sins of omission affect ourselves and others? Yep, it depends ---.
Julie

[MatildaJ.]

Hiding something from a partner doesn't make you a bad person. But as CDing grows in importance in your life, the likeliness of you being able to keep the secret goes down. At that point, your best bet, from a pragmatic perspective, is to manage the disclosure so that your wife feels that you only discovered this facet of your personality recently, and you've been as honest as you could be with her.

And still, if you're going to want to spend an increasing amount of your time CDing, you have to be prepared for her to find that unappealing. Most women do. That's why it's also important to think about what the two of you have in common, what you still share as common interests, and work on keeping those ties strong. That way she'll have a good answer for herself, if she ever wonders why she is in this relationship. You don't want her to think: "access to health insurance, I guess that's the only reason I'm still in this relationship."

[Deedee Skyblue]

I know it isn't popular to suggest that men and women think differently, but, I think there is a major difference in the way men and women think regarding 'hiding' something. To me, not telling when you are certain that telling would destroy your marriage seems like the perfectly logical, and morally correct, action. To my wife, this kind of action is a violation of trust that would make it incredibly difficult for her to trust in the future - what else is being hidden? I have never hidden my dressing from my wife; we met online in a forum and she knew me as Deedee(tv) before she knew my male name, so this has nothing to do with crossdressing - but instead, this is a basic difference in the way we think.

Deedee(tv)

[Alice Torn]

Each persons situation, and circumstances are a bit different. There is a time for every purpose under heaven. A time to speak, and a time not to speak. In some relationships, it is wisest, to no disclose. In others, disclosing would be wisest.

[Michelle (Oz)]

There is a wonderful little book entitled, "Why Am I Afraid To Tell You Who I Am" by John Powell that, without being overly dramatic, saved my life many years ago.

I'm not at all surprised that views are polarised. I was accused of lying and entrapment when I came out to my wife some 3 years after first forming our partnership. I don't believe I did - just the return of my need/urge to dress after more than 3 years hiatus.

I also understand our wive's views and accept that they have genuine reasons for feeling lied to and deceived.

The book recommended by Reine looks very helpful even now some 15 months post reveal as my wife and I continue to deal with the elephant in the room.

[Sister Rachel]

I've nothing really to add to what you've said, Isha, but you're absolutely right in my view. I wasn't "out" to my wife when we married .. I 'fessed up a couple of years in, now, in our nineteenth year of marriage, I can slip into a dress or skirt if I feel like it without Anne being upset or freaked out in any way, although I still feel a bit embarrassed if she comes into the bedroom when I'm fiddling about with the clips of a suspender belt or sorting out the layers on a net skirt :o

If you love someone you shouldn't lie to them, but you don't have to tell them everything all at once, imho.

Thanks for an excellent post, Hugs, Brenda :hugs:

[Jilmac]

Well Isha, that was a windy but well thought out thread. That said, I told my wife that I enjoyed wearing womens clothes on about my third date with her. Her, having a gay brother, who did occasional drag, she was convinced that it would "turn me gay". I dressed all through our marriage but kept it hidden, I suppose to protect both of us. I decided to come out only after she passed away. I started dating a wonderful woman shortly after my spouses demise and told her of my desire to crossdress after several dates. She has accepted my dressing to a point, that is she has no desire to see me or be with me when I'm dressed but I'm free to dress whenever I desire. I no longer have to hide from my SO because she accepts me for who I am, and I can live with the arrangement we agreed upon.

[Maryesther M.]

My wife of 45 years is now 67 years old and very conservative in her views on everything. I never 'came out' to her, but every so often over recent years she has discovered items which remind her of my 'little addiction' and she bins them immediately. That's always due to carelessness or forgetfulness on my part, but it invariably leads to friction and mistrust.

My philosophy is that I do it so privately that it doesn't offend anyone, but SHEWHOMUSTBEOBEYED doesn't see it like that, alas.

M.

[AmyGaleRT]

Fortunately, I knew I had to come out to my fiancee before we were married. Nevertheless, we'd still been together for years before I finally did. Afterwards, if there was anything that she was, well, not upset, but "miffed" about, it's that I hadn't come forward with this sooner. Well, when she puts it that way, I understand...I could have had all that time free to be Amy and not worry about what she thought!

- Amy

[TheMissus]

Funny, but I don't think you're a bad person for keeping it hidden at all, Isha. I was told (well, parts of it) in the early days and I truly think I struggle more for this than if I'd had more time with my H without this other side. It's definitely clouded my attraction and even my respect, and I think if I'd had a longer time not knowing of this feminine side, I wonder if I'd be more accepting now?

That said, the shock is also terrible for a SO and this can destroy things beyond repair, so I'm happy for you that your wife is coping well.

One thought - you seem to be moving quite fast from telling to going out etc. I don't know if you know where this is heading (is there a chance you're TS?) but she may freak out unexpectedly if you push this further than she's comfortable. And yes, you talk often but we girls are good at being okay with something one day and really NOT okay with it the next. Have you asked her what her limits are? Do you know where her line is so that you don't cross it? Once you do, even if you come back, another level of trust is broken and it might be the final straw for your wife.

Anyway, I don't know her obviously, but that's just my perspective and I'm sure you will work all this out together x

[MysticLady]

I'm sure there are things that my wife hasn't told me. I believe that sometimes, there are things better left, unsaid.

[Marcelle]

Hi Missus,

You are correct that I have gone from telling and going out in quick order. I have been working with a colleague of mine who specializes in gender identity issues and she is convinced I am not TS. Specifically, I like my working parts right where they are I like them working (so no HRT for me). I will admit that Isha is a force of nature and the more I explore her, the harder it is to turn her off. That does give me cause for concern and that is one aspect of this journey I am working with my therapist on.

We have come to the realization that I am definitely bi-gendered in that I have two personas (male and female). One is expressed through my everyday life (male) and the other only gets to come out when I dress. This female side has been hidden for so long that the quick move to go out and her powerful effect on my day to day life is most likely a function of that side wanting to validate her existence within my psyche. This is coupled with my Type A personality which just wants to do things because I can. There is a reason why I moved from Psychology to working with my last unit (jumping out of a plane at 15000 feet or rushing into gun fire is quite the rush) so in a sense I am a bit of an adrenaline junkie and this may be feeding into my need to go out as I do get quite the thrill.

My wife and I attend therapy together on occasion in order to discuss and work through boundaries. She has hers and I have mine. Right now she is definitely in the camp that she will not go out with me anymore as she is afraid I will get hurt and she doesn't want to be there to see it. WRT to pushing the envelope, I would love to go out again. She is fine with it but only if she is allowed to pick the venue which she feels is safe. I live with that, as compromise is the gateway to a healthy relationship.

Will our relationship suddenly come crashing down around me? I really can't answer that question anymore that I could answer it if I wasn't CD and we just drifted apart. I do know we have been together for 24 years and she has seen a very dark side of me to which CD cannot hold a candle. She stuck with me through that so, I can only keep my fingers crossed.

Hugs

Isha

[TheMissus]

Isha, you really do sound like a considerate, thoughtful H. You are doing your best to be who are and who you need to be without destroying the life you already have. I really admire that.

I hope things work out for you both, but in the end if Isha needs more than your wife can handle there's not much either of you can do. Life isn't long enough to not be who you are if the need is unbearable. If it's something you can learn to control then that's also an option I suppose. Hopefully though, things will settle soon for you and you can both enjoy the rest of your lives without any more surprises.

Ha, yeah right. I'm yet to go six months without something tipping the apple cart. One day at a time, that's all we can do. M x

[Emogene]

Isha, great post!

Thank you one and all for an interesting read, I suspect this string is a very good example of why so many of us check into the forum so regularly.

The variety of opinions and situations helps so much in forming our own unique persona and dealing with the thoughts we all have associated with CD and the intimacy of the associated problems, physical and emotional, spirituality, sexuality, et al of ourselves and our loved ones. Life is a process of becoming!

[MatildaJ.]

Isha is a force of nature and the more I explore her, the harder it is to turn her off.

This is what I mean about sometimes it feels like the girl persona is a different person, trying to get out. Over time, the guy persona seems to become less and less in control of the situation, as the girl persona starts expressing herself. When we're told "but I'm the same person inside," that's somewhat like saying that your forty-year-old spouse is the same as the ten-year-old boy he used to be. Yes, they have the same genes, but so much else seems different...

[ReineD]

I will admit that Isha is a force of nature and the more I explore her, the harder it is to turn her off. That does give me cause for concern and that is one aspect of this journey I am working with my therapist on.

We call this state of being The Pink Fog. Husbands and wives have different definitions. Husbands will say it is this wonderful feeling they get when they engage in anything that relates to the CDing. Wives will say it is a Fog that takes over their husbands' brains, to the point where dressing and everything related to it becomes a life priority. My relationship with my SO was at its lowest point during this phase. Divorces happen during this phase.

The Fog tends to manifest itself in stages, when new barriers are broken. First accepting the CDing, first telling a wife, accumulating all the clothes and props in order to look better, beginning to go out, and last, beginning to interact with people while out. If these steps happen rapidly, it's not unheard of for the Fog to become so severe that people will begin questioning their gender identity.

The best antidote for the Fog in my opinion is to go out several times per week to do regular things, for at least one year.

[Michelle (Oz)]

The best antidote for the Fog in my opinion is to go out several times per week to do regular things, for at least one year.
Oh Doctor Reine. I love your prescription:):). It seems to be working but please can I have a repeat on the script for a few more years? :heehee:


There is a reason why I moved from Psychology to working with my last unit (jumping out of a plane at 15000 feet or rushing into gun fire is quite the rush) so in a sense I am a bit of an adrenaline junkie and this may be feeding into my need to go out as I do get quite the thrill.
Isha, this is an interesting diversion to your initial thread. Some years ago I took up scuba diving and worked through to divemaster. Then serious off road 4WDing. So I did wonder whether CDing and going out was just another expression of thrill seeking. In fact it concerned me if this was the case that I would be satisfied/bored and move on to the next adventure. My concern was to lose the much greater satisfaction and pleasure than derived from the other activities I have tried.

To my relief (at least in some ways) that hasn't been the case and I continue to find pleasure and joy in going out dressed after a number of years. Dressing never gets old or too much trouble. There is always room to improve skills and enjoy new experiences.

[kimdl93]

There could indeed be a book or two written on this subject. I was lucky enough to come be drawn 'out' by my first wife, weeks after we married, and fortunate that she was accepting and adventurous. But despite her acceptance, I had not accepted myself. I bought into the societal notion that I was defective, perverse, and shameful. This lead to years of self loathing, which contributed to bouts of anger..really temper tantrums at nothing in particular.

Although I ran no risk of being exposed to my wife...she knew and tried to support me...I still bore the burden and suffered the consequences of hiding from myself. I understand how difficult and risky it can be to tell others, but I also feel it's important to acknowledge the cost of hiding from yourself. Often that cost can be very high.

[Leah Lynn]

I never considered an omission to be a lie. Besides, I thought I had everything under control. I have never been able to drop my defenses totally, with anyone. My wife passed away not knowing a few things about me. She didn't need to know those things. She withheld a few things from me as well. I did come out to her a year before her death, and it worked out okay.

I've been alone for a year now, and not sure that I want another relationship. I've started hrt, so it's hard to believe that I would find anyone. Even if I did, I doubt I'd be able to completely lower my defenses. It's just who I am.

Leah

[Lori Kurtz]

My first wife didn't know a thing until she caught me in an embarrassing moment. My CDing had taken a lot of attention away from her, and she, for years, blamed herself for what I was actually responsible for. And I let her live that way. That was the fundamentally unforgivable thing that I was guilty of.

[lingerieLiz]

So, he didn't tell her because he loved her so much he was terrified of losing her
but then he did tell her because he loved her so much....and he lost her.

It is why if you are dating you need to tell early on. An SO needs to understand before both of you are committed. It is better to lose early than latter. Even after telling it is not unusual for the SO to change their mind in the future. Not telling will also cause some SOs to wonder what else you are hiding.

[NicoleScott]

As soon as we are born, we are steered into one direction or another. For me toy trucks and blue clothes, not dolls and pink. As the first inclination and opportunity to try something on that belongs to the "other side" hits, we did it in secret, behind a locked bedroon or bathroom door. We just knew. When I was punished as a boy caught playing with my mom's lipstick, it drove me deep in to the closet. I had a need, but expressing that need through behavior was unacceptable, so I had no choice than to keep it private. Suddenly I'm grown up but my dressing is still private. It wasn't shame, but just living within the rules set for me by others.
I'm one of the many who married with the secret, and one of many who honestly thought that the excitement of crossdressing would be replaced by the excitement for the bride. Especially for those of us who were BC (before computers and the internet) we had no resources other than psychology books and Penthouse Forum which told us we either had a psychology problem or were sexually deviant. Of course, we were wrong about the CDing going away. When we realized this, we were left with two choices (to tell or not), with both choices having unpredictable outcomes. Those outcomes have been great for some but disastrous for others.
So we can only do what we think is best for our particular situation for that particular time.
Many of the "you must tell" people have selfish motives: it's good for the CDing community (them) but at your expense. They don't care if your relationship is destroyed, offering only that there was probably some other reason. Let's remember that the CDers who have already come out, did so at a time of their own choosing, a choice they don't think others should have.

[~Joanne~]

Very well written post Isha, I don't think I could have ever put my feelings on this subject into the proper words as you have here. I agree with it 100% and it about time someone actually said it around here.

[Di]

Does that make me a bad person, facetious, the evil master of the netherworld, or a criminal? No. It makes me human and guess what humans make mistakes, exercise poor judgement or heaven forbid try to insulate themselves from harm, ridicule or just plain nastiness. I did not wake up one day and say . . . "Hey I'm bored what can I do to ruin a life. Ah ha, I think I am going to start wearing dresses and panties, find a woman, marry her, keep it a secret and then drop it on her after 24 years." No. I couldn't change who I was, if it was that easy I wouldn't be here. Instead, I carried this secret locked deep inside because I was embarrassed and confused.

I never really read where anyone thought any of that. Thank goodness:D the bad person, facetious, the evil master of the netherworld, part

And about the embarrassed and confused...totally get that and always hope when coming out that person explains that.:thumbsup: so the GG understands.......alot hinges on them understanding and both partners getting on the same page.

I do try to post from experience of GGs that I know here at the forum and our local group the biggest hurdle for most wives finding out by accident is feeling left out,betrayed and lied to.
I personally never had that as I knew from the getgo and met Sherlyn not the guy side for many months.

I think it is a gift:love:

[Tina_gm]

Here is my opinion-
So many say on here that communication is vital to being able to sustain a healthy relationship. Marriage or to any commitment of an SO. communication and commitment... Two things that are not being properly provided when not disclosing crossdressing. I am as guilty as so many others for not initially disclosing my crossdressing desires. It's difficult, scary, no guarantees how it will turn out.

Many will say (and there is some truth ) that the relationship and or marriage would not have taken place had they known from the beginning. Well, to me that means that perhaps the person whom we choose who cannot handle the crossdressing in the 1st place is not really meant to be a significant other with a long term if not lifetime commitment. We are only best serving ourselves to be upfront from the beginning so that we can also choose our best partners.

Disclosure is of utmost importance in making the most important decisions in life. To make the proper decisions and to be able to move forward in unity. Our courts demand full disclosure from prosecutors so that juries make the best possible decision not only of guilt or innocence, but also as to what extent the crime (if there is) is and the correct action to be taken as a result.

Not that what we do is a crime by any means. But the importance of disclosure cannot be underestimated. Of the successful relationships where CDing is involved, those who have early disclosure before there is a commitment are the majority. Those who have early disclosure are free from the pain of betrayal. The trust that has been lost. The hurt from not keeping up our end of the deal when we are supposedly telling our SO's all about us. WE leave out a vital piece of information. One that our prospective SO's should be entitled to so they can make a decision whether or not to move forward with the relationship and form a commitment.

In most cases, it is not the CDing itself which is the primary cause of relationship difficulties after disclosure. It is the feelings of betrayal. The hurt, the lost trust. The time lost due to an SO who must now relearn an entire way of thinking and feeling about their partner. They are burdened not only with that above which I have mentioned, but now must simultaneously adjust to the changes of which many are not knowledgeable of, or initially comfortable with. It takes time and a lot of it to become knowledgeable and to become comfortable with it. And it takes a lot of time to heal the wounds of betrayal. To be able to regain trust. All of that which if there was early disclosure we and they would never have to go through.

Sure, there are all kinds of reasons why, but none of them are good enough. Not in my opinion anyway. And it is what I regret the most in life, not telling her, not giving her the choice. Making her lose trust and feel awkward of that which she has known very little, and the discomfort. My biggest do over in life would have come 4 and a half years ago. I would have told her then. We end up rolling the dice eventually, and it only gets harder the longer it goes on, so why not spare all the negativity that comes with late disclosure or being caught.

[Dianne S]

I one of those who told my wife before we were married. Even so, she thinks I didn't tell the "whole truth" and minimized the importance of crossdressing to me. I remember it differently, but hey... she could be right. :)

I think it's always better to disclose before you get too far into a relationship; I think if my wife had found out after 15 years of marriage our marriage would have ended. It's far better to take the risk of disclosure when there's less at stake.

Having said that, I completely understand why some people might not disclose until well into the marriage. It's a very scary thing to do. I'm not judging those who did not disclose; I don't know what it's like to be in their positions. But if you are in a new relationship and are contemplating long-term commitment, I strongly urge you to disclose before you become deeply entangled.

Some lies are healthy for a relationship. "Honey, do you like my hair? Do I look fat in this? I really loved that film; what did you think?" But lying about crossdressing, even by omission, is most definitely not gonna be healthy. It's simply too big and important an issue.

[Veronica27]

When I was a young boy, there was no internet, no computers, no television, no air conditioners and no cell phones. Most people had ice boxes, coal fired furnaces, and many of our neighbours' automobiles (1920's vintage) were on blocks awaiting the end of the war and gasoline and rubber rationing. Technicolor movies were in their infancy and sexual reassignment surgery was still a decade or so away. People were more concerned with the war effort, and getting over the effects of the depression than whether anybody wanted to mate with the same sex, or dress like the opposite sex. After the war, the emphasis was on getting life back to normal and dealing with the impact of the baby boom generation on schools, housing and other scarce resources to worry about some vague thing called transvestism. Boys and men were supposed to do the things expected of boys and men. There was no time to deal with esoteric issues such as "self esteem" "attention deficit disorder" or any of the other modern childhood afflictions that may or may not be either dreamed up or the product of modern schooling and disciplinarian shortcomings.

It was during this period that I reached puberty and began sensing the curiosities about life that led to a lifetime of crossdressing activity. Given the attitudes and necessities of the times, you had a not unexpected feeling of guilt and shame about such transgressions. It was fun to do, but so were most of the "sins" of the day about which you were constantly reminded. It is no wonder that this "habit" or "diversion" became such a personal secret that you dared not disclose to anybody. There was nowhere to turn for information, advice or support. Anything you did happen to read considered it to be a psychological disorder to be treated with electric shock therapy or other forms of aversion therapy. For example, you were dressed up in women's clothing and then fed something that would make you violently throw up, so that you associated crossdressing with horrendous feelings.

This was also an era when pre-marital sex was one of the worst sins, just short of murder. People tended to be virgins when they married. Marriage, with its anticipated sexual intimacy, seemed like something that surely would eliminate any desires for wearing female clothing. The discovery that these feelings were returning was devastating from a mental standpoint. Keep in mind that it was still the early 1960's when I was now a married man, realizing that after a number of years of abstinence from crossdressing after courting my wife to be, and then establishing our marital home life, that my desires were now returning. Attitudes had not changed and the secret was now a more worrisome thing than ever before.

Yes, I bristle now, when I read posts that proclaim we are liars for having our secrets. These seemingly altruistic opinions in most cases were formed long after the era that I am referring to. They are the opinions of those who cannot understand the mentality that created that secret, just like the population in general cannot understand the desire to crossdress. Nicole Scott referred to the "you must tell" people and that could be extended to include the "you must go out" people. I used to think of this as merely foolhardy advice, but I am beginning to see it as self-serving by those promoting a TG rights agenda. For most of those who post, such a message is totally unintentional, and we probably all contribute to that at one time or another when we disclose our thoughts feelings or desires. That message, however, tends to imply that not telling or not being out is somehow morally wrong. It does not take into consideration ingrained feelings of morality, and assumes that a lifetime of such feelings can easily be discarded.

Veronica

[Lorileah]

just like the population in general cannot understand the desire to crossdress. Of course they can't Most are doing it on the sly...who sneaks around doing things? People who are doing something wrong, right. So it is self fulfilling but that isn't what I was responding to...

Nicole Scott referred to the "you must tell" people... Quick aside here, it isn't you must tell PEOPLE...it is you must tell the one you promised to be honest with forever and ever, ok back to the point
and that could be extended to include the "you must go out" people. I used to think of this as merely foolhardy advice, but I am beginning to see it as self-serving by those promoting a TG rights agenda. OK here is where I need to protest. It isn't TG rights it is HUMAN rights, the right to do everything everyone else gets to do without question. And there is no agenda except to have everyone on an equal footing.

I love how things get twisted around here and everyone starts yelling from the highest hill. OK scenario

Wife: Honey I noticed my lingerie has been moved or rearranged, do you now how this happened?
Husband "Uh no dear" That is a lie...right? we agree? So it is no longer a omission, it is a lie. And trust me your wife remembers that when 20 years later you say "I crossdress." That raises its head and the wife says "Wait a minute, you said...." And now there is 20 years between so she has to think..."WTH else didn't you tell me? I remember asking if you were seeing someone else...you said no...but now I wonder. Oh and the check that was written for 50$ cash....where did you spend our money and for what? Oh and when I asked if you are gay? You said no...but that was 20 years ago too...Hmmm" How many times do we have to explain that it isn't the fact you dress, it isthe fact you think you know more than your spouse and you think you can make their minds up for them and you don't allow them to decide early on if this is a deal breaker or not and now 20 years are gone, 20 years she could have maybe been doing something else with her life. But you don't understand that. You don't get how your keeping things from her, hurts HER. You are protecting yourself though.

And yes, I am one of those TG rights people because I think that every one should be paid the same wage, be able to live where they want, use any public facilities they desire, get married to who they love. I don't see that as being for a specific group, I would say the same even for people in any situation.


It does not take into consideration ingrained feelings of morality, and assumes that a lifetime of such feelings can easily be discarded. Yes it is hard to discard misplaced feelings, unteach wrong feelings, relearn something (and admit, this is all learned response.) But we have in the last 80 years done just that. We know that things we were taught are incorrect. Yet, we now have equal rights legally for other groups.

[Michelle (Oz)]

To tell or not to tell is a highly personal and complex decision with often profound (positive and negative) consequences. Both sides of the debate have made strong arguments to support their positions. Bottom line is that anyone giving advice does not have to live with the consequences.

I know personally the costs and benefits. I can and do offer personal support and advice to anyone who has to deal with the consequences of discovery.


Nicole Scott referred to the "you must tell" people and that could be extended to include the "you must go out" people. I used to think of this as merely foolhardy advice, but I am beginning to see it as self-serving by those promoting a TG rights agenda. For most of those who post, such a message is totally unintentional .... Veronica
I must join the protest on this. I will happily share my experiences in going out and the general level of tolerance if not acceptance I find with the public. I do so to encourage those who would like to venture out but are too fearful of reactions. Frankly I don't need others to go out dressed and my agenda is simply to support those who would like to try.

We are all intelligent people - take the experience of others into account and make your own decisions as to whether to tell your SO or whether to go out in public.

[Karren H]

I didn't lie..... contrary to my wife's beliefs... not telling someone isn't lying... imho

[Alaina R]

Twenty years ago I was in a Men's therapy group where, by happenstance, three of six guys were closet crossdressers (including me). One guy had not told his wife of 15 years and said he would never tell her because he felt it would hurt her and her feelings about him. He absolutely adored his wife and did not wish to hurt her or their relationship in any way. I hope he was able maintain that stance as I'd hate to think his wife ended up feeling betrayed by him as I know was not the case.
That said, I think those who say a willful omission is not a lie are playing semantic games.
Many years ago I was stockbroker. When selling, under corporate pressure, a product that I was less than thrilled with, I often thought that the most important thing in the sale wasn't what I said but what I didn't say. Why? Because what I knew but didn't say would have killed the sale. Is this comparable to holding back on telling about your CDing? Maybe not exactly, but this is an essential piece of yourself which I think you owe the person you are marrying - it's too big a deal to hold back.

[Zooey]

I didn't lie..... contrary to my wife's beliefs... not telling someone isn't lying... imho

I think that depends on the motivation. If the reason you didn't tell is because you knew it was going to be a problem, it's a bit different than an inadvertent omission. :P

My SO doesn't think I'm a bad person for not telling her earlier in our relationship, and yes, she had to drag it out of me when she suspected. She was very hurt that I kept something important from her, and that hurt our trust. When somebody keeps something important from you, especially when it's a person you love and care for deeply, you have to wonder what else they're keeping from you. It's human nature, and I don't blame her for it one bit. I'd feel the same way.

"Coming out" to her has probably been the best thing I've ever done. Not because she's super in love with the dressing, but because I've been able to remember what it's like to not have any secrets, and our communication is so much better as a result. It's taken a lot of work to get there, and we're by no means perfect, but it's been worth it.

[AllieSF]

I am really enjoying this thread. I am also of the camp that believes that not telling is definitely not lying. If anyone wants to argue go find me the dictionary version of that definition. I am not saying that not telling is necessarily good either. To me it depends on the circumstances and all the details that we never really know as members here based on a few posts by someone.

The reason I do not like others calling not telling a lie, is that the word, "lie" in itself always has negative connotations. The initial thought, which many times is very difficult to change, is that the liar did something wrong. The "liar" is labeled as a bad person immediately, whether stated overtly or hinted at in comments by others. However, when someone holds back on telling, sharing important information about themselves from the other party to an important relationship, it does not necessarily mean that they are being bad and should be shamed as many like to do here to those who do not tell. I am not saying that one should not tell. I always think that telling is the best route. However, no one lives in the shoes of the other person and cannot know all of the reasons why someone does not tell. I believe that there are certain situations where telling may cause more harm than good, if both parties are in a happy and very workable relationship prior to the big reveal. Each person needs to decide for themselves when is the best time, if any to tell, and also be ready to deal with the consequences of their own decisions.

[mariehart]

Well by the definition of some. I am definitely a liar and I'm beginning to feel that they have a point. Because I accepted that I was TS and actually came out to some people before I even met my future wife. Indeed even my motivation for starting to date was in a way to prove something. I had no intention of getting married and never actually expected anything to come of it. I didn't tell her then because it wasn't a consideration as I expected it not to last. I suspect if I told her she would have ended the relationship and as I was enjoying her company. I really didn't want that to happen, still don't.
But it did last and I ended up getting married. Believe me no one was more surprised than me to end up at the altar and later have two kids.

I remember when I did come out a friend. She commented that 'At least you weren't married when this came out.' Well that changed.

To be fair I have stated before that I believe she has an inkling. She knows I've bought and worn women's clothing. Indeed I gave her some when I realised they didn't fit me. She's called 'A bit of woman' on occasion. She told me that when we were dating that she thought I might be gay because I wasn't behaving the way she'd experienced in other men. Somehow though I don't think she wants to know because she doesn't want to deal with it directly. This I believe because I know her by now. She avoids situations.

So I'm left between a rock and a hard place. Guilty for not telling her but frustrated I cannot tell her.

There's no easy answer.

[angela2112]

I posted this on here more than 6 years ago and it's still relevant now.......

All too often with us C/Ders it always has to be about US,how WE feel,about OUR feelings,why can't our SO's accept US......yadda yadda yadda ! To read some of the posts on here it's plainly obvious that a lot of us never get out of our own arses.....and i'm included very much in this category.

Sometimes it would do all of us a lot of good to have a good look at ourselves,stop being so selfish (me me me,what about me!) and try to look at CDing from other peoples (SO's) perspectives. Some SO's can accept it,some can't but no point complaining about it if they can't accept their man wearing a dress.

My best friends are CDers,a nicer bunch of folks you would never meet but the "me myself and I " syndrome comes across loud and clear. I know it's not easy and lots of us have sad tales to tell and some have had crappy lives because of folks finding out and being outed etc etc but that's no excuse to blame SO's for what is still(and you can like it or not) regarded by most folks as a perversion.

Sometimes maybe we all need to have a reality check....It's a hell of a lot to expect our partners to go along with/accepting us wanting to look like a girl......sometimes,just sometimes taking a step back and having a wee think about their feelings would do all of us the world of good

[michelle64]

I told 1st date..been together now for years...i personally dont give a **** what you do..bottom line is if you dont tell she will find out..you will leave something out that she will find..oh well its your problem..enjoy it when she finds out-and she will believe me..my wife unit still amazes me after all these years with what she does (seriously you mowed the grass with no oil in the engine sorta thing) and what is actually going thru her brain...I recently donated my forms to breast cancer survivor charity and it was one of best days ever for the both of us that i/we did that..we both went out and celebrated with her buying me some nice stuff later on...keep lying to yourself and i dont give a damn anymore on those who come in here crying about why there SO has an issue..Cd'ers some times make the dumbest decisions like new coke formula dumb decisions...

[Tina_gm]

We can and have (those who did not reveal early on, myself included) been very clever with semantics about not actually lying. I find it hard to think that someone who has actively crossdressed and kept it a secret from an SO for a number of years has at some point not crossed the actual lie barrier. But EVEN if somehow it has/had been accomplished, does that make what we have or more aptly have not said any better?

So often comes the gripes about how we have had to live secret lives and hide our desires and activities from the general society. Yet, IMO, far too many here are making acceptable excuses for doing the same exact thing with our SO's. They have bared all to us but we have not reciprocated back. And whatever you want to call it, our relationships were or are being lived under false pretenses.

I just truly believe in my heart that our SO's deserve to know everything about us if they have made strong and most often lifetime commitments to us. They should get all of the facts about who we are. They should be allowed to make that choice to commit based on as much information about us as there is to make. And we should expect and do from them.

But what so many of us who are excusing our poor choice in not telling seem not to even realize, is that we in fact only cause ourselves more grief and anxiety. Of the active crossdressers who had or have not told, how much effort gets put into keeping it a secret? A lot of hoops get jumped through wasting precious time in life that could be spent doing more productive things, let alone the freedom to dress without the high anxiety and stress. Even if one is in a DADT relationship, removing the anxiety stress and fear of being caught is so much of a relief.

While there are and have been some who will take that secret to the grave, most likely it will get found out one way or another in the end anyway. And when it does the relationship will suffer a setback. It may never fully recover from the setback and it may destroy the relationship altogether.

The anger, betrayal, the fear, the disconnect our SO's feel is not from the CDing itself, but of finding out later on after a commitment has been made. One thing my wife said to me that really hit home about all this. She bared her soul to me and trusted me with everything about her life. And one of the things that hurts her most, and tears came when she said it was that I did not trust her with telling her.


The amount of negativity that comes from not telling our SO's so outweighs whatever positive if any that comes from not telling. I guess the only positive we can really get is to make it easier for ourselves in the early going to get our SO's to commit to us. But that early easy road so often comes back to bite us so hard in the end with the hurt we cause. We love them so much and we would never want to hurt them with. But, with not telling about our crossdressing and when they do eventually find out we end up hurting them so much more. And all we have accomplished for ourselves is placing more limitations on ourselves with added stress and anxiety along the way.

[TanyaR]

As the wife of a CD who didn't find out until after 20 years of marriage, I have to say this is an interesting post.
IMHO, I was LIED to. Sugar coat it how ever you want, but keeping a "secret" of this magnatude is a lie. You didn't say you liked a gift she gave you, even if you really didn't. Tell her she looked great even when you didn't think so. You KEPT an important part of yourself from your SO.
Does my head understand the "fear, shame and guilt"? Yes. I have even cried thinking about what my husband has been through. The pain and shame and guilt.
Does my heart understand how he could keep it from me? LIE to me for so many years? NO! He knew and knows all aspects of me - the good, the bad and the ugly so to say. I was and have been completely honest with him. He was not.
Does this make him some kind of evil, unforgiving, bad person? Hell No. But to say not telling your SO by omission not a LIE is offensive and like a slap in the face. And one sure fire way to make your SO not trust you.
It's been a year now since I found out. A hell of a years. A year of me trying to "catch" up to where he is. To get to know her as I can. A year of trying to figure out where she fits into our family and marriage. A year of me trying to trust him again and not think everything these past 21 years were a lie. My CHOICE was taking away by his so called omission. My choice to marry him, have children, live the life we have lived. If I had known the truth it may have been different, but then again it may have not. I will never know what choice I would have made. And that hurts and can damage a marriage.
And I leave those who haven't told a question:
How can you live a lie? Why would you want to live a lie?
Life is to short and beautiful to be anyone other than who you are. Whether with someone or alone. Live the beautiful life of being who you are.

[Dianne S]

IMHO, I was LIED to.

TanyaR is exactly right. We can rationalize it all we want, but keeping something as big as crossdressing secret from a potential spouse is lying about who you are in a very fundamental way.

[jenni_xx]

I've commented on this thread before. I, and the people who read my post (if they understood it correctly), know how I feel about this. It is too harsh to say that not telling our partners is simply lying. But it isn't incorrect to say that a cd not telling their partner is withholding the truth. Does not disclosing the truth amount to lying? I don't think it does. At worst, it simply amounts to not being totally open. A lie on the other hand would be a misdirection. For example, a partner says "are you a crossdresser", and you reply "no", that would be a lie. Yet a partner never asking if you were a crossdresser would never result in you having to answer a question that has never been asked.

It's clearly not as simple as that. The presumption will be, from our partners, that we don't crossdress. It simply won't be a thought that would have entered their mind, hence why they would never ask such a question. But even if the question hasn't been asked, then we (the cd), isn't being open, isn't being totally honest about who they are, so by that definition alone, we are with-holding a truth about ourselves. And it is a truth about ourselves that, if it ever came out, would result in our partners looking at us very differently. They may accept us after this truth is revealed. They may not. But the bottom line is, the inescapable fact is, in holding back a truth about ourselves to our partner, we are holding back a significant part of our character.

And that is where the problems start. The problem with our partner accepting us. I got some flak from Isha earlier in this thread for saying what I'm about to say, but I'll say it anyway. It is better to be honest, right from the start. I understand that for many, that time has long been and gone. But for those, they are faced with a situation that isn't ideal. Meaning that they have to make the most of the situation in which they do reveal themselves.

I, personally, can not escape my own view. I regard my crossdressing as nothing to be ashamed of. As nothing that I have to hide. It is a part of me, it is a significant part of who I am. If people don't accept this part of me, then they can never accept me totally. So long ago I came to the only logical conclusion I could. And that is - be honest about who I am, and if others accept me, then great. If they don't, then that's their problem, not mine. It took me a while to reach that stage, but hand on heart, I am so much more happy for it. I am now an open book. My advice would be for all of us to try and reach that stage. For not only will it result in surrounding yourself with people who accept you, it will do wonders with you accepting yourself.

[Julie York]

I can sort all this out for you. :)

What people are doing when they don't tell... is Deceiving someone. They are NOT lying, they are being deceitful.

OK make it a sticky then we never need to have this conversation again :)

Thank you.

[AllieSF]

Unless a lie was told, not a lie. Go read it in the dictionary. Withholding very important information is not good either. One might react the same when a lie is found out or withheld information is revealed, but .. they are two different definitions. That is what part of this thread is about, as I understand the thread.

One is meant to deliberately mislead, while the other is meant to deliberately hide and not share. End results may be the same, while reasons may not be.

I am not trying to diminish or understate the pain, et al, that one may feel when the hidden is revealed. I am just trying to clear up a poor mis-use of definitions, one of which many times carries unwarranted negative connotations.

[jenni_xx]

Julie York raises a very good, and very literal, point. A point that is hard to ignore.

It is however a point that gets right at the heart of the semantics of it all.

When a partner, who has just found out that her SO is a crossdresser, accuses her partner of lying to her, what is she actually saying? Where does her problem lie? If her partner says to to her "but I never lied to you", would she respond by saying "well no, you actually didn't, so that makes everything ok", or is she more likely to respond by saying "that's immaterial, you're not the person I thought you was"?

The point is that semantics only play a part. And the part they play only has any significance in the cold light of day. Never in the heat of the emotion. The point being that we can twist it, justify it, label it how we want - doing so is to be literal. But being literal doesn't sit at all well with the emotional. And it's the emotional that we'll all have to deal with should such a time come.

A point which answers AllieSF's point - yes - Alllie is right - we can all go and read it in a dictionary. Unfortunately however, we don't live our lives by dictionary defintion. Meaning that such replies are simply moot.

[TanyaR]

I NOW understand what the difference is in the dictionary. Thank you for clearing up the fact that he was only dishonest for 20 years, not lying about a part of who he really is.

I will make sure to add "ask if he is likes to cross dress" to the list of questions I tell my teenage daughters to ask the guys they are dating. That was one question I never thought to ask.

[jenni_xx]

TanyaR - who is your post aimed at?

[Jenniferathome]

....One is meant to deliberately mislead, while the other is meant to deliberately hide and not share. End results may be the same, while reasons may not be.

I am not trying to diminish or understate the pain, et al, that one may feel when the hidden is revealed. I am just trying to clear up a poor mis-use of definitions, one of which many times carries unwarranted negative connotations.

So Allie, you know my situation. After 20+ years, I came clean. My wife was not equipped to even ask if I was a cross dresser when we first started dating. It simply is not in the realm of possible questions. So while I withheld the info, had she somehow asked, I would have lied, way back when. I am sure that any other cross dresser would do the same until they are ready to come out. So, even though I was not asked, I know I would have lied. Withholding any significant information is no different than a lie, even if a different verb has to be used. Maybe that's the rub of the semantics.

[TanyaR]

Jennixx - no one per say.
Just found it amusing getting the "dictionary" reference.
Some one made the point about if we didn't ask if they were crossdressers. I know I never did. Lol.
I also must have been typing as you were posting. As I didn't see yours until now.
Sorry I forget how sarcastic I can be sometimes.

[jenni_xx]

Thanks Tanya.

I agree with you. And the "dictionary" reference is amusing at best, completely irrelevant at worst.

I think both you and I are on the same page. Figuratively speaking, of course! :)

x

[Lorileah]

What people are doing when they don't tell... is Deceiving someone. They are NOT lying, they are being deceitful.



Julie York raises a very good, and very literal, point. A point that is hard to ignore.

It is however a point that gets right at the heart of the semantics of it all.

The point is that semantics only play a part. And the part they play only has any significance in the cold light of day. Never in the heat of the emotion. The point being that we can twist it, justify it, label it how we want - doing so is to be literal. But being literal doesn't sit at all well with the emotional. And it's the emotional that we'll all have to deal with should such a time come.

A point which answers AllieSF's point - yes - Alllie is right - we can all go and read it in a dictionary. Unfortunately however, we don't live our lives by dictionary defintion. Meaning that such replies are simply moot.

I love these posts for two reasons. The first Julie is looking at it from a very MALE stand point. Logic and literal definition. Great in sales, pretty good in politics (I did not have sexual relations with that woman) but not so good with real live people who we should care for.

Jenni shows it from the female side. Where words can and do have alternate meanings. The sky can be blue or it can be azure or it can be sky blue. Subtle maybe but not as sharp delineation. Also so many here don't see how it does effect the SO...the one who has her (his maybe) world where they think they know their spouse. And I also agree that it would be very rare for the CD to never actually definitively lie. I pointed this out earlier. When you get caught...the first time...many tell one of two lies. The most common? "No, I don't dress...I did it on a lark...it was just the one time." Which leads to the second REAL lie. "I will never do it again." So if we want to stay literal, how many CDs told one of THOSE lies? So it is a lie when you are confronted and you deny...Hmm:thinking:



IMHO, I was LIED to. Sugar coat it how ever you want, but keeping a "secret" of this magnatude is a lie. ...
to say not telling your SO by omission not a LIE is offensive and like a slap in the face. And one sure fire way to make your SO not trust you.
... My CHOICE was taking away by his so called omission. My choice to marry him, have children, live the life we have lived. and I want to make the next point really stand out...for all those who were selfish enough to think of their own happiness and disregard their SO's
If I had known the truth it may have been different, but then again it may have not. I will never know what choice I would have made. And that hurts and can damage a marriage.
I have been on the receiving end of that when my GF didn't think I could handle some information. Let me tell it hurts, it hurts just like the worst physical injury you males here have ever felt in a sporting event before you got your cup.

and the most salient quote of the day...thank you Tanya
Life is to short and beautiful to be anyone other than who you are. Whether with someone or alone. Live the beautiful life of being who you are.:clap:

[MatildaJ.]

Here's another way to look at it. A lot of women don't understand their husband's desire to masturbate. Their husbands often find ways to hide that act (staying up after the wife goes to bed, for instance, or getting up early). But when the husbands get caught, it usually doesn't end the marriage. And the wives don't usually say, "you're not the person I thought you were."

Similarly, with crossdressing, if the guy can explain to his wife that this is a small but necessary part of his life, and he won't do it when she's around, and it's not even that unusual... I think many wives would be okay with that. And I don't necessarily blame CD'ers who keep the CDing to themselves, as long as it's a minor part of their lives (since I think their wives would prefer not to have to think about this minor but icky trait).

The problem comes when the CDing blows up from a minor, easily hidden part of life into a major obsession. At that point, no wonder the wives feel that "you're not the person I thought you were." If he wanted to spend all his free time masturbating, wearing diapers, or locked in a dungeon (or any other non-socially acceptable form of adult play), she would also be upset that he had changed into a different person than the one she thought she had married.

So keep your CDing to a minimum, and it barely matters whether you reveal it or keep it private. But if the CDing becomes a major part of your life, then realize it won't stay secret, and try to consider how best to bring it up with her, to reduce the chances she feels deceived, and increase the chances she comes to see it as a fun way to spice up your marriage.

[mariehart]

I agree with Jess and I've said it before effectively CDing is effectively a hobby, like any other hobby men do. But with often complex motivations and indeed implications for the women in their lives.

Of course if it was just like Golf and socially acceptable if not always understood. We wouldn't be having this debate. It isn't.

Part of the problem is people like me, whose reasons for crossdressing are more fundamental than something interesting to do at the weekend. Then there's others for whom crossdressing is a fetish and a sexual thrill. Neither is particularly palatable to the average spouse.

All too often the key to understanding and tolerance is knowledge and experience and crossdressing is not something the average person knows about or experiences. Neither do they want to and we shouldn't expect them too.

To those who suggest being upfront is the ONLY way to go. I disagree. No two people's lives are the same. There is no one size fits all solution. This is not a soap opera with a storyline and a resolution. This is life. My experience of family members who know about me is that they simply don't want to face it or discuss it. They haven't rejected me or changed their attitude to me in an overt way. They know about it but it's as if it never happened. It's 'Don't ask, don't tell' if you like.

As for my wife. I believe she has a similar attitude, she knows but doesn't want to know and frankly it doesn't change her view of me. But I can't be sure. I have to temper my desire to be accepted with her implied denial of it.'You're a man' she said to me the other day in relation to some issue and that's what she wants from me. She's right, she married a man and whatever my demons that's what she wants. A man who can do all the man things and yet be a stay at home homemaker and cook, clean and look after the children while she works. I don't think she's unreasonable even if I wish I could express my real self more.

But life isn't like that. It's all about compromises.

[Lorileah]

I agree with Jess and I've said it before effectively CDing is effectively a hobby, like any other hobby men do. But with often complex motivations and indeed implications for the women in their lives. So if your hobby is say...trains and you spend thousands on said trains but you don't tell your wife...its OK?



As for my wife. I believe she has a similar attitude, she knows but doesn't want to know and frankly it doesn't change her view of me. But you have not asked her. How do you know it isn't boiling under the surface? And if she "knows" then somewhere along the line you did discuss it...right? You are guessing what she thinks again. Sort of like the train engineer who was describing the derailment..."we were going along fine I thought and the the next thing I knew...bang...we were here"

But life isn't like that. It's all about compromises. It does take two to compromise I think...two people with ALL the information to allow for a compromise. If only one has the information it isn't fair. It is one taking advantage of the other. But then again, that is how the world in the US and most civilized countries run. One side has the chips the other thinks they have an even playing field.

In this case, we assume, she "knows" and has chosen (her choice) to let it ride as a DADT. Have you ever actually talked about it?

[Jenniferathome]

Here's another way to look at it. A lot of women don't understand their husband's desire to masturbate. Their husbands often find ways to hide that act (staying up after the wife goes to bed, for instance, or getting up early). But when the husbands get caught, it usually doesn't end the marriage. And the wives don't usually say, "you're not the person I thought you were."

But Jess, every woman knows that men do this. It may not be discussed and it may repulse, but there is no surprise in the fact that it happens AND most importantly it is normal. No woman thinks, "men cross dress." Cross dressing is totally foreign and therefore quite different from your example.

[NicoleScott]

If you spend too much money or time on trains or golf, don't blame trains or golf. Blame spending too much.
If a man fulfills all his manly duties: provider, chores, parenting, man-in-the-bedroom-husband, etc. but also likes to spend a little private time dressing up, and the wife knows but prefers not to know, what's the frickin' problem? They have settled into a arrangement that they are both comfortable with, even if that arrangement was not openly negotiated. They both know the deal. Is it really necessary to have that frequent open discussion about CDing that neither really wants to have, just to say you didn't lie?
I never was asked, so I didn't lie. But yes, I know now that I should have told before I married, but I honestly believed my sexual energy would be re-directed towards my bride and that the CDing desire would go away. Sure, I was wrong, but not dishonest. Many of us have found ourselves in that situation where we didn't tell for honest reasons. We know that now, and we'll be the first to say "at some point, when it is getting serious, tell her".
When you're up to your waist in quicksand, it doesn't do any good to hear "you shouldn't have walked there".

[Lorileah]

When you're up to your waist in quicksand, it doesn't do any good to hear "you shouldn't have walked there".

But you should accept the rope that is thrown thrown and/or warn others not to go there...:)

and again you make the assumption that the SO knows...you don't know they know. Main point here is that they should have the right to be in on the decision early in the relationship. Meh :idontknow: so few here can see the other side, they see what they want to see and they think they know what the SO would want. Think for a minute, if your SO controlled everything assuming they knew what you wanted...

OK doesn't matter, the ground has been covered, the quicksand pit is there and the signs have been posted. I assume you know not to walk there.

[mariehart]

So if your hobby is say...trains and you spend thousands on said trains but you don't tell your wife...its OK?But that verges on sophistry. It's not trains. I do have a sort of hobby. I don't tell her what I paid for it. Most men know that their women don't get their enthusiasms. My sister in law's husband is into tractors, farm tractors. She has no interest but it results in him and her travelling around the country visiting interesting places and yes occasionally viewing Massey Fergusons. But mainly it's a weekend away. I personally think an interest in farm tractors is more odd than dressing in women's clothes. But hey that's just me.



But you have not asked her. How do you know it isn't boiling under the surface? And if she "knows" then somewhere along the line you did discuss it...right? You are guessing what she thinks again. Sort of like the train engineer who was describing the derailment..."we were going along fine I thought and the the next thing I knew...bang...we were here"
It does take two to compromise I think...two people with ALL the information to allow for a compromise. If only one has the information it isn't fair. It is one taking advantage of the other. But then again, that is how the world in the US and most civilized countries run. One side has the chips the other thinks they have an even playing field.No I haven't asked her. There's a good reason for that and it's to do with her family background which is highly conservative. It isn't boiling under the surface. What mostly boils with her is her career which is intense because of her position in the hospital she works for. She comes from a family of high achievers, six sisters and two brothers. That is what motivates her.


In this case, we assume, she "knows" and has chosen (her choice) to let it ride as a DADT. Have you ever actually talked about it?No, she has 'indicated' she doesn't want to go down that road. We both watch a programme called 'Ladyboys' about Thai Ladyboys. We both talk frankly about it and it's clear she knows the subject as I do. She is after all a Medical Scientist. But neither of us cross the line and bring to subject to me.

This is a frustration for me. But I know the woman and I love her enough not to distress her after all her career is what's important and appearance is vital.

[kimdl93]

Gee, did Lori suggest the "model train" straw man to begin with? I don't think so.

I see repeated rationalizations by males who what to cling to the notion that its ok to hide their little hobby from their wives. I understand that a person can withhold information because they are wracked with guilt, confused about one's identity, or clinging to the hope that "it might go away".

I am more troubled by what seems the condescending notion that a person is doing their spouse a favor by hiding information from her, or presuming tacit acceptance because the subject is never formally broached.

[mariehart]

You might presume that the person knows the woman they married and can read the signals. That's not condescending that's understanding.

Several times I read here that the marriage fell apart when CDing was admitted. Really is that true? Is that ALL that was involved? Like the story of the man who admitted to his wife he was Cree Indian because he loved her so much and he was sure she would understood, only to find she barricaded him out of her life. Really? He lived with her all those years and didn't know she hated Indians and that was all that persuaded her to close him out and NOTHING else? He knew her so little that he assumed she would understand?

Marriages fall apart for all sort of reasons. There is never one reason but often there is the famous straw and the camel's back. I worked in aviation and when it comes to accidents there is never one reason, always there is a string of situations leading to the incident. It's the same in life. If a relationship is strong no one problem leads to a split. If it's not, it's an accident waiting to happen.

My point, such as it is. Is that there is no one size fits all solution. I could simply tell my wife tomorrow how it is. In the walled garden of this forum the result would be merely interesting. In my life it could be devastating or it could be positive. I simply don't know. It's a gamble I'm reluctant to take.

[kimdl93]

Marie, if the apocryphal Cree Indian was rejected by his wife because of who he was, did he make a mistake in assuming she would place her knowledge of him above her prejudices? Would he have been wiser to continue to hide his identity, lest she "learn the worst"? What if she accidently came upon proof of his origins?

As you say, accidents of all kind happen and often there is no singular cause. I'd submit that you're gambling with each day that the secret remains hidden. If you fear your wife's prejudices may be as deep as the woman in the story, then you really have only a few choices. First, hope you never make a mistake - no unforeseen circumstances, no omissions or errors in hiding yourself. Second, abandon and suppress your CDing as deeply as your capable of doing and thereby assure there will never be an accidental exposure. Or third, find a way to introduce this part of yourself to your spouse as a calculated risk.

[Marcelle]

Wow . . . talk about a thread polarizing a debate. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one. :)

The original point of my thread is that we get it . . . we lied or as some have said, been deceitful, withheld truths and just been all around bad girls . . . go stand in the corner. :devil: Each of us has to live with the consequences of that decision (good or bad) and each will have to find peace the best way they can. But that is for us and not the collective moral majority to deal with. Do I regret what I did? Yes. Do ensure my wife knows I love her? Always have and always will.

There is a fundamental difference between sharing your views on this subject with those who have not come out. Specifically "learn from my mistakes" or "here is a suggestion which may help you" or "we are here to support you whatever your decision is" from "you need to come out right now or suffer the consequences because I know best".

The problem with advice is that it can be dangerous to people holding out a hand for help. Like a drowning swimmer they reach out and grab it because they see it as a lifeline, no questions asked or thought given. So if advice givers brow beat someone to come out before they are ready and they do and it goes very bad what do you loose? Nothing. What does that person loose, perhaps everything because it wasn't the correct time to come out.

Here is a hypothetical moral debate for those who think they have all the answers. How would you feel if that person who you shamed to come out early looses everything and then decides to end their life or the lives of others? Chances are you won't know because that person will just cease to exist on this forum. Being somewhat educated on the human psychological condition, don't assume that everyone who gravitates to this forum is psychologically sound. Bad advice regardless of the moral reasoning could be just enough to ruin a person's life and cause a psychotic break. The moral high ground is fine but temper it with wisdom and caution because sometimes thing look very simple from such a high position.

I fail to see what all this "us" "them" gets any of us. Isn't the intent of this forum, support, constructive advice and a mutual good time? Not, trying to make others feel even worse then they already do. If you are one of the few who told your SO right away, take that as a win for yourself, feel good and I only wish I had the courage to do so from the beginning. However, don't use it as a tool to make yourself superior over those who truly want your help and guidance. Use you advice wisely and don't squander it on a personal agenda, that is how people get hurt.

The one post I read which resonates well and perhaps I agree with the most is below.



To tell or not to tell is a highly personal and complex decision with often profound (positive and negative) consequences. Bottom line is that anyone giving advice does not have to live with the consequences . . . We are all intelligent people - take the experience of others into account and make your own decisions as to whether to tell your SO or whether to go out in public.

[AllieSF]

Actually Kim, Marie has already stated that she is taking a calculated risk by not telling. In fact, all of your 3 options are calculated risks. As always stated, I agree that it is better to tell. However, everyone's situation is unique and each person needs to make their own decision and accept whatever consequences may come from that decision. We do that almost everyday when we make a decision to do or not do something, whether speeding, arguing/discussing a sensitive issue with our boss, or telling our SO about something very private to us. From what I remember from the original OP topic, this thread is not about whether one should tell or not, but rather it is to cut the keepers of the secret some slack and that they are not necessarily evil and bad people. I agree with that request.

Some members here like to jump on people that have not yet told, or to jump on the "I told you so" band wagon after they told or got caught and the SO went ballistic. Some like to believe that crossdressing by itself will never be the prime reason to end a relationship after their hobby is revealed or has been found out. In my 6 plus years here I have read a lot of posts where the relationship ended for just that reason.

PS: I need to correct previous posts above. This thread is not about whether it is a lie to not tell your SO. I got caught up in the side topics generated by this thread. Sorry.

[MatildaJ.]

But Jess, every woman knows that men do this.
They don't know the content of the porn, and it may upset them as much as crossdressing.

My point is that this board gets so caught up in arguing over secrecy/lies, when I think the bigger issue in most marriages is how much energy starts going into the crossdressing. Sure, some wives can't even put up with the idea that their husband ever has the desire to CD. But I think most wives could manage to cope with the idea of a CDing husband, if it stayed a minor aspect of their lives. I think many wives put up with husbands underdressing, for instance.

[scarlett]

I'm not at all surprised that views are polarised. I was accused of lying and entrapment when I came out to my wife some 3 years after first forming our partnership. I don't believe I did - just the return of my need/urge to dress after more than 3 years hiatus.

I also understand our wive's views and accept that they have genuine reasons for feeling lied to and deceived.

The book recommended by Reine looks very helpful even now some 15 months post reveal as my wife and I continue to deal with the elephant in the room.

Might be helpful if you have a B&N acoount but I can't see it. I am VERY suspicious of anything from Zondervon being helpful to us.

[Babeba]

But that verges on sophistry. It's not trains. I do have a sort of hobby. I don't tell her what I paid for it. Most men know that their women don't get their enthusiasms. My sister in law's husband is into tractors, farm tractors. She has no interest but it results in him and her travelling around the country visiting interesting places and yes occasionally viewing Massey Fergusons. But mainly it's a weekend away. I personally think an interest in farm tractors is more odd than dressing in women's clothes. But hey that's just me.
I'd say the difference is the tractor crowd has a different sort of audience which women/non participatory family members can get on board with, though - tractor pulls (which is truly one of the big points of vintage tractors) generally have the whole family around, so lots of other kids and wives to associate with. CDing quite often is a solitary sort of hobby rather than a group activity. And having said that, I've noted several GG's here who have gone to group meetings with their partners and found it a good experience.

(Side note, I helped pull apart a WD-40 engine today. Well, I helped manoeuver it in place under the shop winch so someone else could lift off the engine block. Actually, I probably wasn't that much help since I was wearing high heeled boots and I couldn't get much traction. But hey, it got me out of the office for 20 minutes!)




No, she has 'indicated' she doesn't want to go down that road. We both watch a programme called 'Ladyboys' about Thai Ladyboys. We both talk frankly about it and it's clear she knows the subject as I do. She is after all a Medical Scientist. But neither of us cross the line and bring to subject to me.

This is a frustration for me. But I know the woman and I love her enough not to distress her after all her career is what's important and appearance is vital.

I wonder - since your wife is obviously a very driven person, and very intelligent - if she wouldn't appreciate a more active role in the decision making process behind crafting your part of that image. You know your wife much better than we do, of course, and I'm being an armchair quarterback here - but she sounds like the sort of person who may want to have all the facts of a case put in front of her.

The quandary is (and this is why I don't judge those who have not told their long term partners) - although the 'big reveal' (if it happens) goes much better when the spouse is told as opposed to stumbling across it by accident, that bell cannot be unrung. For that reason, the decision to tell or not to tell is not one which can be taken lightly as it will most likely involve a great deal of pain and a feeling of deception.

I desperately hope that anyone who reads this forum who gets a new partner learns from the collective experiences of everyone here that it is best to let a prospective partner know this is in store for you both as soon as you can trust them with the knowledge; if you can't trust them with this, they don't deserve to be a special part of your life; if you can trust them but don't tell them, the omission is gravely disrespectful of their right to know what they are getting into, and to fully share their whole lives with their partners and vice versa. But for those who went into marriage not knowing these things which are easy to find out now? I feel very badly for them and their spouses both and wish them the best possible resolution.

[ReineD]

When you're up to your waist in quicksand, it doesn't do any good to hear "you shouldn't have walked there".


But you should accept the rope that is thrown thrown and/or warn others not to go there...:)

This is the crux of the argument.

Those who have told their wives with positive results advocate telling. I was told at the very beginning of my relationship and I advocate telling. Like it or not, it IS much easier for a GG partner to accept when she hasn't felt lied to.

But this does not mean that we crucify those who haven't told.

Why are the people who haven't told taking the advice to tell so personally? What's wrong with suggesting that CDers tell their wives/girlfriends early on if their relationships are only starting? A lot of people read these threads and if we can save one marriage from going bust because the wife did not know in the beginning, then that's a good thing.

The baby-boomer generation understandably could not have told at the beginning of their relationships. They did not have the resources that exist today nor did they have the self-awareness. But, in my view there is absolutely no reason for newcomers to the CDing to not disclose it to their partners in the beginning of their relationships. If the girlfriend or fiancée leaves, then a great deal of pain will have been circumvented in the long run.

[Lorileah]

Here is a hypothetical moral debate for those who think they have all the answers. How would you feel if that person who you shamed to come out early looses everything and then decides to end their life or the lives of others?

OK I ask what about the person who keeps it inside, hides for years, gets caught and their wife leaves...with the same result? Which is worse? I have been here a long time. The number of wives who leave when the husband comes out is equal to the ones whose wives leave because they hid it. That is a poor argument.

And no, most don't get it. Otherwise this thread would have been over long ago. Some still argue they are "protecting" the SO...but they don't see that the SO should have the opportunity to decide if they need protection. I believe most the SOs here are adults, capable of making decisions on their own. I cannot think of any new way to try and show the CDs here that they are being selfish. I have related MY experience many many times, but I guess I will once again for those who are new or have chosen to not read it before.

I had a GF for 15 years. We were doppelgangers in so many ways. I outed myself BEFORE we even met in person. I gave her the choice on that. She accepted it. 15 years, one day she felt something "tear" inside her and within 24 hours she was dead. I found her, called the police, sat through the investigation and questions about her family. She had told me she was never married. I took that for what it was and assumed she didn't have children. I didn't ask. The "not married" was a lie, she was married twice. No biggie, a lot of people have been. BUT I told the police she wasn't. She told me she was 5 years older than I was...she was 9...again no biggie. After 21, what difference does that make? But she also had two children. I didn't ask she didn't tell...BUT I told the police she didn't/ Do I look stupid now? Yes I do. Nothing major, there was a reason I am sure this was to be hidden from me. I will never know. But for several months I felt like literally someone punched me in the gut. OK some here will say "so what. She had her secrets" But you know what not knowing did to me? I looked stupid in front of the police. I looked stupid in front of friends. I missed the opportunity to meet her daughter when she was around. She had to sneak and lie whenever her daughter called. I now have to wonder why she thought I should not know. I wasn't allowed to make a decision on that. Would I have left, no, but she didn't even give me the benefit of saying that myself. That hurts. We were equals supposedly, we were partners. But, I guess everyone has a different idea of equals and partners. Some here still believe they have to protect someone who would really have your back if there was a threat.

Truly, I give up. You all want to justify the fact that you don't trust your spouse enough to share because you can read minds. You don't let them choose if they want to spend the 10-15-20 years with you. Years that if you had told them earlier, you either would have made better together OR they, and you, could have moved on. Made a happy life with no secrets and with trust that was deserving. No, you are all correct here, you know exactly what your spouse would say or do...but you don't trust them enough to decide for themselves.

I will in the next thread about this repeat what I said but right now, I don't care one way or another if you all want to not trust your spouse. Look at the GG responses here. Majority...you have undermined their trust. And you wonder why they won't accept you, why they leave you, why they "prefer" not to hear about it? Why after years of you not trusting them...they no longer trust you. I am outta here.

[Jacqueline Winona]

Reine, your point is well-taken. But it presumes that disclosure won't ruin a relationship, too, and that's where I part company with this line of logic. Yes, if CD is a huge part of your life, one where you will or are spending community money on it and several hours per week, your wife should know. But if this is something you do once or twice every six months? One where you're spending less than most people spend on coffee over the course of the year? No, I don't agree that you "must" disclose. Maybe you should, maybe you shouldn't, but telling people they must when doing so creates a a real strong possibility that you're ending a marriage isn't necessarily the best solution(and even if it does survive, the damage could cause both years of suffering). I just don't see this as good advice for everyone , It's the group-think that I personally detest, that we all have to do something because one or two think we should and that there really is only one way. As for the CD's who have an understanding relationship, where the wife truly does not want to know about the dressing, I say respect her wishes. When the SO wants to know, she will ask, it really is that simple. Wives have hobbies and habits too, and some mine has I'm more than happy to remain in the dark about; they make her happy, I don't get them, don't care to participate in, but they give her an outlet and don't harm anyone.

[Marcelle]

And no, most don't get it. Otherwise this thread would have been over long ago.

My point exactly. Most don't get it and most can't see the others pov it is either "my way or the highway" approach. Every person has the right to make their own decisions "right or wrong" and nobody has the right to tell them otherwise. Provide advice, provide support and so forth but don't judge. That's all I am asking.

Isha

[Secret Drawer]

Part of the problem here is that the issue is being over polarized. Either we are outright wrong or right. However, I can honestly say that when I met my wife I thought two things; Now that I have a steady girlfriend I will probably quit crossdressing. The other, My crossdressing is a highly personal weird thing that I do on occasion and doesn't bear mentioning. Once I came to the realization that it did in fact not go away, and that as we began building a life together that at one point or another I should share this "weird habit that I originally thought didn't bear mentioning!" It became a stress point, not because I did not have trust or had some disillusion about my uncanny 6th sense, but as to how to bring something up that has been a deeply held secret, and in no small part, an unknown "why" in my own head for most of, if not all, my life. Its not about secrets and lies! Its about the confusion in our own minds. It took me 12 years into my marriage before I felt some sort of reconciliaton with myself over who I am and how I felt about my CDing. Once I accepted myself, it was a hard but honest conversation that took me out of the closet. She did wonder if I had other secrets, but I actually thought about it and said "none that I can think of?" And she is a smart girl, she understands that telling someone you like to dress like a woman is not easy, and she appreciated being told but SHE understood that it was not an easy thing for me to do! She fundamentallly understood why I kept the secret. If you really reflect on this issue, most women can understand this idea. If they put it back in your face and can't get over it and feel they have been led astray perhaps you need to open up to how hard this thing is to explain even to yourself? A bit of understanding on both sides of the relationship are required!

[Michelle (Oz)]

Might be helpful if you have a B&N acoount but I can't see it. I am VERY suspicious of anything from Zondervon being helpful to us.
In the context of where my wife and I are at and my hope to move beyond an extreme DADT to some modicum of acceptance the concept of this book looked helpful. For $A9.49 and free shipping I reckon it was worth the investment. Should know in a few days.

Even if she sees the book and it provokes a discussion it would be well and truly worth buying.


What's wrong with suggesting that CDers tell their wives/girlfriends early on if their relationships are only starting? A lot of people read these threads and if we can save one marriage from going bust because the wife did not know in the beginning, then that's a good thing.


Reine, your point is well-taken. But it presumes that disclosure won't ruin a relationship, too, and that's where I part company with this line of logic.
My wife said to me quite categorically that she would NOT have formed a relationship if she knew that my CDing would return (after almost 4 years). But the thing is that we have a beautiful loving relationship. A forever love together.

I didn't have a crystal ball to know how much CDing was part of me but let's say I did or my CDing never stopped. The cost of disclosure at the start would be two 90% compatible people would never have found true love.

Then there are the tragic marriage failures from the revelation or at the very least the trauma and heartache. These are very real experiences. The flip side to "saving one marriage" is breaking up others.

Thanks Isha for repeating my position - giving advice is so very easy but we don't have to deal with the consequences.

[Kate Jones]

My wife knew about me dressing before we even met due to a mutual friend.
I didn't know that she knew so I had to go through the whole coming out speech needlessly. Cow!
There's no way I could have a serious relationship without telling my partner.
Life is good I wear what I want when I want.
Its not unknown for her to steal my clothes including my favourite new shoes!
Ps now I think about it she wore my white satin ballet flats when we got married.

[MatildaJ.]

When I met my wife I thought...My crossdressing is a highly personal weird thing that I do on occasion and doesn't bear mentioning.

Exactly. Suppose a wife picks her nose every morning and secretly eats the boogers. It's gross, but it's not harming anyone, and I can see why she might want to keep that secret. Or suppose she exchanges letters once a year with an ex-boyfriend, but they never meet up. Or suppose she fantasizes about her dad while she's in bed with her husband. It's fine with me if she wants to keep that fantasy a secret.


as we began building a life together...[I felt I should] share this "weird habit that I originally thought didn't bear mentioning!"

Indeed. Once you have the desire to share the secret and to feel accepted by your partner, or you want your partner to participate, or you want your partner to give you more time for your secret hobby, then you have to find a good way to tell them. But as long as it's a very minor part of your life, I don't feel it's a moral imperative to reveal everything.


If this is something you do once or twice every six months? One where you're spending less than most people spend on coffee over the course of the year? No, I don't agree that you "must" disclose.

That makes sense to me.

[ReineD]

Jacqueline, if someone puts on panties and a skirt once every three months when the wife is gone, I don't know that I'd call that habitual CDing. I think the need to tell is when the CDing is so frequent that it has become a significant part of a CDer's life.

But maybe we can compare this to points of law. It's difficult to describe and come to a definitive position in a gray zone since motives are so varied ... it's much easier to paint a picture with words when it's black and white: tell or not tell, no matter the degree.

I do believe there are gray zones.

OK ... let's compare this to masturbation. What spouse necessarily tells their partner every single time they do this? I'm guessing few. But, if it becomes frequent to the point where it is on a spouse's mind a lot of the time and they have to purposely and habitually manipulate circumstances so they can masturbate according to their needs, then it's something that is an issue between them. Not the masturbation, but the frequent hiding which does entail a degree of lying or non-disclosure.

[Veronica27]

I may be wrong, but most of the arguing that has been taking place here is not what the original post was referring to. The question of whether to tell or not to tell has no single answer as every situation is different. What I gathered from the topic was that it was a form of a plea to everyone to stop taking a holier than thou attitude toward those types of topics that do not necessarily have a definitive answer. We make a point of telling everyone to treat each other respectfully, and for the most part that happens. However, every once in a while a controversial subject arises, and while attacks are not made directly against other posters, an indirect attack often does take place. This thread has provided an example of that by the insistence by some that not telling is a lie. By association, that is the same as calling the person a liar. I know that the opening post used the word liar, but it came across to me as a caustic means of highlighting the plea that I refer to above.

When I first read the post, and some of the early replies, I noticed that most of those replies were somewhat understanding of the mentality of uncertainty and shame that leads to continued non disclosure. However, they did not address the plea. In my first response, I talked a bit about secrecy and its impact on our lives and how there is no one answer to such questions that will fit every situation. I closed with a reference to what I saw as the point of the thread by using Isha's own reference saying we should not wag our fingers at anyone for their decisions.

Subsequent posts continued to be mostly understanding of the to tell or not to tell dilemma, but by the middle of the second page were beginning to take on a bit more of a tone that it is always better to tell. Fair enough, but they were still not addressing the primary point about the dangers inherent in the insistence on the "this is the right way" approach. I wrote my second reply, pointing out that because of my age, I grew up in a totally different socio-economic environment than we live in today, or even thirty or forty years ago. It's very easy to use hind sight and say that I should have done this differently or that differently. But hind sight tends to overlook all the unique circumstances we were dealing with back then. Should anyone be considered "bad" for the decisions made on such controversial subjects? Because the fact that modern thinking tends to say that such and such is the right approach to a specific topic mean that the old way of thinking was wrong? Sometimes its best and sometimes its not. Are we heading toward eutopia or oblivion? You will get opinions both ways, because that is what it is all about; opinions.

In response to my second post, Lorileah wrote


"Most are doing it (i.e. CDing) on the sly...who sneaks around doing things? People who are doing something wrong, right." Parenthesis were mine for context.

This use of words such as sly, sneak and wrong, left no doubt as to the intent to portray non disclosure as bad or evil, and elevate the unmentioned disclosure to something more akin to saintliness.

Her next line was:


... Quick aside here, it isn't you must tell PEOPLE...it is you must tell the one you promised to be honest with forever and ever, ok back to the point

In my post "you must tell" was in quotation marks, making it an adjectival phrase describing people who feel they must tell, not that you must tell people. That changes the whole context of what I wrote.

Most of her reply was about TG rights which is not the topic so I will not address them. She concluded by saying:


Yes it is hard to discard misplaced feelings, unteach wrong feelings, relearn something (and admit, this is all learned response.) But we have in the last 80 years done just that. We know that things we were taught are incorrect.

I apologize to Lorileah for highlighting her post, but did so because I felt that it represented what the opening post was attempting to make its plea about. In an ideal world it would be wonderful if we could disclose all to everyone, especially those closest to us. And if we could also come and go as we please without any fear of losing friendships, jobs, respect, loss of limbs or life, our family or anything else because of our crossdressing. But we do not live in a perfect world. Discretion is often the better part of valour. Many of us are able to suppress our personal desires for the greater good of family, or at least develop our own opportunities for discrete occasional indulgences. By all means tell us your story, how you were able to overcome your personal obstacles, what reactions you received from those you loved, what you are doing to maintain your own personal space and peace of mind. Just don't lecture us and write sermons about how we are going to hell for not seeing things your way.

Veronica

[Tina_gm]

My point exactly. Most don't get it and most can't see the others pov it is either "my way or the highway" approach. Every person has the right to make their own decisions "right or wrong" and nobody has the right to tell them otherwise. Provide advice, provide support and so forth but don't judge. That's all I am asking.

IshaIsha, I think most do get it more than you think. We communicate our thoughts on any matter, but some may not agree with yours or someone elses who agrees with you. They are merely thoughts and opinions. My opinion on this manner is formed by personal experience with my wife, the vast majority of GG's who are SO's and are members here, and of the struggles people have on here when they come out to their wives or GF's after a commitment was formed.

I have actually told my wife many of the "reasons" why I didn't tell her in the beginning. Guess what, it doesn't make the pain she has any less. Yes, she can understand why. She can perhaps feel some sort of relief that I had no master plan to throw her such a wicked curve 3 and a half years into the relationship, 6 months into marriage. But she STILL has to change gears and traverse a path in life she was not expecting or prepared to do. If I had told her, then she would never have had to have done that, and would have been prepared for this different route in life, a path most do not take.

Your title of your thread basically is set up to rationalize what most of us know is wrong. Wrong because lying and or any other way of deceiving our committed partners is simply wrong, regardless of what it is we lie or deceive about. CDing does not get a special pass in my opinion.

[ReineD]

What I gathered from the topic was that it was a form of a plea to everyone to stop taking a holier than thou attitude toward those types of topics that do not necessarily have a definitive answer.

Well, I suppose the holier than thou attitude is in the eye of the beholder. I honestly do not read any judgments into the "you should tell" arguments against those who haven't told.

Isha began this thread shortly after an unfortunate CDer posted the story of her wife having found out by seeing an undeleted picture on the computer. The wife went ballistic and the CDer didn't know if the marriage would survive. Although telling early on or even just telling as opposed to having the wife find out on her own is too late for that CDer, people still write to the masses when they advise against others finding themselves in the same position.

I'm sure that everyone's heart goes out to that CDer who finds herself in that unfortunate position, but what is everyone else supposed to do ... say "good for you and let's hope that other CDers will find themselves in your shoes"?

Just saying.

[Tina_gm]

You are right ReineD at least from me, and I too have not read into a hollier than thou attitude. I do not think someone who has not told early on and may still not have told to be a bad person based on it. I do think it is not the right thing to do though. That is just my opinion. I would like to hope that we can all share our opinions even when it is not an echo chamber of agreement and not automatically feel someone is attacking us or feeling attacked by doing so.

My opinion is based on support for people who are struggling with whether to tell a new GF, or to tell or not tell their wives or SO's. From the post you highlighted from Veronica27, I will disagree about her saying that at least in this topic not having a definitive answer. I believe when it comes to this topic it is among the most definitive. How we tell may not be definitive. But to tell or not, or what happens after not telling once a commitment has been formed. This is very definitive. And what happened to the CDer who was found out, that is a very definitive consequence when it happens. A very common reaction of Wives and SO's when they discover it rather than it being told to them. The common reactions when a wife or SO is told, especially years afterword. I was no different in that I did not tell and the reactions my wife has had are so typical of others who found out later after committing her life to me. So my advice, my opinion and my support is that not telling is wrong, it causes so much hurt and causes difficulties with relationships and marriages. To avoid this pitfall.

[Marcelle]

Wrong because lying and or any other way of deceiving our committed partners is simply wrong, regardless of what it is we lie or deceive about. CDing does not get a special pass in my opinion.

Not saying it deserves a special pass. I am saying that we know it was wrong but there is no need to brow beat people about it. They made their choice (right or wrong) and will have to live with the consequences. How they choose to work through with their wife is their business and not ours.

Isha

[Tina_gm]

It is not our business when not asked, but when people come on here to ask or to comment, then it does become our business, it was literally requested to be our business. I don't remember seeing anywhere (correct me if I am wrong) where someone has come on saying they were having trouble in their relationship due to their wife of SO finding out or they finally came clean, and then have other members saying HA! told ya so, ya got what ya deserved! I have not seen that happen.

[Dianne S]

But as long as it's a very minor part of your life, I don't feel it's a moral imperative to reveal everything.

I agree. And here's my test: If you discuss it on an Internet forum and have made more than 100 posts in the last 4 months, then it's not a minor-enough part of your life to sweep under the rug. :)

[MatildaJ.]

I agree. And here's my test: If you discuss it on an Internet forum and have made more than 100 posts in the last 4 months, then it's not a minor-enough part of your life to sweep under the rug. :)

That seems a reasonable test. I'd also say that if you're keeping CD photos on your computer, or doing a lot of searches on CD themes, then you're likely to get caught and should plan to disclose first. Similarly if you go out dressed or have friends who CD. Or if you have more than few items, so that it's hard to store them discreetly.

[Ceri Anne]

Well stated Isha. Many of us are yet to come out because we love our SO and know she will not accept. Some are working towards that. Some know the cost and risk is too great. Odds are some of us will get caught in the process and we know that doesn't help things. Yet for many of us, we do the best we can. We love and cherish our families. We know our deceit and are not proud of it. I am very envious of my friends who's spouses welcome them with open arms, but know too many in bitter divorce. The cost can be high. So can the benefits. Thanks for posting.

[Jacqueline Winona]

Jacqueline, if someone puts on panties and a skirt once every three months when the wife is gone, I don't know that I'd call that habitual CDing. I think the need to tell is when the CDing is so frequent that it has become a significant part of a CDer's life.

But maybe we can compare this to points of law. It's difficult to describe and come to a definitive position in a gray zone since motives are so varied ... it's much easier to paint a picture with words when it's black and white: tell or not tell, no matter the degree.

I do believe there are gray zones.

OK ... let's compare this to masturbation. What spouse necessarily tells their partner every single time they do this? I'm guessing few. But, if it becomes frequent to the point where it is on a spouse's mind a lot of the time and they have to purposely and habitually manipulate circumstances so they can masturbate according to their needs, then it's something that is an issue between them. Not the masturbation, but the frequent hiding which does entail a degree of lying or non-disclosure.

Reine, we agree for the most part, you're paragraph 1 is about the same as what I think. Yes, there are gray areas, and where you fit on the scale (from occasional to habitual CD) will lead to when it would be wise to disclose. And I've never seen you adopt any kind of holier than thou attitude, not your style, you're if anything one of the most open-minded, caring and accommodating posters around. I do agree with you also about gray areas, my example was purposefully an extreme example, where you fit between occasional wearer of women's clothes to full-time, habitual TGirl holds the most significance in my mind on what needs to be stated.
As far as spending time on the internet here? I don't necessarily agree, reading CD posts isn't any different than watching shows about other people's weddings in my mind, or any number of reality tv shows. But if the test is 100 over 4 months I'm pretty sure I still pass. :_
Now, you're last analogy made me think- there's another reason why a guy in a relationship shouldn't do that so much, and I trust you know what I mean and I think that is actually worse than the hiding/non-disclosure.
The middle aged cross dresser coming out (using that term to apply to anyone who has been in a committed relationship for more than 10 years and/or is over 35, not trying to suggest anyone is really middle aged) is just a tough situation to analogize to. Is it similar to a wife telling her husband I can't wait to have kids, love them, want to spoil them, then spends most of her time working rather than going to the kid's activities? Is the wife being deceitful if she doesn't tell the husband before the kids come that you're the one who is going to all their games, practices, you better find the time to get home because I don't want to modify my job to get there except for weekend games (please don't read too much into that one :))? We would probably all conclude the wife really didn't know what her priorities would be ahead of time, even if it were clear that her career was extremely important to her in my analogy. But if that's so, why are some (not all) so quick to declare a CD a liar for not telling his wife that he liked dressing before marriage, even if most of us know that the CD probably thought this would go away when he got married, like most of us do? I'm just extremely reluctant to condemn someone in that circumstance, and not confident at all that the best advice is to disclose, when the consequences of doing so could be devastating. These are case by case decisions that everyone has to make by themselves, hopefully armed with as much knowledge as you can find.

[Sonya]

Isha, I was thinking about replying to this thread for a while. I sense that the original aim of the thread got side tracked and it more or less became a discussion about telling or not telling early in relationship. I admire peoples courage who were able to tell before marriage about their CD desires, but I don’t think it is all about courage, I strongly believe that the ones who did tell early on a serious relationship can be divided into three categories:
1. They had the resources and information readily available about CD related issues
2. At the time they started to go in to the relationship, they already knew that CD will always be a part of them and they already accepted this side of them and they knew that they can never give it up.
3. They had a failed relationship because of CD and learned their lesson the hard way.
Actually if you consider all of the above, there is only one conclusion, the CD’s who told early on already ACCEPTED themselves at the time, this acceptance either came with knowledge, life experience or natural very high levels of self awareness

I wish I accepted this part of me long before, especially before I got seriously involved with someone but I didn’t due to many obvious reasons which have been already discussed in detail in this thread. Unfortunately I also lied (deceived, not disclosed or whatever you want to call it) and I wish I didn’t but like many others here my intensions were never bad, I never intentionally wanted to hurt anyone, I tried really hard to give up Cd’ing.

So I agree with Isha, please lets not judge each other, lets support and give advice to each other, lets try to help each other. I think the younger members are already better equipped to make better decisions when it comes to CD and serious relationship since they have so much more information. Thanks for reading.

Lots of love and respect to all of you....

[NicoleA]

I told my wife this week and she seems genuinely betrayed.

I'm not sure her reaction would have been much worse if I told her I was having an affair. Certainly for now, she has no interest in any kind of intimacy.

My gut feeling is that I haven't done irreparable damage to our relationship, but time will tell.

[TheMissus]

NicoleA, I suspect this will turn out as well as you handle it.

Sure, plenty of GGs don't like CD (myself included)and wouldn't chose to be with someone who does this. BUT we can learn to tolerate and in some cases even accept this side of a spouse. Even after years of not knowing - yes, we can.

But the marriages that tank quickly from my witness of other GGs are the ones where the H tells his SO because he has decided for whatever reason he needs validation or acceptance or whatever, so he tells his wife and THEN decides to dress every frickin' spare second he can find. He goes out, buys endless items and even thinks she might want to join in. He basically shoves CD down her throat and believe me, none of the GGs I know who've experienced this appreciated it, lol

Yep, these marriages can go south quickly. Not all will fall apart, as Isha is testament that some partners are okay with rapid change. I'd suggest though, that most are destroyed with this behavior.

So whatever you do, have a long think why you told her NOW, and if it's to dress more or involve her, I'd tread very carefully. Good luck.

[NicoleA]

At a basic level I told her because I didn't want to lie to her or keep secrets, but there is something to your comments. Until the past couple of weeks it had been over 15 years since I'd dressed at all and in some ways I do want to make up for lost time. Acceptance would be nice too, and that was hard to predict as my wife is quite open minded in some ways, but does also have a conservative streak.

Thanks for your advice on this, I will indeed tread carefully.

[pink.switch.love]

I think OP should change the title of the post.
"We" didn't lie
"We" didn't hide
That is if "I" am part of the "We"
That which I do consider myself to be
It a big sweeping generalization - a stereotype - an assumption

[AveryS]

Isha nailed it - at least in my situation. However, as a trans woman, it was even harder on my SO. In fact, she even stated clearly that if I just wanted to dress up from time to time, wear women's pjs or nighties, wear panties, etc, it would not have been so bad. But to tell her she married a woman and that my goal is to make that my permanent gender expression was not acceptable to her.

I broke the news to her last November after having a serious breakdown and deep dive into depression. She pressured me to spill the beans, and I did... and although she prepared herself for the worse (I was cheating on her, I was dying, I was gay), her mind just could not comprehend that I was trans. It was the worst thing I could ever have shared with her - it crushed her - and I was labelled everything from liar to fraud to cheat to scumbag to .. you name it. From her perspective, I lied to her for the 15 years we have been together.

The reality is - I didn't necessarily lie to her. I lied to myself. I told her what I believed to be true, by burying my feelings, denying my feminine side, writing it off as a weird fetish and counteracting it with macho crap, I made myself believe that it was nothing. So I didn't lie to her. I didn't share my struggle, but I didn't truly understand the impact of what I was feeling.

Fortunately, we are still together. She uses denial to get herself through. From her perspective, as long as I still play the role of husband and father, nothing has changed and we can go about life. The reality is, things ARE changing, just very slowly. Slow enough that the changes don't bother her. She even likes some of the changes, without actually knowing or acknowledging why they are happening.

We even had a big break a couple of days ago. I clumsily left a bra out after trying on some new clothes. I packed everything else away, but somehow forgot a critical piece of clothing - and she found it. She had brief words, cried a little, was angry a little. The next morning was fairly quiet around the house, but I tried to keep everything as normal as possible. By the next night, we were snuggling again, and she woke me up for some intimate times before the kids had a chance to ruin it...

Every relationship will handle the situation differently. In many cases we lie to ourselves, and in turn lie to our spouses without even knowing we aren't speaking the truth. And if we do lie to our spouses knowingly, it's with good intentions - to shield and protect them from something that they may not be able to handle.

[pink.switch.love]

And if we do lie to our spouses knowingly, it's with good intentions - to shield and protect them from something that they may not be able to handle.

Again - don't say "we" because it is not "we" it is you.

For me this has been a process of discovery and I have been honest the whole way through and my spouse is enthusiastically involved. You should just be totally honest with her - if she can't handle it then breakup - it is better for everybody that way. (Even the kids)

[MatildaJ.]

he tells his wife and THEN decides to dress every frickin' spare second he can find. He goes out, buys endless items and even thinks she might want to join in. He basically shoves CD down her throat and believe me, none of the GGs I know who've experienced this appreciated it, lol.

Agreed. It's possible to get past the secrecy (especially if she understands that the whole thing was just a vague impulse in your mind, or something that has emerged gradually over time, rather than a clear-cut identity you were hiding all along). But if the Big Reveal is followed by the Pink Fog, in which you act like a kid in a candy store and assume that this should be as delightful for her as it is for you, that doesn't lead anywhere good.


In some ways I do want to make up for lost time. Acceptance would be nice too.

"Acceptance" is a tricky word. If your wife had a kink for acting like a "little girl" (some women do), and used clear words to tell you so, you might very well "accept" that as true. You might "accept" it as part of her, and not plan to walk away from the marriage. That doesn't mean you'd necessarily enjoy spending time with her in that baby girl persona.

The bottom line is -- do what you need to do, but if you value your relationship, then try to maintain a regular pattern of doing the fun activities together that the two of you have always enjoyed, with you in guy mode. If the CDing is an additional fun activity, which you're inviting her to share with you if she likes, that's very different from it taking the place of all your former fun activities and leaving her with nothing except her memories of shared good times.

[Tina_gm]

I will try my hardest to offer my opinions on why I feel it is of utmost importance that regardless of circumstance, telling early on in a relationship is the best way to go. I mean no disrespect to anyone, or am I judging anyone.

My story is like so many others on here in that I too did not tell early on. it was 3 and a half years into the relationship, 6 months after marriage. I already knew my now wife, we had been friends for many years. Although we had lost touch in recent years. She was married, I was married.... fast fwd to 2009, I had been divorced for 5 years and she was in the process of one. We decided to date. Right from the beginning it was awesome. And I enjoyed this "normal" dating. Hey, I like being a guy too. So my CD desires went to the back burner. They were still there, as they always have been, but definitely on the back burner. Why tell her? At the time, I did not see forever after, I was just enjoying such a wonderful time, something that I had not had since my early 20's and I was now in my mid 40's.

As time went on, we began to fall in love. We began forming commitments to each other. We began to see a forever after future. I had not told her of my desires. I would take it to my grave and continue to not act on them which I had more or less done for my entire life anyway. But they were slowly growing over time. Stronger than ever. In the process of forming our relationship, we bared our souls to each other..... except for one thing, which I held back.

The desires grew stronger, I found myself going into her side of the closet, into drawers more and more frequently. I hated the feeling of sneaking around like I was doing. I was accepting myself more and more that I actually was an ok person, and the only thing not ok about what I was doing was sneaking the dressing that I did. It wasn't hardly anything, and maybe a half dozen times. I knew that I either had to tell her about this part of myself, or continue to risk being caught, and continuing to sneak this from her. I knew if caught, that there was a very good chance the marriage would end. I knew there was a decent chance that if I told her the marriage may end. But I could not bare the sneaking and the deceit, and yes, I lied in certain ways. It was not a straight out "do you CD?" and I said no... but there were little lies that covered up what I was doing.

All along, I withheld this part of me. She shared all and I did not. Now it came time to tell. The news shocked her, as it does for so many. And it has hurt her badly. It has angered her that I did not share all as she did with me. Trust had been broken. And of course, she had to begin to attempt accepting and dealing with something that is very difficult for her to do. Together we have come a long way, but it has been a terribly difficult time getting there, and there are still many difficult days because of me telling her long after we began seeing each other and forming a lifetime commitment. She still struggles with anger, with feelings of betrayal, with the lost trust. As well as having to shift gears and accept a different path than what she thought she was on. A deceit on my part that never told her all about me. It is my biggest regret, not doing so, and causing the hurt, the betrayal, the anger and the lost trust. It is not the CDing itself that has caused this, it was me, not telling her about it. And I have caused the woman I love pain. That is the last thing I ever want to do is hurt her. Yet I have.

[ReineD]

I will try my hardest to offer my opinions on why I feel it is of utmost importance that regardless of circumstance, telling early on in a relationship is the best way to go. I mean no disrespect to anyone, or am I judging anyone.

I agree with you, but unfortunately the people who have not told early on feel judged by such statements. I think that with the resources we have TODAY, any young CDer approaching a relationship would be foolish to not tell. But, this does not help the people who did not have the same advantages 20, 30, or 40 years ago.

So I think it is important to mention this as well.


... and also, that most wives (in my opinion) will fare much better if their husbands tell them even years into the marriage, than if the wives find out by mistake through some sort of negligence on the husband's part.

So it's a question of weighing the risks. The more a person CDs, the harder it is to keep it all in a box in the garage or the attic that comes out once every three months, and the more a wife will notice that something is "amiss" even if she doesn't know what it is. The erosion of marital trust will begin to occur once this stage of "hiding something but I don't know what" is reached.

[Tina_gm]

While we could easily say that we are all in the same boat together in regards to CDing and we should all stick together (we should as much as possible) I like to think of it as we are all in our own boats, sailing the sea of transgender. We all have our own destinations, and we must navigate through often times stormy conditions to get to where we want to be. To calm waters, to our own place of paradise.

Like the Titanic, which chose to sail north to get to its destination quicker, we too must choose the path. And what seems to be the path of least resistance, or the quickest route, is strewn with icebergs. Sail through them long enough and eventually one way or another, you will hit one. When you do, it will cause a breach, and cold icy water will pour in. Now we have to stop, and act diligently to pump out the water and repair the breach. It takes a lot of time and energy. And in the process, sailing to our destination gets for the most part put on hold, or definitely ends up going at a far slower pace as we spend a great deal of our time dealing with the water rushing in and repairing the damage caused. Sometimes, like the Titanic, the damage becomes to great, and the relationship may sink.

So, my thoughts here are not those who do not tell are bad people, as I am not a bad person. They, as I did, have made or are making the wrong choice. It is easy to understand why we made or continue to make this choice. My previous post above explains why I too made that choice. But it ends up being the harder more damaging choice in the end.

[Veronica27]

In many ways, my personal situation has enabled me to have an understanding of both sides of this debate, and that is why I feel strongly about not condemning anyone for the decisions they make. I have been married twice, for a total married life of over 50 years. My first marriage did not end in divorce, but in the untimely death of my wife to cancer. I have been extremely blessed to have been married to two wonderful, caring and understanding women, and I could not bear the thought of hurting them in any way.

I began crossdressing in my early teen years, by sneaking items belonging to my older sister, and when she left home, from my mother when no one else was home. I did not come any where near to dressing up completely, but concentrated on specific items that aroused my curiosity and interest like bras, garter belts, girdles, slips, hosiery and jewelry. As this was a long time ago, there was no information available, and the only thing anyone knew about this practice was that it was horribly wrong. When I was nearing my twenties, because of shame and guilt, I decided that I should stop doing this, and I managed to do so for about 6 or 7 years. During this time, I met my first wife, fell in love and was married. Of course, because of being so ashamed of my past behaviour, I saw no point in telling her and making her wonder what sort of a pervert I was. I saw no point in disappointing or hurting her and was so in love, I did not want to jeopardize our happiness. Then one day when I was under tremendous stress of studying for my final exams, and my wife was at work, I gave in to the lure of wearing one of her bras. It had been left on top of a pile of clothes near my desk, and I wore it as a means of relaxing myself in order to help me concentrate on my studies. I still had it on when she returned home, as I wanted her to know what I had done and how I had found it to be rather comforting. She was surprised but not upset. I saw no point in mentioning anything from my past, as it would have painted a picture of something much different than what had just taken place. At my suggestion, she helped me purchase an inexpensive but slightly larger bra that I could wear to get me through the grueling and stressful task of writing those final exams. After that, I returned to a life of abstention from crossdressing except for a few times when I was under stress and alone. I only had a couple of items that spent most of the time in the bottom of a dresser drawer. When my wife was diagnosed with cancer, I made a vow to myself that I was not going to crossdress any more and threw out the few items that I had.

After her passing I was so grief stricken and lonely, that I caved in and did a little crossdressing during the long and lonely nights, wearing some of my wife's nightgowns and lingerie for a few months. Then one day, I said enough, and tossed everything out. I wasn't going to succumb to self pity. I eventually remarried, and did not say anything to my second wife, because I was no longer crossdressing and for the same reasons as before, did not want to hurt her or our chances of happiness by disclosing such dark secrets about my past. Right or wrong, can be debated until the cows come home, but is destroying a wonderful relationship ever the right thing to do?

Then one day, about 5 years into our marriage, my wife asked me if I had ever tried on a bra. I said yes, without really having the time to think about how I should respond. I still don't know what prompted the question, but it led to some more questions and some honest answers from me. A few days later, she surprised me with a few gifts, including a dress, slip, bra, panties and pantyhose. She said that I should wear them around the house whenever I felt the need, but cautioned me to not let the children (from my first marriage) see me. I was very hesitant to try those gifts on at first because of the vow that I had made to myself and also because I had never worn a dress before or taken my dressing to that extent. The rest is history, and we have been married for close to 30 years. She is not overly active in my crossdressing, but has attended some events with me in recent years. We do not discuss the subject very often, but I can wear anything I want around the house, and in her presence. I rarely dress when she is not around.

Both of my wives have known. The first one did not know about my past, just my current limited activities, but it was me who disclosed it when it returned to a semi active thing. My second wife, however knows pretty much the whole story, but it was not because I brought up the subject. It was not exactly getting caught, but was somewhat unique. So I have both told and in a sense been unexpectedly confronted. I have not told going in to a relationship, but just when the situation arose. I consider myself to be very fortunate that everything has worked out well, but I can understand the trepidation about broaching such a subject and the uncertainty of whether you would be ruining a good life for everyone. I know the benefits of disclosure without having had to suffer the difficulties. I also understand the angst of knowing you have not been totally open about yourself, and making extreme sacrifices in order to not hurt those you love the most. I would never urge anyone to tell or consider them to be a bad person if they don't, nor would I say that disclosure is right or wrong. Every situation is different.

Veronica

[NicoleA]

Agreed. It's possible to get past the secrecy (especially if she understands that the whole thing was just a vague impulse in your mind, or something that has emerged gradually over time, rather than a clear-cut identity you were hiding all along). But if the Big Reveal is followed by the Pink Fog, in which you act like a kid in a candy store and assume that this should be as delightful for her as it is for you, that doesn't lead anywhere good.

I have definitely found myself influenced by the Pink Fog in the past few days, but after years of repression I think that was somewhat inevitable. However I feel as if things are starting to balance out again, which I think can only be good for my relationship.

[TheMissus]

I have definitely found myself influenced by the Pink Fog in the past few days, but after years of repression I think that was somewhat inevitable. However I feel as if things are starting to balance out again, which I think can only be good for my relationship.

I'm glad things are finding balance for you. Balance will help for sure, but remember, the repression you speak of was not something your wife was aware of. It was entirely your choice. She has spent years thinking one thing about you and now must think another. I'd bet her compassion for your 'years of repression' will be zero at this point.

Find a way quickly out of that Pink Fog and get back to her 'normal' while she processes this. If your marriage survives this, THEN you can worry about your return to CD. Otherwise you may be doing this without her and I'm certain, from how you write here, that this is not what you want.

I really hope you can both work this out. M x

[Marcelle]

I agree with you, but unfortunately the people who have not told early on feel judged by such statements. I think that with the resources we have TODAY, any young CDer approaching a relationship would be foolish to not tell. But, this does not help the people who did not have the same advantages 20, 30, or 40 years ago.

So I think it is important to mention this as well ... and also, that most wives (in my opinion) will fare much better if their husbands tell them even years into the marriage, than if the wives find out by mistake.

Hi Reine,

Well put. Each person is different and the circumstances of each person is different. When I first discovered this side of me I was very young (pre-teen) and that was confusing . . . talking to my parents . . . not likely. My dad found me playing dolls with my sister once and promptly took me out to buy a pellet gun and taught me shoot birds. When I was older and had my first experience, even with the Canadian military at that time, it was a one way ticket to a dishonourable release. No internet, no forums, no support groups, no accepting society just me and my closet. When I met my wife, I thought surely this will cure me (still thought I was sick and perverted). Gave it up for some time but then the pressures of everyday life and crept in (graduate work, occupation change, war) made me go to the only place I felt safe and insulated . . . my closet as it is all I knew. If I was discovering this as a young person today, it might have gone different . . . don't know.

Regarding the pink fog, I can't stress the importance proper therapy has played in my ability to deal with this rush to present. I know some people will "poo poo" therapy and I agree if you truly understand what is going on, you may not need it. In my case not so much as I have been closeted for so long, I need someone to make sense of how this all fits with me. Advice and lessons learned from others on this forum is great and supportive, but it is just that, advice based on one person's experience. Point in case, some people say "slow down take it easy" others "advocate explore and go with the flow". It really depends on the person.

A therapist is objective and will allow you to become introspective and view your decision making process from your point of view not others. This will allow you make informed decisions and if you are in a relationship with a knowing SO, share them and make decisions with input from both parties. My therapist always stresses while this is about my personal journey and discovery, there is another party involved who needs to be considered. Trust has to be rebuilt but also mutual respect and compromise have to figure in if the relationship is going to survive first contact. My wife attends an occasional session with me to work through specific issues or just to sit and share in a controlled environment.

Hugs

Isha

[Katie Russell]

I think the difficulty is that when you first meet your SO you don't know much about them. You don't know how they'd react to you telling them that you CD. Neither of you has expended much energy in the relationship so if it all goes wrong you can go your separate ways accept they now know something about you that you have kept hidden for many years. What if the relationship ends on a sour note - they could tell your friends, family, work colleagues even in these modern time it could be up on the net. This all goes through your mind so the safest option always seems not telling. It's a defence mechanism.

You then move on to the next stage and the relationship develops. You may kid yourself that things will change and the urge to dress will go away. And maybe for a time it does. You are starting to build something special and at that point the fear of losing it all becomes too great. So you decide not to say anything. You can manage the CD - it doesn't do anyone any harm. So life goes on and the longer the relationship the harder it becomes to tell. There are children involved and you have a whole other life with mortgages, work, socialising. Can you risk losing all this?

There doesn't seem a best time to tell. You might even take it o the grave so if your SO never finds out what harm has it done.

People are lied to for all sorts of reason. We grow up lying to our children - Father Christmas and the tooth fairy. When they find out do they hate us?

I wasn't upfront initially to protect me and later to protect my family. It wasn't trying to be deceitful or devious it just seemed the right thing to do. I think that everyone is unique and we all have different perspectives on life. I wouldn't advise anyone to tell or keep it a secret as I think the only person who truly know the right thing to do is you. I don't mind giving advice about clothes, wigs etc but life changing decision are too difficult when you don't even know somebody circumstances.

Katie

[melanie206]

I can't pass judgement on those already in relationships but I think those who are between relationships and who know that their dressing isn't going away should do themselves a huge favor and do whatever they must ( counseling etc. ) to be ready to disclose this to anyone they might get serious about. I see no other way.

[Tina_gm]

Again, I just want to add that it is not necessarily judging someone else as a person, but to express an opinion that what they may be doing or choosing is not necessarily the best path or choice to make. But there is often a common theme, and one I encountered as well. After going too long without telling, and forming a wonderful relationship, possibly marriage and then kids come along, the usual family stuff, then to tell, or how to tell without ruining it all. So we sort of trap ourselves. And we either have to choose not to dress, thereby depriving ourselves of a basic part of our being. Or limit ourselves to a great degree, which is basically the same, plus we add a layer of stress from always worrying about getting caught, or having to spend so much effort on not getting caught.

All that negative energy and effort. All of it can be avoided. I say this not to judge or put down those who made the choice. I am saying to those who are still making that choice that it is still (as ReinieD stated) better to tell then be discovered. And to tell as soon as possible. The longer it goes, the harder it gets and the harder it will be on them. For those just starting a relationship or are thinking about what happens if you tell, my advice and support to you is to do so early on.

And for those who are facing the predictable difficulty or know you will when you do tell, I will support you still, by helping in whatever way I can and give whatever advice or suggestions on how to traverse through the early stages after telling.