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LeaP
10-09-2013, 10:11 AM
People often refer to changes from hormones becoming more obvious over time, often to the point of becoming impossible for others to overlook. As I seem to be blooming into some of those, I thought I would describe what's happening from a shape and clothing standpoint to give some specific substance to the comment.

In the past, I caught criticism, and sometimes good-natured ridicule, from my wife and daughter on the fit of women's jeans. They did not fit quite right in the hips or in the rear. The rise looked wrong. The cut looked wrong. They sagged and bagged where should not, and stretched and pinched where they should not. This was despite the fact that I am wider in the hips than most males. I've compensated for this throughout my life by having to wear a size or two up, often tailoring in the waist. You would think women's jeans would have looked and fit fine, but they did not. Thy result was usually a combination of muffin top, sausage stuffing and sagging, all in one gloriously unattractive package. (What was I thinking? ... that's another topic ...)

So it was a bit of a surprise when I noticed the shift to women's jeans fitting better than men's. The criticism of the fit had actually stopped a couple of months ago, though that didn't occur to me until I noticed the change in fit myself. The corollary, however, is that men's pants look increasingly awkward. They are starting to yield the sort of look that you see some butch lesbians projecting. That is, when they wear men's pants, their lower bodies look off-shaped and disproportionate.

As I have lost weight and as the distribution of fat and my body has shifted, I have a more defined and higher waistline. I have never had much of a middle anyway, even when quite heavy, but the loss of what I did have has effectively resulted in the narrowest part of my waist now being above my navel instead of just above the hips. The result is the waistband of men's pants starting to border on untailorable and falling in the wrong place besides.

The fat shift has been to my thighs and hips. The result is an effective change in my inseam. I do not have long legs. My inseam has been 30 inches for as long as I can remember. Yet that is now too short. The change in my upper legs now pulls men's pants in such a way that they are pulled up and outward.

Put it together and you get something that really doesn't look very good. Put it into women's pants and two things happen: the fit is quite good (still don't have enough gear in the rear, though ...) and the impact is quite feminine. It's noticeable either way. I'm not saying that it cannot be disguised, but if you want to wear properly fitted clothing, it starts to become unavoidable at some point.

There is also a shift in the fit of men's shirts. Polos and tees were the first and most obvious. At this point, even when quite large and loose, breast growth unconstrained by something like a compression undergarment results in a lot of stares. But it turns out that looser polos and tees, because of the change in my shape – particularly loss of upper body bulk – now look incredibly sloppy. They also hang wrong, even with a compression undergarment. They drape forward and outward. The result is something akin to to a maternity top look. A better fitted top simply results in breasts being more noticeable.

Both because of cut and because they typically use more structured fabric, dress shirts have been less of an issue for drabwear at work. I wore a Brooks Brothers traditional fit for decades. This is quite loose, but looks proper on a reasonably beefy man's body. As I lost more and more weight and upper body bulk, these began to look comically too large. I finally wound up in a slim fit, which worked well … until a couple of months ago.

The changes are still on the subtle side but are becoming increasingly apparent. As you would expect, the width of the shoulders is still fine. The skeletal structure, after all, does not change. But there is now too much fabric in the upper body of the shirt even with a slim fit cut. Despite that, the cut across the chest is no longer right. I'm developing a female-typical pull across the chest that is starting to pull at the buttons. The lower body of the shirt is simply too large. At this point all of this does not result in something overtly feminine. Rather, it takes an expensive dress shirt from looking right to looking like complete crap. The properly fitted solution would be a woman's cut with darted relief for the breast, tailored and shaped lower shirt body, and a slightly wider shoulder cut. That, however, would be unmistakable. Either way, the changes are unavoidable and, with time, will be regarded more female than male-typical. I suppose my resulting look in drab for most is simply an unattractive body at worst, perhaps a soft and somewhat femmy body at best.

Changes to-date:

Pants – from men's 42 to men's 34. Women's 18 to misses' 12. Trending toward 32 and 10, respectively.

Inseam – 30 to 31 (effective, anyway)

Hips – 44 to 41.

Shift in narrowest point of waist – upwards approximately 2.5 inches.

Neck – 18 to 15.

Chest – 46 to 38.

Cup – none to B. Eventually ... no clue, but I doubt much more.

Weight – 280 at largest to 175. Would like to hit 160 but seem to be stuck.

Delts, traps, and triceps are MUCH reduced. Very little lat spread any longer. Interestingly, I've retained much of my bicep and forearm size (not that the latter was much anyway). Neck less muscular and has lost much of slope to shoulders. Calves are more defined, but thighs are mushier, if anything.

Your mileage will definitely vary, certainly in the details. But make no mistake, changes absolutely become noticeable for most.

I would be interested in reading what others have experienced by way of unavoidably noticeable change. One intent is, again, to be specific about what this means. Another is to dissuade those who seek hormones yet avoid change. A scenario I can't speak to, for example, is change without significant weight loss (regardless of weight). Maybe someone can chime in from that perspective.

Jorja
10-09-2013, 10:24 AM
Don't you love it when a plan starts to show results? Be careful now, the next thing you know you will be a gorgeous woman.

SabrinaWTG
10-09-2013, 10:41 AM
Thank you for a wonderful account of your changes.
How long have you been on HRT?

Marleena
10-09-2013, 10:46 AM
Darn you Lea! You had me run for the scale expecting a weight gain due to my appetite increase.:D I"m happy to report no weight gain but I would sure love to lose about 15 lbs.

Being an older chick I didn't/don't expect much change. I was way more concerned with curing or at least controlling the GD. So anything else is a bonus.

I started out with moobs but now a definite "B". When wearing a sports bra and a T-shirt the shirt hangs on me and it's so obvious. I do have the dreaded "muffin top". I've added a little bit of natural padding to the hips but started out with basically no hips, it's only a small change. Men's jeans pull in the front area which is weird because it never happened before. I never had baggy ass when in jeans and have added a little bit there. So no real big changes here.

It looks like I take the same women's sizes as you except my inseam is 32". I'm 5'9". Oh and no I won't show boob pictures to anybody!:heehee:

I Am Paula
10-09-2013, 11:01 AM
Congrats!
Now you must rid yourself of that guy's clothing you keep mentioning. lol

Just last week I was putting on a pair of jeans, and I added a little padding in the hips. I looked in the mirror, and my hips were too big. I pulled down my pants, and, lo and behold, that manly hollow in the sides of my butt cheeks had filled in. Without the padding, but still with some booty pads, my jeans fit perfectly. Hooray. The drugs work in mysterious ways.
This was the first obvious results of hormones, and I'm ecstatic! Now if only the boobs would start responding to my impassioned pleas.

Marleena
10-09-2013, 11:06 AM
Now if only it would fix my man face and get rid of my adam's apple! My endo does add prometrium to his script as he thinks it promotes breast growth. Of course progesterones are still debated for there usefullness or effect.

LeaP
10-09-2013, 12:03 PM
Sabrina, I've been on hormones 14 months.

Marleena, the pull across the front of the pants is something I never would have noticed ... because it's always been there for me! Oddly enough, it's now gone in women's pants.

Alas, no change whatsoever in the booty department.

Jorga, I want to address your comment last as it hints at deeper things than meets the eye.

First, the easy part. Calling my progress results from a plan is, well, generous. LOL! I held my breath and jumped.

The gorgeous woman comment is more difficult. Like so many of us, I'm habituated to rejecting compliments or even suggestions such as yours. Kathryn called me on this a while ago. It's defensive and comes from a lifetime of hiding and thinking less of myself. It's VERY hard not to go on automatic self-deprecation, and it's taking an effort right now to beat down the urge to reject your comment as even a remote possibility. The truth is that it IS possible to achieve very good results, and I've seen many such. Moreover, I think it is important to transition to start seeing and accepting one's appearance in a positive way. Why? Because when I see those who do not, they continue to project male body language.

I think this is a functional part of the confidence that so many say is necessary. I'm finding that confidence does not come from trying to artificially projecting it. In my case, at least, it has started arising naturally from feeling better about myself, even, dare I say it, from starting to like myself. Had Kathryn called me on self-deprecation even a few months ago, it would have fallen on deaf ears. Suddenly, it makes sense. I'm still not prepared to accept the possibility of "gorgeous," but I will go to a certain point of fabulousness!

melissaK
10-09-2013, 12:46 PM
I don't have all those stats, but my changes generally track yours.

In my youth I had well muscled thighs and small waist - and pleated slacks were essential to get them to drape right - or girl's jeans where increased hip size helps with thigh room. Now with age my thighs are less muscled, waist a big wider, but HT fat distribution has kept thighs big and my pants solution remains pleated or girl's cut. BUT my butt is not really big enough for women's jeans, so shopping for fit remains a tedious chore.

Shirts, hiding breasts has become a challenge. In regular Men's wear anything most always drapes wrong. In dress shirts an athletic fit still works if I use a sports bra for some compression. Athletic fit shirts give big chest, small waist. Since that cut isn't widely available I have more and more women's blouses. And I layer. An unbuttoned top shirt worn jacket style goes far.

But on weekends, when I can be more out, I am. Tight t's under a half buttoned blouse and it's edgy and I'm happy.

Really I am a rebel at heart. I'd rather dress like I play guitar in a rock band or
am an artist, and I can get away with a lot that otherwise is odd. Really it's part of why Gender Outlaw work for me. If in my heart I was a cuff link Italian suit country club attorney, I don't know what I'd do.

Anyway. The body changes do present need for wardrobe changes, and the mental changes with liking myself when I am out, ad to it. I know I now have "wardrobe" melt downs when I can't get the look right. My wife is wonderful and sympathetic, and I get hugs, and she sometimes laughs and quips that I'm acting like a 16 year old girl.

And I wouldn't have it any other way. :-)

Angela Campbell
10-09-2013, 02:00 PM
I have been on the juice for 4 months and I am seeing the same things you mentioned. I have one pair of mens jeans I wear at work with the mens polo shirt that is our uniform. It looks awful. I also have womens jeans I usually wear that really make me look thinner and more like they fit. I wear a very tight tank under the polo and for a while it did ok but it is beginning to show anyway. No comments yet but sometimes I do get looks. I have solid B cups now and still sore all the time so I hope that means they are growing. I always had moobs mostly from being overweight, but now they have a definite shape to them that is obviously female. (ok I like)

I have not been trying to lose weight for months now. In fact I overeat a week or so and then get careful for a week or so. I have lost a few lbs in the last 4 months according to the Dr. My waist is getting higher and my arms are looking thinner and softer. I get many comments on my face, that are usually remarks of lost weight. There are other things that I just cannot pinpoint but when looking at myself it just looks more feminine and I am not sure what exactly it is but it is getting more obvious. It seems that at only 4 months it shouldn't be obvious but it is. I guess I am a lucky one who responds very well.

I am concerned at passing as a male and I am having talks with my HR about that this week. My therapist also tells me I am going too slow and may want to speed up going full time at work. He laughed because he is usually trying to slow his clients down. He thinks I am ready. I may do so after the first of the year, now instead of next spring. I dunno.

Oh yes....upper body strength....heck all strength is going away, and I notice it everyday. And I have no one to open jars for me!

Jorja
10-09-2013, 02:27 PM
Lea, you are no different than most of us here. While we may read every little thing we can about hormones, transexuality, and how to deal with it all, we have no idea of what our own personal results will be. With blind faith and a deep breath we pop that little pill, put on that patch, or inject ourselves. For the larger majority of us, eventually, a rather nice looking facsimile of a girl slowly appears. Some of us can live with our looks and others decide they need to go further and have FFS. I think it depends on just how critical our own eye is. However, being gorgeous is more than looks. Way more. It comes from deep inside of you.

I do have to agree with Kathryn, you do self-deprecate in almost every post I have read from you about yourself. This is the way you handle your situation. I get it. However, learning to be a little less critical of yourself will help your self-esteem thus boosting your confidence level.

LeaP
10-09-2013, 02:42 PM
Oh, and here are some additional WAYS that these things manifest.

. Carrying a backpack
. Seatbelts
. Carrying a bag with strap cross-body (OMG!)
. Team outings ... Y'all aren't going to be too thrilled with bowling night and company tees if you aren't out ...
. Simply walking by people repetitively in profile, as I do past a line of offices on the way to the restroom
. Sitting with legs crossed - emphasizes all that lovely new padding ...
. Tucked vs loose shirts
. Button gap peeks ... learn from your female friends and family on this one!
. Nipples ... OMG again!
. Good posture accentuates ... Everything
. Bounce

While I no longer care outside of work, I need to remain in the closet and discreet at work.

Kathryn Martin
10-09-2013, 03:35 PM
Lea, there is no question in my mind that once your mind turns from being circumspect in regards to protecting your privacy at work to representing who you are as a person, all of those features that now, while welcome, seem to be a hazard to your privacy will become features to be showcased. That is the time when you will begin "flaunting" them rather than hiding them. I know that you are genetically blessed (all your silly protestations to the contrary) and will wear clothing well if you can go from fear to flair.

I remember the day my "give aways" finally got to "totally out there". That is when you will really get how beautiful you are.

LeaP
10-09-2013, 05:04 PM
Oh, the privacy concerns are strictly tactical. I'm not overly concerned or anything, merely biding my time. If anything, I feel some pressure to accelerate things.

I don't know about flaunting ... not my personality type really, but it will be nice to be free.

I am genetically blessed in a few areas and am quite happy about that!

Marleena
10-09-2013, 05:21 PM
Well Lea I am happy for you. Those are all positive changes.:)

Oh and the seat belt issue sure hit home. It was something I wasn't expecting.

Eryn
10-09-2013, 05:53 PM
Lea, congratulations on your progress!

I have a feeling that your amazing 105 pound weight loss probably had more to do with your body shape changes than the hormones. All the steps are in the right direction, though!

Angela Campbell
10-09-2013, 06:04 PM
Yeah I now hate seatbelts. At work we are instructed to keep shirts tucked in.....not so good for me, and yeah ....nipples......i know

stefan37
10-09-2013, 06:58 PM
The one thing i have discovered about This journey is: "it has to flow naturally and in it's own time. ".

Kathryn Martin
10-09-2013, 07:06 PM
Why are seatbelts a problem, I hope no one here has a uniboob....... You're supposed to lay it between the boobs not over them....

Angela Campbell
10-09-2013, 07:17 PM
seatbelts never go in the middle if you are short they either go across the neck or the nipple.....owwwww

If wearing a bra no problem though

Marleena
10-09-2013, 07:40 PM
Lol @ Uniboob.

LeaP
10-09-2013, 07:56 PM
Weight loss does have a lot to do with it. There are more aspects to that than "just" weight loss, though. The upper body bulk, for example is partly due to weight loss and partly due to how I went about the weight loss. Hormones, of course, would've taken down the bulk on their own eventually. My weight-loss regimen consisted strictly of calorie restriction. Very little exercise, on purpose. My intention was to take down male muscularity. Not that women can't be muscular – but that male muscle bulk in combination with other male gender markers is just too much.

Some changes clearly are hormonal. This includes the fat redistribution and breast growth, naturally. The relocation of my waistline is a result of both of these. The overall redistribution of my weight has resulted in a visual difference in the relative masses of my body. If you were to see me from either front or back from the neck down in silhouette you would quite likely gender me female. A year and a half or so ago that would absolutely have been male. It a sum of many factors, many physical changes, some small, but which add to a greater whole. All the weight loss in the world without hormones would not have accomplished that.

[edit]


Why are seatbelts a problem..

The context was things that make you obvious when you are trying not to be. A seatbelt between the breasts makes them very prominent, just as does carrying a bag with the strap across your body.

Angela Campbell
10-09-2013, 09:11 PM
I agree with that Lea. I lost all of my weight (130 lbs) before I began taking hormones. And yes the muscle mass is much different now than it was after just losing the weight. The weight loss alone made my features more angled and sharp where the hormones are softening and rounding them out. I am not sure if there would be any noticeable changes in me if I had not lost the weight.

Rhonda Darling
10-13-2013, 10:08 AM
Lea:
Thank you ever so much for the very detailed explanation of your body changes. Congratulations, by the way. For those of us who have only flirted with the idea of transition, knowing that one's body can successfully change so drastically -- before SRS -- is encouraging.

Wishing you the best as you assume more and more your new (proper) role in life.

Rhonda

Marleena
10-13-2013, 10:46 AM
Lea, having just driven to the store my seatbelt goes directly on top of the right boob and being sore already it's a reminder it's there. If there's a way to adjust that belt I haven't found it. The jeans issue is probably because of a change in the waist line so they need to be pulled up higher.