Are we, as a group too suspicious and not supportive enough?

[Marleena]

When I first came over to this section I made sure I already had my letter and had started HRT. Why? Mostly because of the the fact I saw that a lot of time is spent being suspicious of new (TS) members. For the longest time I didn't feel like I fit in. It was like I had to keep proving I was a (TS) woman and if I said anything that seemed, or was wrong, it was like I had to keep proving myself. I do admit I read very little on the subject before posting here so I might have brought some of it on myself. My only concern at that time was me and controlling the GD.

So my question is if a new member or even an established member has gone the WPATH route and has cleared the gatekeepers to start transition why is there still suspicion?

Quite a few of us have gone as far as to prove we're real and not fakes. At what point do we accept people as TS and real? Are we being supportive enough or is too much time spent trying to discredit people?

I'll add this link about the supposed heirarchy for TS women for you all to ponder. It shows just how different we all can be.

http://www.avitale.com/PrimarySecondary.htm

[Angela Campbell]

I think the experiences and viewpoints vary as much as people do. No one will see things as I do and I cannot see things as you do. If someone thinks I am fake, I really don't care. I know what I am, what I am going through, and how I feel. No one else here has experienced the same or has the same preferences and opinions as I do. The reality is there are a lot of things that we all have in common, and we see it in each other, but after living a life of covering up and hiding and lying it makes sense not to be too trusting. At anytime the wrong words can hurt us and no one knows what those words are.

[Marleena]

I would like to thank Tamara right now for keeping an eye on the members. She has done a good job of exposing fakes.

Thanks Angela the tone of this forum has changed a lot for the better. I'm hoping this stays just a discussion and we continue to support each other.

[Badtranny]

As someone who is pretty open about not trusting anyone's words here I think I can explain my position at least.

In regard to the "real TS" issue, it only means one thing to me; I want people to be talking about actual real experiences because TS questioners need to hear real information and not fantasies or wishes.

I obviously have no way of knowing who the real deal is via this forum so all I can go by is my own experience and when somebody posts something that is unfamiliar to me I will follow up with a question. Sometimes the question sounds snarky because sometimes it is. It all depends on how touchy my BS meter is that day.

Who am I to judge? Nobody special that's for sure, and the last thing I want to be is some kind of guardian of the T brigade. The only reason it matters to me is because I distinctly remember what it was like to be playing around with cross dressing and questioning my identity. I was basically a blank slate and the words I read here were imprinted on me and most of them needed to be erased. Unfortunately white boards are difficult to erase completely and the old useless information just served to clutter up my once blank slate. I may have not wasted a year trying to figure myself out if there were more brutally honest and unapologetic people like me.

We recently lost one longtime member who was a fake and that hurt because I really looked up to that person. Her fraud was only possible because people never asked her the tough questions and by the time I joined she was already an established TS member. I was new, so I wasn't going to question her on some of her comments. She gave a lot of advice and a lot of opinions on a subject and a life that turned out to be unfamiliar to her.

The only reason I'm here is to share my experience for people that are coming behind me on the transition path. I am brassy and mouthy, and cranky, and rude, and a lot of other things, but I am 100% honest about my situation and as long as I am here being completely honest, I will expect the same from other people who claim to be living this life. People who are honestly questioning need honest field reports. If somebody comes in here talking about how wonderful their first week of transition was, I'm going to call BS and ask for some details. They do NOT have to prove anything to me, I don't personally care if they're real or not, my interest is for the questioners. I want them to know that this person is suspect.

Just a couple of weeks ago, a new member was busted for being a fraud. I don't remember her username but she kept posting about how wonderful it was to have SRS and it turned out that she was a total fake. What if I was considering SRS and I PM'd her for advice? How would you feel if you found out you were being advised about SRS by some dude with a tranny fetish? I'm not a postie and I'm not interested in SRS so I didn't really get into it even though I smelled a rat from day one. I was curious about why none of the Posties around here confronted her though.

No, I have no way of knowing how sincere or authentic someone is, but I care about their claims because I was once there myself. I was a newbie who was vulnerable to BS just like every other newbie. So I have no problem or concern if somebody wants to pretend to be TS and have a fake life on this board, but outrageous claims require outrageous proof. The people who are struggling with REAL TS lives deserve at least that.

[Kathryn Martin]

I think there is no hierarchy of transsexualism. The classifications by Person and Ovesey have proven to be quite useless and likewise have the classifications by Blanchard and Bailey and the like. For me it is more about differentiation based on medical need and required outcomes.

It really comes down to this: If you require to be whole and complete full transition including hormones and surgery then you are transsexual. If you require a presentation as the gender that does not match your birth sex to fully express yourself as a human being which can sometimes include hormones then you are gender variant. Each one has it's unique challenges and medical needs.

I am not suspicious but rather think when I see new members: show me!

[LeaP]

Regarding support itself, I think the balance is about right. The depth of open forum support is limited anyway. There is more substantive support that goes on behind the scenes, one on one.

Is there often suspicion expressed? Yes. Is it justified? Unfortunately, it is, all too often. Beyond the high-profile fakes, I am aware of long-term members who have encountered many others, again and again and again. It's just a fact of life that forums like this attract a certain amount of BS and fantasy participants. Unfortunately, it intersects with people whose life concerns are quite serious, as you know. So I think the suspicion is justified.

Even so, I still see plenty of posts from new members and new posters in the TS section receiving serious responses unless they are just completely and obviously full of baloney. I think the concern is for the theoretical few at the margins who may not present themselves well yet who are genuine. But mostly I think the evidence is that there are few of these. A lot of members go out of their way with marginal cases for quite a while. And there also is a small but steady stream of those whose concerns and characteristics are a bit outside the TS mainstream yet who persist and are ultimately taken in, so to speak.

[Angela Campbell]

To tell the truth you do not know how many times i have seen something here and thought.....I can't wait to see what Melissa is going to do with this one.....But I do respect the honesty.

the classifications by Blanchard and Bailey and by Person and Ovesey is so far off of what I have seen out there that I agree it is worthless.

[Marleena]

Yesterday we had a disgruntled new member that I believe left( she might have pissed the mods off too). We also had a postop woman that raised some eyebrows recently. I don't think the gatekeepers get it wrong very often, or at least statistics for successful transition are good.

As for me I have my own mess and have whined to a few of you. I'll just have to learn to live with it for now. I don't feel like I need support because I can't change much. At least things are bearable most of the time.

Thanks for the honest posts so far. My link was more to show just how different we are from each other and how we deal with things. I'm fine with it being dismissed by some of you. I just think either you're a(TS) woman or you're not.

[I Am Paula]

My question about TS fakes has always been- What the hell kind of fantasy is being TS? I don't think anybody here, given a choice, would say it's a glamorous and sexy condition, that is everything they ever dreamed about. Two thumbs up!
Don't you wish that everybody who glamorizes TS, or dreams of HRT as a way of getting AWESOME BOOBIES, could spend one day in our shoes?


Marleena's second post came in while I was typing. We will never dismiss you. You're vital, cute, and Canadian.

[Suzanne F]

So is it ok to be posting here and asking questions. I clearly state on the cross dressing forum that I am transgendered. I come here because I want to know how you have travelled down this road. I have only been out and honestly looking at my issue for 7 months now. Anyway I hope this is ok.
Suzanne

[Angela Campbell]

Sure it is ok Suzanne. This is the place to ask questions. Just keep in mind the answers are not always what some hope for, or expect.

[LeaP]

Don't you wish that everybody who glamorizes TS, or dreams of HRT as a way of getting AWESOME BOOBIES, could spend one day in our shoes?


2 weeks of Spiro would be better ...

[Angela Campbell]

2 weeks of spiro and a big hole in the wallet........and 5 hours on the electrolysis table.

[I Am Paula]

2 weeks of spiro and a big hole in the wallet........and 5 hours on the electrolysis table.

That's mean. Apropos, but mean. And they get to explain to their wives why they want to be called Gertrude from now on.

[Angela Campbell]

Mean? I was trying to be supportive.

[Cheyenne Skye]

I don't even think it would take 5 hours on the table.

[Andrea_Rae]

every trans forum i have ever visited is overwhelmingly negative, i typically don't stay long

[LeaP]

I don't know - some of the BDSM contingent might like it ...

Oh, and way to start out, Andrea.

[gonegirl]

I don't even think it would take 5 hours on the table.

For sure. The first hour is the worst and should put an end to most fantasies.

[Frances]

Actually Marlenna, some people avoided WPATH protocols and gatekeepers, and did not end up the way they had envisioned. Also, a lot of forumites will simply not take responsability for their guilt and shift it to their S.O. As someone who lost pretty much everything to do what was needed, I have a hard time with that.

There have been a lot fakes on the forum over the years, and that has made me a litlle suspicious, but I honestly think that people confuse being realistic with being unsupportive.

People have different ideas about what the protocols mean and what following them entails. I have been on the forum for 8 years. I have seen a lot of people come and go, and I am not thinking of anyone in particular. It's not about following protocols or not, but about taking responsability for one's life and the outcome. I try to support as much as I can, but self-victimization is easy to spot, you know?

[kimdl93]

I'm a bit cautious about chiming on the TS forum, because I'm somewhere towards the TS end of the spectrum, but not quite. TG or gendervariant...whatever. But I read most of the posts here, simply because I find the discussions much more interesting and more relevant to the life I lead than conversations about the color of my panties. Consequently, I am not terribly bothered by frank, realistic observations. Despite being a fairly long time member, I'm probably still a bit of a Pollyanna, and still befuddled by whatever motivates someone to fictionalize their own existence. Even more weirded out by someone who would adopt a TS persona and offer a highly fanciful version of their "transition" experience. Learning about these instances has lead me to be a tad more cynical about what I have read.

This all coming from a person who had to Google "Tastein Style".

[steftoday]

I can relate to a lot of kimdl93's post myself. I come to this part of the forum to learn and understand...

[Kimberly Kael]

I understand and respect Melissa's point and her concerns. In most forums it's a minor nuisance to have people who misrepresent themselves, but here? Coming out to people about cross-dressing can end relationships and careers, and when you add in medical aspects of a transition? Yikes. There's very real danger in setting unrealistic expectations and cheerleading people down a difficult path in life. I know I tend to emphasize the positive in my posts because I'm an optimist by nature. There's value in looking for the good in things – so long as you're realistic about the challenges and risks.

Where we differ is more in asking people to be utterly transparent about their identity. My transition isn't a secret and I don't mind being a visible advocate for our community but there are limits. My wife doesn't want our life together to be entirely public, and I have to admit that it's not ideal from a professional perspective, either. I'm open with people I've grown to trust, but I actively avoid showing up in search engines discussing my personal life.


I think there is no hierarchy of transsexualism [...] It really comes down to this: If you require to be whole and complete full transition including hormones and surgery then you are transsexual. If you require a presentation as the gender that does not match your birth sex to fully express yourself as a human being which can sometimes include hormones then you are gender variant.

That's quite the contrast between your statements here. Aren't they entirely contradictory? Or are you arguing that it's totally black and white? I disagree vigorously with your attempt to draw hard lines between identities based on criteria that are so tied to decisions rooted in economics, health, and a plethora of other unique variations among individuals.

[Kate T]

On the whole I think the TS forum is pretty supportive. All in all any questions I have posted here have been replied to with good will and a genuine attempt to help. That being from someone who does not identify as TS but rather CD / TG / bigendered / whatever other label you like.

I have found one thing though. If I post a question or a theory for discussion that questions some of the underlying beliefs expressed by many TS here then there is a tendency for responses to be dismissive rather than engaging in debate or education. Maybe I don't phrase my posts in these cases well.

I do read posts on these sections as whilst I believe TS is a different "beast" entirely to CD / TV / Bigendered etc. I like to think that reading these sections helps to increase my understanding and tolerance. I will tend to reply when I believe either the original post was not specifically intended for TS only or when I can contribute factual information (typically scientific) that may assist with answering a question.

[whowhatwhen]

I'm just a prototranny* and as such my experiences are totally different from the people already here.
There isn't a whole lot I can share or add, I simply just don't have the real world experience to provide any useful posting content.

*Meaning, I consider myself TS but at this moment I'm kinda stuck as I am for various reasons.

That being said I have this weird urge to verify myself to complete strangers on an internet forum?
Maybe it's because I respect lots of you and want to be seen as real, yet there is literally nothing I can do to prove it.

I'm still 3 months away from seeing an endo and rushing into drastic appearance changes aren't going to do any good.
I mean, I can say to people "I'm a woman, please address me as such" but the problem is I still quite obviously look like a guy, it's just asking too much.

So, in the meantime I live in trannyflux, dealing with my issues privately because I have nothing to post that anyone could relate to.
Until then all I can do is read.

[thechic]

Hi there
I do consider myself as a TS even though I have not had SRS Due to family issues money and other things in my life, I would not care if any believed I was not ts , because if any of you visited me you would find me as I have said.
I often read this section for advice as I am unable to relate to most stuff in the crossdressers section, there are some strange comments there.
I do see though that some comments in this section are quite hostile which I don't see in the crossdressers section. I will often go on face value so if someone says they are TS I believe them and give them a chance as there or many different people from many countries, there's really no other way unless you can meet them personally.
I cant understand why someone would pretend to be TS anyway, to me it seams pointless, and if they are lying it will show up eventually, being ts makes life so complicated is expensive hard , tender upstairs ,hiding the junk below , Blood tests ,constantly looking at appearance , hair, the emotional issues as well so why would anybody pretend.
Any way that's my 2 cents.

[emma5410]

And yet they do. The point being that they are fake and not undergoing all the things you describe. Without them and the GD being TS would be a breeze.
If someone posts something very misleading and they are challenged does that mean the challenger is being hostile? That is how it appears. The faker has made what appears to be a pleasant post and someone has questioned it. The faker appears to be the victim and the questioner mean and hostile. That is why it rarely happens.
The long term poster who was recently shown to be a fake is a good example. Apparently, some people had known for a long time that she/he was suspect but nothing was said.

I think everyone deserves the benefit of the doubt but sometimes it is very obvious. One of the problems is that the faker is usually painting a incredibly positive picture of what being full time is like, and some people, who are preparing for that step, lap it up and the cheering starts. I can understand that. It is a scary prospect to go full time. They want good news but as Melissa said in an earlier post it can prove very damaging.

[Angela Campbell]

I often read this section for advice as I am unable to relate to most stuff in the crossdressers section, there are some strange comments there.
I do see though that some comments in this section are quite hostile which I don't see in the crossdressers section. .

Relate to stuff in the cd section.....well that is an understatement. But so much for that. I have seen quite a bit of hostility against ts in the cd section myself, so I avoid it.

There again is another point as to why some people are questioned. It is a very inviting fantasy for a crossdresser to begin to think about being ts. I see no fault in fantasies, but in here a fantasy will not get very far and there will be comments. In the cd section it is all about fantasies, in here it is all about reality, cold and hard. In truth it may be a very good thing to dissuade a fantasy of this type with info on the reality of being ts. The hard part is trying to determine who is a fantasy seeker and who is a newby who really is trying to get through something and doesn't know where to begin. I remember being there.

I used to be very scared to post in here.

[BOBBI G.]

Corinne,

Like you, I would consider myself "prototranny". I will ride this train as far as I can, and I have no unrealistic hopes. Finances and age play a big part on the duration of my trip. Food on the table takes the upper hand when it comes to the removal of hair. Razor blades doe quite well for me at the present and they are less expensive. Surgery is also a huge consideration. Age plays into any knife work on my body. I, personally don't feel the need to have surgery. I know who I am and that is really all that matters. All I want is to appear more as I feel on the inside. Not a lot to ask. So, by current standards, I will never be totally transsexual. I can be quite happy living the rest of my life as who I am, and always have been, I guess.

My hope for myself and others is just be treated with the respect all human beings deserve, until proven undeserving. I lived in the shadow of who I was told I was nearly all my life, and now at 70, it is time to switch places, and be me, Bobbi.

Problems and phobias I have a bunch. Some I put in print, a lot are between my psychologist and me only, as it should be. I'm open and honest maybe to a fault, but its so much easier than getting caught in a lie. I do plan to live the rest of my years as happy as I can, or at least contented. I am complex, I am unique, I am me.

Angela,

You are right. Being a newbie is always difficult. As is evident from my bio. been here since 07 and only 171 posts. Spend a lot of time reading and learning from people on similar journeys. As someone who is about to start HRT really soon, I feel listening is much more important. After a while you sort of get an idea who is BS and who in not. Then you have the option to stop reading and answering theirs.

I've taken up enough time, and yes I do tend to ramble, so for now I am,

Bobbi

[Amanda M]

Until now, I have not posted on here, primarily because while I am a crossdresser, for me that's where it stops. However, as part of my work I do deal with gender issues quite often, and I hope you ladies will be happy enough to pop in from time to time as part of an educational process. The textbook stuff is fine, but it is no substitute for peoples' personal views and experiences.

Best to all,
Amanda.

[Marleena]

The first and last paragraph of the link I provided are the most important. So I've removed and posted them here. The rest of it is just talking about previous studies. I don't see Anne as agreeing with it but using it more for reference.


***********************************************


It is with dismay that I continue to encounter individuals with gender identity issues using the terms Primary and Secondary Transsexualism as diagnostic indicators. The terms show up repeatedly in Internet chat rooms, in the Internet news groups, in my email, and by individuals presenting to me in my private practice. The individuals who self-identify as Primary Transsexuals are usually using the term to mean that they are "Benjamin Type VI, true transsexuals." Those who self-identify as Secondary Transsexuals are usually trying to diminish their condition and to find some way to deal with their gender dysphoria without having to face the possibility of transitioning. As we shall soon see, neither term has ever had anything to do with severity or prognosis. There is no hierarchy of transsexualism. There are no Primary Transsexuals or Secondary Transsexuals. There are only gender dysphoric individuals who need help.

************************************************
Conclusion

Despite efforts to classify transsexualism hierarchically, neither sexual preference nor a history of feminine behavior have been shown to have any bearing on whether or not an individual will or will not profit from treatment. The work of Person and Ovesey was helpful in describing the range of behaviors and orientations to life that transsexuals may experience. From this we have learned that transsexuals can be widely different from one another, yet show a common need for their condition to be understood and helped. There are no primary transsexuals or secondary transsexuals. There are no true transsexuals or "wannabe" transsexuals. Being gender dysphoric in a society that barely acknowledges the existence of such a condition requires the development of coping mechanisms. Some coping mechanisms are more overt and obvious than others. But no matter what the individual does to survive, one thing is certain, everyone who suffers from gender dysphoria must eventually come to terms with his or her situation.

**************************************************
Me again>

I'm just attempting to get us thinking more about the difference between us even though we are the same. We have to remember that each of us has our own problems to deal with. I guess the ideal situation for a TS woman would be to have good health, lots of money and not need a job, no wife or kids, live in a safe place and have a good support structure in place. Oh and of course a nice canvas to start with.:)


I just want/hope for us to be open minded and not too rigid in what we expect others to do based on our own experiences and expectations. Textbooks are great to a point but much of the material out there is outdated and that's why I admire Anne's work. She's working in the field, is progressive and I find her to be credible based on her credentials. Do people really need gatekeepers here after passing the gatekeepers? Thanks for the great replies!

[arbon]

There are no true transsexuals or "wannabe" transsexuals.

I don't really agree. I think there are wannabe transsexuals - some men with that fantasy and are getting off on the whole idea of transition thinking their going to feel the same about it when they get to the other side.



Do people really need gatekeepers here after passing the gatekeepers?

I have gotten more useful information from TS women then I have from the professionals.

[Ann Louise]

In my opinion, although there are the "facts" of chromosomes, surgeries, and chemical compounds that are an undeniable factor in our lives here, since we are largely dealing with human feelings and emotions, and very powerful ones at that, we would be best served and extend an implicit hand of kindness and compassion if we explicitly stated whenever possible that the words that we post here are our opinions only.

The most emotional damage that I have received here, and inflicted upon others, too, is when a opinion is stated as a absolute, resolute fact. A fact is only a fact when it can be verified and proven to correspond with experience. An yet again, who's experience? Yours alone?

In my opinion only :)

Ann

[Badtranny]

Until then all I can do is read.

I don't know Co, this is a refreshingly honest post that we can use more of.

Everybody has something to contribute, but not everybody can speak to transition. That's all, you have your own unique experience and as long as you stick to what you know, then you will be considered authentic by people like me. ;-)

Whatever you are, ...be that.

[Marleena]

.
I have gotten more useful information from TS women then I have from the professionals.

Thanks Arbon. I do agree that this forum is a good source of info and I won't deny that. My problem is the GD hit me this time totally off guard when I thought I had it beaten and forgotten, I was not prepared at all. It seemed that as soon as I stopped being busy it came back with a vengeance. I was told to read up on it and went looking for sources of information and found most information to be severely outdated.

[ReineD]

My question about TS fakes has always been- What the hell kind of fantasy is being TS?

But is it not a fantasy among some (many?) members who mostly hang out on the other side of the forum? Also, their personal definitions of being "TS" are indeed varied. I have seen CDers (or Gender-Variants) who confuse a feeling of elation over presenting feminine as a conviction that this is what 'feeling like a girl' must feel like.

How many people have come into this section wanting to know how to feminize just enough as they want, but not go all the way? Do these people have the same level of Gender Dysphoria on Benjamin's gender scale as the short-term pre-ops and post-ops?

I think the members of this forum who have walked the walk (as far as they can notwithstanding medical and/or financial constraints), but who at least live full time, would do a disservice to confirm to everyone who says they are women, that they are, especially when such people are seeking approval. I know this sounds harsh, and maybe it is, but undue encouragement might stir someone in a Pink Fog to take steps they will later regret even if they end up not transitioning, especially when they lose the things that many transitioned TSs lose.

I think it is wise to point out to newcomers (as many members here do), that not everyone who thinks they are TS, are and that there are other alternatives to being either a man or a woman. And that transition should only take place when there are no other options for mental sanity.

As to the terms, "primary" vs. "secondary" TS, I will not debate the validity of those terms other than to say that not everyone who says they are women are in the same boat as those who do transition because living in a male body is beyond the capacity for human endurance. This is not to say that Gender Variants are not valid. They are, and they do suffer from degrees of Gender Dysphoria. But there is indeed a range.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Thank you Reine for saying this..
".... [I]disservice to confirm to everyone who says they are women, that they are, especially when such people are seeking approval"
Right on!!

fraudsters should be called out... fantasizers that want to have a real and valued presence here should be upfront...saying I'm not ts but here is my point of view is good communication
...coming here in "Girl mode" saying you are successfully living a dual gendered lifestyle when its about cd'ing is not good communication...cd's can sometimes "pass" here as ts...it should be no surprise to anyone ...
that people can do it over 1000's of posts is no surprise either..its catfish ts style...and people throw their lives away on internet fake romance all the time too..

I am quite certain that some crossdressers log onto non-ts women's websites and join forums as women.....and they never tell anyone and they communicate as a woman...maybe they join dating websites and start conversations as women too..
its a form of crossdressing....to think that doesn't happen here is naïve and its sad that it can color lots of our conversations and get us all off track..

it gets messy here because we are dealing with a very specific, very difficult, life and death situation..and anyone that misrepresents on purpose who they are and gets involved in these conversations should be ashamed for themselves...especially when it devolves into a situation where women that graciously give advice about this get slammed for being "trannier than thou" or not being supportive enough...and it reduces the ability of knowledgeable and sincere people to help others that are going through a special kind of hell as they try to decide not just who they are but what can they do about it in their lives...

it's irritating to me because I think that we get a bad rap when we point out the truth and its unfortunate that Marleena you even have this concern...

If a person comes up to me and says I'm ts...I sometimes think the best response is to gut punch them hard and say "no you are not"
...and only if they get up do you take them seriously...at which point you give them the phone number of an electrologist

[LeaP]

I don't really agree. I think there are wannabe transsexuals - some men with that fantasy and are getting off on the whole idea of transition


They aren't really wannabe transsexuals - they don't have a CLUE what that means - they are men fantasizing about becoming what men THINK women are.

I've had several recent conversations about the the reality of being transsexual, one as recent as last evening. And it's this - going through hell in your relationships, hurting people, risk and loss, fighting marginalization and more. Then there's the time, effort, money, and sacrifices associated with therapy, meds, clothing, electro, and procedures. And the time and attention burned on transition planning, which I'm just starting. Oh, and you get accused of being selfish and self-centered besides - with some justification. Every person engaged at every step invokes the same assumptions, questions, and suspicions all over again. It's long and painful, despite its goals. Is it any wonder the TS suicide rate is higher during and immediately post-transition?

So I agree with Kaitlyn when she says ...



If a person comes up to me and says I'm ts...I sometimes think the best response is to gut punch them hard and say "no you are not"
...and only if they get up do you take them seriously...at which point you give them the phone number of an electrologist

... because that sensation of getting beaten is going to become REALLY familiar.

If I hear one more person say "I'd transition in a heartbeat" I think I'll be ill.

[Amy A]

To answer the original question, no I don't think it's overly suspicious... I think when people come across as genuine and honest then they get treated accordingly. I've not had anyone demand I prove myself, and I'm yet to start full time, so I don't have that experience to point to to confirm my TS status.

I completely understand why some of the girls who are further down the road can sometimes urge caution, and furthermore I think it's needed; blind cheerleading doesn't help anyone. And the closer I'm getting to saying goodbye to the old me, the more I realise just how daunting it all is, and that someone who's just been for the odd 'girly' day out really can't offer me any advice that could be considered useful. I don't mean that to sound harsh, it's just the way it is. Opinions, yes, and as long as they are qualified as such then fine.

I'm entering into the scariest period of my life and I need real advice from those who have been through it. The harder it is for fakers to get by on this website then the less chance there is of me, or someone like me, making major decisions based on someone elses lie.

[Kimberly Kael]

I'm still 3 months away from seeing an endo and rushing into drastic appearance changes aren't going to do any good. I mean, I can say to people "I'm a woman, please address me as such" but the problem is I still quite obviously look like a guy, it's just asking too much.

I can virtually guarantee that's a feeling everyone who transitions later in life has to cope with, so you're certainly not alone. Finding confidence in your identity is a huge struggle after a lifetime of being contradicted by everyone around you. That's just one of many challenges that differentiates the transsexual fantasy from the reality. During my first year after transitioning on the job it was something I thought about each and every day, sometimes while getting dressed, sometimes when glancing in the mirror, frequently when encountering other women in restrooms, every time someone misgendered me in a meeting or on the phone, etc. I'm approaching my fourth anniversary now and many days my right to assert womanhood is a complete non-issue ... but those moments still happen from time to time.

The worry-free transition doesn't exist for the vast majority of us, so it's completely reasonable to share concerns and hear from others how they cope. That's a much more useful and authentic way of interacting here than pretending otherwise.

[Nigella]

This forum is open which allows anyone to take the information posted by those who have travelled the road. This information can be used to form a base for their own pseudo existence.

I don't think that anyone is suspicious, more careful. Very often you will see "Don't transition unless you have to", how many initially think this is BS, but realise later that it is a sage piece of advice. The pseudo TSs are eventually weeded out, some quicker than others.

We need this forum to be open and honest, those following in the footsteps of those already gone before do not need false hope, they need hard bitter truth.

[sandra-leigh]

It really comes down to this: If you require to be whole and complete full transition including hormones and surgery then you are transsexual. If you require a presentation as the gender that does not match your birth sex to fully express yourself as a human being which can sometimes include hormones then you are gender variant.

That may be your opinion, but it is not generally considered a fact. The several therapists and doctors I have been to, and the transition workshop that I am attending these days, all say flat out that SRS or manifest desire for SRS are not defining characteristics for "transsexual".

My gender therapist is the "gatekeeper" for my province. She indicated months ago that she wouldn't have any problem signing surgery letters for me if I ever ask. She said that knowing that I haven't asked and haven't expressed any more interest in bottom surgery than "Some days when the stress is getting to me, I think surgery would be easier." It wasn't said as a "temptation" or a "challenge" either: it was a passing remarking conveying that as far as she is concerned, any "boundaries" on where on the spectrum I am are only any ones I impose on myself, that I met her criteria for anything up to and including SRS if I want it.


2 weeks of spiro and a big hole in the wallet........and 5 hours on the electrolysis table.

After more than a year on HRT (including spiro), and undertaking laser ($1500), it was still being strongly implied by some people here that I was "really" only a cross-dresser.


If a person comes up to me and says I'm ts...I sometimes think the best response is to gut punch them hard and say "no you are not"
...and only if they get up do you take them seriously...at which point you give them the phone number of an electrologist

Whatever. I am transitioning whether you like it or not.

About 3 days ago, my wife said that if I change my legal name, even if that is all that changes, then she won't be able to stay in the relationship. She wasn't being contradictory or angry; she was just telling me about how she feels. I'm hurting, but I don't think I can hold back, that I need to do it before I can consider employment. Fortunately at the moment there is still some leeway, that she seems willing to "see how things go" for the next while.

[Angela Campbell]

The harder it is for fakers to get by on this website then the less chance there is of me, or someone like me, making major decisions based on someone elses lie.

I would hope that NO ONE ever makes a major decision on their life based on anything said here or anywhere else on the internet. Yes good info is often here but do your homework, do research, talk to real people in the real world, talk to professionals, but don't do anything because someone here told you something!

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Sandra I don't understand what you got from my comment
I don't understand why you would take it personally

...I actually don't care whether you transition or not either!! so we have a good thing going!! neither one of us cares!!!

all I said is that to transition you have to really want it...
if that upset you i'm sorry, but give me a break...

[Amy A]

I would hope that NO ONE ever makes a major decision on their life based on anything said here or anywhere else on the internet. Yes good info is often here but do your homework, do research, talk to real people in the real world, talk to professionals, but don't do anything because someone here told you something!

No I wouldn't, and perhaps I phrased it wrong, but there's always the chance that someone might post something that sticks in the mind of a reader, or offer a bit of advice that might sway someone slightly towards a particular direction... my point is that advice given online when apparently from a position of authority and knowledge can and will carry further and can have a bearing on how people may think or indeed how they might interpret other information. Especially when, as recently happened here, the giver of that advice has spent considerable time gaining people's trust.

[Kathryn Martin]

I don't hold much stock in what "several therapists and doctors" might say that work in the Psychological/Psychiatric Industrial Gender Complex. I have seen people receive surgery letters that should have been prevented from getting them in the first place. Since the late 70s the psychological/psychiatric community has developed this as money maker of unbelievable proportions. So many here end up with so called gender counselors or specialists who would diagnose a stick with gender dysphoria and call anything under sun that moves transsexual. This is one of the biggest issues in the larger trans community. It works for them because the distressed flock to them in the thousands to "explore" themselves and they make a mint.

I agree with Kaitelyn. No matter what the age of those that transition, if their distress is intense enough to transition and truly seek surgery (even if prevented by health issues or in rare cases by financial issues although I am always cautious of that because that one is a lot about choices you make) then they will get there.

[Rianna Humble]

After more than a year on HRT (including spiro), and undertaking laser ($1500), it was still being strongly implied by some people here that I was "really" only a cross-dresser.

You don't think that his could have anything to do with the number of times that you protested that you were definitely not transsexual?

[thechic]

I would hope that NO ONE ever makes a major decision on their life based on anything said here or anywhere else on the internet. Yes good info is often here but do your homework, do research, talk to real people in the real world, talk to professionals, but don't do anything because someone here told you something!

I must say I agree with this advise , by all means get info from the internet, but seek professional advise ,that's exactly what I did , i did plenty of reading but in the end I did get help from my family and professional's. To much of a life change to take a possible risk. I was told years ago only believe 50% of what is on the internet.

[Zylia]

I have seen quite a bit of hostility against ts in the cd section myself, so I avoid it.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm actually really surprised by this. I have only been here for a couple of months, but I haven't seen or experienced much hostility versus anything whatsoever in the CD section. I think I've seen one or two inappropriate remarks on gay people, but that's about it. If anything, everyone is overly nice, almost too nice, bordering on dishonesty. I'm sorry to hear this.

[whowhatwhen]

I wonder if trans men go through all this "real(x)" type stuff.
Also it seems that most of the not-enough-gatekeepers/not real trans crowd are all ones that already completed their transition?

I mean, did you consider yourselves men until the second you woke up from SRS?
When it comes to petty infighting the trans community is one of the worst.

[ReineD]

Corinne, in the post above mine you write: "I wonder if trans men go through all this "real(x)" type stuff."

The transmen that I know don't seem to. Maybe this is because penile transplants are not as perfected as vaginoplasties so there are transmen who choose to not go for it.

But, I'm sure that within each group there is an elite or if you prefer, a pecking order. It exists among men, women, gays, lesbians, also even crossdressers. Why wouldn't it exist among TSs? It's human nature to be territorial I think. The "us" vs. "them" mentality.

It even happens among the Sneetches!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3yJomUhs0g

[LeaP]

Benjamin - who was not a psychiatrist or psychologist - used 3 groupings for his scale: 1) transvestites (he used crossdressers interchangeably also), 2) non-surgical transsexuals, and 3) true transsexuals. (And no, I'm not bringing this up to argue semantics.)

But he goes on to clarify - Group 2 are actually those who "waver" between "transvestic urges and transsexual demands for transformation." Group 3, the transsexuals, are characterized by not only the consistent desire and need for a "conversion operation" (his term), but is indicated for both. He also states that "It is true that the request for a conversion operation is typical only for the transsexual and can actually serve as a definition." But he acknowledges that every case is different and that overlaps occur.

So why do we ALWAYS have this furor? Simple - numbers and politics. IF you take the view, as I do, that the overwhelming majority (but not all) of honest-to-God transsexuals seeks SRS, then what am I to make of the situation where more people claiming to be be TS don't seek SRS than those who do?

Well, I conclude that most of them can't be transsexual, even if I can't always discern which are which. It also sets the scene for the suspicion we are talking about, forgetting the fakers for a moment. I make a 3rd-order inference that the so-called hierarchy and elitist view is created by the non-TS. This last is based in part of the suspicious reactions of the TS population. But rather than arising from exclusionary urges, several responses in this thread point to a number of really good, real-life explanations of why its important to keep non-TS out of TS support discussions ... lest they quite literally screw up someone's life.

My view on acceptance is that I couldn't care less if the TS membership accepts me into the sorority (or something), and I don't understand why so many here ARE driven to be accepted as TS. Personally, I was far more concerned about being perceived as REAL, which is why I outed myself to a number of you (you know who you are).

Anyway, acknowledging that there are TS who do not want SRS, as always the great point prover is transition (if unfair to a few). That's just the way it is.

By the way, psychiatry was lobotomizing people for this not too long ago. Besides, I haven't met a non-TS practitioner yet who knows half as much as many here.

[whowhatwhen]

This is kinda funny because I've met a few non-op TSes in real life and aside from that they're women in every way, even the discrimination they face as women.
What are they then? Men? Despite actually made the transition and are legally and physically living life as women?

See, some people here are too stuck up in theory and projecting their own life and expectations on to others.
Hell, I'm not going to pass the true tranny test from lots of you but to be honest I don't really care.

Like I said earlier.
I could burn right into it, come out, change so much so fast and in the end I'm still going to look and sound like a guy and it's too much to ask of someone I don't know to treat me as a woman.

Besides, this contradicts the whole BE 10000% SURE YOU REALLY HAVE TO stuff because you're basically saying that unless you rip through at top speed you're actually a confused man, or, at the very least "not a woman".

In regards to trans men I didn't mean about surgery, I just wonder if they get "not a real man" as much as transwomen like playing the "not a real woman" angle.

[whowhatwhen]

If you take a young transwoman faced with the cost of education, possibly lots of electrolysis and living in a place where SRS is $10,000+ then it's really not fair to give the "if you need it you'll find a way" angle either.
Money matters and it's not always easy to come by, and no, BOOTSTRAPS won't help all the time either.

(lolronpaul2008)

[Kathryn Martin]

Corinne, I disagree. I have seen trans women living on social assistance save enough for surgery in 4 years by making very careful choices. I could show you how to make the money in two years and live well enough. There is much chest beating about the financial issues, and much throwing up of hands and resigning. If you have ever had to make the kind of choices whether to feed your kids or yourself, then you learn that what is possible.

[LeaP]

This is kinda funny because I've met a few non-op TSes in real life and aside from that they're women in every way, even the discrimination they face as women.
What are they then? Men? Despite actually made the transition and are legally and physically living life as women?

See, some people here are too stuck up in theory and projecting their own life and expectations on to others.
.

Anyone who has transitioned certainly has proven the point, as I put it.

Then, there is a difference between approaching something from a probability standpoint versus approaching the individual. This isn't projecting and this isn't theoretical. This is being informed by the real-world. Everyone – and I mean everyone – does it all of the time, every day, every minute, in everything they do. You rely unthinkingly and instinctively on the assessment of probability for everything that you do in life that doesn't require you to stop and analyze it first. There's no other way to exist. Without the ability to trust to probability and experience, we would barely be able to move. Dragging the unstated into the discourse doesn't make it any less valid

[whowhatwhen]

Corinne, I disagree. I have seen trans women living on social assistance save enough for surgery in 4 years by making very careful choices. I could show you how to make the money in two years and live well enough. There is much chest beating about the financial issues, and much throwing up of hands and resigning. If you have ever had to make the kind of choices whether to feed your kids or yourself, then you learn that what is possible.

That's 4 years where by some they would be considered "not a woman", and that's even if your case would work for everyone.
I thought we weren't supposed to define gender identity by genitals because that line of thinking would piss off a hell of a lot of trans men.

Could you tell a transitioned non-op TS that's facing all the same issues in life you are and tell her she's not a real woman or real transsexual because she doesn't have a vagina or opts not to get SRS?
Could you tell a trans man that he's still a woman until he gets a penis?

[Kathryn Martin]

You see as far as I am concerned there is no such thing as a non-op TS. There are TS who cannot have surgery because of health issues. They attempt to get to the closest approximation. Transmen have a tragic lot still because they cannot be whole with the current state of medicine.

[whowhatwhen]

Yeah, but you see there is such a thing.
They're out there happily living life as women and facing all the same issues you are yet not having a vagina makes them what? If not a woman then the only thing left is that they're men by that view.

That metric definitely does say that transmen aren't real men, unless you count breast removal but breast augmentation is the mtf analogue so it falls apart there as well.
Surgery means nothing when no one is looking at your junk and you're actually living the life congruent with your gender identity.

[Marleena]

Corinne some of the thinking here is that even if you pass the gatekeepers and truly know you are a woman it doesn't prove anything. I'm hearing that only if you want SRS and can get it only then are you truly TS. It's a no excuses type of approach that you need to prove yourself.

So since postops are now women and not actually TS anymore the playing field here shrinks dramaticaly. We automatically eliminate postops and those preops who can't or won't get SRS for whatever reason or excuse.

Going by that logic there weren't transsexuals before SRS became available. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding it all.

Anyways this has been a great thread with lots of good discussion.:)

[emma5410]

For me the key thing is the intent. If you want to have SRS but cannot for health reasons, or you have to wait four years to finance it then you are TS. I cannot understand people who claim to be TS but are happy to have a penis. They are on the TG spectrum, close to the TS end but not quite there for some reason. I also do not buy the 'no one knows what I have in my pants but me so it does not matter' argument. It should matter to you. You are the one that really matters not other people and if you happy to still have it between your legs then that means something.
I have not had SRS. I am still doing my RLE but as soon as I can have it I will. Fortunately, like Rianna, I live in a country where the state will pay for the operation so I do not have to save up on a limited income. If I was not it would be the main priority for any spare income I had because it is vital for me to have SRS

[whowhatwhen]

But it doesn't matter to them, they achieved their goal without SRS and are happily living as women even if that includes all of the BS that comes with it as well as any BS that comes with being trans.
I mean, sure, if you have the balls go up to a transitioned non-op TS and tell her she's not a woman, but keep in mind that you're also applying that to trans men as well.

Even SRS doesn't make it 100% because there have been cases where it was given when it shouldn't, yet the non-op TSes still are living on fine as women.
That's the funny part, they're not on the internet theorizing trans womanhood - they're out there living it and IMO that is the difference that counts.

E:
Also, I know you know that HRT causes physical and irreversible body changes right?
Somehow I doubt there is a contingent of men clamoring for impotence just to play dress up.

[emma5410]

That is fine. There is nothing wrong with being happy with how you are. There are people on the spectrum who dress for long periods. That does not make them TS. I am not telling them they have to have the operation.
I really wonder who these people are that you build your argument on. You claim that you do not need to have SRS to be TS and you reference a group that conveniently supports your point. It makes your argument stronger when you claim to have other people who are living that way rather than just your own personal opinion.
Okay, let me play the same game. People who are TS are either post op or planning to have SRS so maybe your group are not TS but something else.
For the record I am not just theorising on the internet. I am nine months into my RLE and living the reality every day.

There is a reason that many transmen do not have bottom surgery. It is because the operation is not as sophisticated or as successful as vaginoplasty. Most would have it tomorrow. Most are not in the same category as the group that you keep referring to.

I have read a lot of posts on this and other forums from men who like to dress as women but do not want to lose their penises. They want to know if they can take hormones and feminise themselves. They are definitely not TS. How many do it without asking first.

[whowhatwhen]

Okay then, so the transwomen who takes hormones and legally transitions still isn't a real transsexual because they didn't opt for SRS?
I've actually met 2 IRL, and I'm sure more exist.

What are the non-op transwomen then? Just men playing dress up with HRT on the side?
Would you be willing to tell them that to their face?

I'm not questioning your validity, just the apparent reasoning that all non-op TSs are not TS but men playing dress-up.
They're also living the same life you are, just that they didn't opt for surgery. They took the same HRT regimen, have gone through the same legal processes, and deal with the same day-to-day stuff.

Why are they not valid?
Why does them not having a vagina make them not a woman?

I do know why many men don't get bottom surgery, but the same line of thinking exists that apparently genitals matter and you're just pretending until you have surgery.

[emma5410]

I do not know what they are. I am just giving you my opinion that if you are TS then having a penis is a real problem. There was a news story, in the US I think, not so long ago about someone being banned from a womens changing room. Apparently they were sat there with their penis on full display. They were outraged as many of your group would no doubt be that they were asked to leave. Was that a woman. Maybe it was just someone lacking in common sense or maybe it was someone who feels they are TS but are not quite there.
For the record I would not go up to one of them and say they were not TS. But it is hardly an argument that they are TS because they would be upset if someone suggested that they are not.

[whowhatwhen]

You know who else says that?
The GGs who basically say that you're only a woman if you were born one.

I know that example you talk about, but it's actually a good example that transpeople can be just as ****ed up as everyone else.
How many times on here has there been an article about a transwoman doing something bad and half the damn forum trips over itself to misgender her on purpose? "Oh, I'm not like one of them - I'm one of the good ones."

But to answer your last question, I told you, the 2 that I personally met.
They already transitioned just minus SRS, they are in fact, women living as women.

If the world was as black and white as what you're implying transsexuals shouldn't exist at all.

[LeaP]

Why don't we reduce the scope a bit, especially since you've expressed a concern with the theoretical. Corinne – do you think you need to pursue SRS ... or not?

[whowhatwhen]

Oh, definitely I plan on it in the future.
I just take issue with the fact that there is an overlap between TERFs and some transwomen.

And it's only transwomen, I don't think I've ever heard this stuff coming from the FtM side.

[Marleena]

I didn't post this thread to start a war. Corinne please leave the GG's out of this. The majority of GG's here are supportive.

[whowhatwhen]

I'm not dragging them in, the fact that they're even here means they're likely not trans exclusionist.

[Marleena]

I think you'll find many GG's outside of this forum supportive of TS women.:)

[whowhatwhen]

Yes, I know that.
I just meant that the fact that there exists even some parallels between TERFs and some transwomen is absurd.

TERF being trans exclusionary radical feminist.

Added:
Just as a small trip down memory lane, there was once an argument in this very forum suggesting that in order to be a "real TS" you had to have attempted suicide.

[Kathryn Martin]

Just as a small trip down memory lane, there was once an argument in this very forum suggesting that in order to be a "real TS" you had to have attempted suicide.

That makes me laugh. The observation remains though that many transsexuals have attempted suicide at least once..... In fact 43% before the age of 30 and 48% overall..... Have you read the statistics?

[whowhatwhen]

So by your own post 50% of transsexuals aren't transsexual?

[arbon]

It's been an interesting discussion

Personally if I don't meet someone's standard of a ts here it does not mean anything

It's out there in the world where I want to be taken seriously as a woman

Okay I got that in before this thread gets locked

[emma5410]

Lets take in the other direction then. You make great play that they are living as women. if someone lives and dresses as a man, has a penis and does not take hormones but is adamant that they are TS and a woman inside. Are they TS in your opinion? And if not, to use your own question, are you prepared to walk up and tell them?

[whowhatwhen]

The answer would be no.
That's essentially why I am where I am and not bulletting ahead at top speed, you have to meet people half way.

You can't do no changes and expect people to treat you as a woman, would I tell them? I don't know.
If they are TS then they will undergo at least HRT, that along with presenting as a woman is my metric.

Every now and then this forum gets speech that wouldn't sound out of place at a "women born women" rally.

To what end is all of this?
How many gatekeepers do you want to add?

I also know that several of you are lesbians, how do you feel about those who think that you're not a real TS unless you're attracted to men?
This TS hierarchy **** is deplorable.

[emma5410]

The point is that I feel I am a woman inside. A penis is a major symbol of masculinity. Why on earth would I want to keep it. Why do you think they want to keep it. I assume you agree that they want to and it is not due to other reasons.

[whowhatwhen]

That I can't answer, I guess they don't need a vagina to feel whole.
Perhaps living their life as a woman and the hormones are enough, my whole beef is that it's not anyone's place to call them anything but women because they're making the same sacrifices as post-ops are.

I don't like having a penis either, I mean, frankly it pisses me off but I'm not burning at top speed for SRS.
It will happen in time but for me there are more important things to work on first.

[Catherine Hopkins]

You girls are making this sound like a competition. And, to be honest, a pissing competition. How very male of you.

There are many reasons why someone might be part time or non-op or non-hormone. They might be postponing treatment to a better time and place FOR THEM. They might be precluded from any treatment, medically. I've heard the argument about NEED but every need is balanced by the rest of life. I feel I need to end up a woman, 100%. It may take me many years to complete this journey, for my own reasons, so maybe the pressure on my isn't as high as on others and my OWN balance gives me the luxury of scheduling my transition. I'm on the hormones, I've done my time on the electrolysis table (112 hours and counting) and the Spiro makes me feel more comfortable, not want to stop, so yes, I class myself as transsexual, and I will even if I fail to reach journey's end.

I'm sorry, girls. NONE of you have a right to classify anyone as non-transsexual by your own criteria. Those criteria may very well work for YOU but that's the point, they're personal. The example of the willy waver in the changing room is just a red herring. That person, whatever they were, was also exercising terrible judgement.

[Badtranny]

Wow, I miss all the good stuff. When did this thread turn into an SRS commercial?

For the record, I am a fully transitioned woman who is a legal female on every identifying document all the way to my Birth Certificate. I also apparently have reached a point of passing so completely that the people who just hired me had no idea until they checked my background. Just a year ago I was lamenting how painful it was to not pass all of the time, but another round of FFS and another year of hair growth has done wonders so now things have changed for the better.

Oh and I'm non-op. NON-op. I've had plenty of procedures, but I won't be getting GRS/SRS/GCS because I don't want it. I have no testicles because I wanted them gone, but I don't want a vagina. Nobody has EVER asked what I'm hiding down there and I don't walk around talking about it ...unless I want to.

Most of my close girlfriends know the truth and they don't care at all aside from being jealous that I can pee on a tree. My genitals do not define me. Those who would like to take a shot at defining me are more than welcome to do so.

To steal a the title of one of my favorite movies; Bring It On.

[Nigella]

Arbon, you hit it on the head :)

Due to the nature of the human being, there will never be consensus, what we don't need though is the thoughts and feelings of one or two derailing things. This thread started off quite well, although it was commented that it was another "here we go again" thread. Now it has gone too far to be recovered,