What Makes A Woman A Woman ?

[KellyJameson]

In your opinion what makes a woman a woman.

Is it the absence of body hair?

Is it the ability to give birth?

Is it the shape of her face?

The length of her bones?

The softness of her skin?

The timber and texture of her voice?

The size of her breasts?

Is it her mind, emotions, psychology as that which is abstract and without form?

Is it the dance between mind and brain where each determines the other through the chemicals of hormones, genes and cells.

Some would say a woman is only a woman if she is born as such. Does this mean a sterile woman with XY chromosomes and complete androgen insensitivity is not a true woman?

Are the intersex neither?

Is there really such a thing as a man or woman separate from procreation?

Is a woman nothing more than a person stating themselves as one?

Can a woman be a woman if no one else see's her as such?

The female is the template for all mammals which men are made out of and they will revert back to their original template when their body stops creating their sex so is everyone female but males are simply females with something extra added for reproduction and once reproduction is no longer needed they go back to being what they were originally templated for?

Before you know what you are you must know what you are trying to define.

[Angela Campbell]

kind of like used in this sense by United States Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart to describe his threshold test for obscenity

I know it when I see it

[PaulaAnn]

That's a pretty convaluted topic....everyone has their own interpretation ;for me ,it's mind set and how I feel about me as a Transwoman.I feel good with what I present to others;that's good enough for me.
PaulaAnn

[Allison Quinn]

I know from enough personal experience and seeing the tears of friends that the answer does NOT lie in genitals.


Is it her mind, emotions, psychology as that which is abstract and without form
This is more along the lines of what I would agree with. It's something that i've sort of known in my head for ages.

And genetically speaking, anything can happen. Some women grow a lot of body hair, some men don't. Others are infertile. I've known girls with voices deeper than my natural male voice as well. Yet all of them are women, better yet all of them know they are women. it's the same with men, trans and genetic alike. I was just talking with a cisgendered friend the other night and he had mentioned how he could not fully understand it because he simply has always known he was a man. He never questioned it even with all of his otherwise feminine traits.

So for me at least I believe that what makes you you, is mostly made up in the mind. If it's pre-determined or pushed out by nurture i'm not sure of, but at this point I really don't care.

[Marleena]

I have a bad feeling about this thread but I see it has been edited already. Anyways, I'm no scientist but it must originate in the brain since it is not defined by what is between the legs. My own opinion.

[Kathryn Martin]

These questions are both interesting in their intent and stereotypical in their application, and so we tend to give stereotypical answers.



My answer would be that women are capable to create inside and outside spaces in which nurture others so they may grow and thrive, on a physical, emotional and spiritual level. Can you find yourself in this?

The female appears to be the template but it is not. Prior to the separation of the sexes during the 8th to 12th day of gestation we are neither female nor male but both in potential and ability.

[arbon]

If the people around me perceive me as a woman and I perceive myself as a woman then I must be

[Zylia]

My opinion is that the question "what makes a woman a woman?" isn't really one question.

First, this. If you ask "what is the highest spot on earth?" there are (arguably) at least two scientifically correct answers. The first one (and probably the more 'popular' one) is the top of the Mount Everest, because it's the highest point above sea level. However, an astrophysicist will point out that the earth isn't a perfect sphere: the 'sea level' near the equator is actually farther from the very center of the earth than the sea level near the poles. Because of that, the top of the Chimborazo mountain in Ecuador is actually two kilometers farther away from the earth's center than the top of the Mount Everest. Is it a matter of point of view, or is it a matter of defining and explaining how you're planning to measure something before you present the measurements? I don't know, I'm not a geologist nor an astrophysicist.

So if you 'measure' someone's 'womanness' (on the (false?) assumption that gender is something binary in the first place), what do you actually measure? Their biological sex (with all its implications)? The gender (identity) as perceived by the individual itself? The individual's gender expression compared to other people with that gender? The gender (expression) as perceived by others? Their 'legal' sex/gender? Something I forgot? All of these? None of these? Three out of five?

[Pink Person]

The answer to this question depends on your system of classification and how much variation
it allows. Most people prefer to put themselves in a class by themselves or a self-serving one that excludes people they don't like. Consequently, I'm not optimistic that you will get many useful answers.

[Badtranny]

You can't avoid the binary in that particular question. What makes a woman a woman is the same thing that inspires the pink or blue bonnet.

We are born how we're born, but if you amend the question with "in the view of society" then you can begin to make lists.

Post-op TS women may want to end with the binary argument but unfortunately there are many post-op women who will never be viewed as a woman by society. They are not gifted with the physical attributes to pull it off. The fact that they have the vajeen does nothing to convince the world that they are indeed women. These particular TS women almost always argue the gender binary to prove their womanhood, but that argument does not serve them well.

All of us who have transitioned are not genetic women. We will never be, and arguments about what makes a woman are not going to change that.

[melissaK]

I think it's what a culture decides a woman is.

And like any culturally defined concept - the definition evolves with time, and it's definition is situational determined by the time and place it is used. Indeed philosophers battle such issues, and the US Supreme Court encountered this in defining porn as someone said.

When Arbon says we are a woman when: 1) others think we are, 2) when our government says we are, and 3) when we think we are, all of that really is just recognition of our culture lining up with our personal view of ourself.

An individual can't set the definition, because language exists to facilitate communication between individuals to enable them to form cultures.

And we know there's not a medical test for it? Science has found out it's not just XX chromosomes, there's variations like X and XXX. Then there's X chromosomes with gene variations so the chromosomes aren't creating uniform versions of XX women. And evidence is there to show that gene variations on XY chromosomes cause versions of XY that behave or have physical structures like an X. It's wonder lushly varied and complicated.

So in the end, I think Arbon probably got it simplified the best. When the individuals belief corresponds with the cultures.

[Kimberly Kael]

I think it's what a culture decides a woman is.

That's not an unreasonable working definition, though it hides a lot of subtleties. There are cultures within cultures and attitudes change over time, so you've got a lot of room around the edges of any definition. Being accepted as a woman in my home, my community, and by my government doesn't mean there's national consensus – but for all practical purposes it has been good enough for me. Does that mean I stop being a woman when I travel, depending on where I go? Not in my own eyes, and that's perhaps the most important sub-culture of all.


Post-op TS women may want to end with the binary argument but unfortunately there are many post-op women who will never be viewed as a woman by society.

So true! There's little to be gained from advocating an exclusionary view as a small minority, because trending toward policies of exclusion will eliminate all of us from womanhood. I tend to be incredibly lenient when it comes to supporting self-identification.

[Robbin_Sinclair]

.......The female is the template for all mammals which men are made out of and they will revert back to their original template when their body stops creating their sex so is everyone female but males are simply females with something extra added for reproduction and once reproduction is no longer needed they go back to being what they were originally templated for?.......

I've never heard that before. It makes sense to me.

I'm 67 just starting to come out to myself in the past year or so. Today was an all day fem day on the sewing machine. Tonight, I'm the woman who I would like to be in a dress that I just made playing bass along to a Puerto Rican FM radio station playing Spanish music.

Life couldn't get better. Had to come to the computer to see how the Red Sox and Tigers are doing, in case my wife calls from the game. XXrobbin

[Ariamythe]

I think that, for a lot of us here, the definition of "woman" includes the perception of others. A woman is, in part, only a women when society views her as one. Not a fair situation, to be sure, but can any of us deny that we base at least part of our self-perception by how well we "pass," by when we were first "ma'am"ed, by when we get the marker changed on our driver's license? Self-identity is supremely important, but it's that disconnect between self-identity and the perception of others that helps cause dysphoria in the first place.

[Barbara Ella]

I have to agree with Arbon and Melissa. First off, one must define what makes a woman, and that question has been debated here over and over without resolution. It is a cultural/societal assignment/recognition of a variety of variables that when in congruence in sufficient quantity triggers the reaction of one being a woman. I cannot define these variables so I cannot list them in myself and make a judgement of how I match them. I only know that enough of them, whatever they are, are in alignment to where I fit a cultural valuation much closer to woman.

Cultural - self alignment. Works for me.

Barbara

[Nicole Erin]

What makes a woman a woman is the same thing that makes a man a man - being an adult who accepts responsibility.
But after THAT - I would say socializing and physical presentation. Even if you do not pass well, you still need to do your best at both. If you can do those two things, you will be accepted as a woman. Not everyone will accept it (like bigots and chauvinist men) but most will.

As a transsexual woman, you won't have all the benefits of being a GG but also won't have to deal with the downsides.

Yeah there are always arguments about "real men" or "real women". Check out the lyrics to the Joe Jackson song "Real men" to get an idea.

If you are learning how to socialize/assimilate as a woman, just really pay attention to how men and women act. Note the extremes then aim slightly more to the female side.

Also about the government - to them we are all just numbers. Even if the GOVT doesn't accept you as your chosen gender - it seldom matters.

[Rogina B]

My answer would be that women are capable to create inside and outside spaces in which nurture others so they may grow and thrive, on a physical, emotional and spiritual level. Can you find yourself in this?

Exactly! And when you watch a caring mother interact with their family and friends you realize that "this aspect of femininity" can't be sythesized..

[bas1985]

I vote for acceptance. If other women see me as a woman I am a woman. I don't vote for acceptance by men, because for men (at least for the majority of them) there is the question of "sexuality". I may be a woman but not "physically" passable. For a man I think it is difficult to divide the physical from the emotive, (also for a GG to accept as a "male" a FTM would be the same).

So I think that if women see me as a woman I am a woman.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

boy this thread makes me uncomfortable...

I feel like i'm drenched in treacle, judgment and wishful thinking all at the same time...

[Anne Elizabeth]

This is a great question and I have been pondering it not just since this was posted but all my life. I agree with being accepted as one by all others we interact with daily. However, that may just be the sign of acceptance into a female gender binary, (Which I would really love) and does that really make me a woman? One can also argue that women are more nurturing and more caring, more loving than men. I ask why can't a male have those qualities? One may argue that male female differentiation is chromosomes and yet there are many differentiations there that can confuse the issue. I think for me what would make me female would be the reduction of testosterone and the increase of estrogen in my body. I think the change in those levels would create within me the feeling on completeness and wholeness. The feeling of being right with my total self. Because I feel that being a woman or being a man is feeling, being, and accepting ones self as such no matter what they look like. (Because I will probably never look totally right as a woman and I sure as heck don't feel right as a man). Oh what a cruel trick nature pulled on me!!

Anne Elizabeth

[emma5410]

This thread worries me. You are trying to categorise half the planet or more. I really think you will end up using stereotypes or just generalisations. There have been other threads from people wondering if they can be women and still continue with their old stereotypical masculine interests. The answer is always a resounding yes.

Women are nuturing, caring and loving? Not all of them and often not to each other. Some of the toughest people in my company are female.

Someone else said they would feel a woman if other women accepted them. At work I stand in the toilet talking about clothes and what shade of nail varnish I am wearing. (Sometimes to other people as well :)). Does that mean I am accepted as a woman. I am not sure. I have never asked.
Outside work I walk around and get few if any stares. If I talk to people they gender me correctly and do not hesitate in any way when they do. I think most of them see me as a woman but I cannot be sure and even if they do that does not make me one. A CD who is certain that they are male could get the same response.

I think this is an easy way to drive yourself crazy. Women are human and, as such, are complex and varied. Trying to isolate certain feminine characteristics is close to CD territory. And once identified then what. If you do not possess them, do you not transition? And if you do possess them does it reassure you?

All we can be are ourselves. There is a temptation to try and identify and adopt some female characteristics when we first transition. But is not transition about being able to be ourselves at last? An end to the constant pretending and self monitoring. Maybe transwomen are different from GG. Still women but a different flavour.

[Kimberly Kael]

I feel like i'm drenched in treacle, judgment and wishful thinking all at the same time...

Then it sounds like we've got a reasonable handle on the issue — at least in Western society. After all, that's pretty much a description of what we project on girls aspiring to be women, too.

[Jorja]

It's the ears! Have you ever noticed most (not all) keep their hair long enough to cover the ears. They are small and pointy. That is the difference.

[gonegirl]

Exactly! And when you watch a caring mother interact with their family and friends you realize that "this aspect of femininity" can't be sythesized..

My experience is that being a caring and loving parent isn't exclusively "an aspect of femininity".

Anyone watching my kids and me interact will witness a loving and caring parent who is present, to paraphrase KM, so they may grow and thrive, on a physical, emotional and spiritual level. My kids love me and respect me for who I am, and it shows. Because I am a trans woman I could argue that things are this way because I'm female. I would not do that, however, because it would be paying a huge disservice to the many fathers I have as friends who are active and nurturing parents like me.

[Rianna Humble]

Maybe transwomen are different from GG. Still women but a different flavour.

I vote for a peanut & garlic flavour or maybe just Satay :D

[Ariamythe]

It's the ears! Have you ever noticed most (not all) keep their hair long enough to cover the ears. They are small and pointy. That is the difference.

Is that something that hormones change? Breast development, shifting fat deposits, and evil pointy ears. :)

[MysticLady]

It's the ears! Have you ever noticed most (not all) keep their hair long enough to cover the ears. They are small and pointy. That is the difference.

:heehee: ...........I knew it was something but, I just couldn't put my finger on it


In your opinion what makes a woman a woman.

Is it the ability to give birth?

Is it her mind, emotions, psychology as that which is abstract and without form?

Can a woman be a woman if no one else see's her as such?



My answer would be .....................Yes

[LeaP]

I feel like i'm drenched in treacle, judgment and wishful thinking all at the same time...

When you consider the roughly dozen major physical characteristics (forget the small stuff) that may be used to distinguish the female of the species, and then add in all the subjective characteristics people are bringing up, it's clear to me that we are vastly overloading the term "woman."

You can't use a generic term in a generic way when you want to include what many will regard as exceptions. Put another way, what difference does it make what any one of us think the word means when we are already acknowledging those who will disagree right in this thread ... perhaps in large numbers?

If you want to use "woman" as a true, generic term and NOT as shorthand (e.g., in places such as this in which the usual exceptions will be granted), then I believe it can only refer to a grown, cissexual female (and even here we're in trouble with "grown"). Otherwise, give me adjectives.

[Kathryn Martin]

Adjectives, descriptions not words... qualities and inequalities.... flavors and tastes.... possibilities not certainties...

[LeaP]

OK, then, back to the OP ...

Kelly's post started with a long rhetorical preface in list form.

That was followed by a paragraph from a strictly biological perspective.

It was concluded by a statement that before you could answer the topic question, you had to be specific about what you are trying to define.

Put differently, Kelly provided a description of the breadth of the possible definitional scope via the rhetorical questions, one view of how the scope may be minimally bounded, then the concluding statement about needing to bound the question.

I answered by providing the boundaries (semantics of generic terms) and an answer that fit them (cissexuality basis), as well as why I thought that answer appropriate (acceptance).

So, Kathryn, taking your response as an objection to my response, your response is descriptive, connotes qualities and inequalities, describes only one major ingredient (or flavor) and is by no means a certainty. Although I like the generality you provide (for that it what it is), as you did not provide the bounds the OP requires, you have neither answered the question nor apparently satisfied your own criteria.

[ReineD]

Yes, I believe that gender identity is validly separate from sexual characteristics. The trouble is that most people believe in the gender binary and feel they need to identify as either men or women, since it is recognized that most people do fit into the either/or. But, since time began in most cultures, people knew nothing about Intersex; I believe that intersex affects more than just the genitals and reproductive organs.

It's important to remember there are people who have a distinct combination of both gendered characteristics and who choose to honor all of them, I believe increasingly so in a world that is beginning to recognize the non-binary nature of gender.

Also there are those whose sexual characteristics are diametrically opposed to their gender identity.

And then there are non-TS folks whose feel-good desires are so powerful as to be confused with feeling feminine, especially in a society where visual cues are important predictors of internal landscapes.

[melissaK]

I love all the serious commentary. . . this class has paid attention. I think we'll pass the quiz. (Not sure I'll pass the semester exam though . . . )

and @ Jorga, you mean :::gasp::: Spock is a woman!!!??? Vulcan is home to a race of Amazons???? No wonder Wonderwoman's ears never show!!

[KellyJameson]

I have to say I'm very proud of everyone who took the time to answer because I suspect the question was as painful for some to read as it was for me to post.

That question probably sums up best my life long obsession to answer the question "Who am I" as my gender.

Transexuals and Transman are unique in that we swing from one physical state to another and this would be true even for those who do not get GRS because outside of sexual relations they are living through a body that allows them to present "naturally" for them.

In my opinion the binary becomes important when you have a fractured relationship with your body not only as how it represents you to others but through "movement" and "expression of self"

I never stopped moving as was natural to me and I never stopped expressing myself as was natural to me.

I lived naturally as a woman in a unnatural state that people found unnatural and this goes beyond social conventions to a unique form of emotional energy that should not have been in me because I was born with a penis.

This emotional energy was opposite the emotional energy someone with a penis is usually born with so you stand contrary to your body and society as "everyone else"

This is the misalignment and it may affect sex but it goes way beyond sex.

In my opinion it is this energy that drives transitioning because you cannot live "naturally" until you transition so that you align not only with and through your body but with the expectations of people regardless of culture or time.

This emotional energy is your essence and is found at your very core and you feel it in most women to some degree but rarely in men to any significant degree. It is the feminine theme no matter how masculine a woman is.

This energy is why you feel different from others and why as a child you relate to boys and girls differently than cisgenders do.

When we present a true face to the world this presentation feels natural because we are no longer making war on ourselves to conform to the expectations of others.

Our essence is living truly so we are no longer bending ourselves into what we are not.

Transitioning is a unbending of what as been mangled and bent "IF" there is no self deception involved.

When I think of the emotional experience of transitioning I think of words such as "allowing" "of not resisting" of "surrendering to ".

I personally never experienced it as a "want" but more of a letting go of resistance and allowing the self to emerge.

Thank you again everyone for the maturity and constraint you have shown.

[DebbieL]

These are questions that are almost as old as civilization itself. Even in ancient India, some of the oldest writings ask similar questions. Even then, there was the spectrum of masculine and feminine, including those who seemed to cross-over. Even then, there were the Hijra, transgender men who looked and acted like women, usually castrating themselves (being castrated by other hijra).

Many cultures associate transgender behavior with "old souls" or "twin spirit" people. There are even indications of such issues dating back to the second oldest profession (theater or acting).

Transgender behavior has been part of civilization for as long as there has been civilization. Prior to that, the male hunters killed game and brought home meat, the women gathered. The men would share their meat with the women, and men who did not bring back game didn't procreate. But at some point, boys, probably boys who had been injured or were physically limited, began gathering with the women. They would not have tried to compete with the men, but would have procreated when the hunters were away. These early gatherers probably took the time and effort to learn the medicinal properties of the various plants and herbs, and used them to their advantage. They probably also learned patterns and helped with cultivation. They may have also helped domesticate animals, since they were not fit enough to hunt.

We know the biological markers of transgender males, especially transsexuals. We know that many have markers in skeleton and brain structure that are more female than male, this includes such things as size of the ring finger vs size of index finger, size of hip bones, composition of brain, and even genetic markers.

Transsexuals often exhibit their transsexual nature even before they can talk. When put near other boys, the natural thing for boys is to posture, to push each other, to establish territory. A transgender male won't push back or retaliate, often to the point where the other boys have taken every toy they try to play with, simply because it's easy and the TG boy doesn't fight for his toy.

Later, the boy will tend to be less interested in "rough housing", and will be more interesting in fine motor games like coloring, looking at picture books, drawing, or even listening to or playing music. There may even be physical limitations such as asthma, allergies, diabetes, or other health concerns. The child may choose to cross-dress, and may prefer playing with other girls rather than playing with boys. It's possible, if you observe a kindergarten or first grade class, to see roughly 1 in 5 boys who will exhibit transgender behavior.

Most cultures begin to apply social pressure to force gender conformity. Boys are forced to play with other boys, and are separated from the girls, for the protection of the girls, who are not as violent. The problems start when boys who are more transgendered are unable to adapt to the play of the other boys. These are usually the boys who are the last to be chosen for teams, often even told not to play, or given roles that keep them out of the action. These boys are often attacked, being hurt physically, sometimes being seriously injured. Other boys start to experience more frequent illness.

Unfortunately, many transsexuals never adapt and do not get help with transition. An unusually high number of them become suicidal. The estimate is that 75% of all transsexuals will try to commit suicide and nearly 1/2 of all transsexuals will not survive to their 30th birthday. They may die in accidents, suicide attempts, accidental overdose, or driving accidents. Police have only recently begun to investigate suicides - looking for indications of bullying, harassment, or cyber-bullying. Often, the personal computer of a transsexual tells the story, their most secret thought being left behind, along with their feelings of frustration and fear, their inability to tell parents, friends, or trusted advisers, because they feel they can trust no one with their secrets.

Those who do survive often have early deaths of heart attacks or strokes if they don't get help.

Some go deeper into "stealth", trying even harder to maintain their masculine illusion, but knowing it's all a lie. Others finally come out, even though it means a form of "death", including losing family, friends, wives, children, jobs, churches, and much more. Often, they will disappear completely, moving away, then finding a place where they can transition. Sometimes, the only trail left behind is their legal name change.

For those who actually complete the transition, nearly all report that they are happier, healthier, more productive, more satisfied with their lives, and they find relationships where they find friendships, love, and community in their transformed state. Some even try to keep their past as males a secret, even fabricating a past as a woman. Others, especially those who transition when they are older, realize they can't be effective in such deceptions, and seek to find those who can accept them as they truly are.

Scientists and researchers have found that the genetics has much less to do with one's sexual identity than hormones. More importantly, it's the prenatal hormone levels, and the body's ability to process those hormones that impacts a person's gender. We now know that many transsexuals have a genetic marker that prevents their bodies from processing the testosterone their bodies produce during the first 3 months of pregnancy, others produce very little testosterone, and others have maternal issues such as diet, drinks, drugs, and stress that can cause her body to flush out testosterone. This may have been a natural reaction when a woman's country was invaded by a new army. An alpha male would be killed while young, but a transgendered male might have a better chance of surviving the occupation without being killed for rebellion. It was found that there was a much higher number of transgender and homosexual males among the survivors of the Nazi concentration camps as well as those who had been most oppressed in Nazi Europe.

The primary genitalia, especially the penis, requires the least amount of testosterone to produce, and could even be formed later in gestation. Some transgender males are born with ONLY the penis, the testes are still up inside the trunk of the body, and don't drop down until early in puberty. In some cases, surgery is required. I remember having to submit to a mandatory physical exam by a doctor working for the public schools, to confirm that my testes had actually dropped by the time I had started 7th grade. It was a bit embarrassing, especially when he observed how small I was. He even asked if I was able to use a urinal.

In many cultures, transsexualism is more accepted.

In the United States, the forced socialization with other boys, combined with the brutality, often leads transsexual males to associate other boys and men with pain and suffering. This often leads them to have very little attraction to men. Often, it is only AFTER they have begun to transition and have real breasts and start getting treated like women that they are even able to think of men as anything other than a potential threat. Some can eventually reach the point where they find some men physically attractive. Others form an attraction to women as children that continues as they grow, and even after transition, they are attracted to women. Some therapists refuse to recommend transition for MtFs who are attracted to women - which is really sad.

Keep in mind that handling of transsexuals in the United States has shifted radically in the last 50 or so years. When I was 5 and told my mother I wanted to be a girl, she told her therapist about my declarations. He warned her that I should not be encouraged because the "treatment" for transsexualism was EST (shock) and Lobotomy. Many transsexuals were turned into human vegetables, barely able to feed themselves. In 2011, the American Psychology Association decided it was UNETHICAL to try and tell a transsexual NOT to transition. A year later, the American Psychiatric Association decided the same thing. In 2013, the American Medical Association declared that insurance companies should cover HRT and SRS, and obstructing such therapy was unethical.

Sadly, even today, finding an endocrinologist who will help a transsexual transition with HRT is still extremely difficult to find, and most don't take insurance because so many plans won't even cover the monitoring of the HRT. Many transsexuals still have to turn to the internet or foreign suppliers, even when they can get the therapist letter and are living as women.

We know that even FtM transsexuals have the ability to bear children as women. We know that males who don't undergo chemical castration can still produce viable sperm. So at the most organic level, these are the core definers. However, procreation has almost nothing to do with sexual identity. There are women who bear children and can be as masculine as any man, and men who have sired one or more children before making their transition to female state.

The most difficult time for a transsexual is the transition period, the time of their lives when they are forced to live in their birth gender for reasons of employment or family, yet are otherwise living in their TRUE gender at nearly all other times. This can be even more difficult for those who transition later in life, when their hair has thinned and they have secondary sexual markers that are harder to suppress. Often the most cruel trick of nature is the boy who is transsexual until he reaches late puberty - then gets flooded with so much testosterone that he ends up with a dark thick beard, lots of dark body hair, and a deep bass singing voice. For these pour souls, the feeling is that their bodies have betrayed them, that God has betrayed them, and that they can NEVER be comfortable in their own bodies. Many such men become almost obsessively unhealthy, often working too hard, driving themselves, eating poorly, drinking heavily, becoming obese, and essentially committing suicide on the installment plan. The stress of the gender conflict often leads to mental health issues ranging from depression or bipolar disorder to migraine headaches. The conflicted TS may self-medicate using OTC or recreational drugs, or may turn to prescription drugs. They often suffer from high blood pressure, heart problems, and weight problems as well as high triglycerides, high LDL cholesterol, and type II diabetes. They may not even care. Some even hope they will die sooner than later.

Being a 57 year old transsexual is almost the same odds as being 33 years clean and sober - about 4 billion to one.

What AM I? I STILL struggle with that. I only know that when I'm Debbie, I'm a happier AND healthier human being.

What else really matters?

[gonegirl]

When I think of the emotional experience of transitioning I think of words such as "allowing" "of not resisting" of "surrendering to ".

I personally never experienced it as a "want" but more of a letting go of resistance and allowing the self to emerge.

Not trying to derail your main message Kelly, but those two sentences became my realization a few months ago. It coincided with testosterone being eradicated from my body, when I understood that this is how I should have felt my entire life. I had nothing left to resist.

[Angela Campbell]

I always thought it was sugar and spice and everything nice!

So much for the maturity!

[Pink Person]

I howled when I read that a woman is what her culture defines her to be. Since human cultures are unanimously dominated by men, this seems to be a very odd answer to the question. A brief survey of cultural definitions of women, past and present, ought to be very disturbing to most people.

I would define a woman as an adult feminine and/or female person. I don't want to unpack this definition for you. However, I will suggest that any definition that does not allow for sex or gender focus, and sex and gender variation, is a false one.

[Lisa Gerrie]

Since human cultures are unanimously dominated by men

I take it you have never been married.

[Pink Person]

Case closed. Mich's wife rules the world.

[Lisa Gerrie]

Not any more. I am a liberated woman, so to speak.

[Judith96a]

In your opinion what makes a woman a woman.

I honestly do not know! Why? Because for every potential "defining characteristic", or group thereof, I either know, or can think of, at least one individual who doesn't appear to fit that mould but is, nevertheless, unquestionably a woman!

To paraphrase a previous poster, "I know it when I see / experience it"



Before you know what you are you must know what you are trying to define.
Sorry, I don't agree. (That doesn't mean that I haven't found the discussion to be interesting) I could no more define what makes a man a man than fly to the moon. However, my inability to adequately define manhood or manliness doesn't stop me from knowing beyond all doubt that I am a man - yes a crossdressing man who has a significantly strong female side and who can to some degree act the part of a woman, but when all is said and done still a man. In my view, an open mind is far more useful than any definition.