The steady decline of masculinity, and crossdressing.

[Alice Torn]

Some of us remember the American culture of the 1940's and 1950's. At that time, there was no feminist movement, and the male energy was at its peak. Radio, television, movies, comics, all had the man riding high! I believe, that tue femininity was also pretty high, then, too, looking at the fashions women wore. But, something happened in the mid 1960's, and has continued to plow forward. The decline of men. The decline of respect for men, and the male energy. Poet Robert Bly hit on this in the 1990's. The feminist movement has been relentless, also. I am wondering if all this attack on maleness, has contributed to any of you's crossdressing. I believe there are cultural influences, such as, the majority of women wearing pants , the vast majority of the time, and the unmistakable declint of masculinity, since the 1960's. I think i would have dressed anyway, I think it may have had a small influence, but definitely it is there.

[Alice B]

Not at all

[Mink]

i don't think that has too much influence over why i dress... if anything it seems like an issue that a close-minded person would point out saying "look how we've lost our ways! our kids are so confused they're crossdressing! our very maleness is threatened!"

which isn't totally new...

david bowie ... don't know if yr a boy or a girl

Rebel Rebel!

[kimdl93]

Not in the least. And I pull submit that women achieving fair and at least somewhat more equitable status has not eroded males. What brings men down are their fixation with controlling others, prejudices, and apparently an unwillingness to learn

[Alice Torn]

Men have done untold evils, that contributed to it all, as far as helping spur the women to revolt. There is no doubt, if all men had real gentlemen, rather than little tyrants, the world would be better. However, today, there are far more women in college, than men, far more in grad school, and single women outearn single men. As far as crossdressing, i think a lot of us identified more with our mothers, than our fathers. My dad was trannical over my mom. The male energy was way over the top controlling. I rejected that, and that may have something to do with me dressing, and i also have nice legs, like my mom did!

[mariehart]

No, men have been crossdressing for as long there have bee differences in the way men and women dress. I also don't buy the so called decline of masculinity. Attitudes like that I believe are sometimes born of misogyny. Some men resent the fact that women are now considered equals. Apparently their masculinity is such a delicate flower that they can't cope with women being allowed to do 'man's' work and also that men are expected to be involved in looking after their children rather than downing beers at the nearest bar.

The only difference between now and the fifties is that both sexes were repressed by the society they lived in and expected to act contrary to their actual desires.

People are freer now than they ever were.

[LilSissyStevie]

The drive towards emasculation comes from within. There's nobody "out there" making us wear a dress. The fact that you can only think of masculinity in negative terms should give you some insight into why you might not want to be that.

[Lori Kurtz]

I don't think there is any decline in masculinity. There certainly is a decline in men's ability to exercise unwarranted power over women, thanks to the rise of feminism. but I don't think that represents any diminution of real masculinity. Women having equal right does not diminish men in any way, except insofar as men previously enjoyed power and privilege that they weren't really entitled to. It's a better world that we live in today, and still getting better. As for how the changing status of the sexes regarding power and autonomy relates to CDing, I can only speak for myself; for me, I can see no relationship or influence there, one way or the other.

[Alice Torn]

Equal in value, yes, but, exactly the same. Never. I dress partly because i want to set an example of classy look women used to have a lot more of. Get mad and let me have it, if you want.

[Asche]

I haven't noticed any decline in "masculinity" in my half-century or so of watching things. Nor any decline in men or their power in the world. It's still very much "a man's world."

What I have noticed is that people's ideas of what it means to be a man have been evolving faster than people (esp. men) are comfortable with. Of course, that's been happening for at least 150 years (and probably a lot longer), to judge by all the hand-wringing essays and articles decrying the decline of manliness.

I don't think it is caused by feminism or changes in women's roles. I think it's caused by much bigger changes. The world is a very different place from what it was 50 years ago, and society as a whole has changed a lot. Most of the changes usually blamed on feminism, even changing women's roles, have been caused more by economic and technological changes, not social movements like feminism.

Personally, I think that masculinity itself is obsolete (and good riddance), but I see no sign that any significant number of men or women agree with me. Virtually everyone is busy trying to rework and redefine masculinity so male humans can continue to survive in our ever-changing human world while still holding on to something they can call "manhood."

What does this have to do with cross-dressing?

As long as 1/2 the population of the world is still trying to define itself by its adherence to some arbitrary idea of "what men are," you're going to have a lot of men repressing large chunks of their nature and in the secret places in their heart wishing for some vacation from having to be "masculine" 24/7. (But most won't have the guts to actually take that vacation.) Orthodox crossdressing (=what most CDers here do) is one such vacation.

[carhill2mn]

My CDing began in the '40's and I loved the women's fashions of the '50's. I particularily loved seeing women beautifully dressed whenever they were in public. I do realize that the women of this time frame were extremely limited in their options and often treated as second-class citizens.

There have been pluses and minuses as a a result of the femininist movement. Males were also freed from their strict dress codes. Women had more options. IMHO, the "everything can be casual" is more of a sad state of affairs especially, for us CD/s.

[audreyinalbany]

I personally don't think that women achieving (or rather working towards achieving) social equality with men makes them any less feminine, any more than wearing slacks or jeans instead of "June Cleaver" dresses does. I don't see any 'decline' in masculinity or femininity; social customs change over time.

[Deedee Skyblue]

The drive towards emasculation comes from within.

Crossdressing is not a 'drive towards emasculation' for all of us. It may be why you self identify as a sissy, but don't assume that we all feel that way.

Deedee

[LilSissyStevie]

So dressing up like a girl isn't emasculating? LOL! At least I'm not delusional.

[Sister Rachel]

Not really sure what my answers are yet, but just have to say what an excellent, thought provoking thread .. :) Makes me quite proud to be a member of this forum. :)

[Michelle789]

I like this question. I think our CDing comes from underlying femininity to some significant degree. Here's a few thoughts and questions.

* Why has cross-dressing has existed since the beginning of time, even during times when male energy was supposedly respected more than today? Could it be these men have a feminine side that needs to be expressed, or are even completely female on the inside?

* Why is it that most men today don't cross-dress? We're still like a 2% to 5% , and maybe 10% minority. Why don't our brothers, who grew up under similar conditions to us, like to cross-dress or have gender issues? Could our underlying femininity ultimately cause our desire to CD?

* Amongst my male friends, I have noticed that several insist the USA is still male dominant even today. I have a couple of male friends who believe the world has always been female dominant, could those guys perhaps have underlying gender issues, while the guys who believe the world is still male dominant today are perfectly content being men?

All these points suggest ultimately our underlying femininity is what causes us to cross-dress regardless of what the times are like.

[Vickie_CDTV]

I don't know if it has anything to do with crossdressing, but yes there is a real cultural shift and I believe males and masculinity are being devalued. Heck, even in the trans community, I feel like I have to apologize for still identifying as a male, as if it is some evil or sinister thing. (I wonder how F2Ms feel about that.)

[Leona]

I don't see a link. There may be a causal link to more mtf crossdressers being open about it as it becomes more socially acceptable to be a woman....

I disagree with the premise, however. Maleness is not under attack. It is male privilege that is under attack, and rightfully so. It's time to let the other half of the population in on how the world is run.

[sheilagirl]

Right On, Alice! So very true in my case too except my Father is a GOOD guy and rarely lorded over my mother. However, my Mother is ELEGANT in word and deed and that is what I admire most. By letting me observe her, she taught me how to properly dress. Funny, I don't remember EVER watching my Dad get dressed. I guess it just happens that way.
Thanks,
Sheila
Men have done untold evils, that contributed to it all, as far as helping spur the women to revolt. There is no doubt, if all men had real gentlemen, rather than little tyrants, the world would be better. However, today, there are far more women in college, than men, far more in grad school, and single women outearn single men. As far as crossdressing, i think a lot of us identified more with our mothers, than our fathers. My dad was trannical over my mom. The male energy was way over the top controlling. I rejected that, and that may have something to do with me dressing, and i also have nice legs, like my mom did!

[Badtranny]

Typical conservative rant about being victimized by our "feminist culture".

It's the damn feminazis that made me do it!

The overwhelming majority of men do NOT cross-dress and there is also no shortage of seriously masculine men. I run into Alpha males every day in my line of work. (construction)
They are everywhere and they are yummy.

[Alice Torn]

Thanks to everyone who has commented! I knew there would be some strong feelings of rejection to what i addressed, but i was surprised at some who see what i see, and did not attack what i wrote.

[Lorileah]

:evilbegon bah. Things change, all the 40's and 50's gender dichotomy was nothing more than physically stronger sex keeping another down. Look at what they wore, things to tantalize and make sure that women didn't do things. While I find the look sexy I also see the mental subjugation.

Melissa said it, there is no lack of masculine ,ales out there. There are also a lot more masculine females.

[Melissa Rose]

Absolutely not and a double hell no! IMHO the premises of the OP is highly flawed. The raising of a discriminated or repressed group does not require the lowering of the group in power. It is not like a teeter-totter where if one side goes up the other has to go down. Women rightfully gaining equal opportunity and rights in employment, education, fashion choices, etc. (which is not the the same as equal outcome) is not gained at the expense of masculinity. That is essentially the same as saying gay and lesbian rights are obtained with a corresponding decline in heterosexuality. What about the gains in transgender rights? Does that reduce the non-transgenderness of the non-transgendered community? It is not a fixed sum situation.

I do not miss or have any desire to go back to the times when women were "kept in their place", existed to serve their husbands, treated as second class citizens or property, or legally raped by their husbands (which appallingly was not made illegal in every US state until the late 70s). Back to the days of being barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen? No !#%$& way. This is 2013 and not 1943. While I can appreciate not wanting to lose male privilege, but that privilege comes at the expense of women. It is really about the loss of power and control over women and the creation of a more level playing field. More women in the work force, and not only in women's jobs, and in higher education is about equality and not the decline of masculinity.

[Beverley Sims]

If I over think this.........

Is it a bad thing? :)

[GaleWarning]

Short answer ... the first and second world wars led to an extreme shortage of men who were left home to do what had previously been labelled as "Men's Work". The women had to muck in and take over. They had to don "Men's Wear" rather than their restrictive corsets and frilly, dainty clothes. They found they enjoyed both doing the work and wearing the non-restrictive gear.

Men came back from the war, war weary and demoralised. Too many of them drank heavily and were no longer the confident, competent people they were before going to the battle front.

Things progressed from there.

And the reason I love to crossdress is simply because I am very tactile and LOVE wearing women's underwear and heels.
The rest, I can take or leave.

[Janice An]

I wanted to wear girls things at a very young age.
Long before understanding any of this.

[Kate Simmons]

I'm not sure that there is a "decline" per se of manhood Alice but sometimes men need to reassured of who they are. That's what a good woman is for. Whether it is an actual physical woman or one we ourselves create(in ourselves). :battingeyelashes::)

[Marcelle]

Hi Alice,

IMHO I believe you are confusing societal norms with behavior. Terms like femininity, masculinity are societal constructs based on normative requirements. Men act one way, women act another. What we are seeing in today's society is not an erosion of either but a redefinition of those terms. Women have made the leap into what has been considered stereotypical masculine roles as they should because they represent 50% of the population. On the other hand it does not make them less female (gender) in expression or look.

In the Canadian military we introduced women into the Combat Arms (front line soldiers) in the late 80s. There was a huge uproar from various groups both within and outside the military (women are not strong enough to engage in combat, men will feel obligated to protect women in combat putting their own life at risk, people are ready to have mothers and daughters come home in body bags) yata, yata, yata. It is all BS. Some the best soldiers I have worked with both in garrison and in knock down, metal hits the meat combat are women. I would risk my life to save a brother soldier as easy as I would a sister soldier as I know they would for me and please is anybody ready for anyone coming home in a body bag, brother, sister, daughter, son, husband or wife). Today, we don't even bat an eye at women in combat roles because it is what it is . . . that is societal evolution.

On the other hand men have made leaps into what would be considered the typical feminine roles at a less rapid pace. Most likely has something to do with giving up Alpha status. However, I know lots of stay at home dads whose wives are the bread winners. They stay at home, clean the house, cook and take care of the children while the wife works. It is not a big issue with them and as time goes on more women aspire to higher paying jobs, child care costs rise, we will most likely see more men staying at home . . . once again societal evolution.

When it comes to CDing, I don't thing it has anything to do with the erosion of masculinity. I liked to do this (as someone else posted) long before I even knew what masculinity meant. Is the world ready for guys buying dresses and panties, not yet but like everything else, it will normalize once we evolve as a species and learn to accept differences in people.

Hugs

Isha

[Rosie Moonlight]

We're all more sexually liberated than our parent's genration. I first wore dresses in public through going to parties with my friends, all getting wasted on 'the substance that makes you effeminate that dare not speak it's name', and swapping clothes with the girls who were up for that sort of thing. I doubt my Dad ever did that. Now I see the Gentlemen slightly younger than me, all the hipsters with ladies blouses and tight trousers, and think good on em'. Let's encourage it- let the females try running things for a bit. When they finally do, we'll be given special status ;)

[daarleane]

Is masculinity declining? I don't know since I don't really understand what it is. Is it masculine to build bridges, buildings or is it masculine to design the bridges and buildings? Women today are doing both, they are operating some of the largest equipment built. Does that make them less feminine? We tend to get hung up on labels as a society, everyone has to fit into a box so we can know exactly what to expect of them. One thing that I am sure of though is that as more women enter the workplace that there are only so many jobs out there. So if you want one of them you had better prepare for it. Masculinity and femininity are just terms we made up and as time goes on their meaning changes. So what does this have to do with crossdressing? Our clothes are a reflection of our role in society. What we wear is an attempt to express our view of that role in our own individual way. Just my two cents worth ( adjusted for inflation).

[ArleneRaquel]

My dressing enfemme started in the mid 1950's way before any of these movements made an appearence on the American scene. No influence on me at all.

[Dianne S]

I don't think "masculinity" is declining. I think what may be declining is a stereotyped, narrow view of what "masculinity" is.

[Amanda M]

I don't believe that masculinity is declining. Misogyny and privilege are.The ability to adopt problem solving scenarios that do not involve violence is increasing, as is the ability of men to empathize. Genetically and socially, the Alpha male will always be with us and will always seek to dominate, but I suggest the process by which he does it will change too.

As a male, there are couple of things that really disgust me - one is the assumption on the part of many women that a man is only interested in getting into their pants, and another is the assumption on the part of many men that that is the way it should be!

Thank good ness women are different. If they were the same as men, who would I want to emulate?

[Melissa Rose]

....what may be declining is a stereotyped, narrow view of what "masculinity" is.

And a broadening view of what "femininity" is. Both are welcome (speaking for myself) and long over due.

Cross dressing has been around way before the start for the "decline of masculinity", thus there is no correlation and definitely no cause and effect.

There is a quote that goes "Well behaved women rarely make history". If sitting quietly and looking pretty, being demure and being subservient is part of being well behaved, I would much rather be a badly behaving girl.

[suchacutie]

Personally, knowing that Tina existed has allowed me to understand those parts of me that are male and not to dilute them with the femininity that Tina is (unless I choose to). Being able to let Tina have a life of her own is really very freeing to my male self.

I do think the social change in the last 50 years has made a difference, however. It seems to me that understanding and acceptance of those who are transgendered/transexual has risen and continues to do so. Clearly, I hope that continues!

[Veronica27]

I have been rather upset reading the number of misandrous comments on this thread. There are a lot of basic biological differences between male and female, and survival of humanity throughout history has required that the roles and responsibilities assigned to each sex reflect the reality of those differences. Human beings are social creatures, and as such have organized their lives and affairs around various societal structures. One of the most important of these was the family which assured stability for the raising of each generation. Every organization requires someone to be the head of the organization, and logic dictated that it be the male, whose responsibilities revolved around connectivity between the family and the outside world, whereas the female responsibilities were primarily within the family unit. Thus the custom of the family bearing the male surname has nothing to do with male dominance or power, but with reality as it existed at the time.

As civilizations evolved, life has changed in many ways, and by the mid 19th century, women were hardly the oppressed sex, despite being primarily in the home. Contrast their life with that of most men of the period who worked long hours under terrible conditions to bring home a pay that barely fed the family. They were compelled to fight the wars regardless of their beliefs about it. Yes, it was men who started the wars, but in our enlightened modern era where women are much more involved in the political process and governing, wars still exist and likely will even in a female dominated world. The influence on decision making for the family has rested with the female sex more than the male for a great many generations now, and many people of all ages will tell you that it was their mother who was "the boss" and not their father, despite all the rhetoric about masculine privilege.

By the mid 20th century, the 40's and 50's mentioned in the opening post, technology was beginning to overcome the conditions that necessitated some of the distinctions between the male and female roles. By this time, female dominance of the family reached its zenith, while the typical male responsibilities were becoming a bit more relaxed. There was a little more time for male participation in household responsibility and the so-called feminist movement began to feed on this by the 1960's.

I don't consider that female fashions of that era or necessarily any prior era, were the result of male dominance and control. Most men have always preferred to see their women undressed rather than dressed if the truth be known. Women's clothing has never been very high on the priorities of most men. They want to look at a woman regardless of what she is wearing or not wearing. Male clothing was historically just as uncomfortable as female clothing, but both sexes wore what they did because it was the fashion of the day. Why do men wear neckties and suit jackets and stiff shoes and shirt collars? Women dressed the way they did because that was the way women dressed.

I don't think that crossdressing has anything to do with the rise or fall of either masculinity or femininity in our culture, because they are such arbitrary terms. Crossdressing can be the result of many things, but they are internal rather than external. We have a brain a mind and a soul. Whether we want to be a woman, or simply look like one occasionally or are just curious about the strange world in which the opposite sex lives, has little to do with the stage of human evolution. The real driving force is simply the fact that women and men are different. The more we decrease those differences by dressing alike, the less likelihood of crossdressing.

Veronica

[Frédérique]

But, something happened in the mid 1960's, and has continued to plow forward. The decline of men. The decline of respect for men, and the male energy. Poet Robert Bly hit on this in the 1990's. The feminist movement has been relentless, also. I am wondering if all this attack on maleness, has contributed to any of you's crossdressing. I believe there are cultural influences, such as, the majority of women wearing pants , the vast majority of the time, and the unmistakable declint of masculinity, since the 1960's. I think i would have dressed anyway, I think it may have had a small influence, but definitely it is there.

I glean a lot of insight into the current state of affairs from TV, so my perceptions are not perfect by any means, but I detect a certain backsliding in terms of masculinity. I mean males seem to be more male than they’ve ever been, and females seem to be more female. When I began to dress, this gender (or sexual) polarity was less obvious, and, just maybe, a boy could wear a girl’s dress. Back then I was traveling in the wake of these 60’s and 70’s (and 80’s) cultural influences that you’re talking about. I didn’t feel a lot of resistance back then, but I still knew that this (crossdressing) was a difficult thing for many people to swallow…

Perhaps the children of Boomers went so far with their cultural relaxation that a backlash was inevitable. If anything, boys are more boyish and girls are seemingly more girlish these days, or was there ever any change at all? Ever since 9/11/2001, masculinity has been championed and reinforced, often with drastic consequences. Even women are expected to be masculine these days, and many buy into it repeatedly. However, I get the feeling that traditional gender roles are alive and well, probably not subject to change – my immersion into the American Heartland has made me think so. It’s more difficult now for a MtF crossdresser like me to dress as I please, but it’s never been easy…

Like you, I probably would have begun crossdressing under any circumstances…:idontknow:

[LilSissyStevie]

If anything, boys are more boyish and girls are seemingly more girlish these days...

Jack Molay had an interesting blog post (http://www.crossdreamers.com/2013/09/gender-identity-in-barbie-land-case-of.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+autogynephiliac+%28Crossdream ers%3A+Confessions+of+an+Autogynephiliac%29) about this phenomenon in his Crossdreamers blog recently. It seems that in his native Norway, as gender equality becomes more of a reality, gender expression becomes more extreme. Also, looking at the Masculinity Index table, Japan is the second most masculine country and Norway is the second most feminine country, yet my impression is that the rates of CDing is not very different between those two countries. If anything there is more in "masculine" Japan.

[Carlene]

A worthwhile read, "The End of Men" and the rise of women. I think the answer to the question asked by the OP is very complicated. We are certainly products of our times, thus, cultural shifts clearly influence our behaviours to some extent. IMHO

[MatildaJ.]

what may be declining is a stereotyped, narrow view of what "masculinity" is.


And a broadening view of what "femininity" is...There is a quote that goes "Well behaved women rarely make history". If sitting quietly and looking pretty, being demure and being subservient is part of being well behaved, I would much rather be a badly behaving girl.

Hear hear! Agreed on all counts.

[Alice Torn]

I must say, that i have to duck, for all the arrows coming at me, or rockets! at a thrift store, back about 12 years ago, i found two very interesting books. One was written back in 1957!! The name of the book, is "The Decline of the American Male." I forgot the author's name, but, he was head of "Look" magazine at the time. The book shows how women were strongly becoming the head of the house, and how men were like, their slaves. The materialistic demands, that modern women were putting on hubby, constantly. A wise man, said "there is nothing new under the sun." The second book, which i have packed in a box somewhere, from moving so often, is "The Coming Matriarchy" . It showed how women really have more and more power. Today, over 60% of university students, are girls! I have heard this from many sources. There is also a recent book, by a WOMAN, which my senior mind forgot the title of, abvout how many men today, are slackers, have given up trying to be successful, dropping out, not even wanting to work. The yardstick for boys and men have been raised so much, that many say to hell with the hassle, and now, many well educated women are having a hard time finding well educated men. We live an unnatural society today. It is no wonder so many more boys and men are dropping out, or killing themselves. Crossdressing, as Kate says, maybe a desire for a woman's comfort, that some of us cannot find in a GG. At 59, and still single, I have given up finding a mate. The one in the mirror, is all i can come up with, and dresses and looks better than a lot of them, too. Thanks for hearing me out. I better duck, now. More missiles!

[Lorileah]

Moderator note: DO NOT start dissing women in this thread. Your opinion as to if you dress better than any woman is your opinion and not a truth...Got it??? OK next one like that and this thread is bye bye

Alice, I read a book once about interstellar space flight and another about going down a rabbit hole (which may be pertinent to this thread)/ Just because a book is written doesn't make it true. Men giving up? Tell the people who founded Microsoft, Google, Quicken Loans (which now owns a lot of downtown Detroit). Women having a hard time finding educated men? C'mon. BS again (and what does that really mean? We graduate more people from post graduate studies now than ever before). Many men go into the business world, foregoing college, for well paying jobs that don't need a degree. Women now can wait and not become housewives and mothers early on and are able to pursue a degree. You may be confusing having to make a living for the family to not going to higher education.

What you see as a decline in society is in reality an evolution. Just because you think the world should be a lot of Donna Reeds waiting for hubby to come home, doesn't make that the best type of society for the world we now inhabit. Strength has been usurped by technology, the need to have high numbers of children by longer lifespans and better medicine. Men and women can now have a more level playing field in jobs and education. There is no reason in this world for women to be subservient (same thing for men, if you think you are being castrated, look at the knife in your own hand, no one can do that to you, you do it yourself)

Name one advantage of a patriarchal society in the modern world.

[Oilpainter35]

I just love the feel and look of being attired. Write me when you can Alice. I would love to meet again. I have tried writing you , but box is full and my mail gets rejected.

[GaleWarning]

Name one advantage of a patriarchal society in the modern world.

You asked, Lori, and after giving it some thought, I tentatively offer the following, based on social experiences in my home country of NZ.

1. Fewer single parent families.

That is not to diss women, but to comment on the side effects on children's lives, when they have no father figure as a role model.

[Dianne S]

1. Fewer single parent families. That is not to diss women, but to comment on the side effects on children's lives, when they have no father figure as a role model.

I think the jury is still out on what's better for kids: A two-parent family with parents who are unhappy with one another (or worse, abusive) or a single-parent family. I don't think your proffered advantage is clear-cut.

[MatildaJ.]

Fewer single parent families.

But balancing that... a patriarchal society correlates with more violence in the home.

(Oops, didn't see that you'd posted, Dawn.)

What Dawn said.

[Stephanie47]

There is no correlation of my desire to wear women's clothing with anything related to the rise of women or the decline of men. I have no idea why I like to wear women's clothing.

Women are rising because of what women are doing. Women are also not listening to the absolute bullshit that was thrown at them in prior decades. There is a surge of women in science, math and engineering. Women are not content on being nurses. They want to be doctors. What are men and young men doing? Too many boys feel everything will roll right to their feet with no effort on their part. There are still too many segments of our society that feel the women's place is giving birth, raising kids, and staying home. Some of that attitude is cultural or religious.

I'm glad to see the rise of women. My wife, daughter and daughter-in-law all have professional jobs. Each were encouraged by me to get out there and assert themselves. I am encouraging my granddaughter and have already paid for her higher education. Me? I did my part. And, I am at this keyboard in full feminine attire. As soon as I log off I will be making a nice pot of meatballs and spaghetti sauce.

[Vickie_CDTV]

Why is it that work that has been traditionally done by women viewed so lowly by both men and women today? Why is raising kids and keeping a household work that is considered "beneath" anyone, man or woman? A stay at home parent does not contribute as much to society and their work is not as valuable as a scientist or an engineer? Seriously? My mother was a stay at home mom and she never, ever considered what she did as "beneath" her, or felt work she did was not as ever bit as valuable as my father's, and she took as much pride in her work as anyone else did in theirs.

[Tina_gm]

Well, here is what I have to say, and it may not be viewed all that well by many on here but here it goes anyway.

As I see it, there is no decline in masculinity. There may be an increase in guys who do not use physical masculinity and are ok with not being the physical "mans" man. But still there is plenty of testosterone out there.

Women on the other hand have gained a lot of ground in the workforce and general respect in the community. They are now leaders and politicians, board presidents, principals etc etc. With only a small amount of exception, men and women get paid the same for the same job. Funny though because the biggest disparity of all is among actors and actresses, yet hollywood is among the most liberal of communities (if you want to call it that) yet they practice the very opposite of what they supposedly preach. Funny too how they cast out homosexuals and trans people as comic relief at best, and often make them sinister villians.

But to a more important direction of my post, I see soooo much dramatizing and demonizing of past generations. Yet whatever the 40's, 50's or 60's were, they were still more progressive than the generations prior. Women in large numbers DID work during the 40's and 50's. Plenty of secretaries, waitresses, seamstresses nurses.... The Happy days version of the American family was more myth and legend than actual fact. Funny how people demonize what it was, but then go on and say how back in that day our family was not wealthy and mom had to work and yadda yadda....

There were lots of very good men out there during that time as well. Men who worked hard and then went home and were good to their wives and children. Men weren't just a bunch of alcoholic abusers and cheaters who got away with it cuz that was the way it wuz... I do get sooo tired of this idea. Yes there were cheaters, and yes some women cheated back then as well.

The ONLY thing I see different today, is that there are more, not most men, especially the 30 and under generation that do not take life and its responsibilities as serious as the generations prior have. Those who still do, regardless of age are generally respected by their peers, both male and female. If there is ANYTHING women are guilty of these days, is allowing these men who lack responsibility and are generally completely unmotivated to go on doing so and still giving them attention. Or simply accepting such behavior at all.

As for CDing, that is a different deal altogether. I as a man take personal responsibility very seriously, and I have noticed that in my life, the more motivated I am the better my life seems to go, and the better respected I am. CDing is different because some of us, myself included have more femininity within us, for whatever reason. Those, like me who have a masculine side, be it internal as well as perhaps external, but we carry on as such. We who are CDers have a higher amount of a feminine side and we express it, mostly by dressing. For me, it takes away nothing, does nothing to decrease or decline my masculinity. It is an addition I have to it.

[Lorileah]

You asked, Lori, and after giving it some thought, I tentatively offer the following, based on social experiences in my home country of NZ.

1. Fewer single parent families.

That is not to diss women, but to comment on the side effects on children's lives, when they have no father figure as a role model.

Interesting that that is the only thing positive anyone can come up with on a patriarchal society. And then it is questionable (and I understand that Gale did provide the caveat about in NZ) because has anyone looked at a matriarchal society to see if there are fewer two parent households? One thing about a matriarchal society is you ALWAYS know who your mother is. The father???? And depending on the local and the social standing here in the US, having a two adult child rearing unit household is unusual. Note I didn't say parent,that would infer that the two were the gamete donors for he children.

The ideal would be where both the male and the female had equal standing (is there a word for that?).

In nature, would one say that the male lion is lazy and unmotivated? That is a matriarchal society for sure, where the lionesses control the pride and the male pretty much gets the benefits right up to the time the pride needs defense. He still has a role and you don't see him taking his toys and going home because he isn't "manly" enough. :)

[julia marie]

I don't see any "decline" in men, but I'm happy to see women emerge into roles that they deserve. Crossdressing has nothing to with any of it. If I could have worn girl clothes 50 years ago I would have (although I did sneak a few of my sisters things when nobody was looking).

[CynthiaD]

I live in Texas, and I guess the "decline in masculinity" hasn't gotten here yet. :) But seriously, I never could understand why women were treated so differently from men. Why shouldn't a person's ability and inclinations be the determining factor in how they live their lives? I feel fortunate to have been in a profession (computer programming) that was in such high demand that nobody cared about anything but your ability. If you could get a computer to do what your boss wanted it to do, you were hired. Nothing else mattered.

[Marie-Elise]

I just read this book called Re-Dressing (http://www.amazon.com/Re-Dressing-Americas-Frontier-Past-Peter/dp/0520270622/ref=tmm_hrd_title_0). It is about how the manly man myth of America's West is just that: a myth. It's fascinating in that the author researched and found many documented cases of M2F and F2M crossdressers in the old West. Many of them lived normal lives integrated into the rest of society out there while dressed and acknowledged as the gender they presented as. In some cases, they were only found out to be crossdressers or transgender when they died. It's a good book. Buy the Kindle edition since it is so much less expensive than the hardcover. Or wait for the paperback.

[Frédérique]

Also, looking at the Masculinity Index table, Japan is the second most masculine country and Norway is the second most feminine country, yet my impression is that the rates of CDing is not very different between those two countries. If anything there is more in "masculine" Japan.

Which is strange, because so much gender-bending is reflected in anime and manga. Perhaps this overly masculine country is advancing masked, and the people with imagination (the artists) are showing everyone’s true feelings. Not to get off topic, but, if it wasn’t for Japan I’d have precious little in the way of “happy” MtF crossdressing inspiration…
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