Is support linked to looks, or something else?

[Amy A]

Hi all,

Someone said something to me recently that I found sad but at the same time I wasn't sure how valid a comment it was. Basically, it was put to me that it was easier to support me in my decision to transition because I'm small and thin, whereas if it had been my taller, broader brother, or if I had been a massive rugby player, they would've had a harder time being positive about my future and subsequently offering encouragement. Now I'm no oil painting, and nobody compliments me on my looks as a man, I'm just lucky in my size and lack of masculinity.

We all know this world is obsessed with looks often to the detriment of society, but I find it disappointing to think that people might not be getting the support they need based on how they look. It's also a bit disturbing to think that some people who have been good to me might not have been had I looked different.

Do you think there's any truth to this?

PS I'm genuinely interested and not trying to provoke arguments :)

[Frances]

Yes, it's been my experience as well.

[robindee36]

Sounds like you are blessed with a physique that might make your transition easier. I know some very tall, broad shouldered girls who have transitioned successfully.

While quite lovely, they are far from petite. Did it make their transition more difficult? Don't know. I do know they face a struggle with wardrobe choices and clothing availability but still do a great job.

Is society fixated on looks, beauty and sex? Absolutely, we live in a shallow time for the depth of character pond. It is what it is.

Good luck traveling the path you have chosen.

Hugs, Robin

[kimdl93]

Its hard to overlook physical appearance. Its the first impression, afterall. As a person who would qualify as taller and broader, I know I present a bit of a challenge to people's perceptions. I find that after talking with people and getting to know them, the discordant appearance is soon forgotten and people really do begin to judge me by the content of my character.

[AllieSF]

I agree with that and that it seems so unfair. Physically looking closer to a woman can only be a fortunate blessing when trying to live life in the opposite gender to which one is born. Over the long run there will probably be less mistakes made in using the correct pronouns, more tolerance and acceptance when even though one was not born in a woman's body, there is a close approximation when compared to your rugby player example. I think that the person making that comment was not trying to be disrespectful, but just stating a fact the way they saw it. Some people are dealt good cards and others get the not so good ones. No one is to blame, and yes, the one with the not so good cards may suffer more and may need to work harder to get where the one with the good cards started from.

Some people have great eye hand coordination and others only so-so, like me. I wish I was better at sports, but I am not. I wish I had that great memory that the other person has but I do not. I just have to make the best with what I have. There is always someone else worse off than me, so I have no right to complain about it.

[Sarah Beth]

I think you are right acceptance is based on looks but that holds true even for those who are not crossdressing or transitioning. How many people won't date people who are not what is considered atractive, well put together or whatever term you choose to use. Is it right, no, it isn't, but I imagine there are some on here who feel the same way. I have, since I was in high school, considered the person and not the looks. People are afraid of what others might think of them if they don't date the right person considering looks and proportions. Those people miss out on a lot and I think the divorce rate must be pretty high amongst those with egos that big.

[gonegirl]

Hi Amy,

I've had it come up a few times from close male friends when first telling them about me being female. Thankfully their choice of language wasn't as blatant as your friend, but was along the lines of you're lucky that you aren't built like a brick sh*thouse.

I've also had a close male friend half jokingly tell me that I'm going to need a hell of a lot of work to not look like an ugly woman. I know he was just nervous and trying to lighten up our conversation but it still really hurt. He immediately saw it and apologized.

Being TS causes people who know us well to sometimes react in ways that make us feel bad. When that happens I try to remind myself that it's not an easy thing for others to understand and to just be thankful for their support.

[Kathryn Martin]

I think that it is easier for people to imagine the end result of a transition once it is completed when you are fine boned not so tall and not a burly kind of person. I think this is why they say things like that. On the other hand it is incredibly difficult to transition if you have zero chance to just pass, not on passing a person in the mall but in taking a person to bed kind of level. Having a win in the genetic lottery certainly helps.

[Angela Campbell]

I find that after talking with people and getting to know them, the discordant appearance is soon forgotten and people really do begin to judge me by the content of my character.

Oh hell the content of MY character.....oh no .....I'm in trouble then


My son advise me not to grow breasts larger than his two sisters or they will be jealous.

[Rogina B]

I think that it is easier for people to imagine the end result of a transition once it is completed when you are fine boned not so tall and not a burly kind of person. I think this is why they say things like that. On the other hand it is incredibly difficult to transition if you have zero chance to just pass, not on passing a person in the mall but in taking a person to bed kind of level. Having a win in the genetic lottery certainly helps.
All of what you said may make finding" a happily ever after" much easier! So,what should the "big girls" or the "ugly girls" do? Any ideas?

[Kathryn Martin]

I am 6'2" so tall is my challenge. Passing is something that people need to work towards but realistically. The variety of women's shapes and sizes and heights might give clues to what can be done. For instance in my county there is a gene pool that has significant proportion of women who tend to be broad shouldered, slim hipped and built somewhat burly. Watch them how they cope and often turn what they have into an asset. Some of us need FFS, some of us need to learn to dress the body they have not the body they desire.

Passing is not prepositioned by a genetic lottery win. Have you ever looked the body of Cameron Diaz? She has no waist and no hips, she is as rectangular as I am. Yet she has is one of the beautiful people. How..... that is the question and your answers might lie there. It took me a while to realize for instance that wearing pencil skirts and fitted structured tops helped me emphasize what little waist I have. This is just and example. So often I TS women give up and opt for the jeans and t-shirt option. While taste may be something you bring with you, style can be learned and an individualized style to present what you have instead of what you don't helps a lot.

[LeaP]

I dropped into a local mall after work today and happened to walk out behind a tall trans woman - I would guess around 6'3" or so. She was passable in terms of features and was nicely casually dressed. But a nasty old lady pointed at her and yelled "that's a man"! The cue? Easy ... OMG did she walk like a man! And she seemed just a little self-conscious. (Perhaps she gets this a lot.) To her credit she completely ignored the old woman and just kept, well, lumbering along.

In a recently shut down thread Kathryn Socratically asked how it was that tough women and hard women are nonetheless perceived as women. To which I would add ugly women, women with male features, and tall lumbering women. None are misgendered. There is a lot about passing in the answer.

[Melissa Rose]

Unfair or not, right or wrong, we all are judged by our appearance in nearly all aspects of our lives. IMHO, the higher the number of male cues, the more difficult it is for many to see and accept a man who is/has transitioning/transitioned as a woman. Some cues carry more weight than others so it is more than just the number of cues from a standardized check list. Humans are very visual in nature and obtain a large amount of information from visual data. There are non visual cues also so it is the combination of all cues that influences acceptance or support level. The more woman content that is detected and sensed, the higher the level of acceptance and support.

[KellyJameson]

I have seen so much self destructive behavior in the trans community that someone who is transitioning but will not pass raises the concern of further depression, possibly leading to suicide.

There are certain unmistakable facial characteristics such as a large jaw that make passing difficult for some.

You want to be supportive but what happens if by doing this you help set the person up for fatal disappointment.

You want to help them escape their suffering but what happens if you inadvertantly add to their suffering.

Passing is further exacerbated if you have become very good at emulating men for survival because now you have to lose all those survival skills and start over and become what you would have if you had followed your natural course.

Many transsexuals go into extreme masculine behavior to fix themselves or to hide themselves or both.

It is like wearing a cloak of invisibility and for some could be difficult to learn how to shrug it off.

A life of pretending to be a man according to how you see men act can become a difficult habit to break and unfortunately it is very nuanced so difficult to see but others see it clearly.

Men move differently and take up space differently so passing based solely on appearance becomes even more important to overcome these life long habits.

In the end perhaps those transsexuals who have been tormented all their lives for not being men, acting like men or looking like men may have it easier.

The whole concept of being a man was so foreign and removed from possible consideration they gave up in childhood so did not learn false roles or aquire the habits that go with them.

Of course these are the transsexual who usually draw the most violence so no matter what path you are on there are consequences.

Pay now or pay later.

[Badtranny]

Transition is a hell of a thing.

My bestie told me after a couple of years in that she almost told me in the beginning to re-think it because I would never look like a woman. She says now that she's glad she didn't say anything because I've changed more than she could have ever imagined. My roomie at the time DID tell me to forget it because I was a big dude and I would look awful as a woman. There were a few other people who also indicated that I should probably not try to be a woman.

I'm not gonna lie, the first year was brutal. The second year was only slightly better.

Today, I have wandered into the rabbit hole. Now that I look the part, everybody EVERYBODY says I did the right thing. They all say they understand now, and I know for a fact that they are only understanding because NOW I look right. If I still looked like I did in the beginning I really doubt I would get so much support. Why do I think that? Because I didn't get any in the beginning.

Looks mean everything in transition. It's called passing privilege and you'll know it when you see it.

[Kimberly Kael]

We all know this world is obsessed with looks often to the detriment of society, but I find it disappointing to think that people might not be getting the support they need based on how they look. It's also a bit disturbing to think that some people who have been good to me might not have been had I looked different.

Do you think there's any truth to this?

I'd be shocked if there wasn't some correlation. Women are definitely subject to more appearance-based judgements than men, who aren't entirely immune to the effect themselves. So yes, it will be harder for a trans woman with obvious masculine characteristics to blend in, hold a job, etc. That fact won't be lost on friends and family who will have a hard time seeing how it will work. That may well lead to it being harder to get encouragement and support.

Not that looks are the only factor that can make transition easier or harder. Economic status plays a factor. As does the field of your career. So do the belief systems of friends and family. And so on, and so forth. The simple fact is it's a lot harder for some people than others, but strong people from all walks of life take a run at it and there are success stories out there.

[arbon]

Sadly there is a lot of truth to it. Looks matter a lot. People judge based on appearance.

In the first year + of transition people compared me a lot to the other TS woman that lives here, trying to be supportive of me people would say things like "well you look better then ***** " or "you look more like a woman then ***** " stuff like that. It bothered me a lot, and several times I confronted people about saying those sorts of things to me - it is sad, knowing that we are both judged so much (I have no doubt people were saying similar things to her about me) and all that crap.

[thechic]

I'm sad to say ,Yep id have to strongly agree with you, looks have big part in the quality of support .I've had several people say I would find it hard going out in public with you if you looked like a man dressed the way you do. especially at work.

[Ariamythe]

I'll echo the sentiment of the group and say that yes, acceptance and support is linked to passing. Most of the comments here are taking that to mean support from those outside the community, but I'd say that it's true of those inside the community as well.

Fair or not, we all know that transwomen are stereotyped and caricatured. As such, it's easy to be hyper-aware of the way OTHER transwomen pass or behave or present, because that gets viewed (again, not necessarily fairly) as reflecting on our own transitions. I haven't been in the trans community a long time, but long enough to see women get criticized and offered all sorts of "advice" on why they're not passing when they're large or have square jaws even though they're trying, while women who come from slight builds and softer features get praise just for getting out of bed and being trans. When a tall, lumbering, baritone transwoman is out and about, it's easy to cringe and think "She is not like me. Oh god, why isn't she trying harder? She's making us look bad!"

When I first came out to another transwoman, one of the first people I ever told, she said something to the effect of "I can't imagine you as a woman. Are you sure you want to do this?" She didn't say it in a mean way, but the implied message was there: maybe women who will have trouble passing should just endure the dysphoria. And when she first saw me en femme a few months later and her first comment was "You clean up well. I wasn't expecting that," I was both happy to be praised for my looks but also a little saddened by the backhanded comment.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

You will be judged...in the old days, they didn't let you transition unless you looked the part
..that's a hint of how misunderstood we were (and still are?)

People that support you will care a lot about your appearance, they will talk about it behind your back, and they will feel differently about supporting you depending on how you look...including being willing to be seen in public with you...
that's a generalization of course, not everyone will be this way..

[Rogina B]

[QUOTE=KellyJameson;3321995



Many transsexuals go into extreme masculine behavior to fix themselves or to hide themselves or both.








Of course these are the transsexual who usually draw the most violence so no matter what path you are on there are consequences.

Pay now or pay later.[/QUOTE]

The "military world" is now starting to realize that they may have more than a few TG combat veterans than they originally thought and "are starting to look at it"..A Navy shrink told me that recently...Times are changing! And times are changing rapidly for the young TG's in this country.National media discussion of TG issues has brought discussions in the schools and youth groups that are really leading toward better acceptance and policy changes. Most TG kids in the future will no longer fear "being labeled as different" because of what positive changes are happening today.

[Angela Campbell]

Everyone is judged on our looks. Men, woman, all of us. We are scrutinized moreso and are especially sensitive to it. The cisgender people have a time of it because many simply do not believe this is a real thing and not a fantasy. So we have a harder road than the GG would, but make no mistake they are judged by appearance and are very aware of it. I work very hard on my appearance and will probably never be satisfied, even though I am genetically lucky I have to work very hard. I am lucky because I didn't let the socialization effect me as much as some. Rather than go the ultra macho route I went the other way. I find the movements, walk, voice and many other things come quite naturally and with little effort. Some have to work much harder to get these things down but they are a major give away. It is hard to let go of the male habits and many are not even aware they are doing it. The girl Lea mentioned is probably not even aware of this as a give away and likely thinks she looks pretty good and cannot understand why she gets clocked.

[bas1985]

of course support is linked to looks, because it is by seeing us that the others see the result of the claim "I am a woman".

If you are a woman, they say, show it. If you cannot show it you are deceiving yourself.

It may be harsh and unfair, but that's it. But the good news is that for me passing and support relies for the most part
from eliminating the projection of the male. If you were "successful" as a male it will be difficult to be successful as a woman.

But this not depends on "beauty", usually the real beautiful people are androgynous, their body is not entirely male or female.

[Ann Louise]

"The heart conceals secrets, the mirror does not." author unknown

[Ariamythe]

If you are a woman, they say, show it. If you cannot show it you are deceiving yourself.

It may be harsh and unfair, but that's it.
I'm 6'4", broad-shouldered, with a large hands. These are things I cannot change and they will ALWAYS contribute to people "reading" me. Would you say that I should not try to transition? Or only that I need to get used to ridicule and scorn? I'm not clear exactly what your message is here. Why should support only come to the lucky and pretty?

[Kimberly Kael]

I'm 6'4", broad-shouldered, with a large hands. These are things I cannot change and they will ALWAYS contribute to people "reading" me. Would you say that I should not try to transition? Or only that I need to get used to ridicule and scorn? I'm not clear exactly what your message is here. Why should support only come to the lucky and pretty?

It isn't that support should come only to the lucky. It's that it comes much more readily, and to pretend otherwise is to ignore an unfortunate reality.

You will get extra scrutiny so you need a thicker skin. It doesn't mean that transitioning isn't possible or worthwhile for you, it's just harder than it should be. The good news? It's a lot easier than it would have been ten years ago. There are other examples of tall trans women, like Kimberly Reed who directed Prodigal Sons. I met three years ago at a screening for her film and she was positively delightful and seemed to have a good support network. There are also a lot more tall women (assigned female at birth) than there used to be. I have a dear friend who is 6'3" and she notices women taller than her with surprising frequency.

[LeaP]

Very few men truly look enough like a GG to get by the pre-transition "concerned comments." I certainly don't, even if I have a few things going for me. I can discount the comments of people who are familiar with me, as I suppose they would have the hardest time envisioning me otherwise, but I wonder about the comments of other trans people, given the transformations that I've seen. It seems that almost anything is possible.

That said, whatever might be possible, it's just as true that some don't, or can't seek that level of transformation. The only thing left at that point is attitude. The comments will continue, with some of these people happy and others not. There is a trans woman I know, now years post-transition, who still looks like the proverbial dude in a dress. Ripped, muscular physique with large forearms and very large hands, and with heavy, coarse male features. Yet she's happy, accepted where she works, and is just a lovely soul. Were that my situation, I believe I'd be risking what Kelly describes.

[Ann Louise]

Hey Ariamythe! Gosh, I have big hands, wide shoulders, and big feet, too. That won't change, but HRT is having a nice effect on my face, at least to my eye anyway. Looking at your avatar photo you have good reason to assume that it's doing that to you, too! I still get clocked, usually by elderly women (they're the worst! LOL), but as tgirlceleste put it, I'm clearly some kind of "feminine creature," none the less, and 99.9% of the time I'm treated with the courtesy and respect that women are usually accorded in our culture, anyway. Works for me! Ann

[stefan37]

I happen to be in that awkward stage at this point in my transition. I am out and about in my daily life. I have male physiology and get misgendered frequently. As I progress along I have found that people will gender me correctly even if they think otherwise. I attribute these recent occurrences to self confidence and attitude. I do not nor can I hide any longer. I have no choice but to go about my daily life and deal with whatever is thrown at me. We all have advantages and disadvantages.
The trick is to minimize the disadvantages and exploit our advantages. For the record I am not genetically gifted.

[Rianna Humble]

If you are a woman, they say, show it. If you cannot show it you are deceiving yourself.

I don't know which "they" you are quoting, but in the context of how support differs according to how attractive someone finds you, that quote is quite objectionable.

I may be fortunate in that I get a lot of support from members of the public despite the fact that I will never win a beauty contest, but why should I "show" anything to someone just to get acceptance?

I am a woman. That fact comes across to people in spite of my lack of comeliness and I get treated in consequence.

Professionally, the old me was successful - having an enviable reputation in numerous countries. I have not found anyone treating me worse professionally now that I have admitted to being a woman. Would that I could say the same thing politically.

[bas1985]

OK, let me reword the post.

"they" mean in general a friend, not so close, maybe a colleague, or a relative. They simply want
a "real life test" in front of them. Maybe from their point of view they are helping...

Regarding the people who start with some handicap for transition. I include also myself, obviously
at 40 y.o. my chances of passing as a GG will be very low, when I look at r/transpassing I see MtFs in their
20s which are close to perfection. But this is life.

But... my post wanted to give a hope message.

If you want to pass as female you have two options: to add F to your body, that is to enhance the
femininity, or simply you have to delete the male markers (walking, moving, gesturing, etc...).

Some are undoable... height, shoulders, etc... but can be overwhelmed by others... of course some
start with a bit of advantage, some less, but I think that in the long run what's more important
is the overall satisfaction and the acceptance by our peers.

[Ariamythe]

Hey Ariamythe! Gosh, I have big hands, wide shoulders, and big feet, too. That won't change, but HRT is having a nice effect on my face, at least to my eye anyway. Looking at your avatar photo you have good reason to assume that it's doing that to you, too!
Thank you :). I am cautiously optimistic about my eventual ability to pass. I was really just trying to use myself as an example to question the point. Also, you haven't seen my hands ... I have trouble finding MENS gloves that fit ....

[dunkelkreuz]

well as far as strangers are concerned, support will be linked to appearances. During my initial transition days, i have been outright turned down from finding a flat. Things sort of eased out when i sort of started passing more. Not going to use this as an argument against visibility and trans invisibility but this was just my personal experience.

[Amy A]

Thanks for the replies everyone. It's been really interesting.

I have so many thoughts about this whole thing. I wish we lived in a society where people could present however they wished and no-one would bat an eyelid. That's the ideal, the perfect world. But we don't live in that world and the truth is that we as a community are judged harshly by how we look.

Not that it's any different for women in general, but there's always that question of how well we pass as a woman. There's always the argument that how we might carry ourselves or how confident we are has a huge bearing on how well we come across, but lets be honest, there's only so much that movement or attitude can hide.

The truth is that I know, however much I don't want to believe it, that those same people who have offered unwavering support to me might have had a different reaction had I been less genetically 'blessed' (it certainly didn't feel like a blessing when I was getting beaten up at school!). People who pass or who eventually pass are the acceptable face of transgenderism. No one wants to see or consider the ones who don't. Just this week, Paris Lees was put at the top of the Independent's Pink List. Whilst I'm a huge fan of Paris and everything she's done for our community (and I base my opinion on her intelligence and writings), I'm not naive enough to think that her amazing looks haven't helped her become the figurehead she is today. If not helped, then definitely not hindered.

I've felt a genuine sigh of relief in rooms when I've entered them as Amy for the first time. I know that everyone in said rooms was hoping that I wouldn't look like a car crash. A friend of mine even admitted to being worried about seeing photos of me as Amy. Would they even have admitted that had the reality been disappointing?

Then there's the attitude of the trans community. When I see someone who really doesn't pass, my reaction depends on why I think they don't pass. For instance, if someone is well dressed, with good makeup etc, but is tall and broad, with big hands and masculine features, I will feel pity. That person has done their best with what hand life has dealt them. If society was more accepting of trans people that person wouldn't have a problem, but in our world they do.

What makes me feel bad is when I see someone who I feel has made all the wrong choices. I remember seeing a trans woman in Next. She was at least 50, yet she was dressed like a girl in her 20s. I'll admit, at that moment I felt shame that I was somehow linked to this person. I'm not proud of that particular emotional response, but I'd be surprised if many people on here hadn't felt the same at some point.

I'll be brutally honest; if when looking in the mirror I'd seen the proverbial man in a dress, with no chance of ever passing, my plan for the future might have been different. I'm not sure if that's a realistic view of society's prejudices or a reflection of my own.

Any kind of suggestion that there is any point at which people shouldn't transition deeply troubles me. At the end of the day I would rather that everyone lives exactly how they want to as who they want to. There may be varying amounts of difficulty in life but I guess it's up to the individual to decide how much c**p they can take.

In the meantime we can only hope that society can learn to accept trans people however they look, and that support is given regardless of potential 'passability'.

EDIT: I hope this doesn't come across like I think I'm the bees knees, because I'm not. I don't pass yet, there's just a chance I might one day in the future.

[Angela Campbell]

I can understand. I always thought it would be impossible for me to become what I always wanted to be. When I had my breakdown...that is the day I first dressed up completely with makeup and wig....and I saw a woman looking at me from the mirror, that is the moment that I knew not only that I could, but that I must. I really do not know whether I would have had the same breakdown that lead me to where I am now if I saw a man looking back. Perhaps I would have seen a woman no matter what I looked like, I really do not know. Either way I did and I'm glad I did.

[emma5410]

The bottom line is it is still unacceptable for people born male to dress as a woman. In a society where women are judged on appearance and most pictures in the media are photoshopped it is not surprising that MTF who look male are regarded as unacceptable. Society does not know if you are a TS struggling to be yourself or just some someone in drag.

The depressing thing is that family and friends seem to feel the same. If you are not passable then you are an embarrassment and they would rather not be seen with you. Of course you can not win. If you hit the genetic lottery or spend a fortune on surgery and are attractive you are accused of deceiving people by 'fooling' them.

People tend to ignore me when I am out. If I pass I do so as a 55 year old unattractive woman. That is fine by me. I would rather that than live as Brad Pitt.

One of the more encouraging moments in my RLE was when someone from work, who is very easily embarrassed, met me at lunchtime in a busy street and stopped to chat without appearing in any way embarrassed or self conscious.


Then there's the attitude of the trans community. When I see someone who really doesn't pass, my reaction depends on why I think they don't pass. For instance, if someone is well dressed, with good makeup etc, but is tall and broad, with big hands and masculine features, I will feel pity. That person has done their best with what hand life has dealt them. If society was more accepting of trans people that person wouldn't have a problem, but in our world they do.

What makes me feel bad is when I see someone who I feel has made all the wrong choices. I remember seeing a trans woman in Next. She was at least 50, yet she was dressed like a girl in her 20s. I'll admit, at that moment I felt shame that I was somehow linked to this person. I'm not proud of that particular emotional response, but I'd be surprised if many people on here hadn't felt the same at some point.

I'll be brutally honest; if when looking in the mirror I'd seen the proverbial man in a dress, with no chance of ever passing, my plan for the future might have been different. I'm not sure if that's a realistic view of society's prejudices or a reflection of my own.


Forgive me Amy but is not that a very similar attitude to the one we are discussing. I think we are just as guilty in our own way.

My earliest memories of other TS was back in the 70s. I saw two sensationalist newspaper stories. One was of a TS who looked like the proverbial man in a dress talking about how miserable her life was and the abuse she received walking down the street. At that point in my life I could not understand why someone would put themselves through that. The newspaper was using her as a freak show and was very unsympathetic.

The second was of someone who worked as a model and was beautiful. She had spent a large amount on cosmetic procedures. Of course the newspaper saw that as a kind of deception. It was not allowed to look that good and be born male. If I could have looked like her I would have transitioned in a moment however I felt I was more likely to look like a man in a dress and it just increased my terror of transitioning.

I am not sure why we should feel shame or pity when we see other transwomen who fail in some way. Did the TS in Next (a major UK women's fashion chain) look like a man in a dress or a woman dressed inappropriately? Either way I think your feeling of shame was wrong.

Women should be able to dress as they wish. I started off by dressing very conservatively at work. Worried that the women would criticise my choices. But it slowly dawned on me that some of them wear outfits I would not be seen dead in. Nowadays I dress in what I think looks good and I feel comfortable in. To hell with what they think.

l should have realised this quite early on when one of my sisters and nieces took me shopping to buy clothes for going full time. At one point my sister pulled a bright green skirt of the rack and suggested I try it on. I was aghast. It was horrendous. In all my life I have never seen her wear anything like that. Do not let other people's fashion choices dictate how you dress.

If you felt shame because she was TS that is just as wrong in my opinion. GG do not feel shame when they see another woman badly dressed. Why should you feel shame about another TS. You are not responsible for them.
I think feeling shame or pity for another is a little patronising. I am not responsible for other TS. I should offer support and friendship. I have no right to offer pity or shame.

[CassandraSmith]

I don't know but looks pretty much are a huge advantage in everything else so it would figure here too I would think?

[Kimberly Kael]

GG do not feel shame when they see another woman badly dressed.

Perhaps not, but many do feel superior under the circumstances, and many feel shame when they see a woman dressed provocatively. Why? Because women are as inundated with messages tying self-worth to appearance, and shame to sexuality. We tend to react emotionally according to our conditioning. Social conditioning regarding cross-dressing is no less effective.


I think feeling shame or pity for another is a little patronising.

It takes time and effort to overcome social conditioning. None of us start out free of its influence, so I think admitting to it is an important and powerful step toward dismantling those instincts. I'd rather hold someone accountable for their actions than their feelings. After all, I felt much the same the first time I met fellow travelers down this path. Five years later I think I've made a lot of progress but I'm still far from perfect.

[Chickhe]

I think the degree of comfort in people around you is based on the number of traits that work or not. You can be tall and broad and still look good. I think a lot is your attitude, you may have to accept a certain level of imperfection to be happy. I have seen many TS woman who give up trying to look good because they accept who they are to such a degree that appearance doesn't matter to them and for the most part people around them still support them. It is their attitude that wins people over. For most people who have no idea...they are thinking about the worst Hollywood movie and they just don't know what to say...they are trying to lighten the mood by telling a joke (but its usually a real fear that TG people have about not looking good...you just have to get over that, I think anyone can look good with the right practice).

[Amy A]

Emma: I certainly don't mean to be patronising, and perhaps pity was too strong a word, but I do naturally feel sorry for anyone who has a hard time through no fault of their own. They may not need my sympathy, and if that person is comfortable in their own skin and happy then I would be happy for them. These are strictly internal feelings, my gut reactions, and I don't vocalise them.

With the feeling if shame, like I said I'm really not proud of it, again it was just my gut reaction at the time. The lady in question looked and moved like a man in his daughters dress. She drew stares throughout the store. I felt shame because I had just the week before come out to the people I was with that day, and this woman was the first example of a trans person we'd come across since. You're absolutely right that I am in no way responsible for other ts women but we are a much smaller group than women in general so I think it's only human nature to feel a link to someone who's in the same boat do to speak.

Perhaps over time when I have less hang ups about my own presentation it'll become less of an issue for me.

But in considering all of this, I have to ask myself how I would react if one of my more masculine friends told me they were transitioning. If I thought they'd never pass, would I encourage them, or be a lot more cautious? I really don't know, and so it's wrong for me to be dissappointed in others when they tell me that their support is linked to my chances of success. Having said that, if that person decided they were definitely going to transition, I'd be there for them as much as they needed me, and give them all the help and support I could.

[emma5410]

Amy. I apologise for the tone of my post. It was not a criticism of you personally. In fact, I have felt similar feelings. It was actually this comment that struck me.


In the meantime we can only hope that society can learn to accept trans people however they look, and that support is given regardless of potential 'passability

Your post reminded me of how judgemental we can all still be, including me, even when we understand the situation. I am not sure wider society will ever let TS who do not pass very well go by unnoticed. Anything out of the ordinary draws people attention. It is not always meant nastily. It is just human nature. My sister told me about a TS she saw on a tram. She said she could not help looking because it was obviously a man. This was after I went full time.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I have felt a wide range of emotions about transsexual women I have met including envy, jealousy, admiration, pity and disgust.. yes disgust...

I met one person from our support group once for lunch and she was dressed like a color blind hooker...bad wig...too much make up...yuch... and I felt that feeling in the pit of my stomach...it was not right or wrong..it was the feeling she engendered in me..i can only imagine how a person who didn't know her pain would have felt....I felt pity...

another time I was in Arizona and one of the electrologists clients wanted to meet other transsexuals.. I will never forget going to the coffee shop and meeting the most delusional creature I have ever met..
she showed me picture after picture in various outfits...half of them were Disney related (her handbag had Minnie mouse on it)..she bragged about her passing 100% despite obvious dark beard stubble, hairy arms and gigantic purple press on nails
...she actually took her wig off for a moment to scratch her bald head...

I'm not judging her, i'm describing her......and being with her brought on feelings of shame and disgust..and the way she looked and the way she acted made me not want to meet her again.

In the end, your appearance will create a feeling...it is what it is...the good news is that no matter what (Even in the case of my crazy Disney meeting), if you are being yourself, and you are expressing who you are, then you are doing something that matters..
that's all you can do..

[Kathryn Martin]

It is interesting Amy, that you refer to the incident with the Trans person. The embarrassment that you felt and the embarrassment that non trans persons feel when being associated with what is perceived as a fantasy because of the non-conformance to cultural norms. Women and men are supposed to meet certain expectations both related to identification and general habitus. The issue is that presenting clearly in conflict between presentation and habitus, which is what you observed makes a caricature of something that is important to all of society.

The job trans people have to do is to overcome the caricature, and in this weird sense stop making fun of men (because they are wearing a dress and men don't do that unless within appropriate boundaries such as a kilts etc.) and women (because the disparity between presentation and habitus is not normal for a woman). And to do this job right we have to pass. Because we all come in all shapes and sizes (women and men) it is not about bodies or face shapes or the amount of muscle or fat. Passing is the ability to overcome the perception of either deceit or ridicule that embarrasses our social circles. This is in my view the reason why people will always want to SEE before they decide whether to support or not. One of the anchors of my transition was this: That my appearance would not distract from my work or my ability to socially interact. After I transitioned on April 1st, 2011, over a period of about four weeks (because most people I deal with I encountered within that time frame with a few long term stragglers) people were incredibly apprehensive until they saw me. You could see the: "phew, she looks ok, so I won't embarrass myself dealing with her". People entirely underestimate this aspect. Taking the view that you don't care what people might think in a professional and social environment may be a brave stance but an equally stupid one when it comes to transition. In making sure your appearance does not hit the "deceit or ridicule" bar you gain allies. For me the result was that people appreciated my appearance and saw no need to discuss or gossip which is the beginning of a stance so often taken that the transitioner has made a colossal error in judgement in doing so.

[Kimberly Kael]

The job trans people have to do is to overcome the caricature [...] And to do this job right we have to pass.

Therein lies an interesting conflict. The general public won't overcome their preconceptions when interacting with people they don't recognize as transgender in the first place. So those with passing privilege only make a difference in contexts where they're open about the trans history, and that's usually not the case when interacting with the general public. It's something of a Catch-22. The gay and lesbian community has made strides through friends, family, and co-workers who know and respect them so it's possible the same effect will work here, but we represent an even smaller segment of society which slows progress along those lines. Perhaps we should follow Harvey Milk's strategy and come out to people we would normally keep in the dark? I'm only certain about half of my staff knows I'm trans, but it's likely they all do. Should I have made a point of letting people know on National Coming Out Day?

I do think it's important to recognize that even those who cannot pass or choose not to even try can leave positive impressions. A fellow with a beard in a dress who is kind and considerate can change minds in a close community, so there are paths toward progress. The important thing is that we all do our part to rehabilitate the image of our community in our own way.

[Kathryn Martin]

Hi Kimberly:

I think that the operative part of what I was talking about is essentially this: " Passing is the ability to overcome the perception of either deceit or ridicule that embarrasses our social circles." People set unreasonable expectation of their own transition when the vaunted passing issue comes along. The context here is "support" and how you gain support in your professional, work and social circles. People soon enough figure out that you did not check your brain at the door of transition, unless of course you pull the victim card on them. Whether we like it or not people associate with those who don't appear to reflect badly on them. You don't need a trans context for that. I prefer not to associate with heroin and cocaine users, or people who kill others to use an extreme example. Likewise I prefer not to privately associate with 50 year old women who attempt to try and dress like a 17 year old. Doing that shows either a lack of taste, a lack of reality or a lack of judgement. I am happy for them to do whatever they want but I don't have to be part of it.

This is what happens when you transition and show up in fishnets and miniskirts at an age in which this is not so appropriate. You can do it but don't complain if it comes with certain social consequences.

The same is true in transition. Do whatever you like, I applaud and support you but don't expect support and acceptance from society at large. Some will give it but the majority won't. And since you are trying hard to make a new life for yourself (which is hard in the first place) choosing to battle this front just seems silly to me.

[Lilo]

First post ever. I think the reason women dont feel shame, pity or other feelings towards other 'ridiculously' dressed women is because there are millions of them and nothing to relate them. I have to admit that I also have felt shame when an inappropiately dressed TS appears on TV or other places and this is probably not right. Still, the feeling (justified or not) can be rationalized by considering how few TS there are. Thus, the comparison is inevitable. I would also feel shame or pity if one of my family members was the person that 'stood out'. This is because there is a clear connection. Still, I feel that all of these feelings have nothing to do with the person but rather our own insecurities. We need to accept that each is different and free to live in any way they want.

[Ceri Anne]

Of course, its easier to pass and therefore be accepted if your slim and attractive. Has always been that way in society and always will. That said, I have a number of friends who are built more solid and get along very well. Many of us are older, and actually for the average person, I think its easier to pass as older (dress age appropriate). All we can do, is try our best to love and support all our friends regardless of where they are on their journey, what they look like or how well they pass. After all, we all just want to be ourselves.

[Nicole Erin]

Yeah if you look good then people will take you more serious. That is no secret.
Even if you do not naturally pass worth a damn, you can still present your best. Dress respectful, keep the body hair in check, learn the meaning of "Daytime makeup" and start learning to carry yourself as a woman.

We all know that the lucky petite TS have it easier but consider this - Only a few TS out there look so God-awful that they have little to no chance of accepting or passing no matter what surgeries or how they dress.

So even if you are easily read, you can still be taken serious and be respected as a human and maybe even a woman if you do your honest best. I am built pretty large but I run into very few problems. In fact I get more compliments in a day than the number of insults I hear in a month.

Also with some friends or family accepting it - have you ever considered that the ones who do not accept it probably have more problems with you than just your presentation? Why bother trying to impress people you don't get along with well in the first place?

[LaurenB]

The silver lining is age, unfortunately or fortunately, depending on your outlook. Once you cross over the 50+ mark it becomes increasingly easier to pass. My wife would say that's because at that age you begin to become invisible and she's right to some extent. You also learn to adopt conservative and comfortable clothing options. Few post menopausal women wear provocative outfits. It's more about style and pride and the way you carry yourself.

Interestingly though, I was just laid over in Dallas-FW airport and had an opportunity to observe a large number of women from lot's of different places. There were a few that I thought were tall and square looking. Maybe they were, or maybe not. I felt good about that because no one else paid it a second mind.

I hope someday we are sought out in crowds to be the special ones. Creative and wise, we will be seen as the ones to find because we are unique and possess the ability to see things that others don't.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

It is interesting Amy, that you refer to the incident with the Trans person. The embarrassment that you felt and the embarrassment that non trans persons feel when being associated with what is perceived as a fantasy because of the non-conformance to cultural norms. Women and men are supposed to meet certain expectations both related to identification and general habitus. The issue is that presenting clearly in conflict between presentation and habitus, which is what you observed makes a caricature of something that is important to all of society.

The job trans people have to do is to overcome the caricature, and in this weird sense stop making fun of men (because they are wearing a dress and men don't do that unless within appropriate boundaries such as a kilts etc.) and women (because the disparity between presentation and habitus is not normal for a woman). And to do this job right we have to pass. Because we all come in all shapes and sizes (women and men) it is not about bodies or face shapes or the amount of muscle or fat. Passing is the ability to overcome the perception of either deceit or ridicule that embarrasses our social circles.

Emphasis mine...

this is a really good way to say it..

guess what, its on us as transsexuals to overcome what 99.995% people on earth KNOW to be true (ie that our existence is impossible)..... of course we know otherwise, of course its unfair to us... you simply must get over and then decide what to do about your transition and part of that is approaching your transition with the best chance to improve your quality of life..just like Kathryn did..

btw...that's what I did too...I was very focused on NOT showing myself to ANYONE until I felt that I would not freak them out... and when I did show myself I made sure that my choices in how I presented myself did not freak them out either..

I remember especially meeting my mother at Harrah's casino... she said she was hugely relieved and that she was PROUD!!! of how I carried myself with my head high... she told me she worried about how tall I was (6'2") and that I would be "slouchy"
that was a good day...

you all can have those days too..you just have to work hard to find what works for you..

Kimberly I think your distinction in how you act vs how you look is also important..
if there is a chip on your shoulder, you are only hurting yourself

[Megan72]

I kind of think that support, or acceptance is tied to a combination of appearance and having the appropriate attitude to go with the appearance. I know many genetic woman that are tall, broad shouldered, big hands what have you but no one ever thinks twice because they have a presence or attitude that matches them specifically. Not to say that appearance isnt a very important factor in initial impressions, it most certainly is, but to me confidence in yourself as a woman would play almost as much a role.
Megan

[Sallee]

unfortunately looks are linked to support and getting breaks in the world.

[Marleena]

Amy the general public for the most part doesn't understand us. Media portrayals and new stories are usually negative or sensationalism. The general public has no idea who is TS, CD, TG, or drag queens so we all get grouped together. Since the media is so negative in nature towards us people expect the worst and sometimes "we" play into their hands. That perception will be hard to change and the fight will continue. People seeing you as an attractive, well dressed lady was breaking stereotypes and they found it refreshing, you've done your part. We have no control over what others do or dress like but discussing this might help here anyways. As for us we have to work with what we have and present as best we can in public.

[Kathryn Martin]

unfortunately looks are linked to support and getting breaks in the world.

The point though is that this applies to everyone not just trans folks. So nothing to complain about there really.

[Kimberly Kael]

The point though is that this applies to everyone not just trans folks. So nothing to complain about there really.

That's one way to look at it. Alternatively, one might finally realize why others have been complaining all along, gain some empathy for an endemic problem, and do something to help improve matters. Thank goodness the status quo isn't set in stone.

[Kathryn Martin]

As I said above, you have to chose your battles. I found transition to be quite a chunk to chew on without having to worry about any political dimensions. In addition, it will be incredibly difficult to change peoples mind on this. Attraction and attractiveness are very visceral and largely determined by emotional reaction. And this is something that political correctness imposed by (I can't even think of how you would even do that because it cannot be regulated who you like, find attractive or believable) some external pressure.

[Kimberly Kael]

As I said above, you have to chose your battles.

No question. Trying to address all of the injustices in the world is a impossible challenge, so I agree that you need to set your sights on something more achievable.


In addition, it will be incredibly difficult to change peoples mind on this. Attraction and attractiveness are very visceral and largely determined by emotional reaction.

I'm pretty certain I don't have to be attracted to someone to support them, or give them a fair shot at an employment opportunity, or a dozen other examples explicitly related to the topic. That said, even changing the fact that we judge everyone by established societal standards is still hard to make headway against. Regardless, it doesn't hurt to acknowledge and join the voices already pointing out that this is a pervasive problem. Speaking up when someone makes a fat/ugly/whatever joke helps make a point that we will all benefit from in the long run, even though it won't change anything in the short term.

[Kathryn Martin]

Speaking up when someone makes a fat/ugly/whatever joke helps make a point that we will all benefit from in the long run, even though it won't change anything in the short term.

I agree with that completely.